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03-12-2006, 02:39 AM
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#1 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 29
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I posted on this on the Ranger boards but I also want to get the opinions of some Tanks on this: Why is it that every exp group I join I have to send the MT the same message : "Soandso, can you please turn the mobs' back to the group? dont wanna aggro adds trying to get position, and range, behind"? (im a 43 ranger) It baffles me how most tanks dont seem to get it. Why risk the group when simply stepping through the mob and turning around can save a whole lot of trouble. I often have to explain how all my dps is range based and rear/flanking attacks. Some tanks will say "OK..will do", and they do it for about 5 - 6 fights then it's back to just running up to the mob and flailing away. I just stand there and fling arrows from the front, getting parried all over the place. I do make all efforts to flank em when I cant get behind but that takes away all the ranged CAs when in a tight dungeon tunnel. I've seen groups get adds alot and wipe when the assassin, or other ranger unknowingly steps back into aggro range of another mob or agrros a roamer. It usually takes me repeating the request in group, for the tank to understand. What is it? Do tanks not play scouts ever? Why is turning a mob not as simple matter of common sense? Im lvl 43 and I have yet to group with a tank in CT or RE or wherever that positioned the mobs before I had to say something. Do anybody else have experiences like this? This is not a selfish request of a ranger, it's good strategy for the benefit of whatever group you're in. I mean, why would you NOT want to maximize your dps output. Im sure assassins and all scouts will agree. I know there are lots of tanks that turn the mobs but it has been my experience that most that i've grouped with, dont. What are your thoughts on this?? |
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03-12-2006, 03:01 AM
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#2 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 218
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Heck even I do this...
Still, for us newbies a good reminder. |
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03-12-2006, 04:44 AM
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#3 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,507
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Depends on the zone, sometimes its more effecient for lazy autofollow dps to run to the back. In general you should learn to play your own class, and play it well.. and play with others who know their class. Don't post stupid messages telling others how to play. If you are so good at tanking, make one.
Message Edited by TunaBoo on 03-11-200605:46 PM |
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03-12-2006, 05:59 AM
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#4 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 12
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Hate to say tuna is right, some zones when speed pulling for grinds its better for the melees to ajust to us and us not them. I would think any good tank would know the rule of thumb to turn the mob but it doesnt apply to all grind zones... Also on another note dps class's also need to be more awar of there suroundings to not agro other stuff, the extra dps doesn't help when your always pulling adds just to use a abilties. So guess it works both ways..... Message Edited by Methose Darkbringer on 03-11-200605:31 PM
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Krohm 70 Guardian Blackburrow Retired for now |
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03-12-2006, 06:20 AM
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#5 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,507
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"Hate to say tuna is right"Why does everyone hate to say it, I usually am right.. I am just a jerk. ;p
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03-12-2006, 06:49 AM
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#6 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 29
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?? Thats the dumbest thing i ever heard. Grind group or not, why would'nt you want to get the mob dead the fastest? Isnt that the purpose of the grind? We're talking about a 2 second move here. This doesnt involved a massive effort on anybodys part, (scout or tank). It's about efficiency and keeping the risk level down. It's not a lazy scout, it's a smart scout that wont risk aggroing adds. No good scout is gonna move into aggro range if he sees mobs near, so he will wait, or take what he can. I mean come on..what effort does it take to get behind a mob? NONE. This isnt about that, it's about getting the most out of your group. Ask your healer if they like healing the assassin while tryin to heal you cuz the assassin agrroed 3 adds unecessarily. I dont even care if it's blue or green trash mobs. It's the tanks that do this in areas with yellow and orange ^+ mobs that i'm talking about. This is not a knock on anybody, so please dont take offense thinking im tryin to tell you how to play your class. You play it how you want to play it. This was meant to simply get tanks opinions on why a lot of tanks do this.
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03-12-2006, 07:19 AM
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#7 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,039
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This is my experiances as a ranger, is that ALOT of tanks out there still do not turn mobs around. Hell, the last tank I was with pushed mobs into corners with there backs facing the wall pulling adds while tanking, pulling and standing at the door expecting everyone to go through.. Lets just say, I dont think I will group with that tank agian.Anyways, the point I am trying to get at. Is that even though everyone thinks they are good, listen to your fellow ranger when we want our mobs turned
 . Im not saying that every tank out there is bad, great etc everyone plays the game diffrently. I dont expect a tank to be perfect hold agro all the time always have a group of mobs perfectly aligned for me, giving me gold, all there inventory, there life, there souls. (where was I) - ah yes.Just do your best not to force other people into the unknown, after all we are people who are not strong enough to wear plate, people that wear dresses with pointy hats, people that spend there life with the animals and roll around in the dirt. You tanks out there are big blocks of people capable of taking a uzi to the chest. I/we crumple when the hobo pokes us with the stick.Note to self - dont post when you have been awake for 20 hours straight(No its not cause of EQ)
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RIP Oakleaf 1949-2006 |
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03-12-2006, 10:04 AM
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#8 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 27
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Im not a guardian, but I play a zerker and here's my response to the original post. Given, most tanks should flip mobs, for the dps and for obvious reasons. If it doesnt get done Its not always the tanks fault. When your tanking you have to consider many factors, the agro range of mobs, consistancy of pulling and most of all the people you group with and their personal skills and trends. A lot of people have zero attention to detail and by getting behind mobs or running around blindly agro tons of stuff, thats just part of the problem. For example, tank pulls mob to wall so dps can get position and they pay no attention agro other things, the tank then has to move to get agro of the new mobs because when hes backed up or mob infront its a pain to get targets. Every grp is differant, until you learn how some people play and how certain grps and zones work for others players in grp keep in mind that it goes both ways. Sure, you want mobs a certain way for it to be easier for you but take into consideration that it may be where it makes the tanks job easier, and no offense, we keep the mobs off you so I would say death vs. a lil added dps is a fair trade. Madroc 68 Zerker of Nektulos
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03-12-2006, 12:47 PM
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#9 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 318
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mob>group is not as good as tank>mob>group Presenting the back of your target to your group is always the best thing. Even melee classes that don't benefit for damage from having the back get a benefit from not having to suffer repost damage. It also allows the group to see in all directions for possible adds. Also the tank can see mobs that break agro with them easier and be better able to respond to those changes before they have any serious impact on the group.
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03-12-2006, 07:27 PM
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#10 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 528
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/agree, plus the healer can quickly tell if another group member is getting hit without having to pick it out of the battle-spam. Some other tanks I know have a habit of just running up to the next enemy and start hacking away, expecting 5 other players to reposition, which many times leads to trouble. If we had to be rooted/snared to do our job, I could almost see this as a reasonable compromise. But we are fully mobile now, so only in rare cases can I see electing not to pass through and turn the mob/mobs. The old eq1 folklore was that a mob's AC was always lower from the back, so the real damage-dealers were better off behind it. I never parsed it for accuracy but it does make sense.
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03-12-2006, 08:16 PM
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#11 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 56
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If your so close to adds that if only by moving behind the mob you will agro them, then your group is too close and will most likely add them anyways... You need to pull mobs back from their spawn points, not fight them beside an other static spawn sitting right there...but its all situational. When i tank, I can turn the mob I agree, and I do it most the time anyways, (not just for the scouts, also for other melee to avoid riposte dam, and also when mobs have frontal AEs.) but I gana say, that its just as easy for you to go behind, caus to be frank, when the s-hit hit the fan, it get busy for a tank to control agro and adds, and I know for you, as a ranger, dont have much else to do than assist me and burn the mob down,,,so trow your tank a bone already and move arround a bit would ya.. And in a multi-mobs fight, I will most definetly turn all the mobs, once again not just for the scouts that are perma rooted and cant move :smileytongue: but because I dont want the mobs to hit me in the back. Later
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03-13-2006, 04:46 AM
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#12 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 234
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In general, I think it's a good idea for the tank to turn the mobs. I think there are situations where we don't though. Let me give some examples. I two box, and my healer is usually on autofollow. When he's the only healer in the group and we are fighting yellows or above I need him to be standing still when I pull (so he can cast), so in this case I often I won't turn the mobs. I do, however, try to leave enough room for the DPS to move in behind the mob without having to worry about aggroing adds. This is a fairly unique situation though, as it involves the tank two boxing a healer. Second situation where I often won't bother to turn the mobs is if I get stunned on the pull. Most of the time, they dps moves in behind him mashing their high damage attacks from the start before the stun gets cured/wears off. Obviously at this point I'm not going to bother moving the mob, since they are already behind it. Third situation where I often won't turn the mobs is when I'm pulling large groups of mobs, like 4-5 mobs in a heroic group. No matter what I do, 95% of the time the mobs end up surrounding me anyways. In this situation I expect the DPS to move around behind the mobs as I target them. I do try to target them in order though, so they aren't having to jump from one side and back to the other. |
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03-13-2006, 08:34 AM
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#13 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Crushbone
Posts: 5,378
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depends to alot of mobs in KOS are brawlers so turning them around wont do any improvement in dps. But yes its still good practice to turn the mob.
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03-13-2006, 08:46 AM
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#14 |
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 11
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Yes its a good idea.. I turn the mobs on a regular basis, running forward, pegging w/ arrow But i will also say that if the ranger = just another bit of dps in the grp ie have wizzy/warlock/necro etc... if the mob isnt that serious and is going to fall down fast I can and will be lazy... peg taunt damage taunt.... look at tv, look back taunt damage, look at tv... If the ranger wants to grab an add and blame it on the tank then its just another case of not wanting to take responcibility for thier own actions... why didnt that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] ranger look before he leaped? who knows but if you have an ok or better tank the add will be pulled off you and now have a bunch more targets to shoot at, and hopefully you have a good healer  this is an old argument... its the same one that the mezzers have vs. aoe damage... just because a mob is orange doesnt mean its hard for the grp... just means it will resist more, and a follow up question.... do you rangers really need to move back that far from the mob? or is that just for effect?
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03-13-2006, 08:46 PM
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#15 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 45
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I always turn the Mobs, it is always better if your DPS doesn't have to reposition them selves to attack, that is precious time that they could be killing. So I agree with the fact that mobs need to be turned, I don't agree with coming to a board and telling an entire Group how to play their class. It should be assumed that if someone is playing a class over 40 that they probably know how to play it. That doesn't always count on the SE servers, but is the general rule of thumb. My philosophy is if a group isnt' working out then find a different group. Since I Dual box the healer and the tank I am usually pretty responsive when people make a suggestion, and I expect the same from others to make sure that the group works better as a whole. I also always take the pull to here approach. Then I park my healer and tell everyone in the group to stay within group heal range just in case. It behooves me to turn the mob then so that everyone stays in range and people don't get caught in the directional AOE's as well. my 2cp
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03-13-2006, 09:00 PM
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#16 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,039
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I personally only grab adds when its on the healer and the tank isent noticing it easier with a wounded ranger in defensive than a cleric getting interupted etc. Other than that there is no reason to grab adds.I had fun teaching 3 tanks how to turn mobs last weekend (NOT), please, I am BEGGING all of the tank community teach ALL your friends how to turn mobs and to always do it. I am personally finding some of the ignorance I see in tanks abit rediculus. And I realize that every class has its morons, but its mistakes that can be corrected with alittle help and practice.
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RIP Oakleaf 1949-2006 |
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03-13-2006, 10:37 PM
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#17 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 18
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then the designers need to spend a lot more time developing the models for mob's backsides since that is all a majority of players need to see.i think its a poor implementation of game combat that more or less makes it that desirable to have an entire group or raid minus one swinging away at the mob's booty.
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03-13-2006, 11:20 PM
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#18 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,222
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The first time I got stunned and smashed down for huge damage while the mob hit my back becasue I was 'running through the encounter' I decided all the dps could move behind. I usually try and pull the group or mob through the group so they have easy access to their back but in the end, if I'm the tank, my back is dangerous territory for mobs to be and I will not give it to them to make your life easier. Your the one that needs to be behind so get behind.
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The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. |
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03-14-2006, 12:19 AM
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#19 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 46
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yes this is a good practice i must agree - on the xp grind i usually do this. when i first started positioning mobs i would get our swash and ranger to make a gap and i would pull the mob(s) through that gap and park the mob(s) backside right in front of them. that works for starters but once u start to do this it becomes very second nature and your group tactics can evolve further. of course like many have stated this is situational.
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Kisero Koolbrew 80 Guardian Horse Thieves Co-Leader |
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03-14-2006, 01:42 AM
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#20 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,222
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I usually pull through or to the side of the group. I like to the sides as some mobs like to take swipes at group mates as they run past and the casters whine when they lose half their health. These are the ones I have to proximity pull since they are social and next to others. If I get to group taunt them or do damage on it if it's a single then I just run back past my group however I am pointed. I always do this with my back to the group and my front to the mobs. I will ask the group to move up when I start getting beat up backing up to the group.
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The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. |
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03-14-2006, 01:57 AM
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#21 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 45
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I am usually faster than the mobs. So I have the group park next my healer in a 1/2 circle. When I run back I stand in the middle of the circle and wait until it gets to me, then I charge it and hit my melee auto attack to spin my self. Works 98% of the time, sometimes pathing just won't allow it. It USUALLY works on groups of mobs too.
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03-14-2006, 02:27 AM
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#22 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23
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As a derect answer to OP:s topic... Don't start fighting untill the mob is possitioned if you have a tank kind enough to care about your possitional attacks.On a second note (after spending hour after hour in HoF trying to get BotB updates), if a mob got AE it's not a good idea to turn it since you will be forcinghealers to get in AE range to be close enough for heals.
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03-14-2006, 02:56 AM
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#23 |
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General
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 36
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HAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! Amen to that bro. When reading your posts on tanking/guardian technique you are definitely on point. (pun action) |
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03-14-2006, 05:02 AM
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#24 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 181
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Almost always turn the mob away from group - there are some circumstances were it is not feasible but not alot of them. This also allows adds to you instead of the Squishy Members of the Party. The Aggro Generator of Inflaming Defense takes over and you do not have to switch your attention off of your target. I have several alts that are not tanks, amazed at the number do not turn.
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Berek Ironaxe: 70th Dwarven Guardian, Member: Dark Crusaders Rivenn Firestorm: 59th Human Wizard Tahlathire Wildrunner: 49th Wood Elf Ranger Nektulos Server |
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03-14-2006, 10:52 AM
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#25 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 218
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Seem I have alot learn...sooo... much to know... |
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03-14-2006, 01:58 PM
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#26 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 560
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First of all, it is not the responsibility of the tank to position the mob with its back to the group. It is the responsibility of the scout to position himself according to the mob and tank. Why? Because it is far easier--and safer, for that matter--for a scout to move around the mob than it is for the tank to position a group of mobs while being stunned or knocked back/down or having to move to catch adds with Plant, and so on. The tank should pull the mobs so far back that the scouts have room to do their job without getting adds. Turning the mob, though, is an entirely different thing. I personally am a nice guy and like to help everyone do their job, so I turn the mob whenever it isn't risky or inconvenient, but that is a bonus you get when hunting with me, not something which should be expected as the default. Your job isn't just plucking arrows; your job also involves reacting to your environment, same as everyone else, tanks included. That involves adjusting your position whenever required. Of course, if you want to increase the likelihood of your tank helping out with positioning mobs conveniently for you damage dealers, then take these bits of advice: o Do not root, ever, while the tank is standing. A rooted mob aggroes whoever is highest on the hate list while within melee range. So, if the tank tries to reposition a rooted mob, he immediately loses aggro if anyone remains within melee range. That usually means a scout. o Do not stun, ever, while the tank is pulling. Few things are as annoying as one mob seemingly stuck 20 feet away from the rest of the encounter you just pulled. You do realize that our group taunts have a max range? If I have to tank mobs 20 - 30 feet apart, I have to stand in the middle of the encounter in order to catch everything with my group taunt, meaning no positioning. o If you are a priest and see a debuff on your tank, in particular a trauma debuff, then cure it. Not after 5 or 10 seconds or after you refresh any non-critical heals; cure it now. That is undoubtedly my greatest pet peeve when hunting with other priests than my wife. Don't you guys understand what roots, stuns, stifles, mez'es, and fear effects do to a tank? An immobilized tank can't move mobs away from potential adds roaming in the vicinity. A stifled tank can't taunt. A mez'ed tank loses aggro immediately. And don't get me started on debuffs. On raids in particular, but also in tougher single-group zones, such as Halls of Fate, mobs have access to devastating debuffs. -3000 mitigation, anyone? -1000 to a handful of resists already targeted by the mob? 500 power drain per tick (keep in mind, a power-drained tank can't taunt)? Cure those damned debuffs whenever you see them. It will make your life, and that of the tank, so much easier.
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Karnoz Deviation Splitpaw |
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03-14-2006, 02:41 PM
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#27 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 86
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Tanks are meant to be in front of the mob and in harms way and position the mob for the grp to do what needs to be done and to worry about adds. In fact, tanks are really only utility, very vital but still utility none the less, for the dps to do what is suppose to be done... kill the mob. The game focuses around killing the mob, if the game focused around the tank we'd all need more than one in a grp, but we don't, we just need one, need 3-4 dps however. DPS out numbers the tank, so why shouldn't one person take 5 steps to help out the majority of the grp. Any arguement against turning the mob is just ego. Always hearing, "Dont tell me how to play MY class." Well, the tank, healers and dps are all looking at different things so each could give perspective to the others. When I was still a squirt in my lower lvl days, a tank told me, "dont use your high dmg attack first, you're always taking aggro." (He did put it nicer) I listened and became better after it.So any tanks left with the notion that scouts are just being lazy, lets see how they do when dps doesn't help them out, just open up with nukes and fire away, pushing your dmg as high as it can go without bothering to use deaggro. Or dont try to off tank when the healer gets hate. Dont bother with crowd control... Not simply turning the mob is like saying we arent all in the same grp, and arent worried about helping each other out.
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03-14-2006, 04:55 PM
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#28 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 13
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Best XP and most fun for me is pulling 8 blue mobs in Sactum and let all go crazy with AEs, the Ranger chooses one with his back to him. :smileytongue: Ress the warlock if nessecary, repeat. :smileyvery-happy: |
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03-14-2006, 07:17 PM
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#29 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,039
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I am sorry, but it is the tanks job to turn the mob. Not the melee's job to get behind the mob and then start bashing, using ranged backstabs etc (as as a ranger they do exist). If the mob is turned, and a roamer comes behind the tank the tank has initial agro. And can easilly throw his/her AE taunt on or in many cases if its a single mob the tank wont have to worrya bout it as long as no one casts an AE. If a mob comes from behind, the tank can immediatly see it. Tanks have a much higher mitigation, avoidance than anyone else (obviesly), and what seems fine for you guys tears us apart.
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RIP Oakleaf 1949-2006 |
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03-14-2006, 08:20 PM
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#30 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Reading, England
Posts: 2,309
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Despite being a guardian I don't do much tanking.When I do I do try to turn the mob, but it isn't my top priority.Top is helping the group out by making sure I am the one with aggro.Second is watching for possible adds, and avoiding them which can restrict where I pull to.Then for positioning I might help the DPSers by turning the mob, or help the healers by putting my back to a wall, so that scout mobs don't get to backstab me. It depends on the situation.I have a swashie alt so I do understand both sides of this.
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