T7 Armour

[janowski]

Anyone else finding the idea of replacing your good ole trusty cobalt for T7 armour a step backwards. The mit is much lower, and some have either stats or resists, but not both. Any comments, surprised this issue hasnt cropped up yet.

 

Check out link http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a7&message.id=4975

 

[Jonaroth]

thank you but I'll hold onto my t6 fabled till I see some t7 fabled

[FieryFurnace]

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Jonaroth wrote:thank you but I'll hold onto my t6 fabled till I see some t7 fabled

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Amen.

[Arthire]

One thing i noticed is that some drops list a lower miti, but have +63 vs. crushing/slashing/piercing.  I got a set of forearms like this.  On a whim i equiped them and my miti went up.  No clue why they would do it like this, but it had higher STR, two resists comparable to Cobalt, and ended up about 30pts higher miti.  Seems like an up to me....and they were regular old treasured junk.  Not sure if i'm missing somthing here.

 

/shrug

[Anzak]

More than likely they have a weighting system for gear.  So each thing is worth a certain number of points.  The total points modified by the level is what decides the Teir of the item (legendary, fabled, etc....) So when making an item they look at where it drops/is made and then figure out how to get the item in the value range.  More than likely pure Mit has a higher value than adding to slashing/crushing/piercing so by using this they can make an item have more mit but fall in a lower tier but you are normally giving up something maybe some extra resists or something.As for T6 rare crafted vs T7 rare crafted... Well this is just another blow to crafters.  This entire expansion seems to be set on putting crafters out of work.  Yet then we turn around and get 2 HQs that need 50 and 60 level crafter to complete.  Just very very odd.

[MeridianR]

Just an FYI:An item with say +63 slashing / crushing / piercing will give you directly 63 more mitigation.An item with say +63 slashing / +63 Crushing and no piercing will give you 63/2 more mitigation (36ish)An item with say +63 slashing and no crushing / piercing will give you 63/3 more mitigation (21ish)So while an item might have lower listed mitigation it might be better due to the bonuses.I am going to hold onto my T6 Fabled until I get anything higher end T7 Legandary or Fabled (some of the legandary stuff GrizzFizzle's Shield for one) is insane.  Also I have seen the Guardian class hate, and here is hoping the Paladin class hate comes with the same mitigation

[Sedden]

I think by the devs posts yesterday they are going to redo the crafted armor again for T7 and give it some resists because of the outcry on how stupid the armor stats are now

[Anzak]

The problem is not that there are no resist on it.  Well that is part of it.  The problem is that T7 rare armor is worse that T6 rare armor in terms of mitigation.  So now from what I read Behn plans to reduce T6 armor to be more in line with T7 which is not the solution.  Though from what I read it looks like exsisting armor will not be effected which is good for me since I'm still in a few cobalt items hoping to replace them soon though now that content is becoming easier.  This actually comes back to my stance on where rare crafted armor needs to be.The problem is that raiders do not want to have to replace their hard earned fabled with Legendary when the levels go up.  This is understandable.  But at the same time there ends to be an entry point into the raid scene for new comers without farming outdated content.  Rather than going to this whole treasured idea which personally I think is the wrong way to go.  I think Rare crafted needs to stay legendary but it should not be better than fabled of the tier before rather it should be on par with it.  Maybe give some trade offs.  Say fabled has slightly better resists or what have you but over all if someone is in T6 fabled and another person is in T7 rare crafted they should be just about equal with maybe a slight edge to the fabled.  This way the low end raids in a tier where you start to get the weaker fabled for that tier are do able in rare crafted which gives a start point into raiding for newcomers.  It also means that the instances can have the weak fabled gear like we saw in DoF (well outside the Truth Sheild still trying to get that thing).This also goes for weapons not that we have this whole system of needing certain weapons to use AS abilities we really need to be able to get a crafted weapon to pick up in a pinch incase we have not found a dropped weapon of the type we need.Right now I feel SOE is caving to the raiders to create this division between raiders and non-raiders but at the same time they are pushing away a large base of players in the casual and crafters.  As of right now I have not seen anything that I want crafted other than Adept III spell oh wait I already have 2 masters when I get High enough level to use them.  Maybe some resist jewlery though the more fabled I get the less that will be needed though more than likely I will get some heat resist stuff to make up for my weakness as a pally.  Maybe a new tablet though I don't even think they ever added anything T6 fabled that was better than the cobalt tablet thanks to the lovely +60 mit on it.  And unless the T7 one has mit on it as well more than likely the rare ore I have will go to waste on a lamp post or something.

[RSta]

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Jonaroth wrote:thank you but I'll hold onto my t6 fabled till I see some t7 fabled

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You've actually stated the correct response, if you are presently working T7 and are thinking that cobalt will be the way to go, forget it.  Don't expect cobalt to stay the way it is, it is a matter of time until it matches the T7 rare stuff that no one wants.  Your best options are:

• Work for those T6 fables that you don't have, they should carry you to T7 fabled
• Work on T7 drops/quests and fabled

Append:At the moment the devs state:Tier 6 armor will be scaled back slightly.  Instead of being Legendary it will be Treasured like tier 7 armor is.  This will happen with we change over that level range from sub-combines to no-sub-combines.  Existing items will not change only items that are made when those recipes are changed.

Message Edited by RStahl on 03-01-200609:18 AM

[Kale]

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Anzak wrote:Right now I feel SOE is caving to the raiders to create this division between raiders and non-raiders but at the same time they are pushing away a large base of players in the casual and crafters. 

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Think about what you're saying.Does a casual player who does not raid really need Fabled gear? They can't even obtain it anyway...It should work like this:Raiders progression: T5 Fabled --> T6 Fabled --> T7 FabledNon raider progression: T5 crafted --> T6 crafted --> T7 craftedAnd somewhere in between is a myriad of drops and quested items.It's stupid that Cobalt was made so good that people who raided T5 felt is necessary to upgrade. They should have been able to hang on to their T5 Fabled until they got T6.Nerfing T6 is simply putting things back into alignment.

[Anzak]

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Kalera wrote:

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Anzak wrote:Right now I feel SOE is caving to the raiders to create this division between raiders and non-raiders but at the same time they are pushing away a large base of players in the casual and crafters. 

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Think about what you're saying.Does a casual player who does not raid really need Fabled gear? They can't even obtain it anyway...It should work like this:Raiders progression: T5 Fabled --> T6 Fabled --> T7 FabledNon raider progression: T5 crafted --> T6 crafted --> T7 craftedAnd somewhere in between is a myriad of drops and quested items.It's stupid that Cobalt was made so good that people who raided T5 felt is necessary to upgrade. They should have been able to hang on to their T5 Fabled until they got T6.Nerfing T6 is simply putting things back into alignment.

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Why?I'm a causal player in a family guild.  But at the same time we raid 3 nights a week and we like to stay in the current tier content.  We don't get full fabled sets or even double sets for every one in the guild.  I have 3 Raid fabled items.Next is the fact that many hardcore raid players grind to max level and have a lot of spare time to farm and as such have a large amount of plat vs causal players who have less time and less plat.  Thus we should have to sustatian the market for crafted gear that is inflated because of the price of rares and the way SOE has set up harvesting.  Oh I'm sorry why should you shell out a small percent of your plat to upgrade your gear because you worked so hard for your fabled.  While the rest of us have to fork over a large percent just to be able to handle group mobs since the group mobs need to be made harder so the fabled geared people don't just completely walk through the content.I never said make Rare crafted better.  I said make it on par.Also lets look at another thing.  SOE seems to be trying to go for this whole trade off thing.  The only place trade offs should really matter is on raids how many times have you fought a group mob and say oh this guy uses a heat based attack I better get out my resist gear?  I'm willing to bet never.  So the trade offs should be on raids yet fabled gear does not make these trade offs.  Yet again SOE messing up a good system for the casual players.I was decked out in full rare crafted at level 55 and that was great and it helped my guild start doing some of the T6 starter raids.  But now I have no upgrade options other than drops which I don't mind to some extent but there is nothing a crafter can make that I want right now.  Masters are dropping left and right I think I have 4 T7 masters already and god only knows how many adept Is.  The crafted gear is a joke.  Heck I got a full set of Resist rings that I will more than likely never use because they have +33 HP and resists that is it.  Why whould I give up my T6 ring with +9 STA and +50 HP and decent resists to get a jacked up double resist item?There is no reason why T7 Plate could not have 415-420 or even 430 Mitigation on it.  That puts it slightly below the lower end raid fabled items but well enough above Cobalt to make it an upgrade.  Oh wait then there is no reason for the crappy drops we get because they are in that range.Right now there are a few issues that look like SOE is trying drive away not only causual players but crafters as well.1) T7 Crafted items not worth buying thus no market for them.2) T7 Nodes surrounded by KoS mobs to drive the price of Raws up3) Increase on the number of raws needed for a combine4) Increase in fuels needed and thus cost for fuel.So tell me would it be so bad for crafters to have something useful to make?  Something that may even be a slight upgrade to someone in full fabled from the teir before?  Say oh look 1 out of 7 armor items is slightly better and worth it for a raider to pick up to upgrade as they get ready for the next teir of raiding.  And at the same time give people coming into the raid scene a chance to start out on content in their tier.As it is right now by the time my guild farms enough gear to start on T7 more than likely T8 will be coming out.  Why should we be forced to raid content that we can brute force and remove anything even remotely resembling tactics because you want your fabled to be so much more uber than anything else.  Oh I'm sorry you want to be sure your better geared than me at all time.  How many weeks into DoF did it take before you started getting T6 fabled?  It took me almost 2 months to get in full Cobalt and 55.

[OrcSlayer96]

The new armor pics the Bregn posted on the armor forum looks promising with the mastercrafted xegonite.  For the casual player it will be tier 6 cobalt to tier 7 xegonite then using mob drop legendary and fables for upgrades.  Bregn still needs to tweak some of the stuff on the armor but i like the resists plus 1 in defense and if cobalt is reduced the mitigation will not be bad for entry level groups and smaller scale raiding till better mob drops are found.  Anybody that thinks that the common handcrafted gear is worthless, look at your previous tiers, almost all looked worthless when compared to mob drops and previous fabled/legendary.  As far as i am concerned the common handcrafted is good for two things, equiping alts with that are grinding levels and such and leveling your crafter.  taking the whole cobalt armor arguement out of the picture, how many times in the past did you replace your crafted rare armor with nice group drops let alone raid drops.  With them putting back resists with a twist and hopefully making a few chages on imbued chests and legs plus changing devout armor abit i am likint this tier 7 armor version 2.0

[Anzak]

But I have already seen trash mobs drop better stuff than the current cobalt.  All this is doing is creating even more of a rift which does not need to be there.  Why does there need to be a rift like this?  The Raiders will be raiding T7 content in a matter of weeks if they are not already and they will have their upgrades and quickly.  While the causual players will enjoy having nice gear that allows them to attempt so of the easier raid targets when they can.

[OrcSlayer96]

I guess i dont fully understand the problem, since day one of this game there has always been a margin between fabled gear versus semi rare drop legendary versus rare crafted gear versus common drop and common crafted.  If you are just starting off to raid in tier 7 and already have prexisting cobalt, you can decide to have the revised triple stat xegonite for a upgrade or farm mobs to try to get your gear.  People will lean to the xegonite as a starter suit to help them get the better mob drop or keep the xegonite to take advantage of the the 4 resists it gives.  People go with what makes sense to their playstyles, if they are grouping with multiple plate wearers, it might make sense for them to have xegonite made because even if the legendary gear drops off the mob, there is no guarantee they will win the random roll for it.  If Bregn boosts the mit up another 10 or so points plus a boost of 200 or more resists i can see people really look at this armor.   We were truely spoiled on cobalt and we need to be brought back down to a more reasonable gear progression.  The whole arguement of raiders and what they doo is a moot point if people are correct they at most equal 15 percent of the playing environment.  With the revised armor coming to us shortly the better question will be is there a way for a casual player to get better than mastercrafted armor off of farming mobs and/or locations for all of their gear or is it just a few pieces.  I know that back in tier 5 i had a mix of ebon/fulginate and mob drop items like rubicite spaulders and gauntlets.  I feel the same will apply here once they they finalize the tier 7 armor.

[Anzak]

There are few things.1) Rare should be rare.  In T6 rare was not rare rather it become common.  This is was because if you where not in fabled you more than likely had a fair amount of ebon because Ebon had been  the top for so long.2) From Tier to Tier one step down should be equal to the previous teir.  Again this was messed up in T6 because rare crafted was better than fabled rather than equal but that was not so much a problem with T6 crafted rather with T5 fabled being slightly weak.3) Resist mean nothing if you are not raiding.  With basic gear your resists should be good enough to deal with any issues in group/solo setting.  Resists are for Raids.4) Trade offs in the wrong place.  Since resists are only really useful on raids there is no point to this whole trade off of stats vs resists we are currently seeing in T7 crafted gear.  The place the trade off needs to be is on fabled gear where the raiders will need to have different sets of gear for different mobs.5) Common crafted should be the norm.  Again because of the flood in T6 rare become the norm.  Which even if item number 2 where true most people would have no reason to buy common crafted because they are already decked out in rare so equal to the next teir common.  So now we have mobs that are set for people in rare crafted rather than common crafted.The list could go on and on.  The point is the solution is not make existing gear worse.  Rather make the nex teir better to be in line with the rest of the gear in that teir.  When I see a trash drop that is 50% better than any crafted item that teir there is a problem.  The progression should be like this.Vendor Drops -> Crafted -> Lesser Named Drops -> Solo Quested -> Rare Crafted -> Greater Named Drops -> Group Quested -> Raid Drops -> Raid Drop crafted (Needs a raid drop to craft something) -> Raid QuestedThat give s progression based on difficulty to obtain which is what risk vs reward is all about.  Now keeping in mind that going to the next teir will be like taking one step down.  If the Raid people do the long involved raid quests and get the top tier they are already gear up equal to the next teirs and would not really need to worry about the  crafting drops from raid mobs.  But it gives a point where Casual players can start from to start working up to the raid scene if the suddenly get more time to work on getting there.

[Kale]

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Anzak wrote:I spent some time addressing the first part of your post, which sounds to me like it boils down to envy. But let's get to the real meat instead...There is no reason why T7 Plate could not have 415-420 or even 430 Mitigation on it.  That puts it slightly below the lower end raid fabled items but well enough above Cobalt to make it an upgrade.  Oh wait then there is no reason for the crappy drops we get because they are in that range.Now you're seeing the point. You can't just raise crafted because it breaks the progression, not just of gear, but of mobs and raids.Go back to your observation about being able to tackle T6 raids because you had T6 crafted. I'm sure you're talking about things like Gates. T6 raids don't come in one flavor though - they come in several degrees of difficulty. Certain raids are meant for lower level T6 players in lower level gear, and the raids progress in difficulty until you're raiding mobs that basically require you have mostly crafted stuff.The way it should work is that you start with crafted. Then you attack the easier T6 raids first, get the loot from that to augment your crafted. Now you have a mix of gear and you can tackle harder stuff, so you go after the tough T6 content to get the good Fabled. All of this culminates in the attacks on the toughest T6 mobs.But T6 crafted was so good everyone skipped the lower end T6 raids and intermediate gear and went straight for the hardest stuff. That's not how it should work, but that's how it did. You should go after the easy first, augment your crafted with a select number of drops, and then hit the hardest raids that Tier has to offer.That is the way it worked in T5. You went after easy stuff like Epic Angler before you started farming Darathar. The reason Epic Angler exists is so guilds in T5 crafted could actually start raiding. Not so they could skip to the endgame raids.Now, think about how this affects the content itself.  If you boost T7 crafted to be on par with the progression from T6 crafted then guess what happens? The devs have to boost the mobs as well to compensate, otherwise it all becomes too easy. And that throws the balance out of whack. A guild in T6 gear should be able to tackle the lowest level T7 raids - but if you throw the mobs out of whack then you require that the T6 folks have T6 Fabled in order to even attempt the lowest level T7 stuff.That is when things get absurd.Right now there are a few issues that look like SOE is trying drive away not only causual players but crafters as well.Stop right there. They are not trying to drive away anyone. That's an absurd statement - pure rhetoric. I'm a casual player; about as casual as they come. Thirteen months played and I'm only level 56 with no alts and I don't craft. I spend all my time on one character, adventuring and questing. And I don't see SOE trying to drive me away with what you state.1) T7 Crafted items not worth buying thus no market for them.It is not worth buying because T6 was too good. Stop looking at it backwards and see the larger picture here. Everything is relative - all equipment is not measured against only crafted, but against all other equipment as well.2) T7 Nodes surrounded by KoS mobs to drive the price of Raws up3) Increase on the number of raws needed for a combine4) Increase in fuels needed and thus cost for fuel.Those are all natural progressions from tier to tier. So tell me would it be so bad for crafters to have something useful to make?  Something that may even be a slight upgrade to someone in full fabled from the teir before?  Say oh look 1 out of 7 armor items is slightly better and worth it for a raider to pick up to upgrade as they get ready for the next teir of raiding.  And at the same time give people coming into the raid scene a chance to start out on content in their tier.You're misunderstanding the market. The market for crafters is NOT folks in Fabled gear. It's folks in crafted gear and lesser quest drops who need upgrades. And there are plenty of those players in the game. Casual players should be the crafter's prime target because they are less likely to have any Fabled on them.You need to understand that Fabled is way better (and should be way better) than crafted gear. So the hardcore raiders shouldn't be part of the crafted equation if they raid frequently. They should be able to hang on to their T5 Fabled until they get T6, and they should be able to hang on to T6 Fabled until they get T7. Having to buy crafted in between tiers, like happened with T6, forces raid folks to upgrade twice, which is absurd. Who wants to replace a Fabled item - something you got from a raid that you really treasured when it dropped  - with a crafted item that anyone can buy?No one.As it is right now by the time my guild farms enough gear to start on T7 more than likely T8 will be coming out. Big deal! Are you in a race? Do you think the content won't be there? This is envy talking. If you want to be on the cutting edge of the raid game then join a raid guild and raid 24/7. Otherwise, quit giving yourself an ulcer worrying about how fast you progress. Don't worry about the speed - worry about doing what's right for your guild.Why should we be forced to raid content that we can brute force and remove anything even remotely resembling tactics because you want your fabled to be so much more uber than anything else.  Oh I'm sorry you want to be sure your better geared than me at all time.  How many weeks into DoF did it take before you started getting T6 fabled?  It took me almost 2 months to get in full Cobalt and 55.I really don't think you understand what is going on with equipment in this game...It is not about someone else being better equipped than you (although from the sounds of your post, you sure seem to worry about other players a lot - your post is filled with envious thoughts). It's about being able to maintain a logical progression from tier to tier. No one who is wearing T6 Fabled wants to have to replace that with T7 crafted. They want to be able to hang on to it until they get T7 Fabled. That is why they raid - for the Fabled gear. To be forced to buy crafted at T7 invalidates their Fabled gear.

Why should we be forced to raid content that we can brute force...If the system wasn't broken in T6 you wouldn't have this problem. You wouldn't be forced to brute-force raid stuff, because you would have to follow the progression instead.Imagine - for a moment - what life in T6 would have been like if Cobalt woudn't have been so Godly. What would you have done? Well, first, (if you were a raider) you would have retained any T5 Fabled you had on you. You wouldn't have been quick to replace it. Second, you would have tackled the easier T6 raid content first, to try and get upgrades to anything that wasn't Fabled. Then you would have eventually moved up to the hardest T6 and got the best Fabled.If you were a casual player you would have upgraded to T6 crafted because that's what you always did from level 10 onward. Even if it wasn't Godly, you still upgrade because it is better than the previous tier's stuff. We all started in iron, and feyiron/feysteel, and fulginate/ebon. The system didn't get screwed up until T6 hit...There's a progression at work in EQ2. Cobalt messed with it. It is unfortunate, but we shouldn't be trying to kill the system. Scale back Cobalt to be in-line with the T3-T4-T5-T7 progression and live will return to normal. Crafters will craft - because the market is there (there are still casual players at level 60+ who need that armor) and raiders will raid.And Fabled will still matter, as it should.

[Kale]

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Anzak wrote:The point is the solution is not make existing gear worse.  Rather make the nex teir better to be in line with the rest of the gear in that teir.

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Wrong answer. The progression has already been established from tiers 1-5. iron/steel --> Feyiron/Feysteel --> Fulginate/Ebon --> etc. Cobalt was out of line. Scaling it back will properly fix the progression, because then T7 will actually *be* an upgrade from T6.If you make the next tier better, as you suggest, then you will destroy the difficulty of the established mob/raid zone progression. You will get to a point where someone coming from T6 wont' be able to tackle T7 without upgrading, and that shouldn't happen. You shouldn't have to have T7 crafted gear BEFORE entering a T7 zone. You should be able to go with the T6 stuff you obtained. That is why the scaling back has to happen.

[Anzak]

First off yes I do envy the raiders a bit.  Sometimes I wish I had the time to put into the game.  But that is not the biggest issue for me.  I'll get to that in a bit.First off lets look at the Tier Progression.  Since you like to bring that up.  Even after the upgraded cobalt it was still a smaller upgrade from Ebon than Ebon was from Feysteel.  How is that broken?  The problem was not cobalt rather the problem was the T5 fabled being too weak.  So now we see yet again SOE trying to scale back the crafted so they don't have to beef up the fabled too much.   Not to mention trash mobs are dropping items better than anything a crafter can make.  Why buy from a crafter when I can kill a few easy to kill mobs and get better?Now here is the problem with the raid progression.  Once T6 came out because the T5 fabled was so weak instead of being on par with T6 rare crafted like it should have been, there was no point to continuing to raid T5.  I was just starting to raid when DoF came out.  I missed tons of content because every time my guild called a T5 raid the numbers got less and less not because there was no point other than doing the content.  If the drops had been on par with T6 rare crafted then there would have been a point in that we could save some cash by getting raid drops.  Maybe get an effect out of the deal.  So then we start hitting T6 at the low end but since we do not raid much the high end was still out of reach.  But we were slowly getting gear and getting to the point where some of the higher stuff might be do able.  Then KoS comes.  I got 2 levels no real gear changes and stuff that was slightly difficult is so easy it was boring.  Great so we get to farm boring content to get gear to start back at the low end of the raiding in T7 rather than dumping some plat into getting crafted gear to off set what we need and keep moving on Content that is worth doing.  As it is now we almost completely stopped raiding because of DoF and more than likely because we have to farm T6 to start T7 we are going to lose numbers yet again and have to rebuild back to raiding once we start T7.  It took us 2 months of raiding T7 just to get people back in the habit of thinking because the T5 stuff had bored them so badly.  This is why the entry level raids at each teir need to be do able with Crafted gear from that teir and that gear should be par with fabled from the teir before.  Remove the effects on T6 fabled items that is there T7 rare crafted should be.

[Kale]

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Anzak wrote:First off lets look at the Tier Progression.  Since you like to bring that up.  Even after the upgraded cobalt it was still a smaller upgrade from Ebon than Ebon was from Feysteel.  How is that broken? It's broken because you're not looking at the whole picture. (Well you are, I'll get to that below, but you seem to ignore things..)You can't look at crafted in a vacuum. You hav to look at crafted compared to everything else. Which you almost do, in this next sentence...The problem was not cobalt rather the problem was the T5 fabled being too weak. Yes! Now you're seeing it!Items have to be in balance with not just their own kind (crafted to crafted) but with other items of the same tier. You can't have a T5 crafted item being better than a T5 Fabled item. That throws the balance out of whack.Now - was it really a problem with T5 Fabled being weak, or with crafted being too good?Think of it this way: if all you had was Ebon (forget T6 existed) then how well balanced was the T5 Fabled? Still weak? I grant it is not great, but put in proper context T5 Fabled was better than crafted, and that's where it should have been.So now we see yet again SOE trying to scale back the crafted so they don't have to beef up the fabled too much. There is a reason for this that you still don't seem to grasp. It is much easier (and more effective) to scale back crafted armor than to beef up Fabled. And here is why: because if you beef up Fabled you have to beef up encounters, otherwise they become trivial.Think about it for a moment. Think about the relationship between equipment and content. If you beef up equipment of one tier you have to beef up the content, otherwise it becomes trivial. So the proper solution is to scale back the items, thus allowing you to leave the content untouched.This problem is much larger than simply saying Fabled needs a boost. This is complex. And we've already seen how unbalanced these games can get when the developers just boost stuff and don't do the right (and brave) thing by scaling back (EQ1 suffered from this).Not to mention trash mobs are dropping items better than anything a crafter can make.  Why buy from a crafter when I can kill a few easy to kill mobs and get better?Where and what? I have yet to see a trash mob drop something I would rather equip than crafted gear of any tier. Are you talking T7 trash mobs? This seems like rhetoric to me. Now here is the problem with the raid progression.  Once T6 came out because the T5 fabled was so weak instead of being on par with T6 rare crafted like it should have been, there was no point to continuing to raid T5.Exactly. But it had less to do with T5 Fabled being weak and a lot more to do with T6 crafted being too strong. The crafted is easier to get, hence the reason people quit raiding T5 and started buying T6.I'll grant some T5 Fabled wasn't great. Both problems were in play. But it would have been a much easier fix if the Cobalt wouldn't have been so Godly.I was just starting to raid when DoF came out.  I missed tons of content because every time my guild called a T5 raid the numbers got less and less not because there was no point other than doing the content.  If the drops had been on par with T6 rare crafted then there would have been a point in that we could save some cash by getting raid drops. Conversly, if the T6 crafted wouldn't have been SO good you would have still raided for T5 Fabled, no? You're coming at this from the same angle every time, not seeing it the other way...Maybe get an effect out of the deal.  So then we start hitting T6 at the low end but since we do not raid much the high end was still out of reach.  But we were slowly getting gear and getting to the point where some of the higher stuff might be do able.  Then KoS comes.  I got 2 levels no real gear changes and stuff that was slightly difficult is so easy it was boring.  Great so we get to farm boring content to get gear to start back at the low end of the raiding in T7 rather than dumping some plat into getting crafted gear to off set what we need and keep moving on Content that is worth doing.The argument you're making is that you would rather dump plat to buy crafted so you can raid lower-end T7 stuff. The argument most other raiding folks would make is that they would much rather skip that step and simply start raiding lower-end T7 with their upper-end T6 gear. The basic problem here is that you apparently aren't in a raiding guild. Otherwise you'd see it from their perspective. They don't want to have to blow coin on crafted gear when they are wearing Fabled. They expect that gear to work at least into the first half of the next tier. That's the hope when you get a Fabled item...As it is now we almost completely stopped raiding because of DoF and more than likely because we have to farm T6 to start T7 we are going to lose numbers yet again and have to rebuild back to raiding once we start T7.  It took us 2 months of raiding T7 just to get people back in the habit of thinking because the T5 stuff had bored them so badly.  This is why the entry level raids at each teir need to be do able with Crafted gear from that teir and that gear should be par with fabled from the teir before.  Ok, I can agree with the premise that the entry-level raids of one tier should be doable with the crafted gear from that tier. But you can't make it the same as Fabled, otherwise you invalidate Fabled.The solution, I think, is that T6 Fabled ought to be better than T7 crafted (as all previous level Fabled should be better than next tier Fabled). So how does that work with respect to raids? Simple - as you suggest, you should be able to do the entry-level raids of T7 with T7 crafted. Having T6 Fabled ought to allow you to skip the entry-level raids of T7 and move directly to the mid-level raids.And that seems to be the direction SOE is taking by scaling back T6 crafted. They're saying the same thing - use the crafted of a tier for the entry-level raids of a tier. But to do the end-tier stuff you're going to need better.The problem with T6 is that T6 crafted didn't allow you to just raid the entry level stuff - it allowed you to raid the end-tier stuff. And that was out of whack.

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[OrcSlayer96]

I agree with Kalera on everything about the tiers and their scaling of common and crafted gear, the devs have stated many times that before DOF they had no vision on how the armor tiers scaled other than a rough outline and personal choices by devs.   They really need to go with a set in stone scaled progression and i think that is what Bregn is trying to do.  Who ever came up with the idea that only raiders need to worry about resists must be blind to the fact that if you solo or group you are being subjected to many more spells and abilities than we used to have months ago.  If you dont believe me try tackling green-blue mobs and and see what effects you more, their melee attacks or their spells/combat arts.  I will say that raiders do indeed need Higher resist numbers than your ordinary gear and i have seen that on many fable drops in the game.  Nobody should expect that a new tiers rare crafted armor should be identical to lower tier fabled, the majority of people are happy if it gives them a good use against like con mobs and realize if you want the tougher mobs you need to get the better gear.  From what i have seen from higher level guildees they have put in the starter instances in KOS to help up and coming guilds to gear up for tougher content, these zones reminfd me of scornfeathers roost/ poets palace/ hidden cache/cazel's mesa where the lite version of fabled had a chance to drop(immovable barbute,crimson rock targe, serrated claw necklace anyone)

 

[Anzak]

Ok lets take a step back here.1) Treasured weapons do not hit epic mobs.  So now you can't get a rare crafted weapon and fight raid mobs.2) While SOE will not openly admit there is a difference in quality level of gear.  100 Mit on fabled gives much more than 100 Mit on treasured.  So not only will you be down close to 500 mit from T6 fabled to T7 treasured you will also lose some hidden amount.  This will make even started raids nearly impossible.3) Ok maybe not trash mobs but low end named mobs.  I have a ring with greater than +15 to 2 stats +75 HP and +70 power and a few resists on it.  Since the stats are key stats this makes the ring 100 times better than even the rare crafted rings.  Sure I can get more on the stats with the rings or more on the resists but to get a good balance of both I'm better off with a treasured ring that was junk loot of a heroic named mob.  Now a boss from and instance or the result of a ring event maybe but I would still expect that the good loot be atleast legendary.4) SOE has stated that they want you to be in T6 fabled to raid T7 low end content.  This is why T7 crafted needs to be on par with T6 fabled.  Like I said I would love it to be close if not the same stat wise.  But level the effects on the fabled where the crafted has none.  This gives the edge to the fabled but makes crafted desireable to more casual raiders who have a mix of fabled and legendary.5) Trade off.  Again SOE seems to think that trade offs are important to casual players yet raiders don't need to make trade offs.  Fabled gear has a nice all around stats and resists yet crafted is stuck with one or the other.  Again get to the more casual raider who has a mix of fabled and crafted and you will see that for heroic mobs even instance boss the fabled more than makes up for anything you need to make the encounter easy.  There is no point to trade off at that level because the mobs are outright too easy to worry about changing things around. Oh and just another point.  I picked up the vendor loot off one of the named birds in the Nest.  The Kettle something or other pot helm thing.  Yeah it sucks it is only treasured the resists are not that great and the stats are a bit weak but it has 377 Mit with +66 to all melee damage.  Which puts it at 30 more Mit that my Immovable Barbute.  So I give up 18 HP and a bit in resists to get 20 Power and 30 mit.  Sure there is a trade off there but wait.  This was the trash vendor loot from that mob.  The legendary item was something else.  This is just a treasured item that blows away T6 and T7 crafted as well as the low end T6 fabled.  Now the higher T6 fabled helms put this to shame but again for a casual raider you are looking at a mix of gear as some of that might be instance fabled which is just slightly better then rare crafted.Right now the crafted gear is worthless because not only is the previous tier better but it is extremely easy to get good gear from easy drops.  Make a run into the sanctum of the scaleborn and tell me that a person completely decked out in T7 rare crafted could not replace most if not all their gear in a matter of a few hours as the pushed down to the lower levels.  Why would I want to pay 4 plat for an item that an hour later will be worthless.  Sure I can't predict the drops but I would expect that at 62 I would be hard pressed to find something better than rare crafted yet here I am looking at drops that put T7 rare crafted to shame with out even trying to look for these items.

[Kale]

I just don't get your issue Anzak. What's the problem? That you get loot from mobs that you can actually use? God forbid you get a good loot drop from a Heroic mob!Are you a master Smith by chance, and this is just your axe to grind, that crafted isn't the be-all, end-all of loot?Maybe you need to just try another game then, if you want crafting to be the best stuff. Because this is Everquest - where loot from drops is better than loot from players.

[Anzak]

Yes it is EverQUEST so I would expect quest gear to be good.  The problem is this we get a legendary chest which means there will be a nice legendary item in there.  Guess what there is and then there is a treasured item that more than likely should be vendor fodder since because Rare crafted should be legendary to make it desireable yet it is better.I think your missing the point that crafted and rare crafted need to be a part of the gear progression not just trash.  Heck I could more than likely look back and see a large number of items from DoF that were just random drops and such that are better than T7 rare crafted.The point is T7 crafting is broken.  To try and fix this they want to change T6 which is not the solution the solution is to fix T7 and make it desireable rather than breaking T6 as well.  I highly doubt you are going to see up and coming guilds raiding T5 raids to get ready for T6 to get ready for T7.  No they are going to start at T6 getting ready for T7.  About the most you will see is people doing Spirit of the lost for their Froglok title and Prismatic 1.0  Which with even basic drops from KoS will be pretty easy.

[Pins]

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Anzak wrote:Ok lets take a step back here.1) Treasured weapons do not hit epic mobs.  So now you can't get a rare crafted weapon and fight raid mobs.2) While SOE will not openly admit there is a difference in quality level of gear.  100 Mit on fabled gives much more than 100 Mit on treasured.  So not only will you be down close to 500 mit from T6 fabled to T7 treasured you will also lose some hidden amount.  This will make even started raids nearly impossible.3) Ok maybe not trash mobs but low end named mobs.  I have a ring with greater than +15 to 2 stats +75 HP and +70 power and a few resists on it.  Since the stats are key stats this makes the ring 100 times better than even the rare crafted rings.  Sure I can get more on the stats with the rings or more on the resists but to get a good balance of both I'm better off with a treasured ring that was junk loot of a heroic named mob.  Now a boss from and instance or the result of a ring event maybe but I would still expect that the good loot be atleast legendary.4) SOE has stated that they want you to be in T6 fabled to raid T7 low end content.  This is why T7 crafted needs to be on par with T6 fabled.  Like I said I would love it to be close if not the same stat wise.  But level the effects on the fabled where the crafted has none.  This gives the edge to the fabled but makes crafted desireable to more casual raiders who have a mix of fabled and legendary.5) Trade off.  Again SOE seems to think that trade offs are important to casual players yet raiders don't need to make trade offs.  Fabled gear has a nice all around stats and resists yet crafted is stuck with one or the other.  Again get to the more casual raider who has a mix of fabled and crafted and you will see that for heroic mobs even instance boss the fabled more than makes up for anything you need to make the encounter easy.  There is no point to trade off at that level because the mobs are outright too easy to worry about changing things around. Oh and just another point.  I picked up the vendor loot off one of the named birds in the Nest.  The Kettle something or other pot helm thing.  Yeah it sucks it is only treasured the resists are not that great and the stats are a bit weak but it has 377 Mit with +66 to all melee damage.  Which puts it at 30 more Mit that my Immovable Barbute.  So I give up 18 HP and a bit in resists to get 20 Power and 30 mit.  Sure there is a trade off there but wait.  This was the trash vendor loot from that mob.  The legendary item was something else.  This is just a treasured item that blows away T6 and T7 crafted as well as the low end T6 fabled.  Now the higher T6 fabled helms put this to shame but again for a casual raider you are looking at a mix of gear as some of that might be instance fabled which is just slightly better then rare crafted.Right now the crafted gear is worthless because not only is the previous tier better but it is extremely easy to get good gear from easy drops.  Make a run into the sanctum of the scaleborn and tell me that a person completely decked out in T7 rare crafted could not replace most if not all their gear in a matter of a few hours as the pushed down to the lower levels.  Why would I want to pay 4 plat for an item that an hour later will be worthless.  Sure I can't predict the drops but I would expect that at 62 I would be hard pressed to find something better than rare crafted yet here I am looking at drops that put T7 rare crafted to shame with out even trying to look for these items.

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1) Actually, treasured weapons can now hit epic mobs.2) No, this is not true. The problem lies in the whole level-mitigation problem, that STILL hasn't been fixed. And actually 323 mitigation on treasured T6 gear gave MORE mitigation % than 323 mitigation on T5 Fabled. See a problem there? I do.3) Imbued rings were overpowered, and they needed to take a hit, now they're better off.4) Well, you can raid T7 with T6 fabled, or farm T7 legendary drops that are equivalent to T6 Fabled to do it. The dragons in Palace of the Awakened drop 2 sets of Tank gear, 1 for plate, 1 for leather, there's your gear go get it, then start raiding T7, or just go back and raid T6 to get fabled up at level 70 to do T7 raids.5) So, you have a trade-off, live with it, you have to give up something to get something else. Crafted gear is nice if you aren't tanking and don't care about your resists.

[Anzak]

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Pinski wrote:

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1) Actually, treasured weapons can now hit epic mobs.But are still mitigated at a higher rate than legendary.2) No, this is not true. The problem lies in the whole level-mitigation problem, that STILL hasn't been fixed. And actually 323 mitigation on treasured T6 gear gave MORE mitigation % than 323 mitigation on T5 Fabled. See a problem there? I do.Yes because levels are more than teir but if you take a T5 Legendary with 100 mit vs a T5 fabled with 100 mit the fabled still wins.  So there are actually 2 factors here level and quality.  By making the armor Treasured it reduces the effectiveness even more.  The only saving grace is the level factor.3) Imbued rings were overpowered, and they needed to take a hit, now they're better off.The Imbued rings where not too powerful.  Having to re equip and recast 5 buffs every 20 minutes balanced the extra effect and the fact that you had to shell out a large amount for them not to normally wear them.  When they were worn effects that was overpowered.  Actually to be honest I like the new proc effects as well but T7 is worthless vs T6 which is not really a problem with T6 as they are balanced pretty well there now I think.4) Well, you can raid T7 with T6 fabled, or farm T7 legendary drops that are equivalent to T6 Fabled to do it. The dragons in Palace of the Awakened drop 2 sets of Tank gear, 1 for plate, 1 for leather, there's your gear go get it, then start raiding T7, or just go back and raid T6 to get fabled up at level 70 to do T7 raids.Oh so if I get lucky and harvest a rare then I'm SoL because I should be farming drops using my gear from the teir before?5) So, you have a trade-off, live with it, you have to give up something to get something else. Crafted gear is nice if you aren't tanking and don't care about your resists.I don't mind trade offs as long as they are in the right place.  A trade of for solo and group encounters is a waste as these are very easy for the most part.  Trade offs need to happen in raids.  I can either up my Power pool or I can up my resist to the mobs AE.  That is a trade off where the player needs to decide which is more important getting an extra nuke or being able to resist more if not all of an AE.  But instead we see fabled gear removing that trade off as I can have both.

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[Kale]

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Anzak wrote:I think your missing the point that crafted and rare crafted need to be a part of the gear progression not just trash.I never said otherwise. I don't expect crafted to be trash. What I don't expect is for crafted to be as good as Fabled, which seems to be what you are advocating, and that I just cannot agree with. Thankfully, the developers of the game don't seem to agree with you either. The point is T7 crafting is broken. T7 crafting isn't broken, T6 is. You continue to ignore this. To try and fix this they want to change T6 which is not the solution the solution is to fix T7 and make it desireable rather than breaking T6 as well.I've seen the T7 crafted and I find it "desirable". If I had the level to use it and the PP I'd buy it. I saw the pristine imbued BP yesterday - +23 to all fighter primary stats (STR/AGI/STA) and 400+ mitigation, which is more than Cobalt by 30+ on each item. Considering no crafted BP prior to T7 ever had STA on it I find it a really nice piece of armor. The lack of resists (of any kind) is troublesome, especially considering that T7 group mobs do more AE damage than lower tier mobs, but for the stat gain it would require quite a compromise, I think.I dunno. The more I read from you the more I'm convinced you're not going to be happy until you see Crafted armor than surpasses Fabled in every category, including mitigation, stats and resists. I highly doubt you are going to see up and coming guilds raiding T5 raids to get ready for T6 to get ready for T7.  No they are going to start at T6 getting ready for T7. Exactly - because the T6 crafting broke the chain and screwed everything up. About the most you will see is people doing Spirit of the lost for their Froglok title and Prismatic 1.0  Which with even basic drops from KoS will be pretty easy.

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[Kale]

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Anzak wrote:

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Pinski wrote:

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2) No, this is not true. The problem lies in the whole level-mitigation problem, that STILL hasn't been fixed. And actually 323 mitigation on treasured T6 gear gave MORE mitigation % than 323 mitigation on T5 Fabled. See a problem there? I do.Yes because levels are more than teir but if you take a T5 Legendary with 100 mit vs a T5 fabled with 100 mit the fabled still wins.  So there are actually 2 factors here level and quality.  By making the armor Treasured it reduces the effectiveness even more.  The only saving grace is the level factor.Again, I fail to see the problem here. Fabled should be > Treasured. Why can't you understandt that?3) Imbued rings were overpowered, and they needed to take a hit, now they're better off.The Imbued rings where not too powerful. Power is relative, and yes, they were too powerful. When they invalidate every Fabled drop out there, they are too powerful. And that's precisely what they did. No one in their right mind would equip anytning else BUT those rings. That is overpowered for a crafted item.4) Well, you can raid T7 with T6 fabled, or farm T7 legendary drops that are equivalent to T6 Fabled to do it. The dragons in Palace of the Awakened drop 2 sets of Tank gear, 1 for plate, 1 for leather, there's your gear go get it, then start raiding T7, or just go back and raid T6 to get fabled up at level 70 to do T7 raids.Oh so if I get lucky and harvest a rare then I'm SoL because I should be farming drops using my gear from the teir before?That should be the benefit of having the best T6 gear - that you don't need to use that rare. Sell it and use it to upgrade your spells or buy a Master. Sheesh... It's like you don't get how this game works.5) So, you have a trade-off, live with it, you have to give up something to get something else. Crafted gear is nice if you aren't tanking and don't care about your resists.I don't mind trade offs as long as they are in the right place.  A trade of for solo and group encounters is a waste as these are very easy for the most part.  Trade offs need to happen in raids.Trade-offs in gear choice should not be relegated to raids only. That is absurd.  I can either up my Power pool or I can up my resist to the mobs AE.  That is a trade off where the player needs to decide which is more important getting an extra nuke or being able to resist more if not all of an AE.  But instead we see fabled gear removing that trade off as I can have both.It's FABLED. It is supposed to be the best... That's the whole point of raiding for FABLED gear - so you don't have to make as many trade-offs. The gear is FABLED. FABLED. FABLED...Maybe if you read it enough it will sink in.

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[Anzak]

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Kalera wrote:

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Anzak wrote:

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Pinski wrote:

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2) No, this is not true. The problem lies in the whole level-mitigation problem, that STILL hasn't been fixed. And actually 323 mitigation on treasured T6 gear gave MORE mitigation % than 323 mitigation on T5 Fabled. See a problem there? I do.Yes because levels are more than teir but if you take a T5 Legendary with 100 mit vs a T5 fabled with 100 mit the fabled still wins.  So there are actually 2 factors here level and quality.  By making the armor Treasured it reduces the effectiveness even more.  The only saving grace is the level factor.Again, I fail to see the problem here. Fabled should be > Treasured. Why can't you understandt that?I agree this is the way it should work but by making rare crafted Treasured instead of legendary it increased the gap between raiding and casual.  And removed a valid upgrade path for for casual raiders.3) Imbued rings were overpowered, and they needed to take a hit, now they're better off.The Imbued rings where not too powerful. Power is relative, and yes, they were too powerful. When they invalidate every Fabled drop out there, they are too powerful. And that's precisely what they did. No one in their right mind would equip anytning else BUT those rings. That is overpowered for a crafted item.The rings were only too powerful when they were given the stacking worn effect buff.  Before they they were equip click remove.  While this was not the right way to handle it most people would not wear just imbued rings because they could get a better base ring and still get the effects.  While this might not have been the right way to do it.  The process worked well since you had to recast them every 20 minutes.  The T6 rings are even well balanced now so why can't the T7 rings follow this set up?  That is a good set up.4) Well, you can raid T7 with T6 fabled, or farm T7 legendary drops that are equivalent to T6 Fabled to do it. The dragons in Palace of the Awakened drop 2 sets of Tank gear, 1 for plate, 1 for leather, there's your gear go get it, then start raiding T7, or just go back and raid T6 to get fabled up at level 70 to do T7 raids.Oh so if I get lucky and harvest a rare then I'm SoL because I should be farming drops using my gear from the teir before?That should be the benefit of having the best T6 gear - that you don't need to use that rare. Sell it and use it to upgrade your spells or buy a Master. Sheesh... It's like you don't get how this game works.What about my lesser items that are not fabled?  These should have an upgrade path.  In fact I should be able to look at the common crafted as equal to my T6 rare crafted stuff so that maybe the T7 will have something I like more and prompt me to change my gear.5) So, you have a trade-off, live with it, you have to give up something to get something else. Crafted gear is nice if you aren't tanking and don't care about your resists.I don't mind trade offs as long as they are in the right place.  A trade of for solo and group encounters is a waste as these are very easy for the most part.  Trade offs need to happen in raids.Trade-offs in gear choice should not be relegated to raids only. That is absurd.Trade offs on solo or group mobs is a waste of time.  These mobs do not hit hard enough to worry about trade offs.  As long as you keep your toon well balanced then if you have a weakness in one resist then your HP will make up for that.  In a decent group if you have a good healer it makes no difference which trade offs you took.  If you get two healers in a group they get bored and you start pulling 3 groups of yellow con mobs to break things up a bit.  While I would not mind havng valid trade offs at this level the fact is they don't really exist.  That leaves raiding which is where you have a mob with a 5K heat AE now you have to make a trade off do I want to get extra power or do I want to get my Heat resist up so I don't get hurt as badly from the AE. I can either up my Power pool or I can up my resist to the mobs AE.  That is a trade off where the player needs to decide which is more important getting an extra nuke or being able to resist more if not all of an AE.  But instead we see fabled gear removing that trade off as I can have both.It's FABLED. It is supposed to be the best... That's the whole point of raiding for FABLED gear - so you don't have to make as many trade-offs. The gear is FABLED. FABLED. FABLED...Maybe if you read it enough it will sink in.Yup I understand the higher gear should be better.  But not better to the point to completely remove the whole idea od trade offs they are putting on the lesser gear.

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The main point is that rare crafted should be the entry level gear for raiding in any tier.  And No you can not skip tot he mid level raiding by having fabled gear.  This means fabled T6 and Legendary (Rare crafted) T7 should be on par.  This gives the raiders a direct jump to raiding in the new teir while more casual players will need to while while crafters level up so they can replace some of the peices they did not get upgrades to.T6 did this right.  In T6 you got Cobalt and started on Lock Jaw, Gates, Court.  Then as you got better gear you completed Capturing Night and Day and moved on to PPR, Pedistal of Sky, Djinn Master Prism where you geared up for the really hard mobs including some of the bosses in gates and court.  Now the problem was the T5 fabled was not a good starting point for this.  While These lower level raids could be done in T5 fabled, T6 was better which was wrong.  It should have been Equal.Now the model is not get legendary gear from the current teir and move into raiding.  No now it is get fabled from the old teir which will be old content which will be trivalized by levels and lead to more casual raiders becoming lax and not focusing on tactics and just brute forcing though the content which leaves them in a bad place when they try to hit content that they need to use tactics.The problem here is you seem to think this is ok for the solo/group players.  The raiders like this because it makes an even bigger divide between them and the casual players.  But it is the Middle ground people who are in casual raid guilds who raid 2 or 3 times a weeks and are not fully decked out in fabled.  These are the people that need these rare crafted upgrades to keep moving forward on the content rather than being stuck in old content which will hurt guild moral as things become too easy then shift back to hard.  Wipes become and issue people get tired of repairing full suits of armor as they wipe on stuff over and over that they should be able to beat but have gotten lazy from brute forcing stuff.

[Kale]

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Anzak wrote:The main point is that rare crafted should be the entry level gear for raiding in any tier.  And No you can not skip tot he mid level raiding by having fabled gear.  This means fabled T6 and Legendary (Rare crafted) T7 should be on par. Well, we've gone round and round in this thread, and all I have left to say is I totally disagree with that idea. And apprently the developers do too, so sorry for you.T6 did this right.And I think T6 did it wrong.While These lower level raids could be done in T5 fabled, T6 was better which was wrong.  It should have been Equal.Wrong - T5 Fabled should have been better than T6 rare crafted. Not by much, mind you, but enough so that players would not want to replace their Fabled with crafted. You cannot invalidate the Fabled gear or the whole system breaks down. Remember, it is you who brought up the fact that mitigation on on a higher tier's armor isn't the same as mitigation on a lower tier's armor. So you have to have the Fabled be better, not equal. Otherwise you run into the exact situation you had with T6 - people wearing T5 Fabled bought rare T6 crafted as a replacement because it was better. And you can't have that. It invalidates the Fabled gear.What this boils down to is: Players decked out in Fabled should be able to wear that gear until they replace it with the next tier's Fabled. That's how it should work. If casual raiders need equipment to start raiding a Tier, they should be able to buy the rare crafted for that tier and use it effectively. (I think we both agree on that). So the only question now is how one tier's Fabled relates to the next tier's rare crafted. You say they should be equal. I say the Fabled should be *slightly* better, so that those players can keep it until they replace it with better Fabled. They shouldn't feel complelled to buy the rare crafted if they are already wearing Fabled. They should just be able to move forward.The problem here is you seem to think this is ok for the solo/group players. It is ok for groups and soloers. They don't need the Fabled gear to operate. They only need the crafted. The model and the progression worked for the first five tiers. There is no reason it can't continue to work for the rest of the game.The raiders like this because it makes an even bigger divide between them and the casual players. That's not the point - you miss it entirely. The point is that no raider in Fabled gear wants to have to buy rare crafted in between tiers! Get that through your thick head.Going from T5 Fabled -> T6 rare Crafted -> T6 Fabled was dumb. The developers recognized that problem and realized it was because T6 rare Crafted was made too good. Players want every advantage when it comes to raiding. If the crafted is better in any way to their Fabled gear from the previous tier they're going to feel compelled to buy it. And that's just dumb (for heavy raiding folks). As for casual players and those who raid infrequently - they do not lose out in this. The developers have done a good job providing them with opportunities for some Fabled gear in non-raid scenarios (Roost, Table, Icy Digs, etc.) Even when T6 rare crafted is scaled back they are still going to be able to do the early entry raid content for that tier. Couple those early entry raids with instances that drop some Fabled loot, and they will be able to equip begger gear and progress. Not as fast as a Fable-equipped raid guild, but that's the point anyway.

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[Anzak]

Ok I think we are starting to agree on a few points.There needs to be an upgrade path for everyone.  Is the biggest issue here.  But I think were we are missing is that I think stat wise the Rare crafted of the next teir should be equal to the fabled of the teir below.  Now yes you have to take into account levels that is fine.  But as far as stats go they should be on par.  The difference is that fabled will have proc/click/worn effects that crafted will not.  That will be the draw to keep fabled items over crafted and give the more casual raiders something to use to piecemail thier armor and keep moving in a new tier.   With that in mind rare crafted T7 armor should have in the range of 420-430 Mit on plate.  With the level adjustment this will be just about equal if not a bit less than some of the decent fabled gear (450+ Mit) It will not be as good as the best but it will be better than some of the lesser items.As for changing T6 what does that do?  Nothing it only hurts the up and coming players and it still leaves the players who have this gear out in the cold because they still to not have a valid upgrade path within the system.  My guild is a very crafter heavy guild and our crafters support our raiding.  In this set up there are very few things that I would buy from any of our crafters.  Now I read the resists have been added to armor on test.  I'd like to see how that plays out.I don't disagree that hardcore raiders who have the best gear should not need to buy crafted items to upgrade.  But if you are not fully decked out in the best from the teir before then rare crafted or even common crafted should be a realistic upgrade option for you.  I mean my Gem Encrusted Gussets are nice but really a T7 rare bracer should be better as they are the low end of fabled gear at least in terms of Mit and maybe I would have to decide do I want better mit from the crafted or better resists from the gussets?  So see the problem is not T6 the problem is T7 and even saying the root of the problem is T6 that does not change that T7 still does not meet the requirements needed to be useful.The other problem is this idea SOE has that we need to raid T6 to start raiding T7 while it is not complete true as there are some nice quest and dropped items in KoS to make that a valid upgrade path crafting still needs to play a part in that.  I mean from where I stand the whole you need to raid T6 to get fabled to raid T7 looks like a money grab to get people who have not bought DoF to buy it because they need to raid T6 before they can move on to T7 instead of letting them grind in places like CT till it is grey then getting some groups to help them in the lower parts of KoS and then work up to 70 that way without going to DoF.  Then they can start raiding once they can get the gear oh wait they need to go back to DoF to get fabled to raid KoS.  If DoF had come bundled with KoS along with the base EQ2 I would not think this but they did EQ2 base + KoS for $30 this is to try and draw in new players but once they get to 70 and realize they need to raid DoF then they need to shell out another $30 to get DoF and get the needed gear to move on.All I see happening right now is new players will have a harder time and existing players do not get a workable upgrade path.