Thanks DPS parser!

[VettsVey]

Ok, this is absoultely pointless... the parser spreads are all over the wide spectrum from decent to godly.  Got some people here ( no name pointed out particurly ) thinking this is just like EQ1 where Rangers and Rogues do the mass damage. 

 

If you havent been paying attention, alot of classes have changed since EQ1.  You get stunned, and you cant cast as a melee?  There should be one thing you should have noticed.

 

Scouts can evac! ( In EQ1 version that would have been incredible to see that happen )

 

The mass majority of the Bruiser abilities are offensive!  That right there tells you what our main job is ... to mess people, critters and creatures up.  Secondary skills are defensive/tanking skills  not very many there.

 

Take a look at the skills, think and ponder!  Count, sub categorize, whatever it takes to point out the fact we DO damage and are freaking great at it. 

[fur]

One of the main reasons i actually believe that bruisers are indeed dps primarily is our lack of aoe taunts, the other warrior archs (monks aside but they are in the same boat as us) get a good spread on taunt abilitys useable to manage a large encounter, however jeer is not a good idea when indoors, almost every dungeun will throw the mob into a wall locking the whole encounter , we do get good single taunts though so against single dual arrow mobs tankin aint a prob, however when hunting indoors beeing a main tank without a mezzer in the group can be potentially disastrous, other warrior archs just launch their aoe taunts and then proceeds to wail em down while we might have to flick in our full pletora of taunts when a rogue mob aggroes a healer or wizzy, which takes time and cost immense amounts of mana for the whole group, so imo we can tank and do a decent job but our true power in a group is as a 2nd tank, providing good dps and managing adds with intimidate or offtanking as we can easily steal aggro when needed.

 

However ive seen alot of new bruisers emerging on my server and the most prevailent question i get is about our so called immense dps outdamaging assassins and so on, alot of these new bruisers are from the fotm crowd who is now hoppin onto the bruiser bandwagon believing its the new uber class, i think those players will be sorely dissapointed as the bruiser is weak all the way into middle 30s, the skills we get 20>30 is sub par to just about every melee class in the game much due to the fact that were missing a medium atk at 25, im 32 now and my highest hitter is still rapid swings (adept 3) which do about 400 total if all 4 hits land, all other skills we get are hittin in the 60>150 range with bruising strike doin abit over 200 now and then, I know that dps improves after 30 but saying bruisers outperforme assassins and brigands etc is pure bs, i have a brigand rl bud same level as me in my group everyday, we have the same level of equip and our dps skills are all adepts and he easily outperforms my dps and by as much as 25>40% and this is not with me tankin but in a dps role. The gap between us will probably lessen when i get 100 hand slap, throat punch etc but i dont doubt for a second that he will vastly out dps me at 50.However ´thats not a problem for me at least, i will still do good damage, not as good as him but good enough to be in the upper tier of dps dealers.

[Roddy]

We need dps to hold the hate. Thats why its really important if we dont deal enough damage we would never be able to tank. Thats why we get skills such as sucker punch and dirty punch. You loose hate.smack it form behind and flip it around. We are dps and we can tank lol but ive also seen a swashy tank so who cares every class does everything i gues.

[Pola]

The idea of a Pure DPS class is dead and gone..Let it forever be buried in EQ's past.

 

Every class now has /alot/ of utility.

 

Hell.. Look at Assassins, 20-24 they get 5 abilities (fun one not included), of those, 4 have major utility/debuff abilities attached to them.

 

Scouts are good DPS, but they also contribute /alot/ more to a group than DPS now.

 

I dunno..Should we be out-damaging Scouts?

 

If this were EQ1, No..we shouldn't be.

 

However, this is EQ2. Should we be? I can't say.. I'd love to see a developer weigh in one way or the other..

 

And if something is broken, is it us? or is it scouts and mages simply cannout do enough dps?

 

I am not sure if a Nerf would be needed anyway, or perhaps a big big boost

[Haydn]

just wanted to put my 2 cents in on the Wizard DPS. 36 Wizard here and just got out of RV doing 90-150 dps on groups and 70-80 on singles. 

[Orionv]

I have a level 41 swashbuckler with Adept 1 of almost all my attacks. I have not been satisfied with our damage output compared to most other classes. Recently in a group in Rivervale, I did 63 DPS on average after 83 fights against Lamias (low AC mobs). A level 39 monk did 75 DPS on average, and a level 37 brigand did 70 DPS on average (using Master 1 of Bum Rush, a medium flank attack with 10 sec recast).

 

Later on, we started fighting higher level Lamias which con'd yellow to me, so they'd be orange or red to the rest of the group. Yet they continued to outdamage me. Occasionally I would hit 80 DPS, but only sometimes, and only while using Smugglers Talent which is a 60 second recast.

Not only our attacks and stealth attacks weaker to all other scouts, but we are extremely ineffecient with power. I blow through more power than anyone in groups I'm in, and that's just to maintain a "respectable" 60 DPS. About the only thing unique to Swashbuckler to make them appealing is their short duration mez, and the abundance of haste effects.

 

Speaking with some guildmates, I found that...

A level 48 berserker does around 175 DPS average, 200 DPS max.

A level 47 ranger does around 120 DPS average, 170 max.

A level 50 troubador does around 100 DPS, or 65 if they have to sing a lot during a fight. However their group haste adds at least 100 DPS to the group's damage so it more than makes up for it.

 

That was damage taken from fights using level 50 troubador haste and buffs, with the best weapons available (Serrated Bone Dirk) and haste items (Flowing Black Silk Sash).

 

A level 40 bruiser does around 100 DPS average, 150 max. I think at 50 a bruiser can do equal to or slightly more than a berserker.

 

If you want to be a DPS class and get a lot of groups, be a tank and DPS... be a berserker.

Personally though I love Feign Death, the Bruiser fighting styles, and the appearance of Bruiser armor. Just as I choose Swashbuckler for the style of their fighting (flamboyant AE attacks, quick attacks) and utility. Unfortunately Swashbuckler did not pan out in terms of DPS like I expected so I'm putting all my time into my bruiser now.

Message Edited by Orionvr6 on 01-03-2005 02:44 AM

[fur]

Regarding zerk dps, yeah they can probably outperform about any melee class in the game in a multiple mob encounter thanks to their awesome aoe attacks, and aoe proccs, however one of my rl buds plays a zerk (49th season) and against single target mobs his dps aint even close to bruiser/monks or scouts, zerks are kings of aoe which boosts their dps to godly levels in multiple mob encounters thanks to their pletora of aoe attacks but against single multi arrow mobs they are mediocre.

So when testing your dps against a zerker if your a monk/bruiser pull single mob dual arrows and then pull a 5+ encounter and youll notice the differance, the zerks dps will skyrocket in the large enc and will look like he was sleeping or afk in the single mob enc =).

[kata]

Well, not FOTM but I created an alt that will be working to bruiser mostly because it sounded interesting.  Personally I ignore all this "uber DPS", "best/worst tank", and other related garbage posts.  Fighters are there for tanking, doing good melee damage, and holding aggro.  Bruisers can do that, well, because they are fighters.

 

Now, as for a bruiser outdamaging a wizard on sustained DPS?  Not too hard for me to believe happening, and for a host of reasons that have nothing to do with wizards being "[Removed for Content]" or bruisers being "overpowered."

 

1. Quality of arts/spells for both.  This makes a huge differance.  A prior poster stated Apprentice III should be your minimum, they are absolutely right.  A bruiser with a mix of apprentice IIIs and a few adept 1s is going to have an easier time outdamaging a wizard using mostly apprentice IIs.

 

2. Type of encounter will matter.  Is the mob resistant to elemental attacks?  That will hurt the wizard DPS.  Is the wizard busy websurfiing when they should be nuking?  Is the wizard stuck in the EQLive mindset of "wait till 50% then start?"  Is the encounter a low-count/high-con encounter?  Those work to a brawler/bruisers favor where wizards (and the other mage subclasses) have a wide array of very nice encounter-locked AEs?

 

The limiting factor to brawler subclass tanking, as I understand it as an outsider, is it works best with shaman-priest healing as avoidance works very nicely in conjunction with wards.  Conversely, warriors and crusaders tend to be better matched with clerics and druids.  Just what I've heard, stripping away the hyperbole and exaggeration of course.

[naczeln]

Watch out!!!SOE is listening. Keep talking about your dps and you'll end up like berserkers - broken and destroyed by a nerf.

[justfr]

When it comes to single ^^ mobs Bruiser come a close 2nd to Assasins for dps. When it comes to groups of 4 or more any mage will out dps everyone due to their awesome AOE.Ive been using a dps parsar for the last week and in all groups ive been ive let them know im using it , and if they would like to see results just ask. Most groups are real keen to see how they stack up,and more so surprised when they do see the results.On a bizare note, Last night in CT we had a motley crew of a group due to the time and people that had access. So we had a lvl 43 paladin on dps duty, He was using a mercenary greatsword and out damaging me (40 bruiser) and the wiz 41. He wasnt only "just" beating us he was wholloping us by between 100-300 per mob...Nobody in the group could believe a paladin could do so much damage. If anything needs a nerf its gotta be the paladins..P

[scl]

A Bruiser out damaging a Wizard? Er.. I don't think so. Seriously, if your Wizard friends can't keep up with you let alone getting less than half you dps they seriously need to learn how to use it properly!Don't tell me you haven't noticed how much quicker a group goes through mobs with a Wizard/Warlock in the group.I'm only a level 21 Warlock but I've got an average dps of 60.3, which is hell of a lot more than the 22 Ranger, 23 Monk and 21 Paladin's I usually group with.When fighting level 20 enemies (which are more or less equal to my player level) My DD spells do: Blaze [App3] = 122avg per hitIce Spike [Adept1] = 100avg per hitHemia's Poisonous Bolt [Adept2] = 137avg per hitCreature Master Strike [Master1] = 197avg per hitDon't tell me you can compete with that.(If you're wondering why I'm commenting on the bruiser boards, It's because I have a Bruiser alt.)

[Junaru]

---

scl wrote:A Bruiser out damaging a Wizard? Er.. I don't think so. Seriously, if your Wizard friends can't keep up with you let alone getting less than half you dps they seriously need to learn how to use it properly!Don't tell me you haven't noticed how much quicker a group goes through mobs with a Wizard/Warlock in the group.I'm only a level 21 Warlock but I've got an average dps of 60.3, which is hell of a lot more than the 22 Ranger, 23 Monk and 21 Paladin's I usually group with.When fighting level 20 enemies (which are more or less equal to my player level) My DD spells do: Blaze [App3] = 122avg per hitIce Spike [Adept1] = 100avg per hitHemia's Poisonous Bolt [Adept2] = 137avg per hitCreature Master Strike [Master1] = 197avg per hitDon't tell me you can compete with that.(If you're wondering why I'm commenting on the bruiser boards, It's because I have a Bruiser alt.)

---

sc1 things change for the Warlock/Wizard post 30.. It's been stated many times a 35 Wizard/Warlock will do the same DPS as a 44 Wizard/Warlock due to the upgraded spells not being an upgrade.. Most find that their L30's big nuke at AdeptIII will out damage their 40's nukes AdeptI but a good bit..What I really find to be hard to believe is the Wizard only doing 60DPS.. My 23 Warlock breaks into the 40's sometimes against Yellow^^ and Orange^^ giants in TS.. Granted all my spells are AdeptI I just expected more from a 30's Wizard.Also if you goto each board you will see a post just like this.. It seems odd that each class has posts about out DPS others but no one has any logs to back it up. Post the logs. Let up parse them or atleast show the tables from the parses.For those looking for an EQII parser here are the 3 main ones out..EQ Companion - (Set the mod to EQII, a little confusing at 1st) Log parser with realtime parsing. GREAT HTML table output. Log Parse ExampleCombat Stats Monitor for Everquest II - Realtime parser with end of fight stats that paste right into EQII after each fight.Statalyzer - Log and realtime parser I believe.. Only used this one once.

[fur]

Well i can both confirm and deny some aspects of our dps, as ive said before i play with the same group of ppl every day and were in the same level range.

 

Bruiser dps is good but we do not come close (at least at 35) to outperforming brigands assassins or even rangers, weve done exhaustive testing with multiple users doing parses and before you ask , yep we got our skills at adept and the gear we have are about as good as it gets at our level. Unbuffed in a tanking role im about 40 dps behind my brigand friend and thats with both of us firing our skills as soon as they pop with me well over 200 in str (troub+defiler buffs), and those 40+ dps the brigand outperforms me with is actually more like 50+ but on an average its about 40-45, and remember that the brigands ruse or whatsitcalled doesnt get counted in so that's why im saying the dps is more likely 50+ then 40>45 range above me.

 

Ok using our guardian bud as meatshield to be able to test bruiser dps in dps mode i caught up abit to the brigand but in every fight he still outperformed me with no less then 10>15 dps. Now in my book this is as it should be, if im still only 10>15 dps behind my brigand bud at 50 ill be overjoyed. As a comparison the guardian who we used as meatshield to test out dps was 20>35 dps behind me when tanking and 10>20 dps behind my bruiser when going all out dps (and this with me beeing mt). So when it comes to dps i think were just were we are supposed to be, slightly ahead of other warrior archs (veeeeeery slim differance between us and monks veeeeeryyy=) and slightly behind scout's.

 

 

 

 

Message Edited by furok on 01-07-2005 08:37 AM

[Dimidri]

I'm a Brigand.

 

First of all, it's very believable that the mage got low DPS. Talk to high level mages and they'll groan to you about how mobs resist just about everything and their DPS sinks more and more. Also, unlike melee, they don't have the non-skill melee damage to help. Lots of mages are switching jobs since theirs is broken at high levels.

 

Second, I'm not that high level yet, but my friend is, he's a Bruiser and he parsed the damage output of his party. At level 34 he was doing more damage than the Assassin many times (yes, Assassin) and the Assassin did know that the damage was being recorded. With Brigands, he even adds some DPS because he knows that Ruse doesn't parse, and he still usually beats them too.

 

At level 23, Bruisers are doing tons of damage. I noticed it, before it wasn't apparent, now it is. They ALWAYS have more attack than me, and I keep my equipment updated. All my skills are App4/Adept 1. My DPS isn't bad, but theirs is just too high for a tank class. My guild mate is a level 32 Brigand and she said that a Bruiser had outdamaged her while in playing defensively.

 

We talked about this, and we all pretty much agreed, SOE might just decide to nerf Bruiser damage output or worse; they might nerf your tanking ability =O *gaspscreamdie*

 

Haven't heard any official word of this at all though. Like SOE would really say "We're gonna nerf you" anyway.

[KariosKas]

shhhh... that's our little secret!  If we pallies get nerfed I'm gonna know who to blame for this one!

[EQ2Adam]

There's no reason to "nerf" Bruisers, all melee classes DPS basically the same at level 50.  Keep in mind scout poisons post 40 are still broken.  Once they fix that scout DPS will beat us.

[RogueS]

Jesus people this is pathetic....

 

Instead of complaining about Bruisers abilities and wanting them Nerfed you should be inviting them to your group.

 

 

 

 

First off:  They do awesome damage:  and can tank in a pinch.. SO what.  Congrats, awesome.  Brigand do nearly as much damage if not equal, could pinch tank but as a whole dont have the tanking abilities but have some cool utilities instead like group sneaks, and several debuffs.  Assasins are there for the big hits when in a pinch and mass damage is needed quickly and they still hold nearly even DPS with Bruisers and Brigs.  Wizzies.. saying they do ALOT less DPS is bull, Yes they dont have the single target monster hits, but they can chain cast spells that hit multiple mobs, etc.  I know playing with my Brig and taking on 3-4 Group Mobs with a couple wizzies in group by the times I turned to second mob he is alrady down to 80%, then I turn to third mob after second is dead and he is already at 60% etc  

 

Quit trying to get everyone else nerfed to make yourself more powerful.  Congratulate them on their class abilities, and make use of them in group. 

 

As currently structured by SOE:

 

Bruisers should NOT be nerfed.  They should play as a DPS class that can take a few hits when in trouble.

Brigands should NOT be nerfed they should be played as a steady DPS class with some utility

Assasins should NOT be nerfed they should be played as a DPS class giving Awesome burst damage (GREAT for taking out that [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] lose mob/add that went after your healer or or that extra mage doing mass damage to the group)

 

Wizzies Dont need any monster boost - as they add descent consitent damage against single and small group mobs but can really lay it on weakening/killing multiple/large group mobs.

 

 

Seems everyone just wants their class to be the uber class all other should worship.  For those of you like that, then just go re-roll your flavor of the month.

[RogueS]

People should be complaining about broken skills like poisons instead of trying to get other classes nerfed.

[Junaru]

---

RogueSun wrote:

Jesus people this is pathetic....

Instead of complaining about Bruisers abilities and wanting them Nerfed you should be inviting them to your group.

First off: They do awesome damage: and can tank in a pinch.. SO what. Congrats, awesome. Brigand do nearly as much damage if not equal, could pinch tank but as a whole dont have the tanking abilities but have some cool utilities instead like group sneaks, and several debuffs. Assasins are there for the big hits when in a pinch and mass damage is needed quickly and they still hold nearly even DPS with Bruisers and Brigs. Wizzies.. saying they do ALOT less DPS is bull, Yes they dont have the single target monster hits, but they can chain cast spells that hit multiple mobs, etc. I know playing with my Brig and taking on 3-4 Group Mobs with a couple wizzies in group by the times I turned to second mob he is alrady down to 80%, then I turn to third mob after second is dead and he is already at 60% etc

Quit trying to get everyone else nerfed to make yourself more powerful. Congratulate them on their class abilities, and make use of them in group.

As currently structured by SOE:

Bruisers should NOT be nerfed. They should play as a DPS class that can take a few hits when in trouble.

Brigands should NOT be nerfed they should be played as a steady DPS class with some utility

Assasins should NOT be nerfed they should be played as a DPS class giving Awesome burst damage (GREAT for taking out that [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] lose mob/add that went after your healer or or that extra mage doing mass damage to the group)

Wizzies Dont need any monster boost - as they add descent consitent damage against single and small group mobs but can really lay it on weakening/killing multiple/large group mobs.

Seems everyone just wants their class to be the uber class all other should worship. For those of you like that, then just go re-roll your flavor of the month.

---

You are truly clueless man.. Warlock turning Monk here and let me tell you Wizards/Warlocks are NOT on par where SOE wants them to be or should be. Thats in AOE or single target. Wizards/Warlocks should be HANDS DOWN the highest DPS class in the game either in single target or AoE. Instead they are at the bottom of the food chain. After the Big Patch Wizard AOE was dropped down to Warlock level which was completely fubarred. After crunching the numbers we found that AoE wasn't worth using unless you had 4 or more targets and how often does that happen, hardly ever?As for Bruisers getting nerfs. That might happen. But since most of the time Wizards/Warlocks seem to parse against scout DPS and Zerks (They do sick DPS even while tanking) maybe you guys will be over looked. SOE has made it very clear that some classes that are doing too much DPS will need to be nerfed while Wizards/Warlocks will be increased to bring things in line. Kind of sucks too cause I think I like my Monk more then my Warlock. BTW don't blame the Wizards/Warlocks they [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed cause clearly they were meant to be a DPS class and that just wasn't happening.

---

Moorgard wrote:

There have been questions recently about where wizards and warlocks are intended to fit in terms of damage output, as some players are concerned that these classes aren't fulfilling their role in this regard. I thought I'd address some of these questions in a general way, with the understanding that specific answers will have to wait until we have evaluated the damage output of all classes. This post does not promise any timeframe for when changes may occur.

Generally speaking, wizards and warlocks are intended to have the highest overall damage output, with the two subclasses being roughly equivalent to one another. If wizards and warlocks are not achieving that level of damage output now (and we agree there are cases that they are not), we will be adjusting class balance accordingly. In some situations this means other classes will be reduced in the amount of damage they do, while in other cases wizard and warlock damage may be upgraded. There is no one simple fix that will properly balance all classes, but rather it is an intricate system of weights and measures that takes time to adjust.

Having said the above, players need to realize that there may be instances where wizards and warlocks are not doing the highest damage. At certain levels another class may get a new ability that surpasses wizards and warlocks, because all classes don't get the same kinds of abilities at the same level (i.e. a scout may get a new high-damage art at a given level while a mage gets a new utility spell). In general, wizard/warlock damage will be highest, though there is no iron-clad guarantee that this will be the case in every possible situation.

Another factor is the quality of abilities being compared. A wizard/warlock should not assume that they can outdamage everyone based on the Apprentice I versions of their spells. For instance, if an assassin has a Master I level ability, a wizard/warlock may do less damage if using an Apprentice III version of a similar-level spell. Please remember that spell/art upgrades are a crucial part of every class' ultimate potential. No class should assume that with no effort or work on their part that they can be the "master" of anything, including damage output.

Also keep in mind that no matter how much work is put into class balance, it is likely that some people will never be satisfied with the results. This is partly because players often view their class with a combination of personal preference and emotional bias that causes them to say things like "this is what a wizard should be" when in fact a wizard is what each particular game makes of it.

Our goal is that all classes have fun and powerful abilities that make every class enjoyable to play. This is perhaps the most crucial aspect of game balance, far more important than parsing numbers or comparing stats.

---

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=4938

[Sauron]

---

EQ2Adam wrote:

After using a real time EQ2 DPS parser I have realized just how powerful we really are.

 

I'm a 40 bruiser.  Fighting in Rivervale my DPS ranges from 70-150, depending on the mob and which supporting classes you have in the group.  My level 40 brigand friend had trouble keeping up with my DPS, most of the time he couldn't beat me.  Keep in mind we are both equally experienced in our classes.  Yesterday our level 39 wizard had trouble breaking into the 60s and unless rangers or bards try really hard, they don't get much higher than about 40 damage per second.  Anyway, it was great when my brigand friend saw just how much DPS I put out PLUS I can tank.  With a full group, my brigand friend and I were making up 75% of the groups damage.  Just thought I'd share this info.

Message Edited by EQ2Adam on 12-21-2004 11:06 AM

---

yes i am a level 23 bruiser - and i take main tank over SK and guards all the time -- we hardly get hit (well i hunt with a fury and troub from guild - so i get agility bonuses out the wazoo) and the healers would rather i tank - sincei dont need healed as much.. whereas a guardian or SK get hit All the time....

And being the highest DPS in the group at anytime - even with assasins and wizards... well -- id rather have other bruisers than any caster (bruisers can get hit a few times, whereas casters get aggro and die in a cpl hits) --

Tho i love being a bruiser - I cant help but think we will be feeling the dreaded "nerf bat" soon -- ..

Heres to having a good time while it lasts tho

[D]

I can't think of any single ability or trait that makes us overpowered.

 

I think the fact that we have more skills that are working as intended than most classes makes us seem too powerful. :smileytongue:

 

Now, let's get us some new fun skills instead of turning us into POOsers.

[Ashdaren]

Never forgive that you're only :

 

1/3 of a tank toward AC

2/3 of tank considering HP¨

3/4 of tank considering the defensive skill that can be only up for 45 sec for 1 min recast

5/4 of tank regarding DPS

 

This make us a poor tanking class and barely good enough when greatly played  (tanking a little better than a druid without skills)

 

LVL 41 Bruiser here

 

 

[Gaige]

---

EQ2Adam wrote:

100+ being on solo mobs.  With the bard buffs, and haste, hitting 150 wasnt a problem.  On a yellow con ^^, trying my hardest, I averaged 80-90 DPS. 

---

Why would you even include your DPS on a solo mob?

[Gaige]

---

Trinnity wrote:

So are people honestly saying that we should be able to outdamage mage and scout classes that concentrate on pure dps, when we can also tank? My main is a bruiser, and I'm enjoying the class quite alot. However, we shouldn't be out damageing pure dps classes if everything else (weapon level, equal level scrolls, etc) is the same. I'd be rather annoyed if an assassin could out tank an equally geared member of the fighter archtypes just the same. I'm guessing those particular parses are a bit misleading, I'd have to see more extended parses on a controlled situation before I really knew the state of balance, but I stand firm by the fact that we shouldn't be outdamaging pure dps classes. Other warrior classes, yes. Rangers and wizards? No.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

You obviously don't play a bruiser. I'm a lvl 30 bruiser and I would like to see you tank a lvl 35 ^^. Healers just won't be able to keep up with the healing. Our AC is so god [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] low that even healers can tank better then us. I see my bruiser as a pure dps and a rescuer for when caster is under attack (use rescue skill to get agro and then feign if the tank can't get the agro of you because otherwise you are likely to die if only one healer in the group :p). Alot of people think we can tank but once they see us tank they start crying lol.

We can tank even cons and lower cons if its needed for a short time because there our parry, reposte etc... helps us alot but not against yellow and orange cons (don't even wanna mention red cons).

 

About the parser I have my doubts, I have a assasin friend with whom I play alot and allthough we never used a parser to check our dps, I don't think I can outdamage him (unless his high damage backstab fails :p).

I'm only level 30 so I don't know how it is at higher levels but as I see it now, we have nice dps and we are lousy tanks but I love my bruiser.

 

Pietje 30 bruiser on Butcherblock

 

---

How does it feel to play a class and not even know anything about it?

[Gaige]

---

Ashdaren wrote:

Never forgive that you're only :

 

1/3 of a tank toward AC ~ AC doesn't matter, agility def/deflection does.

2/3 of tank considering HP¨ ~ Same here, but lvl 50 brawlers can top 6k easy.

3/4 of tank considering the defensive skill that can be only up for 45 sec for 1 min recast

5/4 of tank regarding DPS ~ All fighters can get huge dps if they try.

 

This makes me a poor tanking bruiser and barely good enough when greatly played  (tanking a little better than a druid without skills)

 

LVL 41 Bruiser here

 

---

*fixt

[naczeln]

Well...many posters here are so blinded with their class they dont read other threads.If you have used a search engine and read some Moorgard's posts you'd know: 1. Bruisers are NOT intended to be dps.2. You are intended to outdamage other FIGHTER classes, but not to go even close to a scout or wizard.3. If you do outdamage scouts, prepare te be nerfed and I cant see any way around it.More, other fighter classes' dps will probably also be nerfed since it appears even very high level guardians can outdamage scouts. So maybe start to look for any clues from the devs instead of spreading fairytales and wishful thinking.You can flame me, I dont care. After all damage is revamped we will see who is wrong and who is right.

[Neec]

Bruisers are TOP DPS

 

At 50 my ranger can top at 180/190 DPS but the level 46 bruiser in group always OD's me  topping off for about 250 DPS.. 

 

(group is guardian, bruiser, Dirge, ranger (me) healer and mage)

 

The DPS on Bruisers can be sick.. but then i would rather see my skills from 40 -50 all working and poisons fixed before the nerf bat comes out for people..

[fur]

I would really like to see some data on scout dps after they fix 40+ poisons , also unless you didnt know strength is a big deal and it does matter =), seriously though a ogre bruiser goin all out strength will do 5>10 more damage on average with the same weapon speed/delay weapon compared to a ratonga, and auto attack is the biggest chunk of damage you do as a bruiser coming in well over 50% for me, so if your a agility focused scout youll be hittin less..way less / hit with your auto attack compared to that ogre bruiser standing beside you. Ive parsed alot of fights recently and as i said in a previous post, i have a same level as me ogre assassin in my static group, he focuses purely on strength and i cant compete with him (barbarian myself), cause his skills do equal >more then mine, his autoattack is equal >higher then mine and he uses poisons. He outdamages me every singel fight, and thats with me in dps mode not tanking .

 

So until expansions make you cap out all stats a ratling assassin will do "damage"  while  a ogre assassin will do  ´"DAMAGE".

So to everyone who said race didnt matter, well it does, especially until we can hit hardcaps. Agility based races dont get to pick strength as a racial , same as a strength based dont get to pick agility which makes a significant differance while equally equipped.

 

Auto attack ruleth!

Message Edited by furok on 01-27-2005 06:45 PM

[Darqz]

Again, I've posted this in the Assasin boards (where I know I belong) and in the SK boards (where I use to belong).  I've played both an assassin and a shadow knight.  Never once did I believe that as an Assassin I should be allowed to tank even though I get to wear better armor than monks.  Nor have I ever thought when I was on my SK that I should be doing damage great than that of a scout.  What I have thought is that Parsers are just a tool to give you an idea of what kind of damage is being done in the game.  There are so many factors that are not considered such as positioning by the scouts, poisons, procs off of weapons, damage of the weapon, speed of the weapon, a persons stats, a person's play style, a person's ability and how they have been updated, the list goes on.  Before I have you thinking this is about a "you need to know how to play your class" post its to an extent but please hear me out.  There are many styles to playing a class.  Some work for others and groups better, some dont.  To say a scout shouldn't jump into battle right away just so the tank can get agro will have 90% of you out there going "thats right" and the other 10% going "But if I do this I will never get agro".  The best of us have good nights and bad nights as well. 

With all that out of the way, the way I see it is that every Class got certain subsets that filled certain roles.  You had some roles that were inteded to be pure damage with little else to offer.  You had some that were intended to be pure support, while others would fill other roles.  Does that mean a bruiser should get to be the highest DPS for the fighter class?  Yes if that is what SOE intended (and frankly thats kinda what I believe).  You guys give up plate armor to do some heavy damage.  Does that mean you should take heavy damage when you get hit.  Yes, but thats just my opinion.  You have great avoidance and while skills such as parry and dodge are your main defenses and Agility is king not AC.  You should never take the same damage as a plate wearing class such as Gaurdians take.  Before you start thinking I'm off subject, I'm not.. just hear me out.  Again I've seen some Bruisers take less damage when they get hit than some plate tanks.  This had mainly to do with them having better armor.  Good for those bruisers.  They put thier time in to get thier armor up.  I've also seen some bruisers fall after 2 hits.  Just part of the game.  Just the same way I've seen some SK out damage a bruiser.  They invested into better skills.  Most of the time though you guys are the ones that we should look for when we need a good tank and some major dps.  Thats your role.  You get FD and a heal which gives you a big advantage over other tanks.  Granted your taunts don't match that of a gaurdian, and you can't do the aes of a zerker, but your abilites give you a defining role.  As for those scouts out there that think I'm not on thier side, sorry.  Its our job to make sure we do our job correctly.  Yes we get to disarm traps and spin HOs (and yes I also believe they need to look into both of these because traps drop alot less than they should to make a scout worth while and I don't know many groups that have HOs down pat.)  Yes I know some groups out there do HOs in thier sleep, but I haven't grouped with many groups that plan on doing HOs for every fight unless they happen to come up while they are barraging buttons.  Scouts get escape as well so we shouldn't complain because alot of groups would prefer to live and start the zone over than to die and hope for an escape. 

 

Again folks these are my opinions.  Not word of SOE or any other players.  My honest opinion is that there are alot of things that are broken, but we should focus on trying to fix them instead of competing to see who we can get nerfed.  I would honestly like to see Mages out damage all classes (no I don't play mages but to me it makes sense) then scouts then fighters and finally clerics.  Regardless of what subclass you play.  I also don't want to see people that have invested alot of time in a class and defined a role for themself get hit just because others have class envy.  Thats just not right.  I recently came across this post while I was reading in the Assassin's page.

 

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=40&message.id=2332

 

This basically shows a troubie and an assassin replacing you guys.  Now I know for a fact there are some Bruisers in there saying that Assassin's should get thier defensive skills nerfed because if this gets out then an assassin can fill your guys role.  He is right except he is doing the same thing to assassin's what they want to see done to you.  Scouts would love to see Bruisers get nerfed because they can go back to being king of DPS for melee and I'm sure if you read that post you'll want to see something done to the assassin's defensive abilities because that poses a threat to you.  However think about this.  An assassin by himself could never pull this off.  He would need to have a troubie helping him to give him that huge Agil boost.  The same troubie you guys could use to give yourselves a HUGE agility boost and become next to invicible. 

 

To end this long and winded post I would like to suggest a few ways of helping the classes along without breaking them.

1.) Give mages a huge boost to damage and fix some of thier timers

2.) Adjust the delays and power regulations of Scout classes to allow them the ability to do more damage (not thier defensive skills though).  Letting a scout do more damage means that they do get to be better at DPS but if they pull agro off they better be able to take a hit and hope the Fighter class can save them.  This would eventually lead to people finding that balance and learning to work together.  Hell even fixing the poisons so they do more damage would work.  The resist rates are insane.

3.) Leave bruisers right where they are.  They don't need to be fixed.  If anything allow them to have a few better group utilities or increase thier taunting.  DPS is what allows a Bruiser to get agro but they won't be able to keep it long if a mage is nukeing 4k shots.  Perhaps allow a skill in thier ability list to do a group FD or a punch that does medium damage and could possibly debuff a creature or [Removed for Content] a mob.

 

Sorry to take up so much room in your section but I honestly want you all to think about it before a nerf bat gets swung for no reason. 

Good luck to you all and I hope to group with some of you soon.

 

[DVang]

Well, I haven't used a parser to calculate my DPS.

However, I do have a 24 DE Brigand and a 21 Ogre Bruiser.

 

With the Brigand, while my individual weapon hits don't do a whole lot of damage (although it adds up, and poison procs are nice too)... If I am situated behind a mob I can constantly click through about 5-6 CAs and do about 40-120 damage (depending on CA) with each click, and barely using any power.  I don't know how long it takes, but I'm betting it's close to a click per second or so (some CAs are clicked more than others, since they have a short recast).  Add this in to the 10-20 per weapon strike I do, and any poison proc going.  I way outdamage my bruiser, even when my brigand was 21. 

 

My Bruiser does good constant damage with his two ashwood batons (more than my Brigand).  His CAs seem weak compared to my Brigand's, with Thrust kick and Flying kick only doing about 40 max.  Rapid strikes is great when all 4 hit, and bruising strike does tremendous damage, almost as good as the high end Brigand CAs (about 100 max).  However, when I tank I have to be more concerned with taunting and keeping aggro, than trying to spam CAs for damage, especially with multiple-mob groups.  If you don't group taunt often, any mob you're not striking directly will head over to the healer or the mage.

 

So... while I'm sure Bruisers can do more dps than scouts with their autoattack, I highly doubt overall dps is greater when CAs are factored in.

 

++

 

FYI.  My bruiser can tank just fine.  Perhaps it gets worse at higher levels, I don't know.  But up through 21 I haven't had any problems tanking mobs up to 25/26.  I've had clerics and druids as my main healer and never had a problem tanking.  Sure, I might get hurt more than a guardian when a mob hits me.  You know what I noticed.  I see an awful lot of "blocked" "parried" and "misses" with my bruiser, compared to my 28 guardian friend when he tanks.  I get hit a *lot* less often, so the overall effect seems to be about the same.

 

My brigand can't tank, and can barely take any hits even though he's wearing medium armor and has a really high Agi.