How powerful should ShadowKnight lifetaps be after the combat revamp?

Trivon · 07-18-2005, 06:12 PM

I think this is a very touchy issue atm for us ShadowKnights. Our lifetaps need to heal as much HP as atleast one hit from a regular enemy it does 275 damage to me at lvl 34. So having a lifetap once every 30 seconds heal me for 275 at lvl 34 and requires 50 power or so should be acceptable. Please post your thoughts.

I think ShadowKnights need an Lifetap over time. Something that last for 5 ticks and heals 50-100 per tick. Power consumption is key so that it can useful it needs to be very effecient. This type of spell fits into our SK persona. It should also stack with our current dots. Please post feedback on these ideas.

Exmortis_MT · 07-18-2005, 07:55 PM

Trivonus wrote:

I think this is a very touchy issue atm for us ShadowKnights. Our lifetaps need to heal as much HP as atleast one hit from a regular enemy it does 275 damage to me at lvl 34. So having a lifetap once every 30 seconds heal me for 275 at lvl 34 and requires 50 power or so should be acceptable. Please post your thoughts.

I think ShadowKnights need an Lifetap over time. Something that last for 5 ticks and heals 50-100 per tick. Power consumption is key so that it can useful it needs to be very effecient. This type of spell fits into our SK persona. It should also stack with our current dots. Please post feedback on these ideas.

This is a good subject, and its cornered around several key factors that must be explored.

- Lifetaps can be and are resisted, and when balanced against heals that must be taken into account. If the devs look to a 30% resist rate for our taps, then our taps should represent 30% more healing then the balanced heal against. As it is never resisted. Resist rates vary by mob/resistant types, but should equal out to an average. The Tap should represent an even keel with the heal given the chance of respective average mob resisting the tap. This allows for situations where the representnig balanced against heal will be better in a high resist mob to the spells use of elements (for arguements sake disease, posion are elements when in terms of EQ2 casters), alternatively a tap could be better in the case of a target whos very weak against that same resist element and coudl represent a better then normal tap ratio. also allowing partial resists allows for a slightly lower tap agianst its balanced heal as it will be more likely to do some healing as oppossed to an all or none situation.

- Lifetaps are self only. This is the single biggest reason why taps should be doing more healing then their balanced heals. Heals can be cast upon any grp member, or some even any raid member. The more diverse the heals use, the less it should stack up against the respective balanced tap in over all heal numbers. An SK can only heal himself with a lifetap, he cannot share any benefits with those around him, he cannot heal a member in need, thus due to its respective single use only, it must be very good at what it does to be of any use. It will also only be of extended use when it is used in a self heal situation.

- Lifetaps are DPS. This is the serious weight to consider against its respective balanced heal. Lifetaps unlike heals do cause direct damage agianst their foe(s). Thus SK with a lifetap heals constitues direct damage to his foe, vs a heal which has no effect. When balancing DPS against your respective classes lifetaps fullfill a duo role, thus become extremely problematic to balance. You want them to be useful heals, but are we willing to get this at the cost of damage from other abilities? How about recast? if its too long its worthless in a heal or DPS roll. If its too fast it offsets its heals in lieu of DPS. Lifetaps can also be used when your full health, thus becomnig mopre useful then a heal that can only really be used to cause the regain of lost health. When damage is critcal, an SK can deal it out with lifetaps irregardless of their health situation.

All of the above three major points must be considered before one can then look beyond to what our taps should be. I think we need two, and very high low resist slow recast tap, and a very fast recast lower numbered tasp with a higher resist rate. One must remember, its always about balance, not fair, not equal, balance.

A scale does not need the same omount of items on each side to have balance, it just muct acheive balance thru equal mass.

I am very interested to see what the devs have come up with.

Message Edited by Exmortis_MT on 07-18-2005 08:56 AM

insen · 07-18-2005, 09:50 PM

Another thing that has to be taken into account are our wards and group buffs.

They both have life taps in them and can be casted on other team members also.

IMO out life taps should have a 2 damage to 1 hp heal ratio

The ideal of a DOT life tap is interesting and could use the same ratio of 2:1

like coil line that hit for 90 damage 4 times there for it would heal you 45hp 4 times

I myself would like stronger lifetaps but on the other hand I do not want to give up my DPS to be able to heal myself better.

Zoradan · 07-18-2005, 10:17 PM

Good post Exmortis.

Margen · 07-18-2005, 10:23 PM

insence wrote:

Another thing that has to be taken into account are our wards and group buffs.

They both have life taps in them and can be casted on other team members also.

IMO out life taps should have a 2 damage to 1 hp heal ratio

The ideal of a DOT life tap is interesting and could use the same ratio of 2:1

like coil line that hit for 90 damage 4 times there for it would heal you 45hp 4 times

I myself would like stronger lifetaps but on the other hand I do not want to give up my DPS to be able to heal myself better.

We are already going to lose dps, its been decided by Sony, numerous threads on it. As for wards, I think I can count on one had the amount of times my ward has lifetaped .... They just don't last long enough. As for our single group buff line, if I remember right its a 5pct chance for a lifetap, which maybe covers half a hit (if fighting a solo mob). Lifetaps need a MAJOR upgrade, personaly I feel that direct lifetaps have to actually make a difference in a fight, Meaning if you cast it it actually will heal damage for a couple hits, plus I would say non-direct have to have a double in chance to proc and what it heals.

V/R

Blackoath

Exmortis_MT · 07-18-2005, 11:26 PM

insence wrote:

Another thing that has to be taken into account are our wards and group buffs.

They both have life taps in them and can be casted on other team members also.

No offense but wards vs lifetaps are two totally different avenues of discussion. Irregardless of the lifetap proc of a 24sec or less ward, its value is within itself, not based upon our direct DPS/HEAL lifetap spell line. Group buffs are just that, group buffs and again part of another whole debate on "what we bring to the group" and is not in it self a part of our abiltiy to heal through taps, or DPS through taps. Buffs are apart of our DPS, but buff procs are I beleive a seperate entity.

The lifetap proc from buffs or wards is really defined by DPS we bring to others, as SOE has said many many times, the buff proc DPS is acreditted to the caster, not proc'r in the case of a group buff. The proc effect is DPS, making no never mind if it comes from us or the rogue in our group. EX would be a dirge, really a low dps producing rogue in of itself, but watch the over all DPS increase to all members meleeing and yuo will see why its rated so high, tho a parse may give credit to the warrior, SOE devs assign that DPS to the dirge.

Wards are buffs really, they are short term, often to short as many a soloing Sk has lemented, but irregardless they are buffs. So the dicusssion of buffs must be explored with an entirely different view, and usually play a very small part of our over all DPS, and atleast brings forth the discussion, SKS DPS within the group enviroment.

However I do agree that it somewhat does co-inside with healability, which is one area i left alone, as healability is a core design fundamental that only SOE devs have on their whiteboard and we are not privy too. So yes to soem small degree these buffs do apply to healability, but i do beleive from a group/buff perspective, not in direct corilation to heal spell line vs tap spell line balance.

IMO out life taps should have a 2 damage to 1 hp heal ratio

like coil line that hit for 90 damage 4 times there for it would heal you 45hp 4 times
I disagree. Again its personal view, but A lifetap is a Lifetap and its always 1:1 ratio. To begin to allot different damage and heals within the same tap, we get into the issue we face now, our lifetaps do ok DPS but are quite frankly useless as heals. If our current lifetaps healed on a 1:1 to basis we all woudl be happier Sks, yes its still not enough. But its all in the balance, again as soon as we put forth 2dps to 1tap ratio we have told SOE we beleive taps are DPS NOT HEALS. When in fact they are equally both, thus i put forth all Lifetaps are on a 1 to 1 basis, either direct or DOT makes no never mind.

I myself would like stronger lifetaps but on the other hand I do not want to give up my DPS to be able to heal myself better.

I truely hope SKs Lifetaps become its defining ability.

Message Edited by Exmortis_MT on 07-18-2005 12:32 PM

Message Edited by Exmortis_MT on 07-18-2005 12:42 PM

Nocifer Deathblade · 07-19-2005, 12:46 AM

Yes, Lifetaps must be 1:1 ratio. But its not enough, the resist factor needs to be reduced as well. Cuz we use lifetap to heal ourselves. To rival paladin heals, we need to have those two changes. Paladin heal NEVER get resisted.. FYI..

I play lvl 70 SK in EQ1 since its launch and its lifetap IS 1:1 ratio AND has -200 to magic modifier (Extremely hard to resist) and we are VERY satisfied with it cuz we feel that our lifetaps are well balanced against paladin heals..

We have spears (pure dd spells) just for dps while we use lifetap mostly for heals and some extra burst dps. Lifetaps in EQ1 is pretty much mana hog but it is supposed to be that way tho.. I cast spear all the time but I don't cast lifetap all the time as it pops cuz of mana cost but I cast lifetap alot to buy cleric time for its complete heal to hits before I get killed. LIfetap saves my neck sooo many times that I cannot count. Against hard mobs, I lifetap alot to augment healer's healing power to extend my life better to absorb damage cuz I get no form of /disc defense (at least before DON came out).

I can't even DEPEND on [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] EQ2 lifetap to save my life at all, it gets resisted too many times and the heal power of it is sooo darn weak. I stopped using that spell months ago. I found out that warding served me better than lifetap can offer to buy time for healer to heal me or to augment with healer's healing power. Plus Warding is never get resisted... That is something I can rely more than lifetap ever can offer.. Plus Warding can absorb MORE HP damage than lifetap can.. Ward >>> LIfetap.

Deadjest · 07-19-2005, 12:53 AM

DD Life Taps need to be a 1:1 ratio, its to hard to balance dps vs healing any other way specialy in the light of the fact that our DPS will be dropped which will effect the out come of anything less then a 1:1 ratio drasticly.

As for DoT Life Taps that also needs to be looked at. According to the new system, fights are supposed to last longer, the mobs will do less spike damage but will hit more often. So Life Taps will have to be looked at not just as a ratio, but duration. DoT ticks in EQL lasted about 6 secs a Tick, for the most part now its 4 secs a Tick and on avg of 4 Ticks, with a few having different timers still.

Right now our DoTs don't pull their weight in Power Usage vs Damage Output above even the SK standard of power hogging. If we are to look into Dots having a Life Tap Effect, we should be looking into their Duration and Power Cost.

DoTs were always supposed to be more effecient then DDs, their down fall was that it was over time and not a instant. So it became more of a Tatical Issue of DoTs being better via damage over time vs power cost over DDs. DDs had the advantage of Damage/Healing being on demand as needed per situation.

If Dots are to be effective, based on 4 sec tick, they need to last at least 6 to 8 ticks. In a high power kill group, can always switch back to DD for effectivness.

Life Taps will be a very Tricky area for EQ to play with to balance it vs other class's.

I know to me, I have always thought the SK as a very tough tank but not the toughest, our power lay in crippling our enemies and out lasting them through attrition of our Life Taps.

Exmortis_MT · 07-19-2005, 05:00 PM

Nocifer Deathblade wrote:

Yes, Lifetaps must be 1:1 ratio. But its not enough, the resist factor needs to be reduced as well. Cuz we use lifetap to heal ourselves. To rival paladin heals, we need to have those two changes. Paladin heal NEVER get resisted.. FYI..

Yes but remember the placement of SK over Paladin. Paladins are the second best defensive tank over guardian with revamp, that places their heals to make up for less midigation etc. So our Lifetaps will never meet or exceed this. SKs are 4th on the melee ladder of 6, so the need for our lifetaps to be DPS is obviously more omportant to the devs. I attempted to explore this with my first post. Dont expect 500+pt taps at 50. If we do get em then be ready for major reduction of all our other skills.

Also remember, Paladins are balances against Guardians, we are balanced against Zerkers, why? because we are in the same teir, 2nd rank of tanking, 2nd rank of DPS, jack of trades master of none. Crusaders are unique in that our archtype is not our balance partner, as are fighters. One must always rememer we are to be the higher DPS tanker, we can fill the role when ever needed, but we are not as good as Pallies/guards.

Remember balance isnt always just in the numbers, its is foolish to think that pure numbers are all that i sused here. If heals represent their midigation to match guards, our Taps represent abiity to DPS vs. Zerkers, thus lifetaps will be balanced against many factors, not just a heal.

I play lvl 70 SK in EQ1 since its launch and its lifetap IS 1:1 ratio AND has -200 to magic modifier (Extremely hard to resist) and we are VERY satisfied with it cuz we feel that our lifetaps are well balanced against paladin heals..

We have spears (pure dd spells) just for dps while we use lifetap mostly for heals and some extra burst dps. Lifetaps in EQ1 is pretty much mana hog but it is supposed to be that way tho.. I cast spear all the time but I don't cast lifetap all the time as it pops cuz of mana cost but I cast lifetap alot to buy cleric time for its complete heal to hits before I get killed. LIfetap saves my neck sooo many times that I cannot count. Against hard mobs, I lifetap alot to augment healer's healing power to extend my life better to absorb damage cuz I get no form of /disc defense (at least before DON came out).

Played an SK in EQL for 4 yrs, makes no difference, this is EQ2. I dont care and neither do devs what EQL does or did, EQ2 is what matters here. EQL never was ever balanced, and quite frankly the last game i want used as a balance measuring stick. I dont want another revamp every freakin year, I want one, and be done with it. So EQL is not a good stick to measure by. No offense, but EQL isnt a good bencghmark of anything but failed ideas. EQL was a good game, class balance was never is strong point.

I can't even DEPEND on [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] EQ2 lifetap to save my life at all, it gets resisted too many times and the heal power of it is sooo darn weak. I stopped using that spell months ago. I found out that warding served me better than lifetap can offer to buy time for healer to heal me or to augment with healer's healing power. Plus Warding is never get resisted... That is something I can rely more than lifetap ever can offer.. Plus Warding can absorb MORE HP damage than lifetap can.. Ward >>> LIfetap.

Agree our lifetaps now suck, plain and simple. But wards vs lifetaps is a diff story, they are for different things. Just our ward is one of our better spells.

good points tho, turning out to be a good thread.

Message Edited by Exmortis_MT on 07-19-2005 06:01 AM

Exmortis_MT · 07-19-2005, 05:15 PM

Deadjester wrote:

DD Life Taps need to be a 1:1 ratio, its to hard to balance dps vs healing any other way specialy in the light of the fact that our DPS will be dropped which will effect the out come of anything less then a 1:1 ratio drasticly.

Yes I agree. if your make it 2damage to 1 heal it will be so worthless, as DXPS is being reduced lets keep as much healing from it as we can. Even is all our taps were 1:1 heal vs dps id be much happier. Id even take a small reduction to other attacks to increase our taps.

As for DoT Life Taps that also needs to be looked at. According to the new system, fights are supposed to last longer, the mobs will do less spike damage but will hit more often. So Life Taps will have to be looked at not just as a ratio, but duration. DoT ticks in EQL lasted about 6 secs a Tick, for the most part now its 4 secs a Tick and on avg of 4 Ticks, with a few having different timers still.

DoT lifetaps would be nice, but again the more taps we have the more our healability the less each will do. Be careful, we can never expect as much tap heals as pallies have healing, its just not going to happen we are more offensive minded they are more defensive, heals in any form, tap or spell are defensive.

Right now our DoTs don't pull their weight in Power Usage vs Damage Output above even the SK standard of power hogging. If we are to look into Dots having a Life Tap Effect, we should be looking into their Duration and Power Cost.

Different arguement all together, but yes SK dots are very expensive and I only use for adding to burst DPS when i have ample power left over on a long fight, they get added to the mix. Also handy for pulls, builds aggro as you run.

DoTs were always supposed to be more effecient then DDs, their down fall was that it was over time and not a instant. So it became more of a Tatical Issue of DoTs being better via damage over time vs power cost over DDs. DDs had the advantage of Damage/Healing being on demand as needed per situation.

yeah thats the theory, but if you read SOE info, our dots have higher power in game then the info they supply, leading me to beleive they were borked, but not fixed since revamp adjust every skill anyway.

If Dots are to be effective, based on 4 sec tick, they need to last at least 6 to 8 ticks. In a high power kill group, can always switch back to DD for effectivness.

Life Taps will be a very Tricky area for EQ to play with to balance it vs other class's.

Very true.

I know to me, I have always thought the SK as a very tough tank but not the toughest, our power lay in crippling our enemies and out lasting them through attrition of our Life Taps.

The biggest issue facinf SOE in all class cvases is everyone shares a different view of thweir said class, and beleives they are right. no matter what. Well this is a game, in a make beleive world, with make beleive characters. Well some peopel need ot realize its SOE doing all the making and if we dont beleive we can walk.

The revamp will change the game drasticially, and I for one herald its coming as the savior, right now EQ2 is just good, the revamp will be the deciding factor on how long i play. EQ2s mechanics are so badly flawed, and all we have is a mish mash of loose ideas and tests from beta. YOu cannot expect a few thousnd to test a game as complex and deep as EQ2, I expected this, and knew they would be doing this when i started. It is a known MMO fact, forst 6 to 8 months is paid beta.

Uggli · 07-19-2005, 09:32 PM

Has there been any hinting at when these combat changes are going into effect? I'm getting tired of waiting for them and hearing how much they are going to change things. It's hard to really toss ideas around on how life taps should be when we don't know the real net effect of the changes.

Margen · 07-19-2005, 11:08 PM

Not sure I agree with MT on wards being one of our best spells. As it stands now our wards take maybe 2 or 3 hits and are gone. Against a tough group/epic mob they really only last a single hit. For this reason the secondary effects like lifetap have really no use due to the unlikely hood that it will actually proc before ward disabates and an very low pct chance on proc number, think its 5pct off the top of my head. I personaly think I can count on one hand the number of times my ward has actually proced. To be honest I usally just use it as part of my aggro generation cycle.

V/R

Blackoath

Deadjest · 07-19-2005, 11:34 PM

Wards are a issue all by itself. The problem is the effect they have and they way wards presently work, the effect and ward don't work together.

In order for the effect to work, one of two things need to happen.

One the wards need to be WAY BIGGER, but this could lead to a nasty imbalance with the incoming revamp.

Two, Wards need to be a little bigger but stretch its effect over time. So instead of having a 600 pt ward stop 600 pts of mitigated damage right out. The ward only stops 40% of the incoming Mitigated Damage till all 600 pts are used up. Which as the effect of softening blows incoming which gives healers a easier time on healing and stretches the Ward out long enough that any effect it has, will have a much better chance of being of actualy use to the class it lands on.

Exmortis_MT · 07-19-2005, 11:49 PM

Uggliey wrote:
Has there been any hinting at when these combat changes are going into effect? I'm getting tired of waiting for them and hearing how much they are going to change things. It's hard to really toss ideas around on how life taps should be when we don't know the real net effect of the changes.

Moorgard posted a week ago they are nearing readiness for test. Personally I woudl rasther wait then ghet half baked, that must be patched 400 times or revamped a 4th as EQL. Bioware told us that Baldurs Gate would be ready when they are satisfied its ready and not one day, week, hour or month before. They deleivered. Im willing to give SOE all the time they need, until expansion. All i care is when the game moves forward so does the mechanics.

Exmortis_MT · 07-19-2005, 11:52 PM

Margen wrote:

Not sure I agree with MT on wards being one of our best spells. As it stands now our wards take maybe 2 or 3 hits and are gone. Against a tough group/epic mob they really only last a single hit. For this reason the secondary effects like lifetap have really no use due to the unlikely hood that it will actually proc before ward disabates and an very low pct chance on proc number, think its 5pct off the top of my head. I personaly think I can count on one hand the number of times my ward has actually proced. To be honest I usally just use it as part of my aggro generation cycle.

V/R

Blackoath

Considering the game is atleast 75% grp/solo now, and the last 25% spent raiding the same content, I'd say that makes the wrd incredibly useful. It has saved more then one guardian a death when things got tight. It has coem to the aid of many a caster in my grp, Its 601 more hp on pull. I have adept 3, and use it often.

I dont even care about the proc, its 601 temp hp every 20secs, on whom ever in my grp needs it, just wish i could cast it raid wide, then SKS have an extra use, 601hp every 20secs for MT, for the entire darathar fight? priceless.

Message Edited by Exmortis_MT on 07-19-2005 12:53 PM

Eyes_of_Truth · 07-20-2005, 06:06 AM

Im not a shadowkngiht but im gona amke one if they fix the lifetaps.

I have worked outa formula that provides a balanced formula for hp healing and damage differance from paladin and shadowknight.

If a SK has a 300 hp life tap (300 damage / 300 heal) for 100 power with a 14 second reuse timer and 1 second casting time, it can be cast every 15 seconds.

Give paladin's 225 hp heal for 40 power, 2 second casting time with 5 second recast time, and give paladin a 150 nuke for 20 power with a 1 sec casting time and 14 second reuse time(maby add a small stun). When added together, that is 450 healing, and 150 damage, for the same 100 power.

Lifetaps need to be unresistable for this balance to work. These numbers arnt exact, but they would scale according to level.

Toodles!

Ishnar · 07-20-2005, 07:08 AM

Deadjester wrote:

Wards are a issue all by itself. The problem is the effect they have and they way wards presently work, the effect and ward don't work together.

In order for the effect to work, one of two things need to happen.

One the wards need to be WAY BIGGER, but this could lead to a nasty imbalance with the incoming revamp.

Two, Wards need to be a little bigger but stretch its effect over time. So instead of having a 600 pt ward stop 600 pts of mitigated damage right out. The ward only stops 40% of the incoming Mitigated Damage till all 600 pts are used up. Which as the effect of softening blows incoming which gives healers a easier time on healing and stretches the Ward out long enough that any effect it has, will have a much better chance of being of actualy use to the class it lands on.

I saw a dev say somewhere that Wards were being fixed. Specifically, one thing mentioned was they would ward the mitigated damage where now they mitigate the full blow, which will make them absorb much more damage than before.

With wards warding unmitigated damage much more is spilling over now than will be after the revamp. There was something else being done to improve wards, but I can't remember what it was if the dev even mentioned it.

Ishnar

Deadjest · 07-20-2005, 08:28 AM

Thats not enough to work along with its side effect. As long as its going to have a side effect that, that effect should match the nature of what ever spell or ability its combined with, anything else is illogical. Its like milking a bull, you wont see a dairy farmer do that often.

Yes they will work better after the revamp but it will NOT work well enough for the side effect to be worth having.

Many of the side effects on our spells are not on the proper one to make them work properly. Like having a 5% slow effect on our taunt that last 1.2 secs is not logical, at worst it should be on our DoT and at best it should be on Tainted Caress. The present DoT barely last long enough to make it effecitve and Tainted Caress is perfect for it.

If a spell of ours is to have a side effect it needs to be put on the proper spell in a manner that is best suited for the effect to work and be useful.

The very idea of putting a effect on somthing that makes it worthless is mind boggling.

Hopefully, they will do more then just let our Wards just mitigate based off our AC and bring it more in line to making the Effect work along with it. If it was to work in the manner I would like it to work, it would help us not only solo and group better but would have a added roll on raids.

Sha · 07-20-2005, 08:59 AM

Another thing to consider about the lifetaps, is that we HAVE to be in combat to use it. Compared to a pally, who can use it after a battle to get to full health before opening a chest (just an example), we have to stand toe-to-toe with a mob to get the health boost. So basicly, our lifetaps returns WAY to few HP to be effective, they are resisted, and can only be used in combat. I would say that qualifies for an upgrade with the revamp.

Trivon · 07-20-2005, 09:32 AM

This thread has brought up some important issues. I think that lifetaps definitely need to be 1:1 ratio it just makes logical sense. wards are well more of a manaburn then anything else atm. Besides being mitigated and increased effectiveness, wards NEED to last longer 24 seconds just doesn't cut it. In a raid situation if Icast a ward on myself to protect from an AE having a 24 second timer blows. I think SK wards should be like necro wards which last until cancelled. Good job on this thread guys keep posting feedback.

insen · 07-21-2005, 10:23 PM

First off I want to thank everyone that ripped my post appart. (And I mean that!) By doing so we have in a whole came up w/ some great brainstoming on what we would like to see and balancing the effects.

Life tap: I do belive that Life taps should not be 1:1 ratio but you are all right that it should not be a 2:1 also... but instead make it a random from 1:1.5 to 1:0.5 and have the mobs resistent stats vs/ disease detrimine what the ratio will be, this way the spell is unresistable and still maintain some balance. Life taps should have a medium power usage

Wards: Again the wards we have now do work well but need alot of tweaking, I do agree that the ward should only take a %age of the incoming damage and that times timers should be increased. IE. ward absorbs 20% damage, (no damage limit) 5% more DPS and a 5% chance to preform a life tap accourding to above. duration could be 1 min and a power useage should be meduim-high, Then each stacked ward would yeild less of damage absorbation %age. like if a pally throws up his ward it would add only 10% more but still yeild all effects of their ward. but healer wards should be stronger than ours and their %age would always be on top

Group buff: The group buff life tap should work just as the same as a normail Life Tap but the ratios should be less like 1:1 to 1:0.25

And just to rant about some of our spells that do not effect epics, have spells remove certain things from them that you do not want like stifle and knockdown to then only when encountering an epic mob.

Now I await for all of you to rip me apart again and come up w/ some better ideals

Just another blood thirsty Shadow Knight

Exmortis_MT · 07-22-2005, 05:29 PM

insence wrote:

And just to rant about some of our spells that do not effect epics, have spells remove certain things from them that you do not want like stifle and knockdown to then only when encountering an epic mob.

Moorgard has already stated that part of the revamp is the removal of secondary effect vs mod resistance. Thus is you attempt to use an attack that has a stifle effect against a stifle resistantant mob, the attack will still work but the secondary effect will be ignored. Hence we get back our shield bash against epic foes...thank god we dont have enough taunts with out it.

Diern · 07-23-2005, 06:52 AM

Simply 1:1 just like EQL. I have said it once and ill say it again they need to look at the original model of the shadowknight and adjust accordingly with this new game. I really dont want to see them take another 5 years to get this class right

Deadjest · 07-24-2005, 06:40 PM

The more I think about it Life Taps are going to be tricky. Unlike a Paladin Heal, we have to face Spell Avoidance and Spell Mitigation.

That is Two Negitive effects the Paladin Heals don't have to face. Which means the Life Tap will have to have a even greater effect then a Paladins Heal just to balance out Avoidance and Mitigation. On a good role we have a greater effect, on a bad roll, we have a lesser effect or no effect at all depending on how hard Spell Avoidance and Spell Mitigation kicks in.

The down side for groups is that it can only be used for us unlike the Paladin Heal, or untill they come out with a group version.

Would be interesting if they could come out with other forms of TAPs.

Such as a Tap that Taps the mobs Power and converts it to a Heal for us.

Self and Group Pure Power Taps.

There is SO MUCH this game can do with the combat system they already have in place. Why I still wait around inspited of the imbalances that are going on, just so many possibilities for this game and the chance to push players more on a Tatical Base then a Grog swing weapon base.

Exmortis_MT · 07-25-2005, 05:09 PM

Deadjester wrote:

The more I think about it Life Taps are going to be tricky.   Unlike a Paladin Heal, we have to face Spell Avoidance and Spell Mitigation.

Very true, but remember tho Pallies our are nemisis, they are not our balanced partner. SOE choose to make Pallies a defensive class, and SKs an offensive class, thus pallies are balanced vs Guards, and SKs balanced vs Zerkers. Not a bad idea actually.

Pallies represent all the good in law and justice. They hearld the divinity and its powers to defend and hold the line of foes, to stand in harms way and help carve the path those behind can walk.  The Paladin is a forward symbol of stalwart defense. Thus they get heals, rez, and buffs.

SKs on the other hand represent all that is evil in law and justice. we are the reavers of that said divinity. We hearld the laws and bring down pain and suffering to those that woudl break our laws or seek to undermine them. SKs stand for the divine hand of punishment. Thus we get taps and vicious attacks.

That is Two Negitive effects the Paladin Heals don't have to face.   Which means the Life Tap will have to have a even greater effect then a Paladins Heal just to balance out Avoidance and Mitigation. On a good role we have a greater effect, on a bad roll, we have a lesser effect or no effect at all depending on how hard Spell Avoidance and Spell Mitigation kicks in.

While I agree to some extent, the Sk tap is an attack, first and foremost. So it must be then balanced against DPS and what is expected of us in regards to said DPS. Taps also represent healability, and Pallies as defensive class, will have a higher healability rating then SKs, thus always expect them to have a higher heal then we have taps. SKs are reavers, we deal pain and suffernig. Personally I think SOE dropped the ball in not giving us more crippling type attacks, SKs shoudl be using vicious attacks that inflict pain and suffering, and thus have lasting effects upon our foes.

Taps are not simply balanced aginst a heal, but against every facet we are, thus they can never meet the expectation of a paladin heal.

The down side for groups is that it can only be used for us unlike the Paladin Heal, or untill they come out with a group version.

Upside is, when dps is caleld for we can hammer our taps away, Pallies heal is of no use when hes expected to dps.

Would be interesting if they could come out with other forms of TAPs.

Such as a Tap that Taps the mobs Power and converts it to a Heal for us.

Self and Group Pure Power Taps.

You must leave room for new things? Isnt kewl to gain a new abiity with each expansion? Thus fleshing out our class over time? As much as I agree here, and would enjoy those, wouldnt be nice to leave some for later?

There is SO MUCH this game can do with the combat system they already have in place.   Why I still wait around inspited of the imbalances that are going on, just so many possibilities for this game and the chance to push players more on a Tatical Base then a Grog swing weapon base.

1:1 taps do not make for tactics. Unfortunately there is only so much a game can handle. Yuo want htis kind of action and play? where intelligence and ability to think reigns? Then get a group of 6 or 8 peeps and play a RGP for real.

I liek MMOs, but no game engine can ever replace the fun and excitment of the real thing, I have played D&D now since 81.

This is one thread i hope SOE is reading.

Deadjest · 07-26-2005, 01:14 AM

Actualy I have a RPG group every sunday =)

And what I say in my posts arent directed at any one expansion but at the idealism of the Sk and what it could be and possibilities, if they do in this or next expansion, its all good. I know in EQL we had tatics going on, at times FD pulling was simple and somtimes it was a 15 mins of crazyness as my group waited as I would slowly get a named past a ton of mobs. But its different here but that doesnt take away the chance for other types of tatics to from out of what we have or may have as the game grows.

In EQL our life taps were around the 65% range of a heal I believe, so between our nuke and heal effect we came out better for it but weaker on a indvidual level.

One of my hopes is they change some of our side effects to somthing that could make more use of it. Such as the slow effect on our taunt, put that on our DoT or Cursed Caress.

But its mostly its all food for thought.

Maybe they will read somthing they will like or ingore it, either way, I did what I could.

=)

Diern · 07-26-2005, 07:38 AM

In EQL they eventually gave us fast casting lifetaps that had a heavy modifier to the resist check something like -200. This had the effect of only being resisted by Creatures that were completely immune to magic (very few). Its very frustrating to me that they are repeating the very same mistakes the original development team made with the EQlive shadowknight. I know this is an entirely different game and isnt supposed to be EQlive, but you would think they would at least have an idea about what works and what doesnt with this class.

Deadjest · 07-26-2005, 08:17 AM

Compared to EQL, SKs in EQ2 Tank much much better and closer to our fellow Tanks. A few more tweeks and we will be even closer yet in the revamp.

But some how we seemed to have lost the Flavor of being a SK.

I am not sure how the other Class's feel, but I don't feel like a SK here, just a Warrior with a few disease attacks and some goofy bird that I picked up off some drunk navy guy who needed money for more beer to make that bearded dwarf [Removed for Content] look better.

How they thought giving us pets that look like the next generation of Uber Turds then on to the Killer Pigeon would add to our flavor I will never know. It would be nice that while we are in Skelly form to look like the Skellys in armor in the Bloodline and get a pet that looks like the specter dogs in Nek Castle.

Lets get some armor with some spikes or nasty designs on it and etc etc

Ya I know its only graphics but heck our powers don't make me feel like a SK either, our dots look goofy with a purple ball flying out to short of a duration vs its power usage and our buffs have this odd look to.

Only thing that has looked cool so far is some of the procs effects with the Purple Skull.

As for the actualy effect, they almost seem the same as any other power but with a different name on it. And they do nothing different from the other class's for the most part.

Bah, rant off. What was supposed to be a simple response just sorta took off on its own.

OogallySolRoSK · 07-26-2005, 11:49 AM

It's not hard at all. Sure, Pallies are defensive and Sks are offensive tanks. So if a pally heal does, say, 400, our lifetap should do 200 damage and heal us for 200. The pally gets a better heal, we get damage and half a heal. The mob sees the heal and damage/heal as the same for purposes of aggro.

Instead, our lifetaps are so woefully inadequate when compared to pally heals. Have partial lifetaps go off in case of resists.

It should be a comparative value. Not necessarily equal to pallies, but close. It won't ever be the same heal (pallies get 400, we get 200 as example) but close enough that we should be a little better at healing ourselves.

Exmortis_MT · 07-26-2005, 04:52 PM

Deadjester wrote:

Actualy I have a RPG group every sunday =)

Kewlio. I play 3.5 edition D&D and really enjoying the new system. D20 is the best thing to hit RPGs since Gary Gygax was born. I play a, about to be 12th level Half-Elven Wizard, specialist Enchanter. First fro anyoen in my group to see done and a first for me, im partial to Necromancers. But its fun, different and just flows with RP possibilities, really been fun.

And what I say in my posts arent directed at any one expansion but at the idealism of the Sk and what it could be and possibilities, if they do in this or next expansion, its all good.

Yes I am hoping that after revamp we have a great foundation for the expansin to now breath life into the classes. I think SOE has done a marvelous job to now, they just need to get off the cardboard work, and now make them unique. All houses look similar when they are just foundations, now its time to build the real characters.

I know in EQL we had tatics going on, at times FD pulling was simple and somtimes it was a 15 mins of crazyness as my group waited as I would slowly get a named past a ton of mobs. But its different here but that doesnt take away the chance for other types of tatics to from out of what we have or may have as the game grows.

FD pullen was a bit of a skill but i dont consider it a tactic. Just flop around until u have as few mobs as u can handle linked. BUt I agree eq1 is simplified, but so it was in eq1 was new. Every one expects a totalyl new game to be as mature and developed as eq1, but that takes time, and it isnt all that old.

In EQL our life taps were around the 65% range of a heal I believe, so between our nuke and heal effect we came out better for it but weaker on a indvidual level.

Yes in EQ1 taps were a big deal. But one must understand that what happened in eq1 doesnt mean jack here. Evil knights in tons of other games didnt have such abilities so thats not a marker of absolutism. I just hope they bring them up from 98hp at 50.

One of my hopes is they change some of our side effects to somthing that could make more use of it. Such as the slow effect on our taunt, put that on our DoT or Cursed Caress.

Yes I have said this many times to friends. SOE shoudl have made the SK have very kewl side effects, making us cripplers, not healers.

But its mostly its all food for thought.

Maybe they will read somthing they will like or ingore it, either way, I did what I could.

=)
We can only hope.

07-18-2005, 07:55 PM	#2
Exmortis_MT Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	Trivonus wrote: I think this is a very touchy issue atm for us ShadowKnights. Our lifetaps need to heal as much HP as atleast one hit from a regular enemy it does 275 damage to me at lvl 34. So having a lifetap once every 30 seconds heal me for 275 at lvl 34 and requires 50 power or so should be acceptable. Please post your thoughts. I think ShadowKnights need an Lifetap over time. Something that last for 5 ticks and heals 50-100 per tick. Power consumption is key so that it can useful it needs to be very effecient. This type of spell fits into our SK persona. It should also stack with our current dots. Please post feedback on these ideas. This is a good subject, and its cornered around several key factors that must be explored. - Lifetaps can be and are resisted, and when balanced against heals that must be taken into account. If the devs look to a 30% resist rate for our taps, then our taps should represent 30% more healing then the balanced heal against. As it is never resisted. Resist rates vary by mob/resistant types, but should equal out to an average. The Tap should represent an even keel with the heal given the chance of respective average mob resisting the tap. This allows for situations where the representnig balanced against heal will be better in a high resist mob to the spells use of elements (for arguements sake disease, posion are elements when in terms of EQ2 casters), alternatively a tap could be better in the case of a target whos very weak against that same resist element and coudl represent a better then normal tap ratio. also allowing partial resists allows for a slightly lower tap agianst its balanced heal as it will be more likely to do some healing as oppossed to an all or none situation. - Lifetaps are self only. This is the single biggest reason why taps should be doing more healing then their balanced heals. Heals can be cast upon any grp member, or some even any raid member. The more diverse the heals use, the less it should stack up against the respective balanced tap in over all heal numbers. An SK can only heal himself with a lifetap, he cannot share any benefits with those around him, he cannot heal a member in need, thus due to its respective single use only, it must be very good at what it does to be of any use. It will also only be of extended use when it is used in a self heal situation. - Lifetaps are DPS. This is the serious weight to consider against its respective balanced heal. Lifetaps unlike heals do cause direct damage agianst their foe(s). Thus SK with a lifetap heals constitues direct damage to his foe, vs a heal which has no effect. When balancing DPS against your respective classes lifetaps fullfill a duo role, thus become extremely problematic to balance. You want them to be useful heals, but are we willing to get this at the cost of damage from other abilities? How about recast? if its too long its worthless in a heal or DPS roll. If its too fast it offsets its heals in lieu of DPS. Lifetaps can also be used when your full health, thus becomnig mopre useful then a heal that can only really be used to cause the regain of lost health. When damage is critcal, an SK can deal it out with lifetaps irregardless of their health situation. All of the above three major points must be considered before one can then look beyond to what our taps should be. I think we need two, and very high low resist slow recast tap, and a very fast recast lower numbered tasp with a higher resist rate. One must remember, its always about balance, not fair, not equal, balance. A scale does not need the same omount of items on each side to have balance, it just muct acheive balance thru equal mass. I am very interested to see what the devs have come up with. Message Edited by Exmortis_MT on 07-18-2005 08:56 AM __________________ Exxmortis

07-18-2005, 10:17 PM	#4
Zoradan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 186	Good post Exmortis. __________________

07-18-2005, 10:23 PM	#5
Margen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 648	insence wrote: Another thing that has to be taken into account are our wards and group buffs. They both have life taps in them and can be casted on other team members also. IMO out life taps should have a 2 damage to 1 hp heal ratio The ideal of a DOT life tap is interesting and could use the same ratio of 2:1 like coil line that hit for 90 damage 4 times there for it would heal you 45hp 4 times I myself would like stronger lifetaps but on the other hand I do not want to give up my DPS to be able to heal myself better. We are already going to lose dps, its been decided by Sony, numerous threads on it. As for wards, I think I can count on one had the amount of times my ward has lifetaped .... They just don't last long enough. As for our single group buff line, if I remember right its a 5pct chance for a lifetap, which maybe covers half a hit (if fighting a solo mob). Lifetaps need a MAJOR upgrade, personaly I feel that direct lifetaps have to actually make a difference in a fight, Meaning if you cast it it actually will heal damage for a couple hits, plus I would say non-direct have to have a double in chance to proc and what it heals. V/R Blackoath __________________ Blackoath Uglyone 80 Shadow Knight of Chaos Phang 80 Swashbuckler of Chaos You EVER going to fix SKs Sony?

07-18-2005, 11:26 PM	#6
Exmortis_MT Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	insence wrote: Another thing that has to be taken into account are our wards and group buffs. They both have life taps in them and can be casted on other team members also. No offense but wards vs lifetaps are two totally different avenues of discussion. Irregardless of the lifetap proc of a 24sec or less ward, its value is within itself, not based upon our direct DPS/HEAL lifetap spell line. Group buffs are just that, group buffs and again part of another whole debate on "what we bring to the group" and is not in it self a part of our abiltiy to heal through taps, or DPS through taps. Buffs are apart of our DPS, but buff procs are I beleive a seperate entity. The lifetap proc from buffs or wards is really defined by DPS we bring to others, as SOE has said many many times, the buff proc DPS is acreditted to the caster, not proc'r in the case of a group buff. The proc effect is DPS, making no never mind if it comes from us or the rogue in our group. EX would be a dirge, really a low dps producing rogue in of itself, but watch the over all DPS increase to all members meleeing and yuo will see why its rated so high, tho a parse may give credit to the warrior, SOE devs assign that DPS to the dirge. Wards are buffs really, they are short term, often to short as many a soloing Sk has lemented, but irregardless they are buffs. So the dicusssion of buffs must be explored with an entirely different view, and usually play a very small part of our over all DPS, and atleast brings forth the discussion, SKS DPS within the group enviroment. However I do agree that it somewhat does co-inside with healability, which is one area i left alone, as healability is a core design fundamental that only SOE devs have on their whiteboard and we are not privy too. So yes to soem small degree these buffs do apply to healability, but i do beleive from a group/buff perspective, not in direct corilation to heal spell line vs tap spell line balance. IMO out life taps should have a 2 damage to 1 hp heal ratio like coil line that hit for 90 damage 4 times there for it would heal you 45hp 4 times I disagree. Again its personal view, but A lifetap is a Lifetap and its always 1:1 ratio. To begin to allot different damage and heals within the same tap, we get into the issue we face now, our lifetaps do ok DPS but are quite frankly useless as heals. If our current lifetaps healed on a 1:1 to basis we all woudl be happier Sks, yes its still not enough. But its all in the balance, again as soon as we put forth 2dps to 1tap ratio we have told SOE we beleive taps are DPS NOT HEALS. When in fact they are equally both, thus i put forth all Lifetaps are on a 1 to 1 basis, either direct or DOT makes no never mind. I myself would like stronger lifetaps but on the other hand I do not want to give up my DPS to be able to heal myself better. I truely hope SKs Lifetaps become its defining ability. Message Edited by Exmortis_MT on 07-18-2005 12:32 PM Message Edited by Exmortis_MT on 07-18-2005 12:42 PM __________________ Exxmortis

07-19-2005, 12:46 AM	#7
Nocifer Deathblade Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 850	Yes, Lifetaps must be 1:1 ratio. But its not enough, the resist factor needs to be reduced as well. Cuz we use lifetap to heal ourselves. To rival paladin heals, we need to have those two changes. Paladin heal NEVER get resisted.. FYI.. I play lvl 70 SK in EQ1 since its launch and its lifetap IS 1:1 ratio AND has -200 to magic modifier (Extremely hard to resist) and we are VERY satisfied with it cuz we feel that our lifetaps are well balanced against paladin heals.. We have spears (pure dd spells) just for dps while we use lifetap mostly for heals and some extra burst dps. Lifetaps in EQ1 is pretty much mana hog but it is supposed to be that way tho.. I cast spear all the time but I don't cast lifetap all the time as it pops cuz of mana cost but I cast lifetap alot to buy cleric time for its complete heal to hits before I get killed. LIfetap saves my neck sooo many times that I cannot count. Against hard mobs, I lifetap alot to augment healer's healing power to extend my life better to absorb damage cuz I get no form of /disc defense (at least before DON came out). I can't even DEPEND on [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] EQ2 lifetap to save my life at all, it gets resisted too many times and the heal power of it is sooo darn weak. I stopped using that spell months ago. I found out that warding served me better than lifetap can offer to buy time for healer to heal me or to augment with healer's healing power. Plus Warding is never get resisted... That is something I can rely more than lifetap ever can offer.. Plus Warding can absorb MORE HP damage than lifetap can.. Ward >>> LIfetap. __________________ EQ I: Archfiend Nocifer Deathblade -Retired Fall '06, Bristlebane Server Vampire Cavalier, 80 Armorer, 390Transmuter, 138 AP, 2.3M Guild Status Points

07-18-2005, 06:12 PM	#1
Trivon Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 25	I think this is a very touchy issue atm for us ShadowKnights. Our lifetaps need to heal as much HP as atleast one hit from a regular enemy it does 275 damage to me at lvl 34. So having a lifetap once every 30 seconds heal me for 275 at lvl 34 and requires 50 power or so should be acceptable. Please post your thoughts. I think ShadowKnights need an Lifetap over time. Something that last for 5 ticks and heals 50-100 per tick. Power consumption is key so that it can useful it needs to be very effecient. This type of spell fits into our SK persona. It should also stack with our current dots. Please post feedback on these ideas.

07-18-2005, 09:50 PM	#3
insen Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 49	Another thing that has to be taken into account are our wards and group buffs. They both have life taps in them and can be casted on other team members also. IMO out life taps should have a 2 damage to 1 hp heal ratio The ideal of a DOT life tap is interesting and could use the same ratio of 2:1 like coil line that hit for 90 damage 4 times there for it would heal you 45hp 4 times I myself would like stronger lifetaps but on the other hand I do not want to give up my DPS to be able to heal myself better.

07-19-2005, 12:53 AM	#8
Deadjest Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 178	DD Life Taps need to be a 1:1 ratio, its to hard to balance dps vs healing any other way specialy in the light of the fact that our DPS will be dropped which will effect the out come of anything less then a 1:1 ratio drasticly. As for DoT Life Taps that also needs to be looked at. According to the new system, fights are supposed to last longer, the mobs will do less spike damage but will hit more often. So Life Taps will have to be looked at not just as a ratio, but duration. DoT ticks in EQL lasted about 6 secs a Tick, for the most part now its 4 secs a Tick and on avg of 4 Ticks, with a few having different timers still. Right now our DoTs don't pull their weight in Power Usage vs Damage Output above even the SK standard of power hogging. If we are to look into Dots having a Life Tap Effect, we should be looking into their Duration and Power Cost. DoTs were always supposed to be more effecient then DDs, their down fall was that it was over time and not a instant. So it became more of a Tatical Issue of DoTs being better via damage over time vs power cost over DDs. DDs had the advantage of Damage/Healing being on demand as needed per situation. If Dots are to be effective, based on 4 sec tick, they need to last at least 6 to 8 ticks. In a high power kill group, can always switch back to DD for effectivness. Life Taps will be a very Tricky area for EQ to play with to balance it vs other class's. I know to me, I have always thought the SK as a very tough tank but not the toughest, our power lay in crippling our enemies and out lasting them through attrition of our Life Taps.

07-19-2005, 05:00 PM	#9
Exmortis_MT Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	Nocifer Deathblade wrote: Yes, Lifetaps must be 1:1 ratio. But its not enough, the resist factor needs to be reduced as well. Cuz we use lifetap to heal ourselves. To rival paladin heals, we need to have those two changes. Paladin heal NEVER get resisted.. FYI.. Yes but remember the placement of SK over Paladin. Paladins are the second best defensive tank over guardian with revamp, that places their heals to make up for less midigation etc. So our Lifetaps will never meet or exceed this. SKs are 4th on the melee ladder of 6, so the need for our lifetaps to be DPS is obviously more omportant to the devs. I attempted to explore this with my first post. Dont expect 500+pt taps at 50. If we do get em then be ready for major reduction of all our other skills. Also remember, Paladins are balances against Guardians, we are balanced against Zerkers, why? because we are in the same teir, 2nd rank of tanking, 2nd rank of DPS, jack of trades master of none. Crusaders are unique in that our archtype is not our balance partner, as are fighters. One must always rememer we are to be the higher DPS tanker, we can fill the role when ever needed, but we are not as good as Pallies/guards. Remember balance isnt always just in the numbers, its is foolish to think that pure numbers are all that i sused here. If heals represent their midigation to match guards, our Taps represent abiity to DPS vs. Zerkers, thus lifetaps will be balanced against many factors, not just a heal. I play lvl 70 SK in EQ1 since its launch and its lifetap IS 1:1 ratio AND has -200 to magic modifier (Extremely hard to resist) and we are VERY satisfied with it cuz we feel that our lifetaps are well balanced against paladin heals.. We have spears (pure dd spells) just for dps while we use lifetap mostly for heals and some extra burst dps. Lifetaps in EQ1 is pretty much mana hog but it is supposed to be that way tho.. I cast spear all the time but I don't cast lifetap all the time as it pops cuz of mana cost but I cast lifetap alot to buy cleric time for its complete heal to hits before I get killed. LIfetap saves my neck sooo many times that I cannot count. Against hard mobs, I lifetap alot to augment healer's healing power to extend my life better to absorb damage cuz I get no form of /disc defense (at least before DON came out). Played an SK in EQL for 4 yrs, makes no difference, this is EQ2. I dont care and neither do devs what EQL does or did, EQ2 is what matters here. EQL never was ever balanced, and quite frankly the last game i want used as a balance measuring stick. I dont want another revamp every freakin year, I want one, and be done with it. So EQL is not a good stick to measure by. No offense, but EQL isnt a good bencghmark of anything but failed ideas. EQL was a good game, class balance was never is strong point. I can't even DEPEND on [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] EQ2 lifetap to save my life at all, it gets resisted too many times and the heal power of it is sooo darn weak. I stopped using that spell months ago. I found out that warding served me better than lifetap can offer to buy time for healer to heal me or to augment with healer's healing power. Plus Warding is never get resisted... That is something I can rely more than lifetap ever can offer.. Plus Warding can absorb MORE HP damage than lifetap can.. Ward >>> LIfetap. Agree our lifetaps now suck, plain and simple. But wards vs lifetaps is a diff story, they are for different things. Just our ward is one of our better spells. good points tho, turning out to be a good thread. Message Edited by Exmortis_MT on 07-19-2005 06:01 AM __________________ Exxmortis

07-19-2005, 05:15 PM	#10
Exmortis_MT Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	Deadjester wrote: DD Life Taps need to be a 1:1 ratio, its to hard to balance dps vs healing any other way specialy in the light of the fact that our DPS will be dropped which will effect the out come of anything less then a 1:1 ratio drasticly. Yes I agree. if your make it 2damage to 1 heal it will be so worthless, as DXPS is being reduced lets keep as much healing from it as we can. Even is all our taps were 1:1 heal vs dps id be much happier. Id even take a small reduction to other attacks to increase our taps. As for DoT Life Taps that also needs to be looked at. According to the new system, fights are supposed to last longer, the mobs will do less spike damage but will hit more often. So Life Taps will have to be looked at not just as a ratio, but duration. DoT ticks in EQL lasted about 6 secs a Tick, for the most part now its 4 secs a Tick and on avg of 4 Ticks, with a few having different timers still. DoT lifetaps would be nice, but again the more taps we have the more our healability the less each will do. Be careful, we can never expect as much tap heals as pallies have healing, its just not going to happen we are more offensive minded they are more defensive, heals in any form, tap or spell are defensive. Right now our DoTs don't pull their weight in Power Usage vs Damage Output above even the SK standard of power hogging. If we are to look into Dots having a Life Tap Effect, we should be looking into their Duration and Power Cost. Different arguement all together, but yes SK dots are very expensive and I only use for adding to burst DPS when i have ample power left over on a long fight, they get added to the mix. Also handy for pulls, builds aggro as you run. DoTs were always supposed to be more effecient then DDs, their down fall was that it was over time and not a instant. So it became more of a Tatical Issue of DoTs being better via damage over time vs power cost over DDs. DDs had the advantage of Damage/Healing being on demand as needed per situation. yeah thats the theory, but if you read SOE info, our dots have higher power in game then the info they supply, leading me to beleive they were borked, but not fixed since revamp adjust every skill anyway. If Dots are to be effective, based on 4 sec tick, they need to last at least 6 to 8 ticks. In a high power kill group, can always switch back to DD for effectivness. Life Taps will be a very Tricky area for EQ to play with to balance it vs other class's. Very true. I know to me, I have always thought the SK as a very tough tank but not the toughest, our power lay in crippling our enemies and out lasting them through attrition of our Life Taps. The biggest issue facinf SOE in all class cvases is everyone shares a different view of thweir said class, and beleives they are right. no matter what. Well this is a game, in a make beleive world, with make beleive characters. Well some peopel need ot realize its SOE doing all the making and if we dont beleive we can walk. The revamp will change the game drasticially, and I for one herald its coming as the savior, right now EQ2 is just good, the revamp will be the deciding factor on how long i play. EQ2s mechanics are so badly flawed, and all we have is a mish mash of loose ideas and tests from beta. YOu cannot expect a few thousnd to test a game as complex and deep as EQ2, I expected this, and knew they would be doing this when i started. It is a known MMO fact, forst 6 to 8 months is paid beta. __________________ Exxmortis

07-19-2005, 09:32 PM	#11
Uggli General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 245	Has there been any hinting at when these combat changes are going into effect? I'm getting tired of waiting for them and hearing how much they are going to change things. It's hard to really toss ideas around on how life taps should be when we don't know the real net effect of the changes. __________________

07-19-2005, 11:08 PM	#12
Margen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 648	Not sure I agree with MT on wards being one of our best spells. As it stands now our wards take maybe 2 or 3 hits and are gone. Against a tough group/epic mob they really only last a single hit. For this reason the secondary effects like lifetap have really no use due to the unlikely hood that it will actually proc before ward disabates and an very low pct chance on proc number, think its 5pct off the top of my head. I personaly think I can count on one hand the number of times my ward has actually proced. To be honest I usally just use it as part of my aggro generation cycle. V/R Blackoath __________________ Blackoath Uglyone 80 Shadow Knight of Chaos Phang 80 Swashbuckler of Chaos You EVER going to fix SKs Sony?

07-19-2005, 11:34 PM	#13
Deadjest Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 178	Wards are a issue all by itself. The problem is the effect they have and they way wards presently work, the effect and ward don't work together. In order for the effect to work, one of two things need to happen. One the wards need to be WAY BIGGER, but this could lead to a nasty imbalance with the incoming revamp. Two, Wards need to be a little bigger but stretch its effect over time. So instead of having a 600 pt ward stop 600 pts of mitigated damage right out. The ward only stops 40% of the incoming Mitigated Damage till all 600 pts are used up. Which as the effect of softening blows incoming which gives healers a easier time on healing and stretches the Ward out long enough that any effect it has, will have a much better chance of being of actualy use to the class it lands on.

07-19-2005, 11:49 PM	#14
Exmortis_MT Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	Uggliey wrote: Has there been any hinting at when these combat changes are going into effect? I'm getting tired of waiting for them and hearing how much they are going to change things. It's hard to really toss ideas around on how life taps should be when we don't know the real net effect of the changes. Moorgard posted a week ago they are nearing readiness for test. Personally I woudl rasther wait then ghet half baked, that must be patched 400 times or revamped a 4th as EQL. Bioware told us that Baldurs Gate would be ready when they are satisfied its ready and not one day, week, hour or month before. They deleivered. Im willing to give SOE all the time they need, until expansion. All i care is when the game moves forward so does the mechanics. __________________ Exxmortis

07-19-2005, 11:52 PM	#15
Exmortis_MT Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	Margen wrote: Not sure I agree with MT on wards being one of our best spells. As it stands now our wards take maybe 2 or 3 hits and are gone. Against a tough group/epic mob they really only last a single hit. For this reason the secondary effects like lifetap have really no use due to the unlikely hood that it will actually proc before ward disabates and an very low pct chance on proc number, think its 5pct off the top of my head. I personaly think I can count on one hand the number of times my ward has actually proced. To be honest I usally just use it as part of my aggro generation cycle. V/R Blackoath Considering the game is atleast 75% grp/solo now, and the last 25% spent raiding the same content, I'd say that makes the wrd incredibly useful. It has saved more then one guardian a death when things got tight. It has coem to the aid of many a caster in my grp, Its 601 more hp on pull. I have adept 3, and use it often. I dont even care about the proc, its 601 temp hp every 20secs, on whom ever in my grp needs it, just wish i could cast it raid wide, then SKS have an extra use, 601hp every 20secs for MT, for the entire darathar fight? priceless. Message Edited by Exmortis_MT on 07-19-2005 12:53 PM __________________ Exxmortis

07-20-2005, 06:06 AM	#16
Eyes_of_Truth Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 297	Im not a shadowkngiht but im gona amke one if they fix the lifetaps. I have worked outa formula that provides a balanced formula for hp healing and damage differance from paladin and shadowknight. If a SK has a 300 hp life tap (300 damage / 300 heal) for 100 power with a 14 second reuse timer and 1 second casting time, it can be cast every 15 seconds. Give paladin's 225 hp heal for 40 power, 2 second casting time with 5 second recast time, and give paladin a 150 nuke for 20 power with a 1 sec casting time and 14 second reuse time(maby add a small stun). When added together, that is 450 healing, and 150 damage, for the same 100 power. Lifetaps need to be unresistable for this balance to work. These numbers arnt exact, but they would scale according to level. Toodles!

07-20-2005, 07:08 AM	#17
Ishnar Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 423	Deadjester wrote: Wards are a issue all by itself. The problem is the effect they have and they way wards presently work, the effect and ward don't work together. In order for the effect to work, one of two things need to happen. One the wards need to be WAY BIGGER, but this could lead to a nasty imbalance with the incoming revamp. Two, Wards need to be a little bigger but stretch its effect over time. So instead of having a 600 pt ward stop 600 pts of mitigated damage right out. The ward only stops 40% of the incoming Mitigated Damage till all 600 pts are used up. Which as the effect of softening blows incoming which gives healers a easier time on healing and stretches the Ward out long enough that any effect it has, will have a much better chance of being of actualy use to the class it lands on. I saw a dev say somewhere that Wards were being fixed. Specifically, one thing mentioned was they would ward the mitigated damage where now they mitigate the full blow, which will make them absorb much more damage than before. With wards warding unmitigated damage much more is spilling over now than will be after the revamp. There was something else being done to improve wards, but I can't remember what it was if the dev even mentioned it. Ishnar

07-20-2005, 08:28 AM	#18
Deadjest Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 178	Thats not enough to work along with its side effect. As long as its going to have a side effect that, that effect should match the nature of what ever spell or ability its combined with, anything else is illogical. Its like milking a bull, you wont see a dairy farmer do that often. Yes they will work better after the revamp but it will NOT work well enough for the side effect to be worth having. Many of the side effects on our spells are not on the proper one to make them work properly. Like having a 5% slow effect on our taunt that last 1.2 secs is not logical, at worst it should be on our DoT and at best it should be on Tainted Caress. The present DoT barely last long enough to make it effecitve and Tainted Caress is perfect for it. If a spell of ours is to have a side effect it needs to be put on the proper spell in a manner that is best suited for the effect to work and be useful. The very idea of putting a effect on somthing that makes it worthless is mind boggling. Hopefully, they will do more then just let our Wards just mitigate based off our AC and bring it more in line to making the Effect work along with it. If it was to work in the manner I would like it to work, it would help us not only solo and group better but would have a added roll on raids.

07-20-2005, 08:59 AM	#19
Sha General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 25	Another thing to consider about the lifetaps, is that we HAVE to be in combat to use it. Compared to a pally, who can use it after a battle to get to full health before opening a chest (just an example), we have to stand toe-to-toe with a mob to get the health boost. So basicly, our lifetaps returns WAY to few HP to be effective, they are resisted, and can only be used in combat. I would say that qualifies for an upgrade with the revamp.

07-20-2005, 09:32 AM	#20
Trivon Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 25	This thread has brought up some important issues. I think that lifetaps definitely need to be 1:1 ratio it just makes logical sense. wards are well more of a manaburn then anything else atm. Besides being mitigated and increased effectiveness, wards NEED to last longer 24 seconds just doesn't cut it. In a raid situation if Icast a ward on myself to protect from an AE having a 24 second timer blows. I think SK wards should be like necro wards which last until cancelled. Good job on this thread guys keep posting feedback.

07-21-2005, 10:23 PM	#21
insen Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 49	First off I want to thank everyone that ripped my post appart. (And I mean that!) By doing so we have in a whole came up w/ some great brainstoming on what we would like to see and balancing the effects. Life tap: I do belive that Life taps should not be 1:1 ratio but you are all right that it should not be a 2:1 also... but instead make it a random from 1:1.5 to 1:0.5 and have the mobs resistent stats vs/ disease detrimine what the ratio will be, this way the spell is unresistable and still maintain some balance. Life taps should have a medium power usage Wards: Again the wards we have now do work well but need alot of tweaking, I do agree that the ward should only take a %age of the incoming damage and that times timers should be increased. IE. ward absorbs 20% damage, (no damage limit) 5% more DPS and a 5% chance to preform a life tap accourding to above. duration could be 1 min and a power useage should be meduim-high, Then each stacked ward would yeild less of damage absorbation %age. like if a pally throws up his ward it would add only 10% more but still yeild all effects of their ward. but healer wards should be stronger than ours and their %age would always be on top Group buff: The group buff life tap should work just as the same as a normail Life Tap but the ratios should be less like 1:1 to 1:0.25 And just to rant about some of our spells that do not effect epics, have spells remove certain things from them that you do not want like stifle and knockdown to then only when encountering an epic mob. Now I await for all of you to rip me apart again and come up w/ some better ideals Just another blood thirsty Shadow Knight

07-22-2005, 05:29 PM	#22
Exmortis_MT Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	insence wrote: And just to rant about some of our spells that do not effect epics, have spells remove certain things from them that you do not want like stifle and knockdown to then only when encountering an epic mob. Moorgard has already stated that part of the revamp is the removal of secondary effect vs mod resistance. Thus is you attempt to use an attack that has a stifle effect against a stifle resistantant mob, the attack will still work but the secondary effect will be ignored. Hence we get back our shield bash against epic foes...thank god we dont have enough taunts with out it. __________________ Exxmortis

07-23-2005, 06:52 AM	#23
Diern General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	Simply 1:1 just like EQL. I have said it once and ill say it again they need to look at the original model of the shadowknight and adjust accordingly with this new game. I really dont want to see them take another 5 years to get this class right

07-24-2005, 06:40 PM	#24
Deadjest Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 178	The more I think about it Life Taps are going to be tricky. Unlike a Paladin Heal, we have to face Spell Avoidance and Spell Mitigation. That is Two Negitive effects the Paladin Heals don't have to face. Which means the Life Tap will have to have a even greater effect then a Paladins Heal just to balance out Avoidance and Mitigation. On a good role we have a greater effect, on a bad roll, we have a lesser effect or no effect at all depending on how hard Spell Avoidance and Spell Mitigation kicks in. The down side for groups is that it can only be used for us unlike the Paladin Heal, or untill they come out with a group version. Would be interesting if they could come out with other forms of TAPs. Such as a Tap that Taps the mobs Power and converts it to a Heal for us. Self and Group Pure Power Taps. There is SO MUCH this game can do with the combat system they already have in place. Why I still wait around inspited of the imbalances that are going on, just so many possibilities for this game and the chance to push players more on a Tatical Base then a Grog swing weapon base.

07-25-2005, 05:09 PM	#25
Exmortis_MT Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	Deadjester wrote: The more I think about it Life Taps are going to be tricky. Unlike a Paladin Heal, we have to face Spell Avoidance and Spell Mitigation. Very true, but remember tho Pallies our are nemisis, they are not our balanced partner. SOE choose to make Pallies a defensive class, and SKs an offensive class, thus pallies are balanced vs Guards, and SKs balanced vs Zerkers. Not a bad idea actually. Pallies represent all the good in law and justice. They hearld the divinity and its powers to defend and hold the line of foes, to stand in harms way and help carve the path those behind can walk. The Paladin is a forward symbol of stalwart defense. Thus they get heals, rez, and buffs. SKs on the other hand represent all that is evil in law and justice. we are the reavers of that said divinity. We hearld the laws and bring down pain and suffering to those that woudl break our laws or seek to undermine them. SKs stand for the divine hand of punishment. Thus we get taps and vicious attacks. That is Two Negitive effects the Paladin Heals don't have to face. Which means the Life Tap will have to have a even greater effect then a Paladins Heal just to balance out Avoidance and Mitigation. On a good role we have a greater effect, on a bad roll, we have a lesser effect or no effect at all depending on how hard Spell Avoidance and Spell Mitigation kicks in. While I agree to some extent, the Sk tap is an attack, first and foremost. So it must be then balanced against DPS and what is expected of us in regards to said DPS. Taps also represent healability, and Pallies as defensive class, will have a higher healability rating then SKs, thus always expect them to have a higher heal then we have taps. SKs are reavers, we deal pain and suffernig. Personally I think SOE dropped the ball in not giving us more crippling type attacks, SKs shoudl be using vicious attacks that inflict pain and suffering, and thus have lasting effects upon our foes. Taps are not simply balanced aginst a heal, but against every facet we are, thus they can never meet the expectation of a paladin heal. The down side for groups is that it can only be used for us unlike the Paladin Heal, or untill they come out with a group version. Upside is, when dps is caleld for we can hammer our taps away, Pallies heal is of no use when hes expected to dps. Would be interesting if they could come out with other forms of TAPs. Such as a Tap that Taps the mobs Power and converts it to a Heal for us. Self and Group Pure Power Taps. You must leave room for new things? Isnt kewl to gain a new abiity with each expansion? Thus fleshing out our class over time? As much as I agree here, and would enjoy those, wouldnt be nice to leave some for later? There is SO MUCH this game can do with the combat system they already have in place. Why I still wait around inspited of the imbalances that are going on, just so many possibilities for this game and the chance to push players more on a Tatical Base then a Grog swing weapon base. 1:1 taps do not make for tactics. Unfortunately there is only so much a game can handle. Yuo want htis kind of action and play? where intelligence and ability to think reigns? Then get a group of 6 or 8 peeps and play a RGP for real. I liek MMOs, but no game engine can ever replace the fun and excitment of the real thing, I have played D&D now since 81. This is one thread i hope SOE is reading. __________________ Exxmortis

07-26-2005, 01:14 AM	#26
Deadjest Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 178	Actualy I have a RPG group every sunday =) And what I say in my posts arent directed at any one expansion but at the idealism of the Sk and what it could be and possibilities, if they do in this or next expansion, its all good. I know in EQL we had tatics going on, at times FD pulling was simple and somtimes it was a 15 mins of crazyness as my group waited as I would slowly get a named past a ton of mobs. But its different here but that doesnt take away the chance for other types of tatics to from out of what we have or may have as the game grows. In EQL our life taps were around the 65% range of a heal I believe, so between our nuke and heal effect we came out better for it but weaker on a indvidual level. One of my hopes is they change some of our side effects to somthing that could make more use of it. Such as the slow effect on our taunt, put that on our DoT or Cursed Caress. But its mostly its all food for thought. Maybe they will read somthing they will like or ingore it, either way, I did what I could. =)

07-26-2005, 07:38 AM	#27
Diern General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	In EQL they eventually gave us fast casting lifetaps that had a heavy modifier to the resist check something like -200. This had the effect of only being resisted by Creatures that were completely immune to magic (very few). Its very frustrating to me that they are repeating the very same mistakes the original development team made with the EQlive shadowknight. I know this is an entirely different game and isnt supposed to be EQlive, but you would think they would at least have an idea about what works and what doesnt with this class.

07-26-2005, 08:17 AM	#28
Deadjest Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 178	Compared to EQL, SKs in EQ2 Tank much much better and closer to our fellow Tanks. A few more tweeks and we will be even closer yet in the revamp. But some how we seemed to have lost the Flavor of being a SK. I am not sure how the other Class's feel, but I don't feel like a SK here, just a Warrior with a few disease attacks and some goofy bird that I picked up off some drunk navy guy who needed money for more beer to make that bearded dwarf [Removed for Content] look better. How they thought giving us pets that look like the next generation of Uber Turds then on to the Killer Pigeon would add to our flavor I will never know. It would be nice that while we are in Skelly form to look like the Skellys in armor in the Bloodline and get a pet that looks like the specter dogs in Nek Castle. Lets get some armor with some spikes or nasty designs on it and etc etc Ya I know its only graphics but heck our powers don't make me feel like a SK either, our dots look goofy with a purple ball flying out to short of a duration vs its power usage and our buffs have this odd look to. Only thing that has looked cool so far is some of the procs effects with the Purple Skull. As for the actualy effect, they almost seem the same as any other power but with a different name on it. And they do nothing different from the other class's for the most part. Bah, rant off. What was supposed to be a simple response just sorta took off on its own.

07-26-2005, 11:49 AM	#29
OogallySolRoSK Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: GROBB! Posts: 31	It's not hard at all. Sure, Pallies are defensive and Sks are offensive tanks. So if a pally heal does, say, 400, our lifetap should do 200 damage and heal us for 200. The pally gets a better heal, we get damage and half a heal. The mob sees the heal and damage/heal as the same for purposes of aggro. Instead, our lifetaps are so woefully inadequate when compared to pally heals. Have partial lifetaps go off in case of resists. It should be a comparative value. Not necessarily equal to pallies, but close. It won't ever be the same heal (pallies get 400, we get 200 as example) but close enough that we should be a little better at healing ourselves. __________________ Thank you all for the tremendous outpouring of support for Ribbitribbitt.

07-26-2005, 04:52 PM	#30
Exmortis_MT Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	Deadjester wrote: Actualy I have a RPG group every sunday =) Kewlio. I play 3.5 edition D&D and really enjoying the new system. D20 is the best thing to hit RPGs since Gary Gygax was born. I play a, about to be 12th level Half-Elven Wizard, specialist Enchanter. First fro anyoen in my group to see done and a first for me, im partial to Necromancers. But its fun, different and just flows with RP possibilities, really been fun. And what I say in my posts arent directed at any one expansion but at the idealism of the Sk and what it could be and possibilities, if they do in this or next expansion, its all good. Yes I am hoping that after revamp we have a great foundation for the expansin to now breath life into the classes. I think SOE has done a marvelous job to now, they just need to get off the cardboard work, and now make them unique. All houses look similar when they are just foundations, now its time to build the real characters. I know in EQL we had tatics going on, at times FD pulling was simple and somtimes it was a 15 mins of crazyness as my group waited as I would slowly get a named past a ton of mobs. But its different here but that doesnt take away the chance for other types of tatics to from out of what we have or may have as the game grows. FD pullen was a bit of a skill but i dont consider it a tactic. Just flop around until u have as few mobs as u can handle linked. BUt I agree eq1 is simplified, but so it was in eq1 was new. Every one expects a totalyl new game to be as mature and developed as eq1, but that takes time, and it isnt all that old. In EQL our life taps were around the 65% range of a heal I believe, so between our nuke and heal effect we came out better for it but weaker on a indvidual level. Yes in EQ1 taps were a big deal. But one must understand that what happened in eq1 doesnt mean jack here. Evil knights in tons of other games didnt have such abilities so thats not a marker of absolutism. I just hope they bring them up from 98hp at 50. One of my hopes is they change some of our side effects to somthing that could make more use of it. Such as the slow effect on our taunt, put that on our DoT or Cursed Caress. Yes I have said this many times to friends. SOE shoudl have made the SK have very kewl side effects, making us cripplers, not healers. But its mostly its all food for thought. Maybe they will read somthing they will like or ingore it, either way, I did what I could. =) We can only hope. __________________ Exxmortis