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10-06-2005, 06:22 PM
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#1 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 75
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Now before i start this Thread i will simply say ive heard this same argument From Guardians Zekrkers and Paly's. This is not a Gripe thread it is simply to bring this to the attention of the community the reality of how plate tanks are working. From the expierence of alot of us in our guild and from outside info i have from other guilds as well. From what we figure mitigation has less affect in your ability to absorb damage then avoidance does when tanking mobs epic or otherwise. We have put our bruiser on the front on the same mobs and then put me up against the same. here is what we found His Mitigation at 1689 Avoidance at 71 percent buffed . My Stats in defensive mode with Shield 2899 mit, 34.2 percent avoidance. The Bruiser will always out last me with no heals. everytime even with my life taps blazing away. though i stomp him in a duel Mobs seem to run of a different script as far as mitigation goes. With healers stringing away there heals and me tanking verse him they use less power , approximately 15 percent less with Bruiser tanking. Not only does he tank better he will steal aggro about everytime unless he holds back his DPS until i get hate well established with all my TOT's. Two things are a Concern here If we cannot raise our avoidance in plate higher then 40 percent we will never stand up against a leather wearing warrior lol. they will always out tank us. it seems Bazaar that a DPS class can handle hits as well or better in some cases. Now mind you these experiments were done in the clefts on Triple up mobs in well balanced group. We had a different expierence with Broog only because i had mana Sieve and was able to keep my power going for a few life taps here and there. Though me and the bruiser both suspect once i am using Imbued Cobalt weapon The aggro will be less of a problem as my Increased DPS will better establish hate. but we are both in agreement that right now It seems avoidance is doing Kaka past a certain point . I suspect thoug it is just an opinion. Mobs Must have a cap on Mitigation that they ignore anything past 2200 or so. It appears Avoidance is not running on the same scale. Please Do not flame the thread just post your Expierences and Strategy's you are using . I did read in a previous thread that there is very hard to Parse the Crusader classes in this reguard and in the posters opinion we were the class that required the most skill. Id like to hear some tricks and strategy's from the Community.:smileyhappy:
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10-06-2005, 10:34 PM
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#2 |
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66
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For the Bruiser, they are probably picking up AGI over other stats. The SK is probably picking up more STR than other stats. Thats the biggest part of the unbalancing. I have a Bruiser and a SK and it seems to me that it's easier to get AGI items for the bruiser than anything else like the bone batons have +AGI stats and they are duel wield so you have 2. Bruisers can have a ranged weapon, so I put in the ranged weapon with the highest AGI (+7, for level 20-30). To that, add 2 AGI hex dolls, where a SK would get STR hex dolls. SKs cannot hold any ranged weapons thus have no ability to buff this way. The SK weapons tend to be +STR which adds in no way to tanking ability. Basically, what I'm getting at is that it's a lot easier for a bruiser to stack AGI and it makes sense because you're already severely limited on your mitigation. Whereas the SK has an oppurtunity to chose the highest mitgation and usually will. This leads to a bunch of across the board bonuses which leaves every stat in the middle range. Of coarse the bruiser is a better tank from AGI because they'll stack that and it helps tanking and SKs stack STR which does nothing for tanking. I did however stack my AGI with respec and it did wonders. It could be better if I picked up some AGI hex dolls but i'm constantly broke and can't afford them. The SKs arent thinking like a tank should if they want to tank. Most SKs seem to be concerned with DPS and power pool. I agree most Bruisers will inherently be better tanks but that statement will not be absolutely true.
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10-07-2005, 09:40 AM
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#3 |
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General
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 67
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"please do not flame the thread...."
Look, the fact that you're even spending time doing this sickens me. Completely. Do you actually go to bed at night thinking to yourself...."geez, I really like EQ2, but bruisers tank better than I do..." What the hell is WRONG with you?? That being said, let me help you out a bit. First of all, in a REAL LIFE situation, an agile lightly-clad person is going to avoid hits in melee combat far better than the person wearing 500 pounds of metal....but the metal-clad person will feel much less pain from the hits that are landing. Sound familiar? He's "tanking" better because he gets hit less. If he got hit as often as you, he'd have been dead long ago. Secondly, you are wrong to classify bruisers as a DPS class. They are just as much of a tank class as you are. You're both fighters. BOTH FIGHTERS. As a scout class, I'd gladly trade a bit of my avoidence for some plate-class mitigation, because the few hits I do take hurt like heck. So then your argument is what exactly? that you should be getting hit less? or that the bruiser should be getting hit more? This is SO STUPID to even be discussing. I also can't help but notice that you never took your own talent as a player into account. Perhaps you're not a very good shadowknight. Maybe your agi is too low. Maybe the type of mob you are fighting is better suited for a bruiser to tank. There are literally dozens of factors to consider. This analysis is a colossal waste of time. So yes, I'm flaming you. I'm flaming you because you had the balls to post this stupid thread in an effort to feel like you're "fixing" something. If you were a guardian (the poor [Removed for Content]....) then I might have sympathy for you. That class is by far the most unbalanced and in need of help in the game. Your shadowknight is just fine, and your jealousy of the bruiser's avoidence is silly. Next time you kill that bruiser in the 1000th duel, yell "avoid THIS!!" as you HT him into oblivion. In the meantime, find a hobby....or go outside and meet girls.
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10-07-2005, 12:29 PM
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#4 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 303
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Do me a favor, if you are a scout post on your own board, we don't need this crap on our boards, tyvm for you consideration but when you go name calling over something stupid, well, lets just say you aren't any better than him, its his 2cp and really no matter what you say it wont affect that, just please don't ever post stupid crap like this again, be respectful |
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10-07-2005, 03:04 PM
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#5 |
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General
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 67
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heeeeeey now shorty, I have a shadowknight toon, which I am quite fond of, and that is why I check this board out. and while I agree with you that namecalling brings me down to the level of the original poster....I just couldn't resist. I will try to let my more mature and dignified side respond more often. (heyyyyy wait a minute. now that I read my post, I realize I never used namecalling!! granted, it was hostile, and granted, the part about the girls was a bit over the top....but I didn't use a single name. crap. A blown oppurtunity. lol.) Message Edited by Terabithian on 10-07-2005 04:07 AM
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10-07-2005, 03:20 PM
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#6 |
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General
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 33
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Why have you flamed, the post doesnt even come across as a moan, hes just stating facts.
"in a REAL LIFE situation, an agile lightly-clad person is going to avoid hits in melee combat far better than the person wearing 500 pounds of metal" In a real life sitution we wouldnt be fighting against 20 foot giants with axes that are double our size, i dont actually think it would matter what armour you had on both will die. "So then your argument is what exactly? that you should be getting hit less? or that the bruiser should be getting hit more? This is SO STUPID to even be discussing." If anything his post was analytical of maybe whats to come in the future for us. Stating hes tested and discussed with bruisers. He isnt saying we suck etc, hes trying to get an info so we can set ourselves limits to try to push. If you cant see that maybe you didnt read it fully, you just wanted a good flame. ---lvl 53 with lazy sigmaker--- Message Edited by Dijitalis on 10-07-2005 12:21 PM |
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10-07-2005, 06:21 PM
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#7 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 75
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Well gee , that guys an idiot. thanks guys for spending your time to point out his rash response. In no way am i saying SK sucks By far we got the better end of the revamp. we did a bit more testing last night though the Bruiser is out leveling me fast , He plays alot more. It has been stated recently on the Dev boards that they are watching the Mitigation issues. we are gonna try to get some one from the other guilds we know who is 56 and in full cobalt to compare against, Class does not matter as this was never a SK sucks thread . If any of you have feedback id be most appreciative. also if any of you have any tricks for aggro holding please post we are going to doa little aggro test here as well when i purchase my Cobalt battle axe and see if the increased DPS helps in holding aggro. right now any DPS class in our Guild steals aggro mid way through even with Delayed engagement and spamm taunting. thanks for your help again guys. |
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10-07-2005, 06:27 PM
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#8 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: West Valley City, UT
Posts: 27
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I'm a 42 sk, and honestly the best way to hold agro and be the tank in the group is to communicate with the group. Everyone wants the mobs to go down as fast as possible, but you need to outweigh the speed for efficiency, they don't always match up. It takes longer to wait for the healer to regen for power, than to ask the bruiser and warlck to use less dps. And it generally works for me. Good luck!
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10-07-2005, 08:27 PM
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#9 |
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66
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Personally, I don't feel that SK is suppose to be a tanking class. As a person pointed out, if a SK is choosing AGI (like myself), they are not going to be a raid person. Although, I chose all AGI and WIS to increase my tanking ability because I mostly solo and group with occassional raiding. My DPS is fine and I was recently complimented by a wiz for being "one of the good SKs at tanking" because we got massive amounts of xp without dying and we took on sizable groups without a healer. (He was very good at his dps job too. It wouldn't have worked as well with someone paying less attention). Although I chose AGI, I did sacrifice some dps but I don't feel that it gimped me for dps since I do still solo alright. I simply feel that the SK is not suppose to be great at anyone thing since it is a hybrid class and that's the way it is. The one thing that they SK is suppose to be good at is Hate and that we are not.....
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10-07-2005, 09:33 PM
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#10 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 178
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According to Sony we are not Hybrids but are our own class. That being said, even if we were considered a Hybrid, that term is very subjective. Depending on your view, the two halfs can be less then or greater then the whole of a pure class. Basicly, you could take a tank in Medium armor, add magic and end up with a tank in the end result that is greater then the tank in heavy plate. But again its all subjective and best to leave it out of talks. I think the post that started all this was just a person stating his observations and is taking the time to study what he precives more in depth with the help of others and is stating his findings as he goes along. That is not only good work but a good idea, not only for us to understand how we stack but so that the Devs may get some input and see if their planned role for us is going as planned or if things need to be tweeked more. |
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10-07-2005, 11:19 PM
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#11 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 648
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I am one of those people that really really hate the term Hybrid. The reason is that from my experiance in EQ1 when you are a hybrid, your skills are great at lower levels, but once you reach your upper levels you don't really fill a spot well. In Eq1 I played a paladin, up to 66, and at the end I seemed to have less aggro then warriors (after the warrior revamp), less hp's, less mitigation, and in return I had really crappy heals, poor disc, and a single buff that was wanted, and the worst dps in the game. So at the end I was a there for emergency rez, and maybe using a root once in while in the raid enviroment. Can't really speak about Shadow Knights in EQ1 due to I never played one. From my perspective hybrid means your really don't do anything very good, and your supposed utility is usally not that impressive. I much prefer being thought of as part of the fighter tree vs a hybrid. Just my 2cp. V/R Blackoath Message Edited by Margen on 10-07-2005 12:19 PM
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Blackoath Uglyone 80 Shadow Knight of Chaos Phang 80 Swashbuckler of Chaos You EVER going to fix SKs Sony? |
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10-08-2005, 12:00 AM
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#12 |
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66
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I stand by my belief that they are Hybrids. I feel no shame at being good at the "all around" event. But i'm going to argue it. So suppose that SKs are a class of their own, What are they better at than anyone else? I'll go into some incomplete thoughts. There are 2 types of toons, melee and magic. There are 4-5 areas to be good at: Tank, DPS, Heals (buffs(5th)), Crowd control (buffs). Breaking this down: Magic --> Tank (none), DPS ( wiz, sorc), Heals / buffs(temp, sham), Crowd Control / buffs (enc) Melee --> Tank (Guard / zerk, then Bruiser/monk/Pala, then lastly SK), DPS (all scouts), Heals / buffs(none), Crowd Control / buffs (none unless taunt is counted then SK is last again) So what is the class definining attribute? Well, we have lifetaps but that trades DPS for self heals which is good only when tanking but SKs are not good tanks and should not be tanking raids...??!!! Too contradictory. My feign death kills me 95%. Well, it's grey anyhow. My horse has not worked for 10s of levels. What defines SKs to me is suppose to be Hate and we don't have that. If necessary, Should we be able to yank aggro from the MT or from others if (s)he is in trouble ? The rescue only moves you up one spot on the hate list if it's working now. That is only usefull when duoing because a scout or wiz can out dps you anyday and you need to make it past the tank and wiz on the hate list if the wiz power nukes past the MT. The MT will get the aggro back first with taunts. So, the 2 class defining attributes of lifetap and hate are not in the game in a class defining way. With lifetap trading dps for self-heals and trading self heals for tanking ability. The pet is definitely gimped when compared to a NEC. What defines the SK and make them a class of their own? Hate is the only possibility left. Not to mention we have no FEAR effects. I feel that creatures that would attack a wizard (of equal level to the me the SK) should fear and run from me. They are casters and melee and everyone is crying about not completing with the guardians or scouts. Tank => Guardian,zerk DPS => scout,wiz. My view is that SK is a Hybrid class as is. If they say that it's a class into and of its own, MAKE IT THAT WAY. I don't mind if it is or not, I won't feel left out. I just want to have it feel like a SK and that I'm not an SK trying to be a guardian. I would have been a guardian if that's what I wanted. Give me the hate. Have I missed something? Message Edited by Kinvenu on 10-07-2005 01:07 PM |
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10-08-2005, 02:40 AM
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#13 |
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General
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 67
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folks, there is no such thing as "tanking" anymore. Adjust to it. "Avoidence" is always better than "mitigation". Look up the words. Heck, my main is a troubadour, and I can even tank if needed, due to my avoidence.
I guess my answer to your problem would be to suggest that brawlers should have a hitpoint penalty to compensate for their avoidence boost.
but yes....ditch the idea of tanking. it is an archaic term that bears NO MEANING anymore. (unless you're a guardian. lol)
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10-08-2005, 03:37 AM
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#14 |
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66
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That was my suggestion. Add AGI. But SKs seem to hate for people to say that. :smileymad: Some seem to think it [Removed for Content] them for dps or for raids.
I guess they made rescue add 3 positions, not 1. Message Edited by Kinvenu on 10-07-2005 07:06 PM |
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10-09-2005, 01:10 AM
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#15 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 303
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Start wearing leather armor... Sorry hahaha I had to say it, im JK
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10-09-2005, 06:45 AM
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#16 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 75
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Darn good idea , up our taunts and add us a fear . solid suggestion For SK. But mitigation across the board needs to be addressed. In my opinion chain wearing classes should not be Frontlining better then a plate wearer thats completely backwards. And Further more a leather wearing Monk should not be handling Hits better then a guardian Zerker or SK for that matter. across the board on the Server i am getting same feedback the DPS fighter and scouts are handling as well or better then Plate weare. Id like to hear more From you guys, maybe some Simple experiments . Best way to Guage it is ask the healers what the Ratio of power they use. thanks guys |
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10-10-2005, 05:05 AM
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#17 |
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66
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My main is a SK and was in EQ1. The SK was not the best tank then either and don't expect it. I also play a bruiser alt. and it makes sense to me that the Bruisers / monks tank better. They have a self heal which is decent and on a good timer if they at least get the adept 1. They have AGI out the roof compared to the SK and can easily get 50-70% avoidance with buffs. I'm happy to have 35% avoidance. Don't tell me to wear leather armor. lol. I bought a set at one point. The heavy plate actually has higher stats than the lighter stuff. The brawlers have a FD that actually works. And they have a skill that consumes 1 concentration and it's 25% to proc for a taunt. At level 22, i believe it's about +53 on the hate. So on average, it's a free taunt. I don't see mitigation as the only thing that makes you a better frontliner. As you know it's also your AGI and resists (WIS). I don't think that the SK is suppose to be a comparable tank. The SK is trading some of these abilities to have other skills. Personally, i got all AGI and some WIS on respec and got 2 AGI hex dolls. I also made sure that my lifetaps are at least adept 1. Add AGI food and woot! Having my AGI higher than my STR works well for me. If SOE is dead set on the idea that the SK is a "class of its own", then the class defining attribute is that they do nothing better than any other class. I would prefer SOE to examine that issue over trying to make mitigation the key factor to tanking. |
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10-11-2005, 03:34 AM
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#18 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 408
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Lets get one thing straight. a Shadowknight is a tank. Period. We trade up being not quite as powerful on the Physical side for Black magic and vampiric abilities that strengthen us at the expense of our foes. Which should more than compensate for this. I think the whole idea of a Monk, bruiser Tanking is ludicruous myself. How does it make sense? Imagine a little guy in a loin cloth taking on a Dragon with his fists... Please. I blame the Kung-fu craze of the 70's-80's for infecting the fantasy genre. Really how can you avoid/block a dragons breath weapon? I really wish they had added the brawler path to the DPS bracket. Now, Give me Agro supremacy, Invisibility, fear, shadow step in other words all the holes left from EQ1 and Ill be happy. |
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10-11-2005, 06:30 AM
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#19 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 75
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absloutely right Din we are tanks. Most of the Bruiser's i know are saying the same thing, They should be in the DPS line, but they are not. Now as Tanking in no way should thye be Avoiding so much Damage they out mitgate any plate class. Devs are aware of the problem . Lets see if they fix the plate wearers. Not just SK but all of them. As far as the taunts in the Prima Strategy guide (now mind you this is not SOE written) We are Described as the epitomy of hate and fear that our mere Prescence curdles the blood of our foes. No the only thing i am getting to hate me are the guys with Bruiser alts or Scouts trolling. and Just about everyone in my guild when we duel lol:smileyhappy:
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10-11-2005, 08:59 PM
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#20 |
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66
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You must be refering to me as the ""Bruiser alts... trolling". [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you. I'm not trolling. I'm stating my opinion. The SKs weren't tanks in EQ1. You whine because the SK can't taunt worth [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. You whine because you can't take melee hits. You say they can't do things a proper tank should do but claim that it is a tank. If it smells like a duck, walks like a duck, then it must be a duck. If it smells like a hybrid, walks like a hybrid, it must be a hybrid. This is my last post in any response to Xiziz. |
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10-12-2005, 02:11 AM
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#21 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 43
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We *are* tanks...we sure aren't DPS any more. As far as agro control and staying alive goes, I don't have much of a problem when I look at the rest of the plate tanks. Where I have an issue is with the avoidance tanks. I had a much longer post that apparently got eaten, but the jist of it was simple. Avoidance guys get 360 that we don't get. This, imo is one of the main problems, and one of the things that helps them take so much less damage. Their DPS is also much higher, and this allows them to snag aggro with ease. I was actually grouped last night with a 59 bruiser (I'm a 57 sk) who stated that he didn't want to tank, and actively attempted to avoid it--and didn't have his hate procing buff on--I asked about that when he said that he didn't want to tank. Guess what? He ended up tanking anyway, and there was *nothing* I could do about it. These fights were parsed, btw, and on *solo* mobs he was clocking 300-400 dps each time, wasn't going through the power like I was, and when he did get aggro, didn't have any health spike issues. I do not feel that the mit tanks are on par with the avoidance tanks. Their DPS alone dictates better aggro control. If we're all supposed to have equivalent abilities, I think looking at the level of avoidance we do get is a part of the tanking part, coupled with the fact that we get slammed from the rear...maybe something is inherently bugged for us, dunno on that. DPS itself is another issue too...we'll all (tanks) be competing for raid slots, and face it, there are only so many tank spots per raid to go around. I don't want to be the fat kid for another 10 months who gets to raid when a DPS can't make it--or the monk/bruiser is sick. The way the CU was supposed to go was that no one was supposed to have a clear advantage in every situation. They failed in that, I think, and I have to say that I agree with the guardians on their forums in many respects--once I wade through and ignore the posts by the ones who still think that they should be *best* because of the class they chose. Its going to be interesting to see if any adjustments get done. I enjoy levelling, but once that is done? I dont' think I have another 10 months or so to wait to get picked for the team. |
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10-12-2005, 02:25 AM
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#22 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 408
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You must have been playing a completely different game from me then. I played a Shadowknight in EQ1 for 4 years (still do occasionally.) Often as the Main Tank for my guilds raids. I was 95% Main tank in all group situations I found myself in. Many people would take me over a warrior because they knew if I was tanking they would be safe, and enjoy fast effcient XP. Please enlighten me how this justifys your statement... The Shadowknight was arguably the most efficent XP tank to recruit as we would help the group kill alot faster and required less "maintenance" due to our lifetaps. We could hold our own quite well in raids even better than warriors in certain situations due to our unique abilities. We were excellent in the Off-tank role and the ultimate "excrement hits the fan" tank. Ive lost count how many times my quick thinking and agro control saved the day when a mob, or even a group of mobs turned on our healers. The Shadowknight took finese to play, and there were many bad sk players which gave us a bad reputation at times, but we were a great tank! Please pass me what ever you are smoking cause it must be good. Message Edited by Diernes on 10-12-2005 11:28 AM |
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10-12-2005, 08:05 AM
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#23 |
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 66
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I did tank as an SK but I always realized that there were better tanks, I became more of a role player and embraced the hate and fear. Oh yeah, fear kiting was possible. If you must insult me by suggesting I am smoking something. I will not continue this thread at all. Bottom line was that the SK was not the best tank in EQ1. Keep up your whining. i'm gone.
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10-12-2005, 06:28 PM
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#24 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 75
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kin your so hostile it cofuses me. No one is saying Sk sucks no one is saying Bruisers or chain DPS classes should be changed or nerfed. there is a recognized problem across the Board By The Devs in reguards to Mitigation tanks. Its not just SK its all plate wearing Frontline players. SK is a tank and we are suppose to be a class unique not a hybrid like in EQ 1 why dont you follow the Dev diaries back before the game was even released. I played a wiz to 60 in EQ 1 and had an SK alt . So i Do have knowledge of both Games. Dont be so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hostile , the response was not Directed at you , Ive taken alot of heat on the Boards from other posters so it was a back handed comment meant for the guys who have flamed me for posting Opinions based on Parsed expierments.The bottom line is the class has gotten a major Fix with the revamp man i am as happy as a clam with it. But there are issues across the board with Mit tanks. In no way do i ever epect them to fix any of it. But i will post opions and the things ive found doing little tests here and there. Really the only thing Wrong with SK is the in ability to hold aggro , That is a major problem as people do not want to wait on DPS, ing until our reactive hate starts to build. they would rather have a Bruiser or Bezerker do the job. My opinion due away with the crap we should not have in the first place like Evac and some of the group crap. At least we arent in the posistion of heard some of the guardians have been from the feed back i get from them its horrid. So chill Bud i am not trying to cause Problems i simply would like t hear feed back from other Sk's . since ive been accused of not knowing how to play SK i figured hell ill ask the community if they expierence the same thing? what tricks are they using ? What Strategy's?
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10-13-2005, 01:20 AM
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#25 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 408
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The best tanks in EQ had nothing to do with class, and everything to do with Player Skill and quick thinking. But seriously man chill out. Someone makes a statement like that and you'll be sure to have me firing on all guns. People are still too preoccupied about what statistically makes the best tank. Id take a well played Guardian over a slow and stupid bruiser player anyday. The DPS arguement needs to stop right now however, and with it the whole notion of Hybrid. Even in EQ 1 towards the end sony started to move away from the hybrid Idea, and gave Shadowknights there own spells and abilities as opposed too lower level Necromancer spells. Because it generally looks good on paper but doesnt work when it comes too the game. Hybrids fall into the trap off not having a place in raids because the two halfs very rarely make a whole. The Shadowknight is a tank, we will never be "sustained" DPS so stop figting for it. The whole hybrid mindset needs to be extracted and the tanks made equal as sony promised they would. |
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10-13-2005, 04:34 AM
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#26 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 43
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Who's really asking for dps? Actually, I could care less about it--if all *fighters* are more or less equal, when they choose whatever role they are playing for the group/raid, then I will be happy. I.e., it is my belief that guards, zerks, pally's, sk's, monks, and bruisers, should be close when they choose either the offensive or defensive stances for whatever purpose. Who tanks better? ok, well, we all get specialities--and that coupled with the person behind the keys should be what determines the "best" tank for the circumstance. That's all I want--I want player skill to be that undefinable factor that makes someone a better tank, not the coded benefits that a class may or may not have been gifted with by sony. Hell in eq1 sk's weren't the "best" tank--on paper that is. But the thing about that game (which is different imo than in eq2) is that the factor of player skill went farther there than it does here. What I don't like is when there are vast disparities. One of the things in particular I'm annoyed about is the cost of mitigation, and the fact that it doesn't matter to avoidance if we wear leather or plate, our avoidance still sucks. Hey, if avoidance weren't such a key, what the hell would be *wrong* with a plate tank wearing lighter armor for an advantage? If there wasn't such a small difference between the mitigation of plate, chain and leather, we'd have avoidance, and our mit would suck. It would certainly be cheaper, more of it drops, and *if* avoidance is calculated correctly, then we'd be on the same footing with an avoidance tank. Instead, we either spend untold hours harvesting for those stepping stone cobalts, or pay through the nose for the armor--which, I notice, the other classes aren't obligated to do to perform their core functions. Mit you buy...most avoidance just happens, or is provided by stats. After the cost issue, and the equity, there really isn't that much to gripe about. Hey, if i use spells to do damage, or protect myself, great. If a zerker uses zerking ability to do that, fine. That kind of stuff is flavor, as long as the numbers and abilities are roughly the same. THIS is why guardians are [Removed for Content], and why I think they have a right to be. Hell, its why I'm not over all thrilled myself--as I said in another post, its looking like the great changes that they did indeed make for this class (hey, we got lifetaps that work, and are even useful!) don't really matter past 60--we'll have the same issues with raiding that we had before, only this time, we won't have kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] DPS to help us get a spot. And you know what? playing an sk levelling up right now is a hell of a lot more fun than it was when I was in my late 40's, and honestly levelling then didn't suck either. The problem was at the end of the game, when there were just some things that we couldn't do...or that we couldn't even begin to match a guardian, even a sucktastic one, on in the tanking realm. The point that I make is that for sustainability of that fun, we have *got* to have a role at 60, while we wait for the next expansion, and that can't be acting as equipment manager for our respective guild bruiser. Mind you, I dont' say nerf, tho sony has a track record in that area. I do say though, that I want relative equality. Trading DPS for tanking was cool in my book. When I made an SK, it was because I wanted to tank, not stand behind the monsters killing them like a skulking rogue. I think most people who chose fighters of any type chose it to tank...and that's why I was looking forward to the combat update! It's why I'm posting now, actually.
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10-13-2005, 06:56 AM
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#27 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 303
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Ok, here is what i need to share with you guys, i talked to a bruiser earlier or whatever is the subclass for monks from fp and i shared my thoughts with him and he completely agrees, here it is plain and simple: IRL I train with real swords, getting pretty good at it me and a good friend spar with real swords (except he wants them as dull edges, boring) and we hold our group pretty dang good, so here is what this situation was, put me (as a SK) in full metal armor and shield and sword up against someone with leather armor and 2 sticks, easily, i would win only because his leather armor cant endure crap when my metal armor takes every blow and i barely even feel a thing, easiest way to put it, i can understand monks have more avoidance, good point there but in the higher end they cant break much more than 1.5-2k mitigation, while SKs are way up there and past that by far with probably somewhere around 3-4k (i got info from some warriors in guild about that i know they arent SKs but sks cant be too far behind) that is DOUBLE the mitigation, if you ask me this is bs that just because monks can move faster dont mean they arent going to get hit for alot less cause that much mitigation doesnt show too much, at my level (22 SK) i have maybe 35-38% avoidance and that doesnt mean much to me other than my mitigation ehich is pretty high i was told for my level i dont remember exact numbers but its really good, and mobs ALOT of the time hit me, but cant deal any damage, better than misses imho |
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10-13-2005, 07:29 AM
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#28 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 408
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Plenty of people have been putting Shadowknight as a DPS prefered class on these forums take a look around. I was just making the point that needs to stop, we need to stop arguing about the Shadowknights role. Dont hold your breath for a unique role either. Sony was unable to find us a role in EQ1 for years. Its going to be the same all over again in this game I fear. We are a tank we need to push for that to become competitive. The best sony could actually come up with in EQ1 was our snap agro abilities. Ironically it was a class defining role that the SK community itself came up with by playing the game with methods that werent intended by the dev's. The EQ2 game is dumbed down now further so there are less roles available. leaving us with only tanking too push for. Sadly the DPS tank is almost impossible to balance. We arent really the DPS tank anymore (bruisers are). You either make them to weak or grossly overpowered. I doubt its a coincidence that one of the designers plays a buiser sadly .... This isnt a call to nerf bruisers however. I feel the rest of the tank classes should be seriously looked at and brought to their level PVE. Gnomemercy the way your post is worded Im not quite sure what you are trying to get at.
Message Edited by Diernes on 10-13-2005 04:34 PM |
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10-13-2005, 02:09 PM
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#29 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 43
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Heh, I think you misunderstood me. The role we need is simply "tank." Just like the other 5 classes. As I've said before, I think we're fine with the other mit tanks. I'm not seeking a class defining role. I'm just saying that we spent 10 months not doing alot in raids, other than staring at the backsides of monsters. yes yes, I know there were exceptions that proved the rule, but for the most part, that's the way it was. I do *not* want to spend the next 10 months forced to do the same, simply because logically there's always a better choice. I'm not unhappy with sk's btw. We're pretty cool. Fixing lifetaps (ok, making them actually useful) was one of the best things they did for us. Never forget tho, that we traded something for it...our dps. There are other classes that didn't seem to lose their dps in exchange for extended tankability, etc. And no, I'm not for a nerf either--same idea...balance. I'm unhappy with the inequities that I mentioned earlier.
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10-13-2005, 10:15 PM
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#30 |
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 4
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I picked dark elf over the ogre, barb and other high str/sta races because the dark elf has high agility which helps in parrying and blocking. I myself dont have any problems tanking for high level mobs... and as far as solo mobs are concerned well ... i just roll over them. For tanking purposes i suggest getting Agility first, Sta second, then STR, because your a tank not a damage dealer... i think this is where many people fail in their creation of making tanks.... they get high str so they hit harder... well that isnt your primary purpose, your primary purpose is to absorb the hits and stay alive and taunt like heck... damage is the least of your concerns unless you are soloing.
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