Our endgame weapons are hurting our potential

Maelwy · 06-27-2006, 04:43 AM

Just ran thru a batch of parses, trying to calculate some specific proc rates.

The results are quite disheartening.

With a matched set of the "Twin Calamaties" equipped, and Rumble up (25% proc rate) I procced on between 2-4% of all outgoing hits.

With Staff of the Flapping Wing, the proc rate increased to 8-10%.

What this is showing me, is that our class specific weapons, (fast dual wield fist weapons) are holding us back on our damage potential, as well as our aggro potential.

Once again, we're back to seeing gross inequality between the fast acting weapons and the slow hitting weapons. Normalizing the procs has killed any concept of playing a bruiser with class specific weapons.

Raidi Sovin'faile · 06-27-2006, 04:59 AM

I'm not discounting the fact that the Staff of the Flapping Wing is doing "more", however I'm wondering how you are getting the %'s.

Procs only happen on the first hit of a CA that has multiple hits, and won't proc off other procs (like buffs from mages, etc), nor will it proc off double attack, and any number of things (like thorns, etc).

So if you are just taking the number of hits you did, and the number of times Rumble proc'd, then you are getting a false number. If you are using ACT and taking the % off the pie chart, then all you are doing is showing what % of damage Rumble is doing... it's not the % of times it went off.

I'm sorry if I sound like I don't believe you, or that I'm challenging you, but I've seen posts where folks didn't get their numbers right before. I just want to make sure we have the right numbers before we start saying the sky is falling.

Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on 06-26-2006 08:00 PM

TheSummoned · 06-27-2006, 05:09 AM

ACT will also record hits and misses of a particular combat art/auto attack.

Raidi Sovin'faile · 06-27-2006, 05:22 AM

Yes, but it will count every single hit or miss, which means when you use Hundred Hand Punch, all 8 hits will be counted, but really you only had one chance to proc.

Add all those up, and you can end up with way too many hits compared to procing hits. With a warlock buffing me with procs, a druid giving me thorns and procs, and abilities like Flaming Lunge, Savage Blows, Slap Around, Hundred Hand Punch, Knockout Combo, Thundering Fists, etc... I can end up with 3 times the hits than I should have, compared to how many were actually Procing hits.

Which means 10 procs of Rumble on 150 hits, might actually be 10 out of 50 proc'ing hits. Which is a MUCH higher proc rate.

Hope that makes sense.

J4k · 06-27-2006, 06:26 AM

This is why i use 2handers rather then duel wields

Dahlrek · 06-27-2006, 10:36 AM

I'd also love to see how you're actually calculating proc rate. Last I checked, primary DW hand proc'd just as often as a 2H (which is how it should be since they changed the way procs are allowed to fire), and both had exactly the expected proc rate.I don't think it's fair to extrapolate one test across all weapons, especially since you didn't describe your methodology and controls. That said, it's entirely possible that certain weapons don't proc as often as they should (or perhaps more often than they should), given how many they've had to fix already.

Maelwy · 06-27-2006, 10:48 AM

I took melee hits, ca hits, (modifying the multi hit ca's to an approximate usage, rather than taking it at face value # of hits.. ie, if i hit with 100hand 14 times in a 2 minute 12 second fight, I counted it as 3 attacks-) and divided the total of individual proc qualified attacks into the number of actual proc hits.

So, where act may have represented 220 hits, the actually proc qualified hits tended to run closer to 180.

I've also tested a number of weapon proc rates, using similar calculations.

The problem is that normalization has killed the benefits of low damage fast action weapons. Plain and simple...slow and hard hitting weapons proc ca and weapon procs at a substantially higher rate, however, none of our class defining weapons take that into consideration.

DarkMirrax · 06-27-2006, 12:05 PM

J4kik wrote:
This is why i use 2handers rather then duel wields

Same here , 2hander have always proc'd more becasue of the slower base speed , nothing beats bashing the crap outta a mob with a flapping wing staff with a nuke blam nuke proc attached to it meh !

Dahlrek · 06-28-2006, 01:05 AM

Maelwys1 wrote:
I took melee hits, ca hits, (modifying the multi hit ca's to an approximate usage, rather than taking it at face value # of hits.. ie, if i hit with 100hand 14 times in a 2 minute 12 second fight, I counted it as 3 attacks-) and divided the total of individual proc qualified attacks into the number of actual proc hits.
So, where act may have represented 220 hits, the actually proc qualified hits tended to run closer to 180.
I've also tested a number of weapon proc rates, using similar calculations.
The problem is that normalization has killed the benefits of low damage fast action weapons. Plain and simple...slow and hard hitting weapons proc ca and weapon procs at a substantially higher rate, however, none of our class defining weapons take that into consideration.

First, melee proc chance and CA proc chance are completely different, you can't lump them together and get a correct answer. Second, offhand only procs its innate, so its melee hits must be thrown out if you're checking for buff-based procs or primary innate procs (and primary melee hits must be thrown out if you're checking offhand innate procs).Your assertion about normalization is correct but irrelevant (or just incorrect, depending on what you mean by rate). Normalization is exactly what it says it is, it normalizes the number of procs over time, which (except in very specific circumstances) is all that matters. On average you'll get the same number of Rumble procs over a minute, regardless of your weapon setup.The exception is when you're using a fast weapon in your primary hand while spamming CAs, which (on average) penalizes fast weapons more than slow ones. This is part and parcel of the general autoattack loss when spamming CAs. If you're calculating procs/hit, that value will still be correct, but if you're calculating procs/second the value will generally be lower for faster weapons. Note that I didn't say "DW", I said "fast", because there are plenty of fast 2Hs and plenty of slow DW to choose from.

Raidi Sovin'faile · 06-28-2006, 02:02 AM

Note that the speed of casting your CAs is pretty quick as well. If you spam your combat arts (0.5s cast time), you aren't going to lose that much autoattack. Especially since you seem to autoattack in the 0.5s cooldown anyways, so it finds the time to fit in your autoattacks.

It's when you are constantly hitting whatever refreshes right away... like hitting pound and dropkick every single time it's up. Not only is that hard on your power, but it's adding in a second here, a second there, to interupting your autoattack. If your hate 100%, your autoattack will most likely be down to a second anyways, even as a 2hander.

If you spam your CAs, then wait for the 30s refreshes to spam again.. you most likely end up doing better. Even doing 12 CAs is only 6s wasted.. is 6-8 autoattacks going to be more than your whole list of CAs worth in damage?

Hell... if it is, then take out Combat Arts from your totation until you have only the ones that will do more than your autoattack. Saves you on power too.

I'm going to check my stats, and see if I can min/max this a bit...

Bad · 06-28-2006, 02:13 AM

I'm a little confused by the OP.

Fast weapons are supposed to get the same number of procs over time. Because they're faster, they'll get fewer procs per hit.

You seem to be suggesting that a slow weapon that gets more procs per hit (but the same number of procs per second) is better somehow. How so?

06-27-2006, 04:43 AM	#1
Maelwy Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 259	Just ran thru a batch of parses, trying to calculate some specific proc rates. The results are quite disheartening. With a matched set of the "Twin Calamaties" equipped, and Rumble up (25% proc rate) I procced on between 2-4% of all outgoing hits. With Staff of the Flapping Wing, the proc rate increased to 8-10%. What this is showing me, is that our class specific weapons, (fast dual wield fist weapons) are holding us back on our damage potential, as well as our aggro potential. Once again, we're back to seeing gross inequality between the fast acting weapons and the slow hitting weapons. Normalizing the procs has killed any concept of playing a bruiser with class specific weapons. __________________ 70 Warlock and 70 Bruiser Currently filling NS's official corpse role, AND it's redheaded stepchild position.

06-27-2006, 05:09 AM	#3
TheSummoned Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 713	ACT will also record hits and misses of a particular combat art/auto attack. __________________ __________________________ Yukia, Darathar's bruiser - Retired Ajeco, 70 Splitpaw bruiser - Retired Ezahia, dirge of Validus, Splitpaw

06-27-2006, 06:26 AM	#5
J4k Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 288	This is why i use 2handers rather then duel wields __________________

06-27-2006, 10:48 AM	#7
Maelwy Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 259	I took melee hits, ca hits, (modifying the multi hit ca's to an approximate usage, rather than taking it at face value # of hits.. ie, if i hit with 100hand 14 times in a 2 minute 12 second fight, I counted it as 3 attacks-) and divided the total of individual proc qualified attacks into the number of actual proc hits. So, where act may have represented 220 hits, the actually proc qualified hits tended to run closer to 180. I've also tested a number of weapon proc rates, using similar calculations. The problem is that normalization has killed the benefits of low damage fast action weapons. Plain and simple...slow and hard hitting weapons proc ca and weapon procs at a substantially higher rate, however, none of our class defining weapons take that into consideration. __________________ 70 Warlock and 70 Bruiser Currently filling NS's official corpse role, AND it's redheaded stepchild position.

06-27-2006, 12:05 PM	#8
DarkMirrax Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,238	J4kik wrote: This is why i use 2handers rather then duel wields Same here , 2hander have always proc'd more becasue of the slower base speed , nothing beats bashing the crap outta a mob with a flapping wing staff with a nuke blam nuke proc attached to it meh ! __________________ Q - Named and epics get + to hit which makes avoidance tanking suck. A- Yes they do, and yes it does =========================== Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard Game Designer, EverQuest II ... Whats Amazing Reflexes ?? ....... ===========================

06-27-2006, 04:59 AM	#2
Raidi Sovin'faile Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,320	I'm not discounting the fact that the Staff of the Flapping Wing is doing "more", however I'm wondering how you are getting the %'s. Procs only happen on the first hit of a CA that has multiple hits, and won't proc off other procs (like buffs from mages, etc), nor will it proc off double attack, and any number of things (like thorns, etc). So if you are just taking the number of hits you did, and the number of times Rumble proc'd, then you are getting a false number. If you are using ACT and taking the % off the pie chart, then all you are doing is showing what % of damage Rumble is doing... it's not the % of times it went off. I'm sorry if I sound like I don't believe you, or that I'm challenging you, but I've seen posts where folks didn't get their numbers right before. I just want to make sure we have the right numbers before we start saying the sky is falling. Message Edited by Raidi Sovin'faile on 06-26-2006 08:00 PM

06-27-2006, 05:22 AM	#4
Raidi Sovin'faile Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,320	Yes, but it will count every single hit or miss, which means when you use Hundred Hand Punch, all 8 hits will be counted, but really you only had one chance to proc. Add all those up, and you can end up with way too many hits compared to procing hits. With a warlock buffing me with procs, a druid giving me thorns and procs, and abilities like Flaming Lunge, Savage Blows, Slap Around, Hundred Hand Punch, Knockout Combo, Thundering Fists, etc... I can end up with 3 times the hits than I should have, compared to how many were actually Procing hits. Which means 10 procs of Rumble on 150 hits, might actually be 10 out of 50 proc'ing hits. Which is a MUCH higher proc rate. Hope that makes sense.

06-27-2006, 10:36 AM	#6
Dahlrek Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 92	I'd also love to see how you're actually calculating proc rate. Last I checked, primary DW hand proc'd just as often as a 2H (which is how it should be since they changed the way procs are allowed to fire), and both had exactly the expected proc rate.I don't think it's fair to extrapolate one test across all weapons, especially since you didn't describe your methodology and controls. That said, it's entirely possible that certain weapons don't proc as often as they should (or perhaps more often than they should), given how many they've had to fix already.

06-28-2006, 01:05 AM	#9
Dahlrek Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 92	Maelwys1 wrote: I took melee hits, ca hits, (modifying the multi hit ca's to an approximate usage, rather than taking it at face value # of hits.. ie, if i hit with 100hand 14 times in a 2 minute 12 second fight, I counted it as 3 attacks-) and divided the total of individual proc qualified attacks into the number of actual proc hits. So, where act may have represented 220 hits, the actually proc qualified hits tended to run closer to 180. I've also tested a number of weapon proc rates, using similar calculations. The problem is that normalization has killed the benefits of low damage fast action weapons. Plain and simple...slow and hard hitting weapons proc ca and weapon procs at a substantially higher rate, however, none of our class defining weapons take that into consideration. First, melee proc chance and CA proc chance are completely different, you can't lump them together and get a correct answer. Second, offhand only procs its innate, so its melee hits must be thrown out if you're checking for buff-based procs or primary innate procs (and primary melee hits must be thrown out if you're checking offhand innate procs).Your assertion about normalization is correct but irrelevant (or just incorrect, depending on what you mean by rate). Normalization is exactly what it says it is, it normalizes the number of procs over time, which (except in very specific circumstances) is all that matters. On average you'll get the same number of Rumble procs over a minute, regardless of your weapon setup.The exception is when you're using a fast weapon in your primary hand while spamming CAs, which (on average) penalizes fast weapons more than slow ones. This is part and parcel of the general autoattack loss when spamming CAs. If you're calculating procs/hit, that value will still be correct, but if you're calculating procs/second the value will generally be lower for faster weapons. Note that I didn't say "DW", I said "fast", because there are plenty of fast 2Hs and plenty of slow DW to choose from.

06-28-2006, 02:02 AM	#10
Raidi Sovin'faile Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,320	Note that the speed of casting your CAs is pretty quick as well. If you spam your combat arts (0.5s cast time), you aren't going to lose that much autoattack. Especially since you seem to autoattack in the 0.5s cooldown anyways, so it finds the time to fit in your autoattacks. It's when you are constantly hitting whatever refreshes right away... like hitting pound and dropkick every single time it's up. Not only is that hard on your power, but it's adding in a second here, a second there, to interupting your autoattack. If your hate 100%, your autoattack will most likely be down to a second anyways, even as a 2hander. If you spam your CAs, then wait for the 30s refreshes to spam again.. you most likely end up doing better. Even doing 12 CAs is only 6s wasted.. is 6-8 autoattacks going to be more than your whole list of CAs worth in damage? Hell... if it is, then take out Combat Arts from your totation until you have only the ones that will do more than your autoattack. Saves you on power too. I'm going to check my stats, and see if I can min/max this a bit...

06-28-2006, 02:13 AM	#11
Bad General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 70	I'm a little confused by the OP. Fast weapons are supposed to get the same number of procs over time. Because they're faster, they'll get fewer procs per hit. You seem to be suggesting that a slow weapon that gets more procs per hit (but the same number of procs per second) is better somehow. How so?