Two Handers or Dual Wield?

[khurath]

Ok, as the title says I really don't know if it's better to have a two hander or two weapons.

Basically, from what I saw two weapons seems more effective, but it may be only an impression.

I tried with both stances, offensive and defensive, and anytime it seems that my damage output is higher with two weapons.

I read though that the weapon procs are affected by the weapon's delay, and some people on this forum say that higher damage weapons proc higher damage with the offensive stance.

I examined my Fury, but it says that you proc ## - ## dam 10% of the time (I don't remember exact damage, but it's not weapon-related), so it seems to me that hitting more often would proc more often for a higher damage output.

Anybody can explain exactly how it works and their personal preference (and why) of 2H vs Dual Wield?

Thanks.

 

lvl 30 Kerra Berserker

Oasis server

[Fundi]

     Dual wield is better hands down if you can find good dual wield weapons.  Offensive stance has a 10% chance to deal damage when we hit a mob, and you're hitting a lot more when you have dual wields.  Offending Defense has a 20% chance to proc when we hit.  Dual wield owns 2h when you're dpsing. 

[Sokolov]

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Fundinn wrote:     Dual wield is better hands down if you can find good dual wield weapons.  Offensive stance has a 10% chance to deal damage when we hit a mob, and you're hitting a lot more when you have dual wields.  Offending Defense has a 20% chance to proc when we hit.  Dual wield owns 2h when you're dpsing. 

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??? Was this changed in the revamp?

[kono]

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Fundinn wrote:
    Dual wield is better hands down if you can find good dual wield weapons.  Offensive stance has a 10% chance to deal damage when we hit a mob, and you're hitting a lot more when you have dual wields.  Offending Defense has a 20% chance to proc when we hit.  Dual wield owns 2h when you're dpsing. 

---

First, Offending Defense is a defensive proc, not offensive.  It doesn't matter what you're swinging, or even that you're swinging at all.

 

Also, the chance to fire an offensive proc is normalized against a 3-second combat round.  Do some long-term parsing and you should find that both weapon arrangements fire your offensive stance's proc at a similar rate.

 

najena.konk

[Sokolov]

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konofo wrote:

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Fundinn wrote:    Dual wield is better hands down if you can find good dual wield weapons.  Offensive stance has a 10% chance to deal damage when we hit a mob, and you're hitting a lot more when you have dual wields.  Offending Defense has a 20% chance to proc when we hit.  Dual wield owns 2h when you're dpsing. 

---

First, Offending Defense is a defensive proc, not offensive.  It doesn't matter what you're swinging, or even that you're swinging at all.

 

Also, the chance to fire an offensive proc is normalized against a 3-second combat round.  Do some long-term parsing and you should find that both weapon arrangements fire your offensive stance's proc at a similar rate.

 

najena.konk

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Also: Additional strikes due to haste and CAs are not normalized, thus, a slower weapon actually ends up proccing "more."  If you use a longbow to pull you will find it almost always procs something on the pull shot due to it having higher delay than melee weapons. I personally used 2-hand weapons nearly exclusively prior to the revamp.  Since the revamp tho a shield significantly improves tanking performance so it's 1hander and shield for me sometimes, and 2-hander other times.  Dual Wield does not even enter the equation.

[Kodachi]

I dont parse (cause im too lazy), but I had noticed that I proc less often with dual wielders than with a two hander, which I thought was really weird but your explanation makes sense.   I had read once that to compare dmg modifiers on your dual wield weapons you should take the dmg rating of your primary hand and add about 40% of the damage rating of your off hander.  If this number is not higher than your damage rating on your two hander, then its not as good.   Maybe the parsers out there can confirm or deny that.  The theroy is that dual wield is a skill that doesn't always go off, and your off hander will only swing about 40% of the time. I have never really dual wielded, but about to finish SSoY quest and have a SBD in the bank so I thought I would try those out vs my cedarwood bo staff with gleaming strike.  Pretty sure they wont compare though.  Also agree with above poster that for tanking hard monsters the shield makes a big difference, so also need to have a good onehander handy . Indya 47 Berserker Rat

[kr8ztwin]

I parse slightly higher with a 2-H in DPS and I also receive less damage.  You get risposted much less on basic melee. 

I think I also hit more melee damage with a 2-h because of the long weapon delay letting me throw combat arts inside em and I get less (lag) in attacks.

[xandez]

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Fundinn wrote: Dual wield is better hands down if you can find good dual wield weapons. Offensive stance has a 10% chance to deal damage when we hit a mob, and you're hitting a lot more when you have dual wields. Offending Defense has a 20% chance to proc when we hit. Dual wield owns 2h when you're dpsing.

---

I would have to totally disagree with Fundinn in this issue. Imho, a 2-hander is hands down way better than dual wield weapons if it comes JUST to the terms of DPS. Why? Many of the above posts already explain why so i wont go into details. Things like lesser ripostes, proc rate actually HIGHER (yes since the 3s thingy) and the fact that you dont _miss_ melee attacks while using long cast time skills (like 2s barrage) are a factor. Also, i happen to love 2-handers (since i already use dual wielders with my scout already i dont wanna use em with my zerker even if they were even with the 2-handers or better) ++Xan

[Dashel]

2 handers vrs DW.  My rule is:  Use whichever is better, upgrade whichever is worse.   I like to carry a whole range of weapons.  Main priority is to get yourself at least one each of legendary Slash Pierce and Crush type.  Right now I'm still using the SSoY and SBD because they were still a nice combo when I stopped playing and havent upgraded yet.  They still do fine for me.  Some friends gave me a nice new 2 hander though so I'll likely switch over to that more often.  Rujarkian Steel Axe is the name I think. 

[Medd]

I used the SDB and the PGT until i got my EBBC, so i think that two handers are better as far as damage goes. Oh, and i never bothered with the SSoY becuase the ward proc on the PGT helps alot when soloing or tanking.

[-Aonein-]

When Dual Weilding now your Primary weapon does more damage then your offhand does. I can out damage a Berserker with a 2 hand weapon no problem at all now.

Riposte rate to 2hand riposte rate is comparable, nethier will get you killed faster then the other unless the mob has a Damage Sheild on, then Dual Weilding is dangerous.

 

[GurgTheBash]

In another thread, I just did a comparison of zerker melee with dual and two-hand, using figures obtained from my mid-30's experiments.

 

I worked from average melee swing for 2 hand of 75 (50-100 dmg per swing with weapon in hand, 2.5 second swing) and 25 per weapon for duals (20-30 dmg per swing, 1.2 second swings unbuffed), GS imbued weapons, and ONLY the 10% countering-strike buffs figures, since SKILL strikes do the same damage (based on spell level), recast at same rate, and so on, regardless of what you're using.

 

 

What I arived at is that between imbued procs, the berserking resulting from being hit, and so on, is basically a 1500 - 1600 damage difference between using two-hand and duals, to the advantage of the dual user.

 

 

At 43 (current level), if I buy cheapie two-hand and cheapie dual off arms merchant, to compare, my DPS/attack rating is actually higher with the duals, as well...so I suspect this difference is steady all the way up levels, though I'm not in a position any longer to buy best GS imbued two-hand weapon for 40-50 use I can find AND best GS imbued dual-wields so I can do direct test on myself...but what I CAN say, from duelling, is that I have yet to lose to a berserker using anything other than duals, if he's within 3-4 levels of myself, even if that level advantage puts him in next tier gear (three duels against level 42 and 43 berzerkers using two-handed imbued weapons when I was 39...worst one, I had 38% HP and 24% power remaining when she dropped)

 

 

 

 

 

On the OTHER hand...a pally with one-hand and shield makes me work my bloody barbarian butt off, and often manages to chain-stun/impede movement often enough to kill me before he's had a need to waste power on self-heals. Berserker skills that "interrupt" casting and are available to dual wielders don't fire off fast enough to balance this.

[Stuntie]

Big Axe.
Big big big big sharp shiny axe.

Anything else is for girls and elves.
How can you aim to be a raving homicidal maniac without an axe.

Don't care if someone brings proof that anything else does better damage. I like me axe.

[GurgTheBash]

You know what's better than one axe? TWO axes that you can indiscriminately flail around at everything in the area with, slashing and bashing until you're knee-deep in blood and gore.

 

 

Dualies win again :robotmad:

[Ethelwo]

If your soloing or tanking you need a one hander and a shield or you avoidance will be the pits and you'll be to stunned to hit with any weapon. For the dps roll, it really depends on your choose. both duel and 2hnder yield good dps results. Of course the new cobalt duel wield weapons have very nice stats and damage. Haven't seen a cobalt 2hnder yet.

[SirPrec!ze]

It all depends on what kind of dw and 2 handers u have. But i still notice that my 2 handed pris does more damage than 2 cedar quarterstaffs but i still like using the quarterstaffs for the nice graphics on em

Message Edited by SirPrec!ze on 09-21-2005 11:30 AM

[GurgTheBash]

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Ethelwolf wrote:
If your soloing or tanking you need a one hander and a shield or you avoidance will be the pits and you'll be to stunned to hit with any weapon.

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I haven't seen this to be true through RoV, Nek Castle, Zek, EL, RE, Rivervale, Feerrott, CT, or Lavastorm...I get interrupted in casts on the two spells I regularly use that have long casts (the AEs), and if I try to use stunning cry or cold retribution, they often get interrupted, too, but I am rarely stunned into losing melee, nor are my other skills impeded at all, since they cast so quickly...I solo just fine against anything up to 3 levels higher than me that cons "normal", groups of 4-5 white-con "normals", singleup heroics two levels down, doubleup heroics 5 levels down, and so on, and tank just fine in CT against the 49 tripleup trios and the summoner's pet, with a 4 person group consisting of myself, mystic/warden/fury, and a pair of nukers, noone over 43, and the healer just 38, in one case (XP rocks, when I do this, too)...plus the added DPS of dual wield means I hold aggro better, and less often have to cast like crazy to reaquire it after the ukers chain-blast the targets.

 

 

MIGHT turn out to be true in EF and above...but I haven't been in yet to try it.

[z2xm]

For me I feel as if DW is doing more damage for me.

 

In my parses I noticed that there was not a huge gap between the two so I sort of just go with whatever I feel like at the moment.  Currently I am either DW two cedar crudgels, or the BBC (plain version, non electrified) so part of it for me is that the BBC lacks a damage proc of its own, I have a feeling the two would be close enough to matter very little if I had a good proc on my 2h.  The damage rating is the same, but the crudgels win out with their combined 26 agi and 16 str.  So for me it is more of going with slightly better stats and what I feel appears to do more damage based on in game factors (how quick stuff dies, how much damage i take, how much power I use, etc...)

 

That being said I pretty much only use either of those when solo or duo or in a trio with no healer.  Otherwise I use the SBS and SM/cedar club.  I feel like in a larger group there are other classes who are now so much better at dps then me that I am better off catering to my stregth, which is taking damage and not dieing.  I use the offensive stance if there are 2 healers, unless they still seem to have problems healing me, though I only notice this happening with poor choices of healer combinations such as two of the same or two that do not compliment each other.

 

Jinos

L D'L

[Link27]

the stats on the 2 handed tend to be better than the dual weild.

There's very little reason to go anything but RGF, if you dont have prismatics. the proc is insane damage, and it gives +27 STR, and i think its +24 STA.

[GurgTheBash]

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Link27 wrote:

the stats on the 2 handed tend to be better than the dual weild.

There's very little reason to go anything but RGF, if you dont have prismatics. the proc is insane damage, and it gives +27 STR, and i think its +24 STA.

---

Yeah...but are they enough better to match the stats on a pair of DW weapons? That's what really matters, you know.

 

If you find a 2H that does 10 str, 4 wis, 6 agi, 8 sta, it's stats boosts compare equally with a pair of DW that EACH do 5 str 2 wis 3 agi and 4 sta, after all...

 

 

As for DPS matching for melee figures... use this calc to compare weapons:

 

# of hits per cycle you'll make with this weapon equipped / average delay * damage range

 

That will give you the "bare bones" DPS of the weapon

 

so...say you're looking at slashing weapons, 30-40, and you notice (I'm gonna list crap weapons with no stats and no procs, to do this)

Feyiron Greatsword    2H      16-49 dmg     2.5 seconds

Feyiron Scimitar         1H        7-22 dmg     1.3 seconds

Feyiron Short Sword   DW     4-12 dmg     1.2 seconds

 

 

Well, what you'll get is this: With dual wield, you hit once with each weapon per cycle, and cycle every 1.2 seconds, so base melee DPS  figures to compare go like this:

 

Feyiron SS ( 2 / 1.2 ) 4 - ( 2 / 1.2 ) 12 = (1.6666~ * 4) through ( 1.666666 * 12 ) damage per second, or  6.666~ - 20 DPS "rating" on using the pair

Feyiron Sc ( 1 / 1.3 ) 7 - ( 1 / 1.3 ) 22 = ( 0.769 * 7) through ( 0.769 * 22 ), or 5.38461 - 16.923 DPS "rating" on weapon

Feyiron GS ( 1 / 2.5 ) 16 - (1 / 2.5 ) 49 = ( 0.4 * 16) though ( 0.4 * 49 ), or 6.4 - 19.6 DPS "rating" on the weapon

 

The actual DPS for the weapon, is, of course, dependant on what your stats boost the "your hands" range to...but if they're all slashign weapons you're looking at, your slashing rating and stats aren't going to change by changing weapons that don't have stats, so those are the comparisons on the damage ranges of those weapons on a per-second basis if they're each placed in the hands of the same person.

 

 

As you can see form above, matching melee on a 2H vs dual wield is pretty close...marginally favors the DW, if all other things are equal, but I've found that comparing stats boosting DW and 2H of the same ltier/rarity tends to give a SLIGHT advantage to the DW, and, as I'm trying to convince Sabin in another thread, gives the oppertunity, with imbueds, to double the number of procs you can expect...the only real diff in melee effect is how big a jump the mob's health bar makes downwards every time you swing...with DW, it tends to drop steadily and slowly, with 2H, it drops fitfully in bigger jumps.

 

Also, since you rarely fight a mob for 100 seconds, you're more likely to make crits on each mob using duals than when using 1H/2H, even though thos crits are comparitavely smaller...I'd rather do an additional 33 damage per 33 seconds of fighting through crits than an additional 99 damage every 99 seconds of fighting, because, generally, that means I kill EACH mob faster, rather than being slow on two, and ripping through every third.

Message Edited by GurgTheBashur on 09-23-2005 12:36 AM

[Stuntie]

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Ethelwolf wrote:
 Haven't seen a cobalt 2hnder yet.

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A lot of the Cobalt recipes are bugged at the moment, including the Executioners Axe I believe.

Expect to see them when the fix arrives.

[-Aonein-]

I seen a Pristine Cobalt executioners axe tonight. Has a 62.7 dmg rating, stats arent much better then ebon, 62 hp and 64 power. 2.7 delay.

[Larsenex]

This is my experience and I am a 39 Zerker on AB server.

 

Sword N board (Pristine imbued Feysteel assault axe & Pristine imbued Oak tower shield)

 

Two hander (Pristine Imbued Greatsword)

 

DW (PGT and pristine imbued oak fighting baton)

 

I have fought Orcs in Zek since 33, and Combat went into effect at 34. This is what I have found, I am just noticing things. I tried many combos of stances on/off. What I have found hands down (for me) is Greater Fury+Two hander is the BEST combo for me when soloing! In any other combo my health goes down MORE than if I use that combo. I  get MANY procs with the Fury line with my sword and I rule over multi-encounter mobs such as bears and deer.

 

I can even take green no arrow HEROICs with this combo!

 

I own Gaurdians of EQUAL lvl with this combo! (my best friend is 39 guardian and it wasnt even close in dual).

 

When I tank in group I always use defensive and sword n board but when I am back up tank or soloing I will go 'all the way' offensive and it really does work for me.

 

Hope my input helps.

 

PS I base my info on rate of mob killed vrs my hps at end of any given melee. I take on solo ^ white con orcs and Orange no arrow orcs and Two hander is the way for me..

 

Thanks again.

[GurgTheBash]

funny, I find with DW, I can solo tripleup blues on the last level before they go green, or, in Feerrott, at level 43 I was soloing heroic level 37 5 parties of lizardmen (no arrows) and level 38 four parties of heroic no arrow thule stars.

 

My combo for this is greater rage, all three group buffs, recasting weapon shield as soon as it pops, imbued fulginate armor, and a pair of imbued fulginate spatha, along with a str imbued ring and a wis imbued ring.

 

once in a while, if the mender and disciple in the lizardmen groups get their heals timed right, I'm close to dying when the last one falls, and I'm ALWAYS OOP and having to purely melee the underhand (one I leave for last, when doing lizardmen), from recasting my weapon shield, casting BA and WW as soon as possible, and proccing HOs every time they become available...but usually, I have at least 25% HP when I've finished a group of lizardmen, and 30-35% when I finish satars.

 

 

So far, I can handle doubleups if they're two levels or more below me, as long as I cast the hell out of my CA's, and use the offending stance, as well, and single, no arrow heroics at my level, if they're melee, not caster, types.

 

 

Right after LU13, when I was 35, I found these basic balances to be about the same in the fields outside RoV, and rooms inside, in regards to skellies and gobbies...melee solos, I could take doubleups two levels under me with DW, three levels under me with 2H, tripleups were 4 and 5 levels below me, respectively (last level "blue" to me, and first level "green" to me, at that point).

 

But maybe our playstyles differ....I dunno.

[Sural_Argonus]

I think it's a matter of preference and point of view (both pre '13 and Post '13).

2h does a lot of damage in one hit, and has a long delay, and DW uses lighter weapons so they swing faster.

I prefer the DW...only for the speed...My little dwarf uses axes or hammers.  (just seems right that a dwarf zerker should use axes and hammers)

However depending on situation...I do carry 3 sets of weapons.  1 set of DW axes for general use, a 2h battle axe, and a 1h axe and shield.  Just really depends on what mood I am in.  The next thing on my shopping list is throwing hammers.  At least..I hope I can use throwing hammers.  lol  Haven't looked.

 

 

 

[Sabin the Gre]

This is a carry over from another thread, but end game, a big slow weapon is better far and away *except auto-attacking* (that's for you Gurg).  While DW's hit faster, you'll recieve the same amount % of hits and misses amongst weapons of the same tier, and the same amount of average physical non-proc'ing damage.  Where 2-hand really shines is the more CA's you use.  Generally speaking while solo'ing, raiding and grouping, as your level increases so will the # of CAs that you use.  This is especially true at level 50 when you get your offensive stance and rampage.  Although a 2Hand becomes better in your early 40s at 50 is when you really can't afford to continue to use DWs. 

[GurgTheBash]

What he said.

 

But learn to calculate your actual DPS, and to legitimately compare weapons before diciding on one, don't just grab the one that has the highest numbers, at the cost of a delay that turns your DPS into "swatting bears with a toilet paper roll", or lose out on a danned good mob-whacker because it's "too damned slow to be good DPS"

 

And remember that CA's cast atthe same speed, and have the same "delay" between them whether you're holding a 15 second delay "mighty world tree of godly wrath" or "the ebuillient lady slipper greatsword" with a 2.0 delay rating....

[xandez]

Yes, but if you have a 1.2s delay wep (and lets say youre even hasted a bit... down to 1.0s delay maybe) Using eg. 2s casting time skills makes you compeletly *lose* 2 hits... so... IF you're button mashing, the slower wep always is better that faster, but if youre not... it doesnt matter that much :smileyvery-happy: And this has been discussed so many times (or debated actually ) already that im just gonna say... Choose whichever wep you like, no matter what it is or does it do MARGINALLY more or less dmg that the other wep. Pick the one YOU love... ++Xan

[GurgTheBash]

LOL xandex.

 

In the "half the man" thread, someone worked out that the difference between a 3.8 second 2H and a pair of 1.2 second duals requires 23 weapon-using CAs per minute to "balance" the number of swings.

But, basically, what we've worked out in that thread is that until about level 45-ish, when the RGF weapons become available, DW delivers a slightly higher DPS than the comperable 2H in the same time period, but the CA advantage tends to rectify this, and even push the advantage over to the 2H side of the scale, while GS imbueds push it back towards the DW side.

 

However, the difference, OUTSIDE weapon-based procs, is so minute that it's really a matter of personal choice...a difference of 6 damage on average per hit on the part of the 2H is enough to "eat the DW proc-per-second advantage", and that much extra damage can be aquired just by using the weapon-based CAs a bit "enthusiastically".

 

 

 

Also, remember that out of 6 CAs that involve a weapon swing that are available to a level 44, only 2 have a 2 second cast time (whirlwind and berserker assault), all the others have a half-second casting time, which works out as a "speed advantage" for BOTH types...just more of one for 2H users.

 

 

In the end though, you, Sabin, and myself are saying the same thing..."until 45 or 50, do whatever feels best to you, the actual difference is so small, it won't really matter in the end...once you hit 45-50 and beyond, switch to 2H, and get hold of one of the "BAWs" (bad arsed weapons) at all costs."

Message Edited by GurgTheBashur on 09-28-2005 02:39 AM

[Sokolov]

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GurgTheBashur wrote:

LOL xandex.

In the "half the man" thread, someone worked out that the difference between a 3.8 second 2H and a pair of 1.2 second duals requires 23 weapon-using CAs per minute to "balance" the number of swings.

But, basically, what we've worked out in that thread is that until about level 45-ish, when the RGF weapons become available, DW delivers a slightly higher DPS than the comperable 2H in the same time period, but the CA advantage tends to rectify this, and even push the advantage over to the 2H side of the scale, while GS imbueds push it back towards the DW side.

---

Not really.  What YOU worked was that you were right and DW is better. The only time in which DW is be better is if all you did was stand there, without haste, and only with auto-attack and no other procs other than imbued Gleaming Strike procs. As soon as you add haste, any CAs or additional procs chances and 2H is substantially better. In other words, if you aren't a bot, 2H is likely to be better for you.