Homicidal Overnuking Wizards...Aag!

[Quind]

This is just a bit of a rant, so if you're not into that sort of thing, just pass on by.  I really mean no harm by it.  That said...GAAAAAH.  After sucking the life out of all the quest lines we could find and comfortably duo, my roommate and I took our toons lfg for the third time in 67 levels.  I figured that there are enough tanks out there, and people wanting to do EoF instances that we could find someone to mt and sort of show me the way of things in the new expansion.  Was never able to get into the guild groups doing areas, and I like to see an area at least once before having to keep chainpulls up for a group that's done something so much it's second nature.  Our last experience had its good points, like zipping through Miragul's (Yes, it was that long ago) with little pain when it was yellow to orange for most of the group, and its bad points, like homicidal overnuking wizards stealing aggro in perma and making things a lot harder than they needed to be.  Sadly, there were no tanks interested.  We got a lot of squishies thinking it would be a GREAT idea though so...we tried it.  Went to Acad because we'd never been, and neither had our necro, and he could have badly used some upgrades (Which he got.  Hee.).  I guess the problem was that we had a good healer and the place was mostly blue and green, and that I was being overly cautious with pulls because I had no idea what things did, but the wizard seemed to be making a point of grabbing aggro and deciding it was his turn to tank.  This is WITH Harl's, which I usually tank without pretty well.  We cleared the place, after a fairly tense run with D'Vinn because of bouncing aggro (I swear I was taunting, guys.  Soz.), and moved on to Kaladim.The healer left, probably because of my rather less than stellar performance as mt, and we got a replacement.  She was cool, she knew the lay of the land and was willing to accept "this may go slowly, because I really don't know these areas at all."  Our ill went ld and we got a defiler who'd never done much in EOF either.  So we went to Kaladim, figuring some named AA and possible drops might come our way.  (Great healers, both of them.  And I forgot to friend them cos I'm a [Removed for Content] like that.)  I figured things might be at least dangerous enough for people to let me take point on pulls, but our wizard (who I will admit was pretty knowledgable about the area, having done a few runs of the place with his guild, I think) starts running off without us.  Named checks, I think, or possibly glowies.  I lost track.  I needed an afk, and said so in group, figuring we'd be safe since we had just cleared the stuff around us, but as I get up I see things in camp.  Dunno who pulled, or why, but I ended up FDing, which only avoided wiping two of us because of failed rolls or people standing right back up.  By the time things situated themselves, we had repops, so we ended up taking the wipe anyway.And then RL called, so I missed whatever came next.How's it done?  How can I keep aggro off of a homicidal overnuking wizard?  When I'm in groups, should I assume that most of them don't expect me to be cycling targets, and give a "welcome to my group, this is how I keep aggro" speech?  If so, I'm making macros.  Big macros.  And on a completley unrelated side note, what broker-bought uber should I be looking at to deal with the mit lag from my mastercrafted?  Over the past few levels I dropped from 40+mit into the thirties, and it's hurting me badly.  Most of the treasured gear I've seen has lower mit than my current, so the idea of 65+ treasured having at least better mit than MC went right out the window.  Working on relic, but I've gotta wait for the next public Labs farm (looking for a slightly more raid-focused guild atm).  I've seen some stuff on the broker that's just lovely, the the fear-drenched training tunic, but it's like 65p and if I'm spending that much...hell.  I'll buy the masters of coiling serpent and black widow stance that have been rotting on the broker for 30-36p for a month.  It's gonna take a lot of farming runs to get that much cash, anyway.And on another random tangent, and I'm sorry this isn't being more coherent- my rants never are- is running Everburning in a group okay?  I've been working on my hp regen, but it still tanks my in-combat.  With my tendency to crunch when something decides to crit or proc, I try not to make healers' lives any harder.  That said, I have an easier time holding aggro when I'm full hasted and in spider than in defensive with it down.Okay.  Here's a bucket of fresh fish I stole from the beach in Loping.  Feel free to pelt me with them now.

[Bladewind]

I usually have no problem with the single target damage dealers so long as they target through me.  The hate proc takes care of the rest.  All of my hate gen abilities are master 1/2, though.

As far as gear goes, check out the stickied thread at the top of this forum.  It has a good chunk of the legendary and fabled gear available in t7 (almost all of the kos stuff and some of the eof stuff) along with the mob that drops it or the quest that gives it.  The rewards from the claymore series in PoA are particlularly good for tanks, including many pieces of jewelry that give phys mit bonuses.  In addition, the light and dark chitin rings that the devourer drops are both great for tanks.  The legendary class sets in eof are great as well.  The pieces drop off of zone bosses.  Off the top of my head: boots are from Obelisk of Blight, Shoulders (tradable) from the butler in MM Catacombs, wristguards from Valdoon, and gloves (tradable) are from the avatar in Kaladim.

[Ryuugekitai]

Hello

There are some nice legendary pieces of equipment that drop for Monks in KOS. Plus the stuff from the Claymore Questline is great (as soon as you get out of Sanctum).
There is also a legendary set for monks in T7 EOF, but I never got it (cause my guild sux ^^)

I often use everburning while tanking, and keep spider instead of serpent if the healer can take it (just ask him )
everburning is definitly better for holding aggro and procing (I have a mana regen proc on 1 of my weapons, so procing is rather important ^^)

As for circling mobs ... I often don't do it. I only do it if the groupe is ae oriented. If not, I ae taunt and engage with our ae + magic proc buff and it holds all right. If I see the mobs tend to go for the reste of the groupe I keep my taunts for the mobs I'm not hitting (juste doing quick target swaping) and it usualy works quite well.
If things realy get ugly, I circle all the way through the targets, and ask for the healer not to heal the wizzard : he tends to slow the dps down soon enough ^^
No, I'm kidding, just tell the wizz to take it easy, if he's not stupid he'll do it.

[RoMaJo]

Single Target, or groups that you are using your group aoe taunt as soon as it's up...as well as your aoe swing and dragonbreath shoudl be enough to keep a wizard at bay.

 

if it's a warlock...you just can't keep aggro

 

get a nice "welcome to my group, here's how this is going to work" speech ready.

 

 

 

[uux]

[Nacoa]

Since I don't know how much tanking experience you have, my advice may be something you already know.  I'm posting it anyway, to help any new tanks.Tip number 1:Upgrade every taunt skill as high as you can afford.  Apprentice IV is your absolute minimum, and it sucks.  You really should get all of them to at least Adept III.  It makes a _HUGE_ difference.Tip number 2:Forget about your damage skills.  Your damage and debuffs are nothing compared to the DPS and support classes.  You're there to be the meatshield.  Your should be using your taunt abilities every single time they're ready.  The only time you should hit any other skill is if your taunts are refreshing.  And I'm not being figurative here.  Taunt or autoattack.Tip number 3:Learn the term "Main assist", aka "MA".  Use it.  Love it.  Teach everyone the term, it'll make the game better.Pick a DPS toon (or an OT) that is run by a player you trust.  They become the "Main assist".  Everyone kills whoever the MA has targeted.  The only person who should ever target you are the healers...and they should switch to the MA if they're going to use a nuke.You pull a group of mobs, and hit the AoE taunt.  MA picks a mob from the group and starts laying in to him.  You taunt the various members of the group as necessary.  (IIRC the brawler 'taunting stance' only triggers when you damage the mob.  Guardians 'taunting stance' triggers whenever the mob hits the guardian which makes keeping group agro a lot easier for Guards)The idea is as the tank you'll be switching targets frequently.  You want all of the group's damage going to one target.  Splitting target choice from tanking is how you acomplish this.My brother-in-law and I dual box a group.  I play a guardian and a wizard, he a dirge and warden.  My guardian's the MT, the dirge is the MA.  I always chain-nuke the wizard, and never lose agro to her.In our previous generation of characters, we got a little bored during one camp and decided to see if I could lose agro.  The only toon that was able to do it was the warden, by chain-casting every heal (which is kinda silly with HoTs).Fact is, if the players in your group have to throttle their damage, then you need to do better at taunting.

[xKHONSx]

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Nacoa wrote:

Tip number 2:
Forget about your damage skills.  Your damage and debuffs are nothing compared to the DPS and support classes.  You're there to be the meatshield.  Your should be using your taunt abilities every single time they're ready.  The only time you should hit any other skill is if your taunts are refreshing.  And I'm not being figurative here.  Taunt or autoattack.

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Actually I don't entirely agree with this.  This is one of those situations where you have to feel out how much you need to taunt.  After playing your monk to end game you should have a good idea of what you can and can't do based on gear/spell quality.  In most cases I only use the ae and single target taunts once per encounter.  I mainly do dps even as a tank in the group.

I'm not saying that spamming taunts is wrong, but I have never found the need to do so.  I've only had my monk for about four or five months now, so I'm no expert, but quite often I get compliments about how well I did tanking.  I'm on Najena as well so if you want to discuss tactics and whatnot I have no problem sharing my ideas with you (This is directed at Kirashin of course).  Feel free to send Khons a tell.  I'm still going to share how I tank just in case others may get something useful out of this, or maybe someone may have a way to tweak my methods and make me more efficient.  I have no problem with suggestions if anyone has any.

 

This is how I tank.......

Well, first of all, while leveling up I always kept my CA's at adept 3 (I'm an alchemist so that was easy enough), but my gear was never higher than mastercrafted.  Even right now I only have legendary gear on me with only a couple of fabled pieces.  I'm not much of a raider so this is as good as my gear is ever going to get, but after grouping with a multitude of terrible tanks I realized that gear doesn't mean everything.  Knowledge of your class > gear.  I tank the same way now as I did with only mastercrafted gear.  Of course it's quite a bit easier now with legendary gear and a bunch of masters, but my tactics are still the same.

If I have two healers in the group I'm in offensive stance with Everburning Blaze running.  Only on a rare occasion will I change stances or kill EB with two healers in the group.  If there is only one healer in the group I try to feel out what the healer is capable of, but about 90% of the time I'm still in offensive stance with EB running.  If I need to stance dance I do.  I'll use defensive stance or the balanced stance on tougher nameds.  I'll also stance dance if we get an add, but if you cleanly pull mobs and move back a bit from where you pulled from then adds are rarely a problem. 

I use Spirit like Mountain religiously (all you have to do is click it off if/when the fight ends before 30s are up).  I also use Will of the Heavens religiously as I'm constantly dispelling some hostile affect on myself.  Since Outward Calm has such a short recast that should be used constantly as well.  If things get really bad we have Tsunami, Heal and Fall of the Phoenix if all else fails.  All of these things allow me to be more of a dps'er than a tank and it's rare that I have problems tanking from offensive stance.

 

3 or more mobs:

If it's a group of three or more mobs I'll cast Storming Palm as I go pull, body pull (I've gotten into the habit of body pulling everything no matter how safe it looks), pull back just a bit to where it's safe, taunt them with Challenge, hit them with Crescent Strike (plus the extra damage from Storming Palm), hit them with Dragonbreath, then just dps and watch them fall.  Using this method I can generally keep aggro even with a Warlock or Conjuror going AE crazy.  Even if mobs do peel off onto one of the squishies the mobs don't last long with that much AE action going on.

 

2 mobs:

I'll cast Storming Palm, body pull, pull back, taunt the one I have targetted with Infuriating Tranquility on the way back, taunt them both with Challenge, hit them with Crescent Strike (plus damage from SP) and hit them with Dragonbreath.  I tend to switch targets for a split second to hit the other mob with a taunt and Soaring Dragon and then switch back.  I literally target the mob, hit those two keys, and then switch back in less than half a second.  It's possible that someone has a big damage spell queued up but it rarely causes problems even if it does land on the other mob.  If you switch targets and get your taunt and CA off lightning fast you'll rarely have problems.  Even if the other mob does aggro onto the big spike damage dealers then you just kill that mob first.  (This is where a MA would be a good idea, but I've never had issues switching targets as long as it was extremely fast).

 

1 mob:

I'll cast Storming Palm, body pull, taunt it with Challenge first (This way it refreshes sooner just in case grouped mobs are ahead), taunt it with Infuriating Tranquility and then just dps it to death.

 

If you go crazy chain pulling like I do then Storming Palm, Crescent Strike, Dragonbreath and Challenge aren't going to be refreshed every fight, so you just have to improvise.  I guess this is more of a loose guide as to how I tank.

 

Like I said I'm no expert, but maybe something in here will be useful to someone.  As long as you keep aggro there really isn't a right or wrong way to tanking.  I prefer to dps-tank and kill mobs fast whereas Nacoa prefers the traditional tank role of spamming taunts.  Even while tanking for groups I still do a lot of damage and sometimes out-parse some traditional dps classes.  Both ways work, but it's up to you to figure out what works for you.

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

Yeah, you are going to get the "don't bother with DPS skills" from a Guardian perspective, because they ARE inferior on that kind of toon.Brawlers however, have less "+threat" abilities, and an inferior "proc hate" ability, so we do require added work to hold similar aggro to a Guardian.I play a Bruiser, so I don't know specific Combat Arts for Monks off the top of my head, but a while back I did a point-by-point comparison and noticed that a lot of the "big damage" abilities are similar.I would definately suggest getting your Taunts at Adept 3 or Master 1 as that will definately help a ton... they SHOULD be  the priority for a person wanting to Tank.For Brawlers though, I would definately suggest upgrading a couple of the larger attacks and your AoE ability. These will help with aggro control if you intersperse them with taunts and autoattack.As a Bruiser, for most groups I can hold aggro simply by taunting at the start and DPSing. In aggro hog situations, I'll start using taunts primarily and spam my CAs in between. Being that I don't have 100%+ haste as a Bruiser, I use CAs more than a Monk would, but a Monk should definately be using some if they want to keep aggro.

[Caliga]

My main is a ranger so when I group with Brawlers I realize I need to count to five before I press a button.  Any other tank and I could sniper shot as the guy pulls and I still wouldn't get arggo.   I play a monk so I know how it is.  But I learned how it is by accidently stealing arggo from a monk and just assuming he wasn't taunting because I could push way higher damage CAs with other tanks and not steal arggo.  So maybe the wizard simply hadn't had much experience with a monk being MT.  I know I can count on one hand the number of times I've had a monk as main tank even in a PUG.  Did anyone bother to explain about monk taunts and ask the wizard to wait a moment before laying it down?

[Jessyme]

I feel your pain Quind! 

I am primarily a MT monk.  If this is the path you want to follow, then there are a few things that really help:

1) As others have said, upgrade your taunts and AE/PBAoE spells as soon as you can.  If taunt is a Master II choice, take it unless you already have it at Master I. 

2) Consider taking the Wisdom line to the end to get an amazing group aggro combat art (think it is called Crane Flock, but it is late and the mind is a bit fuzzy).  It allows you to hit all targets in range 100% of the time on auto attack for something like 12 seconds.  It is FANTASTIC for holding group aggro, especially in conjunction with at speedy weapon,  Dragon Advance and Shocking Hands. (Take THAT aggro stealing Warlock scum!  Kidding!) But it does work. Long 5 minute refresh though, so save for when you really need it if you know the zone and mobs. 

3) Get a speedy two handed staff. I currently use an Ancient Velium Stave which has a delay of 2 seconds so it swings (and hopefully hits!) often.  This helps Dragon Advance to trigger more often, and it allows me to use the two AE attacks in the Wisdom line all the time.

4)  In the new AA's, there is one that refreshes your single taunt really quickly.  I have 5 points in it and that taunt is almost always up.   Seriously consider upgrading this one as the more often you can taunt, the easier it is to get and keep aggro. 

5)  Taunt taunt taunt!  I find that I need to do this all the time if I have folks trying to steal aggro.  If it is a question of taunt or damage, go for taunt.  If you are holding aggro fine, mix it up.  But never ignore your taunts. And never spam CA's so much that you run out of power and cannot taunt.  If it is going to be a long fight, choose your CA's carefully, conserve mana, and spam those taunts.  As MT you are there to hold aggro first and foremost; damage is secondary.   I cannot imagine taunting once and stopping unless it is a weak mob that will be dead in 10 seconds.  And don't forget you have Rescue (I used to forget I had that all the time.)

6)  If you are using your taunts and AE/PBAoE skills to hold aggro and it is not working, have a chat with the suicidal cloth wearer (some delight in stealing aggro, I swear!).  If they are playing their class right then they should NOT be taking your aggro.  I play a 70 conjuror as well, and it is my job to pay attention and to not take aggro.  I play with certain tanks quite often who are very good, and I know that if I am getting aggro, it is my fault, not theirs. (Honestly, if I really want to take aggro as a conjuror, I can almost always do it. But I should NOT be doing so.  Getting aggro splits healing , gets me killed, loses DPS and possibly causes group/raid to wipe) .  Note: I also play an Inquisitor, and as such my job is to keep the MT standing.  If the cloth wearer is taking aggro, I will heal them then I ask them to tone it down, delay 5-10 seconds after pull before nuking, etc.  If they fail to listen and steal aggro after that, I will let them die and I will tell them why.  We all have our roles to play, and the cloth wearer should know theirs. It is not always the MT's fault. 

 

Getting very sleepy, but hope this helps *smiles*

Quijana

[Deathspell]

Aggro control is definately group effort.And a good group is always with people who know what to do and when to do.Every group is different and the trick is to adjust accordingly.I have a Warlock and if the tank is not as skilled or geared up, then I play accordingly.Aside from AE spells, there's always someone not assisting the tank, summoners are very good at this by putting their pet on another mob. It's very sad that people go through 7 tiers and still don't know or don't want to assist the tank.What you do is, you don't care about people that don't listen. But if someone is not assisting me and pulls aggro then I don't bother getting it back and I sincerely hope he dies.I've seen healers do the same thing when someone just keeps pulling aggro time after time.They'll either settle down or get very [Removed for Content] and leave the group. Either way is fine with me tho.

[Anjin]

A properly geared/spelled up wizzie should always be able to pull aggro from a monk (if they want to!) unless they have a serious threat reducer in the group.  It's so easy to say this or that is the case, but when it comes down to the crunch, keeping aggro is invariably reliant upon the following:

ST or AE focussed group DPS
Melee or Caster threat reduction
Enhancements to tank DPS
Playing skill of group members
Equipment/CA/Spell quality of group members
Effective assisting

Which as you can see offers a tremendous number of variables.  It's a bit like looking at a raid encounter parse and thinking that it gives a true picture of that particular encounter and the quality of the DPS etc.  It doesn't.  Until you know exactly what the group setup was, what buffs were placed on who etc you can't make a valid judgement.

To the person that said about just taunting and auto attacking - you're worng there.  As long as our CA's don't interfere with the hit cycle of our autoattacks, they should always be used.  No tank class should ever rely on taunts for aggro control as taunts get resisted.

[SouthernAvenger]

I very rarely have a problem holding agro anymore. Its a combination of gear,aa's, and experince tanking mobs is all.Generally when im asked to tank i use Black Widow Stance when there is one healer in the group. I'll start of with both my taunts master1/ master 2 then i'll steadily use my CA's, kick in a taunt or so every so often. I seem to hold agro very well this way. Generally if we arn't mezzing the adds i'll throw in my aoe's right a way as well to grab that little bit of extra agro. I also use Crane Twirl that procs a few times in a fight just for that bit of xtra dmg. Very rarely will the agro transfer, if it does i always have my rescue. Learn what each one of ur CA's do and use them to your advantage,nock em down, w/e.  You will learn differnt techniques to hold agro depending on what classes are in your group. Ask to tank whenever possible, i hate it when im on my alts and there's a monk in my group who says he can't tank. Thats b.s, if its not epic you can tank it. O one last thing.... once you get tsunami.... it is your bestfriend.

[Quind]

Mog, I wasn't expecting this many replies to my little primal scream up there.  You guys rock!It's been a while since I checked out the gear thread here, and I think you're right.  Time for another visit, to get my shopping list ready.  Then time to go farm nameds in SoS so I can afford things.Most of my core abilities, at the moment, are at least adept 3.  I have some adept 1s, but those are mostly attacks that I use less frequently than others.  Just dinged 69 last night, and most of my tanking experience is for 2-4 people, and before a few days ago I rarely found myself tanking for strangers.  I do a lot of body pulling, and absolutely love the storming palm + crescent + dragonbreath combo.  But as has been said- with chainpulls those aren't always up.  *sniff*  I've thought about getting the EoF aas that reduce their recast, but I don't think that a range increase would be good on blue AEs.  Especially not with my bad habit of aeing in hallways.  Really have to get over that one.  As for my gear, well...that's what EQ2players is for.  ^^I used to tank religiously in serpent, but recently started going spider or even offensive unless the fecal matter was really hitting the rotating blades, or I'm doing something I shouldn't be.  Tsunami is my dark mistress, and I make love to the spirit of the mountain line every night.  Use the other toggle a little less often, but got some mileage out of it last night in Crypt when things got too hairy for just the zerk.  (By the by, if any of you guys have suggestions about that, I'm all ears.  That was my first time in the instance, and it looks like someplace that needs a little more strategy than run in, whack nameds, run out.   We didn't finish it.)I've seriously thought about respeccing wis to get crane flock, but I usually get better returns from my current duel wield setup (Twin Calamities/Ancient Velium Claws).  Then again, my staff's an awakened thingy battlemace, which is great for when I'm duoing white and yellow arrows-up with the dirge, but a little too slow for wanting to tank and still hold aggro.  And with a healer in group, the regen vi and minor heal proc don't matter so much. Really though.  You guys rock.  Thanks for all the suggestions.  Good infos up there, even if a lot of it is stuff I'd already heard/been told.  Refreshers are good, and maybe someone newer to the brawler tanking scene will get some use out of it too.  Raaaaawr!

[Meleania]

I play a 60 monk and a 50 guardian, the other day with my guardian in CT I had a wiz and warlock in my grp, whenever one of them got aggro it was pretty much impossible to get it back, even with my Adept III+ taunts

[JudyJudy]

Some awesome advice here for monks desiring the MT role.  :smileyhappy:  So I'll not repeat what these awesome monks have advised but will say this:  We can tank any heroic content.  Don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

 

Also, practice.  Some will tell you that tanking is not a skill and is very easy - this is all based on perception and pride.  We've got one rescue taunt, one main taunt, one encounter taunt, one true AoE, one frontal DoT AoE, and a proc taunt - use them along with your big hitting CA's and time them well, learn them and try new ways of incorporating them with your CA's.  When used correctly, even the most trigger happy wizzy will be surprised with your agro holding ability.  :smileywink:

 

Lastly, if tanking is something you enjoy - going down the Awareness line in the EoF AA lines is a must.  Reduced casting timers and increased taunt % is a must for any tanking monk.  I often MA for our raids and these skills by far have helped me tremendously.  I'm thinking once I max out my Awareness line, I'll go for combination for the extra 400 3x tick to hold agro.  That's garaunteed damaged there.  Remember, 1pt damage = 1pt threat.

 

Good luck!

[Jessyme]

I was eyeballing the combination line too.  Once you get it, please let us know what you think of it.  I am still on the early part of the taunt section. 

 

And as said above, practice is truly the key. 

(And this is for folks who have not really tried tanking with their monks yet.)

The first few times I tanked were flat out scary for me.  People had been telling me that monks were not tanks. I would join pick-up groups and be told that I was not there to tank, that they were looking for a "real" tank.   But as JudyJudy said, we can tank any heroic content in the game.  Believe it, and get out there and try it.  Ask the group to let you try tanking, even if a plate tank is present. Even if it is just a few pulls.  Build your confidence up.  You will be surprised at how effective you are.  Oh, and remember to turn the mob *grin*  Folks love tanks who do that. 

 

Also, learn what CA combinations work most effectively.

For example, I am a huge fan of mixing the Shocking Hand line with my AE's.  I also like to use Shocking Hand (think it is called Storming Palm at my current level),  a stun/knockdown, and then Flailing Centipede which (I believe) raises the likelihood that all 5 attacks will land (lots of single target hate in a hurry).  But I never, ever forget my taunts. 

 

And a clarification:  I never just taunt and autoattack unless I am out of power- that is rare (love those chanters!)  But I know as a young monk I used to use every CA I had the second they refreshed, burning though my power pool in a hurry, leaving myself with little power to do much of anything else including taunt.  Taunts are critical, and I have seen too many tanks lose aggro because they fail to taunt. A single taunt will almost always generate more hate then any single CA, assuming both land.  If it comes down to holding aggro via DPS alone, a monk will lose that contest in a hurry unless the DPS in the group is seriously slacking. 

 

And love those HO's.  Don't forget to use them. 

 

Quijana

 

 

[Nacoa]

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Meleania wrote:I play a 60 monk and a 50 guardian, the other day with my guardian in CT I had a wiz and warlock in my grp, whenever one of them got aggro it was pretty much impossible to get it back, even with my Adept III+ taunts

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Yeah, this is where the automatic taunt-on-hit of a brawler works better.  The automatic taunt-when-hit that warriors get is nice for keeping agro, but makes it harder to get it back.As to the various comments by other posters on my previous "taunt-or-autoattack" comment, I said that because of the experience level of the tank I was writing for.  Someone who is new to tanking needs to taunt every time it's available and not think about their DPS.  With experience, the tank can start breaking the "rules" because they know when they can safely do so.But I want to emphasize again that if you're a new tank, you REALLY want to use a MA when fighting groups.  You're busy enough managing agro and adds, you don't need to think about what needs to die first.

[Quind]

I hadn't thought of going completely through the awareness line for EoF.  I mostly went body, with the encounter taunt and martial order ehancement from awareness.  (Working on the single-target enhance...trying to figure out what to drop so I can max that.)  The recast decrease on tsunami and both cure AAs just seemed too good to pass up to me.  Especially when duoing without a curer other than me, they can be a godsend.  Master's evasion...eh.  It's in my cooldowns-to-watch pool, along with my taunts and knockdowns.  I can see how combos would be useful for keeping aggro, since a lot of the cooldowns that get enhanced are our harder-hitting CAs that make for nice backup taunts.Finally got seventy the other night, so now that the grind of doom is over I should have some time to sit down and actually compile all of this info into something of an FAQ or guide.  We'll see.  You guys have been a huge help over the past couple months.  Just wanted to let yas know that.

[Ryuugekitai]

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JudyJudy wrote:

We can tank any heroic content.  Don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

 

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Well I still haven't been able to tank Doomlord Septimus down in HoF. The guy hit me 4 times through tsunami for 1600 to 4000 damage (with 50% mit and 65% avoid ... not that avoid matters since I hat tsunami) and it hurted a lot. Actualy his autoattack is the only thing that tsunami reposted.

Anyone tanked that guy lately ? (after LU 30 that is)

But otherwise that is true, I've tanked everything else.

[xKHONSx]

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Ryuugekitai wrote:

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JudyJudy wrote:

We can tank any heroic content.  Don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

 

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Well I still haven't been able to tank Doomlord Septimus down in HoF. The guy hit me 4 times through tsunami for 1600 to 4000 damage (with 50% mit and 65% avoid ... not that avoid matters since I hat tsunami) and it hurted a lot. Actualy his autoattack is the only thing that tsunami reposted.

Anyone tanked that guy lately ? (after LU 30 that is)

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I tanked him about 2 weeks ago.  He did hit me hard and I was down to about 15% health pretty early on, but once the Templar got caught up on heals (I did self heal too, of course) we were fine.  We only had a 68 Templar and a Conjuror who happened to have Animist's Transference (about a 800pt heal once every 30s), but that was about it on the healing front.

[Anjin]

I'm happy that we can tank any Heroic content.  There is still no doubt in my mind that we are gimped as far as aggro is concerned.  Think about it - we have to use out mid stance for tanking to ensure we can actually a) hit the target and b) hit it more often.  I love the monk class, but I'm fed up with people wearing rose tinted glasses saying everything is fine when our defensive stance can't be realistically used!

Considering that to get the most aggro we have to cycle through targets, we require people assisting properly within a group (i.e. using /assist).  The problem with us cycling is that if there is a big single target nuker in the group, they will take aggro from the initial target because the tank is cycling though.  I have a lvl 70 berseker (5% fabled) and he can hold aggro far better than my Monk (80% fabled) and tbh, is a far more enjoyable tank because of that.

Lastly, if think you'll find a vast difference between the dps output of a wizzie/warlock in raid gear/masters than a legendary geared/adept3's. The difference is far greater than the aggro holding abilities of a monk in the two categories.

In my last post I mentioned that things are very situational and just because 1 person might not have a problem, it certainly doesn't mean it's the same with others.  Do you have a Wizzie that gives it all?  Do you have have a dirge/troubador/coercer in the group?  All these will, of course, affect any tank, but it'll affect a brawler more than others.

 

Message Edited by Herbster on 01-22-2007 04:51 PM

[Anjin]

Erm, although there is a MA, the MA should really have 2 buttons, 1st to assist the Tank and the 2nd to tell the group to assist him/her.  The tank should decide who is going to die 1st by focussing on that target when each assist call is made. 

[Nacoa]

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Herbster wrote:

Erm, although there is a MA, the MA should really have 2 buttons, 1st to assist the Tank and the 2nd to tell the group to assist him/her.  The tank should decide who is going to die 1st by focussing on that target when each assist call is made. 

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Personally, I run it the opposite way.  I assist the MA to put most of my taunting on their target, and tab around as needed to hold agro.  There's no particular reason for the tank to select who dies first.

[JudyJudy]

I agree Herbster.  Particularly how it affects the brawler most.  However, because everything is situational - perception on how people play the same class different ways will effect how we look at it.

 

There have been countless unbalances, problems or disagreements on what fixes a class problem.  Throughout my time here, I've found that adaptation to the various changes SOE instills upon our class to be the most effective means of being a viable tank.  Does that mean to accept it?  No way.  Great wars have been waged for every class.  :smileywink:

 

But I do see your point, and understand your frustration.

 

As an MA - I do a little more than direct what the MT wants to kill and make the announcement.  If the MT goes down, I rescue - hold agro until he's back up, in which case is usually pretty quick but most of the time I keep the enounter until the fight is over with no issues of agro.  I also Off-tank many of the extras we get with namers taking the full brunt of their damage.

 

So in my perspective things could be better - but they're definitely doable.

[Anjin]

Considering the tank invariably does the pulling, this doesn't see logical - i.e. the tank pull the mobs, then assists the MA to decide who you're gonna be taunting 1st.  IMO it's far more effective if the tank selects each target and is assisted via the MA.

Also, a big bonus when the tank chooses the target is that when the current target is say below 5% health he/she can switch to a new target and get decent aggro on it before the initial mob is killed and the MA assists the tank again.

Message Edited by Herbster on 01-23-2007 10:10 AM

[JudyJudy]

My apologies.  Bad bad wording.  I don't direct what the MT kills - I direct the DPS to what the MT wishes to be the next mob dropped.

 

 

[Anjin]

I was actually replying to Nacoa!

[Nacoa]

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Herbster wrote:

Considering the tank invariably does the pulling, this doesn't see logical - i.e. the tank pull the mobs, then assists the MA to decide who you're gonna be taunting 1st.  IMO it's far more effective if the tank selects each target and is assisted via the MA.

Also, a big bonus when the tank chooses the target is that when the current target is say below 5% health he/she can switch to a new target and get decent aggro on it before the initial mob is killed and the MA assists the tank again.

Message Edited by Herbster on 01-23-2007 10:10 AM

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Early in the fight, I'm taunting all the mobs in the group.  I pull, then the group taunt, then use a taunting ability on each mob, then settle in on whoever the MA is attacking until it's dead.  (I beat on the MA's target while waiting for the taunts to refresh)This way I get a good chunk of hate up against all the mobs, to protect the healer and any AoE casters.  There's also some hate pre-built on the next mob, whoever the MA chooses.Of course, a large part of this may be the group in which I play.  I dual-box with my brother-in-law who is dual-boxing.  After playing together for a very long time, I can predict who he's going to be attacking as the MA.  Also, since we're almost always in a 4-person group, groups do take a little longer to die than in a 6-person group, so I need more taunting and have more time to taunt.

[selch]

I say let them die and force them to learn to work with abilities of different types of tanks.