DPS Nerf?

[Lindhorst]

This was in the new update notes just posted:

Class Modifications

- All Fighter classes now share the same modifier to their auto attack damage.

Not sure exactly what this implies but sounds like a nerf on brawler dmg. Considering they're giving us de-agro AA's and they officially posted that brawler DPS should be 1 tier up from other fighter classes this seems a bit disconcerting. Although I might just be making a mountain out of mole hill.

Lindhorst Danger'Puss Everfrost Silent Outlanders

[Madmoon]

Might?  I think it is very pre-mature.  It is going to take a w-h-o-l-e lot of testing before we know where this washes out.  Most of the reading seems to indicate little if any difference for us.  Some say heroics are harder, now, but that is very subjective.  Even with parsers, you would need to compare the damage of the same monster before and now, and our damage against that monster, before and now, and then the same thing for any class you want to compare against.  Unless clerics are now cleaning the clocks of yellow heroics and we get stomped by blue down arrows, there would have to be a lot of hardcore numbers.  Still, the first time some pseudo-bruiser gets creamed by a monster he could take before, prepare for the Nerf whining to ramp up.

[Lindhorst]

I understand that the heroics are harder. They'll be harder for everyone. The question I'm asking is whether we will be DPS'ing the same amount as other tanks. Now this doesn't really upset me. With the changes in mitigation and mob dmg the hope is that we will actually be called on more for tanking than previously (this is not to say that we couldn't tank before). But with the new AA's there seems to be a definate role, approved by SOE, for brawlers to be DPS. You're right though. A lot of testing will be needed to figure out what this means, if anything. Sorry to sound alarming. I don't mean to.

[Gungo]

It is a dps nerf prior brawlers had a higher auto atk mod then warriors/crusaders. This change took away brawlers auto atk dps mod. But its not a significantly noticable effect. Which is why i didn't cause a hooplah about it and brawlers prolly never should of had an auto atk edge. Although this does make zerker dps more appealing. We will have to see how it turns out.

Right now the thing that pisses me off the most is the fact brawler avodiance is less effective vs High con nameed heroics and epics. I still do not understand the reasoning that plates require a 20% base block (uncontestd skill) and brawler do not recieve the same advantage with our 25% deflection. Block is not capped at 20% and neithe ris deflection. Block is raised by aa's and by adornments to acheive ~30% uncotnested avodiance. We can raise our deflection w additional points as well. But there is no reason why a brawler as the avoidance tank should have worse effective avodiance then plates. This is a programed nerf to brawler tanking.

CHANGE DEFLECTION SO ITS NOT REDUCED BY AN NPCS OFFENSIVE SKILL

[Bhronn]

---

Gungo wrote:

It is a dps nerf prior brawlers had a higher auto atk mod then warriors/crusaders. This change took away brawlers auto atk dps mod. But its not a significantly noticable effect. Which is why i didn't cause a hooplah about it and brawlers prolly never should of had an auto atk edge. Although this does make zerker dps more appealing. We will have to see how it turns out.

Right now the thing that pisses me off the most is the fact brawler avodiance is less effective vs High con nameed heroics and epics. I still do not understand the reasoning that plates require a 20% base block (uncontestd skill) and brawler do not recieve the same advantage with our 25% deflection. Block is not capped at 20% and neithe ris deflection. Block is raised by aa's and by adornments to acheive ~30% uncotnested avodiance. We can raise our deflection w additional points as well. But there is no reason why a brawler as the avoidance tank should have worse effective avodiance then plates. This is a programed nerf to brawler tanking.

CHANGE DEFLECTION SO ITS NOT REDUCED BY AN NPCS OFFENSIVE SKILL

---

And to think,  you called me whiney.InnocentFoH

[Deeds]

It is a small nerf.  Brawler auto attack dmg had a higher atk mod then the other warrior classes (as Gungo stated).

Must be my lucky day since the 2 classes I play, Brigand and Bruiser, got the biggest shaft.

[Gortesh]

I stopped in earlier to welcome ya guys to the raid tanking family for real finally.(i'm a zerker)But this does seem intersting, i'm wondering if this will decrease the brawler auto attack ability or actually increase other classes auto attack ability. We'll have to see when we can finally play that is... >.>

[Gungo]

---

Bhronn wrote:

---

Gungo wrote:

It is a dps nerf prior brawlers had a higher auto atk mod then warriors/crusaders. This change took away brawlers auto atk dps mod. But its not a significantly noticable effect. Which is why i didn't cause a hooplah about it and brawlers prolly never should of had an auto atk edge. Although this does make zerker dps more appealing. We will have to see how it turns out.

Right now the thing that pisses me off the most is the fact brawler avodiance is less effective vs High con nameed heroics and epics. I still do not understand the reasoning that plates require a 20% base block (uncontestd skill) and brawler do not recieve the same advantage with our 25% deflection. Block is not capped at 20% and neithe ris deflection. Block is raised by aa's and by adornments to acheive ~30% uncotnested avodiance. We can raise our deflection w additional points as well. But there is no reason why a brawler as the avoidance tank should have worse effective avodiance then plates. This is a programed nerf to brawler tanking.

CHANGE DEFLECTION SO ITS NOT REDUCED BY AN NPCS OFFENSIVE SKILL

---

And to think,  you called me whiney.

Innocent
FoH

---

Well arguably you are whining now. Hey if the shoe fits.

Also i made a point, provided facts and a solution. Whereas your previous posts consisted of insults, a few self deprivating comments. Such as it sucks, we suck etc. Then followed it all up with the typical threat and sarcastic comments. Hmm seems right to me.  

 

Message Edited by Gungo on 11-14-2006 11:45 AM

[Bhronn]

---

Gungo wrote:

---

Bhronn wrote:

---

Gungo wrote:

It is a dps nerf prior brawlers had a higher auto atk mod then warriors/crusaders. This change took away brawlers auto atk dps mod. But its not a significantly noticable effect. Which is why i didn't cause a hooplah about it and brawlers prolly never should of had an auto atk edge. Although this does make zerker dps more appealing. We will have to see how it turns out.

Right now the thing that pisses me off the most is the fact brawler avodiance is less effective vs High con nameed heroics and epics. I still do not understand the reasoning that plates require a 20% base block (uncontestd skill) and brawler do not recieve the same advantage with our 25% deflection. Block is not capped at 20% and neithe ris deflection. Block is raised by aa's and by adornments to acheive ~30% uncotnested avodiance. We can raise our deflection w additional points as well. But there is no reason why a brawler as the avoidance tank should have worse effective avodiance then plates. This is a programed nerf to brawler tanking.

CHANGE DEFLECTION SO ITS NOT REDUCED BY AN NPCS OFFENSIVE SKILL

---

And to think,  you called me whiney.InnocentFoH

---

Well arguably you are whining now. Hey if the shoe fits.

Also i made a point, provided facts and a solution. Whereas your previous posts consisted of insults, a few self deprivating comments. Such as it sucks, we suck etc. Then followed it all up with the typical threat and sarcastic comments. Hmm seems right to me.  

 

Message Edited by Gungo on 11-14-2006 11:45 AM

---

Funny. Lets debunk your "suggestion". Because brawlers were never intended to tank epics is why deflection is checked by a mobs skill. You are ment to tank in a pinch, group content, and offtank in emergency situations on raids. Brawler leather and skills were lowered DIRECTLY because you were able to tank as well as, and sometimes better than a plate tank. Brawlers are support tanks. If they put in your suggestion, you again would be able to tank on par as a plate tank and thats just not going to happen. SKs. and paladins already have a hard time getting raid spots without SoE giving thier support roles to brawlers. You already out dps an sk and a paladin so why should you be able to out tank them also? Its called class balancing.How much testing did "you" do in EoF?  I know for a fact several positive brawler changes are directly from the testing that I did. And as posted on the other thread. My way of using sarcasm to stress a point can be construed as whiney on  a medium such as these boards. Which is why I posted under your post. I bet you werent trying to sound whiney but to stress your idea and point. It seems my subtle suggestion was lost on you.

[ganjookie]

I didnt fight any epics in Beta, but I was able to take down green/blue ^^^ still, that is with my copied character and not a beta buffed

[Deeds]

---

Bhronn wrote:

 

---

Funny. Lets debunk your "suggestion". Because brawlers were never intended to tank epics is why deflection is checked by a mobs skill. You are ment to tank in a pinch, group content, and offtank in emergency situations on raids. Brawler leather and skills were lowered DIRECTLY because you were able to tank as well as, and sometimes better than a plate tank. Brawlers are support tanks. If they put in your suggestion, you again would be able to tank on par as a plate tank and thats just not going to happen. SKs. and paladins already have a hard time getting raid spots without SoE giving thier support roles to brawlers. You already out dps an sk and a paladin so why should you be able to out tank them also? Its called class balancing.

How much testing did "you" do in EoF?  I know for a fact several positive brawler changes are directly from the testing that I did. And as posted on the other thread. My way of using sarcasm to stress a point can be construed as whiney on  a medium such as these boards. Which is why I posted under your post. I bet you werent trying to sound whiney but to stress your idea and point. It seems my subtle suggestion was lost on you.

---

Brohnn, I know you did a lot of testing and its appreciated, and I see your posts on the Brigand forums and I agree with them.  But, I can not agree with you on this one.  One of the aspects stressed in this expansion was that Brawlers would be able to tank epics on raids.  Also, by going on your analysis, of the tanking order, where do Berserkers fit in? Because atm, they can, MT, support tank, DPS, and have great grp buffs.  Thats not balance.

[Bhronn]

Well bro, I posted what I did because of talks with certain people. It comes down to this. When eq2 was designed, they wanted to get away from the "needed" roles of certain eq1 classes. Ala warriors, priests, enchanters.One of the major complaints of a player in eq1 was the having to wait for a certain class to log on to be able to do anything or having too many people playing or not playing a needed class. With that in mind they seperated the skills of your basic warrior. priest, scout, mage types into the archetypes we have now. The intent was to creat a hierarchy without any 1 archtype being "needed" about the rest. And they did a good job of it per se with the original eq2, but along came expansions and that hierarchy was changed due to itemization and skill flaws. We have seen the boards for a year talk about paladins and Sks not having any role in a raid because , well other classes such as the brawler could out dps them and out taunt and out tank. This is the parts of EoF I wholeheartedly agree on because its an attempt to set the hierarchy straight. Brawlers mitigation, be it armor and in bruisers cases, miti buffs were lowered to support paladins and Sks at having a chance to play a roll. The optimal way this pans out is this.  gaurdians in eof have stepped out of the zerk tree with AA's that will make them the top tank. Zerkers come next with reduced tanking because if you look at thier AA's they got nadda for tanking. The Sk's and palladins should be next because they are plate wearers  and in any setting should tank better than someone in leather regardless of thier dodging skills. Brawlers bring up the rear. Now all "fighter classes" can tank group content fairly even where the mobs are of relative power to the group. Thats the intention. A group can be made up of any class and have a reasonable chance to experience content, wheres as a raid needs to have some sort of balance to try and include every class without again having to make a raid wait on a class to log in. Ala I said brawlers can tank in a pinch. Given the option tho the "best" situation is a gaurd then a zerk then pally/sk then brawlers. Now the class make up of a raid is 24 slots. This is why brigs got AR nerfed and why other scouts and classes got more forms of AE avoidance as AA's. The devs saw that with the current AR, brigs were going to be preferred and set above any other scout class.  Now I think they went overboard on it but meh. It all boils down to trying to give each class a role without taking a role from another class. Or the role being preferred above the roles of another class type.Hmm hopefully I explained myself well enough. Its all about class balancing and I know I knopw what they stated. Do I really need to point out the many things that were stated that just arent true in EoF?BTW having said all of that. I dont think Avoidance is being checked right currently . With the testing I've done, I would say avoidance is not checking all 3 values. What I mean by that is, It should check base miss chance, then deflection/block, then parry.In some instances, Ive seen it only check base and not parry or deflect. I never could pinpoint why this was happening other than its using the new avoidance as a whole number as 1 check and not the 3 different %s. Example: With a base of 30% and 30 deflect you should see a pretty even spread of misses and deflects. But what was on beta showed me getting missed a whole lot more than deflecting. Then again I could be completely wrong but thats my hypothesis.

Message Edited by Bhronn on 11-14-2006 01:16 PM

[Cocytus]

I haven't had increased difficulty soloing heroics on any of my characters, myself. Blue ones and below, anyway....never tried whites or above, so I wouldn't know in that area.

[Devast]

i think i have noticed the same error with avoidance but without any concrete data. i was training around and getting hit quite a bit more than usual with a loss of only about 8% avoidance prior to the expansion. 8% shouldn't make that much of a difference. maybe it is just the eof mobs, i dont know.

[Gungo]

---

Bhronn wrote:
Well bro, I posted what I did because of talks with certain people. It comes down to this. When eq2 was designed, they wanted to get away from the "needed" roles of certain eq1 classes. Ala warriors, priests, enchanters.One of the major complaints of a player in eq1 was the having to wait for a certain class to log on to be able to do anything or having too many people playing or not playing a needed class. With that in mind they seperated the skills of your basic warrior. priest, scout, mage types into the archetypes we have now. The intent was to creat a hierarchy without any 1 archtype being "needed" about the rest. And they did a good job of it per se with the original eq2, but along came expansions and that hierarchy was changed due to itemization and skill flaws. We have seen the boards for a year talk about paladins and Sks not having any role in a raid because , well other classes such as the brawler could out dps them and out taunt and out tank. This is the parts of EoF I wholeheartedly agree on because its an attempt to set the hierarchy straight. Brawlers mitigation, be it armor and in bruisers cases, miti buffs were lowered to support paladins and Sks at having a chance to play a roll. The optimal way this pans out is this.  gaurdians in eof have stepped out of the zerk tree with AA's that will make them the top tank. Zerkers come next with reduced tanking because if you look at thier AA's they got nadda for tanking. The Sk's and palladins should be next because they are plate wearers  and in any setting should tank better than someone in leather regardless of thier dodging skills. Brawlers bring up the rear. Now all "fighter classes" can tank group content fairly even where the mobs are of relative power to the group. Thats the intention. A group can be made up of any class and have a reasonable chance to experience content, wheres as a raid needs to have some sort of balance to try and include every class without again having to make a raid wait on a class to log in. Ala I said brawlers can tank in a pinch. Given the option tho the "best" situation is a gaurd then a zerk then pally/sk then brawlers.

Now the class make up of a raid is 24 slots. This is why brigs got AR nerfed and why other scouts and classes got more forms of AE avoidance as AA's. The devs saw that with the current AR, brigs were going to be preferred and set above any other scout class.  Now I think they went overboard on it but meh. It all boils down to trying to give each class a role without taking a role from another class. Or the role being preferred above the roles of another class type.

Hmm hopefully I explained myself well enough. Its all about class balancing and I know I knopw what they stated. Do I really need to point out the many things that were stated that just arent true in EoF?

BTW having said all of that. I dont think Avoidance is being checked right currently . With the testing I've done, I would say avoidance is not checking all 3 values. What I mean by that is, It should check base miss chance, then deflection/block, then parry.In some instances, Ive seen it only check base and not parry or deflect. I never could pinpoint why this was happening other than its using the new avoidance as a whole number as 1 check and not the 3 different %s. Example: With a base of 30% and 30 deflect you should see a pretty even spread of misses and deflects. But what was on beta showed me getting missed a whole lot more than deflecting. Then again I could be completely wrong but thats my hypothesis.

Message Edited by Bhronn on 11-14-2006 01:16 PM

---

I think we been through these talks before. Do i need to provide the quotes directly from developers stating brawlers are ment to tank as well as plates. Or is your opinion worth more then what the people who design the game? Because plainly your opinion is wrong.

Warriors have tried this same argument many many many times. And each and every time Multiple devs has stated brawlers are ment to tank, that brawlers are not a DPS class. We are ment to tank as well as plates. You are wrong.

Message Edited by Gungo on 11-14-2006 07:34 PM

[swiftne]

---

Gungo wrote:

It is a dps nerf prior brawlers had a higher auto atk mod then warriors/crusaders. This change took away brawlers auto atk dps mod. But its not a significantly noticable effect. Which is why i didn't cause a hooplah about it and brawlers prolly never should of had an auto atk edge. Although this does make zerker dps more appealing. We will have to see how it turns out.

Right now the thing that pisses me off the most is the fact brawler avodiance is less effective vs High con nameed heroics and epics. I still do not understand the reasoning that plates require a 20% base block (uncontestd skill) and brawler do not recieve the same advantage with our 25% deflection. Block is not capped at 20% and neithe ris deflection. Block is raised by aa's and by adornments to acheive ~30% uncotnested avodiance. We can raise our deflection w additional points as well. But there is no reason why a brawler as the avoidance tank should have worse effective avodiance then plates. This is a programed nerf to brawler tanking.

CHANGE DEFLECTION SO ITS NOT REDUCED BY AN NPCS OFFENSIVE SKILL

---

 

Dude lol. a brawler was NEVER meant to be a main tank by any means, and to be honest I disagree with them even being a tank period. You were supposed to be great dps compared to the plate tanks for one. And furthermore mainly just an alternate playstyle choice. Let's think about what you are saying about the plate tank vs leather tank for a second.....

You're saying that a cast iron frying pan strapped to my chest should not have an uncontested block value? Think about that for a second, or better yet go punch your stove.

Leather tanks should have their deflection uncontested........Your deflection works more off personal skill than the block from plate armor. Are you telling me that if someone shoots a bullet at a truck, that the truck should not be able to absorb some of the blow even though it is made of metal, but if someone shoots a bullet at a deer, the deer should be able to deflect 25% of all bullets shot?

Sorry to use real life terms for this arguement, I realize EQ2 is not real life, but the fact of the matter is some of the aspects of the game have to be realistic such as armor and what it does/does not do for you.

 

Message Edited by swiftness on 11-14-2006 07:35 PM

[Gungo]

---

swiftness wrote:

---

Gungo wrote:

It is a dps nerf prior brawlers had a higher auto atk mod then warriors/crusaders. This change took away brawlers auto atk dps mod. But its not a significantly noticable effect. Which is why i didn't cause a hooplah about it and brawlers prolly never should of had an auto atk edge. Although this does make zerker dps more appealing. We will have to see how it turns out.

Right now the thing that pisses me off the most is the fact brawler avodiance is less effective vs High con nameed heroics and epics. I still do not understand the reasoning that plates require a 20% base block (uncontestd skill) and brawler do not recieve the same advantage with our 25% deflection. Block is not capped at 20% and neithe ris deflection. Block is raised by aa's and by adornments to acheive ~30% uncotnested avodiance. We can raise our deflection w additional points as well. But there is no reason why a brawler as the avoidance tank should have worse effective avodiance then plates. This is a programed nerf to brawler tanking.

CHANGE DEFLECTION SO ITS NOT REDUCED BY AN NPCS OFFENSIVE SKILL

---

 

Dude lol. a brawler was NEVER meant to be a main tank by any means, and to be honest I disagree with them even being a tank period. You were supposed to be great dps compared to the plate tanks for one. And furthermore mainly just an alternate playstyle choice. Let's think about what you are saying about the plate tank vs leather tank for a second.....

You're saying that a cast iron frying pan strapped to my chest should not have an uncontested block value? Think about that for a second, or better yet go punch your stove.

Leather tanks should have their deflection uncontested........Your deflection works more off personal skill than the block from plate armor. Are you telling me that if someone shoots a bullet at a truck, that the truck should not be able to absorb some of the blow even though it is made of metal, but if someone shoots a bullet at a deer, the deer should be able to deflect 25% of all bullets shot?

Sorry to use real life terms for this arguement, I realize EQ2 is not real life, but the fact of the matter is some of the aspects of the game have to be realistic such as armor and what it does/does not do for you.

 

Message Edited by swiftness on 11-14-2006 07:35 PM

---

That would be true if the developers of the game didn't say otherwise. We are fighters and ment to tank.

"Brawlers do have a defined role in our game: they are tanks. Their method of tanking is based on avoidance and deflection rather than mitigation.  "

This is one of liek 10 qoutes the devs have stated in regards to this same argument. Its been rehashed since the days prior to LU13 and it is always the same BRAWLERS are tanks. Brawlers are ment to tank as well as any fighter. Huge posts were made on this same issue and respoded to by moorgard and lockeye and each and eveyr time its the same exact thing.

 

Message Edited by Gungo on 11-14-2006 07:49 PM

[swiftne]

Guess we should let coercers and illusionist nuke for as much as wizards and locks, and for that matter let a ranger hit as hard as every other scout while staying at range and maintain that dmg through the whole fight. Come on dude there are sacrifices for each unique ability you are given. Yes devs said you can tank, I SERIOUSLY doubt that they are meaning for you to be able to be the MT for end game raids. If that was the case why would we want the plate tank? Don'y come at me with aggro issues you are given a full line of skills that generate more hate than you think. If you wanna go down any road of tanking, then let's get Crusaders the same raw dmg output that you have.

[Gungo]

---

swiftness wrote:

Guess we should let coercers and illusionist nuke for as much as wizards and locks, and for that matter let a ranger hit as hard as every other scout while staying at range and maintain that dmg through the whole fight. Come on dude there are sacrifices for each unique ability you are given. Yes devs said you can tank, I SERIOUSLY doubt that they are meaning for you to be able to be the MT for end game raids. If that was the case why would we want the plate tank? Don'y come at me with aggro issues you are given a full line of skills that generate more hate than you think. If you wanna go down any road of tanking, then let's get Crusaders the same raw dmg output that you have.

---

Actually it was also said we should be able to tank epics as well. Seriously do your own research its not hard the forums have a nice adv search feature put in the keywords brawler and tank. Then put in specific developr poster names. They all same the say thing i am right now telling you. These debates have been going since lu13. You are wrong. I am sorry its a fact of life you need to deal with.

and if you think a warrior can not do comparable(sometimes bettter in the zerk case) dps to a brawler you should really get a better bezerker or see a fully fabled guard w the stamina line. That unique ability of dps is not so unique now is it.

Message Edited by Gungo on 11-14-2006 07:55 PM

[swiftne]

Even after editing your post you still failed to make alot of it comprehendable to someone who is not fluent in dumbarse. But, I do have a little brother, so I got it translated. Developers say alot of things, and it still makes little difference on what happens in case you have'nt noticed that. Keep being upset about these changes all you want, you have the Dev quotes right? Maybe those can tank for you.

 

 

---

Then put in specific developr poster names. They all same the say thing i am right now telling you.

---

 

Message Edited by swiftness on 11-14-2006 08:07 PM

[Deeds]

Anyways,

I left my bruiser in SoS because I wanted to compare the before and after in there, since its my favorite farming place.  Let me just say that mobs (especially melee mobs) were hiting me a lot more often.  Mobs that were a joke before, are not anymore.  I was taking a lot more damage.  Not good.

[kittypack]

I agree i also think, although i havent done any tests on the actual %s of my avoidance, we are in fact getting hit more often than we should. Also, there was a change to spike damage with lu29 (eof). well, as it stands now, mobs tend to actually hit harder on my brawler, where as before it seemed as though a single no arrow mob would on an auto attack hit me for maybe around 100 ( green, blue mobs, i am 70 ) are hitting for closer to 200, maybe more ( these are not combat skills eaither ).

As far as our auto attack being reduced, i havent noticed the change, in fact i think i am doing more overall damage..

[Owa]

Please don't start the Brawlers aren't meant to be MT thing again. Yes we are. Find a quote from the deves ststing otherwise. You want to talk about class balance - what about the fact that a Swashy can tank almost all of Labs and can out-DPS any of us? Plus they have track, evac, stealth etc etc. You don't want Brawlers to MT? Well at least we're fighters. If a scout can MT Labs, what should Bruisers be able to tank?  

My understanding was that one of the stated aims in this expansion was to make the gap between avoidance tanking and mitigation tanking less extreme. If after this, Brawlers can still not MT raids on a comparable level with plate tanks, then the devs won't have achieved what they said they wanted to achieve.

[aislynn00]

I play a tier 7 raid-equipped guardian with the wisdom and stamina AA lines, including max mitigation, block, DPS, and double attack bonuses.  My weapon is Ascendant, currently something like 78 DR.  All relevant CA's and buffs are Master I or II.

 

Last night, while mentored down to 59th level, I went to New Tunaria, accompanied by my wife's mystic alt. 

 

The mobs there are mid to upper 50's, 90% of them heroic after the initial soloing area.

 

Vs one mob, we were fine; I could usually tank in offensive stance, even though I had to switch to defensive once in a while when the mob got a few big hits in.

 

Vs two mobs, we were hard-pressed.  I had to use everything--Plant, my short-term mitigation buffs, Stone Sphere--to finish the fight alive.  Half the time, I had to disband the group and finish the fight at 70th.

 

We died twice while in the zone, both times fighting two blue-conning heroics simultaneously, one time after I had disbanded (to stop mentoring) and rejoined the group.

 

To give you a frame of reference, I was able to solo blue-conning heroics a couple of days ago.  I could take down two simultaneously when using all CA's and buffs available to me, even though it often got pretty close if casters were involved.

 

Today, after EoF went live, I am able to duo a blue-con heroic in New Tunaria.  Solo, I don't have a prayer; I'm not even able to get it below 50%.  Vs two blue-con heroics, it gets hard--occasionally too hard--to stay alive. 

 

Granted, my wife's mystic isn't even close to mastered out--she is going to betray to defiler soon--but skillwise, she is the best healer I have ever played with and is in the MT group on all our raids.  I, myself, am raid MT and have two years of tanking experience with heroic zones, Nizara among them, so I know what I'm doing, too.

 

And yet, the game just became one hell of a lot more challenging.  I attribute this primarily to one simple fact: I'm now sitting at 60% base mitigation (without short-term buffs), meaning I take almost twice the damage I used to before EoF (I was at almost 80% mitigation self-buffed.) 

 

Mobs are supposed to hit less hard?  Not in New Tunaria.  The mobs in there hit me for a great deal more than I am used to seeing in the deeper parts of SoS, say.

 

Is this a bad thing?  At face value, I don't think so.  The heroic game just became far more challenging, and thus, more interesting.  Is game balance still preserved?  That, on the other hand, remains to be seen.

[Nocifer Deathblade]

---

Deedbit wrote:

Anyways,

I left my bruiser in SoS because I wanted to compare the before and after in there, since its my favorite farming place.  Let me just say that mobs (especially melee mobs) were hiting me a lot more often.  Mobs that were a joke before, are not anymore.  I was taking a lot more damage.  Not good.

---

Yeah me too. I'm disappointed at tanking ability of bruiser now. ;( I can't even solo blue heroics anymore..  I even went to kaladim and LOST a fight against lvl 62 ^^^ heroic mob so had to FD. Maybe it had a luck hitting me with him and his pet... Something is wrong with tanking ability right now. I only lost 6% avoidance and gained 2% mitigation but that shouldn't make a HUGE difference in tanking ability against heroics..

I do realize that patch said that they made green/blue heroics more tougher to handle.. That could be the reason why we experience more difficult time to beat those conned mobs..

Message Edited by Nocifer Deathblade on 11-15-2006 06:47 AM

[Bhronn]

Ahh, No where did I deny what a dev has stated. I did say that devs have stated lots of things and alot arent true in the game.  I will point out in eof , bruisers got thier 3 minute miti buff reduced by half. Now you can say that was for the combat changes but I disagree. Its a hard point in game indication they dont want brawlers to MT a raid. Again we are fighters and can tank in a pinch, but you cant say, given the abilities of EoF that "any" dev thinks you should MT. Its just not there in the coding and its not there in the AA's. Go ahead and hang on to those quotes tho while EoF raid mobs are bashing your face. Also for the guy about swashies. They arent, or any scout for that matter, tanking labs or any epic content now. Scouts on a whole took a 1k miti nerf and the avoidance nerf like everyone else. My brig in all fabled ended up 984 mitigation lower than what was on live. 3500 mitigation with 30% avoidance isnt tanking poop.Anyways back to some real discussion, yea the avoidance is deffinatly NOT checking correctly and Ill stand by my analysis that its only checking 1 time instead of 3.Edit: btw all named heroics in Kos got thier HP raised by half. This is why they are extrememly more difficult to solo. Well that and the above avoidance issue. Also to effectively do a whole scale reduction to mobs in the game, You have to go zone by zone. It cant be done on a "world" type sustem.

BTW gungo it was lockeye himself who was asked this question. I dont have the quote but im sure someone can supply but he was asked why avoidance tanking sucked. His answer was, yes it does. You  sir, are holding on to an idea that isnt supported by the game. I dont think my opinion counts, But I am intellegent enough to look at the game and how it plays and draw a conclusion.

Message Edited by Bhronn on 11-15-2006 07:45 AM

[Gungo]

---

Bhronn wrote:
Ahh, No where did I deny what a dev has stated. I did say that devs have stated lots of things and alot arent true in the game.  I will point out in eof , bruisers got thier 3 minute miti buff reduced by half. Now you can say that was for the combat changes but I disagree. Its a hard point in game indication they dont want brawlers to MT a raid. Again we are fighters and can tank in a pinch, but you cant say, given the abilities of EoF that "any" dev thinks you should MT. Its just not there in the coding and its not there in the AA's. Go ahead and hang on to those quotes tho while EoF raid mobs are bashing your face.

Also for the guy about swashies. They arent, or any scout for that matter, tanking labs or any epic content now. Scouts on a whole took a 1k miti nerf and the avoidance nerf like everyone else. My brig in all fabled ended up 984 mitigation lower than what was on live. 3500 mitigation with 30% avoidance isnt tanking poop.

Anyways back to some real discussion, yea the avoidance is deffinatly NOT checking correctly and Ill stand by my analysis that its only checking 1 time instead of 3.


Edit: btw all named heroics in Kos got thier HP raised by half. This is why they are extrememly more difficult to solo. Well that and the above avoidance issue. Also to effectively do a whole scale reduction to mobs in the game, You have to go zone by zone. It cant be done on a "world" type sustem.

BTW gungo it was lockeye himself who was asked this question. I dont have the quote but im sure someone can supply but he was asked why avoidance tanking sucked. His answer was, yes it does. You  sir, are holding on to an idea that isnt supported by the game. I dont think my opinion counts, But I am intellegent enough to look at the game and how it plays and draw a conclusion.

Message Edited by Bhronn on 11-15-2006 07:45 AM

---

Btw the game has existed with brawler tankign for sometime i have specifically tanked MO, taranix etc. I do better then most tanks on nizara etc. This is all we want some form of balance in our class and ability to tank if needed. Also some flavor of avodiance tanking. Since your entire post above was about your OPINION. And was irrelevant considering the fact these are massive combat changes are for only 1 day. I ended up talking to lockeye for a bit who said he was going to see about your avodiance checking problem and look into deflection as well.

I remeber that qoute from lockeye it also came from the same post he said was the reasoning why they are fixing avodiance so that avodiance tanking becomes more meaningful. You know why right? Because Brawlers are intended to be tanks. Thank you bhronn for your opinion. It really helped all the brawlers out there.

By the way for any brawlers out there who want to know.
"An uncontested portion of deflect is coming but didn't make the beta cut."

 

Message Edited by Gungo on 11-15-2006 11:07 AM

[kittypack]

By the way for any brawlers out there who want to know.
"An uncontested portion of deflect is coming but didn't make the beta cut."

 

Ummm. yeah, I'll believe that when me [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to purple and tastes like cranberry flavored sherbert.

[Bhronn]

---

---

---

Btw the game has existed with brawler tankign for sometime i have specifically tanked MO, taranix etc. I do better then most tanks on nizara etc. This is all we want some form of balance in our class and ability to tank if needed. Also some flavor of avodiance tanking. Since your entire post above was about your OPINION. And was irrelevant considering the fact these are massive combat changes are for only 1 day. I ended up talking to lockeye for a bit who said he was going to see about your avodiance checking problem and look into deflection as well.

I remeber that qoute from lockeye it also came from the same post he said was the reasoning why they are fixing avodiance so that avodiance tanking becomes more meaningful. You know why right? Because Brawlers are intended to be tanks. Thank you bhronn for your opinion. It really helped all the brawlers out there.

By the way for any brawlers out there who want to know."An uncontested portion of deflect is coming but didn't make the beta cut."

 

Message Edited by Gungo on 11-15-2006 11:07 AM

---

Heh, funny. Your the guy who stands in the trailer while a tornado is raging around , asking, "what wind"?  I see you flat avoided the examples I gave and as I expected, grouped them into the combat changes. Regardless, im done with you. 

[Gungo]

---

Bhronn wrote:

---

---

---

Btw the game has existed with brawler tankign for sometime i have specifically tanked MO, taranix etc. I do better then most tanks on nizara etc. This is all we want some form of balance in our class and ability to tank if needed. Also some flavor of avodiance tanking. Since your entire post above was about your OPINION. And was irrelevant considering the fact these are massive combat changes are for only 1 day. I ended up talking to lockeye for a bit who said he was going to see about your avodiance checking problem and look into deflection as well.

I remeber that qoute from lockeye it also came from the same post he said was the reasoning why they are fixing avodiance so that avodiance tanking becomes more meaningful. You know why right? Because Brawlers are intended to be tanks. Thank you bhronn for your opinion. It really helped all the brawlers out there.

By the way for any brawlers out there who want to know.
"An uncontested portion of deflect is coming but didn't make the beta cut."

 

Message Edited by Gungo on 11-15-2006 11:07 AM

---

Heh, funny. Your the guy who stands in the trailer while a tornado is raging around , asking, "what wind"?  I see you flat avoided the examples I gave and as I expected, grouped them into the combat changes. Regardless, im done with you. 

---

What examples? You provided nothign but your opinion. You somehow inferred eof aa's and the changes to the mit buff line means we are not ment to tank. Oddly 2 lines in the eof aa's are tanking specfic. Longer migation buff,faster immunity to spell damge, several taunt abilites. And mitgation was reduced across the board. Heck everyone knew the mit for hp buff was a tad overpower. Even i said i was expecting it to get nerfed someday. I also expect one day they will change our slef heal to straight hp's and not a %.

Yet i talked to designers of  the game and he basically proved you wrong.  i provided you past developer qoutes and you end up crying and runnign away. Like i said before thanks for your opinion. Please go whine on another board.

Message Edited by Gungo on 11-15-2006 04:24 PM