Sk that much better than pally?

ins4nity11 · 05-03-2005, 06:57 AM

Ok, i am thinking about making a pally or sk, i kind of want to go pally, because of the heals, but I also have many reasons for sk, my main and crafter are in fp, i can lvl faster in cl etc. I just wanted to know if an sk does a lot more dmg than a pally, and who is a better tank. Thx a lot, and i can guess that a lot of other noobs have asked this before, so sry.

Ishnar · 05-03-2005, 07:27 AM

They are going to do a major combat revision sometime in the near future. So whatever our current abilities are, they won't be the same next month.

Moorgard did say that SKs are supposed to do more damage than pallies. and pallies are supposed to have better defense. So it is probably better to go by the projections instead of the past.

Ishnar

pyroglyph · 05-03-2005, 12:01 PM

When all is said and done, it looks like Paladins and Guardians will be more defensive tanks, while Berserkers and Shadowknights will be more offensive. Decide what you like to play.

Personally, I think Shadowknights have some pretty incredible AoE abilities when compared to Paladins and wouldn't trade them for anything.

That, and Paladins are fruity.

TheGeneral · 05-03-2005, 03:18 PM

We tank pretty well and have decent DPS. Where our real unseen power lies is in AE damage. I love having multiple mobs to fight. Our AE dps and aggro managment have to be one of our definant strengths.

Rha · 05-03-2005, 03:57 PM

pallys suck in my opinion (healing fighters lol) im playin a SK and it is the coolest Fighter Class of all , and i like hybrids and more the evil side Tankin sucks on both classes a bit cause the Taunts are sometimes really useless(dont know why) , if u have a mage 2 levels + in group , u can forget it to taunt the mob off him, that sucks really I prefer to play with mages especially Chanters(high aggro) if make more dmg ok but please give us better Taunts only have Inflame and sth. with Decree and both are green to me (33 SK)

Margen · 05-04-2005, 04:29 AM

Both crusader classes have problems it seems with aggro management, we can do it, but we have to burn a lot of power to do it versus warrior classes. especially if we god forbid lose aggro, if I don't have rescue (dang 30min timer) up I have very little chance to do it in a timely fashion. I personnely think this is one of our most important issues. Really don't understand why Guardians are the best in mitigation (as they should be) AND depending on who you believe 1st or 2nd best in aggro management (which I don't think they should be).

V/R

Blackoath 31st Troll Shadow Knight

Rylight · 05-04-2005, 07:06 AM

We deal out very decent damage, and are definitly one of the solo kings. whether soloing defensivly or offensively we can do things other tanks cant, such as deal damage while healing ourselves, and tossing on a pet for extra dps, the pet not only does dps but absorbs our buffs, meaning the pet actually gets the chance to heal itself in battle. and do varacouis soul attacks.

when in a group we rely on our Aoe's to keep aggro and dish it out to all the mobs, you'd be surprised how worn the other mobs are after you kill the first mob and move on to the second, its life is drained significantly. the third mob is even worse off, and the fourth is easy pickings.

not only that, but when you solo a soloable group, we really shine. we can sick out pet on the first mob while attacking another, and aoe them all at once. in a solo group of three, you can take out the first two mobs and be done cause by then the pet will (75% of the time) have already killed the 3rd mob,

there are many other reasons to pick sk, we can get out of sticky situations with FD or even run past dangerous group mobs then FD and lose aggro to get to a certian area ( this works well when you need to get to the mining shaft in zek and the orc mechanics are guarding the bridge) these are just a few examples.

Collaud · 05-04-2005, 06:55 PM

I played an SK and paladin in parallel up to 24 (identical equipment and similarly upgraded spells/arts). During that time, I did a ton of reading and research into both classes. Let's just say that my SK hasn't been played for weeks and my paladin is now almost level 30. My decision had very little to do with good vs. evil, although Freeport gets really old after a while and finding SK spells/arts on the broker can be frustrating on Crushbone. My decision was based mainly on soloability since I'm a very casual gamer. My paladin was just far more soloable in his mid-20s with his heals and lay hands. And I honestly don't see that changing.

At 26, SKs get a pet for a nice DPS boost, however, paladins get oath strike at 28. Oath strike gives a paladin comparable DPS to an SK + pet (according to the parses I've seen). SKs also aren't nearly as durable. SK wards and lifetaps are way underpowered, but paladins have two very effective heals to use tough situations. For example, I could kill green heroic casters with my paladin simply by outlasting them with heals until they ran out of power. My SK would have folded before the mob was at 50% power.

I hope this changes with the combat revamp because I really want to play my SK again.

ins4nity11 · 05-05-2005, 04:08 AM

Well, Im not really looking for a solo class, seeing as how I already have a bruiser, and can solo any time, I want the one that is best for groups, and seeing as how the pally's strong point seems to be heals, and while in a group, you will most likely have a healer to do that for you, I am somewhat leaning towards pally. Also, I am guessing that the majority of you are sks', hate qeynos, and pallys', so it may be a little bias lol.

Diern · 05-05-2005, 05:13 AM

Seriously, wait until the Combat changes come in till you make a desicion. That said doesnt look promising for shadowknights, we look to be hit with the same curse that happened in eq1.

A DPS tank has NO role in the end game, and people will always take a paladin or guardian over a DPS tank, because they dont get a tank to inflict damage. They get assasins, Warlocks to do that.

Templa · 05-05-2005, 10:58 PM

Diernes wrote:

Seriously, wait until the Combat changes come in till you make a desicion. That said doesnt look promising for shadowknights, we look to be hit with the same curse that happened in eq1.

A DPS tank has NO role in the end game, and people will always take a paladin or guardian over a DPS tank, because they dont get a tank to inflict damage. They get assasins, Warlocks to do that.

I don't think it'll ever be our DPS that gives us a place in raids, it'll be our other aggro skills if they can get cleaned up a bit... not being 50 yet, I don't know whether they are good or bad. It's how well we can keep the mob on us that will make the difference.

Braell · 05-06-2005, 02:34 AM

We pretty much have the same spells as Paladins, theirs haveing a slightly more Defensive twist than ours.

Painbringer and upgrades for us has a aoe dot, the equiv f

Braell · 05-06-2005, 02:34 AM

We pretty much have the same spells as Paladins, theirs haveing a slightly more Defensive twist than ours.

Painbringer and upgrades for us has a aoe dot, the equiv for

Braell · 05-06-2005, 02:56 AM

We pretty much have the same spells as Paladins, theirs haveing a slightly more Defensive twist than ours.

Painbringer and upgrades for us has a aoe dot, the equiv for paladins has a single target dot as far as i know, again as far as i believe the other paladin aoes have an stun component added.

Skills for us that have small lifetap type procs, for paladin have hate built in. (not sure if thats instant hate or a proced hate.)

Instead of a pet they have a heal that consumes an essence, heals can add a bit to the threat during a fight, pets do not really - so in some ways they get some extra agro generating means than us, But mainly you need to ask yourself if you would rather have a heal or a pet etc.

Lay hands vs harmtouch etc.

Though both class share the problem that we suffer from agro loss when forced to slow down the pace of combat arts/spells due to power useage - while others can chip in with attacks and keep agro easier - i would probably say Paladins have a slightly easier time mainly because of healing agro, though beware of Paladins at low 20's useing a 1-handed weapon and shield, as often the agro is wavering on a thin line at best due to cripplingly poor damage being delt.

Other than that we have spells/combat arts that fill the same role just in a different way, ours on disease/slashing aoe dots, lifetaps and pets - theirs on divine/slashing single target dots, stuns and heals.

And as a side note - i expect when combat changes come live - though i imagine all that will happen is we get some slight alterations in debuffs added to attacks, hopefully better lifetap options and some better dots, tweaked spells etc, and i imagine the paladin will probably get something added to stuns, alteration to buffs, though anything is possible.

Braellar

Braell · 05-06-2005, 03:13 AM

Ohh and one small note i just remembered, Divine damage seems easier to land when you first start becomeing a paladin vs a lot of ours at those levels, while the spells/combat arts examined show comparable damage i always found equal paladins to be able to just hit that slight bit higher on spells than me due to resists - this is only really seen if you either compare closely, at the end of a fight it will barely add seconds to the difference.

There are a lot of tiny things that mainly show up when you play multiple fighters around the same level - i know for me with my Shadowknight and Berserker, it wasnt until level 29 that my Shadowknight started to close the gap - and one thing i would recomend anyone trying to decide to keep playing a paladin or shadowknight, upgrade the pet spell to as high as you get, some skills you can get by with at (apprentise 1) and live, the pet isnt one of them imho - all mine ever done when i first got it was miss anything i would hunt, and in groups peformed even worse - even if you can get an App IV it's definatly worth doing it, that and i never saw an adept for the first pet drop compared to the rest of the skills which i have seen most drop except a couple.

Braellar

tawek · 05-28-2005, 06:11 AM

This comparison between SKs and Pallys is very interesting. It sounds like you guys think you have similar power to pallys, and some think you are better. But you feel underpowered compared to Berzerkers and Guardians.

I'm only a level 35 pally, but I think most pallys are reasonably content with how we compare to other classes.

Your comments make me wonder if my impressions are wrong.

Are pally's as underpowered as SKs?

Or maybe SKs aren't underpowered, after all?

Or maybe SKs are actually inferior to pallys?

But probably it's less about being underpowered, and more usefulness in a raid situation, and that the utility skills you guys have just don't add much to a raid.

I don't know enough about SK's, so please add/correct what I've missed out in the following.

As far as I can see, the major extras you have over pallys are:

Feign death - seems to me a great way to rescue a situation where a group member has grabbed aggro, but perhaps it doesn't work so well in practice. Only works against level 45 mobs or lower. Of course also very useful if group is relying on you to rez the cleric from a wipe. Probably not much use in a raid.
Evac at 44. Less use in a raid, where there'll be evacers to spare.
Your pet is great for soloing, but limited use in a raid.
You get extra attacks, AoE, and debuffs, which make you a better dps; and, of course, Harm Touch.

In contrast, the pallys have:

Aggro transfer skills, especially the Redemption skill. This transfers a significant fraction of the targets agro. An incredibly useful skill in a raid. If cast on the main healer or the biggest dps, it can save deaths.
Rez at 44. (Little use in a raid, where there will be priests to spare)
Healing every 7 seconds. Which will save the healer a little mana and aggro, may be useful as a secondary healer, such as when someone other than the MT uses a manastone. If the healer(s) can't keep up with the damage on the MT, that extra healing may make all the difference, expecially if combined with a lay-on-hands.
Our dps isn't bad, but I understand not as good as yours, which is as it should be.

We can both offer three buffs to the main tank in a raid: donating some of our mitigation, buffing their avoidance, and buffing their attributes. But maybe people don't know SKs can do that, because it's so against your image. The donating of mitigation is competely contrary to the SK evil ethos: maybe you guys are reluctant to use this ability for roleplay reasons, and your image in a raid suffers as a result.

It seems to me the classes may be reasonably balanced. Though I just haven't grouped with enough SKs to know in practice.

Your extra dps will help you solo, but with more downtime waiting for health recovery. You are probably better in a small group with a healer: you take down the mobs faster, and with a healer have little downtime. But frankly, I'm very happy with my ability to solo and duo, and find my healing ability incredibly useful, even when partnered with a priest.

In a full group, with more dps, our aggro transfer skills start to shine, and even more so in a raid.

Having read a few threads comparing the two classes, it seems to me where you have problems is in a raid. We both have some nice utility skills, but yours are less useful in a fully rounded group/raid. And where pally's really score is Redemption.

Although balanced elsewhere, you don't have any unique selling point for a raid. In my opinion, SoE should add one.

Perhaps an option to reduce the timer on Rescue to 10 minutes, so where Pally's can only use Rescue in an extreme emergency, when playing secondary tank, SK's use it to pull a mob off the healer knowing they'll have it back before long. Or maybe an enhnancement to your Feign Death to make it more reliable/useful in that situation. But, your ideas will be better, you know your class. Or maybe a powerful taunt on a slow timer.

There's no question I will still prefer the pally. I am more defensive by nature, and enjoy boosting my group, more than hurting the enemy. I suspect you guys, as players, enjoy being damage dealers/debuffers more than being able to heal.

If your enhancements aren't too great, but just make your class more raid friendly, I wouldn't mind. And as long as they keep us different: after all neither of us would want our classes to converge. I want to remain as unlike those vicious, arrogant, backstabbing SKs as possible.

VonStein · 05-29-2005, 11:51 PM

Can only speak about this into the mid 20's..... currently 24 Pally and 26 SK.... but...

My Pally can solo much easier than my SK.... Pally can do Blue ^^... SK can only do Green ^^....

Pally has 2 swings which heal for 45 and 21 respectivly (with 2 hand sword )... SK only heals for 21 or so...

SK... Wards are counterproductive against hard hitting critters as they do not mitigate damage when they drop, so you may actually take MORE damage... and Lifetap seldom if ever procs...

Pally... currently heals for more than my SK's ward... and thats mitigated damage to boot...

But SK gets a cool black horse... Pally gets a dandified white horse.... LOL....

Zoradan · 05-30-2005, 10:18 AM

tawek21

You have a few points correct but let me corect/add some if I may:

All points from a 50 raid point of view:

Feign death - seems to me a great way to rescue a situation where a group member has grabbed aggro, but perhaps it doesn't work so well in practice. Only works against level 45 mobs or lower. Of course also very useful if group is relying on you to rez the cleric from a wipe. Probably not much use in a raid.
Evac at 44. Less use in a raid, where there'll be evacers to spare.
Your pet is great for soloing, but limited use in a raid.
You get extra attacks, AoE, and debuffs, which make you a better dps; and, of course, Harm Touch.

1) FD: Usless after aboguth 35, not 45. You can not save a cleric or any one elce, it's not EQ fd, it crap eqwatereddown2 FD. We drop for 10 sec, then get up, no if no and or but, 90% of the time the mobs are still agro and your dead. It's a fun spell to cast in rping thats abught it.

2) You don't evac from raids. You evac from the instance to the zone line so ya dont have to walk. SMILEY

3) Very usfule for solo or hard mobs in 2-3 man groups. It's actualy very usfule on hard raids when the dps may be down, 8 maning a 4x mob, but the stacking issue with only one pet hampers multipule sk's. AND it's a flipping chicken, gime an undead anything!

4) Truth is, haist and gear realy deturmins dps between a sk and pally. Depending who I'm with and who our Pally is with one will out dps the other. Aoe helps me in very short fights but longer fights I can burn my power so fast even with crack and manastone that my dps spikes then drops off. I can manage 230+ on some fights, so can our Pally, we both can out dps our scounts depending on the mobs slash/peirce resistances due to blunt 2 handers. HT is a junk spell, 1k ever 15 min that dosent get rez at best is not dps, it's a joke.

Pallys:

Aggro transfer skills, especially the Redemption skill. This transfers a significant fraction of the targets agro. An incredibly useful skill in a raid. If cast on the main healer or the biggest dps, it can save deaths.
Rez at 44. (Little use in a raid, where there will be priests to spare)
Healing every 7 seconds. Which will save the healer a little mana and aggro, may be useful as a secondary healer, such as when someone other than the MT uses a manastone. If the healer(s) can't keep up with the damage on the MT, that extra healing may make all the difference, expecially if combined with a lay-on-hands.
Our dps isn't bad, but I understand not as good as yours, which is as it should be.

1) Cool, didn't know that.

2) Pally Rez is so importaint on raids it's not even funny. a) 40% (or is it 60?) hp/power = uber, also it's a 15 sec recast, if your combat rezing pally = god. It's probly the single BEST thing a pally brings to a raid.

3) Pally while not a great healer can be used as a healer for a dps/utility group when short on healers.

4) See above.

I agree with you 100% on the rest of your topic, good to see a snoby noise in the air do-gooder who can think SMILEY

Diern · 05-30-2005, 12:42 PM

There is an old saying from EQL regarding the choice between Paladin or shadowknight.

If you have to ask, roll a Paladin!

Hicar · 05-30-2005, 05:05 PM

I am a level 50 sk, in both a raiding guild and in a fixed group. I didn't put much time in comparing myself with paladins, but i can still put forward what i consider are our strong points.

First of all, sk at lvl 50 is very very different from sk at say lvl 25. At lvl 50, when no reactive heals are used (for instance when cleaning trash lvl 49 ^^ mobs in PF on our way to drayek) i can steal agro to a guardian who is trying. I can hold agro very well in my group. However, yesterday i happened to mentor down to lvl 25 along with my warden buddy. In no way i could hold agro to him (adept 3 decrey of decay, adept 3 unyieldin advance, adept 1 inflame). There is really a change in power in later levels. Mentoring down to 35 - makes me sick with my class, when i am very very happy with it at lvl 50.

For potency, i was off tank in the froglok raid in CT yesterday in encounters when there were more than 1 ^^^. Needed collective work to get agro first hand because the reactive heals usually put on main tank who is puller too gives him a very big boost in agro, but once i got it, i didn't loose it, and i was staying alive against lvl 54 ^^^ (or was it 55).

More to the point : Our strong point i think is 2 overlooked spells : cursed caress and syphon strength. When soloing, some mobs that are hitting me when i am 1H + shield and debuffs down aren't hitting me when i wield 2h and debuffs are up. On raids, my warden friend can tell when my debuffs are up or down, and we synchronize to make sure my debuffs are up when he has to refresh his defense buff (30 s recast).

Second strong point at lvl 50 is despoiling mist, our ac debuff. Can't remember the numbers (am at work atm), but it's something like a 1400 mitigation debuff at adept 3. My assassin friend, with adept 3 assassination (lvl 50 PA) goes from 2000 - 3000 w/o debuff to 4000 - 5000 + with debuff (pulling number a little out of my hat, but that's really the idea. i could check on eq2players for his biggest hit, but i am pretty sure he made 5000 + several times after debuff, which caused to die once or twice on raids when mob got angry =)).

Granted keeping debuffs up hits a lot of mana. When i focus on them as only sk on raid, i just auto attack, a few other mana efficient DD, but not much, and i don't forget to putmy adept 3 pet on the mob (he can hit over 300 with despoiling mist)). If another sk is here, we can split the debuff and use more other skills.

Life tap procs aren't made for usual single target raid mob, as they don't hit often and for big number. Tank is full life, and suddenly he is at 60 pct. Priest heals make the difference. It's not the 100 hp heal from your life tap proc buff that will make a difference even if it procs when tank isn't full life. It can make a difference along with a good resist gear when it comes to staying in melee range of a pbae mob. For instance, i could stay hitting the mob in Menagerie epic instance when most of others had to back up from time to time until getting a heal. Btw, to raise proc rates, use slow weapon. Doesn't change auto attack, but changes a lot when using combat arts.

But they are very nice in groups when your life goes down more steadily and priests can take their time to heal you to be sure not to overheal. It adds nice dps when in melee groups, and of course, they help a lot with agro.

The rest is just normal tank skills i think. Those last points (debuffs and pet especially) are our particularity, and i feel they really aren't to be overlooked.

Only think i really would like to change is the epic limitation on our shield taunt line, when paladin equivalent had no restriction last time i looked to the master I version of it. Sucks to have to resort to our tier 2 spell on that line when tanking epic.

Jaaghica, Runnyeye

PS : and of course, graven embrace, to punish a group mate that had a direspectfull word to you.

Message Edited by Hicarse on 05-30-2005 06:09 AM

Hicar · 05-30-2005, 05:05 PM

grrr

Message Edited by Hicarse on 05-30-200506:05 AM

Message Edited by Hicarse on 05-30-2005 06:06 AM

tawek · 05-31-2005, 08:28 AM

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Zoradan,

I've heard others say Graven Embrace is useless, but not all. Have you read the following thread?

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=9093 ("Re: Graven Embrace is *very* mislabeled at level 50.")
Some SKs in that thread claim Graven Embrace can be useful. They also say that the 45 level limit in the spell description is wrong. That can work on level 54 mobs.

With its short duration, it won't work the same as the EQ version. But if it has a reasonable chance to take against the mobs you are fighting, I can think of several situations where it would be useful: If someone is about to die. If they are graven embraced, you have 10 seconds to do something about it. You can use rescue, taunts, stun, or maybe your enchanter can mez in that time. Maybe your healer can heal them (can you heal someone feigning?). Your scout (or you, lol) might have time to do an Evac.

I'm guessing you've found, after lev 35, mobs see through it too often. I'm curious if there are reasons the others have found differently.

In my opinion, if it works, or can be fixed, it's a great ability to give an SK, both in usefulness, and fitting your nasty ethos. It's linked to death, deceptive, and the SK is arrogantly compelling another to play dead ... my only worry is it could be used to grief a fellow group member. If it could be used effectively on raids, wouldn't it be a help in your bid for a slot?

I'm interested in your, and other peoples, comments about how good high-end SK and Paladin dps gets. My guess is if you are right, but I'll never experience it, because the high-end paladin dps will be nerfed long before I get there. But on the boards you read so many contradictory statements about relative dps for different classes.

As VonSteinan's post shows us, although end-game power is important, but we mustn't forget character power in the mid-game. If a character is too weak for 80% of its life, then gets balanced right at the end, that isn't proper class balance. As you were levelling, how did you find SK dps versus the other tank classes? It seems to me, as you have less defensive abilities than a guardian, paladin or berzerker, you should have better debuf/dps skills than any of them, or good utility skills to make up for it.

Regarding the Redemption skill, I've only started thinking about using it. When I don't have agro problems, it uses 2 concentration slots, which I'm loath to give up. But I used it on a Torig raid recently, and I don't think the warlock in my group got agro once. I was tempted to use it on the main healer as well, then realised I'd probably end up stealing agro, and as I wasn't main tank, that wouldn't be very popular ... and I'd probably be very dead.

Diernes,
lol. I know what you mean. Why anyone would want to suck up to a egotistical manaic like the Pompous One, is beyond me. Anyone who calls themselves Overlord must be compensating for some serious self-image problems. (ooc: my highest on EQ1 was an SK)

Hicarse,

Thanks for your post. Most posts in this forum seem to just complain, and have the unfortunate effect of trashing their own classes reputation for being worth grouping with. I hadn't realised your debuffs were so important, good to hear. And just nice to hear someone who is positive about their class.

I'm interested by what you say about a slower weapon being better for procs. I'd always assumed that proc's would have an equal chance of firing every time you hit, and so a faster weapon would be better. Is the opposite the case?

Hicar · 05-31-2005, 10:07 AM

When auto attacking, your chance of proc is adjusted to delay. Which means over an hour, you'll have the same amount of procs. But when you are doing a combat art, you also have a chance to proc, with the delay adjusted chance. But your combat art recast isn't adjusted. Which means you are doing as much combat arts, and get more procs. and procs have same value.

Diern · 05-31-2005, 11:22 AM

lol. I know what you mean. Why anyone would want to suck up to a egotistical manaic like the Pompous One, is beyond me. Anyone who calls themselves Overlord must be compensating for some serious self-image problems. (ooc: my highest on EQ1 was an SK)

I am not sure that you do. hehe. Its more along the lines of If you have to ask why, you dont have the mindset to play an evil knight and should roll a pansy palladin one.

Message Edited by Diernes on 05-31-2005 12:23 AM

Zoradan · 06-01-2005, 06:55 AM

tawek21

I saw that post some time ago, and wan't willing to spend the $ on a palladnium cluster to upgrade FD and bother testing it in a raid zone. As you said IF soe ever flushed it out then it might be a great spell, honestly right now it's just a fun spell. The truth is the last 4 times I have used it was twice to beat my friend in a race to the zone line (FD gives ya a great head start), once to FD an Assasin in a exp group (while hanging with friends) who bet me 5 gold he could get the kill shot on a named, and the last one was to FD our Chanter so we could molest her while she was on the ground.

Usfule hu? did make me 5 gold tho....

As for DPS, I dont think you Pallys are in for a nerf, from the way things our sounding you may get a defencive bost but thats abought it, I think SK's will probly end up sitting the same as we are now, maby some power/dps changes to some spells to help. I honestly think thats all that will put us over Pallys as "dps" tanks (wich is a silly way of putting it were all tanks).

Ya know I never once felt like a bad tank ALL thru exping. In the early 30's it was a little hard to hold agro, but that was other classes peaking at some things befor our round of taunts and spells kicked. Other than that I have tanked Giants in Sol eye in a 3 man group at lvl 44, run up and down RE at lvl 34 as one of the requested tanks cause I knew the Miners pull and got it right 90% of the time. My morning exp grind group was always the same crew we all meshed together. So I never felt under powered as a lvling SK.

Let us know more how the redemption thing works, might be usfule on an over agro scout class to.

Have fun man, catch ya in game.

Bron · 06-01-2005, 07:59 PM

Hicarse wrote:
More to the point : Our strong point i think is 2 overlooked spells : cursed caress and syphon strength. When soloing, some mobs that are hitting me when i am 1H + shield and debuffs down aren't hitting me when i wield 2h and debuffs are up. On raids, my warden friend can tell when my debuffs are up or down, and we synchronize to make sure my debuffs are up when he has to refresh his defense buff (30 s recast).

Though I do like cursed caress, the 6 point debuff pales in comparison to what some other classes get, and I'm not just talking casters, many melee can debuff this as well and do it by more than we can. It also seems to be somewhat hard to land on raid mobs consistently (if you can land it at all i.e. Vaz'Gok Pkzkr, etc). Siphon Strength, even at adept3, drops the target's STR by a measly 15 points. I don't have any parses to prove that this is very ineffective, but I know in my own personal experience, I've noticed little if any difference with this spell on or off.Definitely abilities SKs should keep in mind, but I certainly wouldn't call them our "strengths". I still use them on raids though, because hey, every little bit counts.

YummiOger · 06-02-2005, 06:40 AM

In response to OP ...

As it Stands right now..

SKs and Pallies both run close on DPS, with SKs comming out on top by a little.

BUT the real diff is the Tanking Ability, As it stands with the Ward bug, SKs will never be able to out tank a pally with both comperabily eqipt. The pally self heals and the Aggro-Transfering spell they get (fogot name), make them FAR better at tanking than SKs.

Yummy Izbad

50SK

50Armorer

Imperium

05-03-2005, 12:01 PM	#3
pyroglyph Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 67	When all is said and done, it looks like Paladins and Guardians will be more defensive tanks, while Berserkers and Shadowknights will be more offensive. Decide what you like to play. Personally, I think Shadowknights have some pretty incredible AoE abilities when compared to Paladins and wouldn't trade them for anything. That, and Paladins are fruity. __________________

05-03-2005, 03:18 PM	#4
TheGeneral Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: ATL Posts: 544	We tank pretty well and have decent DPS. Where our real unseen power lies is in AE damage. I love having multiple mobs to fight. Our AE dps and aggro managment have to be one of our definant strengths. __________________

05-04-2005, 04:29 AM	#6
Margen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 648	Both crusader classes have problems it seems with aggro management, we can do it, but we have to burn a lot of power to do it versus warrior classes. especially if we god forbid lose aggro, if I don't have rescue (dang 30min timer) up I have very little chance to do it in a timely fashion. I personnely think this is one of our most important issues. Really don't understand why Guardians are the best in mitigation (as they should be) AND depending on who you believe 1st or 2nd best in aggro management (which I don't think they should be). V/R Blackoath 31st Troll Shadow Knight __________________ Blackoath Uglyone 80 Shadow Knight of Chaos Phang 80 Swashbuckler of Chaos You EVER going to fix SKs Sony?

05-04-2005, 07:06 AM	#7
Rylight Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 572	We deal out very decent damage, and are definitly one of the solo kings. whether soloing defensivly or offensively we can do things other tanks cant, such as deal damage while healing ourselves, and tossing on a pet for extra dps, the pet not only does dps but absorbs our buffs, meaning the pet actually gets the chance to heal itself in battle. and do varacouis soul attacks. when in a group we rely on our Aoe's to keep aggro and dish it out to all the mobs, you'd be surprised how worn the other mobs are after you kill the first mob and move on to the second, its life is drained significantly. the third mob is even worse off, and the fourth is easy pickings. not only that, but when you solo a soloable group, we really shine. we can sick out pet on the first mob while attacking another, and aoe them all at once. in a solo group of three, you can take out the first two mobs and be done cause by then the pet will (75% of the time) have already killed the 3rd mob, there are many other reasons to pick sk, we can get out of sticky situations with FD or even run past dangerous group mobs then FD and lose aggro to get to a certian area ( this works well when you need to get to the mining shaft in zek and the orc mechanics are guarding the bridge) these are just a few examples. __________________ Episode 2 part 2 of my MOVIE series, Rylight the chronicles of pain can be found here http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=screen&message.id=14051

05-05-2005, 10:58 PM	#11
Templa Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 20	Diernes wrote: Seriously, wait until the Combat changes come in till you make a desicion. That said doesnt look promising for shadowknights, we look to be hit with the same curse that happened in eq1. A DPS tank has NO role in the end game, and people will always take a paladin or guardian over a DPS tank, because they dont get a tank to inflict damage. They get assasins, Warlocks to do that. I don't think it'll ever be our DPS that gives us a place in raids, it'll be our other aggro skills if they can get cleaned up a bit... not being 50 yet, I don't know whether they are good or bad. It's how well we can keep the mob on us that will make the difference. __________________ Searic Grimscale - Shadowknight of Blackburrow Member of Wrath "To be Iksar is to have all others serve them." - History of the Iksar - Part I

05-03-2005, 06:57 AM	#1
ins4nity11 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 48	Ok, i am thinking about making a pally or sk, i kind of want to go pally, because of the heals, but I also have many reasons for sk, my main and crafter are in fp, i can lvl faster in cl etc. I just wanted to know if an sk does a lot more dmg than a pally, and who is a better tank. Thx a lot, and i can guess that a lot of other noobs have asked this before, so sry.

05-03-2005, 07:27 AM	#2
Ishnar Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 423	They are going to do a major combat revision sometime in the near future. So whatever our current abilities are, they won't be the same next month. Moorgard did say that SKs are supposed to do more damage than pallies. and pallies are supposed to have better defense. So it is probably better to go by the projections instead of the past. Ishnar

05-03-2005, 03:57 PM	#5
Rha Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 33	pallys suck in my opinion (healing fighters lol) im playin a SK and it is the coolest Fighter Class of all , and i like hybrids and more the evil side Tankin sucks on both classes a bit cause the Taunts are sometimes really useless(dont know why) , if u have a mage 2 levels + in group , u can forget it to taunt the mob off him, that sucks really I prefer to play with mages especially Chanters(high aggro) if make more dmg ok but please give us better Taunts only have Inflame and sth. with Decree and both are green to me (33 SK)

05-04-2005, 06:55 PM	#8
Collaud Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 89	I played an SK and paladin in parallel up to 24 (identical equipment and similarly upgraded spells/arts). During that time, I did a ton of reading and research into both classes. Let's just say that my SK hasn't been played for weeks and my paladin is now almost level 30. My decision had very little to do with good vs. evil, although Freeport gets really old after a while and finding SK spells/arts on the broker can be frustrating on Crushbone. My decision was based mainly on soloability since I'm a very casual gamer. My paladin was just far more soloable in his mid-20s with his heals and lay hands. And I honestly don't see that changing. At 26, SKs get a pet for a nice DPS boost, however, paladins get oath strike at 28. Oath strike gives a paladin comparable DPS to an SK + pet (according to the parses I've seen). SKs also aren't nearly as durable. SK wards and lifetaps are way underpowered, but paladins have two very effective heals to use tough situations. For example, I could kill green heroic casters with my paladin simply by outlasting them with heals until they ran out of power. My SK would have folded before the mob was at 50% power. I hope this changes with the combat revamp because I really want to play my SK again.

05-05-2005, 04:08 AM	#9
ins4nity11 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 48	Well, Im not really looking for a solo class, seeing as how I already have a bruiser, and can solo any time, I want the one that is best for groups, and seeing as how the pally's strong point seems to be heals, and while in a group, you will most likely have a healer to do that for you, I am somewhat leaning towards pally. Also, I am guessing that the majority of you are sks', hate qeynos, and pallys', so it may be a little bias lol.

05-05-2005, 05:13 AM	#10
Diern General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	Seriously, wait until the Combat changes come in till you make a desicion. That said doesnt look promising for shadowknights, we look to be hit with the same curse that happened in eq1. A DPS tank has NO role in the end game, and people will always take a paladin or guardian over a DPS tank, because they dont get a tank to inflict damage. They get assasins, Warlocks to do that.

05-06-2005, 02:34 AM	#12
Braell Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 44	We pretty much have the same spells as Paladins, theirs haveing a slightly more Defensive twist than ours. Painbringer and upgrades for us has a aoe dot, the equiv f

05-06-2005, 02:56 AM	#14
Braell Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 44	We pretty much have the same spells as Paladins, theirs haveing a slightly more Defensive twist than ours. Painbringer and upgrades for us has a aoe dot, the equiv for paladins has a single target dot as far as i know, again as far as i believe the other paladin aoes have an stun component added. Skills for us that have small lifetap type procs, for paladin have hate built in. (not sure if thats instant hate or a proced hate.) Instead of a pet they have a heal that consumes an essence, heals can add a bit to the threat during a fight, pets do not really - so in some ways they get some extra agro generating means than us, But mainly you need to ask yourself if you would rather have a heal or a pet etc. Lay hands vs harmtouch etc. Though both class share the problem that we suffer from agro loss when forced to slow down the pace of combat arts/spells due to power useage - while others can chip in with attacks and keep agro easier - i would probably say Paladins have a slightly easier time mainly because of healing agro, though beware of Paladins at low 20's useing a 1-handed weapon and shield, as often the agro is wavering on a thin line at best due to cripplingly poor damage being delt. Other than that we have spells/combat arts that fill the same role just in a different way, ours on disease/slashing aoe dots, lifetaps and pets - theirs on divine/slashing single target dots, stuns and heals. And as a side note - i expect when combat changes come live - though i imagine all that will happen is we get some slight alterations in debuffs added to attacks, hopefully better lifetap options and some better dots, tweaked spells etc, and i imagine the paladin will probably get something added to stuns, alteration to buffs, though anything is possible. Braellar

05-06-2005, 03:13 AM	#15
Braell Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 44	Ohh and one small note i just remembered, Divine damage seems easier to land when you first start becomeing a paladin vs a lot of ours at those levels, while the spells/combat arts examined show comparable damage i always found equal paladins to be able to just hit that slight bit higher on spells than me due to resists - this is only really seen if you either compare closely, at the end of a fight it will barely add seconds to the difference. There are a lot of tiny things that mainly show up when you play multiple fighters around the same level - i know for me with my Shadowknight and Berserker, it wasnt until level 29 that my Shadowknight started to close the gap - and one thing i would recomend anyone trying to decide to keep playing a paladin or shadowknight, upgrade the pet spell to as high as you get, some skills you can get by with at (apprentise 1) and live, the pet isnt one of them imho - all mine ever done when i first got it was miss anything i would hunt, and in groups peformed even worse - even if you can get an App IV it's definatly worth doing it, that and i never saw an adept for the first pet drop compared to the rest of the skills which i have seen most drop except a couple. Braellar

05-28-2005, 06:11 AM	#16
tawek Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 144	This comparison between SKs and Pallys is very interesting. It sounds like you guys think you have similar power to pallys, and some think you are better. But you feel underpowered compared to Berzerkers and Guardians. I'm only a level 35 pally, but I think most pallys are reasonably content with how we compare to other classes. Your comments make me wonder if my impressions are wrong. Are pally's as underpowered as SKs? Or maybe SKs aren't underpowered, after all? Or maybe SKs are actually inferior to pallys? But probably it's less about being underpowered, and more usefulness in a raid situation, and that the utility skills you guys have just don't add much to a raid. I don't know enough about SK's, so please add/correct what I've missed out in the following. As far as I can see, the major extras you have over pallys are: Feign death - seems to me a great way to rescue a situation where a group member has grabbed aggro, but perhaps it doesn't work so well in practice. Only works against level 45 mobs or lower. Of course also very useful if group is relying on you to rez the cleric from a wipe. Probably not much use in a raid. Evac at 44. Less use in a raid, where there'll be evacers to spare. Your pet is great for soloing, but limited use in a raid. You get extra attacks, AoE, and debuffs, which make you a better dps; and, of course, Harm Touch. In contrast, the pallys have: Aggro transfer skills, especially the Redemption skill. This transfers a significant fraction of the targets agro. An incredibly useful skill in a raid. If cast on the main healer or the biggest dps, it can save deaths. Rez at 44. (Little use in a raid, where there will be priests to spare) Healing every 7 seconds. Which will save the healer a little mana and aggro, may be useful as a secondary healer, such as when someone other than the MT uses a manastone. If the healer(s) can't keep up with the damage on the MT, that extra healing may make all the difference, expecially if combined with a lay-on-hands. Our dps isn't bad, but I understand not as good as yours, which is as it should be. We can both offer three buffs to the main tank in a raid: donating some of our mitigation, buffing their avoidance, and buffing their attributes. But maybe people don't know SKs can do that, because it's so against your image. The donating of mitigation is competely contrary to the SK evil ethos: maybe you guys are reluctant to use this ability for roleplay reasons, and your image in a raid suffers as a result. It seems to me the classes may be reasonably balanced. Though I just haven't grouped with enough SKs to know in practice. Your extra dps will help you solo, but with more downtime waiting for health recovery. You are probably better in a small group with a healer: you take down the mobs faster, and with a healer have little downtime. But frankly, I'm very happy with my ability to solo and duo, and find my healing ability incredibly useful, even when partnered with a priest. In a full group, with more dps, our aggro transfer skills start to shine, and even more so in a raid. Having read a few threads comparing the two classes, it seems to me where you have problems is in a raid. We both have some nice utility skills, but yours are less useful in a fully rounded group/raid. And where pally's really score is Redemption. Although balanced elsewhere, you don't have any unique selling point for a raid. In my opinion, SoE should add one. Perhaps an option to reduce the timer on Rescue to 10 minutes, so where Pally's can only use Rescue in an extreme emergency, when playing secondary tank, SK's use it to pull a mob off the healer knowing they'll have it back before long. Or maybe an enhnancement to your Feign Death to make it more reliable/useful in that situation. But, your ideas will be better, you know your class. Or maybe a powerful taunt on a slow timer. There's no question I will still prefer the pally. I am more defensive by nature, and enjoy boosting my group, more than hurting the enemy. I suspect you guys, as players, enjoy being damage dealers/debuffers more than being able to heal. If your enhancements aren't too great, but just make your class more raid friendly, I wouldn't mind. And as long as they keep us different: after all neither of us would want our classes to converge. I want to remain as unlike those vicious, arrogant, backstabbing SKs as possible.

05-29-2005, 11:51 PM	#17
VonStein Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 84	Can only speak about this into the mid 20's..... currently 24 Pally and 26 SK.... but... My Pally can solo much easier than my SK.... Pally can do Blue ^^... SK can only do Green ^^.... Pally has 2 swings which heal for 45 and 21 respectivly (with 2 hand sword )... SK only heals for 21 or so... SK... Wards are counterproductive against hard hitting critters as they do not mitigate damage when they drop, so you may actually take MORE damage... and Lifetap seldom if ever procs... Pally... currently heals for more than my SK's ward... and thats mitigated damage to boot... But SK gets a cool black horse... Pally gets a dandified white horse.... LOL....

05-30-2005, 10:18 AM	#18
Zoradan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 186	tawek21 You have a few points correct but let me corect/add some if I may: All points from a 50 raid point of view: Feign death - seems to me a great way to rescue a situation where a group member has grabbed aggro, but perhaps it doesn't work so well in practice. Only works against level 45 mobs or lower. Of course also very useful if group is relying on you to rez the cleric from a wipe. Probably not much use in a raid. Evac at 44. Less use in a raid, where there'll be evacers to spare. Your pet is great for soloing, but limited use in a raid. You get extra attacks, AoE, and debuffs, which make you a better dps; and, of course, Harm Touch. 1) FD: Usless after aboguth 35, not 45. You can not save a cleric or any one elce, it's not EQ fd, it crap eqwatereddown2 FD. We drop for 10 sec, then get up, no if no and or but, 90% of the time the mobs are still agro and your dead. It's a fun spell to cast in rping thats abught it. 2) You don't evac from raids. You evac from the instance to the zone line so ya dont have to walk. 3) Very usfule for solo or hard mobs in 2-3 man groups. It's actualy very usfule on hard raids when the dps may be down, 8 maning a 4x mob, but the stacking issue with only one pet hampers multipule sk's. AND it's a flipping chicken, gime an undead anything! 4) Truth is, haist and gear realy deturmins dps between a sk and pally. Depending who I'm with and who our Pally is with one will out dps the other. Aoe helps me in very short fights but longer fights I can burn my power so fast even with crack and manastone that my dps spikes then drops off. I can manage 230+ on some fights, so can our Pally, we both can out dps our scounts depending on the mobs slash/peirce resistances due to blunt 2 handers. HT is a junk spell, 1k ever 15 min that dosent get rez at best is not dps, it's a joke. Pallys: Aggro transfer skills, especially the Redemption skill. This transfers a significant fraction of the targets agro. An incredibly useful skill in a raid. If cast on the main healer or the biggest dps, it can save deaths. Rez at 44. (Little use in a raid, where there will be priests to spare) Healing every 7 seconds. Which will save the healer a little mana and aggro, may be useful as a secondary healer, such as when someone other than the MT uses a manastone. If the healer(s) can't keep up with the damage on the MT, that extra healing may make all the difference, expecially if combined with a lay-on-hands. Our dps isn't bad, but I understand not as good as yours, which is as it should be. 1) Cool, didn't know that. 2) Pally Rez is so importaint on raids it's not even funny. a) 40% (or is it 60?) hp/power = uber, also it's a 15 sec recast, if your combat rezing pally = god. It's probly the single BEST thing a pally brings to a raid. 3) Pally while not a great healer can be used as a healer for a dps/utility group when short on healers. 4) See above. I agree with you 100% on the rest of your topic, good to see a snoby noise in the air do-gooder who can think __________________

05-30-2005, 12:42 PM	#19
Diern General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	There is an old saying from EQL regarding the choice between Paladin or shadowknight. If you have to ask, roll a Paladin!

05-30-2005, 05:05 PM	#20
Hicar Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 47	I am a level 50 sk, in both a raiding guild and in a fixed group. I didn't put much time in comparing myself with paladins, but i can still put forward what i consider are our strong points. First of all, sk at lvl 50 is very very different from sk at say lvl 25. At lvl 50, when no reactive heals are used (for instance when cleaning trash lvl 49 ^^ mobs in PF on our way to drayek) i can steal agro to a guardian who is trying. I can hold agro very well in my group. However, yesterday i happened to mentor down to lvl 25 along with my warden buddy. In no way i could hold agro to him (adept 3 decrey of decay, adept 3 unyieldin advance, adept 1 inflame). There is really a change in power in later levels. Mentoring down to 35 - makes me sick with my class, when i am very very happy with it at lvl 50. For potency, i was off tank in the froglok raid in CT yesterday in encounters when there were more than 1 ^^^. Needed collective work to get agro first hand because the reactive heals usually put on main tank who is puller too gives him a very big boost in agro, but once i got it, i didn't loose it, and i was staying alive against lvl 54 ^^^ (or was it 55). More to the point : Our strong point i think is 2 overlooked spells : cursed caress and syphon strength. When soloing, some mobs that are hitting me when i am 1H + shield and debuffs down aren't hitting me when i wield 2h and debuffs are up. On raids, my warden friend can tell when my debuffs are up or down, and we synchronize to make sure my debuffs are up when he has to refresh his defense buff (30 s recast). Second strong point at lvl 50 is despoiling mist, our ac debuff. Can't remember the numbers (am at work atm), but it's something like a 1400 mitigation debuff at adept 3. My assassin friend, with adept 3 assassination (lvl 50 PA) goes from 2000 - 3000 w/o debuff to 4000 - 5000 + with debuff (pulling number a little out of my hat, but that's really the idea. i could check on eq2players for his biggest hit, but i am pretty sure he made 5000 + several times after debuff, which caused to die once or twice on raids when mob got angry =)). Granted keeping debuffs up hits a lot of mana. When i focus on them as only sk on raid, i just auto attack, a few other mana efficient DD, but not much, and i don't forget to putmy adept 3 pet on the mob (he can hit over 300 with despoiling mist)). If another sk is here, we can split the debuff and use more other skills. Life tap procs aren't made for usual single target raid mob, as they don't hit often and for big number. Tank is full life, and suddenly he is at 60 pct. Priest heals make the difference. It's not the 100 hp heal from your life tap proc buff that will make a difference even if it procs when tank isn't full life. It can make a difference along with a good resist gear when it comes to staying in melee range of a pbae mob. For instance, i could stay hitting the mob in Menagerie epic instance when most of others had to back up from time to time until getting a heal. Btw, to raise proc rates, use slow weapon. Doesn't change auto attack, but changes a lot when using combat arts. But they are very nice in groups when your life goes down more steadily and priests can take their time to heal you to be sure not to overheal. It adds nice dps when in melee groups, and of course, they help a lot with agro. The rest is just normal tank skills i think. Those last points (debuffs and pet especially) are our particularity, and i feel they really aren't to be overlooked. Only think i really would like to change is the epic limitation on our shield taunt line, when paladin equivalent had no restriction last time i looked to the master I version of it. Sucks to have to resort to our tier 2 spell on that line when tanking epic. Jaaghica, Runnyeye PS : and of course, graven embrace, to punish a group mate that had a direspectfull word to you. Message Edited by Hicarse on 05-30-2005 06:09 AM __________________ Jaaghica - Redemption- Runnyeye

05-30-2005, 05:05 PM	#21
Hicar Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 47	grrr Message Edited by Hicarse on 05-30-200506:05 AM Message Edited by Hicarse on 05-30-2005 06:06 AM __________________ Jaaghica - Redemption- Runnyeye

05-31-2005, 08:28 AM	#22
tawek Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 144	Thanks for the replies, guys. Zoradan, I've heard others say Graven Embrace is useless, but not all. Have you read the following thread? http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=9093 ("Re: Graven Embrace is very mislabeled at level 50.") Some SKs in that thread claim Graven Embrace can be useful. They also say that the 45 level limit in the spell description is wrong. That can work on level 54 mobs. With its short duration, it won't work the same as the EQ version. But if it has a reasonable chance to take against the mobs you are fighting, I can think of several situations where it would be useful: If someone is about to die. If they are graven embraced, you have 10 seconds to do something about it. You can use rescue, taunts, stun, or maybe your enchanter can mez in that time. Maybe your healer can heal them (can you heal someone feigning?). Your scout (or you, lol) might have time to do an Evac. I'm guessing you've found, after lev 35, mobs see through it too often. I'm curious if there are reasons the others have found differently. In my opinion, if it works, or can be fixed, it's a great ability to give an SK, both in usefulness, and fitting your nasty ethos. It's linked to death, deceptive, and the SK is arrogantly compelling another to play dead ... my only worry is it could be used to grief a fellow group member. If it could be used effectively on raids, wouldn't it be a help in your bid for a slot? I'm interested in your, and other peoples, comments about how good high-end SK and Paladin dps gets. My guess is if you are right, but I'll never experience it, because the high-end paladin dps will be nerfed long before I get there. But on the boards you read so many contradictory statements about relative dps for different classes. As VonSteinan's post shows us, although end-game power is important, but we mustn't forget character power in the mid-game. If a character is too weak for 80% of its life, then gets balanced right at the end, that isn't proper class balance. As you were levelling, how did you find SK dps versus the other tank classes? It seems to me, as you have less defensive abilities than a guardian, paladin or berzerker, you should have better debuf/dps skills than any of them, or good utility skills to make up for it. Regarding the Redemption skill, I've only started thinking about using it. When I don't have agro problems, it uses 2 concentration slots, which I'm loath to give up. But I used it on a Torig raid recently, and I don't think the warlock in my group got agro once. I was tempted to use it on the main healer as well, then realised I'd probably end up stealing agro, and as I wasn't main tank, that wouldn't be very popular ... and I'd probably be very dead. Diernes, lol. I know what you mean. Why anyone would want to suck up to a egotistical manaic like the Pompous One, is beyond me. Anyone who calls themselves Overlord must be compensating for some serious self-image problems. (ooc: my highest on EQ1 was an SK) Hicarse, Thanks for your post. Most posts in this forum seem to just complain, and have the unfortunate effect of trashing their own classes reputation for being worth grouping with. I hadn't realised your debuffs were so important, good to hear. And just nice to hear someone who is positive about their class. I'm interested by what you say about a slower weapon being better for procs. I'd always assumed that proc's would have an equal chance of firing every time you hit, and so a faster weapon would be better. Is the opposite the case?

05-31-2005, 10:07 AM	#23
Hicar Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 47	When auto attacking, your chance of proc is adjusted to delay. Which means over an hour, you'll have the same amount of procs. But when you are doing a combat art, you also have a chance to proc, with the delay adjusted chance. But your combat art recast isn't adjusted. Which means you are doing as much combat arts, and get more procs. and procs have same value. __________________ Jaaghica - Redemption- Runnyeye

05-31-2005, 11:22 AM	#24
Diern General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	lol. I know what you mean. Why anyone would want to suck up to a egotistical manaic like the Pompous One, is beyond me. Anyone who calls themselves Overlord must be compensating for some serious self-image problems. (ooc: my highest on EQ1 was an SK) I am not sure that you do. hehe. Its more along the lines of If you have to ask why, you dont have the mindset to play an evil knight and should roll a pansy palladin one. Message Edited by Diernes on 05-31-2005 12:23 AM

06-01-2005, 06:55 AM	#25
Zoradan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 186	tawek21 I saw that post some time ago, and wan't willing to spend the $ on a palladnium cluster to upgrade FD and bother testing it in a raid zone. As you said IF soe ever flushed it out then it might be a great spell, honestly right now it's just a fun spell. The truth is the last 4 times I have used it was twice to beat my friend in a race to the zone line (FD gives ya a great head start), once to FD an Assasin in a exp group (while hanging with friends) who bet me 5 gold he could get the kill shot on a named, and the last one was to FD our Chanter so we could molest her while she was on the ground. Usfule hu? did make me 5 gold tho.... As for DPS, I dont think you Pallys are in for a nerf, from the way things our sounding you may get a defencive bost but thats abought it, I think SK's will probly end up sitting the same as we are now, maby some power/dps changes to some spells to help. I honestly think thats all that will put us over Pallys as "dps" tanks (wich is a silly way of putting it were all tanks). Ya know I never once felt like a bad tank ALL thru exping. In the early 30's it was a little hard to hold agro, but that was other classes peaking at some things befor our round of taunts and spells kicked. Other than that I have tanked Giants in Sol eye in a 3 man group at lvl 44, run up and down RE at lvl 34 as one of the requested tanks cause I knew the Miners pull and got it right 90% of the time. My morning exp grind group was always the same crew we all meshed together. So I never felt under powered as a lvling SK. Let us know more how the redemption thing works, might be usfule on an over agro scout class to. Have fun man, catch ya in game. __________________

06-01-2005, 07:59 PM	#26
Bron Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 61	Hicarse wrote: More to the point : Our strong point i think is 2 overlooked spells : cursed caress and syphon strength. When soloing, some mobs that are hitting me when i am 1H + shield and debuffs down aren't hitting me when i wield 2h and debuffs are up. On raids, my warden friend can tell when my debuffs are up or down, and we synchronize to make sure my debuffs are up when he has to refresh his defense buff (30 s recast). Though I do like cursed caress, the 6 point debuff pales in comparison to what some other classes get, and I'm not just talking casters, many melee can debuff this as well and do it by more than we can. It also seems to be somewhat hard to land on raid mobs consistently (if you can land it at all i.e. Vaz'Gok Pkzkr, etc). Siphon Strength, even at adept3, drops the target's STR by a measly 15 points. I don't have any parses to prove that this is very ineffective, but I know in my own personal experience, I've noticed little if any difference with this spell on or off.Definitely abilities SKs should keep in mind, but I certainly wouldn't call them our "strengths". I still use them on raids though, because hey, every little bit counts. __________________ Skrull Level 50 Shadowknight Level 50 Armorer Vagabonds - Unrest

06-02-2005, 06:40 AM	#27
YummiOger Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: School of Hard Knocks Posts: 437	In response to OP ... As it Stands right now.. SKs and Pallies both run close on DPS, with SKs comming out on top by a little. BUT the real diff is the Tanking Ability, As it stands with the Ward bug, SKs will never be able to out tank a pally with both comperabily eqipt. The pally self heals and the Aggro-Transfering spell they get (fogot name), make them FAR better at tanking than SKs. Yummy Izbad 50SK 50Armorer Imperium __________________ Smashin' noobs sense 2004, Yaahh Yuuhh!!