Avoidance buffs: overlooked?

Zedarius · 07-24-2006, 02:06 AM

I'm posting this here as well as the bruiser forum, to open it up to both brawling classes.Is it just me, or is the benefit of the avoidance buffs from a brawler greatly overlooked by the majority of people? I was on a raid the other night, and the main tank chose to have another crusader in the group for something like 5% mitigation, rather than a ~50% chance to use my ~70% avoidance if he were to have taken a hit. Mathematically, that just didn't seem to make sense. Has anybody figured out a formula where you can plug in Tank X's avoidance [x], your avoidance [y], and the %-chance that your avoidance buff will trigger [z] to figure out the theoretical avoidance of Tank X? I tried to figure it out, but I just ended up getting myself more confused =P I will say that a decently well-respected MT plate tank in a raiding guild said he extensively parsed having a crusader or a brawler in the main tank group, and discovered that the small mitigation boost is better than the avoidance buff. Anybody want to shed light on the issue or offer their own findings? I'm curious as to what others think

Code2501 · 07-24-2006, 06:01 AM

The actual benefit of that buff for the MT varies depending on the MT's avoidance... Without going into the detailed math, because the check is made only if the MT's avoidance fails the amount you actually help them avoid diminishes as their avoidance gets better.

The scale works out to something like :

MT avoidance 30% / your avoidance 70% = buffed avoidance equivalent 24.5%

MT avoidance 50% / your avoidance 70% = buffed avoidance equivalent 17.5%

MT avoidance 70% / your avoidance 70% = buffed avoidance equivalent 10.5%

In a standard raid situation 5% mitigation is worth more (damage reduction wise) than 10% avoidance due to avoidance being downgraded vs epics, maybe even better than 15% avoidance. So if the MT has a high avoidance rating to start with then they might be better off with 5% mitigation over the avoidance buff.

Just wanted to add, it does give them the 360 degree benefit of our avoidance though, so the benefit would be considerably better if the MT is getting flanked consistently.

Bladewind · 07-24-2006, 06:45 PM

Let x = MT avoidance before you buff them, as a %

Let y = Your avoidance (including the extra 1-2% from the buff when you place it on someone), as a %

Let z = The chance your buff will activate if their avoidance fails, as a %

Modified MT Avoidance = x + [(100%-x)*z*y]

As a real world t7 example for a generic monk buffing a generic guardian, let x = 65%, y = 76%, z = 35%

Modified MT avoidance = 65% + [(35%)*35%*76%] = 74.3%

Let's Look at the same example with a paladin buffing a guardian, let x = 65%, y = 65%, z = 35%

Modified MT Avoidance = 65% + [(35%)*(35%)*65%] = 72.9% --- not ahuge difference in this case, but the three variables influence things quite a bit

If we want to max avoidance completely, look at two brawlers, let x = 76%, y = 76%, z = 35%

Modified Mt avoidance = 76%+ [(24%)*(35%)*(76%)] = 82.4%

Every fighter has some form of this buff, and many misconceptions surround it. Primarily, most will refuse the buff from anyone because their avoidance increase from someone placing it on them does not show up in their persona window. However, the piddly 1-2% increase in avoidance that they get from using their own version of this buff upon someone else does show up, so they think they are better off putting their own buff on someone rather than an offtank putting theirs on the MT.

Secondly, even many people who realize they get a bonus don't have much of a clue how it works. This is the case where the brawler in the group is overlooked to apply the buff in favor of a plate tank with lower avoidance. I was in a 4 fighter pickup group jerking around a week ago and no one else understood how the buff worked or that I should be the one applying to the person we had as MT - was very frustrating.

The actual values plugged into the above equation have a huge effect on the final outcome.

The % chance for the ability to activate (z) is influenced by the quality of the ability, and if you have an adept 3/master, I think it is more like 40%. That alone gives a dandy bonus.

The values I used for plate avoidance are on the high side. In less extreme cases, the MT will probably have more like 57-60% avoidance to start with. This gives you a higher (100%-x) in the equation. So, the lower their avoidance is initially, the more you help.

By the same token, if it is a competition between you and someone else in the group putting the buff on, the lower their avoidance (and possibly their chance to block on their version of the art), the more benefit you provide over them.

If it is a raid situation, they probably want the crusader in the MT group for the goa buff, which increases the target's mitigation by taking some from the crusader. Their avoidance buff may not be as good as yours, but the extra 500ish mitigation on the MT does more good than a few extra avoidance %.

Within one group, the brawler using this buff on the MT will generally provide the most benefit since the brawler has the highest avoidance.

Gungo · 07-24-2006, 06:53 PM

The best part about this buff it breaks the 80% avoid cap. a brawler w 80%+ avoid w another fighter applying this buff on them will benefit from the extra parry/blocked attacks. I love having a crusader in my group for this reason mitigation and extra avoid.

RyanTSi · 07-24-2006, 10:02 PM

Gungo wrote:
The best part about this buff it breaks the 80% avoid cap. a brawler w 80%+ avoid w another fighter applying this buff on them will benefit from the extra parry/blocked attacks. I love having a crusader in my group for this reason mitigation and extra avoid.

wasnt the 80% avoid cap just a myth, like the .8 haste cap

Shankonia · 07-24-2006, 11:33 PM

With Guard, Dirge, Coercer and myself (Monk), using Tranquil Vision Master 1, I have never been able to raise my avoidance above 82% in the personna window (Dirge w/ M1 Screehing & AA line that increases bard avoidance spells).

At the time I had my own AA's spec'd with heavy avoidance and was hitting roughly 79-81% in my middle stance which blew my mind, yet after dropping to defensive and swapping in all of my avoidance gear I never could get above 82%.

Thanks to /weaponstats I can now win every arguement via proof regarding max haste vs. delay, yet this whole buffing the MT w/ avoidance bit has me a baffled when trying to crunch the numbers as well.

All numbers aside and through experience alone I can say it works pretty well as a MT buff for raids situationally - the more the enemy swings the better the brawler buff works over the crusader buffs.

laatikko · 07-24-2006, 11:45 PM

Shankonia wrote:

With Guard, Dirge, Coercer and myself (Monk), using Tranquil Vision Master 1, I have never been able to raise my avoidance above 82% in the personna window (Dirge w/ M1 Screehing & AA line that increases bard avoidance spells).

At the time I had my own AA's spec'd with heavy avoidance and was hitting roughly 79-81% in my middle stance which blew my mind, yet after dropping to defensive and swapping in all of my avoidance gear I never could get above 82%.

Thanks to /weaponstats I can now win every arguement via proof regarding max haste vs. delay, yet this whole buffing the MT w/ avoidance bit has me a baffled when trying to crunch the numbers as well.

All numbers aside and through experience alone I can say it works pretty well as a MT buff for raids situationally - the more the enemy swings the better the brawler buff works over the crusader buffs.

My pb on avoidance was 84.3% in persona screen. Iirc i had a guardian, dirge, and fury to beef it up most. I was 420+ on deflection and defense and 419 in parry. I swapped the dirge agi song to dps thou so it dropped a little. Dont think i still avoided even near to half from that lvl74 epics attacks... On a side note id say monks place rly isnt in Mt grp to buff up avoidance with tranquil vision (that would mean the monk in defensive stance too) There are classes with better benefits to put there imo.

Bladewind · 07-25-2006, 04:23 AM

Your avoidance (and mit) are vs an even con mob. There is a substantial penalty to both vs a mob 4 levels higher.

I'll agree that a monk is not ideal for most MT groups in most raids when you have a stable of fighters to choose from, but the point of the post (i think) was that a brawler's avoidance buff on the MT helps the most with maximizing the MT's raw avoidance.

This then filters down to raids where you only have a few fighters and also to single group situations where you are working with what you have.

Gungo · 07-25-2006, 05:47 AM

RyanTSi wrote:

Gungo wrote:
The best part about this buff it breaks the 80% avoid cap. a brawler w 80%+ avoid w another fighter applying this buff on them will benefit from the extra parry/blocked attacks. I love having a crusader in my group for this reason mitigation and extra avoid.

wasnt the 80% avoid cap just a myth, like the .8 haste cap

Nope it was a direct post from moorgard. afaik the overall avodiance cap vs a mob is 80%. Skills cap at 80% vs green even con solo mob and cap at 70% vs blue or higher. Once you break you races agi cap and hit 420 in deflection/parry/defense. There is very little you can do to gain additioanl avodiance. For most bruisers this equates to about ~82-84%. Having another fighter avodi buff you effectively breaks this cap.

Message Edited by Gungo on 07-24-2006 06:50 PM

ArcticBlue182 · 07-25-2006, 11:56 AM

i actually read it that the OP was talking about any group situation and not just raid groups, which everyone seems obssessed with.i have been in afew normal small groups of late with my self (70monk with adpt 3 tranq) 1 or 2 healers, a dirge and a swashy, we were going to do a den run and got a msg from a 69 beserker so he joind up.. now when he got to us i put the buff on him but he then removed it by placing his own buff on himself and said something about not wanting it, so i stuck it on 1 of my guildies instead.now surely my buff would have been better than anything he could place on himself ? and like i said this has happened afew times over the last week.

Ryuugekitai · 07-25-2006, 04:21 PM

Gungo wrote:

Nope it was a direct post from moorgard. afaik the overall avodiance cap vs a mob is 80%. Skills cap at 80% vs green even con solo mob and cap at 70% vs blue or higher. Once you break you races agi cap and hit 420 in deflection/parry/defense. There is very little you can do to gain additioanl avodiance. For most bruisers this equates to about ~82-84%. Having another fighter avodi buff you effectively breaks this cap.
Message Edited by Gungo on 07-24-2006 06:50 PM

Moorgard said "Defense, parry, and shield block (as well as the brawler skill defection) have a cap of 70% against green through reds, 80% against greys." : http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=34470&query.id=0#M34470

If I do the math the same way SOE does (which is unlikely but it's all I can do) I get :

Avoidance = 70% (base avoidance) + 30% (remaining) * 70% (deflection) + 9% (still remaining) * 70% (parry) = 97,3% overall
(in wathever order you want)

So how did you get your ~82-84% ? (SOE math always tend to amaze me, so please fill me in)

He also said : "Remember that the numbers you see are against an even-level opponent. You have a lower chance against higher-con creatures. So for example, say you were sitting at exactly 70% parry and got some item that gave you an additional boost to that skill. You wouldn't see any increase in the numbers in the persona window, but you'd be benefitting from it when fighting yellows and higher."

Meaning if your defencive stance only raises skills that are at 70% allready you won't get any higher vs white con mobs bye using it but you will gain bonuses vs yellow or highter con mobs.

Microphage · 07-26-2006, 12:03 AM

The overall 80% avoidance cap is dogma. It might be true but I have never seen it proved. Here is a popular link to a popular thread about the calculations http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=13068&query.id=46949#M13068

It actually wouldn't be that hard to do one roll for overall avoidance, capped at 80% and then decide what was responsible based on their relative contributions. So, yea 97.3% could equal 80%. The question of course, is what are they really doing? Unless someone goes out and does rigorous testing, and shares it with everyone, we will never know for sure.

Code2501 · 07-26-2006, 05:24 AM

ArcticBlue182 wrote:
i actually read it that the OP was talking about any group situation and not just raid groups, which everyone seems obssessed with.

i have been in afew normal small groups of late with my self (70monk with adpt 3 tranq) 1 or 2 healers, a dirge and a swashy, we were going to do a den run and got a msg from a 69 beserker so he joind up.. now when he got to us i put the buff on him but he then removed it by placing his own buff on himself and said something about not wanting it, so i stuck it on 1 of my guildies instead.

now surely my buff would have been better than anything he could place on himself ? and like i said this has happened afew times over the last week.

Group or Raid, my post still answers the OP. A brawlers avoidance buff vs crusaders avoidance buff AND mitigation buff would ordinarily make the crusaders buffs more desireable for the MT. This is particularly the case with T7 warriors which have little trouble reaching 60% avoidance by them selves, hence the avoidance given from the buffs are reduced in potency. The only situation which the brawler buff would be more beneficial to the MT than a Crusader would be if they were facing multiple mobs and constently getting flanked, in which case a brawler would add a LOT more avoidance to their rear.

ArcticBlue182 · 07-26-2006, 11:50 AM

Code2501 wrote:

ArcticBlue182 wrote:i actually read it that the OP was talking about any group situation and not just raid groups, which everyone seems obssessed with.i have been in afew normal small groups of late with my self (70monk with adpt 3 tranq) 1 or 2 healers, a dirge and a swashy, we were going to do a den run and got a msg from a 69 beserker so he joind up.. now when he got to us i put the buff on him but he then removed it by placing his own buff on himself and said something about not wanting it, so i stuck it on 1 of my guildies instead.now surely my buff would have been better than anything he could place on himself ? and like i said this has happened afew times over the last week.

Group or Raid, my post still answers the OP. A brawlers avoidance buff vs crusaders avoidance buff AND mitigation buff would ordinarily make the crusaders buffs more desireable for the MT. This is particularly the case with T7 warriors which have little trouble reaching 60% avoidance by them selves, hence the avoidance given from the buffs are reduced in potency. The only situation which the brawler buff would be more beneficial to the MT than a Crusader would be if they were facing multiple mobs and constently getting flanked, in which case a brawler would add a LOT more avoidance to their rear.

that maybe true, but alot of posts made on these forums get turned into a discusion about raids and raid setups etc, and not everyone raids, wants to raid or gets the chance.while a cursaders buff might be more desireable its no use if you arnt grouped with one yet the MT still does not want the monks buff sometimes, as i said, which i find odd.

Message Edited by ArcticBlue182 on 07-26-2006 12:51 AM

Code2501 · 07-28-2006, 08:44 AM

ArcticBlue182 wrote:

Code2501 wrote:

ArcticBlue182 wrote:
i actually read it that the OP was talking about any group situation and not just raid groups, which everyone seems obssessed with.

i have been in afew normal small groups of late with my self (70monk with adpt 3 tranq) 1 or 2 healers, a dirge and a swashy, we were going to do a den run and got a msg from a 69 beserker so he joind up.. now when he got to us i put the buff on him but he then removed it by placing his own buff on himself and said something about not wanting it, so i stuck it on 1 of my guildies instead.

now surely my buff would have been better than anything he could place on himself ? and like i said this has happened afew times over the last week.

Group or Raid, my post still answers the OP. A brawlers avoidance buff vs crusaders avoidance buff AND mitigation buff would ordinarily make the crusaders buffs more desireable for the MT. This is particularly the case with T7 warriors which have little trouble reaching 60% avoidance by them selves, hence the avoidance given from the buffs are reduced in potency. The only situation which the brawler buff would be more beneficial to the MT than a Crusader would be if they were facing multiple mobs and constently getting flanked, in which case a brawler would add a LOT more avoidance to their rear.

that maybe true, but alot of posts made on these forums get turned into a discusion about raids and raid setups etc, and not everyone raids, wants to raid or gets the chance.

while a cursaders buff might be more desireable its no use if you arnt grouped with one yet the MT still does not want the monks buff sometimes, as i said, which i find odd.

Message Edited by ArcticBlue182 on 07-26-2006 12:51 AM

Whilst the OP was talking about a situation during a raid specifically, I understand the situation you are referring to, I think your specific situation occurs often enough because when designing this ability SoE chose to make its benefit obscure and hence unknowledgable players don't understand the benefit of this buff. The fact that this buff makes no visable difference to your persona stats and the actual benefit requires 5 minutes to explain otherwise means in most situations where the buff is overwritten by the MT I accept that they are simply and in-experienced player and put the buff on someone else. I dont try to explain to pickup groups why the MT should leave a buff off but then again, I more often than not AM the MT in a group situation.

For this reason It is understandable that the discussion on this buff applying to the MT leans toward raid experience, as most experienced monks don't need a plate tank in the group to take heroic content, but monks tanking Epics can mean poor use of a guardian.

In the limited situations where you are grouped with an inexperienced plate tank who is MT, If they don't understand why your non-visible buff is better than a visible change in stats from there buff, my advise is to just accept they don't understand and move on... in a group situation fighting group content 99% of the time the difference will not be noticable to anyone except parsing min/maxers.

07-24-2006, 02:06 AM	#1
Zedarius Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 9	I'm posting this here as well as the bruiser forum, to open it up to both brawling classes.Is it just me, or is the benefit of the avoidance buffs from a brawler greatly overlooked by the majority of people? I was on a raid the other night, and the main tank chose to have another crusader in the group for something like 5% mitigation, rather than a ~50% chance to use my ~70% avoidance if he were to have taken a hit. Mathematically, that just didn't seem to make sense. Has anybody figured out a formula where you can plug in Tank X's avoidance [x], your avoidance [y], and the %-chance that your avoidance buff will trigger [z] to figure out the theoretical avoidance of Tank X? I tried to figure it out, but I just ended up getting myself more confused =P I will say that a decently well-respected MT plate tank in a raiding guild said he extensively parsed having a crusader or a brawler in the main tank group, and discovered that the small mitigation boost is better than the avoidance buff. Anybody want to shed light on the issue or offer their own findings? I'm curious as to what others think __________________ Kodack Rocksmoosher the Fragrant 70 Troll Bruiser Lucan D'Lere

07-24-2006, 06:45 PM	#3
Bladewind Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 783	Let x = MT avoidance before you buff them, as a % Let y = Your avoidance (including the extra 1-2% from the buff when you place it on someone), as a % Let z = The chance your buff will activate if their avoidance fails, as a % Modified MT Avoidance = x + [(100%-x)zy] As a real world t7 example for a generic monk buffing a generic guardian, let x = 65%, y = 76%, z = 35% Modified MT avoidance = 65% + [(35%)35%76%] = 74.3% Let's Look at the same example with a paladin buffing a guardian, let x = 65%, y = 65%, z = 35% Modified MT Avoidance = 65% + [(35%)(35%)65%] = 72.9% --- not ahuge difference in this case, but the three variables influence things quite a bit If we want to max avoidance completely, look at two brawlers, let x = 76%, y = 76%, z = 35% Modified Mt avoidance = 76%+ [(24%)(35%)(76%)] = 82.4% Every fighter has some form of this buff, and many misconceptions surround it. Primarily, most will refuse the buff from anyone because their avoidance increase from someone placing it on them does not show up in their persona window. However, the piddly 1-2% increase in avoidance that they get from using their own version of this buff upon someone else does show up, so they think they are better off putting their own buff on someone rather than an offtank putting theirs on the MT. Secondly, even many people who realize they get a bonus don't have much of a clue how it works. This is the case where the brawler in the group is overlooked to apply the buff in favor of a plate tank with lower avoidance. I was in a 4 fighter pickup group jerking around a week ago and no one else understood how the buff worked or that I should be the one applying to the person we had as MT - was very frustrating. The actual values plugged into the above equation have a huge effect on the final outcome. The % chance for the ability to activate (z) is influenced by the quality of the ability, and if you have an adept 3/master, I think it is more like 40%. That alone gives a dandy bonus. The values I used for plate avoidance are on the high side. In less extreme cases, the MT will probably have more like 57-60% avoidance to start with. This gives you a higher (100%-x) in the equation. So, the lower their avoidance is initially, the more you help. By the same token, if it is a competition between you and someone else in the group putting the buff on, the lower their avoidance (and possibly their chance to block on their version of the art), the more benefit you provide over them. If it is a raid situation, they probably want the crusader in the MT group for the goa buff, which increases the target's mitigation by taking some from the crusader. Their avoidance buff may not be as good as yours, but the extra 500ish mitigation on the MT does more good than a few extra avoidance %. Within one group, the brawler using this buff on the MT will generally provide the most benefit since the brawler has the highest avoidance. __________________

07-24-2006, 10:02 PM	#5
RyanTSi Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 207	Gungo wrote: The best part about this buff it breaks the 80% avoid cap. a brawler w 80%+ avoid w another fighter applying this buff on them will benefit from the extra parry/blocked attacks. I love having a crusader in my group for this reason mitigation and extra avoid. wasnt the 80% avoid cap just a myth, like the .8 haste cap __________________

07-24-2006, 11:45 PM	#7
laatikko Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 25	Shankonia wrote: With Guard, Dirge, Coercer and myself (Monk), using Tranquil Vision Master 1, I have never been able to raise my avoidance above 82% in the personna window (Dirge w/ M1 Screehing & AA line that increases bard avoidance spells). At the time I had my own AA's spec'd with heavy avoidance and was hitting roughly 79-81% in my middle stance which blew my mind, yet after dropping to defensive and swapping in all of my avoidance gear I never could get above 82%. Thanks to /weaponstats I can now win every arguement via proof regarding max haste vs. delay, yet this whole buffing the MT w/ avoidance bit has me a baffled when trying to crunch the numbers as well. All numbers aside and through experience alone I can say it works pretty well as a MT buff for raids situationally - the more the enemy swings the better the brawler buff works over the crusader buffs. My pb on avoidance was 84.3% in persona screen. Iirc i had a guardian, dirge, and fury to beef it up most. I was 420+ on deflection and defense and 419 in parry. I swapped the dirge agi song to dps thou so it dropped a little. Dont think i still avoided even near to half from that lvl74 epics attacks... On a side note id say monks place rly isnt in Mt grp to buff up avoidance with tranquil vision (that would mean the monk in defensive stance too) There are classes with better benefits to put there imo.

07-25-2006, 04:23 AM	#8
Bladewind Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 783	Your avoidance (and mit) are vs an even con mob. There is a substantial penalty to both vs a mob 4 levels higher. I'll agree that a monk is not ideal for most MT groups in most raids when you have a stable of fighters to choose from, but the point of the post (i think) was that a brawler's avoidance buff on the MT helps the most with maximizing the MT's raw avoidance. This then filters down to raids where you only have a few fighters and also to single group situations where you are working with what you have. __________________

07-24-2006, 06:01 AM	#2
Code2501 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 165	The actual benefit of that buff for the MT varies depending on the MT's avoidance... Without going into the detailed math, because the check is made only if the MT's avoidance fails the amount you actually help them avoid diminishes as their avoidance gets better. The scale works out to something like : MT avoidance 30% / your avoidance 70% = buffed avoidance equivalent 24.5% MT avoidance 50% / your avoidance 70% = buffed avoidance equivalent 17.5% MT avoidance 70% / your avoidance 70% = buffed avoidance equivalent 10.5% In a standard raid situation 5% mitigation is worth more (damage reduction wise) than 10% avoidance due to avoidance being downgraded vs epics, maybe even better than 15% avoidance. So if the MT has a high avoidance rating to start with then they might be better off with 5% mitigation over the avoidance buff. Just wanted to add, it does give them the 360 degree benefit of our avoidance though, so the benefit would be considerably better if the MT is getting flanked consistently.

07-24-2006, 06:53 PM	#4
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	The best part about this buff it breaks the 80% avoid cap. a brawler w 80%+ avoid w another fighter applying this buff on them will benefit from the extra parry/blocked attacks. I love having a crusader in my group for this reason mitigation and extra avoid.

07-24-2006, 11:33 PM	#6
Shankonia Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 231	With Guard, Dirge, Coercer and myself (Monk), using Tranquil Vision Master 1, I have never been able to raise my avoidance above 82% in the personna window (Dirge w/ M1 Screehing & AA line that increases bard avoidance spells). At the time I had my own AA's spec'd with heavy avoidance and was hitting roughly 79-81% in my middle stance which blew my mind, yet after dropping to defensive and swapping in all of my avoidance gear I never could get above 82%. Thanks to /weaponstats I can now win every arguement via proof regarding max haste vs. delay, yet this whole buffing the MT w/ avoidance bit has me a baffled when trying to crunch the numbers as well. All numbers aside and through experience alone I can say it works pretty well as a MT buff for raids situationally - the more the enemy swings the better the brawler buff works over the crusader buffs.

07-25-2006, 05:47 AM	#9
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	RyanTSi wrote: Gungo wrote: The best part about this buff it breaks the 80% avoid cap. a brawler w 80%+ avoid w another fighter applying this buff on them will benefit from the extra parry/blocked attacks. I love having a crusader in my group for this reason mitigation and extra avoid. wasnt the 80% avoid cap just a myth, like the .8 haste cap Nope it was a direct post from moorgard. afaik the overall avodiance cap vs a mob is 80%. Skills cap at 80% vs green even con solo mob and cap at 70% vs blue or higher. Once you break you races agi cap and hit 420 in deflection/parry/defense. There is very little you can do to gain additioanl avodiance. For most bruisers this equates to about ~82-84%. Having another fighter avodi buff you effectively breaks this cap. Message Edited by Gungo on 07-24-2006 06:50 PM

07-25-2006, 11:56 AM	#10
ArcticBlue182 Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 209	i actually read it that the OP was talking about any group situation and not just raid groups, which everyone seems obssessed with.i have been in afew normal small groups of late with my self (70monk with adpt 3 tranq) 1 or 2 healers, a dirge and a swashy, we were going to do a den run and got a msg from a 69 beserker so he joind up.. now when he got to us i put the buff on him but he then removed it by placing his own buff on himself and said something about not wanting it, so i stuck it on 1 of my guildies instead.now surely my buff would have been better than anything he could place on himself ? and like i said this has happened afew times over the last week.

07-25-2006, 04:21 PM	#11
Ryuugekitai Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 363	Gungo wrote: Nope it was a direct post from moorgard. afaik the overall avodiance cap vs a mob is 80%. Skills cap at 80% vs green even con solo mob and cap at 70% vs blue or higher. Once you break you races agi cap and hit 420 in deflection/parry/defense. There is very little you can do to gain additioanl avodiance. For most bruisers this equates to about ~82-84%. Having another fighter avodi buff you effectively breaks this cap. Message Edited by Gungo on 07-24-2006 06:50 PM Moorgard said "Defense, parry, and shield block (as well as the brawler skill defection) have a cap of 70% against green through reds, 80% against greys." : http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=34470&query.id=0#M34470 If I do the math the same way SOE does (which is unlikely but it's all I can do) I get : Avoidance = 70% (base avoidance) + 30% (remaining) * 70% (deflection) + 9% (still remaining) * 70% (parry) = 97,3% overall (in wathever order you want) So how did you get your ~82-84% ? (SOE math always tend to amaze me, so please fill me in) He also said : "Remember that the numbers you see are against an even-level opponent. You have a lower chance against higher-con creatures. So for example, say you were sitting at exactly 70% parry and got some item that gave you an additional boost to that skill. You wouldn't see any increase in the numbers in the persona window, but you'd be benefitting from it when fighting yellows and higher." Meaning if your defencive stance only raises skills that are at 70% allready you won't get any higher vs white con mobs bye using it but you will gain bonuses vs yellow or highter con mobs. __________________ Dilandau Wood Elf lvl 70 Fury on Storms Hamel Half Elf lvl 57 Dirge on Storms

07-26-2006, 12:03 AM	#12
Microphage Lord Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: West Coast Posts: 68	The overall 80% avoidance cap is dogma. It might be true but I have never seen it proved. Here is a popular link to a popular thread about the calculations http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=13068&query.id=46949#M13068 It actually wouldn't be that hard to do one roll for overall avoidance, capped at 80% and then decide what was responsible based on their relative contributions. So, yea 97.3% could equal 80%. The question of course, is what are they really doing? Unless someone goes out and does rigorous testing, and shares it with everyone, we will never know for sure.

07-26-2006, 05:24 AM	#13
Code2501 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 165	ArcticBlue182 wrote: i actually read it that the OP was talking about any group situation and not just raid groups, which everyone seems obssessed with. i have been in afew normal small groups of late with my self (70monk with adpt 3 tranq) 1 or 2 healers, a dirge and a swashy, we were going to do a den run and got a msg from a 69 beserker so he joind up.. now when he got to us i put the buff on him but he then removed it by placing his own buff on himself and said something about not wanting it, so i stuck it on 1 of my guildies instead. now surely my buff would have been better than anything he could place on himself ? and like i said this has happened afew times over the last week. Group or Raid, my post still answers the OP. A brawlers avoidance buff vs crusaders avoidance buff AND mitigation buff would ordinarily make the crusaders buffs more desireable for the MT. This is particularly the case with T7 warriors which have little trouble reaching 60% avoidance by them selves, hence the avoidance given from the buffs are reduced in potency. The only situation which the brawler buff would be more beneficial to the MT than a Crusader would be if they were facing multiple mobs and constently getting flanked, in which case a brawler would add a LOT more avoidance to their rear.

07-26-2006, 11:50 AM	#14
ArcticBlue182 Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 209	Code2501 wrote: ArcticBlue182 wrote:i actually read it that the OP was talking about any group situation and not just raid groups, which everyone seems obssessed with.i have been in afew normal small groups of late with my self (70monk with adpt 3 tranq) 1 or 2 healers, a dirge and a swashy, we were going to do a den run and got a msg from a 69 beserker so he joind up.. now when he got to us i put the buff on him but he then removed it by placing his own buff on himself and said something about not wanting it, so i stuck it on 1 of my guildies instead.now surely my buff would have been better than anything he could place on himself ? and like i said this has happened afew times over the last week. Group or Raid, my post still answers the OP. A brawlers avoidance buff vs crusaders avoidance buff AND mitigation buff would ordinarily make the crusaders buffs more desireable for the MT. This is particularly the case with T7 warriors which have little trouble reaching 60% avoidance by them selves, hence the avoidance given from the buffs are reduced in potency. The only situation which the brawler buff would be more beneficial to the MT than a Crusader would be if they were facing multiple mobs and constently getting flanked, in which case a brawler would add a LOT more avoidance to their rear. that maybe true, but alot of posts made on these forums get turned into a discusion about raids and raid setups etc, and not everyone raids, wants to raid or gets the chance.while a cursaders buff might be more desireable its no use if you arnt grouped with one yet the MT still does not want the monks buff sometimes, as i said, which i find odd. Message Edited by ArcticBlue182 on 07-26-2006 12:51 AM

07-28-2006, 08:44 AM	#15
Code2501 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 165	ArcticBlue182 wrote: Code2501 wrote: ArcticBlue182 wrote: i actually read it that the OP was talking about any group situation and not just raid groups, which everyone seems obssessed with. i have been in afew normal small groups of late with my self (70monk with adpt 3 tranq) 1 or 2 healers, a dirge and a swashy, we were going to do a den run and got a msg from a 69 beserker so he joind up.. now when he got to us i put the buff on him but he then removed it by placing his own buff on himself and said something about not wanting it, so i stuck it on 1 of my guildies instead. now surely my buff would have been better than anything he could place on himself ? and like i said this has happened afew times over the last week. Group or Raid, my post still answers the OP. A brawlers avoidance buff vs crusaders avoidance buff AND mitigation buff would ordinarily make the crusaders buffs more desireable for the MT. This is particularly the case with T7 warriors which have little trouble reaching 60% avoidance by them selves, hence the avoidance given from the buffs are reduced in potency. The only situation which the brawler buff would be more beneficial to the MT than a Crusader would be if they were facing multiple mobs and constently getting flanked, in which case a brawler would add a LOT more avoidance to their rear. that maybe true, but alot of posts made on these forums get turned into a discusion about raids and raid setups etc, and not everyone raids, wants to raid or gets the chance. while a cursaders buff might be more desireable its no use if you arnt grouped with one yet the MT still does not want the monks buff sometimes, as i said, which i find odd. Message Edited by ArcticBlue182 on 07-26-2006 12:51 AM Whilst the OP was talking about a situation during a raid specifically, I understand the situation you are referring to, I think your specific situation occurs often enough because when designing this ability SoE chose to make its benefit obscure and hence unknowledgable players don't understand the benefit of this buff. The fact that this buff makes no visable difference to your persona stats and the actual benefit requires 5 minutes to explain otherwise means in most situations where the buff is overwritten by the MT I accept that they are simply and in-experienced player and put the buff on someone else. I dont try to explain to pickup groups why the MT should leave a buff off but then again, I more often than not AM the MT in a group situation. For this reason It is understandable that the discussion on this buff applying to the MT leans toward raid experience, as most experienced monks don't need a plate tank in the group to take heroic content, but monks tanking Epics can mean poor use of a guardian. In the limited situations where you are grouped with an inexperienced plate tank who is MT, If they don't understand why your non-visible buff is better than a visible change in stats from there buff, my advise is to just accept they don't understand and move on... in a group situation fighting group content 99% of the time the difference will not be noticable to anyone except parsing min/maxers.