item progression: shoulders

[zabor]

I argued a lot with gaige about this, but i have to admit he was right. The dragonscale shoulders are so much better than all the t7 fabled shoulder pads I've seen in the game yet. It has the highest hp, highest base mitigation, 7 defense, and a good proc, while all the other shoulders have no proc at all. I dont think a quest rewards which is easily soloable for the most parts should be comparable with loot from x4 contested epics. I don't want a big nerf for this item, but maybe adjust it and the other items a bit so it is not the best for everything a tank needs.

[NerissaRavenHeart]

where do the dragonscale shoulder come from again?Masu

[zabor]

claymore quest in poa

[selch]

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zaboron wrote:

I argued a lot with gaige about this, but i have to admit he was right. The dragonscale shoulders are so much better than all the t7 fabled shoulder pads I've seen in the game yet. It has the highest hp, highest base mitigation, 7 defense, and a good proc, while all the other shoulders have no proc at all. I dont think a quest rewards which is easily soloable for the most parts should be comparable with loot from x4 contested epics. I don't want a big nerf for this item, but maybe adjust it and the other items a bit so it is not the best for everything a tank needs.

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Heh, everything a raider needs to nerf down non-raid equipment... That's how to satisfy yourself like did in crafted rage before.  Oh well, but that's you I guess like you can fight rest of armor parts naked but just with that one... Good luck with 350 mitigation... Beside +20 mitigation, and +4 defense, does not bring back +100 powers, tons of resists, other procs, other offense bonuses.

As many of you say: "It is all about the choice"

You  had fun for x4's, got many other masters,  count it towards that...

 

Message Edited by selch on 04-26-2006 12:23 PM

[DarkerApprenti]

It is just one item. Let it go. Please. Stop calling for nerfs on everything and let people play and have fun. No offense intended but it's just a single piece of gear. All the other raid loot is uber. Let this one go.

[Gaige]

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DarkerApprentice wrote:
It is just one item. Let it go. Please. Stop calling for nerfs on everything and let people play and have fun. No offense intended but it's just a single piece of gear. All the other raid loot is uber. Let this one go.

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No.  A legendary quest reward item should not be better than every single fabled piece for the same slot in the expansion.

I mean jeez, those legendary quest reward shoulders have 7 less mit than most T7 fabled leather BREAST PLATES.

The mit on them needs to be nerfed, period.

[DarkerApprenti]

If you take the fabled gear as an entire package (more resists, more stats ... the claymore piece is only upgrading 2 stats, no power bonus, etc.) the fabled gear are still better. So maybe the mitigation may need a slight adjustment but oh well.

[selch]

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Gaige wrote:

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DarkerApprentice wrote:
It is just one item. Let it go. Please. Stop calling for nerfs on everything and let people play and have fun. No offense intended but it's just a single piece of gear. All the other raid loot is uber. Let this one go.

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No.  A legendary quest reward item should not be better than every single fabled piece for the same slot in the expansion.

I mean jeez, those legendary quest reward shoulders have 7 less mit than most T7 fabled leather BREAST PLATES.

The mit on them needs to be nerfed, period.

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So will it save you enough mitigation when rest of your gear is legendary too?

I call that  greed.

 

 

[Gungo]

rumour has it. Its already being nerfed. Sad though since i like the green arm graphic =P

Btw the Eye stalk fabled is alot better.

Relic is a trash mob drops.

excarnate i thought was trash drop as well in labs?

The mantle of wind needs a serious upgrade as a contested drop off hurraicanus

And the stormcharge mantle i have no cleu where it drops but probably off trash as well being its only lvl 67.

Barring all that i agree the mitigation is a wee bit to high by about 50.

 

 

 

Message Edited by Gungo on 04-26-2006 02:38 PM

[DarkerApprenti]

I'm not saying it's greed. I am saying why call for a nerf? I mean, the developers ARE going to nerf it. It's just a matter of WHEN. They nerf things all the time without a thread on a forum being posted CALLING for it to be nerfed. Remember the bracers in palace? This will be fixed...I'm just confused why we have to call for things to get nerfed when we know that they will ultimately get nerfed. Let it ride. No offense to anyone posting here just my opinion.

[Gaige]

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selch wrote:

So will it save you enough mitigation when rest of your gear is legendary too?

I call that  greed.

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Legendary should have appropriate mitigation for its moniker.

[DarkerApprenti]

I agree with you on that gaige; I really do. Just confused why we use monk forums to call for nerfs instead of the systems built in place for doing so.

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Gaige wrote:

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selch wrote:

So will it save you enough mitigation when rest of your gear is legendary too?

I call that  greed.

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Legendary should have appropriate mitigation for its moniker.

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[selch]

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Gaige wrote:

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selch wrote:

So will it save you enough mitigation when rest of your gear is legendary too?

I call that  greed.

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Legendary should have appropriate mitigation for its moniker.

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Seems some not, I don't see any rule or general opinion that every item should be around its moniker, obviously it is a "reward" item and I don't see many legendaries close to Fableds, and this one has almost nothing "attractive" beside mitigation...

 

May be stats use some more love, seems it is lack of quite stats especially powerside to complete its mitigation

 

There is one good point here: it is not loot that you can camp and get over and over... it is a reward for a quest , in the end it is a reward for a QUEST in EverQUEST.

 

 

 

 

 

Message Edited by selch on 04-26-2006 02:56 PM

[Logan]

It is hard to answer a post like this without being inflammatory. In general these monk boards are great, especially compared to some of the other class boards. The only thing that ever gets oogly here is the point of views not shared by raiders and non raiders over gear. The issue of risk vs reward always comes up, rarely time invested, and even more rare that this is a game and not RL. I am a non raider myself and I think it is great we get a bone thrown at us for puttin the time in to do this great quest series knowing full well I will not be able to finish the end of the line. Also I am content with only receiving one item that is on par with raiders loot. I do not require a full set to make my days better. Being more casual the quest line takes me heck of a lot longer than a powergamer.

By no means am I slamming raiders and powergamers here. You guys earn the great raid loot you get.  And if I wanted a full suit of great armor I should prob join a big raid guild. But that's not where my fun is so it is a nice treat to have a reward like this in there. One item per expansion sounds reasonable to me. The key is that everyone has access to it if they put in the time to get it, and that includes raiders so they can still have the best gear in the game. I guess it really depends on how you compare your gear....do I have the best in the game, or do I have better gear than everyone else? Which point matters most to you?

I am satisfied being able to function wonderfully without a full set of raid gear, however since I do enjoy questing it is nice to be rewarded for effort(in time spent) and the whole claymore line and even infiltrating line have been a treat. Obviously I hope the the shoulders do not change but I ask for nothing more.

 

Logann 70 monk..Kithicor

[Dfoley3]

So let me get this straight. A reward from about 17 quests that takes minimum, probably 14-20 hrs to get to, shouldnt be compareable to items that can be gotten with a 1 group raid in 1-2 min? Relic - trash - can drop from farm groups in lab/lycieum, all it takes is 1 rellic patter... has 110 more power, more resists, and more mitthats right noobs, relic has more mit.   140/3 + 314 = 360 mit The quest arms - u get no power, a 1 hr reuse buff with a 5 min duration and  343 mit, thats 17 less mit, over 800 less resists, and its 4 less stats (+64 stats on rellic + 60 on quest arms)No ofense but ryza and gage you need to be quite and do some math before you cry nerf..... im sorry the death toll raid loot isnt zomg amazing yet, but i get so sick of hearing you 2 cry for nerfs when you have no clue wht your talking about,   those arms may come from a quest line that can be soloed up to that point but ur looking at 40-50 hrs of soloing to get there.  Where as 1 group of decent geared raiders can get rellic arms.....so yeah pls be quiet and do some math

[zabor]

well let's talk about the shoulders from hurricanus, a contested, which have less mitigation, hp, str, and avoidance than the dragonscale shoulder pads.With wiping a few times during the first triesetc. you will need at least ~4 hrs to kill hurricanus for the first time - if you are a hardcore guild and have no hard competition. With gearing up etc., the estimated time for killing that mob is at 10 hrs. 24 ppl in a raid * 10 hrs = 240 hrs. So killing hurricanus needs a lot more work than that claymore quest, but still the reward is worse. I do not think that is right.

[Cirth_Beer]

hummm

24 ppl in a raid * 10 hrs = 240 hrs

What is that math ? it's simply ridiculous ! it's like comparing potatoe and carrots :o

And the problem may be the fact that hurricanus drop crappy thing .... and his loot should be buffed ...

[selch]

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Cirth_Beer wrote:

hummm

24 ppl in a raid * 10 hrs = 240 hrs

What is that math ? it's simply ridiculous ! it's like comparing potatoe and carrots :o

And the problem may be the fact that hurricanus drop crappy thing .... and his loot should be buffed ...

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Yeah, they created all the small mountains at Norrath, world owes them...

Sick of Raiders nerf cries... well, in the end, like Koster says: They are just vocal minority.

Message Edited by selch on 04-27-2006 07:07 AM

[zabor]

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Cirth_Beer wrote:

hummm

24 ppl in a raid * 10 hrs = 240 hrs

What is that math ? it's simply ridiculous ! it's like comparing potatoe and carrots :o

And the problem may be the fact that hurricanus drop crappy thing .... and his loot should be buffed ...

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exactly my point.

Message Edited by zaboron on 04-27-2006 04:41 PM

[shaolen]

In my opinion I think they should downgrade the Relic and Excarnate armor to legendary.   When you look at those armor, they drop from none named mobs.  Even though they are Epic they are in essence "trash mobs".  It takes little effort to acquire them, simply be in the raid and win the roll etc... Even though they are extremely rare now, been on four or five lab raids no relic drops.  Was the drop rate nerfed due to raiding guilds abusing the zone or folks calling for a nerf rate on the drops?

Anyway back on topic, I wish they would leave the Claymore rewards the way they are since it takes some effort and time to get them.  For the average monk (like me) the Claymore quest series cannot be soloed after the first few, I wish it could.    For those of you that raid full time I think you should get the better gear.  But at the same time, those of us who don't or can't raid like that should be able to get some nice gear too once in awhile.  This gear should require time and effort to get it, it should not be given out easily.

What bothers me is the attitude of some of the monks here.  Some of you guys tend to trivialize or put down the non-raid gear (and in a round about way non raiders) because you do not need it, or its easy for you to acquire.  When you do that you come off as "holier than thou" which is not cool at all.   I appreciate the posting of the gear and advice but could really do without the attitude. 

[selch]

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zaboron wrote:

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Cirth_Beer wrote:

hummm

24 ppl in a raid * 10 hrs = 240 hrs

What is that math ? it's simply ridiculous ! it's like comparing potatoe and carrots :o

And the problem may be the fact that hurricanus drop crappy thing .... and his loot should be buffed ...

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exactly my point.

Message Edited by zaboron on 04-27-2006 04:41 PM

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No, it was not your point... Your point was to downgrade equipment...

 

Your point was "OMG! HOW CAN SOMETHING AS QUEST REWARD THAT CAN BE BETTER THAN MY LEWT WITH HELP OF 23 OTHERS OF TR4SH M0BS!!!111!!" hence even it is better with just one stat, sucking compared to rest...

 

 

Message Edited by selch on 04-27-2006 07:52 AM

[zabor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_manyou should take some courses in argumentation theory

Message Edited by zaboron on 04-27-2006 05:02 PM

[Dfoley3]

If i remember correctly (or scroll up), your an gaiges point was no legendary quest reward should be better then a raid drop.Well relic, the "trash" of all raid drops is easily better in EVER aspect. So then you mention a contested mob that has worse loot then relic. Ok fair enough, but not every item from a contested is better then instanced items. Loot from Zek and bps from MotM were better then any contested loot in t5, in t6, the best monk items came from instances. Yet another case of contested not having the best loot. Sonys trend, is that the best overal items should come from instances, and contested should have filler items that are at least as good, that way the uber guilds can increase their loot per week. Some contested do hav enice items, dont get me wrong, but if you look at 2 expansions and an original release worth of data....Youll easily see that not all loot from contested is good, some is , some isnt. As with deathtoll, if you think the loot for a certain area is under par for the encounter, feed back it. Im sorry you got crap loot from hurricanous, but back in the day barakah and simyahk took enourmous amounts of trials to figure out, and in the end, using water to bug the flux trivialized the encounter. And guess what, they still drop sub par loot some times....As for your math, 24 people spending 10 hrs each, is the same as one person spending 10 hrs, time doesnt multiply by the number of people u have working. Otherwise i could say it took 17 hrs * 6 people minumum to do the quest line. The quest arms arent that over powered. Infact they are under powered compared to the mage/ priest version which has 400+ to all resiss and 600 to fire....is losing 30 mitigation worth gaining over 3k in resists? i dont thnk so.Deathtoll loot is getting upgraded, lycium is harder now, there will be 4 instanced raids to do (not counting harla dar, or ascent), calling for nerfs of an item that is CLEARLY not > trash t7 (rellic) is just redonkulous.ALSO since a few of you seem to forget.... item designers have stated (not an exact quote) "not all items will be the same, you will need to trade off mitigation for stats/resists" this was in refrence to terrorantula bp. And its clearly true in t7, morguard has mentioned it a few times in refrence to t7 items....and looking at the shoulders listed.....some have 3-3.5k resists and 315ish mitsome have 600 resists and 340 mitsome have 60 to stats, 68, 70, and 80Im sure if you put it on an excell sheet youd see "oh so if i wear this shoulder i gain 3k resists, power, and +4 to stats but i lose 30 mitg"

Message Edited by Dfoley323 on 04-27-2006 08:07 AM

[Kinless]

Just to clarify,  2 peices of Excarnate drop off trash mobs. Gloves Bracers The shoulders drop off a named before the Alzid Prime, Vymm fight. So, re-evaluate your arguments accordingly.

[Xxooo-Coav]

You cant please everyone.

In truth, if you want something truly nerfed... take it to the people who can do something about it. Dont bring it here to the boards. You are only going to [Removed for Content] people off. Do you really like inciting wars or something? [Removed for Content]!..

I assume this all started because a fabled item was looted, only to find out it wasnt a upgrade. OMG... how could that be? How could you have been denied to be even more uberer???????

/sigh....

[Rrawl]

BLAH. How about we get rid of Legendary and Fabled labels entirely, that don't mean a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing.  OMGZ that Fabled Bixie Stinger that's still floating around is so subpar!!! While we're at it let's compare a Fabled Rubicite weapon to the legendary crafted counterpart...

The shoulders are fine reward for the quest required to do them. If some of the gear dropping from some of the raid mobs isn't, then state your opinions as such. Its really not going to matter anyway, because the devs will do what they want. We all tooted our horns over and over again about how subpar the Ashen Disciple Gi stats are for the level required to wear and the mobs to defeat to get it... but oh well.

Let's nerf the Queen's Carapace while we're at it, it's got too much Mit and! resists for legendary... Oh and the Manacles of the Dark Sky have too nice a proc, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] those things are only level 60 gear! Oh but you don't care about those at all, because they aren't competing for the 'moster uberest piece of gear for that slot'... Get over yourselves, it's a game. Try and enjoy it, and if the shoulders dropping from some of the Raid Mobs are underpowered in your opinion, /feedback it and go on your merry way. Just because this quest reward is a good piece of loot doesn't make them crap either...

[Gaige]

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Dfoley323 wrote:
So let me get this straight.

A reward from about 17 quests that takes minimum, probably 14-20 hrs to get to, shouldnt be compareable to items that can be gotten with a 1 group raid in 1-2 min?  Nope, it shouldn't.  A monk can solo almost all of those, but even if you can't you can do them with 6 people.  A raid takes 24 people to do, even if the particular mob dies in only 2mins the raid certainly isn't accomplished that fast. 

Combine that with the fact that when you are raiding for items there is no guarantee you'll ever get it.  I probably raided Ahket Aken at least 20 on my monk (many of them as the only brawler in the raid or one with the highest DKP) and I never got the Gi of the Dark Disciple.

Any brawler who does this quest line will get these shoulders.  Every single brawler on every server of the appropriate level can get them if they want.

Relic - trash - can drop from farm groups in lab/lycieum, all it takes is 1 rellic patter... has 110 more power, more resists, and more mit
thats right noobs, relic has more mit.   140/3 + 314 = 360 mit  It has more mit against slashing damage, not against crushing and piercing.

those arms may come from a quest line that can be soloed up to that point but ur looking at 40-50 hrs of soloing to get there.  Where as 1 group of decent geared raiders can get rellic arms.....so yeah pls be quiet and do some math  Again, the time investment doesn't matter because it doesn't compare to the time investment required to raid.

Combine that with, like I said, the fact that oh my guild has done every instance that drops relic since KoS came out (and DT since we got access three weeks ago) and we've seen relic leather shoulders... never.  However we had 12 people finish the appropriate Claymore quest last night and every single one of them got their own set of claymore shoulders at the same time.

I don't care if you agree, because opinions vary and everyone is entitled to their own, but the shoulders are too good.

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[Gaige]

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Dfoley323 wrote:
the best monk items came from instances. Yet another case of contested not having the best loot.

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In T5 and T6 it could be argued that the best monk loot came off of contested.  Lord Nagalik and the PoF dragons to be specific.  Even if you want to say in T6 the best monk loot came from PoS and DMP - I can agree.

However both of those are raid instances and they were crazy hard.

Claymore quest is neither.

[Shankonia]

Name of the game is Everquest, not Everraid even though some us play it like it is.  On my toon, at this point in time I am out of quests to do EXCEPT quests that involve killing Epic foes.

It only seems logical to me that these "overpowered" shoulders were put into the game at just the right place on the road of progression - a progression that "we the uber raider" has already

progressed beyond - a place where raiding becomes necessary to advance.  Keep in mind, we raiders are the vast minority.

 

Granted, I raid and I have pretty good gear to kill Epics - but what if I didn't?  Could these overpowerd shoulders be the stepping stone for a non-raiding guild to become one?  Do they aid

in progressing to the next step in the Claymore quest?  Do they help a recruit stay alive during a raid while he's still noober?  Yes, they do.

 

I've had my shoulders for a long while, and I don't even use them unless i'm raiding or deuling a bruiser, or just popping them on then off for the HP - NEVER.  Mancles of Dark Sky for the win, every single time unless what i'm fighting is immune to stiffle.

 

Don't get me wrong - I do not feel as though they should be the most powerful leather shoulders in the game - but understand that I do not beleive they are. 

 

In my guild I often here reference to "Primary Gear" or we are instructed to put it on.  I have some items, such as weapons that ar primary, but everything else is situational for me - especially during raids.

The fact that I must swap gear to fit my group setup and the enemy I am fighting in order to win think is necessary to play the game - especially for fighters.

 

Seems there is alot of bickering over nothing to me. 

 

[Anjin]

The plate reward for the same quest has over 200 more mitigation than the leather version (552 vs 343) with all the other stats being the same.  Are other fighter classes shouting 'Nerf'?

 

Anjin

Message Edited by Herbster on 04-27-2006 08:14 PM