Thoughts/Comments on T7 Itemization - Where are we headed?

Grabaan · 03-01-2006, 01:29 AM

I've been mulling things over the past few days, and I've been thinking about the itemization of the new expansion. I'd like to share a few thoughts and then open up for comments/feedback.I'm not sure if I'm alone in feeling this, but does everyone get a sense of excitement from the legendary and fabled we're seeing in this expansion? There are some really great items coming out that are quite desireable, and a lot of variety at that.But I have a few ideas/notions to toss out:1) These items seem to be vastly "greater" than the items they're replacing, and yet are quite easily obtained - With legendary drops of great equipment seemingly in no danger of limited supply, what does this imply about the T7 raids?My feeling is that we're in for some of the most difficult battles we've faced. I see a trend towards mitigation on jewelry again, I see a trend towards large resists on items, but not multiple massive resists types on the same desireable items. I beleive this is to encourage swapping out gear situationally, which already occurs, but is being further emphasized. I agree with that direction.2) The fabled seems to be even greater quality than the legendary - As it should be, but with truly impressive legendary gear in abundant supply, will they make fabled the same improvement it was in the past? By that I mean, pre-expansion legendary gear was rare enough to still be pleased with it when you had it, but fabled was always a cut above, and usually useful for far longer (quite a bit of my fabled T5 jewelry is still useful).The trends seems to indicate the legendary items will be somewhat easier to obtain, but how will fabled be adjusted to compensate?3) Crafted items being more specially suited for different classes - I for one like this change. People have been requesting it for a while, and I think it will boulster the support of those crafters (though judging by the crafting forums theres plenty that needs worked on.Being able to fill a slot with stats useful to your class is a nice thing to have, and I'm glad to see it come available. Choice is good.-----So, having said all of that. How do you guys, as fellow monks, see things unfolding? I'm curious what others feel is the direction, and I'd like to start the discussion now before people really get into the T7 raids, so we can look back for posterity and see how it differs from what we're interpreting./bow- Grabaan

SkarlSpeedbu · 03-01-2006, 02:11 AM

Grabaan wrote:1) These items seem to be vastly "greater" than the items they're replacing, and yet are quite easily obtained - With legendary drops of great equipment seemingly in no danger of limited supply, what does this imply about the T7 raids?

I can answer this one. Its just like any expannsion. They are opening the flood gates for the few rabid players, and once a decent amount of this is in the population, the close the flood gates again. Leaving the casual player with that fuzzy, "dang why didn't I stay up and stay out of work for a couple of weeks to get this stuff." Don't worry they will turn off the faucet bro, just better get yours while you can hehe.

Hidehi · 03-01-2006, 07:32 AM

Legendary being more common and thus fable being not so fabled, maybe mythical grade is coming from raid mobs in KoS and later expansions?

x0rtrun · 03-01-2006, 11:37 AM

There really wasn't a lot of legendary dropped stuff before this. There were some from the T6 raid zones that were nice, but they didn't really start to show up until more recently.I thikn they are starting to better define the different tiers of items. Moving rare crafted to treasured, opening up legendary dropped stuff from more common easier to get to places allows the solo/group folks a chance at better than crafted loot without having to endure raiding.Fabled will probably be a bit rarer and will have even better stats than legnadary. This makes raiding still worthwhile, but not necesary for getting some uber loot.Mythical stuff could be a possibility too from some of the big end game content of KoS. Big dragons drop big loot. I've only ever seen 2 or 3 mythical items, and they weren't very high lvl. They basically had weird effects that were rather unique, but not all that practical. Mythical stuff has almost always been flagged as artifact as well, meaning only 1 per server. Talk about rare.

lagerone · 03-03-2006, 07:53 AM

I am not sure if we are headed anywhere...I think we have arrived.

Group dropped Legendary/Treasured has replaced player made Legendary as the standard gear for the playerbase. A very good change IMHO. Not sure where this leaves crafters, where they should have been in the first place I guess. With an important role, but not with a wholly dominant one (ie EQ1).

The status of Fabled has been returned to its appropriate place as a tag for raid quality loot. The T6 instanced "semi" Fabled will be looked upon an a historical inconsistency.

As for Mythical taking a place, yeah that would be nice. The truly uber boss mob drops could get the Mythical tag. They should be the sort of items that would be worn for 2 tiers and never go grey.

Code2501 · 03-03-2006, 10:31 AM

Iagerone:

Group dropped Legendary/Treasured has replaced player made Legendary as the standard gear for the playerbase. A very good change IMHO. Not sure where this leaves crafters, where they should have been in the first place I guess. With an important role, but not with a wholly dominant one (ie EQ1).

I speak from the perspective of having 144 Adventuring lvls and 178 Tradeskill levels across my 3 avatars:

This leaves a lot of crafters with no gameplay actually. Currently common solo droped and quested gear is generaly better than rare crafted gear, and considerably easier/cheaper to obtain. This means there is nothing non-consumable that a crafter can produce that is worth producing.

I disagree with your implication that crafting had a dominate role, goods were mostly priced based on the pricing of rares and raws which the adventuring aspect of the game controlled. As Tier 7 stands there is no purpose to craft non-perishables and effectively there is no game-play for the tradeskills aspect of the game.

EQ2's origional vision was to be more than the 'hack n slash' EQ, this regresion to a game lacking depth of playstyles looks like a failure to me, not a good change.

Regarding the OP, in terms of T7 itemisation, I think some treasured common drops are looking better than t6 fabled, which kind of defeats the argument that t6 rare crafted way too powerfull due to it eclipsing the previous tier fabled. I have seen very little t7 fabled at this stage, and what i have seen is only from the lower end of the tier, yet it is quite powerful. I look forward to reaching a level i can participate in late tier 7 raiding content as I imagine some very very nice gear wil drop. I agree with the sugestion that the end game raids will be tough though, can't wait to die 100 times at the feet of a giant dracolich, man thats gunna look cool.

Message Edited by Code2501 on 03-02-200609:32 PM

TheHidden · 03-03-2006, 11:51 AM

Heh. well. just my two cents I guess. but i really did not come to this "game" to spend my time farming for enough money to buy gear off the broker. or acutally items at all. i acutally came to enjoy the "game" storyline with my friends. unfortunatly to enjoy it you have to be able to not die. which means countless hours of farming for money to get rares etc.what we are seeing in this game now purely based on soes model is that the richer get richer quicker while the poorer have to spend increasinly more time money and effort to achieve the same level of freedom to enjoy the content of the game.i sort of feel sorry for any person comeing to this game wihtout having any friends to help them out. decent gear at lower levels is very hard to come by now. and in the larger aspect of things. no crafter is going to want to make something that gives them a lesser increase in funds than it did before.

I mean it is their time and money they are spending on the game why should they do lower tier stuff to help others when they suffer themselves right.? this basically means that the longer the game continues the larger the gap will become and the less low tiered items will be sold on market.personally i like the idea that i can quest really DECENT armor now. and maybe find a few good items to trade for decent gear. this means i can spend more time enjoying the content like i originally wanted. get away from the real world where money rules all. it means i can focus on teh aspect that gives me enjoyment.i dont know what sony should do about the crafter situation. but seriously. at the higher tiers. how much of an income does a crafter acutally make? considering usually the buyer is responsible for providing the rares. ihave to admit im biased. i like adventuring not crafting. (and i also have to say that the crafted stuff is pointless right now) sony has made another set of changes that causes more problems they need to address. which in turn will cause more problems that need to be adressed. i wish them luck.just dont make this game about money. thats teh one thing i ask. make the game a game for enjoyment. crafting could be made enjoyable in a different way too. anyways. im going to bed. good luck all.

Silmap · 03-03-2006, 10:36 PM

From what I have seen the drops are similar to legendary gear from T6 gear - maybe slightly better in a few stats however they have next to no resists. Frankly I am not going to give up a multiple 700 resist item for 2 more stamina and strength.If you were in full Fabled/Legendary coming into KoS there aren't that many replacements in the lower level zones that are like OMG i have to have this

Code2501 · 03-06-2006, 10:19 AM

TheHidden:

Heh. well. just my two cents I guess. but i really did not come to this "game" to spend my time farming for enough money to buy gear off the broker. or acutally items at all. i acutally came to enjoy the "game" storyline with my friends. unfortunatly to enjoy it you have to be able to not die. which means countless hours of farming for money to get rares etc.what we are seeing in this game now purely based on soes model is that the richer get richer quicker while the poorer have to spend increasinly more time money and effort to achieve the same level of freedom to enjoy the content of the game.i sort of feel sorry for any person comeing to this game wihtout having any friends to help them out. decent gear at lower levels is very hard to come by now. and in the larger aspect of things. no crafter is going to want to make something that gives them a lesser increase in funds than it did before.

I mean it is their time and money they are spending on the game why should they do lower tier stuff to help others when they suffer themselves right.? this basically means that the longer the game continues the larger the gap will become and the less low tiered items will be sold on market.

Up to this point I would agree with you on most levels. However having started fresh on a new server without friends only 4 months ago (now the toon is a 63 monk/50 Provisioner) I have to disagree with both of these statements. I largely used treasured gear up to about t4, and it wasn't crap. From T4 i started to get Ledgendary crafted stuff made and it was actually quite cheap, even buying almost all the materials off the market. The thing is, you gotta spend a little time speaking to the tradeskillers, find the good ones and you'll get quite a good deal... normaly I over tipped on stuff to because as a new non-twinked character, i found it extremely easy to make money from adventuring. I actually got several plat off fabled drops in RE. Since the revamp of dungeons, good loot drops often.

From the time I have spent tradeskilling I can say that I simply don't do it for a profit, and I dare say many many players are similar to me, based on my interactions with other players. The primary reason I chose to utilise the tradeskills aspect of this game was because I enjoyed helping people out by making their avatars a lil stronger. If asked to do something that is not too time consuming I will normally make an item for a compleate stranger for production cost only, (if you ask nicely), irrespective of tier. Often people would tip whatever they could afford as a thankyou, but the money is really a side thought.

personally i like the idea that i can quest really DECENT armor now. and maybe find a few good items to trade for decent gear. this means i can spend more time enjoying the content like i originally wanted. get away from the real world where money rules all. it means i can focus on teh aspect that gives me enjoyment.I really have no issue with their being decent Quested armour in the game, or any decent quested gear... My issue with the way t7 itemisation is now is that the gear that players can make for other players is sub par, across the board, to gear that is dropping of solo or common group mobs. I care that this makes crafted goods useless not because I'm scared of the loss in profits crafters will supposedly see from this, but rather because the enjoyment of helping other players out has been nerfed. "well i can make you a brestplate if you spend 3 plat on the rare... but the stats are worse than a mob drop you can buy on the market for 5gp."

i dont know what sony should do about the crafter situation. but seriously. at the higher tiers. how much of an income does a crafter acutally make? considering usually the buyer is responsible for providing the rares. ihave to admit im biased. i like adventuring not crafting. (and i also have to say that the crafted stuff is pointless right now) sony has made another set of changes that causes more problems they need to address. which in turn will cause more problems that need to be adressed. i wish them luck.just dont make this game about money. thats teh one thing i ask. make the game a game for enjoyment. crafting could be made enjoyable in a different way too. anyways. im going to bed. good luck all.

Never for one minute is this game about money to me, its (hopefuly) about people having fun. I hope that crafted gear can be made comparable to drops again, if not i will miss the interaction that has been most of the game to me.

P.S. none of my TS classes produce equipment, there only perishables or skill upgrades (alchie, provie, sage) and hence mostly un-affected by the changes to t7 itemisation, but i will miss making my (new) friend tailors,weaponsmiths,jewelers,etc feel good about how nice the gear is that i got them to make me. Altruism is more than just an AA skill, its a facet of human nature that should not be actively excluded from any human interaction, digital or otherwise.

ok, done, that was my final copper on this.

03-01-2006, 02:11 AM	#2
SkarlSpeedbu Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 243	Grabaan wrote:1) These items seem to be vastly "greater" than the items they're replacing, and yet are quite easily obtained - With legendary drops of great equipment seemingly in no danger of limited supply, what does this imply about the T7 raids? I can answer this one. Its just like any expannsion. They are opening the flood gates for the few rabid players, and once a decent amount of this is in the population, the close the flood gates again. Leaving the casual player with that fuzzy, "dang why didn't I stay up and stay out of work for a couple of weeks to get this stuff." Don't worry they will turn off the faucet bro, just better get yours while you can hehe. __________________ Grissil Blockhead, Guildleader Smoke "If you build a family with snakes, then expect to be bitten"

03-01-2006, 11:37 AM	#4
x0rtrun General Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 904	There really wasn't a lot of legendary dropped stuff before this. There were some from the T6 raid zones that were nice, but they didn't really start to show up until more recently.I thikn they are starting to better define the different tiers of items. Moving rare crafted to treasured, opening up legendary dropped stuff from more common easier to get to places allows the solo/group folks a chance at better than crafted loot without having to endure raiding.Fabled will probably be a bit rarer and will have even better stats than legnadary. This makes raiding still worthwhile, but not necesary for getting some uber loot.Mythical stuff could be a possibility too from some of the big end game content of KoS. Big dragons drop big loot. I've only ever seen 2 or 3 mythical items, and they weren't very high lvl. They basically had weird effects that were rather unique, but not all that practical. Mythical stuff has almost always been flagged as artifact as well, meaning only 1 per server. Talk about rare. __________________

03-03-2006, 07:53 AM	#5
lagerone Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 163	I am not sure if we are headed anywhere...I think we have arrived. Group dropped Legendary/Treasured has replaced player made Legendary as the standard gear for the playerbase. A very good change IMHO. Not sure where this leaves crafters, where they should have been in the first place I guess. With an important role, but not with a wholly dominant one (ie EQ1). The status of Fabled has been returned to its appropriate place as a tag for raid quality loot. The T6 instanced "semi" Fabled will be looked upon an a historical inconsistency. As for Mythical taking a place, yeah that would be nice. The truly uber boss mob drops could get the Mythical tag. They should be the sort of items that would be worn for 2 tiers and never go grey. __________________

03-01-2006, 01:29 AM	#1
Grabaan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 135	I've been mulling things over the past few days, and I've been thinking about the itemization of the new expansion. I'd like to share a few thoughts and then open up for comments/feedback.I'm not sure if I'm alone in feeling this, but does everyone get a sense of excitement from the legendary and fabled we're seeing in this expansion? There are some really great items coming out that are quite desireable, and a lot of variety at that.But I have a few ideas/notions to toss out:1) These items seem to be vastly "greater" than the items they're replacing, and yet are quite easily obtained - With legendary drops of great equipment seemingly in no danger of limited supply, what does this imply about the T7 raids?My feeling is that we're in for some of the most difficult battles we've faced. I see a trend towards mitigation on jewelry again, I see a trend towards large resists on items, but not multiple massive resists types on the same desireable items. I beleive this is to encourage swapping out gear situationally, which already occurs, but is being further emphasized. I agree with that direction.2) The fabled seems to be even greater quality than the legendary - As it should be, but with truly impressive legendary gear in abundant supply, will they make fabled the same improvement it was in the past? By that I mean, pre-expansion legendary gear was rare enough to still be pleased with it when you had it, but fabled was always a cut above, and usually useful for far longer (quite a bit of my fabled T5 jewelry is still useful).The trends seems to indicate the legendary items will be somewhat easier to obtain, but how will fabled be adjusted to compensate?3) Crafted items being more specially suited for different classes - I for one like this change. People have been requesting it for a while, and I think it will boulster the support of those crafters (though judging by the crafting forums theres plenty that needs worked on.Being able to fill a slot with stats useful to your class is a nice thing to have, and I'm glad to see it come available. Choice is good.-----So, having said all of that. How do you guys, as fellow monks, see things unfolding? I'm curious what others feel is the direction, and I'd like to start the discussion now before people really get into the T7 raids, so we can look back for posterity and see how it differs from what we're interpreting./bow- Grabaan

03-01-2006, 07:32 AM	#3
Hidehi Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 13	Legendary being more common and thus fable being not so fabled, maybe mythical grade is coming from raid mobs in KoS and later expansions?

03-03-2006, 10:31 AM	#6
Code2501 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 165	Iagerone: Group dropped Legendary/Treasured has replaced player made Legendary as the standard gear for the playerbase. A very good change IMHO. Not sure where this leaves crafters, where they should have been in the first place I guess. With an important role, but not with a wholly dominant one (ie EQ1). I speak from the perspective of having 144 Adventuring lvls and 178 Tradeskill levels across my 3 avatars: This leaves a lot of crafters with no gameplay actually. Currently common solo droped and quested gear is generaly better than rare crafted gear, and considerably easier/cheaper to obtain. This means there is nothing non-consumable that a crafter can produce that is worth producing. I disagree with your implication that crafting had a dominate role, goods were mostly priced based on the pricing of rares and raws which the adventuring aspect of the game controlled. As Tier 7 stands there is no purpose to craft non-perishables and effectively there is no game-play for the tradeskills aspect of the game. EQ2's origional vision was to be more than the 'hack n slash' EQ, this regresion to a game lacking depth of playstyles looks like a failure to me, not a good change. Regarding the OP, in terms of T7 itemisation, I think some treasured common drops are looking better than t6 fabled, which kind of defeats the argument that t6 rare crafted way too powerfull due to it eclipsing the previous tier fabled. I have seen very little t7 fabled at this stage, and what i have seen is only from the lower end of the tier, yet it is quite powerful. I look forward to reaching a level i can participate in late tier 7 raiding content as I imagine some very very nice gear wil drop. I agree with the sugestion that the end game raids will be tough though, can't wait to die 100 times at the feet of a giant dracolich, man thats gunna look cool. Message Edited by Code2501 on 03-02-200609:32 PM

03-03-2006, 11:51 AM	#7
TheHidden Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 46	Heh. well. just my two cents I guess. but i really did not come to this "game" to spend my time farming for enough money to buy gear off the broker. or acutally items at all. i acutally came to enjoy the "game" storyline with my friends. unfortunatly to enjoy it you have to be able to not die. which means countless hours of farming for money to get rares etc.what we are seeing in this game now purely based on soes model is that the richer get richer quicker while the poorer have to spend increasinly more time money and effort to achieve the same level of freedom to enjoy the content of the game.i sort of feel sorry for any person comeing to this game wihtout having any friends to help them out. decent gear at lower levels is very hard to come by now. and in the larger aspect of things. no crafter is going to want to make something that gives them a lesser increase in funds than it did before. I mean it is their time and money they are spending on the game why should they do lower tier stuff to help others when they suffer themselves right.? this basically means that the longer the game continues the larger the gap will become and the less low tiered items will be sold on market.personally i like the idea that i can quest really DECENT armor now. and maybe find a few good items to trade for decent gear. this means i can spend more time enjoying the content like i originally wanted. get away from the real world where money rules all. it means i can focus on teh aspect that gives me enjoyment.i dont know what sony should do about the crafter situation. but seriously. at the higher tiers. how much of an income does a crafter acutally make? considering usually the buyer is responsible for providing the rares. ihave to admit im biased. i like adventuring not crafting. (and i also have to say that the crafted stuff is pointless right now) sony has made another set of changes that causes more problems they need to address. which in turn will cause more problems that need to be adressed. i wish them luck.just dont make this game about money. thats teh one thing i ask. make the game a game for enjoyment. crafting could be made enjoyable in a different way too. anyways. im going to bed. good luck all.

03-03-2006, 10:36 PM	#8
Silmap General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4	From what I have seen the drops are similar to legendary gear from T6 gear - maybe slightly better in a few stats however they have next to no resists. Frankly I am not going to give up a multiple 700 resist item for 2 more stamina and strength.If you were in full Fabled/Legendary coming into KoS there aren't that many replacements in the lower level zones that are like OMG i have to have this

03-06-2006, 10:19 AM	#9
Code2501 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 165	TheHidden: Heh. well. just my two cents I guess. but i really did not come to this "game" to spend my time farming for enough money to buy gear off the broker. or acutally items at all. i acutally came to enjoy the "game" storyline with my friends. unfortunatly to enjoy it you have to be able to not die. which means countless hours of farming for money to get rares etc.what we are seeing in this game now purely based on soes model is that the richer get richer quicker while the poorer have to spend increasinly more time money and effort to achieve the same level of freedom to enjoy the content of the game.i sort of feel sorry for any person comeing to this game wihtout having any friends to help them out. decent gear at lower levels is very hard to come by now. and in the larger aspect of things. no crafter is going to want to make something that gives them a lesser increase in funds than it did before. I mean it is their time and money they are spending on the game why should they do lower tier stuff to help others when they suffer themselves right.? this basically means that the longer the game continues the larger the gap will become and the less low tiered items will be sold on market. Up to this point I would agree with you on most levels. However having started fresh on a new server without friends only 4 months ago (now the toon is a 63 monk/50 Provisioner) I have to disagree with both of these statements. I largely used treasured gear up to about t4, and it wasn't crap. From T4 i started to get Ledgendary crafted stuff made and it was actually quite cheap, even buying almost all the materials off the market. The thing is, you gotta spend a little time speaking to the tradeskillers, find the good ones and you'll get quite a good deal... normaly I over tipped on stuff to because as a new non-twinked character, i found it extremely easy to make money from adventuring. I actually got several plat off fabled drops in RE. Since the revamp of dungeons, good loot drops often. From the time I have spent tradeskilling I can say that I simply don't do it for a profit, and I dare say many many players are similar to me, based on my interactions with other players. The primary reason I chose to utilise the tradeskills aspect of this game was because I enjoyed helping people out by making their avatars a lil stronger. If asked to do something that is not too time consuming I will normally make an item for a compleate stranger for production cost only, (if you ask nicely), irrespective of tier. Often people would tip whatever they could afford as a thankyou, but the money is really a side thought. personally i like the idea that i can quest really DECENT armor now. and maybe find a few good items to trade for decent gear. this means i can spend more time enjoying the content like i originally wanted. get away from the real world where money rules all. it means i can focus on teh aspect that gives me enjoyment.I really have no issue with their being decent Quested armour in the game, or any decent quested gear... My issue with the way t7 itemisation is now is that the gear that players can make for other players is sub par, across the board, to gear that is dropping of solo or common group mobs. I care that this makes crafted goods useless not because I'm scared of the loss in profits crafters will supposedly see from this, but rather because the enjoyment of helping other players out has been nerfed. "well i can make you a brestplate if you spend 3 plat on the rare... but the stats are worse than a mob drop you can buy on the market for 5gp." i dont know what sony should do about the crafter situation. but seriously. at the higher tiers. how much of an income does a crafter acutally make? considering usually the buyer is responsible for providing the rares. ihave to admit im biased. i like adventuring not crafting. (and i also have to say that the crafted stuff is pointless right now) sony has made another set of changes that causes more problems they need to address. which in turn will cause more problems that need to be adressed. i wish them luck.just dont make this game about money. thats teh one thing i ask. make the game a game for enjoyment. crafting could be made enjoyable in a different way too. anyways. im going to bed. good luck all. Never for one minute is this game about money to me, its (hopefuly) about people having fun. I hope that crafted gear can be made comparable to drops again, if not i will miss the interaction that has been most of the game to me. P.S. none of my TS classes produce equipment, there only perishables or skill upgrades (alchie, provie, sage) and hence mostly un-affected by the changes to t7 itemisation, but i will miss making my (new) friend tailors,weaponsmiths,jewelers,etc feel good about how nice the gear is that i got them to make me. Altruism is more than just an AA skill, its a facet of human nature that should not be actively excluded from any human interaction, digital or otherwise. ok, done, that was my final copper on this.