Think the Paladin heals need a change? - Page 2

Karlen · 06-04-2006, 07:06 PM

>>>Running around 24members and try to find a body in the middle of a raid force takes too much time when you have to be right on top of them.<<<What would be nice would be a "run to" command, where you could target someone, press your /runto button, and you would run to stand on whoever you have targetted. Sort of like follow but you put you much closer.

Lairdragna · 06-04-2006, 07:45 PM

no need for a runto... just make it 10 meters and everything will be fine... and if people would click the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] window as soon as you cast... grrrrrr!

JNewby · 06-06-2006, 11:59 PM

fistofdeath wrote:

I am a lvl 50 pally and I noticed I rarely ever use our heals. I usually dont because one they are so weak for the amount of power they consume, and if there is a healer in the group there is no reason for them. We have only one good heal and that is only a self heal and has a long re-use timer.

I would like to see our self heal become either a group friend, or selected target heal, and the other two heals replaced. Either that or make them instant heals with the same recast timer especially if they consume so much power. Another idea I had was replace the group heal with a group ward. and make the target heal instant. That way when our group members are getting slaughtered cause of difficulty with aggro, we can throw the group ward up to try to gain aggro back.

I am mentioning this because I dont really use those heals at all and hate having wasted abilities that are rarely used or are so useless there is no purpose for them. Or change the group heal to a spell that heals group members for so much for so long when it by melee.

Pally's need a small revamp to compete with the shadownight, and for normal grouping and such. What I mentioned above would help alot I think. I dueled a lvl 43 SK when I was lvl 47 or 48 and he would own me unless I equipped my shield. But if he was same level as me, he would have owned me everytime, we need more wards or Heals over time to combat against there DoT's.

Just a suggestion. would like to hear what the more expierienced players have to say.

now yer jsut being a baby.. our pally on raids parses in the top 5 alot of times number 1 on heals.... in competiton with healer classes.. if you cant heal it seems you just arent trying to hard..

Mordant · 06-09-2006, 11:04 PM

As a soloer.....I literally couldn't live without em!

TorturedOne21 · 06-14-2006, 02:06 PM

I agree with that person who has been running around talking about the WoW pally. I find that my heals serve their purpose, and that's all I need. I would hate it if the only thing I have going for me is that I am a good healer. You would start getting DYFJ (Do Your F-ing Job!) shouts from people who know that the only thing a pally is good for is heals.

-I don't raid very often so I can't comment on raids.

-Group-wise, my heals are in case the healer gets preoccupied, and someone is about to bite it. I can jump in and after the fight I'll be getting pats on the back for saving several members of the group, possibly preventing a wipe. Or if someone dies and the healer is too busy trying to keep the MT alive, I can jump in with a rez and get that person back up and fighting again.

-Duo-wise, the heals are perfect. I can duo with a damage dealer or another tank and between the two of us, there is still some capacity for support elements. And two pallies duoing are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard to kill.

-soloing goes without saving. heals and wards are the only thing keeping me alive while I whittle my foe down. I still prefer soloing with my assassin, who can kill things in a matter of seconds, but if that mob ain't dead by then, my assassin's SOL. My pally, on the other hand, is his own back-up.

Pallys are a hybrid class, that is something I acknowledge. Guardians are better tanks, Templars are better healers. my role is to let the experts do their job, while I provide back-up and support. Although I'm not a [Removed for Content] about it, I usually find myself gravitating towards a leadership role, someone who people listen too, because rather than focusing on a singular task, I can provide a sort of overwatch, and help the group shift focus if need be.

I'm not bossy about it, I don't join the group saying "you guys should listen to every word I say because this is what I do." That just pisses people off. But by being someone who is everywhere he needs to be, people are more inclined to listen to what I have to say. Especially when it comes to tank/healer relations, from the tanks perspective that he always needs someone watching his back, and from the healers perspective that the tank needs to keep the mobs in front of his face. aggro management is a group process, some times people need to be reminded of it.

In conclusion, I am quite happy that my class is best geared for a leadership position. The advantage is immaterial so a lot of people don't know it's there. But hell, being a leader is what a paladin is all about, isn't it? I'll take that over better tanking or better healing any day.

Message Edited by TorturedOne21 on 06-14-2006 03:11 AM

Nurta · 06-14-2006, 03:22 PM

TorturedOne21 wrote:

I agree with that person who has been running around talking about the WoW pally. I find that my heals serve their purpose, and that's all I need. I would hate it if the only thing I have going for me is that I am a good healer. You would start getting DYFJ (Do Your F-ing Job!) shouts from people who know that the only thing a pally is good for is heals.

-I don't raid very often so I can't comment on raids.

-Group-wise, my heals are in case the healer gets preoccupied, and someone is about to bite it. I can jump in and after the fight I'll be getting pats on the back for saving several members of the group, possibly preventing a wipe. Or if someone dies and the healer is too busy trying to keep the MT alive, I can jump in with a rez and get that person back up and fighting again.

-Duo-wise, the heals are perfect. I can duo with a damage dealer or another tank and between the two of us, there is still some capacity for support elements. And two pallies duoing are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard to kill.

-soloing goes without saving. heals and wards are the only thing keeping me alive while I whittle my foe down. I still prefer soloing with my assassin, who can kill things in a matter of seconds, but if that mob ain't dead by then, my assassin's SOL. My pally, on the other hand, is his own back-up.

Pallys are a hybrid class, that is something I acknowledge. Guardians are better tanks, Templars are better healers. my role is to let the experts do their job, while I provide back-up and support. Although I'm not a [Removed for Content] about it, I usually find myself gravitating towards a leadership role, someone who people listen too, because rather than focusing on a singular task, I can provide a sort of overwatch, and help the group shift focus if need be.

I'm not bossy about it, I don't join the group saying "you guys should listen to every word I say because this is what I do." That just pisses people off. But by being someone who is everywhere he needs to be, people are more inclined to listen to what I have to say. Especially when it comes to tank/healer relations, from the tanks perspective that he always needs someone watching his back, and from the healers perspective that the tank needs to keep the mobs in front of his face. aggro management is a group process, some times people need to be reminded of it.

In conclusion, I am quite happy that my class is best geared for a leadership position. The advantage is immaterial so a lot of people don't know it's there. But hell, being a leader is what a paladin is all about, isn't it? I'll take that over better tanking or better healing any day.

Message Edited by TorturedOne21 on 06-14-2006 03:11 AM

Excellent post by the way. And I agree with nearly all that you said except the leadership stuff, I took a backseat to that since Sept of last year. Being a leader is not a product of class. Being a leader is within the person, some are better than others. SMILEY (that's a 50 DKP minus!!! hehe)

I'm very satisfied with my heals and I use them frequently. I don't raid much these days but I do group and duo and solo allot. They are doing just what I need them to actually with all of the changes over the past several months I'm finally growing quite comfy with my paladin. I've no desire to be anything like a SK and I do not want to heal like a priest class, though in a pinch I can help a healer out. To me, that is just where I need to be any more than that and I'm no longer a paladin.

England · 06-14-2006, 06:40 PM

All these posts above, especially Muppet's, remind me of my days in WoW with my Paladin which, I would like to forget. Conversely, I love the class here.

Message Edited by England on 06-14-2006 07:42 AM

ECDMupp · 06-14-2006, 09:02 PM

TorturedOne21 wrote:

I agree with that person who has been running around talking about the WoW pally. I find that my heals serve their purpose, and that's all I need. I would hate it if the only thing I have going for me is that I am a good healer. You would start getting DYFJ (Do Your F-ing Job!) shouts from people who know that the only thing a pally is good for is heals.

-I don't raid very often so I can't comment on raids.

-Group-wise, my heals are in case the healer gets preoccupied, and someone is about to bite it. I can jump in and after the fight I'll be getting pats on the back for saving several members of the group, possibly preventing a wipe. Or if someone dies and the healer is too busy trying to keep the MT alive, I can jump in with a rez and get that person back up and fighting again.

-Duo-wise, the heals are perfect. I can duo with a damage dealer or another tank and between the two of us, there is still some capacity for support elements. And two pallies duoing are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard to kill.

-soloing goes without saving. heals and wards are the only thing keeping me alive while I whittle my foe down. I still prefer soloing with my assassin, who can kill things in a matter of seconds, but if that mob ain't dead by then, my assassin's SOL. My pally, on the other hand, is his own back-up.

Pallys are a hybrid class, that is something I acknowledge. Guardians are better tanks, Templars are better healers. my role is to let the experts do their job, while I provide back-up and support. Although I'm not a [Removed for Content] about it, I usually find myself gravitating towards a leadership role, someone who people listen too, because rather than focusing on a singular task, I can provide a sort of overwatch, and help the group shift focus if need be.

I'm not bossy about it, I don't join the group saying "you guys should listen to every word I say because this is what I do." That just pisses people off. But by being someone who is everywhere he needs to be, people are more inclined to listen to what I have to say. Especially when it comes to tank/healer relations, from the tanks perspective that he always needs someone watching his back, and from the healers perspective that the tank needs to keep the mobs in front of his face. aggro management is a group process, some times people need to be reminded of it.

In conclusion, I am quite happy that my class is best geared for a leadership position. The advantage is immaterial so a lot of people don't know it's there. But hell, being a leader is what a paladin is all about, isn't it? I'll take that over better tanking or better healing any day.

I completely agree. Having a hybrid, and truly playing it well, means you have a wider perspective of the game, and puts you in a position where you're going to be able to help the group by being more of a battlefield commander type, while at the same time, you're able to throw your skills into where they're most needed, and most helpful. It's all about not being pidgeonholed.

ECDMupp · 06-14-2006, 09:05 PM

England wrote:
All these posts above, especially Muppet's, remind me of my days in WoW with my Paladin which, I would like to forget. Conversely, I love the class here.
Message Edited by England on 06-14-2006 07:42 AM
Message Edited by England on 06-14-2006 07:42 AM

AHHH! DYFJ!!

Anariale · 06-14-2006, 10:23 PM

My only 2 complaints about Paladin healing are:1) Casting Times2) Mana EfficiencyOur spells are pretty much carbon copies of Priest heals. The problem is, Priests have a larger power pool, and arent using taunts and CA's nonstop while having to also heal. Not to mention, Priests are not getting beat on while tanking mobs (unless solo, of course). Paladins run into a different set of problems than Priest classes do, and our spells are very poorly designed for a "Healing Tank".

Message Edited by Anariale on 06-14-2006 02:24 PM

ECDMupp · 06-14-2006, 10:30 PM

Anariale wrote:
My only 2 complaints about Paladin healing are:1) Casting Times2) Mana EfficiencyOur spells are pretty much carbon copies of Priest heals. The problem is, Priests have a larger power pool, and arent using taunts and CA's nonstop while having to also heal. Not to mention, Priests are not getting beat on while tanking mobs (unless solo, of course). Paladins run into a different set of problems than Priest classes do, and our spells are very poorly designed for a "Healing Tank".
Message Edited by Anariale on 06-14-2006 02:24 PM

We're not so much a "healing tank", but more of a "tank that can heal". I know that may seem like splitting hairs, but there's a big difference. A healing tank would be overpowered, since he would consequently tank as well as a guardian, mitigate damage better, and hold agro better because of his heals, as well as reducing the agro the priest class generates, by doing their job for them. It's not really within what we should be able to do, to heal at our maximum effectiveness, while tanking at our maximum effectiveness at the same time, and be able to do both, for as long as a priest class can only do one of the two. Our best healing should be done when we're not the ones doing the lion's share of the tanking. when we're backing up an MT, or otherwise dedicating ourselves more to our support aspect. It's there so we'll be useful as a the best of both worlds, not as all of both worlds.

Nurta · 06-15-2006, 04:40 PM

ECDMuppet wrote:

Anariale wrote:
My only 2 complaints about Paladin healing are:
1) Casting Times
2) Mana Efficiency

Our spells are pretty much carbon copies of Priest heals. The problem is, Priests have a larger power pool, and arent using taunts and CA's nonstop while having to also heal. Not to mention, Priests are not getting beat on while tanking mobs (unless solo, of course). Paladins run into a different set of problems than Priest classes do, and our spells are very poorly designed for a "Healing Tank".

Message Edited by Anariale on 06-14-2006 02:24 PM

We're not so much a "healing tank", but more of a "tank that can heal". I know that may seem like splitting hairs, but there's a big difference. A healing tank would be overpowered, since he would consequently tank as well as a guardian, mitigate damage better, and hold agro better because of his heals, as well as reducing the agro the priest class generates, by doing their job for them. It's not really within what we should be able to do, to heal at our maximum effectiveness, while tanking at our maximum effectiveness at the same time, and be able to do both, for as long as a priest class can only do one of the two.

Our best healing should be done when we're not the ones doing the lion's share of the tanking. when we're backing up an MT, or otherwise dedicating ourselves more to our support aspect. It's there so we'll be useful as a the best of both worlds, not as all of both worlds.

Very well said. And that is exactly how I see myself.

Anariale · 06-15-2006, 07:33 PM

I agree with you Muppet, but only if the Paladin is on par with Warriors when tanking, which we arent. Still, you're probably right, its best to focus on our tanking abilities and increase them rather than our healing abilities, as I think most Paladins rolled their class to tank, not to be heal/ress wenches.

demolition tank · 06-16-2006, 12:08 AM

I would like to see our cast heals and wards turnd into HoTs and reactives. Trying to cast heals and wards while getting slapped arround isn't practical.

Tazr · 06-16-2006, 12:50 AM

Unless im getting beat on by 5+ mobs, healing through damage is not an issue. Work on your focus SMILEY

Tazr · 06-16-2006, 12:52 AM

Just to iterate, Septimus at the end of HoF, went after the main healer on pull, killed him and then charged me. It was me and 3 dps only, no healer, I stayed alive the entire fight with just my own heals. I think that goes to show that you can heal yourself.

In a raid situation, you really shouldnt need to heal yourself, more lay on hands and divine aura =)

Anariale · 06-16-2006, 01:04 AM

Btw... I tank Vyemm and the Elemental Warder (not to mention many other mobs).HoF is really a cakewalk at this point.Personally, Im more interested in our healing / tanking abilities in a raid situation, rather than single group things... and contrary to the above poster... in raid situations, you really do need to heal yourself nonstop while tanking.

Message Edited by Anariale on 06-15-2006 05:06 PM

Message Edited by Anariale on 06-15-2006 05:19 PM

demolition tank · 06-16-2006, 07:24 AM

Tazric wrote:

Unless im getting beat on by 5+ mobs, healing through damage is not an issue. Work on your focus

Try getting hit by a brigadan, assasin and bruiser some time SMILEY

Our heals are not practical against any high stun / high damage classes. The DoT / Reactive system would be much more ideal for a class that is getting beat on constantlly.

Message Edited by demolition tank on 06-15-2006 08:26 PM

Zacb · 06-16-2006, 01:15 PM

demolition tank wrote:

Tazric wrote:

Unless im getting beat on by 5+ mobs, healing through damage is not an issue. Work on your focus

Try getting hit by a brigadan, assasin and bruiser some time

Our heals are not practical against any high stun / high damage classes. The DoT / Reactive system would be much more ideal for a class that is getting beat on constantlly.

Message Edited by demolition tank on 06-15-200608:26 PM

to comment on that you do have an array of stuns and knockbacks yourself... why not use one of those and then throw a ward at yourself afterwards? You can get almost all you want from the paladin, you just have to work for it more than regular healers. Giving us a Reactive heal or HoT heals would just be 2 overpowered if nothing was taken away from us.. we would be furies in plate. Healers heal better cause.. well thats all they do. We are a hybrid class meaning we can do a whole array of things. Just not as easy or as good as any of the very specialized classes do... but with dedication and focus we can do everything rather good...

Asking for better heals? thats just you being lazy (goes for all that want better heals) Paladins are gr8 the way they are and personally I never think when playing that we should get this and that.. I am very well pleased with what we have right now

Migoto 61 Paladin on RE

Wulfborne · 06-16-2006, 07:30 PM

Zacban wrote:

to comment on that you do have an array of stuns and knockbacks yourself... why not use one of those and then throw a ward at yourself afterwards?

Just a note... our stuns now last a max of 2.5 seconds. Lets assume you *can* land the stun on all of the mobs attacking you. Our wards are on a 3 second cast time. If the stars align, there is no lag, and no slight pause between the stun cast and the ward cast, those mobs (remember, there are more than one of them here, all with stun capability) have a window of opportunity to stun/stifle/interrupt your ward.

I don't think our heals and wards need to be made more powerful, personally. I sure as heck wouldn't fight a slight reduction in cast times for them, however. SMILEY

~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Champion of Drednever

Anariale · 06-16-2006, 10:11 PM

Well, just to make sure we are using the right numbers:Backlash - 1.5 second stunValourous Dash - 2.5 second stunExtinguish Will (Glorious Strike) - 2.0 second stunRighteous Demonstration (Glorious Strike) - 2.0 second stun << Not what Notes said it should beFervent Aid (ST Heal) - 2.0 second CTDevotion (ST Ward) - 2.0 second CTPrayer of Consecration (Group Heal) - 3.0 second CTReverent Sacrament (Self Heal) - 3.0 second CTMy whole point is that by reducing the CT on the heals, you do not increase the overall healing efficiency of Paladins, but tweak their abilities a hair to make them better able to cast heals while in combat.

Message Edited by Anariale on 06-16-2006 02:19 PM

OrcSlayer96 · 06-17-2006, 12:30 AM

Extinguish Will (Glorious Strike) - 2.0 second stun
Righteous Demonstration (Glorious Strike) - 2.0 second stun

These indeed need to be changed to 2.5 seconds to match the numbers that the devs said when a 4 second stun is changed to a 2.5 second stun.

Backlash - 1.5 second stun
Valourous Dash - 2.5 second stun

These are right on for the the new change in stuns and seem to work well.

Fervent Aid (ST Heal) - 2.0 second CT
Devotion (ST Ward) - 2.0 second CT
Prayer of Consecration (Group Heal) - 3.0 second CT

These spells seem to be inline with other healer spells on casting time and recast, the extra second on the group heal is a fair exchange for such a powrful group heal we can get with critical on a master 1 of this.

Reverent Sacrament (Self Heal) - 3.0 second CT

I love this spell when i can get it off before a interupt or fizzle, this spell really needs looked at on the casting time. The closest comparison to this spell is the brawler mend ability which i believe is on a 1 second cast time and a 90 second recast. I am still ok with having this set at a 5 minute recast/self heal/ requiring a devout essence/ medium power requirement. The part of the spell i am still greatly against is the casting time, especially with the changes on our stuns.

I have talked with various classes in the game and some of them seem to have their stuns work correctly before LU 24 and some were just as messed up as us. The way most(if not all) of our stuns worked before, we had the mob stun till somebody hit it, then it broke. In a solo fight we usually had the 4 sec stun because we were spending at least 2-3 seconds casting our ward or heal. With the max of a 2.5 sec stun and a self emergency heal that is 3 seconds, it makes this spell less stable than before. At the very least they need to make this a 2 second cast time on the sacrament, but i see no inbalance making it a 1 second cast time due to the current restrictions on it.

Jonaroth · 06-17-2006, 12:33 AM

Tazric wrote:

In a raid situation, you really shouldnt need to heal yourself, more lay on hands and divine aura =)

Like Anariale said, in a raid when I'm tanking, you should ALWAYS be healing, when I tank all I do is heal/ward and taunt really... I can't imagine a Paladin tank actually tanking any serious named mob other than trash named in Labs without healing himself.

Tazr · 06-17-2006, 10:09 PM

I dont heal myself nearly as much when tanking as I do off tanking. And I have tanked named in labs, so imagine on SMILEY

Majorminor · 06-18-2006, 02:51 AM

I ward and heal myself, Not so much because the healers can't keep up, but it just hads that much more hate to me /shrug. Along with hitting thing's it's another tool we have to use.

ECDMupp · 06-19-2006, 11:01 PM

Majorminor wrote:
I ward and heal myself, Not so much because the healers can't keep up, but it just hads that much more hate to me /shrug. Along with hitting thing's it's another tool we have to use.

This is very true. Our healing and wards are almost like an extra Amends line for our healers, since we're taking away the need for them to generate hate healing us, and generating the hate ourselves. I was MT'ing a perma group last night as at 44 (dinged 45 in the process! WOOT!), and spent just about all the time i had throwing heals, wards, and taunts, with very few direct damage CA's or spells thrown in. My healer was pretty bored until we started fighting orange heroics, but he never got agro, either. :smileyhappy:

Porfirio · 06-20-2006, 01:47 PM

Even before the stun nerf, this is what I would like to see changed in regards to our heals.Lower single heal, ward, group heal by 1 second casting time but increase recast time by 1 second. So overall nothing really changes but we get them off a bit faster.The sacrament line I thought was about perfect before DoF, but it needed an increase in hp healed. Its already got a long reuse, reageant, self only going against it, I don't think it needs the high power cost as well. Would like to see that lowered.

OrcSlayer96 · 06-20-2006, 09:58 PM

Porfirio wrote:
Even before the stun nerf, this is what I would like to see changed in regards to our heals.

Lower single heal, ward, group heal by 1 second casting time but increase recast time by 1 second. So overall nothing really changes but we get them off a bit faster.

The sacrament line I thought was about perfect before DoF, but it needed an increase in hp healed. Its already got a long reuse, reageant, self only going against it, I don't think it needs the high power cost as well. Would like to see that lowered.

The power cost per hit point healed on sacrament is our most efficent heal spell, compare it to single and group target geals and you will see that the numbers support it. At first i too thought it was overpriced on the power cost, but if you have it at adept 3 or master 1 you will see that it is a bargain on power to health ratio. I would still only change the casting time to either 2 seconds or 1 second on it. The single heal,ward, group heal are exact matches on casting time versus other healer classes and probably will not change. The Sacrament line is the only oddball spell with it's casting time much longer than brawler's mend ability.

Porfirio · 06-20-2006, 10:43 PM

Our self heal should be the most efficient, like I said it's got so many things against it, I think one of them could be eased up.I also meant to include it in the over all reduction of our heals cast time by 1 second. They are on par with other healers, but we aren't healers. I don't know, just seems to make sense to me that a holy knight would be able to cast live saving spells faster but have to wait longer before using them again, that should be our little quirk with heals being a paladin. If the devs feel they are balanced as is, then taking that second off the cast time and adding it to the recast isn't changing our healing per second.

OrcSlayer96 · 06-20-2006, 11:31 PM

Porfirio wrote:
Our self heal should be the most efficient, like I said it's got so many things against it, I think one of them could be eased up.

I also meant to include it in the over all reduction of our heals cast time by 1 second. They are on par with other healers, but we aren't healers. I don't know, just seems to make sense to me that a holy knight would be able to cast live saving spells faster but have to wait longer before using them again, that should be our little quirk with heals being a paladin. If the devs feel they are balanced as is, then taking that second off the cast time and adding it to the recast isn't changing our healing per second.

Like you said, we are not healers, if we have a quicker casting time on our tragetted heals than any other healers, what will that make them do? I would rather have a in game ability that virtually eliminated our fizzle and interrupt rates than have a quicker casting time on our heals. Our heals are only one aspect of us, i rely just as much if not more on my stuns and other utilities. We start becoming quicker on casting heals than healers, we will be permentally pidgeon holed to only heal, and if i wanted that i would go to WOW... SMILEY

I understand your idea that because we are in combat we should have quicker heals, but i believe our hammer ground aa and our other list of stuns helps us enough. The only oddball is our sacrament that for a self heal that use to be 1 second pre LU 13 has lost some use at its 3 second casting time. If you want a quicker casting time on the other heals, then the other healers out there need the same reduction to casting time to be fair to all.

06-06-2006, 11:59 PM	#33
JNewby Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 644	fistofdeath wrote: I am a lvl 50 pally and I noticed I rarely ever use our heals. I usually dont because one they are so weak for the amount of power they consume, and if there is a healer in the group there is no reason for them. We have only one good heal and that is only a self heal and has a long re-use timer. I would like to see our self heal become either a group friend, or selected target heal, and the other two heals replaced. Either that or make them instant heals with the same recast timer especially if they consume so much power. Another idea I had was replace the group heal with a group ward. and make the target heal instant. That way when our group members are getting slaughtered cause of difficulty with aggro, we can throw the group ward up to try to gain aggro back. I am mentioning this because I dont really use those heals at all and hate having wasted abilities that are rarely used or are so useless there is no purpose for them. Or change the group heal to a spell that heals group members for so much for so long when it by melee. Pally's need a small revamp to compete with the shadownight, and for normal grouping and such. What I mentioned above would help alot I think. I dueled a lvl 43 SK when I was lvl 47 or 48 and he would own me unless I equipped my shield. But if he was same level as me, he would have owned me everytime, we need more wards or Heals over time to combat against there DoT's. Just a suggestion. would like to hear what the more expierienced players have to say. now yer jsut being a baby.. our pally on raids parses in the top 5 alot of times number 1 on heals.... in competiton with healer classes.. if you cant heal it seems you just arent trying to hard..

06-14-2006, 03:22 PM	#36
Nurta Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Living in York, PA Posts: 185	TorturedOne21 wrote: I agree with that person who has been running around talking about the WoW pally. I find that my heals serve their purpose, and that's all I need. I would hate it if the only thing I have going for me is that I am a good healer. You would start getting DYFJ (Do Your F-ing Job!) shouts from people who know that the only thing a pally is good for is heals. -I don't raid very often so I can't comment on raids. -Group-wise, my heals are in case the healer gets preoccupied, and someone is about to bite it. I can jump in and after the fight I'll be getting pats on the back for saving several members of the group, possibly preventing a wipe. Or if someone dies and the healer is too busy trying to keep the MT alive, I can jump in with a rez and get that person back up and fighting again. -Duo-wise, the heals are perfect. I can duo with a damage dealer or another tank and between the two of us, there is still some capacity for support elements. And two pallies duoing are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard to kill. -soloing goes without saving. heals and wards are the only thing keeping me alive while I whittle my foe down. I still prefer soloing with my assassin, who can kill things in a matter of seconds, but if that mob ain't dead by then, my assassin's SOL. My pally, on the other hand, is his own back-up. Pallys are a hybrid class, that is something I acknowledge. Guardians are better tanks, Templars are better healers. my role is to let the experts do their job, while I provide back-up and support. Although I'm not a [Removed for Content] about it, I usually find myself gravitating towards a leadership role, someone who people listen too, because rather than focusing on a singular task, I can provide a sort of overwatch, and help the group shift focus if need be. I'm not bossy about it, I don't join the group saying "you guys should listen to every word I say because this is what I do." That just pisses people off. But by being someone who is everywhere he needs to be, people are more inclined to listen to what I have to say. Especially when it comes to tank/healer relations, from the tanks perspective that he always needs someone watching his back, and from the healers perspective that the tank needs to keep the mobs in front of his face. aggro management is a group process, some times people need to be reminded of it. In conclusion, I am quite happy that my class is best geared for a leadership position. The advantage is immaterial so a lot of people don't know it's there. But hell, being a leader is what a paladin is all about, isn't it? I'll take that over better tanking or better healing any day. Message Edited by TorturedOne21 on 06-14-2006 03:11 AM Excellent post by the way. And I agree with nearly all that you said except the leadership stuff, I took a backseat to that since Sept of last year. Being a leader is not a product of class. Being a leader is within the person, some are better than others. (that's a 50 DKP minus!!! hehe) I'm very satisfied with my heals and I use them frequently. I don't raid much these days but I do group and duo and solo allot. They are doing just what I need them to actually with all of the changes over the past several months I'm finally growing quite comfy with my paladin. I've no desire to be anything like a SK and I do not want to heal like a priest class, though in a pinch I can help a healer out. To me, that is just where I need to be any more than that and I'm no longer a paladin.

06-14-2006, 06:40 PM	#37
England Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 38	All these posts above, especially Muppet's, remind me of my days in WoW with my Paladin which, I would like to forget. Conversely, I love the class here. Message Edited by England on 06-14-2006 07:42 AM Message Edited by England on 06-14-2006 07:42 AM

06-14-2006, 09:02 PM	#38
ECDMupp Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 99	TorturedOne21 wrote: I agree with that person who has been running around talking about the WoW pally. I find that my heals serve their purpose, and that's all I need. I would hate it if the only thing I have going for me is that I am a good healer. You would start getting DYFJ (Do Your F-ing Job!) shouts from people who know that the only thing a pally is good for is heals. -I don't raid very often so I can't comment on raids. -Group-wise, my heals are in case the healer gets preoccupied, and someone is about to bite it. I can jump in and after the fight I'll be getting pats on the back for saving several members of the group, possibly preventing a wipe. Or if someone dies and the healer is too busy trying to keep the MT alive, I can jump in with a rez and get that person back up and fighting again. -Duo-wise, the heals are perfect. I can duo with a damage dealer or another tank and between the two of us, there is still some capacity for support elements. And two pallies duoing are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard to kill. -soloing goes without saving. heals and wards are the only thing keeping me alive while I whittle my foe down. I still prefer soloing with my assassin, who can kill things in a matter of seconds, but if that mob ain't dead by then, my assassin's SOL. My pally, on the other hand, is his own back-up. Pallys are a hybrid class, that is something I acknowledge. Guardians are better tanks, Templars are better healers. my role is to let the experts do their job, while I provide back-up and support. Although I'm not a [Removed for Content] about it, I usually find myself gravitating towards a leadership role, someone who people listen too, because rather than focusing on a singular task, I can provide a sort of overwatch, and help the group shift focus if need be. I'm not bossy about it, I don't join the group saying "you guys should listen to every word I say because this is what I do." That just pisses people off. But by being someone who is everywhere he needs to be, people are more inclined to listen to what I have to say. Especially when it comes to tank/healer relations, from the tanks perspective that he always needs someone watching his back, and from the healers perspective that the tank needs to keep the mobs in front of his face. aggro management is a group process, some times people need to be reminded of it. In conclusion, I am quite happy that my class is best geared for a leadership position. The advantage is immaterial so a lot of people don't know it's there. But hell, being a leader is what a paladin is all about, isn't it? I'll take that over better tanking or better healing any day. I completely agree. Having a hybrid, and truly playing it well, means you have a wider perspective of the game, and puts you in a position where you're going to be able to help the group by being more of a battlefield commander type, while at the same time, you're able to throw your skills into where they're most needed, and most helpful. It's all about not being pidgeonholed. __________________ Throgg

06-14-2006, 09:05 PM	#39
ECDMupp Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 99	England wrote: All these posts above, especially Muppet's, remind me of my days in WoW with my Paladin which, I would like to forget. Conversely, I love the class here. Message Edited by England on 06-14-2006 07:42 AM Message Edited by England on 06-14-2006 07:42 AM AHHH! DYFJ!! __________________ Throgg

06-04-2006, 07:06 PM	#31
Karlen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,513	>>>Running around 24members and try to find a body in the middle of a raid force takes too much time when you have to be right on top of them.<<<What would be nice would be a "run to" command, where you could target someone, press your /runto button, and you would run to stand on whoever you have targetted. Sort of like follow but you put you much closer.

06-04-2006, 07:45 PM	#32
Lairdragna Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 543	no need for a runto... just make it 10 meters and everything will be fine... and if people would click the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] window as soon as you cast... grrrrrr!

06-09-2006, 11:04 PM	#34
Mordant Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 4	As a soloer.....I literally couldn't live without em!

06-14-2006, 02:06 PM	#35
TorturedOne21 Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 43	I agree with that person who has been running around talking about the WoW pally. I find that my heals serve their purpose, and that's all I need. I would hate it if the only thing I have going for me is that I am a good healer. You would start getting DYFJ (Do Your F-ing Job!) shouts from people who know that the only thing a pally is good for is heals. -I don't raid very often so I can't comment on raids. -Group-wise, my heals are in case the healer gets preoccupied, and someone is about to bite it. I can jump in and after the fight I'll be getting pats on the back for saving several members of the group, possibly preventing a wipe. Or if someone dies and the healer is too busy trying to keep the MT alive, I can jump in with a rez and get that person back up and fighting again. -Duo-wise, the heals are perfect. I can duo with a damage dealer or another tank and between the two of us, there is still some capacity for support elements. And two pallies duoing are [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard to kill. -soloing goes without saving. heals and wards are the only thing keeping me alive while I whittle my foe down. I still prefer soloing with my assassin, who can kill things in a matter of seconds, but if that mob ain't dead by then, my assassin's SOL. My pally, on the other hand, is his own back-up. Pallys are a hybrid class, that is something I acknowledge. Guardians are better tanks, Templars are better healers. my role is to let the experts do their job, while I provide back-up and support. Although I'm not a [Removed for Content] about it, I usually find myself gravitating towards a leadership role, someone who people listen too, because rather than focusing on a singular task, I can provide a sort of overwatch, and help the group shift focus if need be. I'm not bossy about it, I don't join the group saying "you guys should listen to every word I say because this is what I do." That just pisses people off. But by being someone who is everywhere he needs to be, people are more inclined to listen to what I have to say. Especially when it comes to tank/healer relations, from the tanks perspective that he always needs someone watching his back, and from the healers perspective that the tank needs to keep the mobs in front of his face. aggro management is a group process, some times people need to be reminded of it. In conclusion, I am quite happy that my class is best geared for a leadership position. The advantage is immaterial so a lot of people don't know it's there. But hell, being a leader is what a paladin is all about, isn't it? I'll take that over better tanking or better healing any day. Message Edited by TorturedOne21 on 06-14-2006 03:11 AM

06-14-2006, 10:23 PM	#40
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	My only 2 complaints about Paladin healing are:1) Casting Times2) Mana EfficiencyOur spells are pretty much carbon copies of Priest heals. The problem is, Priests have a larger power pool, and arent using taunts and CA's nonstop while having to also heal. Not to mention, Priests are not getting beat on while tanking mobs (unless solo, of course). Paladins run into a different set of problems than Priest classes do, and our spells are very poorly designed for a "Healing Tank". Message Edited by Anariale on 06-14-2006 02:24 PM __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

06-14-2006, 10:30 PM	#41
ECDMupp Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 99	Anariale wrote: My only 2 complaints about Paladin healing are:1) Casting Times2) Mana EfficiencyOur spells are pretty much carbon copies of Priest heals. The problem is, Priests have a larger power pool, and arent using taunts and CA's nonstop while having to also heal. Not to mention, Priests are not getting beat on while tanking mobs (unless solo, of course). Paladins run into a different set of problems than Priest classes do, and our spells are very poorly designed for a "Healing Tank". Message Edited by Anariale on 06-14-2006 02:24 PM We're not so much a "healing tank", but more of a "tank that can heal". I know that may seem like splitting hairs, but there's a big difference. A healing tank would be overpowered, since he would consequently tank as well as a guardian, mitigate damage better, and hold agro better because of his heals, as well as reducing the agro the priest class generates, by doing their job for them. It's not really within what we should be able to do, to heal at our maximum effectiveness, while tanking at our maximum effectiveness at the same time, and be able to do both, for as long as a priest class can only do one of the two. Our best healing should be done when we're not the ones doing the lion's share of the tanking. when we're backing up an MT, or otherwise dedicating ourselves more to our support aspect. It's there so we'll be useful as a the best of both worlds, not as all of both worlds. __________________ Throgg

06-15-2006, 04:40 PM	#42
Nurta Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Living in York, PA Posts: 185	ECDMuppet wrote: Anariale wrote: My only 2 complaints about Paladin healing are: 1) Casting Times 2) Mana Efficiency Our spells are pretty much carbon copies of Priest heals. The problem is, Priests have a larger power pool, and arent using taunts and CA's nonstop while having to also heal. Not to mention, Priests are not getting beat on while tanking mobs (unless solo, of course). Paladins run into a different set of problems than Priest classes do, and our spells are very poorly designed for a "Healing Tank". Message Edited by Anariale on 06-14-2006 02:24 PM We're not so much a "healing tank", but more of a "tank that can heal". I know that may seem like splitting hairs, but there's a big difference. A healing tank would be overpowered, since he would consequently tank as well as a guardian, mitigate damage better, and hold agro better because of his heals, as well as reducing the agro the priest class generates, by doing their job for them. It's not really within what we should be able to do, to heal at our maximum effectiveness, while tanking at our maximum effectiveness at the same time, and be able to do both, for as long as a priest class can only do one of the two. Our best healing should be done when we're not the ones doing the lion's share of the tanking. when we're backing up an MT, or otherwise dedicating ourselves more to our support aspect. It's there so we'll be useful as a the best of both worlds, not as all of both worlds. Very well said. And that is exactly how I see myself.

06-15-2006, 07:33 PM	#43
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	I agree with you Muppet, but only if the Paladin is on par with Warriors when tanking, which we arent. Still, you're probably right, its best to focus on our tanking abilities and increase them rather than our healing abilities, as I think most Paladins rolled their class to tank, not to be heal/ress wenches. __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

06-16-2006, 12:08 AM	#44
demolition tank Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 99	I would like to see our cast heals and wards turnd into HoTs and reactives. Trying to cast heals and wards while getting slapped arround isn't practical.

06-16-2006, 12:50 AM	#45
Tazr General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Today California, Tommorrow Neveda, next week washington. Posts: 177	Unless im getting beat on by 5+ mobs, healing through damage is not an issue. Work on your focus

06-16-2006, 12:52 AM	#46
Tazr General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Today California, Tommorrow Neveda, next week washington. Posts: 177	Just to iterate, Septimus at the end of HoF, went after the main healer on pull, killed him and then charged me. It was me and 3 dps only, no healer, I stayed alive the entire fight with just my own heals. I think that goes to show that you can heal yourself. In a raid situation, you really shouldnt need to heal yourself, more lay on hands and divine aura =)

06-16-2006, 01:04 AM	#47
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	Btw... I tank Vyemm and the Elemental Warder (not to mention many other mobs).HoF is really a cakewalk at this point.Personally, Im more interested in our healing / tanking abilities in a raid situation, rather than single group things... and contrary to the above poster... in raid situations, you really do need to heal yourself nonstop while tanking. Message Edited by Anariale on 06-15-2006 05:06 PM Message Edited by Anariale on 06-15-2006 05:19 PM __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

06-16-2006, 07:24 AM	#48
demolition tank Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 99	Tazric wrote: Unless im getting beat on by 5+ mobs, healing through damage is not an issue. Work on your focus Try getting hit by a brigadan, assasin and bruiser some time Our heals are not practical against any high stun / high damage classes. The DoT / Reactive system would be much more ideal for a class that is getting beat on constantlly. Message Edited by demolition tank on 06-15-2006 08:26 PM

06-16-2006, 01:15 PM	#49
Zacb Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1	demolition tank wrote: Tazric wrote: Unless im getting beat on by 5+ mobs, healing through damage is not an issue. Work on your focus Try getting hit by a brigadan, assasin and bruiser some time Our heals are not practical against any high stun / high damage classes. The DoT / Reactive system would be much more ideal for a class that is getting beat on constantlly. Message Edited by demolition tank on 06-15-200608:26 PM to comment on that you do have an array of stuns and knockbacks yourself... why not use one of those and then throw a ward at yourself afterwards? You can get almost all you want from the paladin, you just have to work for it more than regular healers. Giving us a Reactive heal or HoT heals would just be 2 overpowered if nothing was taken away from us.. we would be furies in plate. Healers heal better cause.. well thats all they do. We are a hybrid class meaning we can do a whole array of things. Just not as easy or as good as any of the very specialized classes do... but with dedication and focus we can do everything rather good... Asking for better heals? thats just you being lazy (goes for all that want better heals) Paladins are gr8 the way they are and personally I never think when playing that we should get this and that.. I am very well pleased with what we have right now Migoto 61 Paladin on RE

06-16-2006, 07:30 PM	#50
Wulfborne Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 596	Zacban wrote: to comment on that you do have an array of stuns and knockbacks yourself... why not use one of those and then throw a ward at yourself afterwards? Just a note... our stuns now last a max of 2.5 seconds. Lets assume you can land the stun on all of the mobs attacking you. Our wards are on a 3 second cast time. If the stars align, there is no lag, and no slight pause between the stun cast and the ward cast, those mobs (remember, there are more than one of them here, all with stun capability) have a window of opportunity to stun/stifle/interrupt your ward. I don't think our heals and wards need to be made more powerful, personally. I sure as heck wouldn't fight a slight reduction in cast times for them, however. ~Sir Hawke Holyblayde, Champion of Drednever __________________

06-16-2006, 10:11 PM	#51
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	Well, just to make sure we are using the right numbers:Backlash - 1.5 second stunValourous Dash - 2.5 second stunExtinguish Will (Glorious Strike) - 2.0 second stunRighteous Demonstration (Glorious Strike) - 2.0 second stun << Not what Notes said it should beFervent Aid (ST Heal) - 2.0 second CTDevotion (ST Ward) - 2.0 second CTPrayer of Consecration (Group Heal) - 3.0 second CTReverent Sacrament (Self Heal) - 3.0 second CTMy whole point is that by reducing the CT on the heals, you do not increase the overall healing efficiency of Paladins, but tweak their abilities a hair to make them better able to cast heals while in combat. Message Edited by Anariale on 06-16-2006 02:19 PM __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

06-17-2006, 12:30 AM	#52
OrcSlayer96 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 794	Extinguish Will (Glorious Strike) - 2.0 second stun Righteous Demonstration (Glorious Strike) - 2.0 second stun These indeed need to be changed to 2.5 seconds to match the numbers that the devs said when a 4 second stun is changed to a 2.5 second stun. Backlash - 1.5 second stun Valourous Dash - 2.5 second stun These are right on for the the new change in stuns and seem to work well. Fervent Aid (ST Heal) - 2.0 second CT Devotion (ST Ward) - 2.0 second CT Prayer of Consecration (Group Heal) - 3.0 second CT These spells seem to be inline with other healer spells on casting time and recast, the extra second on the group heal is a fair exchange for such a powrful group heal we can get with critical on a master 1 of this. Reverent Sacrament (Self Heal) - 3.0 second CT I love this spell when i can get it off before a interupt or fizzle, this spell really needs looked at on the casting time. The closest comparison to this spell is the brawler mend ability which i believe is on a 1 second cast time and a 90 second recast. I am still ok with having this set at a 5 minute recast/self heal/ requiring a devout essence/ medium power requirement. The part of the spell i am still greatly against is the casting time, especially with the changes on our stuns. I have talked with various classes in the game and some of them seem to have their stuns work correctly before LU 24 and some were just as messed up as us. The way most(if not all) of our stuns worked before, we had the mob stun till somebody hit it, then it broke. In a solo fight we usually had the 4 sec stun because we were spending at least 2-3 seconds casting our ward or heal. With the max of a 2.5 sec stun and a self emergency heal that is 3 seconds, it makes this spell less stable than before. At the very least they need to make this a 2 second cast time on the sacrament, but i see no inbalance making it a 1 second cast time due to the current restrictions on it.

06-17-2006, 12:33 AM	#53
Jonaroth Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Newport Beach, CA Posts: 761	Tazric wrote: In a raid situation, you really shouldnt need to heal yourself, more lay on hands and divine aura =) Like Anariale said, in a raid when I'm tanking, you should ALWAYS be healing, when I tank all I do is heal/ward and taunt really... I can't imagine a Paladin tank actually tanking any serious named mob other than trash named in Labs without healing himself. __________________

06-17-2006, 10:09 PM	#54
Tazr General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Today California, Tommorrow Neveda, next week washington. Posts: 177	I dont heal myself nearly as much when tanking as I do off tanking. And I have tanked named in labs, so imagine on

06-18-2006, 02:51 AM	#55
Majorminor Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 372	I ward and heal myself, Not so much because the healers can't keep up, but it just hads that much more hate to me /shrug. Along with hitting thing's it's another tool we have to use. __________________

06-19-2006, 11:01 PM	#56
ECDMupp Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 99	Majorminor wrote: I ward and heal myself, Not so much because the healers can't keep up, but it just hads that much more hate to me /shrug. Along with hitting thing's it's another tool we have to use. This is very true. Our healing and wards are almost like an extra Amends line for our healers, since we're taking away the need for them to generate hate healing us, and generating the hate ourselves. I was MT'ing a perma group last night as at 44 (dinged 45 in the process! WOOT!), and spent just about all the time i had throwing heals, wards, and taunts, with very few direct damage CA's or spells thrown in. My healer was pretty bored until we started fighting orange heroics, but he never got agro, either. :smileyhappy: __________________ Throgg

06-20-2006, 01:47 PM	#57
Porfirio Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4	Even before the stun nerf, this is what I would like to see changed in regards to our heals.Lower single heal, ward, group heal by 1 second casting time but increase recast time by 1 second. So overall nothing really changes but we get them off a bit faster.The sacrament line I thought was about perfect before DoF, but it needed an increase in hp healed. Its already got a long reuse, reageant, self only going against it, I don't think it needs the high power cost as well. Would like to see that lowered. __________________ http://eq2players.station.sony.com/signature?characterId=285274202

06-20-2006, 09:58 PM	#58
OrcSlayer96 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 794	Porfirio wrote: Even before the stun nerf, this is what I would like to see changed in regards to our heals. Lower single heal, ward, group heal by 1 second casting time but increase recast time by 1 second. So overall nothing really changes but we get them off a bit faster. The sacrament line I thought was about perfect before DoF, but it needed an increase in hp healed. Its already got a long reuse, reageant, self only going against it, I don't think it needs the high power cost as well. Would like to see that lowered. The power cost per hit point healed on sacrament is our most efficent heal spell, compare it to single and group target geals and you will see that the numbers support it. At first i too thought it was overpriced on the power cost, but if you have it at adept 3 or master 1 you will see that it is a bargain on power to health ratio. I would still only change the casting time to either 2 seconds or 1 second on it. The single heal,ward, group heal are exact matches on casting time versus other healer classes and probably will not change. The Sacrament line is the only oddball spell with it's casting time much longer than brawler's mend ability.

06-20-2006, 10:43 PM	#59
Porfirio Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4	Our self heal should be the most efficient, like I said it's got so many things against it, I think one of them could be eased up.I also meant to include it in the over all reduction of our heals cast time by 1 second. They are on par with other healers, but we aren't healers. I don't know, just seems to make sense to me that a holy knight would be able to cast live saving spells faster but have to wait longer before using them again, that should be our little quirk with heals being a paladin. If the devs feel they are balanced as is, then taking that second off the cast time and adding it to the recast isn't changing our healing per second. __________________ http://eq2players.station.sony.com/signature?characterId=285274202

06-20-2006, 11:31 PM	#60
OrcSlayer96 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 794	Porfirio wrote: Our self heal should be the most efficient, like I said it's got so many things against it, I think one of them could be eased up. I also meant to include it in the over all reduction of our heals cast time by 1 second. They are on par with other healers, but we aren't healers. I don't know, just seems to make sense to me that a holy knight would be able to cast live saving spells faster but have to wait longer before using them again, that should be our little quirk with heals being a paladin. If the devs feel they are balanced as is, then taking that second off the cast time and adding it to the recast isn't changing our healing per second. Like you said, we are not healers, if we have a quicker casting time on our tragetted heals than any other healers, what will that make them do? I would rather have a in game ability that virtually eliminated our fizzle and interrupt rates than have a quicker casting time on our heals. Our heals are only one aspect of us, i rely just as much if not more on my stuns and other utilities. We start becoming quicker on casting heals than healers, we will be permentally pidgeon holed to only heal, and if i wanted that i would go to WOW... I understand your idea that because we are in combat we should have quicker heals, but i believe our hammer ground aa and our other list of stuns helps us enough. The only oddball is our sacrament that for a self heal that use to be 1 second pre LU 13 has lost some use at its 3 second casting time. If you want a quicker casting time on the other heals, then the other healers out there need the same reduction to casting time to be fair to all.