Avoidance V Mitigation

DarkMirrax · 03-18-2006, 12:21 AM

Now why lock the original post , it had relevent interesting points being made in it ? talk about covering your tracks ..

The discussion was about why guardians can get 80 % + avoidance (which is something even us brawlers cant get) with there AA feat but we had the Mit line removed from our AA's ?

Nobody was asking for a nurf (well maybe gaige was :smileyvery-happy SMILEY

i just want to know if you guards would swap your mit for our avoidance ?

Echgar · 03-18-2006, 12:26 AM

DarkMirrax wrote:
Now why lock the original post , it had relevent interesting points being made in it ? talk about covering your tracks ..

I thought I pretty clearly stated the thread was being closed at the request of the original poster. /shrugYou are welcome to start your own discussion thread provided you adhere to the Forum Rules of Conduct. :smileyhappy:

DarkMirrax · 03-18-2006, 12:32 AM

adhering is my middle name :smileyvery-happy: or was it my last name either way !! [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] echgar your fast :smileywink:

ReviloTX · 03-18-2006, 12:48 AM

I don't personally have experience with the stamina line, because on the surface it appears useless. But I will say that according to his original post something doesn't seem right. Either the description of the AA is wrong, or it is bugged. If it's bugged I'm sure it will get fixed, if it's wrong I'm sure it will get adjusted (I"m pretty sure it's bugged if in fact he was achieving 84% avoidance).

Using the stamina line a guard should get an additional 8% block with his buckler. This will come out roughly to the same as using a nice tower shield, possibly even less. Read the other post where someone who maxed out the stamina line compared his persona window. The stats are right where they should be. If it's giving some additional benefit over what the stats are showing then it's broke and I'm sure it will be fixed.

Now go back to the brawler forums and talk about your LEE7 DPS.

Meinen · 03-18-2006, 12:52 AM

I had it locked cause my information wasn't complete. i couldn't provide answers and was getting a lot of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] from other guardians about getting us nerfed, that wasn't my intention. my intention was to show that having a buckler, thats right a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing buckler could make a difference in soloing. you say you weren't asking for us to get nerfed, but go back and look in that thread and thats exactly what people were asking to happen.

For so long (and still possible), brawlers and some casters could do things in this game that were just incredible, now that guardians get something that is cool and so far only useful when soloing, everyone [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]es about it? let us have our cake for once. brawlers still out dps us, still steal aggro from us, still have FD and 100% parry and still tank just fine. I have never [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed once about brawlers or conjurors being able to do what they do, but maybe i will. I have both toons, i will compile the data more thoroughly and post up some screenshots so i can get them nerfed too.

Oh i know, you are going to say we also get the same 100% avoidance through our AGI line, but that lasts for a whole 12 sec. GASP! brawlers last 30-45 sec?

Message Edited by kiked on 03-17-200612:35 PM

Sirlutt · 03-18-2006, 01:28 AM

DarkMirrax wrote:
Now why lock the original post , it had relevent interesting points being made in it ? talk about covering your tracks ..

The discussion was about why guardians can get 80 % + avoidance (which is something even us brawlers cant get) with there AA feat but we had the Mit line removed from our AA's ?

Nobody was asking for a nurf (well maybe gaige was :smileyvery-happy i just want to know if you guards would swap your mit for our avoidance ?

to answer one of your questions .. every attack you avoid/parry/block is an attack you 100% mitigated. In my eyes avoidance > mitigation, but only if you've got mitigation to back up for the times when you DO get hit.Why arent you posting in the thread where the guy show that his avoidance actually GOES DOWN with the STA line ?.. he provided alot more data such as the before and after numbers for hitmain stats.. go whine in that thread.

Sirlutt · 03-18-2006, 01:29 AM

kiked wrote:
I had it locked cause my information wasn't complete. i couldn't provide answers and was getting a lot of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] from other guardians about getting us nerfed, that wasn't my intention. my intention was to show that having a buckler, thats right a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing buckler could make a difference in soloing. you say you weren't asking for us to get nerfed, but go back and look in that thread and thats exactly what people were asking to happen.

For so long (and still possible), brawlers and some casters could do things in this game that were just incredible, now that guardians get something that is cool and so far only useful when soloing, everyone [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]es about it? let us have our cake for once. brawlers still out dps us, still steal aggro from us, still have FD and 100% parry and still tank just fine. I have never [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed once about brawlers or conjurors being able to do what they do, but maybe i will. I have both toons, i will compile the data more thoroughly and post up some screenshots so i can get them nerfed too.

i'd like to see some REAL data on your 84% avoidance .. a screen shot.. a before and after with 2 diff sheilds equiped.

Meinen · 03-18-2006, 01:32 AM

Sirlutt wrote:

i'd like to see some REAL data on your 84% avoidance .. a screen shot.. a before and after with 2 diff sheilds equiped.

so i can make the same mistake twice? are you nuts? lol pm me your email and i will, i have already taken the screenshots earlier today. lol

Corasik · 03-18-2006, 03:58 AM

kiked wrote:
.......... brawlers still out dps us, still steal aggro from us, still have FD and 100% parry and still tank just fine. I have never [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed once about brawlers or conjurors being able to do what they do, but maybe i will. I have both toons, i will compile the data more thoroughly and post up some screenshots so i can get them nerfed too.

Oh i know, you are going to say we also get the same 100% avoidance through our AGI line, but that lasts for a whole 12 sec. GASP! brawlers last 30-45 sec?
Message Edited by kiked on 03-17-200612:35 PM

Monks not Brawlers.

Bruisers dont get Tsunami, therefore no 100% parry at all, FD is fine, but its alot harder to tank Halls of Fate as a brawler than as a plate tank. Not impossible but much bigger risk of being 1 rounded. Brawlers are fairly well rounded, but they certainly arnt a god class for all situations, and there are many times a group would be smoother with a plate tank.

I normally sit around 70% avoidance in an averagely balance group, using my defensive stance, with mitigation ranging from 30-50% depending on the group, so I too would feel that a guardian with 80%+ mitigation, and 84% avoidance certainly appears unbalance from a tanking point of view, even more so if thats possible solo.

Meinen · 03-18-2006, 04:27 AM

Corasik wrote:
kiked wrote:
.......... brawlers still out dps us, still steal aggro from us, still have FD and 100% parry and still tank just fine. I have never [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed once about brawlers or conjurors being able to do what they do, but maybe i will. I have both toons, i will compile the data more thoroughly and post up some screenshots so i can get them nerfed too.

Oh i know, you are going to say we also get the same 100% avoidance through our AGI line, but that lasts for a whole 12 sec. GASP! brawlers last 30-45 sec?
Message Edited by kiked on 03-17-200612:35 PM
Monks not Brawlers.
Bruisers dont get Tsunami, therefore no 100% parry at all, FD is fine, but its alot harder to tank Halls of Fate as a brawler than as a plate tank. Not impossible but much bigger risk of being 1 rounded. Brawlers are fairly well rounded, but they certainly arnt a god class for all situations, and there are many times a group would be smoother with a plate tank.
I normally sit around 70% avoidance in an averagely balance group, using my defensive stance, with mitigation ranging from 30-50% depending on the group, so I too would feel that a guardian with 80%+ mitigation, and 84% avoidance certainly appears unbalance from a tanking point of view, even more so if thats possible solo.

but we aren't getting 80+ mit. if we were, than yeah, it would be unbalanced. mit is normal or even a little less going with a buckler.

Gungo · 03-18-2006, 04:54 AM

um since when did shields types effect mitgation?

to tell the truth i think the current implementation of AA's was a near complete failure.

Lines of aa's that dont make sense. requiring obscene conditions for use. and total lack of forethought on any form of future upgrades.

Enchanters- skills mostly requiring melee to use

cruasder skills that onyl require horses (outdoor only) or symbols in secondary

brawler skils that required unarmed combat (then further requiring updates so unarmed combat can hit mobs)( only trully benefiting monks)

guardian skills that on the surface only require a buckler and if it worked correctly would equal the same avoid% as a tower, but which is so obviously bugged that it actualyl increase your overall avoid % instead of the buckler %.

finally sorry to break the news flash to ya's but brawlers ar eno longer overpower compared to guards. In fact i havent seen a brawler soloing heroics in KoS at all. Guards have gotten significant upgrades including dps whereas brawlers especially bruisers have had thier dps nerfed (offensive stance on bruisers only was nerfed by proc changes, actual % listed and damage of proc listed)

If SoE would remove AA's entirely then i would say things are balanced at the moment(minus the guard initial starter aa which i think was a smart move), but that wont happen. So there needs to be significant changes in many many of the AA's and trees for many classes.

Message Edited by Gungo on 03-17-200604:17 PM

RyanTSi · 03-18-2006, 05:59 AM

kiked wrote:

Oh i know, you are going to say we also get the same 100% avoidance through our AGI line, but that lasts for a whole 12 sec. GASP! brawlers last 30-45 sec?

tsunami as it is right now and as it has always been lasts for 12 seconds.......after the next LU only the master version will be 12 seconds and the adept 3 will be 10 seconds, since the mobs that drop that master are all grey now its gonna be pretty hard to get so the majority of the monks will have a 10 second tsunami.....and since its a t6 spell lots of t7 mob CAs break through it due to level difference or something.

Gaige · 03-18-2006, 09:31 PM

kiked wrote:
Oh i know, you are going to say we also get the same 100% avoidance through our AGI line, but that lasts for a whole 12 sec. GASP! brawlers last 30-45 sec?

Ours lasts 12 seconds with a 2 min recast and it isn't even 100% avoidance anymore as a lot of mob CAs go right through it, like vanquishing blow.

kiked wrote:
but we aren't getting 80+ mit. if we were, than yeah, it would be unbalanced. mit is normal or even a little less going with a buckler.

Shields do not affect mitigation, only avoidance.

Message Edited by Gaige on 03-18-200608:33 AM

Meinen · 03-18-2006, 10:33 PM

Gaige wrote:
kiked wrote:
Oh i know, you are going to say we also get the same 100% avoidance through our AGI line, but that lasts for a whole 12 sec. GASP! brawlers last 30-45 sec?
Ours lasts 12 seconds with a 2 min recast and it isn't even 100% avoidance anymore as a lot of mob CAs go right through it, like vanquishing blow.
kiked wrote:
but we aren't getting 80+ mit. if we were, than yeah, it would be unbalanced. mit is normal or even a little less going with a buckler.
Shields do not affect mitigation, only avoidance.
Message Edited by Gaige on 03-18-200608:33 AM

I understand that, the person i was responding to said we get 80%+ mit and thats not the case. as far as the 100% parry goes in our AP's, will probably be the same way with mobs hitting us with their CA's away. But i can't confirm that till i go down the AGI line and i may not since its really not that attractive to me.

03-18-2006, 12:21 AM	#1
DarkMirrax Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,238	Now why lock the original post , it had relevent interesting points being made in it ? talk about covering your tracks .. The discussion was about why guardians can get 80 % + avoidance (which is something even us brawlers cant get) with there AA feat but we had the Mit line removed from our AA's ? Nobody was asking for a nurf (well maybe gaige was :smileyvery-happy i just want to know if you guards would swap your mit for our avoidance ? __________________ Q - Named and epics get + to hit which makes avoidance tanking suck. A- Yes they do, and yes it does =========================== Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard Game Designer, EverQuest II ... Whats Amazing Reflexes ?? ....... ===========================

03-18-2006, 12:26 AM	#2
Echgar Forum Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,004	DarkMirrax wrote: Now why lock the original post , it had relevent interesting points being made in it ? talk about covering your tracks .. I thought I pretty clearly stated the thread was being closed at the request of the original poster. /shrugYou are welcome to start your own discussion thread provided you adhere to the Forum Rules of Conduct. :smileyhappy: __________________ \|\| Forum Rules \|\| TRACKERS: Community \|\| Tech \|\| Dev \|\|

03-18-2006, 12:32 AM	#3
DarkMirrax Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,238	adhering is my middle name :smileyvery-happy: or was it my last name either way !! [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] echgar your fast :smileywink: __________________ Q - Named and epics get + to hit which makes avoidance tanking suck. A- Yes they do, and yes it does =========================== Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard Game Designer, EverQuest II ... Whats Amazing Reflexes ?? ....... ===========================

03-18-2006, 01:28 AM	#6
Sirlutt Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,149	DarkMirrax wrote: Now why lock the original post , it had relevent interesting points being made in it ? talk about covering your tracks .. The discussion was about why guardians can get 80 % + avoidance (which is something even us brawlers cant get) with there AA feat but we had the Mit line removed from our AA's ? Nobody was asking for a nurf (well maybe gaige was :smileyvery-happy i just want to know if you guards would swap your mit for our avoidance ? to answer one of your questions .. every attack you avoid/parry/block is an attack you 100% mitigated. In my eyes avoidance > mitigation, but only if you've got mitigation to back up for the times when you DO get hit.Why arent you posting in the thread where the guy show that his avoidance actually GOES DOWN with the STA line ?.. he provided alot more data such as the before and after numbers for hitmain stats.. go whine in that thread. __________________ I heart DE Broads

03-18-2006, 01:29 AM	#7
Sirlutt Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,149	kiked wrote: I had it locked cause my information wasn't complete. i couldn't provide answers and was getting a lot of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] from other guardians about getting us nerfed, that wasn't my intention. my intention was to show that having a buckler, thats right a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing buckler could make a difference in soloing. you say you weren't asking for us to get nerfed, but go back and look in that thread and thats exactly what people were asking to happen. For so long (and still possible), brawlers and some casters could do things in this game that were just incredible, now that guardians get something that is cool and so far only useful when soloing, everyone [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]es about it? let us have our cake for once. brawlers still out dps us, still steal aggro from us, still have FD and 100% parry and still tank just fine. I have never [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed once about brawlers or conjurors being able to do what they do, but maybe i will. I have both toons, i will compile the data more thoroughly and post up some screenshots so i can get them nerfed too. i'd like to see some REAL data on your 84% avoidance .. a screen shot.. a before and after with 2 diff sheilds equiped. __________________ I heart DE Broads

03-18-2006, 12:48 AM	#4
ReviloTX Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 234	I don't personally have experience with the stamina line, because on the surface it appears useless. But I will say that according to his original post something doesn't seem right. Either the description of the AA is wrong, or it is bugged. If it's bugged I'm sure it will get fixed, if it's wrong I'm sure it will get adjusted (I"m pretty sure it's bugged if in fact he was achieving 84% avoidance). Using the stamina line a guard should get an additional 8% block with his buckler. This will come out roughly to the same as using a nice tower shield, possibly even less. Read the other post where someone who maxed out the stamina line compared his persona window. The stats are right where they should be. If it's giving some additional benefit over what the stats are showing then it's broke and I'm sure it will be fixed. Now go back to the brawler forums and talk about your LEE7 DPS.

03-18-2006, 12:52 AM	#5
Meinen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 342	I had it locked cause my information wasn't complete. i couldn't provide answers and was getting a lot of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] from other guardians about getting us nerfed, that wasn't my intention. my intention was to show that having a buckler, thats right a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing buckler could make a difference in soloing. you say you weren't asking for us to get nerfed, but go back and look in that thread and thats exactly what people were asking to happen. For so long (and still possible), brawlers and some casters could do things in this game that were just incredible, now that guardians get something that is cool and so far only useful when soloing, everyone [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]es about it? let us have our cake for once. brawlers still out dps us, still steal aggro from us, still have FD and 100% parry and still tank just fine. I have never [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed once about brawlers or conjurors being able to do what they do, but maybe i will. I have both toons, i will compile the data more thoroughly and post up some screenshots so i can get them nerfed too. Oh i know, you are going to say we also get the same 100% avoidance through our AGI line, but that lasts for a whole 12 sec. GASP! brawlers last 30-45 sec? Message Edited by kiked on 03-17-200612:35 PM

03-18-2006, 01:32 AM	#8
Meinen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 342	Sirlutt wrote: i'd like to see some REAL data on your 84% avoidance .. a screen shot.. a before and after with 2 diff sheilds equiped. so i can make the same mistake twice? are you nuts? lol pm me your email and i will, i have already taken the screenshots earlier today. lol

03-18-2006, 03:58 AM	#9
Corasik Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 91	kiked wrote: .......... brawlers still out dps us, still steal aggro from us, still have FD and 100% parry and still tank just fine. I have never [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed once about brawlers or conjurors being able to do what they do, but maybe i will. I have both toons, i will compile the data more thoroughly and post up some screenshots so i can get them nerfed too. Oh i know, you are going to say we also get the same 100% avoidance through our AGI line, but that lasts for a whole 12 sec. GASP! brawlers last 30-45 sec? Message Edited by kiked on 03-17-200612:35 PM Monks not Brawlers. Bruisers dont get Tsunami, therefore no 100% parry at all, FD is fine, but its alot harder to tank Halls of Fate as a brawler than as a plate tank. Not impossible but much bigger risk of being 1 rounded. Brawlers are fairly well rounded, but they certainly arnt a god class for all situations, and there are many times a group would be smoother with a plate tank. I normally sit around 70% avoidance in an averagely balance group, using my defensive stance, with mitigation ranging from 30-50% depending on the group, so I too would feel that a guardian with 80%+ mitigation, and 84% avoidance certainly appears unbalance from a tanking point of view, even more so if thats possible solo.

03-18-2006, 04:27 AM	#10
Meinen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 342	Corasik wrote: kiked wrote: .......... brawlers still out dps us, still steal aggro from us, still have FD and 100% parry and still tank just fine. I have never [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ed once about brawlers or conjurors being able to do what they do, but maybe i will. I have both toons, i will compile the data more thoroughly and post up some screenshots so i can get them nerfed too. Oh i know, you are going to say we also get the same 100% avoidance through our AGI line, but that lasts for a whole 12 sec. GASP! brawlers last 30-45 sec? Message Edited by kiked on 03-17-200612:35 PM Monks not Brawlers. Bruisers dont get Tsunami, therefore no 100% parry at all, FD is fine, but its alot harder to tank Halls of Fate as a brawler than as a plate tank. Not impossible but much bigger risk of being 1 rounded. Brawlers are fairly well rounded, but they certainly arnt a god class for all situations, and there are many times a group would be smoother with a plate tank. I normally sit around 70% avoidance in an averagely balance group, using my defensive stance, with mitigation ranging from 30-50% depending on the group, so I too would feel that a guardian with 80%+ mitigation, and 84% avoidance certainly appears unbalance from a tanking point of view, even more so if thats possible solo. but we aren't getting 80+ mit. if we were, than yeah, it would be unbalanced. mit is normal or even a little less going with a buckler.

03-18-2006, 04:54 AM	#11
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	um since when did shields types effect mitgation? to tell the truth i think the current implementation of AA's was a near complete failure. Lines of aa's that dont make sense. requiring obscene conditions for use. and total lack of forethought on any form of future upgrades. Enchanters- skills mostly requiring melee to use cruasder skills that onyl require horses (outdoor only) or symbols in secondary brawler skils that required unarmed combat (then further requiring updates so unarmed combat can hit mobs)( only trully benefiting monks) guardian skills that on the surface only require a buckler and if it worked correctly would equal the same avoid% as a tower, but which is so obviously bugged that it actualyl increase your overall avoid % instead of the buckler %. finally sorry to break the news flash to ya's but brawlers ar eno longer overpower compared to guards. In fact i havent seen a brawler soloing heroics in KoS at all. Guards have gotten significant upgrades including dps whereas brawlers especially bruisers have had thier dps nerfed (offensive stance on bruisers only was nerfed by proc changes, actual % listed and damage of proc listed) If SoE would remove AA's entirely then i would say things are balanced at the moment(minus the guard initial starter aa which i think was a smart move), but that wont happen. So there needs to be significant changes in many many of the AA's and trees for many classes. Message Edited by Gungo on 03-17-200604:17 PM

03-18-2006, 05:59 AM	#12
RyanTSi Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 207	kiked wrote: Oh i know, you are going to say we also get the same 100% avoidance through our AGI line, but that lasts for a whole 12 sec. GASP! brawlers last 30-45 sec? tsunami as it is right now and as it has always been lasts for 12 seconds.......after the next LU only the master version will be 12 seconds and the adept 3 will be 10 seconds, since the mobs that drop that master are all grey now its gonna be pretty hard to get so the majority of the monks will have a 10 second tsunami.....and since its a t6 spell lots of t7 mob CAs break through it due to level difference or something. __________________

03-18-2006, 09:31 PM	#13
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	kiked wrote: Oh i know, you are going to say we also get the same 100% avoidance through our AGI line, but that lasts for a whole 12 sec. GASP! brawlers last 30-45 sec? Ours lasts 12 seconds with a 2 min recast and it isn't even 100% avoidance anymore as a lot of mob CAs go right through it, like vanquishing blow. kiked wrote: but we aren't getting 80+ mit. if we were, than yeah, it would be unbalanced. mit is normal or even a little less going with a buckler. Shields do not affect mitigation, only avoidance. Message Edited by Gaige on 03-18-200608:33 AM __________________

03-18-2006, 10:33 PM	#14
Meinen Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 342	Gaige wrote: kiked wrote: Oh i know, you are going to say we also get the same 100% avoidance through our AGI line, but that lasts for a whole 12 sec. GASP! brawlers last 30-45 sec? Ours lasts 12 seconds with a 2 min recast and it isn't even 100% avoidance anymore as a lot of mob CAs go right through it, like vanquishing blow. kiked wrote: but we aren't getting 80+ mit. if we were, than yeah, it would be unbalanced. mit is normal or even a little less going with a buckler. Shields do not affect mitigation, only avoidance. Message Edited by Gaige on 03-18-200608:33 AM I understand that, the person i was responding to said we get 80%+ mit and thats not the case. as far as the 100% parry goes in our AP's, will probably be the same way with mobs hitting us with their CA's away. But i can't confirm that till i go down the AGI line and i may not since its really not that attractive to me.