+parry vs Mit

[Pexsus]

Lately there has been a lot of talk about parry and avoidance in general.  For the raid tank this has gotten me wondering.  Looking at parses it seems to me that avoidance in general is less than worthless (I have about 8K when tanking) and while I do parry and riposte against some epic mobs, they simply have such huge hit bonuses that it is a fairly rare occourance. I still dont understand why the prevailing thought of late has been to ditch out of things like the wis line Mit bonus towards Parry.  I understand that diminishing returns eats away at what benefit you get out of mit, but honestly, does a few points in parry make up for it?  I mean honestly, how many of you would bid insane amounts of dkp for an extra 300 mit on an item? what am I missing?

 

For me the holy trinity of tanking has been more mit, more HP and more hate and I guess I have just never seen a parse to show me that avoidance in general or parry specifically should be invited to the party...

[Domiuk]

Your parsers are showing differant to mine then.

 

 

[Bladewind]

You can avoid properly-debuffed mobs almost as well as you can avoid a solo mob of the same level.  You may want to focus on block before parry, though.  Block is uncontested and therefore not dependent on your raid force debuffing properly.  With debuffs, parry helps just as much.

[Max122]

I am down the int line so got the +17 parry there.  Got a few items with it like Chel'Draks ring among others and ofcourse our defensive stance.  With a dirge and unyielding vigilance I get over 450 parry.  I hit almost 9300 avoidance the other night which was over 62% I believe.  I notice the parry a ton not sure on the debuffing but our raid force always gets them in so if that effects the parry more then sure I notice it a ton.

[Bladewind]

The raid mobs have high offensive bonuses that severely reduce parry.  So long as your raid force maintains debuffs that lower slash/crush/pierce on the mob, parry will be efective.  The same goes for all contested avoidance.  Parry is the toughest one to buff, so people focus on it more than defense.

[Furriest]

WIth how the new system works after about 62% mit i believe (about 5600 or so) the deminishing returns hit extremly hard. Like both master temp bufs give maybe .8% mit wich makes the 300 from wis line non important. I used to be buffed for mit and hp, tanked one raid after eof then swaped to straight avoidance.  Now my mit in raids stays around 5600+ and avoidance is 70% at highest but use buckler so most of the times its 68-69% I have noticed a huge difference in survivability since changing to avoidance. And no i didnt sac to much hp im still at 9400 self buffed. I went Sta / Int lines for warroir and i went down the double attack line and the quicker reinforcment and rescue line for guardians. Hope this helps.MelissafordLeader of ~The Fury Council~Nektulos

[Ep]

wow, how do you get avoid that high?i am str/sta but when i want to be avoid, and tanking eof epics i put on tower shieldi have 2wrist+1shield 1%block and sword riposte2%i think my agi might hover around 300(don't really remember mt buffed)and mt buffed(always w/ dirge) i'm at 434def/450parryi'm at 9350self buffed hp, so raid buffed i'd be 13500ish w/ 64% avoid(i think 9300 is the number?) and 22.3%blockw/ my bards i'm at parry cap so i respected out of int line(only have 5points for haste)i'm pretty sure i'll see lots of +def gear soon so i'm not worried about going down agi line to max defi do have m1 defense buff and also m1 defense stance buff.parry/defence items of note aredt bracers w/ +7 parryhoop of war def/parry4cheldrak ring or some parry ring from mmis will take care of my last 5points in parry(is it 455 or 450 for cap?)But wow, how do you get it so high? i mean i'm just really stunned heh.i do have sta+adorns and sta totem and still use musicbox so i guess i could get a total of 35agi trade in 35sta?i could replace band of cause and put a dark chitin ring get +5def, put back on the claymore belt another 5 def... but would all that make up the 6% difference?

[Anvilhead]

Parry Caps at 455 (6.5*lvl)

[Furriest]

Did a character respec and got all agi for the stat bonuses. In raids my agi is always 700-800+ keeping sta 700-800+ all the time as well. I use Vilucedae sword with the 2% ripost, with the proc on vilucedae it gives 12 def cause its pett much up the entire fight so with this u can use some hp gear. Buckler of the Howler is my buckler with the 1% block.  For tower i normally use Qeynos Guard / Vilucidae / Dragon scale. Ichor +power,  Doomrage BP with +stats adorn, Spaulders of the Eternal Sentinel +hp,  Reticulated Dragonscale vambraces +7parry, Vitrified Dragonscale Gauntlets +14agi, Doomrage Greaves +14 sta, Doomrage Sabatons + 14sta, Mark for neck no adorn yet latest update made me change what i was wearing but didnt loose any avoid thankfully, Fitzpiztles Earcog, Earring of the blooodlust handler, Band of darkness +hp, Wurmscale Band +hp, Dragonscale braclet, Amulet of forsworn +1% block. Sta doll and empowered sleeper totem. Thats the setup i use currently, used to use Dark chitin in place of wurmscale, but was way over cap so changed that out for a small hp and big resist boost. Also i assume you are using your parry/avoid buff on a group member to up your pary a bit. You dont need the best equipement to get that high of avoidance. IM just waiting for the uber tank shiz to start droping so i can get 10k+ self buffed hp and stay at 62% self buffed avoid wich is wear im at now :smileyvery-happy:

[Ep]

yea avoid buff is calculated in w/ the parry skills. guess i'll check out some agi stuff and play around w/ it maybe.

[Oshef]

Don't believe the hype.. Mitigation is still king.

[Furriest]

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HollidayStyle wrote:
Don't believe the hype.. Mitigation is still king.

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Considering the fact that once you are around 65% mit that deminishing returns hits hard as [I cannot control my vocabulary] (i.e. using both mit buffs for close to 2k extra mit only adding 0.5-0.8% mit) I would say your wrong :smileywink:

[Oshef]

Say what you will. I don't feel like explaining how you shouldn't pay much attention to the %'s, and 30 mitigation is 30 mitigation in regards to survivabilty.. but, meh.

[Sir_Halbarad]

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HollidayStyle wrote:Say what you will. I don't feel like explaining how you shouldn't pay much attention to the %'s, and 30 mitigation is 30 mitigation in regards to survivabilty.. but, meh.

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Not anymore.30 mitigation isnt 30 mitigation - it depends where you are on the mitigation curve.

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Damage Mitigation and Resistance

- Maximum mitigation/resistance numbers for your current level have been increased from [ Level * 80 ] to [ Level * 150 ].

- Damage mitigated now has diminishing returns, with the point at which the old system and new system meet set at 3675 armor/resist value or (52.5%) for level 70 players.

- The new mitigation cap for any type of damage is 75% which is reached at [Level * 150] armor or resist value.

- The mitigations / resistances for some item bonuses will appear to have dropped.  This was due to a rounding error in their display.  Their actual resistance / mitigation values have not changed in most cases.

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From Update Notes LU 29Another interesting read: Mitigations Return Curve

[tobynser]

With regards to survivability, 30 mitigation is 30 mitigation. I think there were several topics in combat discussion that explained "survivability" depends linearly on mitigation. But could be wrong .. There are other things to take into account as well, such as (skill) debuffs, level of armor etc .. But i think it comes down to that mitigation is at the same footing as avoidance, i.e. if you are switching two armor pieces and the net result is +100 miti/-100 avoid., i would choose the item with the higher mitigation, even more in view of our passive hate generation. However if the net result is +100 miti/-150 avoid, you might want to opt for the armor piece with the higher avoidance. These are just some random number to illustrate my point. This is the view i have of mitigation vs. avoidance, please correct me if im wrong I think mitigation vs. avoidance becomes important when gaining X amount of mitigation is at a loss of a greater proportional amount of avoidance. Something like that atleast ..

[Ep]

Well i was able to play more w/ avoidance w/o changing aa's and some equip in mt group i hit 11000avoidance(67.3%?) but i still could not eek out more, yes i still have 20more def, that is the only way i can see. I did "test" out adding more agi while i was 67avoid every 10agi gives you about .1 after you hit 600 or so , before the agi curve(if there is one, it'd be 580, i guess for max stats?) 10agi would give about .2%. well thats all i can offer for now. Need cheldrak ring, need ring from TA, and i'll test more =p

[PaganSaint]

The mitigation numerical value vs absorbtion percentage returns curve isn't a linear curve at all, its shaped more like an upside down U or a hill. After around 65% mitigation absorbtion its not worth trying nor practical to try to gain anymore mitigation with the current system of having only numerical rather than percentage based increases. Excepting the defense stance. Leaving avoidance as the only other option to increase your survivability. Its like after they first made the change and many warrior tanks were swapping into cloth or leather armor to gain avoidance to increase their tanking ability because with their short term buffs and their MT group buffs they can hit 60% absorbtion wearing cloth or leather, some managed to get their percent even higher. Rather than make it worth it mitigation wise to use plate over cloth or leather again, like before, they took away the option of wearing a lower armor class to increase avoidance.

[aislynn00]

tobynser wrote:

With regards to survivability, 30 mitigation is 30 mitigation. I think there were several topics in combat discussion that explained "survivability" depends linearly on mitigation. But could be wrong ..

You aren't wrong. 

These forums are full of the hype, but I have 1) done the math myself, and 2) parsed our four weekly raids every since EoF came out, so I have been able to draw my own conclusions.

X raw mitigation adds an almost constant bonus to your survivability. 

If you add 100 points of mit to 6000, you gain almost the same improvement in staying power as you would if you had added those 100 points to 5000.  That doesn't meant you get the same improvement in your mitigation percentage, but that is neither here nor there.  Value isn't expressed in numbers; it is expressed in the impact those numbers have.

At any rate, your best bet is still to balance mitigation, HP, and uncontested avoidance.

By uncontested avoidance, I mean anything which adds to your block chance as well as any percentile bonuses to parry, dodge, or riposte. 

Having a percentile bonus to normally contested avoidance skills is, according to my own experiments, uncontested avoidance.  For instance, you will always riposte an average of 2% of all frontal attacks if you add a 2% riposte adornment to your weapon, even vs mobs which normally completely ignore parry/riposte.

Having a +20 bonus to parry, conversely, is still subject to a contested parry roll vs the mob's offensive skills, and vs certain mobs, such as Vilucidae, it still results in absolutely zero chance of parrying.

[Formerly Bbert]

What I know is that when I spec'd into AGI line out of WIS line I got nothing from grief from my healers about how much harder it was to keep me alive.  I am back in the WIS line. However I'm not as well equipped as a lot of the Guards on this board, so I may not be above the curve myself

[Furriest]

Formerly Bbert wrote:

What I know is that when I spec'd into AGI line out of WIS line I got nothing from grief from my healers about how much harder it was to keep me alive.  I am back in the WIS line. However I'm not as well equipped as a lot of the Guards on this board, so I may not be above the curve myself

Agi and wis line both blow hardcore. Go sta and int, or if you cant stand in raids with a buckler go str and int. If your any were near decent geared, meaning at least relic, then the 300 somthing mit from wis line will give you maybe .5% mit wich is meaningless.

[Super Du]

hehe i have ok gear, sure it's not best but i manage 9.2hp 5.6mit and 61.6avoid self buffed... lol i'm on a pvp server so evil classes only... still... how the hell do u get 70% avoid?  rofl... i mean highest i've ever gotten mine was at 66.9%  lol... i'm fully speced for avoidance lol.  is there a q class that gives such massive avoid boost or you just hyperinflating your numbers to get larger weiners?

but i'm sooooooo rolling buckler when 32 comes out... OHH YEA BABY!  buckler Power Activate!

[Furriest]

Super Du wrote:

hehe i have ok gear, sure it's not best but i manage 9.2hp 5.6mit and 61.6avoid self buffed... lol i'm on a pvp server so evil classes only... still... how the hell do u get 70% avoid?  rofl... i mean highest i've ever gotten mine was at 66.9%  lol... i'm fully speced for avoidance lol.  is there a q class that gives such massive avoid boost or you just hyperinflating your numbers to get larger weiners?

but i'm sooooooo rolling buckler when 32 comes out... OHH YEA BABY!  buckler Power Activate!

The group i always had the got me the 70% was Guard / Warden / Defiler / Templar / Dirge / Coercer. You also got to look at your gear, agi, adorments ect...

[Woruud]

I am ST of my guild and convinced the MT to switch to the STR / INT line like I have since a little after EoF came out, all of our healers agree that we are both much easier to heal.  Given that both of us ar top 10 in HP and go almost 6k mit in MT grp w/o the wis line boost, and now with the INT line and some +block items we have 65% + avoidance.  I am going to get the 2% riposte adorn for my sword (Silver Sword of Rage) until I get a Vorpal or Vilucidea's sword. As for EoF guardian AA's I went with slaughtering and block, and put 3 in rescue and 5 in reinforcement.

[Aristigon]

+parry caps at 450 right?

[salle]

I was under the impression that the "cap" is set by the level of the mob you're fighting ag ainst.  i.e. lvl 70 mob would be 420, a lvl 75 would be 45 0, a lvl 80 would be 480, a lvl 100 would be 600 .  This is sorta why the mit/avoidance % is almost pointless, it only shows your % against lvl 70 mobs. and what you want to know is the % against w hatever level your target is.  so this would make the 52.5% cap for mit (where it starts to give deminishing r eturns) against lvl 75 mobs be at 5900. but it will continue to aid you up to 11 250 mit where the "hard cap" is at. And after all that [Removed for Content] math, all I can say is if you're 6k+ mit raidbuffed, getting closer to 450 in parry is probably a better idea than getting 300 more mit.

[Noo]

I am at 70% Avoidance and 65% Mitigation in my favorite MT Group. I am using STR and AGI line, not INT for parry, cause with a dirge in my group i am at parry cap of 455 and i am at the def cap of 455 solobuffed. I am thinking about to drop AGI line again for STA or WIS after i got my third Guardian Set Item cause of the +10 Def effect i will be at 455 Def without the boost of the AGI line. So i can use the AA Points for more agro. On the other Hand, i starting to like the AGI Endability

Noogi

[Legiax]

I love my avoidance, i've not once considered going away from avoidance, and my mitigation is still reaching 60%+ in a good group build.