Monks now top DPS and lowest tanks

[Nemi]

From Moorgard:

 

---

Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle

 

---

So the DPS whiners won, we're now being ranked higher than the offensive crusaders and warriors, which would mean of course by SoE logic, we're 2nd worse tank only slightly ahead of Bruisers.

 

WTG!

[Gaige]

I think to be fair, you should quote his entire response:

---

Moorgard wrote:

The round of changes currently on Test only deal with the defensive side of things. They won't go live without other changes that are coming.

We're making some fundamental changes to the spell system that are in progress right now. We're also determining the relative damage potential of each class and will be adjusting spells and arts to meet that scale.

With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle.

 

Keep in mind these differences are not wide chasms. A Guardian who upgrades all his damage arts could probably outdamage a Bruiser that puts little effort into upgrading his abilities. Likewise, a Monk who pays attention to gear and arts can be a better pure tank than an unskilled Paladin. The onus for maximizing the potential of a given character is on the player, because that's the one element of class balance that we have absolutely no control over.

---

I think it'll be more of the same as now, without trivializing content and with closer gaps between subclasses.  /shrug

[Nerill]

Yay ! :smileytongue:

[ArivenGemini]

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Nemi wrote:

From Moorgard:

 

---

Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle

 

---

So the DPS whiners won, we're now being ranked higher than the offensive crusaders and warriors, which would mean of course by SoE logic, we're 2nd worse tank only slightly ahead of Bruisers.   WTG!

---

I believe that is partially or fully intended NOW... just looking at the number of buffs I dont have with my monk, and the number I DO have with my berserker... it seems to fit the description just not "working as intended" via the DPS in some cases... But the balance of higher defensive stuff and lower dps is countered by the higher dps taking stuff down a bit faster... overall (in theory) it should end up the same...

[Gaige]

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Nerill wrote:
Yay ! :smileytongue:

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Don't worry Nerill, the best fighter DPS is even lower than the best scout DPS after the changes.

[Nerill]

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Gage-Mikel wrote:

Don't worry Nerill, the best fighter DPS is even lower than the best scout DPS after the changes.

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Good ! That's the way it should be. /shrug

[Nemi]

My DPS while tanking is not that significantly higher than a Warrior if I'm constantly pulling. This argument that we tank worse because our DPS kills the mob faster is BULL. My DPS while tanking is insignificant compared to the scouts and wizzies in my group.

I'm [Removed for Content] that SoE is now moving down the route of 'sub-class' balancing. Its AGAINST everything they have stated previously, even bringing in a tanking heirarchy is only now being mentioned, after 6 months of release. A COMPLETELY new combat and spell system 6 months after release too!

Add to that Station Exchange and it all adds up to one thing: Disgruntled consumer, and this one just clicked the 'Cancel Subscription' button. Total n00bs the lot of them at SoE.

---

I'll give you a hint Moorgard.

When you set out with a design goal for a game and advertise this to the consumers; when you create a system revolving around archetype balance and build a combat / spell / healing system to complement this...

Ready for this?

YOU DON'T GO AND BUGGER ABOUT WITH IT 6 MONTHS AFTER RELEASE!

[Cusashorn]

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Nemi wrote:

From Moorgard:

 

---

Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle

 

---

So the DPS whiners won, we're now being ranked higher than the offensive crusaders and warriors, which would mean of course by SoE logic, we're 2nd worse tank only slightly ahead of Bruisers.

 

WTG!

---

I see no problem here. MG has stated even before the game went live that Brawlers would do more DPS than all the other tank classes...

 

 

They also said that tanks are suppose to over-all do more damage than Scouts, period... Well I guess we can't get everything our way..

[Yera]

---

I'll give you a hint Moorgard.

When you set out with a design goal for a game and advertise this to the consumers; when you create a system revolving around archetype balance and build a combat / spell / healing system to complement this...

Ready for this?

YOU DON'T GO AND BUGGER ABOUT WITH IT 6 MONTHS AFTER RELEASE!

---

Never played SWG, huh?

[Owa]

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Nemi wrote:

From Moorgard:

 

---

Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle

 

---

So the DPS whiners won, we're now being ranked higher than the offensive crusaders and warriors, which would mean of course by SoE logic, we're 2nd worse tank only slightly ahead of Bruisers.

 

WTG!

---

Who won what, precisely? Isn't that exactly the way things have always been, with the Bruiser and Monk (in that order) supposed to outdamage the defensive fighters? Unless I missed a meeting somewhere, Brawlers have always been the 'offensive' end of the Fighter spectrum. Inferring from Moorguard's words that the Fighter archetype has been fundamentally changed due to pressure from whiners is just downright...odd.

[Kylins]

I'm a level 45 bruiser... I've seen Berserkers 4 levels lower than me crank out 3 times the damage, and I was combat art spamming from behind. I don't know where this so called high dps from Bruisers is, so far as I can tell its all imaginary.

 

[woo]

meh.

[Wiou]

Who says we arent supposed to be the 2nd worst to bruisers?

[SageMarrow]

And thats exactly what you will see happen....

Guardian, top tank, 6th dps 

paladin, second top tank, 5th dps

Berserker, 3rd top tank 4th dps

 

Shadowknight, 4th top tank 3rd dps

 

monk, 5th top tank, 2nd dps

 

Bruiser, 6 top tank, 1st dps

 

So basically what you will be seeing is bigger offensive gaps, and basically the same defensive gaps...

 

Because at present, offense is not a commodity, defense is. So a well played and attentive bruiser will be able to outdps just about all fighter classes. because its skill/spell dependant. While the defensive gaps will be much larger with the right combination of attention and gear from a gaurdian or paladin.

 

thats what you are seeing. Basically they are defining what was already in place to begin with... With of course Berserkers being the oddballs. I think they will take thier rightful place in this as well

 

[Gaige]

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SageMarrow wrote:

 

Because at present, offense is not a commodity, defense is. So a well played and attentive bruiser will be able to outdps just about all fighter classes. because its skill/spell dependant. While the defensive gaps will be much larger with the right combination of attention and gear from a gaurdian or paladin.

 

thats what you are seeing. Basically they are defining what was already in place to begin with... With of course Berserkers being the oddballs. I think they will take thier rightful place in this as well

---

That is actually exactly the opposite of what Moorgard said will happen.

[SomeDudeCRO]

Sounds good to me.

[Nemi]

Its Hybrid-Syndrome all over again. Might as well call this Everquest 1.5

 

When 4 subclasses do your job better than you and 2 archetypes and 12 subclasses do your secondary role better than you, that doesn't leave you jack.

All Fighters can tank, but some so bad you'll never get the chance, Eh Moorgard?

[Tully]

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Nemi wrote:

When 4 subclasses do your job better than you and 2 archetypes and 12 subclasses do your secondary role better than you, that doesn't leave you jack.

---

Amen.  I'll most likely quit EQ2 if this turns out to be the case.

[Azazel-Defia]

Read this statement from Moorguard.

 

__________________________________________________ ____________________________

In terms of damage output, berserkers are intended to fall behind bruisers and monks. Berserkers should do a bit more damage than a guardian, since they do not tank quite as well as the guardian.

 

We are in the process of evaluating the damage output of all professions to see if they perform as we want them to. We will make further changes to the overall potency of spells and arts in order to achieve our desired results.

 

Regardless of how we balance the classes, there will be some people who don't agree with our decisions. A lot of the distinctions in class balance are subtle ones, prone to emotional interpretation--especially when players make such an personal investment in their characters. While balance will be one of the gameplay elements we focus on over the next couple weeks, it will also be an ongoing process.

__________________________________________________ ____________________________

 

 

Now read the new statement excerpt from this thread.

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Nemi wrote:

From Moorgard:

 

---

Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle

 

---

 

 

Guess when the first statement was made.

 

Bottomline. Nothing in Moorguards post is new. It is information we have had since shortly after game release. The developers have not made any drastic changes in direction. In fact, other than damage output changes from beta, they have been very consistent in their vision. I dont think they have ever gotten things to work exactly the way they want, but we all expect that the game will change with time.

 

 

Azazel

Nek

 

P.S. First staement was dated 1-10-05

[SageMarrow]

Its Hybrid-Syndrome all over again. Might as well call this Everquest 1.5

 

When 4 subclasses do your job better than you and 2 archetypes and 12 subclasses do your secondary role better than you, that doesn't leave you jack.

All Fighters can tank, but some so bad you'll never get the chance, Eh Moorgard?

---

Nemi how long have i been saying that?????@?!@?!??@

why has it taken till now for yall to see that i said this is what will happen? But it was such a big problem when i said it 3 months ago.

All you see is half [Removed for Content] tankage and half [Removed for Content] dps.. Now do you see why i said give me more dps?

Because i knew that tanking was not going to happen bro... Now we are stuck in the middle of the bottom. And of course thats what that means.

Now all of a sudden, my utility/dps increase parade has a purpose.

[Nemi]

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SageMarrow wrote:

Nemi how long have i been saying that?????@?!@?!??@

why has it taken till now for yall to see that i said this is what will happen? But it was such a big problem when i said it 3 months ago.

All you see is half [Removed for Content] tankage and half [Removed for Content] dps.. Now do you see why i said give me more dps?

Because i knew that tanking was not going to happen bro... Now we are stuck in the middle of the bottom. And of course thats what that means.

Now all of a sudden, my utility/dps increase parade has a purpose.

---

Difference is I advocated all fighters being able to tank all content equally but different. What Moorgard and you propose is completely different to that.

[SageMarrow]

that didnt matter, i just saw it coming from a mile away. it wasnt going to happen. We argued for weeks about it and no one came up with even one feasible way for a monk/bruiser to tank as well as anything is heavy armor.

There was only one solution, it sucked, but there was only one solution either way.. to give up. and take what we more than likely COULD get. utility and dps

[Gaige]

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SageMarrow wrote:

that didnt matter, i just saw it coming from a mile away. it wasnt going to happen. We argued for weeks about it and no one came up with even one feasible way for a monk/bruiser to tank as well as anything is heavy armor.

There was only one solution, it sucked, but there was only one solution either way.. to give up. and take what we more than likely COULD get. utility and dps

---

More utility and dps as a fighter class is BS.  Because its still mage>scout>fighter>priest.

If you want to parade around, do it all the way, and have them make us scouts.

Evac, pathfinding, awesome DPS, the whole deal.

Not some half-[Removed for Content] attempt at being an EQ1 monk.

[woo]

EQ2 had so much potential..

they need to fire whoever is in charge of thinking [Removed for Content] up because he has the creativity of a cow.

 

and... throwing this out there, not taking sides even though im a monk .. i dont know what to think yet.. but,

not everyone can be #1.  someone is going to be the best.  it appears sony chose guardians..

 

that said, take paladins -- they might not be able to shield there allies as well, but they can heal them instead.

..im still trying to think of what us brawlers offer..  DPS?  why not just choose a scout..  tank?  why not just choose a guardian+paladin..

 

meh.

 

[SageMarrow]

lol, well gage - i totally agree.

But since the king of defense is taken...damit i better be the king of melee dps, they can keep thier utility...

i wanna do sick dps like a mother... warlock type melee dps.

real shi-t. I want to be on either side respectively. But not stuck in the middle of the bottom.

Message Edited by SageMarrow on 04-27-2005 03:21 PM

[Gaige]

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SageMarrow wrote:

lol, well gage - i totally agree.

But since the king of defense is taken...damit i better be the king of melee dps, they can keep thier utility...

i wanna do sick dps like a mother... warlock type melee dps.

real shi-t. I want to be on either side respectively. But not stuck in the middle of the bottom.

---

Yup, you want to be a scout, thought so.

[SageMarrow]

well you can dig this into the ground if you want too, and we know you want too... But on that end you are fighting a losing battle...

not to rehash an old debate. but you are not going to give up on tanking so nevermind. this post at all...

[Ronin]

Basicly this is my out take on this . . . Guardians, While a strong class able to wield all forms of weapons and armor. Offer far less DPS then all the other  ranks in the Fighter Pool. However they also offer the best tanking ability.  This is thier Job, they are the Guards of the group. They do it well now, and offer tib bits of damage to look like they are doing something other than getting the Heck beat out of them constantly. Paladins, SOE seems to think they are the second best in Tanking, Well, I'd agree also. Thier group buffs used with on the run castable nukes, allow for nearly flawless agro and makes them a very viable tank, with slightly less ability then guardians. They offset that ability with healing and wards, but this lowers thier DPS to the second worst of the fighter pool as well. Berserkers, Hard to believe they ranked 3rd in tanking, seeing they use all the weapons and armor of guardians, including shields. But it looks as though SOE depicts them to using dual wield more, which lowers tanking just enough to set them in at 3rd spot.  Well rounded class, able to tank and dps pretty evenly across the board. Shadowknights, I'd say instead of 4th tanking, the would be a tie for 3rd. Pretty equal with Zerkers, in that reguards. But they have a slight advantage in spells and skills that put them a rank up in DPS. Solid balanced class yet again. Monks, one of the best Utility tanks of the fighter pool but with one minor set back. These skilled fighters don't rely on armor instead they rely on speed. Being missed is the game and higher the mob you face the less likely that will happen. Tho due to thier Utility buffs they come in a solid 4th in the tank field. Just don't be on the receiving end of thier fists if they are mad, cause it will hurt. Bruisers, They are the red headed step child of the tanks. They rank last in tanking ability, but don't take them lightly. They come with fists ready and a strong assortment of skills. These are the elite  DPS tanks, they live and die by the damage they inflict. But once targeted for removal by a mob, its hard pressed to maintain. Now then, one question I seen so far in this thread was about what Bruisers can do in groups. I'll answer that for you, as I am a bruiser, who knows his role well. Bruiser's while not the best by any means at taking hits, can take agro and hold it almost better then any other tank out there. They can also put mobs out of the fight for short periods of time. Intimidate and Jeer lines of skills are Keen abilities that are often times over looked. Intimidate *which I'll just call Mez here on out* gives you a 15 second window of one mob setting Idle doing nothing. This skill is absolutely the best  way to remove a mob from a healer or caster thats under fire.  Also, Jeer is a solid fear, lasting between 1 and 30 seconds roughly. This skill will send a mobs scattering in fear but you can also stop those fleeing mobs in thier tracks with a well timed stun just after fearing. What this means in during a group, even if your the highest level tank there your roll is still DPS, and secondly its your job to be watchful and pickup any ADDs the group might get. Don't think a bruiser can't tank though, for 32 seconds a bruiser is the best tank in the game hands down, nothing can touch you with Bob and weave up, and to top it off you can Stifle with throat punch, and about half of your attacks come lvl35 have a stun component. So you see, Bruisers are only as good as the person playing them. While ranked last as tanks, they are one of the best Crowd control tanks around. Any group is lucky to have a good bruiser in the fight with them. Now then, post what ya like, I'm not saying Bruisers are better then anyone else either. Everyclass is only as good as the person playing them. I've seen Mystics timing wards and heals and debuffs become better tanks then some Guardians I've seen. So just play your best, keep your eyes open, and use your class to its fullest ability. Thats all that was given to you, and all you have the ability to do.  If nothing else, you might save a poor wizard that over nukes some day and get a thank you from it, and it will make you feel great. And at that point you'll understand, its nothing to do with your class, but everything to do with your attitude and ability to play your best. Divar 33 Bruiser Oasis Server

Message Edited by RoninDF on 04-27-2005 04:51 PM

[woo]

If you are holding a 4 foot long claymore and you swing it at someone..  I'm thinking its going to hurt.  Now, same scenario but you have an 8 inch dagger..  gotta stab em a bunch to do the same.

In several other games I have played, tanks did plenty of damage but only 1 "type" ie physical--melee.  Why would a huge sword or axe be so much weaker than a little knife?

 

I think scouts and fighters should be tied for DPS (give or take a little within subclasses), and the difference between the two would be that Fighters can tank and Scouts offer utility and different forms of attacks.  As of right now they sorta jumbled this up poorly.  I am not saying to nerf scout's damage, im saying scouts and fighters should be equal.  Some may argue fighters do more right now, or scouts do more, or that they are already equal.  This is besides the point --  I am throwing all of what Sony has already attempted to create out the window.

This would create:

Fighters: X dps, tank

Scouts: X dps, utlity, different forms of attacks (ie poisons, ranged weapons)

Priests: ½X dps, heal, ½utility

Mages: 2x dps, ½utility

 

Within the Fighter archetype;

Warriors need to have avoidance %s reduced somehow, and mitigation upped some.  They also need many of there buffs weakened some.  They should not offer much utlity, they should be "grunts" so to speak, as with every other Fighter. By this I mean they are good at standing out there getting smacked around, and they can smack around the mobs.  They should not offer lots of buffs or any other form of utility.

Crusaders should be the middle guy for avoidance and mitigation, and lower some of there utilities as well.  The difference between classes should not be tanking, utility and DPS -- those should be differences between archetypes.  Crusaders would be good tanks because they have average mitigation and average avoidance.

Brawlers should have much more avoidance.  Brawlers don't have many buffs.  Brawlers should be the opposite of warriors so to speak:  little utility, weak/little buffs, but still incredible tanking.  Wheres the difference? The difference is they use mitigation and brawlers use avoidance.

A sliding scale so to speak might show this better:

Darker would be mitigation, lighter would be avoidance.

|---Warriors-----------Crusaders-----------Brawlers---|

Sony is trying to make the difference between us be DPS and tanking ability -- this is wrong.  The difference should be style of tanking.  Warriors should absorb a lot of damage (improve there mitigation, lower there avoidance) and Brawlers should avoid most of it (improve avoidance).  Crusaders should be the middle of the road.

Right now avoidance doesnt usually offset the mitigation, because of agility "caps" a warrior can naturally have mugh higher mitigation than brawlers and buff there avoidance to within 10% of brawlers'.  The reason is because brawlers naturally have very low mitigation, and 80%ish avoidance.  Agility will improve the avoidance.. but past 200 it doesnt do much.  A warrior will have 50% ish avoidance just from his shield and the basic defense skills n what not.  When he gets agility buffs, his agility isnt anywhere near 200 natrually.. so his agility has a large impact and can raise avoidance to 70% or more.  Now some might be thinking "well then by this logic, brawlers could just buff there mitigation %s like warriors can buff there avoidance %s.." -- no.  Brawlers wear light armor, its just not possible for Brawlers to come anywhere near a warriors mitigation.  And instead of fixing that Sony is just saying 'oh lets make brawlers a weakened version of a scout'.

 

As of now it seems they have just thrown together some skill sets, labled them as a certain class, and then put them in whatever archetype had room left.

 

edit: spelling, grammar, punctuation etc.

Message Edited by woode on 04-27-2005 07:56 PM

[Wiou]

Gage, why dont you go play a Guardian? In fact, please?