Figured out prob with SK DPS!

Voliere · 08-12-2006, 05:43 AM

Well after some time of playing with this class and other fighters, I have figured out why DPS is usually less and its not reason most think. First of all SK dps is preety darn good when used properly but it DOES suffer in the aspect of auto attack DPS. After testing maxed out strength and looking at parsers when adding up auto attack dps against other fighters (while using CAs at te same wack a mole time) I have found SK's and pallies for that matter much less, and heres why=Nearly all fighter combat arts for other fighters are instant or.5 second cast times. The SK and pally however have signifigantly longer cast times for their dots and spells (1sec plus) which cuts out allot of auto attack, not to mention they are recasted a fair amount due to interupts which leads to even less auto attack going through.The SK is a beautiful class, has allot of pros and is very nice in the right hands (allthough granted they should recieve some power from int, and more upfront hate). A simple way to help allot of SKs and paladins would be to shorten their spell cast times, but still have the exact same recast and reuse timers. All this will do is allow the two classes to gain agro faster and better, less interupts, and more chances for auto attack.It is a simple change and I hope it gains the support of the community to be put into effect. It will in NO WAY ovpower the class, as the recast and reuse timers will remain the same. Thank you.

Red_Rock_Candy · 08-12-2006, 06:25 AM

Are you maxing out your int and buying the spell crit line in these tests? Just curious.

Arieneth · 08-12-2006, 06:49 AM

you need to balance yourself with gear. when dpsing, use a 2h weapon a 3-4 sec delay. this allows for casting a few spells, getting your auto attack swing in, and going back to spells without missing a stride. our spells already have short casting times. most of out abilities are .5 cast. 2 are 1 sec and wrath is 2 secs. our aoe's are all 2 secs or less, which is good for an aoe.you just need pay attention to your swings and cast in between. don't queue spells, give a short pause in between for melee, then cast again. the overall dps will be much higher.

Hark · 08-12-2006, 07:25 AM

I agree weapon choice is the key with this. You need a decent delay weapon. If you have over 50%+ haste for whatever situations you really need a 3s at min, a 3.5 would be even better. After a /weapon and your haste is 2.0 after haste is applied, well that means you can get off almost everything besides abom wrath and death circle between swings. Don't loose auto attack dmg for the most part and are still able to cycle through combat arts effectively. Add some DPS buffage, get lucky and have a good fight.. meaning you cycle great without missing a beat, all your swings hit, you roll a decent melee crit chance for that fight.. you will have to worry about stealing aggro and not being dead. It's actually kinda freaky when you get some group procs going, mastery, all your dots, CA/spells, whatever.. and your dmg window is scrolling faster than you can even keep up with to see if you autoattacked SMILEY

that's when know you are rocking it.

Voliere · 08-12-2006, 08:29 AM

Guys missing the point, as i pointed out the dps from spells is good, but we loose allot of auto attack from the cast times. Shorten cast times= more auto attack and less interupts is my point. Not a big change, but definately a bonus too the class.Made the thread as a way to improve the class. A small improvement, but a welcome one i believe.

Message Edited by Voliere on 08-11-2006 09:30 PM

Asgardsfall · 08-12-2006, 09:42 AM

I think there is an interesting point here.

I started out agreeing. Then you guys changed my mind ... briefly.

I found (thought) that the cast times got in the way of auto attack as well, so decided auto attack could be better utilised.
I used to be a Legionnaire with max Spell Crits but changed to Sword and Club lines because I wanted to be more durable.

Your points regarding slow weapons are very good, and I must admit to not really thinking about that .... however .... Im a sword(club) and shield fanatic and like my high avoidance (despite the well documented probs with loosing hate gain).

One handed weapons are just not that slow.

Message Edited by Asgardsfall on 08-11-2006 10:45 PM

Voliere · 08-12-2006, 11:13 AM

Well i was thinking even though with a two hander you can avoid interfering with auto attack, it is still tricky at best, not to mention the interupts. I dont think the devs will feel this change very severe at all. You have to admit as well, it will only benefit the class.

Hark · 08-12-2006, 11:46 AM

I dig what you are saying, I dunno most the spells are quick already. Just doing this from memory, but isn't agony, pariahs, misery, smite, smash all already .5sec basically all the melee ranged. Wrath is 2 sec, so is death circle I think. Anger and coil are 1sec right i think. I think that's right. Do you want them quicker? I can dig that, but then I think it becomes a problem of they are able to cast on the run again. That for some reason (I took a long extended break right before those changes were put in, it was really one of the hardest changes to get used to when I came back) was deemed overpowering, I assume for pvp reasons. Misery is a spell though that interrupts on move and it's .5 so it is doable.I'm not too worried about 1hander because no matter what just going sword and board your dps is cut horridly. We don't get double attack, so I really don't worry at all about dps with 1hander, I just go all out on spells without trying to time CA/spells in line with autoattack dmg. The damage is so minimal anyways. If we got double attack with 1hander or a dmg bonus, yeah.. ok I'd totally be agreeing with ya here in every way SMILEY

Now that I think about it, I would love pestilence with a faster cast timer. It would make it soo much easier to get full effectiveness. So many times burst dmg on that first mob is so quick I can't even get the spell off to infect the next closest two unless I hit it at full hps. And how many times have you done that only for it to die 1-2s after buff wears off? lol Some mobs it feels like there is no middle ground, I've given up trying to explain some spells to people. Pestilence and death march are just impossible for some people to comprehend how the spell works.

Margen · 08-12-2006, 10:20 PM

if they cut wrath and circle to one second it would help a bit on our dps, plus I wouldn't mind seeing blessing cut down a bit, when tanking it gets kind of a pain gettting fizzels and interupts.

Voliere · 08-12-2006, 10:40 PM

I also personally dont like the route they are going with one-handers and several classes double attack AA's lately. Problem is there are allot of 89-90 damage rating one handers being added, but still the best 2 hander i have heard of is about 115 damage rating, which isnt a big enough difference. I think they need to up the damage on two handers as dual-wield and one handed weapons keep being added which are outdoing them.That and, I just think the two handers look cool =).Oh for you vets, what was EQ 2 original design of dual wield - one hand - two hand ratios? I thought it was intended that 2 dual wields add up to 2 hand damage rating, and 1 hand be like 30% less then that?

Margen · 08-12-2006, 10:53 PM

Yes, two handers need to be looked at, a lot of the raid drop 2h have damage rating less then 100, my best one has a 106 (which has a nice proc, but crappy stats). basicly we just sell them off now for repair kits cost. Most of our scouts have duel wields that add up to 120 (granted they are supposed to do more damge then us, but thats due to ca set vs weapons). I would love to see more long delay huge damage 2h weapons out there.

Plus you are now seeing 1h weapons with 80ish dr, which is kind of sick ), haven't gotten one yet.

Message Edited by Margen on 08-12-2006 11:56 AM

Vexorkane · 08-15-2006, 12:04 AM

115 damage rating? Linky please =)

Tarkin-Wretch · 08-15-2006, 12:23 AM

check out the 1h axe in this thread

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=23401

just plain sick.

Vexorkane · 08-15-2006, 03:02 AM

Drops off the Princes in Barren Sky. It now has a 91 damage rating.

Message Edited by Vexorkane on 08-14-2006 04:03 PM

Voliere · 08-15-2006, 10:08 AM

Gee wiz! Nice axe! If one handers are dropping with damage ratings that high, i think we should see 130 DR 2 handers. Dang, picture a zerker with the double attack AA and that sucker. Drools..

Eluzay · 08-16-2006, 10:23 PM

The biggest problem I have seen in dps was me, and it was briefly said but not talked about much. Do NOT qeue any spells so that you get attacks in between castings, if you constantly qeue then you never swing... was my "noob" mistake when I started out.

08-12-2006, 07:25 AM	#4
Hark Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 44	I agree weapon choice is the key with this. You need a decent delay weapon. If you have over 50%+ haste for whatever situations you really need a 3s at min, a 3.5 would be even better. After a /weapon and your haste is 2.0 after haste is applied, well that means you can get off almost everything besides abom wrath and death circle between swings. Don't loose auto attack dmg for the most part and are still able to cycle through combat arts effectively. Add some DPS buffage, get lucky and have a good fight.. meaning you cycle great without missing a beat, all your swings hit, you roll a decent melee crit chance for that fight.. you will have to worry about stealing aggro and not being dead. It's actually kinda freaky when you get some group procs going, mastery, all your dots, CA/spells, whatever.. and your dmg window is scrolling faster than you can even keep up with to see if you autoattacked that's when know you are rocking it. __________________ Unrest

08-12-2006, 09:42 AM	#6
Asgardsfall Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	I think there is an interesting point here. I started out agreeing. Then you guys changed my mind ... briefly. I found (thought) that the cast times got in the way of auto attack as well, so decided auto attack could be better utilised. I used to be a Legionnaire with max Spell Crits but changed to Sword and Club lines because I wanted to be more durable. Your points regarding slow weapons are very good, and I must admit to not really thinking about that .... however .... Im a sword(club) and shield fanatic and like my high avoidance (despite the well documented probs with loosing hate gain). One handed weapons are just not that slow. Message Edited by Asgardsfall on 08-11-2006 10:45 PM __________________

08-12-2006, 11:46 AM	#8
Hark Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 44	I dig what you are saying, I dunno most the spells are quick already. Just doing this from memory, but isn't agony, pariahs, misery, smite, smash all already .5sec basically all the melee ranged. Wrath is 2 sec, so is death circle I think. Anger and coil are 1sec right i think. I think that's right. Do you want them quicker? I can dig that, but then I think it becomes a problem of they are able to cast on the run again. That for some reason (I took a long extended break right before those changes were put in, it was really one of the hardest changes to get used to when I came back) was deemed overpowering, I assume for pvp reasons. Misery is a spell though that interrupts on move and it's .5 so it is doable.I'm not too worried about 1hander because no matter what just going sword and board your dps is cut horridly. We don't get double attack, so I really don't worry at all about dps with 1hander, I just go all out on spells without trying to time CA/spells in line with autoattack dmg. The damage is so minimal anyways. If we got double attack with 1hander or a dmg bonus, yeah.. ok I'd totally be agreeing with ya here in every way Now that I think about it, I would love pestilence with a faster cast timer. It would make it soo much easier to get full effectiveness. So many times burst dmg on that first mob is so quick I can't even get the spell off to infect the next closest two unless I hit it at full hps. And how many times have you done that only for it to die 1-2s after buff wears off? lol Some mobs it feels like there is no middle ground, I've given up trying to explain some spells to people. Pestilence and death march are just impossible for some people to comprehend how the spell works. __________________ Unrest

08-12-2006, 10:20 PM	#9
Margen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 648	if they cut wrath and circle to one second it would help a bit on our dps, plus I wouldn't mind seeing blessing cut down a bit, when tanking it gets kind of a pain gettting fizzels and interupts. __________________ Blackoath Uglyone 80 Shadow Knight of Chaos Phang 80 Swashbuckler of Chaos You EVER going to fix SKs Sony?

08-12-2006, 10:53 PM	#11
Margen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 648	Yes, two handers need to be looked at, a lot of the raid drop 2h have damage rating less then 100, my best one has a 106 (which has a nice proc, but crappy stats). basicly we just sell them off now for repair kits cost. Most of our scouts have duel wields that add up to 120 (granted they are supposed to do more damge then us, but thats due to ca set vs weapons). I would love to see more long delay huge damage 2h weapons out there. Plus you are now seeing 1h weapons with 80ish dr, which is kind of sick ), haven't gotten one yet. Message Edited by Margen on 08-12-2006 11:56 AM __________________ Blackoath Uglyone 80 Shadow Knight of Chaos Phang 80 Swashbuckler of Chaos You EVER going to fix SKs Sony?

08-12-2006, 05:43 AM	#1
Voliere Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 59	Well after some time of playing with this class and other fighters, I have figured out why DPS is usually less and its not reason most think. First of all SK dps is preety darn good when used properly but it DOES suffer in the aspect of auto attack DPS. After testing maxed out strength and looking at parsers when adding up auto attack dps against other fighters (while using CAs at te same wack a mole time) I have found SK's and pallies for that matter much less, and heres why=Nearly all fighter combat arts for other fighters are instant or.5 second cast times. The SK and pally however have signifigantly longer cast times for their dots and spells (1sec plus) which cuts out allot of auto attack, not to mention they are recasted a fair amount due to interupts which leads to even less auto attack going through.The SK is a beautiful class, has allot of pros and is very nice in the right hands (allthough granted they should recieve some power from int, and more upfront hate). A simple way to help allot of SKs and paladins would be to shorten their spell cast times, but still have the exact same recast and reuse timers. All this will do is allow the two classes to gain agro faster and better, less interupts, and more chances for auto attack.It is a simple change and I hope it gains the support of the community to be put into effect. It will in NO WAY ovpower the class, as the recast and reuse timers will remain the same. Thank you.

08-12-2006, 06:25 AM	#2
Red_Rock_Candy Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 56	Are you maxing out your int and buying the spell crit line in these tests? Just curious.

08-12-2006, 06:49 AM	#3
Arieneth Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 177	you need to balance yourself with gear. when dpsing, use a 2h weapon a 3-4 sec delay. this allows for casting a few spells, getting your auto attack swing in, and going back to spells without missing a stride. our spells already have short casting times. most of out abilities are .5 cast. 2 are 1 sec and wrath is 2 secs. our aoe's are all 2 secs or less, which is good for an aoe.you just need pay attention to your swings and cast in between. don't queue spells, give a short pause in between for melee, then cast again. the overall dps will be much higher.

08-12-2006, 08:29 AM	#5
Voliere Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 59	Guys missing the point, as i pointed out the dps from spells is good, but we loose allot of auto attack from the cast times. Shorten cast times= more auto attack and less interupts is my point. Not a big change, but definately a bonus too the class.Made the thread as a way to improve the class. A small improvement, but a welcome one i believe. Message Edited by Voliere on 08-11-2006 09:30 PM

08-12-2006, 11:13 AM	#7
Voliere Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 59	Well i was thinking even though with a two hander you can avoid interfering with auto attack, it is still tricky at best, not to mention the interupts. I dont think the devs will feel this change very severe at all. You have to admit as well, it will only benefit the class.

08-12-2006, 10:40 PM	#10
Voliere Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 59	I also personally dont like the route they are going with one-handers and several classes double attack AA's lately. Problem is there are allot of 89-90 damage rating one handers being added, but still the best 2 hander i have heard of is about 115 damage rating, which isnt a big enough difference. I think they need to up the damage on two handers as dual-wield and one handed weapons keep being added which are outdoing them.That and, I just think the two handers look cool =).Oh for you vets, what was EQ 2 original design of dual wield - one hand - two hand ratios? I thought it was intended that 2 dual wields add up to 2 hand damage rating, and 1 hand be like 30% less then that?

08-15-2006, 12:04 AM	#12
Vexorkane Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 92	115 damage rating? Linky please =)

08-15-2006, 12:23 AM	#13
Tarkin-Wretch Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 132	check out the 1h axe in this thread http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=23401 just plain sick.

08-15-2006, 03:02 AM	#14
Vexorkane Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 92	Drops off the Princes in Barren Sky. It now has a 91 damage rating. Message Edited by Vexorkane on 08-14-2006 04:03 PM

08-15-2006, 10:08 AM	#15
Voliere Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 59	Gee wiz! Nice axe! If one handers are dropping with damage ratings that high, i think we should see 130 DR 2 handers. Dang, picture a zerker with the double attack AA and that sucker. Drools..

08-16-2006, 10:23 PM	#16
Eluzay Lord Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 432	The biggest problem I have seen in dps was me, and it was briefly said but not talked about much. Do NOT qeue any spells so that you get attacks in between castings, if you constantly qeue then you never swing... was my "noob" mistake when I started out.