So, my monk is now almost lvl 29 and I see a huge difference - Page 2

GangsterFi · 11-30-2004, 09:45 PM

The problem with the untility of the monk is that, Mend only works so so, and when mobs are hitting for over 400 damage per a hit it basically heals one hit. Which is better than nothing but I would never depend on mend to save anyone, its a hit or miss kinda thing. Feign Death, well it works allright (like 75%) but the problem is when a group wipes because of a bad pull or aggro in a dungeon, they sometimes don't die in the clear. There might be a roaming mob, or even a mob standing right on top of them. Now, if SoE made monks able to drag the corpses, it would be way more useful. Monks could FD with a clickable and pull the priest and everyone's corpse to a safespot and then res the priest, and the priest could then res everyone else. That would make it a ton more useful. Even if they made it, so you had to be grouped or in raid party to drag corpses.As far as the main tank goes. Sure, monks can main tank but its not anywhere as effecient as letting heavy armor tanks tank. Then at the same time they need all these conditions to tank well. Intervine, ally, wards, haste, mob has to be slowed. You can't always get that configuration in a group. Also, 99% of the warriors I know won't want to let the monk tank. I tried the whole buff out thing in runnyeye last night and it seemed to work really well at first. Then we got 2 mobs on us casting barrage. Both me, and the guardian (who was intervine on me) fell in HP really fast. He was soaking up my damage, but there was just too much damage being dished so we both almost died. He took over MT and we won the fight. So, even when you can get the monk to work as a MT, its not a constant. We had been killing these things all night and every few encounters I would get spanked and the other times I did okay (not great) where the guardian did the same tank job all the way through.Maybe once I hit a few more levels it will change a bit, I will be lvl 30 tonight. However, as it stands the monk is not as good of a tank as a guardian or a berzerker.

eqtaka · 11-30-2004, 10:41 PM

This is a Good thread. I've been reading Wong's threads since he's been in beta. There a lot of good information here and a lot of sharing. I won't comment to much on what's already posted, but I'll add something I have. I found something on these boards a few months ago that was posted by SoE themselves. As we all know the forums were wiped clean when beta ended, but I did copy and paste some interesting information about Monks and Tanking and what SoE says Monks are supposed to be.

Based on the information provided. Monk are supposed to Tank and Tank well. I'm not sure if upping our evasion is the answer here. Upping evasion would make us invincible to blue con mobs no matter how many there are. I think this is SoE issue with the Monk Class. I suggest they provide Monk class with better armor perhaps. I'm not sure if that would also make us invincible or not either, but perhaps deserves some looking into. Perhaps Samurai style armour, Bamboo laminated. Not as heavy as steel plate but better protection and quite mobile. I've seen martial artists in samurai armor. They can do cartwheels and tumble just fine, so it can still go along with what SoE is trying to target Monks as.

Here is the quote that made me decide to go Monk vs Guardian.

There are many incorrect assumptions in this thread because people are relying too much on what they know of monks in EQ. Aside from looks and the carryover of some skills and arts that have the same names, our monks are considerably different.

While all fighter subclasses won't have the exact same hitpoint totals or damage output, those difference will be minor and will be balanced to add flavor rather than create disparity or undesirability in groups. There will certainly be nothing like the difference between monk and warrior hitpoint totals in EQ.

In our game, monks are tanks. Monks will tank in groups; monks will tank in raids. There will be situations where they are the preferred type of tank, as well as situations where another fighter subclass might be more advantageous. But monks will have all the tools to do the job while still having a unique appeal.
============================
Moorgard
EQII Community Guy

RyniNevertan · 11-30-2004, 10:51 PM

OK,

I spent 3 hours in TS last night and couldn't get a group. 93 people in zone, 43 (including me) were levels 20 23. I had my LFG tag on the entire time, everytime someone would zone in, 22 pally LFG or 21 wiz LFG, bam they found a spot.

I don't mind not being able to be the MT, I am perfectly fine with off-tank. However, the problem with being a "utility" class, is that you don't do any thing really well, or at least not as good as the class that was designed to do that.

My issue is that monks are having problems getting groups, I don't think that soloing all the way to 50 is going to be an enjoyable experience.

..my 2 copper

Ryni

PaNiK · 11-30-2004, 11:05 PM

RyniNevertanks- i agree totally.

In this game it seems that core classes (Fighter, Mages, Rogue, Clerics) are the only needed people in a successful group.

Blanaced classes such as the monk are dreadful and uneeded.

Cora · 12-01-2004, 02:02 AM

They think monks will get the group killed, drag entire group FD flop through a raid instance or something and res the priest to skip content.

WoW nerfed the hell out of everything to keep my shaman from doing this.

Message Edited by Coraz2 on 11-30-2004 01:02 PM

GangsterFi · 12-01-2004, 02:15 AM

See, I do not wish for the monk to be all powerful and the best main tank ever. I want them to be equal. I want the monk class to be a wanted class for groups. I want them to be useful in some way. Here is the delima though, how do you fix the monk?Better avoidance?Better mitigation?Heavier armor?More DPS?These are all good ideas, but how do you go about it with out making the monk totally uber. SoE did one thing right here, its much easier to give a class something than it is to take it away. So starting simple is a good idea, in a certain point of view. Now, if the avoidance were to be increased even more, then monks would be invincible to blue and green ++ mobs. They would never get hit, and could probably solo them. That would unbalance the soloability of the classes and would not be fair to everyone else overall. Incrase mitigation from light armor. Yeah, but again we face the issues of how close you can take this from medium armor or heavy armor. It might be hard to balance items and economy then. I mean a heavy plate breast plate should be worth more than a leather armor breastplate, just from the materials and the effectiveness each offers. Give monks heaveir armor? No, that would throw everything off. More DPS? Yeah, that could work, but then once the monk approaches scout level of DPS well it won't be fair to the scouts. Even though scouts get medium armor and have tons of usefull skills (group sneak, disarm, evac, ect).My suggestion as a possible solution. Increase AC, avoidance, and DPS slightly. Not much, just a tad here and a tad there. Give monks a natural AC bonus (like iron body training), perhaps a small natural haste increase to up the DPS and tweak the avoidance tables to scale VS mob level. That way avoidance would not be out of hand when it comes to fighting lower con mobs. Monks are currently sitting in the gap from scout to fighter, if they just had a little push they could cross the line one way or the other. There is no reason monks need disarming skills, sneaks, ect. Thats not really what a monk would be about. I think with small increases of these three things could help balance the monk out. Let them take a bit less damage, make them avoid slightly better (and scale it versus mob level), and maybe add in a little natural haste increase to increase DPS just slightly. Avoidance is nice, but when mobs are hittng me for 650 damage from a barrage attack it really drains my HPs. These increases could easily be implemented at the level needed, and as the monk levels progress. I am not saying give the monk increases right away or right now, but scale it out to even up with the rest of the tanks. So every level the monks natural AC bonus would get bigger and bigger to compensate for the huge difference of mitigation over heavy armor. I know the heavy armor tanks will wine becuase we get free AC is this happens. I will tell you one thing I have also noticed playing through as a monk. Heavy armor pieces drop left and right like its nobodies business. I barely see any light armor drop. When I do see it drop, I actually never see it because its so rare. So, heavy armor fighters also get more equipment drops. I can't tell you how many platemail items I have seen drop over light armor items. The ratio has to be like 50:1. Of course, I know that I have no explored all over the lands yet. Maybe monks will have a dungeon of their own, just like dalnir in EQ1. Cool dungeon that dropped crappy items for monks, and that no one ever wanted to go to.I actually train martial arts and I love the monk class, so I am trying to make them a good playable class. I will probably max my monk out at 50 just to see how they turn out, but I hope its not in vein. I supported the monk in beta and said pretty much the same things I am saying now, and well I got ignored. A lot of nay sayers out there are afraid of the monk becoming a good tank. All the guardians keep telling me I am not in the tank archetype, and I keep telling them, yes I am. All fighters tank, as stated above.Another thing, please ditch the genie look. The monk quest armor looks horrible. I look like I should be in a circus or something. Where are the shaolin robes? And the big bead necklaces?

GangsterFi · 12-01-2004, 02:17 AM

Coraz2 wrote:
They think monks will get the group killed, drag entire group FD flop through a raid instance or something and res the priest to skip content.

WoW nerfed the hell out of everything to keep my shaman from doing this.
Message Edited by Coraz2 on 11-30-2004 01:02 PM

Easy to fix. Make certain mobs immune to FD. Not to mention you can already do this. Its called freeboot (or smuggle). Get a rogue and you can group sneak everyone down to your proper position.

Cora · 12-01-2004, 02:45 AM

GangsterFist wrote:

Coraz2 wrote:

They think monks will get the group killed, drag entire group FD flop through a raid instance or something and res the priest to skip content.

WoW nerfed the hell out of everything to keep my shaman from doing this.

Message Edited by Coraz2 on 11-30-2004 01:02 PM

Easy to fix. Make certain mobs immune to FD. Not to mention you can already do this. Its called freeboot (or smuggle). Get a rogue and you can group sneak everyone down to your proper position.

[Removed for Content] scouts

eqtaka · 12-01-2004, 03:13 AM

One thought I had about Tanking higher level mobs could be skill related. Perhaps a skill like an Iron Skin or whatever SoE feels is a good name for a skill. It lasts as long as you have the power to do so. Perhaps like how Windwalk functions. This would have Monks to NOT use special skills in order to insure having enough power to tank that Dragon and taunt, therefore taking away some DPS and maintaining Class balance . No new armor graphics needed and they can use the same mitigation tables already in place.

GangsterFi · 12-01-2004, 03:31 AM

I was thinking make it more of a concentration buff. Making you decide which mode you want to do into for the monk. Tank mode, or DPS mode.

Dovifat · 12-01-2004, 03:54 AM

eqtaka wrote:I'm not sure if upping our evasion is the answer here. Upping evasion would make us invincible to blue con mobs no matter how many there are.

eqtaka · 12-01-2004, 04:17 AM

I agree there won't be a quick fix here. Mitigation tanks have been with EQ for 5 some years. The avoidance Tank is brand new, and exciting I must add. More then suggesting this is better then that, I'm interested in this thread because I hope it gives developers ideas that perhaps they haven't come up with yet. I see a lot of interesting ideals from lots of Monks gamewide. It's really great.

Blaze · 12-01-2004, 04:34 AM

Well the situation is pretty disapointing. I find all I do in groups is attack the mob from behind with the scouts. Only I cant backstab. And I defintly cant tank with any kind of consistency. Doesnt seem very balenced.Hopefully SOE will one day fix this class, untill then I am rerolling a berserker.

Cora · 12-01-2004, 04:36 AM

Blaze79 wrote:
I find all I do in groups is attack the mob from behind with the scouts.

Ditto

Sant · 12-01-2004, 07:16 AM

I started a swashbuckler and will come back to my monk when they have a reason to be in the game. If they up the damage so that we are a viable choice compaired to a scout I will play him, if they do something to make us better tanks. I'll play him, I really want to play him but I dont want to play a character that is a pity choice in any group.

Our DPS is good but not worth taking compaired to a scout, our Tanking ability is OK but not worth taking over a Warrior. We have OK buffs but nothing to pick us for, All in all Monks are middle of the road in everything and no one wants average when they can have good. So beware ladies a new Swashbuckler is in town.

Yinmaren · 12-01-2004, 09:58 AM

Here lies the problem with everyone that is complaining about monks: You say you don't want to be the best, but you want to be equal making you on par with the best. Every scout class plays completely differently, every mage class plays completely different, every priest class plays completely differently, and every fighter class plays completely different. While you may want what is equal in your eyes, let us look at it from a guardian/berserkers perspective.

If a player chose guardian, they probably did this because they wanted to be able to take lots of dmg, and be able to wear lots of armor. They wanted to be completely defensive. They wanted to be the main tank in the group. If monks were put on par with guardians in tanking ability, guardians would become absolete and no longer needed. Monks bring much more utility than a guardian and making us tank just as well as them does nothing but make a class undesirable.

If a player chose berserker, they probably wanted to be the same as a guardian but sacrifice a little defense for some offense. They wanted to do some dmg while still being able to be the MT. The same applies here.

Same with pallys. Same with SK's.

I do agree that monks need a definite tone up in the tanking department, but I personally do not think it is any of the afore mentioned that should be tweaked. I believe that SOE should build on our skills more, however, here lies the problem with that. Adept 1 Martial Focus gives something like 15 to all defensive skills. Getting Master 3 of MF would make us an almost unhittable force for 30 seconds.. especially with our defensive stance. I think they should make MF a 1 or 2 conc abillity that is permanent for the group. This would make us more wanted in groups because of the added utility, make us tank better permanently, and it could stack with our other defensive abilities, however, in order to balance this powerhouse of defense out, the player would have to choose on whether less hate on the healer/dmg reduction on the MT would be more important (those would be made conc too).

Tweaking allready given skills is the answer, not giving us more DPS or make our chance to evade more.

Sant · 12-01-2004, 10:12 AM

The thing is there is no good reason to pick a monk for a group. Sure we look cool but there are better classes for everything we can do. Scouts do better damage and have better armor. Bezerkers do as good a damage and have better armor. What exactly is the job of a monk.

OK lets say its ST but a swashbuckler has a tuant and a mez and a snare all better for a ST then anything a monk can do. We all know we are the weakest when it comes to tanking of the fighter classes, OK thats fine but if we are going to be alocated to the secondary Melee slot then we need to have something that makes us usefull. In eq1 we were great pullers and did really good damage but couldnt tank for crap, Here we do good damage but nothing compaired to what EQ1 monks did we can tank a little better but so what thats a last resort not a first choice. by making us watered down tanks rather then good DPS they have taken away the only thing that made monks worth having around.

I want to play a monk I love the martial arts theme and Feign Death but if it means I have to solo or get pity grouped then I dont want it.

Blaze · 12-01-2004, 08:05 PM

Yin has a point. Most plate classes REALLY dont want to monks to be able to tank. I have read the other fighter formums, and they think it will take away from thier jobs. Which is not true at all. Even if plate tanks were only 5% better they would still get picked first for groups. Because everyone always wants the best. Right now they are so much better that monks are not even considered tanks by many. My monk is level 21 and I have never, not once got a invite from a group that wanted me to be the MT. I am always in the last to fill, take anyone spot in groups. To give you a idea of how bad our image is. There are people that think swashbucklers with thier medium armor can out tank monks!(ill give you a link to the thread if ya want) Now I am not saying I belive that. But the fact that that compairson even exists shows we have a serious problem. Make me a real tank or double my DPS.

Message Edited by Blaze79 on 12-01-2004 07:07 AM

tkemo · 12-01-2004, 10:18 PM

I agree with monks not being selected to tank and its probably for a good reason. I have been in groups that are fighting MOBs 2 to 3 levels higher than me and when I do take a hit from what we are attacking, because I cause the tank to loose aggro from my dmg output, I tend to take the full damage. At my current level with buffs I think I get about 1000hp give or take, when I get hit for 300 - 400dmg from one hit, I dont think tanking more than one of that mob, or that mob and something else is even viable.

Now a paladin at the same level with good armor seems to have no trouble mitigating that same damage. So I dont look to be the main tank, I feel I can serve other purposes in a group and the MT is not the role I usually look for.

The other thing, I "START" groups if I can't find one. Alot of people are so passive in regards to this. Join a guild or whip out the /who all and locate the classes that are LFG always seems to be a bunch and get yourself a group instead of complaining that you can't get a group because no one wants you.

Someone had brought up an interesting point in another thread about the reason there is no PVP in this game is to keep ppl from complaining about balancing classes for PVP combat. I guess that is a moot point in regards to this post seems that people want balancing for PVE as well. I suggest if you want to play a certain role in a group select the ArchType - SubClass that plays that role. I guess alot of us are confused as to what our role is but it looks like we are a jack of all trades, good at a lot of things, great at nothing which I am ok with.

Message Edited by tkemory on 12-01-2004 09:18 AM

RyniNevertan · 12-01-2004, 10:48 PM

TK -

It isn't that we are confused as to what our current role in groups is. We are confused by the bait and switch. SOE advertised this:

All Fighters are Tanks...

All Monks are Fighters...

The problem is that...

All Monks can't tank

If you read through the entire thread, us monk sare looking to be a viable playable sub-class. We want to be invited to a group for our skill set, not because a group has 5 people in it and no one else is looking for a group at that exact second. We aren't saying that we should be the MT, however even as an off tank if I manage to pull a mob of the healer, 4 hits at 300 plus and I am done. The basis for the entire sub-class is great, we just need our skills to match the niche that we seem to fall in.

Cora · 12-01-2004, 11:01 PM

This monks are 'secondary offtanks' is bs, if the group needs tanking that badly, they'll get two guardians or berserkers since they are better at tanking.

Ashk · 12-02-2004, 02:12 AM

I have my Monk up to level 21 (almost 22) with 3 of the Armor Quest items and I'm really starting to dislike my character. I was under the impression that the need for the Monks to use light armor would be offset by their parry/deflection abilities, which definitely has not been the case. It seems like anything even con or higher always hits me, even if I running Staggering Stance or Martial Focus (which seems to do nothing when I have Brawlers Stance up) and both of those powers are Adept 1. Every time I join a group, people expect me to tank and I have to show them what will happen if I do - i.e hit Feign Death. They think its funny but I think its sad.

So if I can't tank worth a darn, I should be able to do some damage, right? Well no. I have 2-3 powers that can do some damage right now - Rapid Swings (misses alot, 30s recast), Bruising Strike (misses a lot, 30s recast and damages me....ok?) and Thrust Kick/Flying Kick which both will net me around 65-85 damage against a blue con also with a 10-15s recast. All of my attacks are either Adept 1 or App 3 (which are all but impossible to find outside of a broker who is charging 4gp for them).

Lets take a look at my other bunk powers.

Toughness - already gray and raises my AC by like 15 points or something so that doesnt help.
Call to Arms - I really haven't noticed much of a boost with this active but it makes me feel like I'm doing something if I pop it.
Martial Focus - Doesn't seem to stack with Brawlers Stance so pretty useless since I'd rather have BS going than keep popping MF every 30 seconds.
Indomitable Will - Haven't found a use for this at all.
Shoulder Charge - Never stuns anything and does like no damage.
Thundering Fists - Never ever stuns anything.
Mend - Doesn't seem to work on me and only does an 80 point heal every 5 minutes. Thats not even marginally useful.

And on top of that, it keeps saying I'm raising by ability in Deflection/Parry but it never shows up in actual gameplay. I get hit just as much which is much too frequent. Without a heal or a ward, I can't even be hit by 2 even level cons without my HP sinking very quickly.

So in short, I don't like my Monk at all, but since I'm at the same level as all of my friends, I can't really start over with a new char, so I'm kinda just stuck with him. Either make Deflection/Parry worth something against white/yellow enemies or increase our DPS, otherwise this class is just not very fun.

Message Edited by Ashkie on 12-01-2004 02:08 PM

Drakoli · 12-02-2004, 03:57 AM

TheSnooch Wrote:

I'm sorry but I disagree with you all. The Monk is part of the FIGHTER archetype, not the TANK archetype. We belong to the Monk OR Bruiser part of the tree. Not every fighter is considered a tank.

Im Sorry but I will have to Agree with everyone else on this. You are wrong about the monk not being a tank. SoE CLEARLY stated that every class under the chosen profession will be able to do its job equally as well as any other class of its type.

So yeah Sony fix the monks deflection/parrying skills or do something about out mitigation because I for one dont want to be last on the list for grouping when im 30+ because I know that its just going to get harder and harder to get groups if it keeps going on this way.

GangsterFi · 12-02-2004, 05:19 AM

So, after starting this thread, and then trying even harder to find a main role for the monk I have made some discoveries. I was with my guild in the bottom of varsoons fighitng level 33 -35 mobs at level 30. So they were all yellow ++ mobs. My guardian guildmate was with me. I was complaining about the monks being lumped into the fighter archetype and given certain skill sets that do not fit them. Like intervine (or staggering stance), is not a viable skill for a monk. I tried intervine once, I intercepted a bunch of damage really quick and died, really quick. So, there is really no point for a light armor tank to have intervine.Now, after discussing somethings, he offered me to tank and we would try out new tactics. These mobs can hit for around 500+ damage when they critical. So, it hurts. Our group configuration was, me (lvl 30 monk), 29 guardian, 25 shaman, 27 assasin, another guardian (lvl 26), and a druid (lvl 25). Now, the guardian cast sentinel, ally on me, and some other defensive buff. Then I started tanking, and I was taking pretty much no damage, the guardian was taking all my damage. If i added facing the mountain and martial focus + brawler stance (actually the upgrade to martial focus i forget what its called) added with the guardians ally skill my deflection was levels beyond oh what it should have been. I got hit on average like one out of every 10 swings or so with that much skill. Now, we fought a named, that hit harder and faster and the guardian let me tank again. At this point we were both curious of how well this tactic would carry over. Now this named hit hard and well we both dropped in HP pretty fast, which is bad for the healers to heal 2 tanks at the same time. The guardian out of instinct, hunkered down, which basically makes him a total meat shield and ups all his defenses but he cannot attack. Now, while the guardian was hunkered down I had to maintain aggro and tank. The tactic seemed to work. It worked pretty well too. Now, I just have to test it in different dungeons and against different kinds of mobs to find out how well it will work all around. The named guy we fought was just a melee guy, had no body guards, and did not cast. The named was like 5 lvls higher than me also, which was a problem I thought I was going to always have with the monk.I need to study the guardians skill sets more closely to make sure I am right about it. I think they can ally (+ deflection), sentinel (intervine), + another intervine skill (which i think stacks) and perhaps some others. Now who is to say that the guardian could not do that for a paladin, or a berzerker? Nobody, the guardian could do that for any fighter. Now, the question is, would it be worth trying against a big boss mob? I would try it to see how it works out, personally I am up for any kind of effeciency, but most people probably will not.My conclusion is, yeah you can make the monk an equal tank by doing this, but really the guardian is doing all the work, and taking all the damage, you re just holding aggro for him. If avoidance proves to be a vital factor in damage the guardian takes in combat, then yeah the monk/bruiser would be a great choice for this tactic. However, it needs to be tested more thoroughly to make it happen. Not to mention find a guardian that would actually let you try this, most of them probably won't let a monk tank. Luckily, I was with my guild and they were okay with it. So, everyone find a guardian and try this out, if it doesn't work that well for the monk and better with the berzerker then at least we found the guardians main role in combat. Which brings me to my next question, is that the guardians main role? The name of the class, "guardian", and the name of their skills seems to point that way, however I digress, we need to test this out more.So even though the monk may have some role in it, it still does not fix the issue at hand. The issue at hand would be to make the monk equal in some way or another. So, go out and try some things and then post them here, maybe we can at least find a way to make the monks role a bit more obvious for balance in the game.

Ashk · 12-02-2004, 07:30 AM

I don't think we need to test anything really. Basically you're saying in order to be a viable Tank or have a role, we need some other class. Thats no excuse. I could tank a lot of things if I had someone to just cast Ward on me all the time, but you don't. Heck anyone could tank with Ward on or with 2 healers healing you all the time. The issue here is not the Guardians role in combat, its the Monks.

Abi · 12-02-2004, 07:49 AM

well how about giving monks their "traditional" role? pulling?-give em ultraspeed for about 5sec., to pull things and dont get hit. (5times as fast as normal speed)-reliable feign death , so you can give the aggro to the MT if you pulled it to group/raid.-give em an unresitable ub0r taunt that just holds for 5sec, to pull off...well, some brainstorming and you can form the monk to some usefullness.

GangsterFi · 12-02-2004, 07:54 AM

Ashkie wrote:
I don't think we need to test anything really. Basically you're saying in order to be a viable Tank or have a role, we need some other class. Thats no excuse. I could tank a lot of things if I had someone to just cast Ward on me all the time, but you don't. Heck anyone could tank with Ward on or with 2 healers healing you all the time. The issue here is not the Guardians role in combat, its the Monks.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I was suggesting perhaps the monks role, is to be the guardians offense, and the guardians role would be to be the monks defense in an end game boss mob scenerio. They said all classes could tank equally but different. This combines both classes into one and takes the strengths from both, and their weaknesses offset each other.In a pick up group with two healers, not every tank can tank, even with wards and heals and regens. When you hit the level 30+ game and venture off to EL or OW, mobs will barrage you. Barrage is a AE frontal attack attack they perform that can hit as high as 650 damage. With light armor, and no mitigation, that hurts a lot. Add multiple mobs to the scenerio, it hurts even more. So even if you had the wards and heals you cannot just go in and attack stuff like that. you will die. So, when it comes down to it, I am behing the mob along with the scouts so I don't get hit by the frontal AoE attacks, or get riposted.

Ashk · 12-02-2004, 08:02 AM

Abian wrote:
well how about giving monks their "traditional" role? pulling?
-give em ultraspeed for about 5sec., to pull things and dont get hit. (5times as fast as normal speed)
-reliable feign death , so you can give the aggro to the MT if you pulled it to group/raid.
-give em an unresitable ub0r taunt that just holds for 5sec, to pull off
...
well, some brainstorming and you can form the monk to some usefullness.

Personally I was thinking that maybe they should have more reliable Stun/Knockdown attacks. Martial Arts is about balance, right? Well perhaps the Monks role should be to keep mobs off balance, moving from target to target knocking them around, disorienting them, stunning them and giving their team time to do some damage. Some of their attacks are already focused in this direction but they just don't work reliably (Shoulder Charge, Power Strike,Thundering Fists, even Focused Strike knocks cons to their feet when hit with it). These stuns/knockdowns shouldn't last half as long as a Mezzer can do, but they will do damage so its a trade off. Just an idea.

Sant · 12-02-2004, 08:11 AM

Accually Swashbucklers have alot more skills of that sort then monks do. They have knockdowns, mez, taunt, snare, defense and hate buffs and debuffs. A monks utilitys are not half as good. A swashbuckler is a better mob controller then a monk.

Ashk · 12-02-2004, 08:30 AM

Santsu wrote:

Accually Swashbucklers have alot more skills of that sort then monks do. They have knockdowns, mez, taunt, snare, defense and hate buffs and debuffs. A monks utilitys are not half as good. A swashbuckler is a better mob controller then a monk.

Well thats disappointing. We have most those same powers but ours just don't work very well heh.

11-30-2004, 10:41 PM	#32
eqtaka Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 17	This is a Good thread. I've been reading Wong's threads since he's been in beta. There a lot of good information here and a lot of sharing. I won't comment to much on what's already posted, but I'll add something I have. I found something on these boards a few months ago that was posted by SoE themselves. As we all know the forums were wiped clean when beta ended, but I did copy and paste some interesting information about Monks and Tanking and what SoE says Monks are supposed to be. Based on the information provided. Monk are supposed to Tank and Tank well. I'm not sure if upping our evasion is the answer here. Upping evasion would make us invincible to blue con mobs no matter how many there are. I think this is SoE issue with the Monk Class. I suggest they provide Monk class with better armor perhaps. I'm not sure if that would also make us invincible or not either, but perhaps deserves some looking into. Perhaps Samurai style armour, Bamboo laminated. Not as heavy as steel plate but better protection and quite mobile. I've seen martial artists in samurai armor. They can do cartwheels and tumble just fine, so it can still go along with what SoE is trying to target Monks as. Here is the quote that made me decide to go Monk vs Guardian. There are many incorrect assumptions in this thread because people are relying too much on what they know of monks in EQ. Aside from looks and the carryover of some skills and arts that have the same names, our monks are considerably different. While all fighter subclasses won't have the exact same hitpoint totals or damage output, those difference will be minor and will be balanced to add flavor rather than create disparity or undesirability in groups. There will certainly be nothing like the difference between monk and warrior hitpoint totals in EQ. In our game, monks are tanks. Monks will tank in groups; monks will tank in raids. There will be situations where they are the preferred type of tank, as well as situations where another fighter subclass might be more advantageous. But monks will have all the tools to do the job while still having a unique appeal. ============================ Moorgard EQII Community Guy __________________ Emerald Harmony Guild Leader - AB Server

11-30-2004, 11:05 PM	#34
PaNiK Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4	RyniNevertanks- i agree totally. In this game it seems that core classes (Fighter, Mages, Rogue, Clerics) are the only needed people in a successful group. Blanaced classes such as the monk are dreadful and uneeded. __________________ Godlike-- Level 15 -Brawler-

12-01-2004, 02:17 AM	#37
GangsterFi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 439	Coraz2 wrote: They think monks will get the group killed, drag entire group FD flop through a raid instance or something and res the priest to skip content. WoW nerfed the hell out of everything to keep my shaman from doing this. Message Edited by Coraz2 on 11-30-2004 01:02 PM Easy to fix. Make certain mobs immune to FD. Not to mention you can already do this. Its called freeboot (or smuggle). Get a rogue and you can group sneak everyone down to your proper position.

12-01-2004, 02:45 AM	#38
Cora Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 244	GangsterFist wrote: Coraz2 wrote: They think monks will get the group killed, drag entire group FD flop through a raid instance or something and res the priest to skip content. WoW nerfed the hell out of everything to keep my shaman from doing this. Message Edited by Coraz2 on 11-30-2004 01:02 PM Easy to fix. Make certain mobs immune to FD. Not to mention you can already do this. Its called freeboot (or smuggle). Get a rogue and you can group sneak everyone down to your proper position. [Removed for Content] scouts

12-01-2004, 03:13 AM	#39
eqtaka Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 17	One thought I had about Tanking higher level mobs could be skill related. Perhaps a skill like an Iron Skin or whatever SoE feels is a good name for a skill. It lasts as long as you have the power to do so. Perhaps like how Windwalk functions. This would have Monks to NOT use special skills in order to insure having enough power to tank that Dragon and taunt, therefore taking away some DPS and maintaining Class balance . No new armor graphics needed and they can use the same mitigation tables already in place. __________________ Emerald Harmony Guild Leader - AB Server

11-30-2004, 09:45 PM	#31
GangsterFi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 439	The problem with the untility of the monk is that, Mend only works so so, and when mobs are hitting for over 400 damage per a hit it basically heals one hit. Which is better than nothing but I would never depend on mend to save anyone, its a hit or miss kinda thing. Feign Death, well it works allright (like 75%) but the problem is when a group wipes because of a bad pull or aggro in a dungeon, they sometimes don't die in the clear. There might be a roaming mob, or even a mob standing right on top of them. Now, if SoE made monks able to drag the corpses, it would be way more useful. Monks could FD with a clickable and pull the priest and everyone's corpse to a safespot and then res the priest, and the priest could then res everyone else. That would make it a ton more useful. Even if they made it, so you had to be grouped or in raid party to drag corpses.As far as the main tank goes. Sure, monks can main tank but its not anywhere as effecient as letting heavy armor tanks tank. Then at the same time they need all these conditions to tank well. Intervine, ally, wards, haste, mob has to be slowed. You can't always get that configuration in a group. Also, 99% of the warriors I know won't want to let the monk tank. I tried the whole buff out thing in runnyeye last night and it seemed to work really well at first. Then we got 2 mobs on us casting barrage. Both me, and the guardian (who was intervine on me) fell in HP really fast. He was soaking up my damage, but there was just too much damage being dished so we both almost died. He took over MT and we won the fight. So, even when you can get the monk to work as a MT, its not a constant. We had been killing these things all night and every few encounters I would get spanked and the other times I did okay (not great) where the guardian did the same tank job all the way through.Maybe once I hit a few more levels it will change a bit, I will be lvl 30 tonight. However, as it stands the monk is not as good of a tank as a guardian or a berzerker.

11-30-2004, 10:51 PM	#33
RyniNevertan Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	OK, I spent 3 hours in TS last night and couldn't get a group. 93 people in zone, 43 (including me) were levels 20 23. I had my LFG tag on the entire time, everytime someone would zone in, 22 pally LFG or 21 wiz LFG, bam they found a spot. I don't mind not being able to be the MT, I am perfectly fine with off-tank. However, the problem with being a "utility" class, is that you don't do any thing really well, or at least not as good as the class that was designed to do that. My issue is that monks are having problems getting groups, I don't think that soloing all the way to 50 is going to be an enjoyable experience. ..my 2 copper Ryni

12-01-2004, 02:02 AM	#35
Cora Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 244	They think monks will get the group killed, drag entire group FD flop through a raid instance or something and res the priest to skip content. WoW nerfed the hell out of everything to keep my shaman from doing this. Message Edited by Coraz2 on 11-30-2004 01:02 PM

12-01-2004, 02:15 AM	#36
GangsterFi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 439	See, I do not wish for the monk to be all powerful and the best main tank ever. I want them to be equal. I want the monk class to be a wanted class for groups. I want them to be useful in some way. Here is the delima though, how do you fix the monk?Better avoidance?Better mitigation?Heavier armor?More DPS?These are all good ideas, but how do you go about it with out making the monk totally uber. SoE did one thing right here, its much easier to give a class something than it is to take it away. So starting simple is a good idea, in a certain point of view. Now, if the avoidance were to be increased even more, then monks would be invincible to blue and green ++ mobs. They would never get hit, and could probably solo them. That would unbalance the soloability of the classes and would not be fair to everyone else overall. Incrase mitigation from light armor. Yeah, but again we face the issues of how close you can take this from medium armor or heavy armor. It might be hard to balance items and economy then. I mean a heavy plate breast plate should be worth more than a leather armor breastplate, just from the materials and the effectiveness each offers. Give monks heaveir armor? No, that would throw everything off. More DPS? Yeah, that could work, but then once the monk approaches scout level of DPS well it won't be fair to the scouts. Even though scouts get medium armor and have tons of usefull skills (group sneak, disarm, evac, ect).My suggestion as a possible solution. Increase AC, avoidance, and DPS slightly. Not much, just a tad here and a tad there. Give monks a natural AC bonus (like iron body training), perhaps a small natural haste increase to up the DPS and tweak the avoidance tables to scale VS mob level. That way avoidance would not be out of hand when it comes to fighting lower con mobs. Monks are currently sitting in the gap from scout to fighter, if they just had a little push they could cross the line one way or the other. There is no reason monks need disarming skills, sneaks, ect. Thats not really what a monk would be about. I think with small increases of these three things could help balance the monk out. Let them take a bit less damage, make them avoid slightly better (and scale it versus mob level), and maybe add in a little natural haste increase to increase DPS just slightly. Avoidance is nice, but when mobs are hittng me for 650 damage from a barrage attack it really drains my HPs. These increases could easily be implemented at the level needed, and as the monk levels progress. I am not saying give the monk increases right away or right now, but scale it out to even up with the rest of the tanks. So every level the monks natural AC bonus would get bigger and bigger to compensate for the huge difference of mitigation over heavy armor. I know the heavy armor tanks will wine becuase we get free AC is this happens. I will tell you one thing I have also noticed playing through as a monk. Heavy armor pieces drop left and right like its nobodies business. I barely see any light armor drop. When I do see it drop, I actually never see it because its so rare. So, heavy armor fighters also get more equipment drops. I can't tell you how many platemail items I have seen drop over light armor items. The ratio has to be like 50:1. Of course, I know that I have no explored all over the lands yet. Maybe monks will have a dungeon of their own, just like dalnir in EQ1. Cool dungeon that dropped crappy items for monks, and that no one ever wanted to go to.I actually train martial arts and I love the monk class, so I am trying to make them a good playable class. I will probably max my monk out at 50 just to see how they turn out, but I hope its not in vein. I supported the monk in beta and said pretty much the same things I am saying now, and well I got ignored. A lot of nay sayers out there are afraid of the monk becoming a good tank. All the guardians keep telling me I am not in the tank archetype, and I keep telling them, yes I am. All fighters tank, as stated above.Another thing, please ditch the genie look. The monk quest armor looks horrible. I look like I should be in a circus or something. Where are the shaolin robes? And the big bead necklaces?

12-01-2004, 03:31 AM	#40
GangsterFi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 439	I was thinking make it more of a concentration buff. Making you decide which mode you want to do into for the monk. Tank mode, or DPS mode.

12-01-2004, 03:54 AM	#41
Dovifat Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 171	eqtaka wrote:I'm not sure if upping our evasion is the answer here. Upping evasion would make us invincible to blue con mobs no matter how many there are. The issue isnt so much the actual skill number of deflection/parry and all those other fancy abilities.- The whole concept of a luck based tank is somewhat flawed - chain wins or losses on rolls are unbalancing either way. - Unlike mitigation, the avoidance rolls are dependant on the level of the mob you go against. Here we have the core problem - how well someone can tank blues or greens matters little, as long as people are used to killing yellows of all kinds. SOE claimed to have fixed this two times in beta if i remember, couldnt notice any difference in game though. I dont have any knowledge about game coding, so i wont comment on how to possibly fix this. Having avoidance be a fixed value rather than the way it works now would however go a long way towards improving the brawler classes. Of course, solving the 139/100 deflection riddle would help as well - if the cap at lvl 30 was almost 40 points higher than it is now, things might look different. I however wouldnt hold my breath for a quick fix either way, SOE showed little interest in Brawlers' concerns in beta already.

12-01-2004, 04:17 AM	#42
eqtaka Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 17	I agree there won't be a quick fix here. Mitigation tanks have been with EQ for 5 some years. The avoidance Tank is brand new, and exciting I must add. More then suggesting this is better then that, I'm interested in this thread because I hope it gives developers ideas that perhaps they haven't come up with yet. I see a lot of interesting ideals from lots of Monks gamewide. It's really great. __________________ Emerald Harmony Guild Leader - AB Server

12-01-2004, 04:34 AM	#43
Blaze Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 68	Well the situation is pretty disapointing. I find all I do in groups is attack the mob from behind with the scouts. Only I cant backstab. And I defintly cant tank with any kind of consistency. Doesnt seem very balenced.Hopefully SOE will one day fix this class, untill then I am rerolling a berserker.

12-01-2004, 04:36 AM	#44
Cora Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 244	Blaze79 wrote: I find all I do in groups is attack the mob from behind with the scouts. Ditto

12-01-2004, 07:16 AM	#45
Sant Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 174	I started a swashbuckler and will come back to my monk when they have a reason to be in the game. If they up the damage so that we are a viable choice compaired to a scout I will play him, if they do something to make us better tanks. I'll play him, I really want to play him but I dont want to play a character that is a pity choice in any group. Our DPS is good but not worth taking compaired to a scout, our Tanking ability is OK but not worth taking over a Warrior. We have OK buffs but nothing to pick us for, All in all Monks are middle of the road in everything and no one wants average when they can have good. So beware ladies a new Swashbuckler is in town.

12-01-2004, 09:58 AM	#46
Yinmaren Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 34	Here lies the problem with everyone that is complaining about monks: You say you don't want to be the best, but you want to be equal making you on par with the best. Every scout class plays completely differently, every mage class plays completely different, every priest class plays completely differently, and every fighter class plays completely different. While you may want what is equal in your eyes, let us look at it from a guardian/berserkers perspective. If a player chose guardian, they probably did this because they wanted to be able to take lots of dmg, and be able to wear lots of armor. They wanted to be completely defensive. They wanted to be the main tank in the group. If monks were put on par with guardians in tanking ability, guardians would become absolete and no longer needed. Monks bring much more utility than a guardian and making us tank just as well as them does nothing but make a class undesirable. If a player chose berserker, they probably wanted to be the same as a guardian but sacrifice a little defense for some offense. They wanted to do some dmg while still being able to be the MT. The same applies here. Same with pallys. Same with SK's. I do agree that monks need a definite tone up in the tanking department, but I personally do not think it is any of the afore mentioned that should be tweaked. I believe that SOE should build on our skills more, however, here lies the problem with that. Adept 1 Martial Focus gives something like 15 to all defensive skills. Getting Master 3 of MF would make us an almost unhittable force for 30 seconds.. especially with our defensive stance. I think they should make MF a 1 or 2 conc abillity that is permanent for the group. This would make us more wanted in groups because of the added utility, make us tank better permanently, and it could stack with our other defensive abilities, however, in order to balance this powerhouse of defense out, the player would have to choose on whether less hate on the healer/dmg reduction on the MT would be more important (those would be made conc too). Tweaking allready given skills is the answer, not giving us more DPS or make our chance to evade more.

12-01-2004, 10:12 AM	#47
Sant Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 174	The thing is there is no good reason to pick a monk for a group. Sure we look cool but there are better classes for everything we can do. Scouts do better damage and have better armor. Bezerkers do as good a damage and have better armor. What exactly is the job of a monk. OK lets say its ST but a swashbuckler has a tuant and a mez and a snare all better for a ST then anything a monk can do. We all know we are the weakest when it comes to tanking of the fighter classes, OK thats fine but if we are going to be alocated to the secondary Melee slot then we need to have something that makes us usefull. In eq1 we were great pullers and did really good damage but couldnt tank for crap, Here we do good damage but nothing compaired to what EQ1 monks did we can tank a little better but so what thats a last resort not a first choice. by making us watered down tanks rather then good DPS they have taken away the only thing that made monks worth having around. I want to play a monk I love the martial arts theme and Feign Death but if it means I have to solo or get pity grouped then I dont want it.

12-01-2004, 08:05 PM	#48
Blaze Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 68	Yin has a point. Most plate classes REALLY dont want to monks to be able to tank. I have read the other fighter formums, and they think it will take away from thier jobs. Which is not true at all. Even if plate tanks were only 5% better they would still get picked first for groups. Because everyone always wants the best. Right now they are so much better that monks are not even considered tanks by many. My monk is level 21 and I have never, not once got a invite from a group that wanted me to be the MT. I am always in the last to fill, take anyone spot in groups. To give you a idea of how bad our image is. There are people that think swashbucklers with thier medium armor can out tank monks!(ill give you a link to the thread if ya want) Now I am not saying I belive that. But the fact that that compairson even exists shows we have a serious problem. Make me a real tank or double my DPS. Message Edited by Blaze79 on 12-01-2004 07:07 AM

12-01-2004, 10:18 PM	#49
tkemo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 23	I agree with monks not being selected to tank and its probably for a good reason. I have been in groups that are fighting MOBs 2 to 3 levels higher than me and when I do take a hit from what we are attacking, because I cause the tank to loose aggro from my dmg output, I tend to take the full damage. At my current level with buffs I think I get about 1000hp give or take, when I get hit for 300 - 400dmg from one hit, I dont think tanking more than one of that mob, or that mob and something else is even viable. Now a paladin at the same level with good armor seems to have no trouble mitigating that same damage. So I dont look to be the main tank, I feel I can serve other purposes in a group and the MT is not the role I usually look for. The other thing, I "START" groups if I can't find one. Alot of people are so passive in regards to this. Join a guild or whip out the /who all and locate the classes that are LFG always seems to be a bunch and get yourself a group instead of complaining that you can't get a group because no one wants you. Someone had brought up an interesting point in another thread about the reason there is no PVP in this game is to keep ppl from complaining about balancing classes for PVP combat. I guess that is a moot point in regards to this post seems that people want balancing for PVE as well. I suggest if you want to play a certain role in a group select the ArchType - SubClass that plays that role. I guess alot of us are confused as to what our role is but it looks like we are a jack of all trades, good at a lot of things, great at nothing which I am ok with. Message Edited by tkemory on 12-01-2004 09:18 AM

12-01-2004, 10:48 PM	#50
RyniNevertan Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	TK - It isn't that we are confused as to what our current role in groups is. We are confused by the bait and switch. SOE advertised this: All Fighters are Tanks... All Monks are Fighters... The problem is that... All Monks can't tank If you read through the entire thread, us monk sare looking to be a viable playable sub-class. We want to be invited to a group for our skill set, not because a group has 5 people in it and no one else is looking for a group at that exact second. We aren't saying that we should be the MT, however even as an off tank if I manage to pull a mob of the healer, 4 hits at 300 plus and I am done. The basis for the entire sub-class is great, we just need our skills to match the niche that we seem to fall in.

12-01-2004, 11:01 PM	#51
Cora Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 244	This monks are 'secondary offtanks' is bs, if the group needs tanking that badly, they'll get two guardians or berserkers since they are better at tanking.

12-02-2004, 02:12 AM	#52
Ashk Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	I have my Monk up to level 21 (almost 22) with 3 of the Armor Quest items and I'm really starting to dislike my character. I was under the impression that the need for the Monks to use light armor would be offset by their parry/deflection abilities, which definitely has not been the case. It seems like anything even con or higher always hits me, even if I running Staggering Stance or Martial Focus (which seems to do nothing when I have Brawlers Stance up) and both of those powers are Adept 1. Every time I join a group, people expect me to tank and I have to show them what will happen if I do - i.e hit Feign Death. They think its funny but I think its sad. So if I can't tank worth a darn, I should be able to do some damage, right? Well no. I have 2-3 powers that can do some damage right now - Rapid Swings (misses alot, 30s recast), Bruising Strike (misses a lot, 30s recast and damages me....ok?) and Thrust Kick/Flying Kick which both will net me around 65-85 damage against a blue con also with a 10-15s recast. All of my attacks are either Adept 1 or App 3 (which are all but impossible to find outside of a broker who is charging 4gp for them). Lets take a look at my other bunk powers. Toughness - already gray and raises my AC by like 15 points or something so that doesnt help. Call to Arms - I really haven't noticed much of a boost with this active but it makes me feel like I'm doing something if I pop it. Martial Focus - Doesn't seem to stack with Brawlers Stance so pretty useless since I'd rather have BS going than keep popping MF every 30 seconds. Indomitable Will - Haven't found a use for this at all. Shoulder Charge - Never stuns anything and does like no damage. Thundering Fists - Never ever stuns anything. Mend - Doesn't seem to work on me and only does an 80 point heal every 5 minutes. Thats not even marginally useful. And on top of that, it keeps saying I'm raising by ability in Deflection/Parry but it never shows up in actual gameplay. I get hit just as much which is much too frequent. Without a heal or a ward, I can't even be hit by 2 even level cons without my HP sinking very quickly. So in short, I don't like my Monk at all, but since I'm at the same level as all of my friends, I can't really start over with a new char, so I'm kinda just stuck with him. Either make Deflection/Parry worth something against white/yellow enemies or increase our DPS, otherwise this class is just not very fun. Message Edited by Ashkie on 12-01-2004 02:08 PM

12-02-2004, 03:57 AM	#53
Drakoli Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1	TheSnooch Wrote: I'm sorry but I disagree with you all. The Monk is part of the FIGHTER archetype, not the TANK archetype. We belong to the Monk OR Bruiser part of the tree. Not every fighter is considered a tank. Im Sorry but I will have to Agree with everyone else on this. You are wrong about the monk not being a tank. SoE CLEARLY stated that every class under the chosen profession will be able to do its job equally as well as any other class of its type. So yeah Sony fix the monks deflection/parrying skills or do something about out mitigation because I for one dont want to be last on the list for grouping when im 30+ because I know that its just going to get harder and harder to get groups if it keeps going on this way.

12-02-2004, 05:19 AM	#54
GangsterFi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 439	So, after starting this thread, and then trying even harder to find a main role for the monk I have made some discoveries. I was with my guild in the bottom of varsoons fighitng level 33 -35 mobs at level 30. So they were all yellow ++ mobs. My guardian guildmate was with me. I was complaining about the monks being lumped into the fighter archetype and given certain skill sets that do not fit them. Like intervine (or staggering stance), is not a viable skill for a monk. I tried intervine once, I intercepted a bunch of damage really quick and died, really quick. So, there is really no point for a light armor tank to have intervine.Now, after discussing somethings, he offered me to tank and we would try out new tactics. These mobs can hit for around 500+ damage when they critical. So, it hurts. Our group configuration was, me (lvl 30 monk), 29 guardian, 25 shaman, 27 assasin, another guardian (lvl 26), and a druid (lvl 25). Now, the guardian cast sentinel, ally on me, and some other defensive buff. Then I started tanking, and I was taking pretty much no damage, the guardian was taking all my damage. If i added facing the mountain and martial focus + brawler stance (actually the upgrade to martial focus i forget what its called) added with the guardians ally skill my deflection was levels beyond oh what it should have been. I got hit on average like one out of every 10 swings or so with that much skill. Now, we fought a named, that hit harder and faster and the guardian let me tank again. At this point we were both curious of how well this tactic would carry over. Now this named hit hard and well we both dropped in HP pretty fast, which is bad for the healers to heal 2 tanks at the same time. The guardian out of instinct, hunkered down, which basically makes him a total meat shield and ups all his defenses but he cannot attack. Now, while the guardian was hunkered down I had to maintain aggro and tank. The tactic seemed to work. It worked pretty well too. Now, I just have to test it in different dungeons and against different kinds of mobs to find out how well it will work all around. The named guy we fought was just a melee guy, had no body guards, and did not cast. The named was like 5 lvls higher than me also, which was a problem I thought I was going to always have with the monk.I need to study the guardians skill sets more closely to make sure I am right about it. I think they can ally (+ deflection), sentinel (intervine), + another intervine skill (which i think stacks) and perhaps some others. Now who is to say that the guardian could not do that for a paladin, or a berzerker? Nobody, the guardian could do that for any fighter. Now, the question is, would it be worth trying against a big boss mob? I would try it to see how it works out, personally I am up for any kind of effeciency, but most people probably will not.My conclusion is, yeah you can make the monk an equal tank by doing this, but really the guardian is doing all the work, and taking all the damage, you re just holding aggro for him. If avoidance proves to be a vital factor in damage the guardian takes in combat, then yeah the monk/bruiser would be a great choice for this tactic. However, it needs to be tested more thoroughly to make it happen. Not to mention find a guardian that would actually let you try this, most of them probably won't let a monk tank. Luckily, I was with my guild and they were okay with it. So, everyone find a guardian and try this out, if it doesn't work that well for the monk and better with the berzerker then at least we found the guardians main role in combat. Which brings me to my next question, is that the guardians main role? The name of the class, "guardian", and the name of their skills seems to point that way, however I digress, we need to test this out more.So even though the monk may have some role in it, it still does not fix the issue at hand. The issue at hand would be to make the monk equal in some way or another. So, go out and try some things and then post them here, maybe we can at least find a way to make the monks role a bit more obvious for balance in the game.

12-02-2004, 07:30 AM	#55
Ashk Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	I don't think we need to test anything really. Basically you're saying in order to be a viable Tank or have a role, we need some other class. Thats no excuse. I could tank a lot of things if I had someone to just cast Ward on me all the time, but you don't. Heck anyone could tank with Ward on or with 2 healers healing you all the time. The issue here is not the Guardians role in combat, its the Monks.

12-02-2004, 07:49 AM	#56
Abi General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 56	well how about giving monks their "traditional" role? pulling?-give em ultraspeed for about 5sec., to pull things and dont get hit. (5times as fast as normal speed)-reliable feign death , so you can give the aggro to the MT if you pulled it to group/raid.-give em an unresitable ub0r taunt that just holds for 5sec, to pull off...well, some brainstorming and you can form the monk to some usefullness. __________________

12-02-2004, 07:54 AM	#57
GangsterFi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 439	Ashkie wrote: I don't think we need to test anything really. Basically you're saying in order to be a viable Tank or have a role, we need some other class. Thats no excuse. I could tank a lot of things if I had someone to just cast Ward on me all the time, but you don't. Heck anyone could tank with Ward on or with 2 healers healing you all the time. The issue here is not the Guardians role in combat, its the Monks. Maybe I wasn't clear. I was suggesting perhaps the monks role, is to be the guardians offense, and the guardians role would be to be the monks defense in an end game boss mob scenerio. They said all classes could tank equally but different. This combines both classes into one and takes the strengths from both, and their weaknesses offset each other.In a pick up group with two healers, not every tank can tank, even with wards and heals and regens. When you hit the level 30+ game and venture off to EL or OW, mobs will barrage you. Barrage is a AE frontal attack attack they perform that can hit as high as 650 damage. With light armor, and no mitigation, that hurts a lot. Add multiple mobs to the scenerio, it hurts even more. So even if you had the wards and heals you cannot just go in and attack stuff like that. you will die. So, when it comes down to it, I am behing the mob along with the scouts so I don't get hit by the frontal AoE attacks, or get riposted.

12-02-2004, 08:02 AM	#58
Ashk Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	Abian wrote: well how about giving monks their "traditional" role? pulling? -give em ultraspeed for about 5sec., to pull things and dont get hit. (5times as fast as normal speed) -reliable feign death , so you can give the aggro to the MT if you pulled it to group/raid. -give em an unresitable ub0r taunt that just holds for 5sec, to pull off ... well, some brainstorming and you can form the monk to some usefullness. Personally I was thinking that maybe they should have more reliable Stun/Knockdown attacks. Martial Arts is about balance, right? Well perhaps the Monks role should be to keep mobs off balance, moving from target to target knocking them around, disorienting them, stunning them and giving their team time to do some damage. Some of their attacks are already focused in this direction but they just don't work reliably (Shoulder Charge, Power Strike,Thundering Fists, even Focused Strike knocks cons to their feet when hit with it). These stuns/knockdowns shouldn't last half as long as a Mezzer can do, but they will do damage so its a trade off. Just an idea.

12-02-2004, 08:11 AM	#59
Sant Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 174	Accually Swashbucklers have alot more skills of that sort then monks do. They have knockdowns, mez, taunt, snare, defense and hate buffs and debuffs. A monks utilitys are not half as good. A swashbuckler is a better mob controller then a monk.

12-02-2004, 08:30 AM	#60
Ashk Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 12	Santsu wrote: Accually Swashbucklers have alot more skills of that sort then monks do. They have knockdowns, mez, taunt, snare, defense and hate buffs and debuffs. A monks utilitys are not half as good. A swashbuckler is a better mob controller then a monk. Well thats disappointing. We have most those same powers but ours just don't work very well heh.