SK and taunt?

[Jaggid]

The only time I have ever had an issue with not holding agro is when others do NOT do their job correctly, which seems to be what happens until I have to get nasty in group chat.

[chaosang]

ok, sorry boys to tell you that, but why you have any problems keeping aggro? im currebtly lvl19, at lvl 18 i grouped with 4casters and a healer, one of em a wizzy, we fought those lvl21 2 arrow mobs, and since those kill a poor lil crusader like me in 4 lucky hits, i expect evryone to nuke to full potential, and even 4 casters chain nuking and a healer chainhealing i have not even slight issues of keeping aggro with just shieldbash and inflame on a single mob. we also fought groups of mobs, and 4 casters assisting in such is just, well not effective, crap is shout is the only aoe taunt, *BEEB* it isnt! start of with shout, then do a call to arms followed by warding urself, and theres more ya can do in case its needed. im also playing a wizzy myself, and i once made an aggro race with an SK, my wizzy pulled, dotted 4x and started chain nuking, the SK started by the time i started my first nuke, and by the second he had aggro, we reapeted that with my wizzy stiffling inbeween and same outcome.

 

if you guys have problems keeping aggro, upgrade ur skills, appIII is far enuf and easy to come by, and use buffs, aoe DDs, and such, if you need to have more then one mob taunted, if someone still gets aggro of you, cast a ward on him followed by an inflame.

[WuphonsReach]

Wasn't there a zerk skill that SOE just toned down? Some special attack that was doing a huge chunk of damage? (Might've explained why you had trouble with a zerker in the group.)It's a good tip to ward yourself as the MA. It has a sizeable taunt factor all by itself.

[Anash]

I was grouped with a beserker the other day 2 levels below me and he was pulling aggro off my constantly, was a real pain indeed, if he was a higher level I would of just made him MT.

 

[Trixst]

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Tydde wrote:

As someone mentioned, is long as i have aggro im fine, but if i loose it - i will have a real hard time getting it back. Say i loose aggro with 3 out of four mobs in an encounter. I keep the one im hurting/inflaming but the others run off. So i target one of the other 3 casts inflame, which wont work and quene "Decree of Decay". The one i inflamed targets me again, but the other two are unaffected by my "DoD" and with a 30sec recharge the cleric or whoever got their aggro is probably toast or has accumulated loads more of aggro from defensive spells before i can use it again.

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Something I've noticed with taunts:

 

-If you use a single target taunt (Taunt / Inflame) it seems to only affect the mob you are targetting.  Other mobs within the "group" encounter are unaffected.

 

-If you use an AoE Taunt (Shout / whatever upgrade after) it seems to only affect mobs that belong to that "group" encounter.  In other words, if you are in a group encounter and then a single mob attacks the group, the following could happen:

1. If you target the single mob and use AoE Taunt: Only the single mob will be affected and none of the "group" mobs wil be affected.
2. If you target any of the "group" mobs and use AoE Taunt: All of the "group" mobs will be affected but the single added mob will be unaffected.

So, this basically means that controlling aggro currently requires a bit of creativity in how / when to use the various taunts.  When pulling groups of mobs, I usually use my ranged attack to pull, then use shout to taunt, and follow it with my best AoE attack.  Once that's been done, I just taunt the specific target and use shout / AoE attacks to keep the other mobs on me.  Seems to work so far.

[Trixst]

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Anash wrote:

I was grouped with a beserker the other day 2 levels below me and he was pulling aggro off my constantly, was a real pain indeed, if he was a higher level I would of just made him MT.

 

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Well, a berserker not acting as main tank usually ends up using a few extra offensive abilities (bloodlust / whatever) so that they do end up gaining a lot of aggro.  It just becomes a matter of finding the right combination of maximizing damage output while minimizing damage taken by anyone other than the main tank.  If anything, if your group is using HOs, try to be the one who always completes them.  If the 'zerker completes it, I believe he will gain a good portion of aggro.

[WuphonsReach]

Or the zerker/scout/whatever should simply wait until the mob is half dead before going all out. That's much more effective with healing mobs who will start to cast heals on themselves once they get below half damage. Helps to put them down before they can get multiple heals off.When duoing with a scout, my guideline is that they need to let me start/finish my first HO (which ends in a taunt). Once they see the HO complete, they can do whatever they want and will rarely pull the mob off of me.

[Jagerbo]

The description of "Assault" also indicates it increases aggro.  (Just be careful of wandering non-hostile Mobs)

 

 

I use Shout (Adept 1), Assault, Shield Bash, and Taunt/Inflame without any problems.

 

 

 

I think the problem with most tanks is they try to do damage to the mobs...that's not our purpose.

 

All I do is cast DoF and spam my taunt attacks, switching from Mob to Mob.

 

 

 

 

In my opinion the only job of a tank is to hold aggro.   DPS is for everyone else.  With that mindset I've never had much of a problem.  Just remember if you disagree that the only reason you lose aggro is because your other members are outdamaging/healing you.

 

 

And in the rare cases where I've lost aggro...Taunt, Shout, then Shield Bash and it's back to good.  Has not failed yet.

 

(I am only lvl 17, but I've earned almost all of it working as tank)

[Baluka76]

The issue I was speaking of is in regards to Beserkers in specific. It's not their damage output, it's one Buff proc in particular that INSTANTLY(I usually saw the Zerker jumping and glowing, kind of like our Faithful Blow or whatever was at one time(I don't even use it), and INSTANTLY the aggro is to the Zerker, and it's stuck, no matter how many Adept I Inflames and Shouts/Damage I inflict upon the mob. Doesn't matter if I've laid about 6 taunts on it previously either. Instant aggro. This has been confirmed over and over by Assassins and others who have noticed it too. I don't know if it was something SoE recently patched/fixed or not, as I haven't paired with a Zerker since then to find out.

 

As for damage infliction? We're not doing that shabby, by the by, I typically land 30-40's in melee hits constantly and with Adept upgraded spells and whatnot, (Righteous Anger for example, 60-90 DD(Adept I) and costs extremely little power and then translates into an HO for me). But as was stated, that's not our main goal...which is why we have the HP/AC(with updated gear and abilities) to surely hold our own easily and act as the tank. 90% of the time I'm the main tank, main puller. And that suits me just fine, and aggro control is easy to manage(without the Zerker thing - which I hope they ID'd and fixed). Just make sure to open with Inflame(for single target) or Cry/Shout for groups, get them close, and if one should happen to break off and start to whale on the Shammy/Mage/whatever, break off quickly, toss an Inflame, and get back to business. Not that difficult. Our spells compensate for A LOT.

 

Baluka, 27th Kerran SK, Neriak.

 

 

 

[saw2814]

I sure would not complain if the recast timer on Shout was lowered a little bit.  When I have a group of mobs I want to stay on me it seems like shout takes a week to refresh.  

[Soulspa]

A golden rule I use when in a group is I tell everyone to stay close to me especially if they get aggro, so I can use my shout to get aggro back, assualt or AoE call to arms to get aggro back.  If you are outside my vision range, you are outside my helping range. 

 

This works great and I have no problems getting aggro back.  I prefer to be with the group as the main tank and let someone else pull, that way I can target the lead and plan the shout AoE as they run past me and I then gain all the aggro.  With everyone knowing if they get in trouble to run to me I will keep an eye on health and will work to pull aggro or as a last resort buff with DD so I can get the aggro back.

[WuphonsReach]

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saw2814 wrote:

I sure would not complain if the recast timer on Shout was lowered a little bit. When I have a group of mobs I want to stay on me it seems like shout takes a week to refresh.

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If you're having to spam your taunt or shout keys to maintain aggro, then the group as a whole is doing a poor job of aggro management and all need to rethink the battle plan.Save taunt and shout for dire cases only, don't get your group dependent on you spamming those skills to maintain aggro. Otherwise, when the bad stuff happens, you won't have anything to fall back upon to regain aggro.

[Anash]

Really what else is a tank there for but to hold aggro and take hits, if you dont do your best to keep aggro you are not doing your main job, thats why spaming taunts is part of our job, even if you are not losing aggro you still need to keep you number one on the hate list.

 

Had a five person group last night fighting mobs around Nektropos last night, had a defiler, sk, bruiser, assassin, and coehercer and I very seldom lost aggro with the two DPS guys in the group.

[WuphonsReach]

Aggro is never soley the tank's job. Except for back when SKs were slightly broken in EQ1 and could hold taunt with a level 9 DoT, I've never seen a case where a single class could hold taunt without the help of the group.People attacking too early is the fault of the early attacker, not the tank.People casting aggro-inducing spells prior to the tank getting control of the mob is the fault of the caster, not the tank.Folks who are not assisting on the tank's target, but beating on another mob in the group who then chases that person down? Again, that's the fault of the person who was not on the proper target.As a tank, there is only so much you can do to pull aggro in EQ2. And trying to race the other players in the group up the aggro chain is not the ideal way to go about it. There's a difference between playing smart and spamming taunt. A smart group helps the tank manage the aggro so that the tank doesn't *have* to spam their taunt key. That doesn't meant that the tank is just sitting there with auto-attack on, but there are other, more productive ways to stay at the top of the hate list.A smart group does this so that when things *do* go wrong (and they will), the tank has the ability to use a single taunt to pull the mob back over and have it beat on the tank again. A group that is forcing the tank to spam their taunt key removes that ability to react to bad situations. I was in a group in Zarvonn's valley last night. Me as an 18 crusader, 20 inquisitor, 3 wizards (17-20) and a rogue who was level 17 or 18. Very high DPS group, very easy to lose aggro if I try to compete soley on damage output.On the boss mob fight, I cast a *single* taunt at the beginning of the fight, and through vagaries of pathing and auto-turning, only realized that I wasn't able to see my target when the mob was about halfway dead. The only spell I had been casting was my ward spell (Demonstration of Faith) which has a bit of aggro. Never lost aggro, even though I wasn't hitting the mob.Why? Because the group had worked out aggro management on the previous two dozen pulls. They were used to me not spamming my taunt ability. They had figured out how much power they could dump and how soon they could dump it. When things went wrong, I was able to react and pull mobs off of them without breaking a sweat because they worked *with* me rather then racing to see who could kill the monster first.What was the secret? Nobody beats on the mob or casts an offensive spell until I finish my first and only HO, which ends with either the single-target or multi-target taunt. Once they see that wheel vanish, everyone lights up and starts beating the mob down. I take the hits, they do the damage, and the only time we had aggro issues was if someone did something before I finished the HO. All they had to do was be patient for 5 seconds before attacking.

[Anash]

Im saying what is wrong with spamming taunt ? even if everyone in group has brains enough not to over nuke or heal or damage, your main role is to taunt. You shouldn't use anything else besides taunts, stuns and DoF, everything else is situational. I am not totally convenced a HO works like a taunt just because it ends with a taunt, If I use decree of decay to end crushing anvil or sky cleave it doesnt return health to me, the green skull graphic doesnt show up, so that makes me think when you use taunt to finish off a HO it turns it into the HO and its no longer a taunt. when you end sky cleave with shout does it become a AoE HO ? nope, so why do you think a HO ending in a taunt actually does what the skill was originally used for.

 

Aggro holding gets harder the higher the level you are, owlbears are crazy to keep aggro sometimes, like I said eveything is situational but for the most part we need to keep taunting not because people are doing dumb things, because its our job as a tank to keep as much aggro as possible. Use shout or decree of decay so you will have a inflame up if you need, but even so inflame has a 8 sec recast so it comes back fast enough.

 

Save your power for DoFs and taunts, enough said

 

Message Edited by Anash on 12-01-2004 02:35 PM

[Twizz]

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Anash wrote:

Im saying what is wrong with spamming taunt ? even if everyone in group has brains enough not to over nuke or heal or damage, your main role is to taunt. You shouldn't use anything else besides taunts, stuns and DoF, everything else is situational. I am not totally convenced a HO works like a taunt just because it ends with a taunt, If I use decree of decay to end crushing anvil or sky cleave it doesnt return health to me, the green skull graphic doesnt show up, so that makes me think when you use taunt to finish off a HO it turns it into the HO and its no longer a taunt. when you end sky cleave with shout does it become a AoE HO ? nope, so why do you think a HO ending in a taunt actually does what the skill was originally used for.

 

Aggro holding gets harder the higher the level you are, owlbears are crazy to keep aggro sometimes, like I said eveything is situational but for the most part we need to keep taunting not because people are doing dumb things, because its our job as a tank to keep as much aggro as possible. Use shout or decree of decay so you will have a inflame up if you need, but even so inflame has a 8 sec recast so it comes back fast enough.

 

Save your power for DoFs and taunts, enough said

 

Message Edited by Anash on 12-01-2004 02:35 PM

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It's wrong spamming whatever ability spell cause it breaks things like HOs. Save your power for when you need it. 6 secs (or whetever the reuse time is) can be a long time sometimes. You have alot of time to use other spells (that also generates aggro) during a fight.

 

Mindless spamming = bad.

 

I'm not a tank myself, jsut looking at how I see people play and things that seem to work.

 

So far, I've not had a problem with SKs holding aggro off me (even with 4-6 whites engaged). I get hit sometimes but not for long. One thing that changes this is if I cast a spell on pull that lands before the SK does his first aggro spell/skill. Then I may end up using a deaggro spell to avoid aggro.

 

[WuphonsReach]

I'll give this one more shot.The core reasons not to spam taunt or any other abilty:1) It makes HO chains impossible to do (as Twizz said).2) Spamming taunt turns it into a weakness for the group. Sure, it allows people to be spam their skills and kill mobs faster. But the first time that something goes wrong, you will be completely unable to affect events because you've left yourself zero maneuvering room.If you save taunt and your other aggro spells for when things go wrong, they will be much more effective and you'll find that they work much better. Especially if you train the group to always stay below you on the aggro ladder. (And the only way to train the group to stay below you on the aggro meter is through repeated fights where you aren't spending all of your power desperately trying to hold on to the #1 position.)Basically, it's a play smarter not harder philosophy.