Dragonbreath Adjustment

Grabaan · 03-02-2006, 11:56 PM

From the March 2nd patch notes:Combat:- Monk: Dragonbreath's arc area effect deals slightly less overall damage.Being just shy of 65 myself at this time, it's hard for me to comment if it was overpowered or not.Oh well. We march forward.I'll love the class no matter what they do to it.- Grabaan

Stryyfe · 03-03-2006, 12:05 AM

Another hit in the nuts, This is the ability I was looking forward to the most, even over all AA's. To do AOE damage finally and get a bit higher on the dps chain...

As you say, Monks still rule though.

Stryyfe · 03-03-2006, 12:15 AM

Can anyone link the Before and After damage of this? I'm at work can't login. How much difference are we talking?

Asheng · 03-03-2006, 12:38 AM

adapt 3 i think i was hitting 147 max dmg on the spell, now it's at 107 dmg.

Asheng · 03-03-2006, 12:40 AM

oh god they hit it bad, nm it was at 10 sec duration 1tick per sec, now it's 8 seconds as well as dmg nerf. Before minimum was over 100. now adapt 3 is 87-107. Thats weak.It was also a 1 min recast, now it's 1min 30sec. sigh.This irks me, It was nice to finally have a decent ae that did good dmg. I don't understand in the least, how it was overpowered before. Now it's just gimpy. at max we'll now do 800 dmg. that is down from 1400ish. thats nearly a 50% nerf if you don't take in the extra 30 sec cast time on it now.

Message Edited by Ashengur on 03-02-200602:45 PM

Grabaan · 03-03-2006, 12:47 AM

A little more drastic than I expected... But still not a game breaker for me.I'm sure the change is to bring us back into the intended DPS range when compared to other classes. My guess is we were probably stepping on scout toes in the previous incarnation.I do dislike, however, how they fail to mention timer changes... Kind of implies some shame involved in altering it if you don't fess up.Not that I really care long term, but if you change it, be upfront about it. Long term much more people appreciate being told straight up about these things than for it to be surfaced later.- Grab

Asheng · 03-03-2006, 01:03 AM

with it, and grouping with a swashie in my normal exp group, i do around 400-500 dps, swash is consistently over 600. I don't see them nerfing bruiser abilities :p

Silmap · 03-03-2006, 02:27 AM

In a raid a few days ago the bruiser and I were parsing close to 775 and 700dps respectively in a Courts raid. Now- this is mostly due to having a melee oriented group make up to mazimize dps,haste and melee procs. I really don't see a need to tinker with the monk dps.-GizawijtMistmoore

Asheng · 03-03-2006, 02:31 AM

as maintank with full dps amd melee buffs on raid I hit 700-800 dps without dragonbreath heh But your talking a lot of buffs, dps and str.

TheHidden · 03-03-2006, 04:28 AM

I for one am rather dissapintedwhen i looked on market last time (master 1)the stats read. 128-161 damage instanly and evyer second. for ten seconds. thats 11 hits to the targets. a 1 minute recast timer.nice. hooray for once i was really really looking forwards to that i means its like half the damage of certain other class skills SMILEY

today. 101-123 instantly and every second for 8 seconds.quick calculations take that from roughtly 1500-1800 to 900-1200 over the skill duration. i mean sure it wont matter to much to themonk class int he long run. but it still feels like a kick in the face. i mean sitll looking forwards to the skill but..sheesh. what a hit.. roughly a 40% nerf. thats without taking into account the actual recast increase of 50%. which acutlly means we loose an additiona 700-900 (before nerf) / 450 - 600(after nerf).no matter how you see it. this is a freaking HUGE nerf to an ancient teaching skill (which in my opinion is mean tto be uber..all in all this skill now does less damage than the level 59 frozen palm over the use of use of 90 seconds (can cast freezing palm 4 times in 90 seconds. adept 3 was up in the 739 for max. so 2520 damage potential for a 59 skill. now does that seem inline with you guys?.i think this actualy nerf is way below par. considering its new tier. and the fact that its our class special. had it been left alone it would have fit in rather nicely. (and still do less max damage)/melekai

Message Edited by TheHidden on 03-02-200603:39 PM

RyanTSi · 03-03-2006, 05:09 AM

at least they lowered the power cost on it a little

Siberia2 · 03-03-2006, 05:12 AM

Even beyond the damage the part of the spell I have to question it's usefullness. Increase casting times of anyone hit? First off it's bugged and says it reduces it, secondly what's the point? Instead of taking 1 second to use a 14k CA on the tank, the mob takes 1.5 seconds to slam the tank for 14k? And then you reduce the damage aspect of it, and increase the recast?Oh well, it could be worse. Our marquee could be juggernaut.

KnowH · 03-03-2006, 06:29 AM

Bleah, it does a little less damage, oh well. It's still awesome for controlling agro of group encs and multiple encounters. I don't really use it to maximize DPS, but rather as an aid in tanking. The coolest aspect, as far as I'm concerned, is that it's practically insta cast/recast. Thus for situations where you're waiting for a mob to spawn and you want to grab agro before it darts to the healer, then spam Dragon Breath. This would be perfect for catching the Ghosts of Dawn that summon Sunchild (granted if court of al afaz is scowling to you, it's a moot point), you just stand behind the pool and spam it until the three mobs pop and in one shot you've got agro on all three. I think this was meant more as a utility for tanking than a DPS art, so I wouldn't care if it did 50 damage.

x0rtrun · 03-03-2006, 08:27 AM

I think guardians complainign about fire breathing mons had a little something to do with it. It was one of the better new t7 skills, and as we all know, no one is allowed to be too cool in eq2.

Cwi · 03-03-2006, 08:43 PM

Blackguard wrote:
-Monk: Dragonbreath's arc area effect deals slightly less overall damage

Prenerf Dragonbreath Master 1 did a minimum/maximum of 1408/1771 and had a 60 second recast time. So over the course of an encounter it would add 23/30 dps.Post-nerf Dragonbreath Master 1 does a min/max of 909/1107 and has a 90 second recast time. So over the course of an encounter it does 10/12 dps.The post-nerf Dragonbreath Master minimum dps is 43% of the prenerf minimum, and the post-nerf maximum dps is 40% of prenerf maximum.This is the Dev's idea of slightly less? When I read the update notes I expected to see the post-nerf damage around 80-90% of the prenerf. My jaw literally dropped when I fully realized just how much this ability had been nerfed.Devs, if you want to nerf an ability by a huge amount thats your decision, but be honest with us. Part of your job is determining if certain combat arts/spells need to be adjusted up or down to make the classes fit properly into the DPS tiers and we understand that. However, we don't appreciate it when you try to pass a huge decrease in damage off as "slightly less overall damage."

Message Edited by Cwiyk on 03-03-200609:44 AM

DarkerApprenti · 03-03-2006, 08:54 PM

But now guardians get a tsunami like ability...they should be happy and leave us alone. =)

x0rtrunks wrote:I think guardians complainign about fire breathing mons had a little something to do with it. It was one of the better new t7 skills, and as we all know, no one is allowed to be too cool in eq2.

PantherXX · 03-03-2006, 09:02 PM

The thing that really gets me is that I struggle to even come close to a zerker in damage in most cases! Against groups, forgetaboutit. But even when a zerker is tanking and I am "DPS" i have trouble keeping up with him against even single targets. It drives me nuts that everytime we get something that could help our DPS, it just gets nerfed.

Silmap · 03-03-2006, 10:32 PM

I am not sure why you might have problems keeping up with a zerker DPS wise. I can blow right past a zerker. Is there a large gear/level disparity? Usually the only people that are doing more damage consistanly are conjurers and assassins. Other DPS classes it depends on what we are fighting, resists, etc. The longer the fight the higher our average outbound DPS will be as our auto-attack output plays a bigger part.I will post some ACT comparisons when I get home.--GizawijtMistmoore

Stryyfe · 03-03-2006, 10:56 PM

Cwiyk wrote:
Blackguard wrote:
-Monk: Dragonbreath's arc area effect deals slightly less overall damage
Prenerf Dragonbreath Master 1 did a minimum/maximum of 1408/1771 and had a 60 second recast time. So over the course of an encounter it would add 23/30 dps.Post-nerf Dragonbreath Master 1 does a min/max of 909/1107 and has a 90 second recast time. So over the course of an encounter it does 10/12 dps.The post-nerf Dragonbreath Master minimum dps is 43% of the prenerf minimum, and the post-nerf maximum dps is 40% of prenerf maximum.This is the Dev's idea of slightly less? When I read the update notes I expected to see the post-nerf damage around 80-90% of the prenerf. My jaw literally dropped when I fully realized just how much this ability had been nerfed.Devs, if you want to nerf an ability by a huge amount thats your decision, but be honest with us. Part of your job is determining if certain combat arts/spells need to be adjusted up or down to make the classes fit properly into the DPS tiers and we understand that. However, we don't appreciate it when you try to pass a huge decrease in damage off as "slightly less overall damage."
Message Edited by Cwiyk on 03-03-200609:44 AM

I could not have said this better. I do not mind the reduction in damage per tick... The major problem is it's now 2 less ticks duration, and 30 seconds longer to recast, that is absolutley inexcusable. I challenge Blackguard or Moorguard to respond to this with any form of sense.

The ability was placed into the game for monks, it was dested by devs, it was beta tested by players, and it was released into the playable version of the game... and THEN it was reduced, again, I challenge you to make this make sense in any fashion.

We do not mind if it does 30-50 less damage per tick and you say its gonna do slightley less overall damage... That's kindof like selling me a car and telling me it's topspeed was 200mph, when really it's only 195... thats acceptable.

However, 2 less ticks and 50% increase in the re-use? This is an insane reduction, 2 less ticks and less damage would be acceptable if you left it at 60 seconds re-use. But all three at once for the most anticipated Skill for Monk's to date? Come on now, again I challenge you to show how this is reasonable, as a matter of fact.. why doesn't Mr. Smedley get on here himself and tell me why one of the best skills ive ever seen for a class on my 7 years of playing Everquest (and no this does NOT mean overpowered) was completley dismantled after testing?

Message Edited by Stryyfe on 03-03-200609:58 AM

Gaige · 03-03-2006, 11:21 PM

Stryyfe wrote:
I could not have said this better. I do not mind the reduction in damage per tick... The major problem is it's now 2 less ticks duration, and 30 seconds longer to recast, that is absolutley inexcusable. I challenge Blackguard or Moorguard to respond to this with any form of sense.
The ability was placed into the game for monks, it was dested by devs, it was beta tested by players, and it was released into the playable version of the game... and THEN it was reduced, again, I challenge you to make this make sense in any fashion. Kind of like Bolster, eh?
We do not mind if it does 30-50 less damage per tick and you say its gonna do slightley less overall damage... That's kindof like selling me a car and telling me it's topspeed was 200mph, when really it's only 195... thats acceptable. Quit saying "we". You aren't talking for me, you're talking for you.
Why doesn't Mr. Smedley get on here himself and tell me why one of the best skills ive ever seen for a class on my 7 years of playing Everquest (and no this does NOT mean overpowered) was completley dismantled after testing? Heh, you're pretty obtuse considering your experience and invested playtime in MMOs. It was changed because further testing with a wider audience showed it to be not inline with intended design, that's why it was changed. Plenty of stuff is changed everyday. How about the upcoming slashing/piercing addition to our stances since they are changing the fact that we can skillup and use those skills now. As for Smedly he is probably too busy delivering Krispy Kremes to opinionated web comics to respond.

I don't see how the changes were class threatening or amazingly horrible, personally.

Stryyfe · 03-03-2006, 11:33 PM

Gaige wrote:
Stryyfe wrote:
I could not have said this better. I do not mind the reduction in damage per tick... The major problem is it's now 2 less ticks duration, and 30 seconds longer to recast, that is absolutley inexcusable. I challenge Blackguard or Moorguard to respond to this with any form of sense.
The ability was placed into the game for monks, it was dested by devs, it was beta tested by players, and it was released into the playable version of the game... and THEN it was reduced, again, I challenge you to make this make sense in any fashion. Kind of like Bolster, eh?
We do not mind if it does 30-50 less damage per tick and you say its gonna do slightley less overall damage... That's kindof like selling me a car and telling me it's topspeed was 200mph, when really it's only 195... thats acceptable. Quit saying "we". You aren't talking for me, you're talking for you.
You're right... please replace we with Alot of us. I personally mind, however as an overall consensus so far it seems what has bothered the Monk population the most is the re-use timer increase. We're not talking 10 seconds here.
Why doesn't Mr. Smedley get on here himself and tell me why one of the best skills ive ever seen for a class on my 7 years of playing Everquest (and no this does NOT mean overpowered) was completley dismantled after testing? Heh, you're pretty obtuse considering your experience and invested playtime in MMOs. It was changed because further testing with a wider audience showed it to be not inline with intended design, that's why it was changed. Plenty of stuff is changed everyday. How about the upcoming slashing/piercing addition to our stances since they are changing the fact that we can skillup and use those skills now. As for Smedly he is probably too busy delivering Krispy Kremes to opinionated web comics to respond.
I have 10 years beyond the 7 ive played EQ, playing, designing and coding online MUDS as well. I'm not being Obtuse in the least. I understand a need to see how a skill is going to play out with a mass user-base using it in real-time situations. This was done in Beta, and you were there. I can also justify for the most part, the need to change it after it's been fully released to the public. What cannot be justified is the level of reduction, this is drastic, not slight, it's a tad bit extreme.
Reduction in damage, not serious, reduction of ticks to 8, not serious. This combined with a re-use timer increase from 60 seconds to 90 seconds... is obsurd, and once again, there is no reasonable defense for the change, it wasn't over-powered, and neither were monks. There was alot of us out there, probably a majority that was looking forward to this Skill being great. I asked Ledbetter (who I view as a person with a great opinion for the Monk class.. he said it was a horrible change as well)
Actually, I believe he used the words... "i'm freakin [Removed for Content]" ... you Obviously disagree with the magnitude it was changed as well. And I agree with you on Mr. Smed more and more.
I don't see how the changes were class threatening or amazingly horrible, personally.
It's the fact of the matter. It was a drastic change, but you're entitled to your opinion and how it affects you, no worries there.

PantherXX · 03-04-2006, 03:51 AM

I realize I am getting a little off topic with the zerker thing, but in a grp with a ranger, a wizard, me, a fury, another healer, and the zerker, the zerker was constantly at the top of my parses with ACT during a Nest run. I (at lvl 61) was running in the neighborhood of 250-300 DPS, depending on how much I was paying attention. The zerker was two levels above *me*, but at the same lvls as the wizzy and the ranger and was constantly tying or beating them. (Now there may still be an issue with rangers and ACT in that their poison damage is not parsed properly, so I hear.) I don't mean this to be an anti-zerker rant or nerf call, and frankly maybe he is just a very good zerker (also had the Kettle dude's katana which is a pretty nice wep). I just hate to see things nerfed ...

My whinning aside however, had I not been parsing, I really would not have known and could have cared lessed. I am pretty happy with my toon overall and the way things have gone. Sometimes parsing can just take the fun out of things. :smileyvery-happy:

Devolux · 03-06-2006, 08:31 AM

The damage decrease on this skill is fine.However the cast time increase makes it worthless. As it stands it is an out of encounter AE which makes it situation at best - it should be a 30 sec recast at same damage lvl.OR - Make it in encounter AE - at 30sec just like our other AE. Monks need a boost AE and this should be in - not a gimped 1:30 recast situational ability.

Shankonia · 03-06-2006, 08:51 PM

Most of you who complained about the damage reduction of this spell i'm thinking probably havn't even used it yet. IMO, it is our version of an AE taunt. Unless i'm tanking I really have to watch when I use dragonbreath and have even had other tanks tell me "If I see fire come out of your mouth one more time......"

Saw the Master 1 on the broker yesterday and didn't buy it simply because I think the added damage might hurt a little more than it helps while grping at the moment.

I dunno....maybe the fact that i've been grinding AA's while everyone else has been grinding levels has something to do with it (Sta & Wis line - lovin it).

Asheng · 03-07-2006, 06:09 AM

I had dragonsbreath before they changed and after.There is a big difference. I maintank a lot, and yes it's great for aggro, but it's even worse now.I don't think anyone had a problem with a change too i. It's the fact that they say a small change, then make 3 big ones :p.Just give us back the 1 min timer.

TheHidden · 03-07-2006, 08:24 AM

at least give us back the timer of one min!. 90 seconds sucks SMILEY

/mel

Stryyfe · 03-07-2006, 09:16 PM

At this point, I would be ok with 60 second timer. Although Ideally, back to 10 ticks as well.

Nemi · 03-08-2006, 08:12 PM

What gripes me is the terminology.

We had a skill doing approx. 26.5 DPS that went to 11.2 DPS

"slightly less" does not seem to be right when we're talking about a 58% reduction in overall effectiveness. SoE must know that people keep track of these stats and they can't hide anything, so why then they choose to insult people by labelling it as such is beyond me, it is simply poor customer relations.

And for those that say it could be a bug, well fine but it happens altogether far too often to explain it as a bug. SoE need to look long and hard at their communications with clients, i.e. us.

03-03-2006, 12:38 AM	#4
Asheng Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Alexandria, Va Posts: 109	adapt 3 i think i was hitting 147 max dmg on the spell, now it's at 107 dmg. __________________ Ashrar 70 Kerran Monk, Unrest Enlightened Dark

03-03-2006, 12:40 AM	#5
Asheng Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Alexandria, Va Posts: 109	oh god they hit it bad, nm it was at 10 sec duration 1tick per sec, now it's 8 seconds as well as dmg nerf. Before minimum was over 100. now adapt 3 is 87-107. Thats weak.It was also a 1 min recast, now it's 1min 30sec. sigh.This irks me, It was nice to finally have a decent ae that did good dmg. I don't understand in the least, how it was overpowered before. Now it's just gimpy. at max we'll now do 800 dmg. that is down from 1400ish. thats nearly a 50% nerf if you don't take in the extra 30 sec cast time on it now. Message Edited by Ashengur on 03-02-200602:45 PM __________________ Ashrar 70 Kerran Monk, Unrest Enlightened Dark

03-03-2006, 01:03 AM	#7
Asheng Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Alexandria, Va Posts: 109	with it, and grouping with a swashie in my normal exp group, i do around 400-500 dps, swash is consistently over 600. I don't see them nerfing bruiser abilities :p __________________ Ashrar 70 Kerran Monk, Unrest Enlightened Dark

03-03-2006, 02:31 AM	#9
Asheng Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Alexandria, Va Posts: 109	as maintank with full dps amd melee buffs on raid I hit 700-800 dps without dragonbreath heh But your talking a lot of buffs, dps and str. __________________ Ashrar 70 Kerran Monk, Unrest Enlightened Dark

03-03-2006, 04:28 AM	#10
TheHidden Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 46	I for one am rather dissapintedwhen i looked on market last time (master 1)the stats read. 128-161 damage instanly and evyer second. for ten seconds. thats 11 hits to the targets. a 1 minute recast timer.nice. hooray for once i was really really looking forwards to that i means its like half the damage of certain other class skillstoday. 101-123 instantly and every second for 8 seconds.quick calculations take that from roughtly 1500-1800 to 900-1200 over the skill duration. i mean sure it wont matter to much to themonk class int he long run. but it still feels like a kick in the face. i mean sitll looking forwards to the skill but..sheesh. what a hit.. roughly a 40% nerf. thats without taking into account the actual recast increase of 50%. which acutlly means we loose an additiona 700-900 (before nerf) / 450 - 600(after nerf).no matter how you see it. this is a freaking HUGE nerf to an ancient teaching skill (which in my opinion is mean tto be uber..all in all this skill now does less damage than the level 59 frozen palm over the use of use of 90 seconds (can cast freezing palm 4 times in 90 seconds. adept 3 was up in the 739 for max. so 2520 damage potential for a 59 skill. now does that seem inline with you guys?.i think this actualy nerf is way below par. considering its new tier. and the fact that its our class special. had it been left alone it would have fit in rather nicely. (and still do less max damage)/melekai Message Edited by TheHidden on 03-02-200603:39 PM

03-02-2006, 11:56 PM	#1
Grabaan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 135	From the March 2nd patch notes:Combat:- Monk: Dragonbreath's arc area effect deals slightly less overall damage.Being just shy of 65 myself at this time, it's hard for me to comment if it was overpowered or not.Oh well. We march forward.I'll love the class no matter what they do to it.- Grabaan

03-03-2006, 12:05 AM	#2
Stryyfe Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 149	Another hit in the nuts, This is the ability I was looking forward to the most, even over all AA's. To do AOE damage finally and get a bit higher on the dps chain... As you say, Monks still rule though.

03-03-2006, 12:15 AM	#3
Stryyfe Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 149	Can anyone link the Before and After damage of this? I'm at work can't login. How much difference are we talking?

03-03-2006, 12:47 AM	#6
Grabaan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 135	A little more drastic than I expected... But still not a game breaker for me.I'm sure the change is to bring us back into the intended DPS range when compared to other classes. My guess is we were probably stepping on scout toes in the previous incarnation.I do dislike, however, how they fail to mention timer changes... Kind of implies some shame involved in altering it if you don't fess up.Not that I really care long term, but if you change it, be upfront about it. Long term much more people appreciate being told straight up about these things than for it to be surfaced later.- Grab

03-03-2006, 02:27 AM	#8
Silmap General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4	In a raid a few days ago the bruiser and I were parsing close to 775 and 700dps respectively in a Courts raid. Now- this is mostly due to having a melee oriented group make up to mazimize dps,haste and melee procs. I really don't see a need to tinker with the monk dps.-GizawijtMistmoore

03-03-2006, 05:09 AM	#11
RyanTSi Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 207	at least they lowered the power cost on it a little __________________

03-03-2006, 05:12 AM	#12
Siberia2 General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 91	Even beyond the damage the part of the spell I have to question it's usefullness. Increase casting times of anyone hit? First off it's bugged and says it reduces it, secondly what's the point? Instead of taking 1 second to use a 14k CA on the tank, the mob takes 1.5 seconds to slam the tank for 14k? And then you reduce the damage aspect of it, and increase the recast?Oh well, it could be worse. Our marquee could be juggernaut. __________________

03-03-2006, 06:29 AM	#13
KnowH Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 146	Bleah, it does a little less damage, oh well. It's still awesome for controlling agro of group encs and multiple encounters. I don't really use it to maximize DPS, but rather as an aid in tanking. The coolest aspect, as far as I'm concerned, is that it's practically insta cast/recast. Thus for situations where you're waiting for a mob to spawn and you want to grab agro before it darts to the healer, then spam Dragon Breath. This would be perfect for catching the Ghosts of Dawn that summon Sunchild (granted if court of al afaz is scowling to you, it's a moot point), you just stand behind the pool and spam it until the three mobs pop and in one shot you've got agro on all three. I think this was meant more as a utility for tanking than a DPS art, so I wouldn't care if it did 50 damage. __________________

03-03-2006, 08:27 AM	#14
x0rtrun General Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 904	I think guardians complainign about fire breathing mons had a little something to do with it. It was one of the better new t7 skills, and as we all know, no one is allowed to be too cool in eq2. __________________

03-03-2006, 08:43 PM	#15
Cwi Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 187	Blackguard wrote: -Monk: Dragonbreath's arc area effect deals slightly less overall damage Prenerf Dragonbreath Master 1 did a minimum/maximum of 1408/1771 and had a 60 second recast time. So over the course of an encounter it would add 23/30 dps.Post-nerf Dragonbreath Master 1 does a min/max of 909/1107 and has a 90 second recast time. So over the course of an encounter it does 10/12 dps.The post-nerf Dragonbreath Master minimum dps is 43% of the prenerf minimum, and the post-nerf maximum dps is 40% of prenerf maximum.This is the Dev's idea of slightly less? When I read the update notes I expected to see the post-nerf damage around 80-90% of the prenerf. My jaw literally dropped when I fully realized just how much this ability had been nerfed.Devs, if you want to nerf an ability by a huge amount thats your decision, but be honest with us. Part of your job is determining if certain combat arts/spells need to be adjusted up or down to make the classes fit properly into the DPS tiers and we understand that. However, we don't appreciate it when you try to pass a huge decrease in damage off as "slightly less overall damage." Message Edited by Cwiyk on 03-03-200609:44 AM __________________

03-03-2006, 08:54 PM	#16
DarkerApprenti Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 62	But now guardians get a tsunami like ability...they should be happy and leave us alone. =) x0rtrunks wrote:I think guardians complainign about fire breathing mons had a little something to do with it. It was one of the better new t7 skills, and as we all know, no one is allowed to be too cool in eq2. __________________

03-03-2006, 09:02 PM	#17
PantherXX Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 127	The thing that really gets me is that I struggle to even come close to a zerker in damage in most cases! Against groups, forgetaboutit. But even when a zerker is tanking and I am "DPS" i have trouble keeping up with him against even single targets. It drives me nuts that everytime we get something that could help our DPS, it just gets nerfed. __________________

03-03-2006, 10:32 PM	#18
Silmap General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4	I am not sure why you might have problems keeping up with a zerker DPS wise. I can blow right past a zerker. Is there a large gear/level disparity? Usually the only people that are doing more damage consistanly are conjurers and assassins. Other DPS classes it depends on what we are fighting, resists, etc. The longer the fight the higher our average outbound DPS will be as our auto-attack output plays a bigger part.I will post some ACT comparisons when I get home.--GizawijtMistmoore

03-03-2006, 10:56 PM	#19
Stryyfe Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 149	Cwiyk wrote: Blackguard wrote: -Monk: Dragonbreath's arc area effect deals slightly less overall damage Prenerf Dragonbreath Master 1 did a minimum/maximum of 1408/1771 and had a 60 second recast time. So over the course of an encounter it would add 23/30 dps.Post-nerf Dragonbreath Master 1 does a min/max of 909/1107 and has a 90 second recast time. So over the course of an encounter it does 10/12 dps.The post-nerf Dragonbreath Master minimum dps is 43% of the prenerf minimum, and the post-nerf maximum dps is 40% of prenerf maximum.This is the Dev's idea of slightly less? When I read the update notes I expected to see the post-nerf damage around 80-90% of the prenerf. My jaw literally dropped when I fully realized just how much this ability had been nerfed.Devs, if you want to nerf an ability by a huge amount thats your decision, but be honest with us. Part of your job is determining if certain combat arts/spells need to be adjusted up or down to make the classes fit properly into the DPS tiers and we understand that. However, we don't appreciate it when you try to pass a huge decrease in damage off as "slightly less overall damage." Message Edited by Cwiyk on 03-03-200609:44 AM I could not have said this better. I do not mind the reduction in damage per tick... The major problem is it's now 2 less ticks duration, and 30 seconds longer to recast, that is absolutley inexcusable. I challenge Blackguard or Moorguard to respond to this with any form of sense. The ability was placed into the game for monks, it was dested by devs, it was beta tested by players, and it was released into the playable version of the game... and THEN it was reduced, again, I challenge you to make this make sense in any fashion. We do not mind if it does 30-50 less damage per tick and you say its gonna do slightley less overall damage... That's kindof like selling me a car and telling me it's topspeed was 200mph, when really it's only 195... thats acceptable. However, 2 less ticks and 50% increase in the re-use? This is an insane reduction, 2 less ticks and less damage would be acceptable if you left it at 60 seconds re-use. But all three at once for the most anticipated Skill for Monk's to date? Come on now, again I challenge you to show how this is reasonable, as a matter of fact.. why doesn't Mr. Smedley get on here himself and tell me why one of the best skills ive ever seen for a class on my 7 years of playing Everquest (and no this does NOT mean overpowered) was completley dismantled after testing? Message Edited by Stryyfe on 03-03-200609:58 AM

03-03-2006, 11:21 PM	#20
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Stryyfe wrote: I could not have said this better. I do not mind the reduction in damage per tick... The major problem is it's now 2 less ticks duration, and 30 seconds longer to recast, that is absolutley inexcusable. I challenge Blackguard or Moorguard to respond to this with any form of sense. The ability was placed into the game for monks, it was dested by devs, it was beta tested by players, and it was released into the playable version of the game... and THEN it was reduced, again, I challenge you to make this make sense in any fashion. Kind of like Bolster, eh? We do not mind if it does 30-50 less damage per tick and you say its gonna do slightley less overall damage... That's kindof like selling me a car and telling me it's topspeed was 200mph, when really it's only 195... thats acceptable. Quit saying "we". You aren't talking for me, you're talking for you. Why doesn't Mr. Smedley get on here himself and tell me why one of the best skills ive ever seen for a class on my 7 years of playing Everquest (and no this does NOT mean overpowered) was completley dismantled after testing? Heh, you're pretty obtuse considering your experience and invested playtime in MMOs. It was changed because further testing with a wider audience showed it to be not inline with intended design, that's why it was changed. Plenty of stuff is changed everyday. How about the upcoming slashing/piercing addition to our stances since they are changing the fact that we can skillup and use those skills now. As for Smedly he is probably too busy delivering Krispy Kremes to opinionated web comics to respond. I don't see how the changes were class threatening or amazingly horrible, personally. __________________

03-03-2006, 11:33 PM	#21
Stryyfe Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 149	Gaige wrote: Stryyfe wrote: I could not have said this better. I do not mind the reduction in damage per tick... The major problem is it's now 2 less ticks duration, and 30 seconds longer to recast, that is absolutley inexcusable. I challenge Blackguard or Moorguard to respond to this with any form of sense. The ability was placed into the game for monks, it was dested by devs, it was beta tested by players, and it was released into the playable version of the game... and THEN it was reduced, again, I challenge you to make this make sense in any fashion. Kind of like Bolster, eh? We do not mind if it does 30-50 less damage per tick and you say its gonna do slightley less overall damage... That's kindof like selling me a car and telling me it's topspeed was 200mph, when really it's only 195... thats acceptable. Quit saying "we". You aren't talking for me, you're talking for you. You're right... please replace we with Alot of us. I personally mind, however as an overall consensus so far it seems what has bothered the Monk population the most is the re-use timer increase. We're not talking 10 seconds here. Why doesn't Mr. Smedley get on here himself and tell me why one of the best skills ive ever seen for a class on my 7 years of playing Everquest (and no this does NOT mean overpowered) was completley dismantled after testing? Heh, you're pretty obtuse considering your experience and invested playtime in MMOs. It was changed because further testing with a wider audience showed it to be not inline with intended design, that's why it was changed. Plenty of stuff is changed everyday. How about the upcoming slashing/piercing addition to our stances since they are changing the fact that we can skillup and use those skills now. As for Smedly he is probably too busy delivering Krispy Kremes to opinionated web comics to respond. I have 10 years beyond the 7 ive played EQ, playing, designing and coding online MUDS as well. I'm not being Obtuse in the least. I understand a need to see how a skill is going to play out with a mass user-base using it in real-time situations. This was done in Beta, and you were there. I can also justify for the most part, the need to change it after it's been fully released to the public. What cannot be justified is the level of reduction, this is drastic, not slight, it's a tad bit extreme. Reduction in damage, not serious, reduction of ticks to 8, not serious. This combined with a re-use timer increase from 60 seconds to 90 seconds... is obsurd, and once again, there is no reasonable defense for the change, it wasn't over-powered, and neither were monks. There was alot of us out there, probably a majority that was looking forward to this Skill being great. I asked Ledbetter (who I view as a person with a great opinion for the Monk class.. he said it was a horrible change as well) Actually, I believe he used the words... "i'm freakin [Removed for Content]" ... you Obviously disagree with the magnitude it was changed as well. And I agree with you on Mr. Smed more and more. I don't see how the changes were class threatening or amazingly horrible, personally. It's the fact of the matter. It was a drastic change, but you're entitled to your opinion and how it affects you, no worries there.

03-04-2006, 03:51 AM	#22
PantherXX Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 127	I realize I am getting a little off topic with the zerker thing, but in a grp with a ranger, a wizard, me, a fury, another healer, and the zerker, the zerker was constantly at the top of my parses with ACT during a Nest run. I (at lvl 61) was running in the neighborhood of 250-300 DPS, depending on how much I was paying attention. The zerker was two levels above me, but at the same lvls as the wizzy and the ranger and was constantly tying or beating them. (Now there may still be an issue with rangers and ACT in that their poison damage is not parsed properly, so I hear.) I don't mean this to be an anti-zerker rant or nerf call, and frankly maybe he is just a very good zerker (also had the Kettle dude's katana which is a pretty nice wep). I just hate to see things nerfed ... My whinning aside however, had I not been parsing, I really would not have known and could have cared lessed. I am pretty happy with my toon overall and the way things have gone. Sometimes parsing can just take the fun out of things. :smileyvery-happy: __________________

03-06-2006, 08:31 AM	#23
Devolux Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 40	The damage decrease on this skill is fine.However the cast time increase makes it worthless. As it stands it is an out of encounter AE which makes it situation at best - it should be a 30 sec recast at same damage lvl.OR - Make it in encounter AE - at 30sec just like our other AE. Monks need a boost AE and this should be in - not a gimped 1:30 recast situational ability.

03-06-2006, 08:51 PM	#24
Shankonia Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 231	Most of you who complained about the damage reduction of this spell i'm thinking probably havn't even used it yet. IMO, it is our version of an AE taunt. Unless i'm tanking I really have to watch when I use dragonbreath and have even had other tanks tell me "If I see fire come out of your mouth one more time......" Saw the Master 1 on the broker yesterday and didn't buy it simply because I think the added damage might hurt a little more than it helps while grping at the moment. I dunno....maybe the fact that i've been grinding AA's while everyone else has been grinding levels has something to do with it (Sta & Wis line - lovin it).

03-07-2006, 06:09 AM	#25
Asheng Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Alexandria, Va Posts: 109	I had dragonsbreath before they changed and after.There is a big difference. I maintank a lot, and yes it's great for aggro, but it's even worse now.I don't think anyone had a problem with a change too i. It's the fact that they say a small change, then make 3 big ones :p.Just give us back the 1 min timer. __________________ Ashrar 70 Kerran Monk, Unrest Enlightened Dark

03-07-2006, 08:24 AM	#26
TheHidden Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 46	at least give us back the timer of one min!. 90 seconds sucks /mel

03-07-2006, 09:16 PM	#27
Stryyfe Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 149	At this point, I would be ok with 60 second timer. Although Ideally, back to 10 ticks as well.

03-08-2006, 08:12 PM	#28
Nemi Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 603	What gripes me is the terminology. We had a skill doing approx. 26.5 DPS that went to 11.2 DPS "slightly less" does not seem to be right when we're talking about a 58% reduction in overall effectiveness. SoE must know that people keep track of these stats and they can't hide anything, so why then they choose to insult people by labelling it as such is beyond me, it is simply poor customer relations. And for those that say it could be a bug, well fine but it happens altogether far too often to explain it as a bug. SoE need to look long and hard at their communications with clients, i.e. us.