Ruse vs. Harm Touch

[RavCossa]

So my buddy's brigand fell down in combat the other day and i see that he did a surprise attack dealing 501 points of damageThe Brigands Ruse does more damage than my HT, and Tuse only has a 30 sec refresh rateEven tho, Ruse puts the Brigand out of combat for 10secs while keeping there buffs. it still seems overpowered compared to a Skill like HT that has a really long refresh rate, i think it's 2hours but not sure.I just wanted to say that that was broke

[Adonae_Perpet]

SK != DPS class.We're not supposed to do the same amount of damage.

[Bannon]

1. He has to be behind or beside the mob.  DISADVANTAGE

 

2.  If he were to tank on the same mob, he would probably die.

 

 

Your job is to keep him alive...not to do more damage than he does....his job is to put in the heavy hits that drop the mob.

 

 

Everyone has a defined role...

[DrAtla]

We are not a DPS class, but I think you miss the mans point. Harm Touch was never a dps ability. It was a save your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] in a sticky situation ability. Now when your Malefic Touch at lvl 40 does enough damage to drop a group mob by 1/5 of a bubble of life, I would hardly say it will save anyone's [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. I think the Harm Touch line is properly powered for PvP as you wouldnt want it to kill a PC in one hit, but the fact is that we don't have PvP and HT is just about useless against group mobs. With a 30 minute recast time it will never be a DPS ability, but it should definitely do more damage than a 30 second recast DPS ability. This is just common sense. It did so in EQ, why not in EQ2? It is really to the point where in a bad situation I wouldn't really even think to use the HT line of spells. When other people can hit for as much every 30 seconds, you don't really think of it as an uber save your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] in a bad situation spell.Oh, and against groups of mobs we can out DPS the melee DPS classes with our AEs. A while back in zek I was out DPSing a Swash against groups of 6 or so orcs. Also as we lvl up (40+) we are moving more into the dps realm with more damage abilities that are on their own reuse timers.

Message Edited by DrAtlasX on 01-12-2005 04:19 PM

[strath]

Well it kinda baffles me actually, in the 500 years since eq one , aperently the shadowknights got together and decided that they were going to boycott certain abilities, like.....Fiegn death(useless oviously) invise ( who needs it), useful Harm Touch( cuz it really bites to have an ultra powerful spell that just once might make the fight a win stead of a loss), see invise( what you cant see, cant hurt you , duh!), evitate( always hated bouncing up and down for an hour or more) . any others let me know im making a list :smileyvery-happy:

[vwlsskng]

I played a Shadow Knight four four years. I had maxed out my HT abilities through AA and Focus items. Without Bard song, I could hit a mob for between 8-9k damage. At level 60 (before the AA-augmentations were available), the best you could do with Unholy Aura disc was around 1,500, give or take.

 

In EQ2, at level 26, I can use Harm Touch (Apprentice IV) and get, roughly, 600 damage. The reuse timer is, I believe, 30 minutes. At level 26, in the original EQ, your HT would land for 300, or so, damage.

 

How is Harm Touch broken? It's better now, then it was then, at this stage in the game. Give it time. It was never intended to be Death Touch, like so many of you obviously want.

[Trixst]

Agree with vklssknght

 

It's a "harm" touch.. it "harms" the mob and doesn't destroy it.

 

Granted, at times I wish it did a bit more damage but I guess that's where the lvl 30 upgrade and the adept / master upgrades come into play.  Still, they've done the right thing by not making it an instant kill ability as that would be too overpowering.  In the end, their testing probably involves a group of shadowknights going around and making sure that they can't kill a named mob just from all using their ability.  If it prevents that, they've done their job with the ability.

 

[Justicar333]

---

I played a Shadow Knight four four years. I had maxed out my HT abilities through AA and Focus items. Without Bard song, I could hit a mob for between 8-9k damage. At level 60 (before the AA-augmentations were available), the best you could do with Unholy Aura disc was around 1,500, give or take.

 

In EQ2, at level 26, I can use Harm Touch (Apprentice IV) and get, roughly, 600 damage. The reuse timer is, I believe, 30 minutes. At level 26, in the original EQ, your HT would land for 300, or so, damage.

 

How is Harm Touch broken? It's better now, then it was then, at this stage in the game. Give it time. It was never intended to be Death Touch, like so many of you obviously want.

---

I played in EQ1 as a Sk, and I now play in EQ2 as an SK as well.  In response to how's it broken, in EQ1 it saved my bacon quite a bit as a solo player.  However in EQ2, it's not very useful as the mobs are "mobs" with lots creatures, and they seem to have vastly more hps now.  Harm Touch is supposed to be our big gun, but now it's not that effective compared to the abilities nearly every other class has when we have a 30 min timer to go with it.  I wouldn't mind as bad if we didn't have this weird FD thing, which is usable pretty much only for party combat.  Give us a break SOE, quit turning this into evergroup. 

[strath]

"In EQ2, at level 26, I can use Harm Touch (Apprentice IV) and get, roughly, 600 damage. The reuse timer is, I believe, 30 minutes. At level 26, in the original EQ, your HT would land for 300, or so, damage.

 

How is Harm Touch broken? It's better now, then it was then, at this stage in the game. Give it time. It was never intended to be Death Touch, like so many of you obviously want."

 

 

 

In eq 1 , lvl 20-30 mobs didnt hit you for 400-600 a shot, lvl 50 mobs in eq one didnt hit that hard, this isnt eq 1.

[Xiene]

I dont see there is any problem with Harmtouch is.  This game is EQ2 not EQL.  Keep that in mind and quit comparing the 2 games.

 

So since EQ2 mobs are much stronger than that of EQL... so what, this isn't EQL.  That doesn't give any reason for our Harmtouch should be scale up and become much powerful than the original or just be as useful as the original.  After all this is not the same game.

 

But can we rely on our harmtouch?  Yes I do think so.  In a tight battle which can occur quite frequently, at that moment you just might need a little damage boost well HT comes in and maybe it will save the day.

 

Can we always rely on HT? Well no, nearly half of the time my HT gets resist when it comes to fighting tough monsters.

[Apophis]

Fellow Shadowknights,

 

I feel I must comment on the controversy regarding ruse vs. harmtouch. Maybe our Harmtouch is lower than ruse, why does it matter ? Do brigands have taunt ? Can they use 2 handed swords ? Do they have a horse at level 20 ? Can they wear vanguard armor ?

 

OK ok, I being silly, of course they dont. Lets look at the simple facts, Brigands are a dps class meaning they do damage plain and simple. Every 30 seconds they can use ruse and do high damage. Lets look at that closely, every 30 seconds they have an ability that may push them over the taunt envelope and cause the target to turn on them thus breaking the ideal group mechanics. Any brigands out there who really want to do that ? I would say no. The idea here is to drop the mob, get the treasure / exp and move to the next mob. My second point and this is a big one, they cannot use ruse while soloing period, they have to be behind / flanking the mob.  How many brigands are going to just ruse the mob during the fight every 30 seconds until the mob is dead ? Few if any. And finally how many fights actually last longer than 1 - 2 min anyway.

 

 

Sk's are a tank class, meaning that we tank. Now to the basics our job is to stand there with 6 mobs beating on us so that these Brigands CAN stand there, lie down, and the poke the mob in the back for high damage. Without us their damage is reduced dramatically because many of their abilities rely on being behind / flanking the intended target including ruse. Our harmtouch is usable while soloing. ( saved my [Removed for Content] ( take that filter bot !!! ) many times ). Harm touch is intended for and should be used as a no power direct damage spell with a 30 minute timer. Healer(s) are running low on power, the named_mob_01 is nearly dead and your health is low and somehow there isnt a Ruse using player in the group ( it can happen ). click, insta dmg ( remember that 10 second ruse, gotta fall down, wait, then poke thing ) can be a life saver. Now hopefully for the next 30 minutes the tank ( thats you by the way ) can keep the group from being in the same situation.

 

 

The fact is Harmtouch is a situational spell / ability that should be used as such ..... same as graven embrace ( monks can drop indefinately ) offering of armament and the like ( forget the class but they have a 30 sec refresh 1k ac boost ) .... and other abilites. I say learn what Harmtouch can do for you and when, then use it accordingly. If that doesnt work for you, heres a little tidbit of fun for you ..... next time that ruse goes off and you feel like you need a bigger harmtouch take a look at who the mob is on and wonder ( aloud if you like ) how long the brigand could stand there with the mob with no healer : ).

 

We all have abilities that the " other " classes have that we might think is overpowered or we may wish we had .... if you take a look at all the abilities and think i wish i had that, thats unfair, why isnt this, etc. perhaps you may want to turn in your Harmtouch for Ruse and be a Brigand. I for one will not. I am a Shadowknight, I ride an Unholy Steed ( yeah i know its not a skeletal horse yet : P ), and i cause pain and suffering where i go. Mobs will in time learn to fear me as the orcs in the commonlands already do. I destroy pillage plunder and decimate any and all im my path and care not for the weak, timid, or kind. Lucan will prevail !!!

 

Apophis the Destroyer

 

 

 

Server: Kithicor

Trade:Weaponsmith

Guild: Malus Imperii

[DrAtla]

---

Trixster wrote:

Agree with vklssknght

It's a "harm" touch.. it "harms" the mob and doesn't destroy it.

Granted, at times I wish it did a bit more damage but I guess that's where the lvl 30 upgrade and the adept / master upgrades come into play. Still, they've done the right thing by not making it an instant kill ability as that would be too overpowering. In the end, their testing probably involves a group of shadowknights going around and making sure that they can't kill a named mob just from all using their ability. If it prevents that, they've done their job with the ability.

---

I think you missed an important point in this thread. Brigands get an instant kill attack every 1 min. It's something called Ruse. A lvl 37 Brigand can hit, once a minute, for 1500-3200 dmg. It is absolutely amazing and can drop a mob 5 lvls higher than the Brigand in 1 hit. At 40 my Malefic Touch (I can't find an adept for it, so I bought app 2) hits for around 800 with a reuse timer of 30 min. So... 1500-3200 dmg every 1 minute, 800 dmg every 30 min... Of course it shouldn't drop an uber named in one hit. No one asked for it to do that. All I have to say is that it should do more damage than any 1 min reuse spell just like in EQ. In other words, it should do more than 3200 dmg.I honestly think that any of you who think the Harm Touch line is fine must be pretty low level, because the absolute uselessness of it really shines as you level up. As I said before, Harm Touch is supposed to be a "save your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] in a pinch once every 30 minutes" spell just like evac. Instead we get brigands with a save your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] in a pinch once ever minute ability, and we don't get crap. Wake up people, take a look at your HT, realize how terrible it is, and start trying to get it changed!

Message Edited by DrAtlasX on 01-16-2005 07:28 AM

[Greggthegrmreapr]

I have the app3 version at the moment, and find it the best way to get aggro from that caster that is over nuking or the priest who keeps healing themselves after the mob decides to go play with them

[Fult]

The first time I used HT it did a whopping 213pts damage. I have pretty much forgot it exists and usually never use it, since the few time I do use it, it seems like it doesn't do enough damage to a mob to even lower it 1 pixel of health. I always though, in EQL, that HT and LoH was related to the PCs hitpoints, or very close to it. I hope it gets better, but if it doesn't I just adapt the way I play.

[Azaz]

The only problem I have with Harm Touch is that it can be resisted, which really sucks as it takes 30 minutes for you to be able to use is again.

[Hump]

Wow you guys are mistaken here. I have a 24 Brigand and Ruse is definately not overpowered. Most of us use App 1 skill lvl and it start out as a "Frontal Attack" in the  high 200's dmage... but.... you lay flat on your back for 10 seconds? Not a great skill really when most of my other attacks are doing at least 150 damage which I could have done 2 times instead... so it works out. Your re-use timer does seem long though so hopefully they will shorten it, but if you guys get aggro no biggie you can tank it, but if we get aggro then there's one more person to revive when the fight is over. Last thing too though, Ruse hits as "Other" damage and does not count as our own damage. Its true this skill can hit for some serious #'s when you get in the 30's but so do assasins..... I think Ruse just balances out the Scout sub-classes and makes it fair. Without Ruse Brigands would fall behind in dps..... so please don't flame it too bad... besides we are a DPS class.... SK's  come from a Fighter origin... you can do both very well... I think the two classes are pretty well balanced IMO. I am just cruising through the boards trying to decide which way to go with my Fighter and noticed this. I hope the dev's leave well enough alone in the Scout classes and spend more time in the Mage class.. they have some pretty serious issues there. Just my 2cp.....

[Timepan]

I aggree with the posts that say we (Sk's) are not a DPS class. But we dont necessarily have the absolute best in taunts for holding aggro either. I though SK's were tanks with a bit more dmg. Using dmg to hold aggro and such.

 

 

At first HT it was awsome. NOW, its either always resisited OR someone else is hitting the mob for the same or better dmg every min. This makes HT pretty much usless. Whats one more 400-600dmg in 30mins?

 

Paladins get an ability like ours (Lay on Hands) wich has a 30mins reuse, ueses no power. Only things is this ability replenishes health big time. This helps a pally get out of a tight "OH CRAP WERE ALL GONNA DIE) situation.

 

One thing that maybe needs to be done is:

 

1. make HT less, WAY less resisted or non resisted

 

2. make HT a percentage dmg of the mobs total health.

-

[Timepan]

I aggree with the posts that say we (Sk's) are not a DPS class. But we dont necessarily have the absolute best in taunts for holding aggro either. I though SK's were tanks with a bit more dmg. Using dmg to hold aggro and such.

 

At first HT it was awsome. NOW, its either always resisited OR someone else is hitting the mob for the same or better dmg every min. This makes HT pretty much usless. Whats one more 400-600dmg in 30mins?

 

Paladins get an ability like ours (Lay on Hands) wich has a 30mins reuse, ueses no power. Only things is this ability replenishes a pallys health big time. This helps a pally get out of a tight "OH CRAP WERE ALL GONNA DIE) situation.

 

One thing that maybe needs to be done is:

 

1. make HT less, WAY less resisted or non resisted

 

2. make HT a percentage dmg of the mobs total health.  <<--- this will make it so that HT can do tons of dmg if need be to one mob when a situation gets bad AND not over power a SK, like using HT on a lower level mob wont do the dmg that scout/mage can do.

 

[vwlsskng]

---

strathas wrote:

 

In eq 1 , lvl 20-30 mobs didnt hit you for 400-600 a shot, lvl 50 mobs in eq one didnt hit that hard, this isnt eq 1.

---

Well, yeah. But it's still in proportion to how it worked then. The mobs then didn't hit as hard, neither did Harm Touch. The mobs hit harder now, so does Harm Touch (level to level).

[Bannon]

In perspective....no other tanks get an attack nearly as good as this one.

 

While watching a scout tear butt through mobs last night I asked my guild what they thought about it being higher....they laughed at me....and they were right to..

 

We are not DPS...we are tanks...and I know alot of tanks who would beg for an attack even half what our HT is.

[strath]

Right , were tanks, tanks that cant use kite shields, tanks that cant use 75 % of the weapons out there, tanks that cant use bows. Im lvl 31 now, and i blast even a solo mob with my harm touch (appt 3) it doesnt even drop them 10 %, thats pretty lame if you ask me, but then again were the leaders in lame skills that dont do to much....rescue, lucan's pact, consume vitae, and now we get to add graven embrace to that as well.

[Tsimhno]

---

strathas wrote:

Right , were tanks, tanks that cant use kite shields, tanks that cant use 75 % of the weapons out there, tanks that cant use bows. Im lvl 31 now, and i blast even a solo mob with my harm touch (appt 3) it doesnt even drop them 10 %, thats pretty lame if you ask me, but then again were the leaders in lame skills that dont do to much....rescue, lucan's pact, consume vitae, and now we get to add graven embrace to that as well.

---

Can't use Kite Shields? I really hope you made a mistake and meant Tower...

[Bannon]

Not to mention our level 30 training option for a 15min HT.

 

Or the one we get in the mid 30's that does significant damage.

 

Or the fact that we can ward ourselves...get a horse...have spells for pulling.

 

 

 

Lets put this in perspective.

 

The ONLY thing I want that other tanks have...is their weapon selection...they can keep everything else.

 

Meanwhile all my other tank friends wished they had spells...if only for the flavor.

[strath]

Aye, i meant tower shileds, and aye, more weapon selecetion would make me happy too, i can live without a real harm touch, thats nto the point of this, the point of all this is that harm touch is weak , considering what it used to be, and when placed beside much faster resuse time abilities of other classes, i rarly use harm touch, just isnt worth it, its not gonna save that tight fight, its not gonna pull my bacon outa the fire, and its not gonna keep me on the highest magic hit chart for long.harm tickle was right, but ill keep the harm tickle if i can use an axe( almost ALL the 1hs weapons are axes) or a great spear , like a charging knight should be able to do.

[vwlsskng]

The lack of the tower shield skill really irks me . . .

 

Let's go fly a kite, up to the highest height and find Mary Poppins.

[Bulvyne]

I don't have a problem with Ruse doing equal or more damage than HT.  To me, comparing Ruse to HT is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

I don't really even have a problem with HT damage not even budging a mobs HP bar much.

 

What I DO have a problem with are the ~50% resist rates I've encountered with HT, and this is with green through red mobs (not just mobs higher than me).

 

For a 30 min timer, with extremely modest damage, this sucker should be 99.9% unresistable. Period.

 

Just my 2 coppers,

 

Message Edited by Bulvyne on 01-21-2005 07:31 AM