DPS Tiers Question (Specifically about SKs and bards)

Dragonlor · 03-28-2006, 08:47 AM

The first part of my question is if anyone can tell me if the following DPS tier listing is still (or was it ever) accurate. I got this from another thread after doing a search for DPS tiers. I have never seen an official source comment on this tier system so I do not know its accuracy/veracity.

T1: Assassins, Rangers, Wizards, WarlocksT2: Conjurer, Necro, Swash, BrigandT3: Troubadour, Dirge, Illusionist, CoercerT4: Furies and BruisersT5: Mystics, Defilers, Shadowknights, Monk, Wardens, BerzerkersT6: Guardians, Templars, Paladins

More specifically, my question revolves around the total DPS produced by the dirge vs the troubadour vs the Shadowknight. By total DPS I mean just that - all the damage from spells, melee, and ranged combat available to the class. Do both the bardic classes really out DPS the shadowknights (tank variety and new battlemage build trend)?

Thanks!

Ultimatum · 03-28-2006, 09:06 AM

Bards should rarely if ever outparse a SK maxing damage crits. The only classes that regularly outdamage me on raids are Rangers, Warlocks, Brigands, Bruisers, and occasionally summoners (though with their spel crits nerfed in LU21 I don't think they are going to be close anymore. Different play styles have a big impact on this though, but for the most part, SKs are at least Tier 3, possibly even T2 DPS at this point.

Diern · 03-28-2006, 10:31 AM

Posting things like that is a good way to get us unwanted attention and nerfs.

Ultimatum · 03-28-2006, 01:38 PM

Not really. If you check in on the ranger boards, "Average" ranger DPS is 600ish. Above Average DPS is 1000-1200. How is this any different. I don't think its game breaking if different ly geared SKs are doing much different damage, I'ts all about choice and play style. and if it IS gamebreaking then it SHOULD get looked at. people trying to hide beneficial bugs and exploits is detrimental to the game as a whole. WHat would have happened if the whole relic armor thing was kept under wraps....it would likely still be going on. the only people who complain about things like this are either 1) Jealous or 2) insecure in how they can play their class after things get fixed to where they should be. Apparently thig is intended anyway because last LU the conjurer AA for spell crits was changed from 100% to 12.5% at max level while the SK one was untouched.

Mistmoore-Milaga · 03-28-2006, 02:47 PM

We are tanks. Frankly, I don't care where we rank in the tiering of damage because that's not really our primary function. That's not why I picked my class. While I am comfortable with the amount of damage I do now and the sacrifices I make to get there. Should we do more damage, as a hybrid type tank class than a hybrid/utility scout class?EDIT: The answer is - who cares? Not really much reason to compare two completely different class and their damage ability.

Message Edited by Milaga on 03-28-200601:54 AM

Dragonlor · 03-28-2006, 07:12 PM

Razerblaze wrote:

and if it IS gamebreaking then it SHOULD get looked at. people trying to hide beneficial bugs and exploits is detrimental to the game as a whole. WHat would have happened if the whole relic armor thing was kept under wraps....it would likely still be going on. the only people who complain about things like this are either 1) Jealous or 2) insecure in how they can play their class after things get fixed to where they should be.

Razer, I could not agree more with the honesty of your post and that is a good attitude to see on these boards (rare, but great to see).

Milaga wrote:
"That's not why I picked my class...The answer is - who cares? Not really much reason to compare two completely different class and their damage ability."

Milaga, as far as whether comparing two different classes is worthwhile or not....well it is for me. You don't have to jump on board nor do you understand why I asked the question. With 1 character slot left, I am weighing my options and DPS is part of the equation for me enjoying this game. There are other factors, but this post wanted to see where the three classes stood according to DPS since I did not feel that the SK was a T5 DPS class overall. The replies have helped me gather info to make my final class choice and I appreciate the inputs!

Message Edited by Dragonlord1 on 03-28-200606:14 AM

Nostarn · 03-28-2006, 11:09 PM

One of the big problems i have with saying it doesn't matter is that we group with people from all 6 tiers. And even though our DPS output might not be our primary function in all situations, our dps is very important to me. Primarily in the setting you describe Milaga, we are Tanks and the big reason i want to know where i stand with dps is to hold agro. If you haven't noticed, there have been a few posts about our agro ability and if you stand there and cycle through your taunts and just auto attack, you will not hold agro. I am working on the Int AA line to get my crits to 100% so that i can hold agro better through dps. I am constantly working my butt off and using rescue/HT to keep the agro from jumping to the T1/T2 people. Sometimes i even have trouble if i'm not using every icon as it refreshes with keeping agro off of t3/t4 people. I'm glad the OP put this up. It's an interesting topic especially due to the fact we can adjust our roles a bit with the new AA's to output more than we used to. If anyone has any feedback on how they've ranked in parsers since they've added the new AA's, I for one would be interested in seeing where they think we fall in the list now.

Mistmoore-Milaga · 03-29-2006, 10:21 AM

My point was merely that It's not a worthwhile discussion to compare ourselves to non-tanks in terms of DPS. At least, I did not think it a worthwhile discussion. I am glad Dragonlord got their question answered however. I am just a little unnerved that someone pointing out that we can, if we choose to limit ourselves in other ways, do more damage than other non-tank/healer classes might cause a nerf bat to swing down and swat the enjoyment I am getting from my SK away.

Claymus · 03-29-2006, 05:54 PM

A monk in our guild out parsed a ranger, a wizard, a swashbuckler, and a brigand yesterday fighting the dragon in MOA last trial. While i have seen a incrediable increase in dps with the spell crit aa, I doubt we are the only ones getting benefits. Other classes will figure there "dps version" out just like we did, our was just a bit more obvious i think.

Terabithi · 03-29-2006, 08:41 PM

Well, in short, the answer is no, the list is not accurate.As far as a bard out-dps'ing or even keeping up with an sk, forget about it. Not even on their best day. I play both, and I know. A shadowknight will out-damage a bard unless being played by a complete imbicile.That list is horrid. Look where they put chanters. lol. furies? lol. Nope. Bad list. Bad.

Ultimatum · 03-29-2006, 09:01 PM

If I were to make a *somewhat* educated guess, I'd go with something like:T1: Ranger, Wizard, Warlock, NecromancerT2: Brigand, Conjurer, Bruiser, Assassin, ShadowknightT3: Troubador, Dirge, Berserker, Swashbuckler, MonkT4: Illusionist, Coercer, PaladinT5: Mystic, Defiler, Warden, Fury, GuardianT6: Templar, InquisitorI'm not too sure about the healer classes DPS, but from what I've seen in parses, this is my outlook on DPS tiers.

Message Edited by Razerblaze on 03-29-200601:19 PM

Nostarn · 03-29-2006, 09:52 PM

I definitely understand your position Milaga. I talked to my wife (70 Coercer) about this list and some of the comments and she raises a valid point. Every class board has someone with the "right" configuration of gear/spells/situation showing a parse where they out dps every other class. So for us, with the right setup, we can do decent dps, but in most situations, the tanking obviously takes priority. I'm just glad they opened up options for us to play different roles in a group/raid setting. (Btw i'm also totally loving being a sk right now, i like how i fit in with my guildies in both group and raid settings)

Impetus · 03-30-2006, 01:21 AM

Here are the official DPS tiers as posted by Moorgard way back when. (Note that there are rankings within a tier, and note that these are somewhat situational.)

First group:* Wizard/Warlock* Assassin/RangerSecond group:* Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet)* Brigand/SwashbucklerThird group:* Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet)* Troubador/Dirge* Bruiser/MonkFourth group:* Berserker/Shadowknight* Paladin/GuardianFifth group:* Fury/Warden* Defiler/Mystic* Inquisitor/Templar

Now whether the current game conforms to these tiers, obviously that's a matter of opinion and debate. (I'm not going to post anything about that, just wanted to show what the tiers are "intended" to be.)

Message Edited by Impetus on 03-29-200603:24 PM

dagoo7 · 03-30-2006, 01:59 AM

Razerblaze wrote:
If I were to make a *somewhat* educated guess, I'd go with something like:T1: Ranger, Wizard, Warlock, NecromancerT2: Brigand, Conjurer, Bruiser, Monk, ShadowknightT3: Troubador, Dirge, Assassin, Berserker, SwashbucklerT4: Illusionist, Coercer, PaladinT5: Mystic, Defiler, Warden, Fury, GuardianT6: Templar, InquisitorI'm not too sure about the healer classes DPS, but from what I've seen in parses, this is my outlook on DPS tiers.
Message Edited by Razerblaze on 03-29-200612:31 PM

OK, I guess ... But [Removed for Content] is with your placement of swashbuckler and assassin. I have both a monk and a swash and the swash does hands down way more dps than any monk (at the cost of being much more squishy). And just as upsetting, you've got brigands at top of tier 2. They get better stuns and debuffs, but swashes do at least as much, if not more dps. Assassin in a group should do way more damage than a brigand or monk. Kinda leads one to question the rest of your assertions/assumptions.

Ultimatum · 03-30-2006, 02:18 AM

Thats why I said this list was based off my personal outlook on parses I've seen SMILEY

Taking into account the Brigand's lvl 65 special (If your brigands name their pets something else, you will have to add those numers in manually as opposed to the parser doing it automatically if they name the pet the same as their own name) Out Brigand does exceptional DPS. Of course these "tiers" are going to be different between raids due to different equipment setup and play styles. Also, now that I think about it, I might switch Assassins and Monks, but from what I've seen, Bruisers and Brigands definately rival Assassins on DPS.

03-28-2006, 09:06 AM	#2
Ultimatum Server: Nagafen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 284	Bards should rarely if ever outparse a SK maxing damage crits. The only classes that regularly outdamage me on raids are Rangers, Warlocks, Brigands, Bruisers, and occasionally summoners (though with their spel crits nerfed in LU21 I don't think they are going to be close anymore. Different play styles have a big impact on this though, but for the most part, SKs are at least Tier 3, possibly even T2 DPS at this point. __________________

03-28-2006, 01:38 PM	#4
Ultimatum Server: Nagafen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 284	Not really. If you check in on the ranger boards, "Average" ranger DPS is 600ish. Above Average DPS is 1000-1200. How is this any different. I don't think its game breaking if different ly geared SKs are doing much different damage, I'ts all about choice and play style. and if it IS gamebreaking then it SHOULD get looked at. people trying to hide beneficial bugs and exploits is detrimental to the game as a whole. WHat would have happened if the whole relic armor thing was kept under wraps....it would likely still be going on. the only people who complain about things like this are either 1) Jealous or 2) insecure in how they can play their class after things get fixed to where they should be. Apparently thig is intended anyway because last LU the conjurer AA for spell crits was changed from 100% to 12.5% at max level while the SK one was untouched. __________________

03-28-2006, 07:12 PM	#6
Dragonlor General Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 95	Razerblaze wrote: and if it IS gamebreaking then it SHOULD get looked at. people trying to hide beneficial bugs and exploits is detrimental to the game as a whole. WHat would have happened if the whole relic armor thing was kept under wraps....it would likely still be going on. the only people who complain about things like this are either 1) Jealous or 2) insecure in how they can play their class after things get fixed to where they should be. Razer, I could not agree more with the honesty of your post and that is a good attitude to see on these boards (rare, but great to see). Milaga wrote: "That's not why I picked my class...The answer is - who cares? Not really much reason to compare two completely different class and their damage ability." Milaga, as far as whether comparing two different classes is worthwhile or not....well it is for me. You don't have to jump on board nor do you understand why I asked the question. With 1 character slot left, I am weighing my options and DPS is part of the equation for me enjoying this game. There are other factors, but this post wanted to see where the three classes stood according to DPS since I did not feel that the SK was a T5 DPS class overall. The replies have helped me gather info to make my final class choice and I appreciate the inputs! Message Edited by Dragonlord1 on 03-28-200606:14 AM

03-28-2006, 11:09 PM	#7
Nostarn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 56	One of the big problems i have with saying it doesn't matter is that we group with people from all 6 tiers. And even though our DPS output might not be our primary function in all situations, our dps is very important to me. Primarily in the setting you describe Milaga, we are Tanks and the big reason i want to know where i stand with dps is to hold agro. If you haven't noticed, there have been a few posts about our agro ability and if you stand there and cycle through your taunts and just auto attack, you will not hold agro. I am working on the Int AA line to get my crits to 100% so that i can hold agro better through dps. I am constantly working my butt off and using rescue/HT to keep the agro from jumping to the T1/T2 people. Sometimes i even have trouble if i'm not using every icon as it refreshes with keeping agro off of t3/t4 people. I'm glad the OP put this up. It's an interesting topic especially due to the fact we can adjust our roles a bit with the new AA's to output more than we used to. If anyone has any feedback on how they've ranked in parsers since they've added the new AA's, I for one would be interested in seeing where they think we fall in the list now. __________________

03-29-2006, 08:41 PM	#10
Terabithi General Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 67	Well, in short, the answer is no, the list is not accurate.As far as a bard out-dps'ing or even keeping up with an sk, forget about it. Not even on their best day. I play both, and I know. A shadowknight will out-damage a bard unless being played by a complete imbicile.That list is horrid. Look where they put chanters. lol. furies? lol. Nope. Bad list. Bad. __________________

03-28-2006, 08:47 AM	#1
Dragonlor General Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 95	The first part of my question is if anyone can tell me if the following DPS tier listing is still (or was it ever) accurate. I got this from another thread after doing a search for DPS tiers. I have never seen an official source comment on this tier system so I do not know its accuracy/veracity. T1: Assassins, Rangers, Wizards, WarlocksT2: Conjurer, Necro, Swash, BrigandT3: Troubadour, Dirge, Illusionist, CoercerT4: Furies and BruisersT5: Mystics, Defilers, Shadowknights, Monk, Wardens, BerzerkersT6: Guardians, Templars, Paladins More specifically, my question revolves around the total DPS produced by the dirge vs the troubadour vs the Shadowknight. By total DPS I mean just that - all the damage from spells, melee, and ranged combat available to the class. Do both the bardic classes really out DPS the shadowknights (tank variety and new battlemage build trend)? Thanks!

03-28-2006, 10:31 AM	#3
Diern General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	Posting things like that is a good way to get us unwanted attention and nerfs.

03-28-2006, 02:47 PM	#5
Mistmoore-Milaga Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 369	We are tanks. Frankly, I don't care where we rank in the tiering of damage because that's not really our primary function. That's not why I picked my class. While I am comfortable with the amount of damage I do now and the sacrifices I make to get there. Should we do more damage, as a hybrid type tank class than a hybrid/utility scout class?EDIT: The answer is - who cares? Not really much reason to compare two completely different class and their damage ability. Message Edited by Milaga on 03-28-200601:54 AM

03-29-2006, 10:21 AM	#8
Mistmoore-Milaga Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 369	My point was merely that It's not a worthwhile discussion to compare ourselves to non-tanks in terms of DPS. At least, I did not think it a worthwhile discussion. I am glad Dragonlord got their question answered however. I am just a little unnerved that someone pointing out that we can, if we choose to limit ourselves in other ways, do more damage than other non-tank/healer classes might cause a nerf bat to swing down and swat the enjoyment I am getting from my SK away.

03-29-2006, 05:54 PM	#9
Claymus Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 25	A monk in our guild out parsed a ranger, a wizard, a swashbuckler, and a brigand yesterday fighting the dragon in MOA last trial. While i have seen a incrediable increase in dps with the spell crit aa, I doubt we are the only ones getting benefits. Other classes will figure there "dps version" out just like we did, our was just a bit more obvious i think.

03-29-2006, 09:01 PM	#11
Ultimatum Server: Nagafen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 284	If I were to make a somewhat educated guess, I'd go with something like:T1: Ranger, Wizard, Warlock, NecromancerT2: Brigand, Conjurer, Bruiser, Assassin, ShadowknightT3: Troubador, Dirge, Berserker, Swashbuckler, MonkT4: Illusionist, Coercer, PaladinT5: Mystic, Defiler, Warden, Fury, GuardianT6: Templar, InquisitorI'm not too sure about the healer classes DPS, but from what I've seen in parses, this is my outlook on DPS tiers. Message Edited by Razerblaze on 03-29-200601:19 PM __________________

03-29-2006, 09:52 PM	#12
Nostarn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 56	I definitely understand your position Milaga. I talked to my wife (70 Coercer) about this list and some of the comments and she raises a valid point. Every class board has someone with the "right" configuration of gear/spells/situation showing a parse where they out dps every other class. So for us, with the right setup, we can do decent dps, but in most situations, the tanking obviously takes priority. I'm just glad they opened up options for us to play different roles in a group/raid setting. (Btw i'm also totally loving being a sk right now, i like how i fit in with my guildies in both group and raid settings) __________________

03-30-2006, 01:21 AM	#13
Impetus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 340	Here are the official DPS tiers as posted by Moorgard way back when. (Note that there are rankings within a tier, and note that these are somewhat situational.) First group:* Wizard/Warlock* Assassin/RangerSecond group:* Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet)* Brigand/SwashbucklerThird group:* Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet)* Troubador/Dirge* Bruiser/MonkFourth group:* Berserker/Shadowknight* Paladin/GuardianFifth group:* Fury/Warden* Defiler/Mystic* Inquisitor/Templar Now whether the current game conforms to these tiers, obviously that's a matter of opinion and debate. (I'm not going to post anything about that, just wanted to show what the tiers are "intended" to be.) Message Edited by Impetus on 03-29-200603:24 PM __________________ ------------------------------------------------------ Aylowan, 70 Illusionist, Blackburrow

03-30-2006, 01:59 AM	#14
dagoo7 Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 157	Razerblaze wrote: If I were to make a somewhat educated guess, I'd go with something like:T1: Ranger, Wizard, Warlock, NecromancerT2: Brigand, Conjurer, Bruiser, Monk, ShadowknightT3: Troubador, Dirge, Assassin, Berserker, SwashbucklerT4: Illusionist, Coercer, PaladinT5: Mystic, Defiler, Warden, Fury, GuardianT6: Templar, InquisitorI'm not too sure about the healer classes DPS, but from what I've seen in parses, this is my outlook on DPS tiers. Message Edited by Razerblaze on 03-29-200612:31 PM OK, I guess ... But [Removed for Content] is with your placement of swashbuckler and assassin. I have both a monk and a swash and the swash does hands down way more dps than any monk (at the cost of being much more squishy). And just as upsetting, you've got brigands at top of tier 2. They get better stuns and debuffs, but swashes do at least as much, if not more dps. Assassin in a group should do way more damage than a brigand or monk. Kinda leads one to question the rest of your assertions/assumptions.

03-30-2006, 02:18 AM	#15
Ultimatum Server: Nagafen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 284	Thats why I said this list was based off my personal outlook on parses I've seen Taking into account the Brigand's lvl 65 special (If your brigands name their pets something else, you will have to add those numers in manually as opposed to the parser doing it automatically if they name the pet the same as their own name) Out Brigand does exceptional DPS. Of course these "tiers" are going to be different between raids due to different equipment setup and play styles. Also, now that I think about it, I might switch Assassins and Monks, but from what I've seen, Bruisers and Brigands definately rival Assassins on DPS. __________________