Gone 8 months... views coming back

Snikey · 02-12-2006, 08:36 AM

I know combat was revamped a lot and many times, but I can't believe Guardians are not more upset about Gaige's one-man battle with marketing lititure as his arguement. FIGHTER = TANK = I should be raid tank.

Seriously after many years dedicated to Sony MMOs, I did my research and I knew what role I wanted to play in this game. Anyway enough of marketing vs. development.

After 8 months I just came back and was very disappointed in my group dependability, I'm 35 and could not even solo a TS giant, lvl 25 ^^^. Right before the first round of combat changes I was soloing them at 30. My gear and CAs are up to par all Feyiron, and app4 or above. A mob 10 levels below me... I just couldn't fathom it. And this isn't a beg for DPS, I chose to be a guardian for the LACK of dps when they game first came out. I chose guardian for tanking ability. I played EQ1 for 4 years as a shaman. And while I know this is a completely seperate game, I knew what MA ment, it has ment the same thing in many many MMOs. Guardian was it. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] happened, I really hope this gets turned around.

EQ2 devs, look at the history of monk changes in EQ1 a lot of the same things happened. Research a little, history is to be used to learn from mistakes. Gaurdian mitigation is horrid... even to a mob 10 levels below me.

Anyway enough rant just had to get that off my chest.

Garborg

35 Guardian

jreed · 02-12-2006, 08:56 AM

weve been BEGGING SOE to un nerf the GUardians ...im praying they do because right now in a MT situation GUardians have no advantage over a tank class like say zerker..we have ZERO solo ability...mobs that OWN us every other tank class can beat solo with ease. they tank as well even in raid situations...Id love to hear SOE explain to me WHY at this point anyone would play a guardian over a ZERKER.....thank god they realized how bad the screwed us and will allow us to become zerkers in the xpansionGuardians will soon be xtinct in EQ2 becuase we dont have ANYTHING to offer another class cant and it just sux atm

Snikey · 02-12-2006, 09:11 AM

I hope to ask the Devs about this in Atlanta. I took a break from EQ2 hoping to wait the needed changes out. 8 months has not been long enough.

Sirlutt · 02-12-2006, 09:55 AM

feyiron and appIV isnt average gear anymore .. feysteel/looted legendary and AdeptIII is the new norm post LU13. Its what most content in ballanced too. At 35 I could solo the green ^^^ giants in TS in all legendary equipment.

Moontayle · 02-12-2006, 01:02 PM

Nevermind the fact that on average gear you should be fighting solo mobs. App IV and Handcrafted gear is the norm. It's what SOLO encounters YOUR LEVEL are balanced against. Heroic Encounters are balanced against three or more people in the same way. You want to solo Heroics... be my guest. Just be prepared to spend a lot of time getting your gear in order.You're better off sticking with solo mobs at your level range. They'll take less time to kill and those without any down arrows give extra exp. Of course, grouping is a better way to get good gear these days. At 35 go check out Runnyeye and kill a few named.

Snikey · 02-12-2006, 07:51 PM

Really wasn't tring to get exp off them, just had to kill one to clear to quest mob for PGT. Having to be worried about running in TS and Nek at 35 is a bit extreme, but I have to.

I went to solo instance in Nek... Underrot Cavern, I think, to try solo exp'ing. 3rd mob in hit me with a debuff, -60 STR and AGI and -56% attack speed. No biggie, except it lasts for 30 mins!! in a solo instance!! and made me uncumbered. Had to leave after 1 mob took my whole power bar to kill and took forever. Zoned out... great a pack of wanderers at the zone out, died... starting to realize why I took a break for EQ. Devs seem to like to have little things in game to cause grief like this.

One point to this, not hugh thing... why is there 1 aggro crab on Nek beach, right at the end of the dock? None of the other crabs are KoS. It does nothing but cause grief.

SniperKitty · 02-12-2006, 08:47 PM

First, all fighters are meant to be tanks for all content. That was the design promised by the archetype system. Interchangeability between the classes and sub-classes within an archetype. Sure, some classes might make a specific encounter easier, but in theory there should never be any encounter in which only one fighter can tank it and no fighter should be the best at all encounters.Second, you're in handcrafted gear trying to solo a heroic mob. Tanks suck at this unless they're in at least legendary armor with a full set of adept1 or higher combat arts. I nearly died to GREY con heroics (lvl 32) with my paladin at lvl 44. I had to change my stance to defensive, equip my shield, and use stuns and interrupts to survive the fight. My paladin is only in treasured gear that has 50 less mitigation on each piece, compared to ebon.Third, no tank deserves to have a tanking or aggro advantage over any other tank. Each fighter should be able to tank in their own fashion without regard to what the other tanks do while tanking. As for what a fighter does when they're not the tank? Uh... if I'm playing a fighter, I'm the tank or the offtank, nothing more. I don't join groups to be anything but some form of tank when playing my fighters. When I'm not playing my fighters, I don't invite more fighters than are absolutely needed and I don't really care which fighters I invite, as long as they're not all the same type.Fourth, the solo dungeons from the Bloodline Chronicles are vicious to non-priests. The debuff that hit you was not from a mob, but from one of the vases/coffins that are trapped. If you ignore the vases/coffins or anything that's breakable except walls, you shouldn't have a problem down there. Otherwise, you'll want to take along a stack of potions to cure each type of debuff. However, I would just not bother with anything breakable since I have never gotten anything worthwhile from them.

Salgo · 02-12-2006, 10:26 PM

Sniperkitty wrote:Third, no tank deserves to have a tanking or aggro advantage over any other tank. Each fighter should be able to tank in their own fashion without regard to what the other tanks do while tanking. As for what a fighter does when they're not the tank? Uh... if I'm playing a fighter, I'm the tank or the offtank, nothing more. I don't join groups to be anything but some form of tank when playing my fighters. When I'm not playing my fighters, I don't invite more fighters than are absolutely needed and I don't really care which fighters I invite, as long as they're not all the same type.

This is not currently the case by the way. Guardians are on the bottom of the heap for single target aggro and maybe #2 or #3 in multi-mob aggro. However excluding all that, what this theory neglects to take into account is that if no fighter has an aggro advantage, and all fighters tank equally (mitigation vs avoidance), then the one with more DPS will have an advantage as they will help take out the mob faster and therefore are more efficient. Also keep in mind that DPS > taunting IMO. Here's why: If I am spending my time taunting while my counterpart is doing equal amounts of damage, we are both spending power but he is doing the added damage. For example, I single target aggro for 800 hate, an offensive based target does damage for 800 which gives him 800 hate PLUS it has delivered damage. So in my opinion you have to give the taunting tank (Guardians) an advantage so that the others in his/her group can make up the DPS gap by pushing thier limit a little bit more (NOT AGGRO LOCK BY ANY MEANS).
This would be tough to balance if all fighters mitigated damage and you had an offensive vs. defensive fighter. But you throw in avoidance based fighters and you have just made things exponentially more complex.
As to your Off-tank comment...fighters that are offensive based then get an advantage since they do more DPS (sometime a lot more). So this is why you hear most of the non-raiding Guardians asking for a boost. If we all tank equally, then we must DPS equally. This doesn't even address the imbalance in Utility that helps in solo situations etc.. Now some might say that SOE never said that the sub-classes would all solo equally, but really think about that for a second. If you all tank equally, why then would anybody choose a defensive based tank since you will be the slowest soloer, a less desired off-tank, and perhaps the most inefficient XP group MT? Some might say..."You get more Defense". But what the heck does that mean since we all tank EQUALLY since LU13??
That's the million dollar question for us Non-raiding Guards.

Message Edited by Salgore on 02-12-200609:37 AM

SniperKitty · 02-12-2006, 10:54 PM

Salgore wrote:
This is not currently the case by the way. Guardians are on the bottom of the heap for single target aggro and maybe #2 or #3 in multi-mob aggro.
I disagree. You can't lower on single target aggro than you are on group aggro. Anything that effects the group also affects the single target. So everything you do to a group that puts you at #2 or #3 also applies to single targets.
However excluding all that, what this theory neglects to take into account is that if no fighter has an aggro advantage, and all fighters tank equally (mitigation vs avoidance), then the one with more DPS will have an advantage as they will help take out the mob faster and therefore are more efficient. Also keep in mind that DPS > taunting IMO.
Did you not read the analysis of the guardian thread? It's very informative. Bruisers have better upfront dps, which does help with initial threat generation, but as proven by that thread, every thirty seconds, guardian dps matches that of bruiser dps. If the fight is only lasting thirty seconds, both tanks are doing an equal amount of damage.
Here's why: If I am spending my time taunting while my counterpart is doing equal amounts of damage, we are both spending power but he is doing the added damage. For example, I single target aggro for 800 hate, an offensive based target does damage for 800 which gives him 800 hate PLUS it has delivered damage. So in my opinion you have to give the taunting tank (Guardians) an advantage so that the others in his/her group can make up the DPS gap by pushing thier limit a little bit more (NOT AGGRO LOCK BY ANY MEANS).
I dunno... 800 hate or 800 damage... they're pretty much equal. Both have a chance to be resisted or blocked/parried/deflected/dodged or just plain missed. In fact, the attacks have a worse chance of landing.
As to your Off-tank comment...fighters that are offensive based then get an advantage since they do more DPS (sometime a lot more). So this is why you hear most of the non-raiding Guardians asking for a boost. If we all tank equally, then we must DPS equally.
You already dps equal to a bruiser. What more do you want? Bruiser's dps is front loaded. Guardian dps builds up. That's the only difference.
This doesn't even address the imbalance in Utility that helps in solo situations etc.. Now some might say that SOE never said that the sub-classes would all solo equally, but really think about that for a second. If you all tank equally, why then would anybody choose a defensive based tank since you will be the slowest soloer, a less desired off-tank, and perhaps the most inefficient XP group MT? That's the million dollar question for us Non-raiding Guards.
Soloing shouldn't have any bearing on grouping or raiding. You will never, ever be able to balance anything if you include soloing. There's just no way you can balance that in all aspects. Now, your question about why people would choose to play a guardian... well... maybe they just like the idea behind the guardian. A solid tank in heavy plate with a huge shield and powerful weapon that can defend the group in case the poo hits the fan.I chose to make my paladin my main fighter character not because of any special abilties or whatever. I chose the paladin because I liked the idea of a holy knight. Since she's a fighter, I expect, no... I demand that I be able to tank all content. Sure, some content might be easier than others with certain fighters, but there should never ever be any content that one fighter can tank and no other can. There should never be any content that any fighter can't tank period.If there is, it becomes pointless to have any fighter in the game other than the one that can tank all the content.

Moontayle · 02-13-2006, 01:13 AM

Actually Salgore, we're still up there for aggro management. We sort of share the top spot with Paladins since they have Amends but that's only if they have a killer DPS class to group with. Otherwise, Guardians have the most tools available to them to hold aggro and I can't remember the last time someone either my level or lower was able to pull aggro from me.

SniperKitty · 02-13-2006, 01:24 AM

I only lose aggro with my paladin when I get lazy and don't use my taunts or the person with my amends-line spell is one isn't doing their job. ^_^ Kinda sucks at times, having to rely on someone else doing their job to maintain aggro, but in reality, we all rely on others to know their role to maintain aggro.

Blackdouglass · 02-13-2006, 04:05 AM

SniperKitty wrote:
Here's why: If I am spending my time taunting while my counterpart is doing equal amounts of damage, we are both spending power but he is doing the added damage. For example, I single target aggro for 800 hate, an offensive based target does damage for 800 which gives him 800 hate PLUS it has delivered damage. So in my opinion you have to give the taunting tank (Guardians) an advantage so that the others in his/her group can make up the DPS gap by pushing thier limit a little bit more (NOT AGGRO LOCK BY ANY MEANS).
I dunno... 800 hate or 800 damage... they're pretty much equal. Both have a chance to be resisted or blocked/parried/deflected/dodged or just plain missed. In fact, the attacks have a worse chance of landing.__________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _I believe the point that was trying to be made here is that the dps gets 800 hate PLUS 800 dmg were as a taunt only get hate. Hate and dmg is always more effective.
This doesn't even address the imbalance in Utility that helps in solo situations etc.. Now some might say that SOE never said that the sub-classes would all solo equally, but really think about that for a second. If you all tank equally, why then would anybody choose a defensive based tank since you will be the slowest soloer, a less desired off-tank, and perhaps the most inefficient XP group MT? That's the million dollar question for us Non-raiding Guards.
Soloing shouldn't have any bearing on grouping or raiding. You will never, ever be able to balance anything if you include soloing. There's just no way you can balance that in all aspects. Now, your question about why people would choose to play a guardian... well... maybe they just like the idea behind the guardian. A solid tank in heavy plate with a huge shield and powerful weapon that can defend the group in case the poo hits the fan.

Yes I believe that most guardians picked there class to wear heavy plate (which priests and other tanks wear as well) have a huge shield (Zerkers use tower shield as well) and a powerful weapon (well CA aren't weapon dependent so a few classes really get an advatage here). So I guess the issue comes down to precptions. Most of the guardians on this forum don't feel like an inmovable wall of steel any more. They are the most plain class around now. Before LU 13 they we at least aggro master now the are a fighter with not much to make them feel unique. Would a pally be as fun to play with the heals and divine dmg spell? Take that away and you have a guardian same mit as other plate classes, similiar HPs, no real dps.And as far as the dps compairsion goes what about all the 45 sec fights that guards are out dpsed in. How many fights break and a 30 sec mark? In a good group most of my fights are under 30 secs unless it's a boss mob. Balance on paper does not mean balance in game. This is a chaotic system and needs to be "balance" that way. Linear functions will not work imo.

Message Edited by Blackdouglass on 02-12-200603:07 PM

Salgo · 02-13-2006, 07:49 AM

Sniperkitty wrote:I disagree. You can't lower on single target aggro than you are on group aggro. Anything that effects the group also affects the single target. So everything you do to a group that puts you at #2 or #3 also applies to single targets.

I am stating that other fighters that can out DPS us are better at holding single target aggro than Guardians. I have seen accounts on other boards that state the same thing. One stated (from a Bruiser) that a Bruiser going all out was keeping aggro from a Ranger going all out. This is not true for Guardians so my point stands. As for multi-mobs, perhaps when they nerfed Amends we are equal to Pally's I don't know for sure. But instead of nerfing all the time you would think that SOE would just fix ours.

Did you not read the analysis of the guardian thread? It's very informative. Bruisers have better upfront dps, which does help with initial threat generation, but as proven by that thread, every thirty seconds, guardian dps matches that of bruiser dps. If the fight is only lasting thirty seconds, both tanks are doing an equal amount of damage.

Actually I did read the analysis and although it is very good overall, it intentionally ignores auto attack DPS because he makes the assumption that with the same weapons we do the same damage. What he failed to acknowledge is that when we are fighting anything tough (non-raid) we will use our sword and board to get the extra avoidance. Bruisers however, have the avoidance inately and thus continue to Dual Wield (more DPS)!
Even assuming that we are equal in DPS, given that most XP encounters last less than 30 seconds, Bruisers will out DPS us, kill the mob faster, and have more power left by doing it. This allows the group to gain more xp/hour and is more efficient. You have also neglected to mention the other part of the analysis which states that in order for a Guardian to do the same DPS (combat art wise and over time) that they must expend a lot more Mana (see the chart). Plus nobody uses all their CA's when MT for XP Group. You take our best 3-4 CA's and Bruiser's best CA's and you will begin to see the difference.

I dunno... 800 hate or 800 damage... they're pretty much equal. Both have a chance to be resisted or blocked/parried/deflected/dodged or just plain missed. In fact, the attacks have a worse chance of landing.

As someone has already mentioned, it is not equal. In effect, the Bruiser has generated the same hate, but has decreased the health of the target as well which is more efficient in XP Groups. To catch up, the Guard will have to hit a couple of CA's expending more power and now you start to see the power draining problem that we have as Guards.

You already dps equal to a bruiser. What more do you want? Bruiser's dps is front loaded. Guardian dps builds up. That's the only difference.

Please re-read the Guardian analysis that you mentioned above. Apparently you have read the portion that stated that with all our CA's we are equal to Bruisers over time and then stopped. You have neglected to read on where some of the problems are discussed. You also forgot that since we are all equal we need to be equal when not the MT. This is currently not the case because if you read ahead the comparison was made by omitting some of the Powerful Combat Arts that Bruiser would not use as MT but WOULD use when off-tanking. Besides this basically states that we do our Damage over Time...just ask the SK's, who build Hate over Time, and ask them which they think is better...front loaded or over time. And then run.

Soloing shouldn't have any bearing on grouping or raiding. You will never, ever be able to balance anything if you include soloing. There's just no way you can balance that in all aspects. Now, your question about why people would choose to play a guardian... well... maybe they just like the idea behind the guardian. A solid tank in heavy plate with a huge shield and powerful weapon that can defend the group in case the poo hits the fan.I chose to make my paladin my main fighter character not because of any special abilties or whatever. I chose the paladin because I liked the idea of a holy knight. Since she's a fighter, I expect, no... I demand that I be able to tank all content. Sure, some content might be easier than others with certain fighters, but there should never ever be any content that one fighter can tank and no other can. There should never be any content that any fighter can't tank period.If there is, it becomes pointless to have any fighter in the game other than the one that can tank all the content.

No, if SOE decided to balance tanking then they must also balance the other side of the equation or you give a CLEAR advantage to the other tanking classes. You make the statement, a demand, that "there should never be any content that any fighter can't tank period." Fine but then I demand that there should never be any mobs that one fighter can solo and the other can't. So if others are able to solo Yellow Con heroics, and this is deemed ok which it shouldn't, then all fighter classes should be able to. Seems fair right?
By the way I noticed that you didn't roll a Guardian. May I ask why? I mean we wear the same armor, have more defense, and we can use bows. Perhaps, although you state it's the idea of a holy knight, it is the fact that they have better resists against magic, can heal, and rez. Nah...I'm sure that's not true in your case but my point is that for a lot of others they do come into play.

Message Edited by Salgore on 02-12-200607:04 PM

Message Edited by Salgore on 02-12-200607:06 PM

Crim001 · 02-13-2006, 08:49 AM

I have to agree with Salagore here.....

I would very much like to be able to solo to the same extent that bruisers and monks can. While I do not want to achieve the same DPS, if we are all equal then we should all be able to accomplish roughly the same thing. If a bruiser can solo X mob in 20 seconds, then I want to solo it in say, 40 seconds, but leave with more health and power. Just a rough idea, probably could use much tweaking.

BTW, the analysis thread shows CA damage only. It says that every 30 seconds, our combat arts reach the same amount of damage. But the bruiser gets bursts of DPS that are far more helpful in both the group setting and the solo setting. Most fights that I have seen usually don't last much longer then 30 seconds, and definitly far less in a solo fight. In another thread, or perhaps the same one, there are a few screenies of bruiser and guard adept III taunts. Both are exactly the same. Seems pretty bogus to me. As a taunt reliant tank, having another tank that isn't taunt reliant with the same degree of taunt really sucks.

<--- Most of the opinions in here are just rough ideas, not completely and thoroughly thought out, so plz refrain from the serious flames....

Crim001 · 02-13-2006, 08:57 AM

Snikey wrote:
I know combat was revamped a lot and many times, but I can't believe Guardians are not more upset about Gaige's one-man battle with marketing lititure as his arguement. FIGHTER = TANK = I should be raid tank.
I've noticed that hes stopped posting here regularly, I guess we are nerfed enough for him now.

After 8 months I just came back and was very disappointed in my group dependability, I'm 35 and could not even solo a TS giant, lvl 25 ^^^. Right before the first round of combat changes I was soloing them at 30. My gear and CAs are up to par all Feyiron, and app4 or above. A mob 10 levels below me...
Around a month back, I was wandering around in EL (at 55)and happened to see a ranger guard duo taking the named badger on. Guard was 35 and ranger 37.....Natually guard lost aggro and ranger died, so I stepped in to tank until he got back. Within the first 10 seconds that the ranger had gotten back, he got aggro back as well. Quite a shock since I had laid quite a bit of aggro on him (this could be because i was using taunts only and not attacking, but still a shock). However, I now am a proud owner of a 21 monk and soon to be 20 bruiser with masters/legendaries that I soloed off names .
I just couldn't fathom it. And this isn't a beg for DPS, I chose to be a guardian for the LACK of dps when they game first came out. I chose guardian for tanking ability.
And apparently, our defining role was just too good and the rest of the tanks decided to complain about it until they got it as well. Since we are a pure tank with only one real skill, if you give that skill to the rest of the tanks.....it pretty much defeats our purpose.

turbo_0 · 02-13-2006, 09:07 AM

All i can say is I played a guard to level 50, then played an alt berzerker to level 50, I now exclusivly play my Zerk, takes 10 times longer to kill any mob with guard, and realy NO noticable tanking dif, if anything i can mitigate batter with my Zerker, . I will hold onto my Guard of course hoping for positive Changes to him , wont hold my breath though, cause i always liked the idea of Playing the guard and was my first choice. I also play Shammy on EQ1 for 4 yrs. LOVED every second of it, very different roll in this game and couldnt handle the shamn roll here. Of course Shams where broken for ever to, hehe.

Snikey · 02-13-2006, 10:57 AM

I see I'm coming to terms with a lot of the new changes still... Every class have these issues solo?

But still in the role of fighters / tanks... they stole something from us, I thought it would only take time to fix. Hasn't happened.

Salgore wrote:
If we all tank equally, then we must DPS equally. This doesn't even address the imbalance in Utility that helps in solo situations etc.. Now some might say that SOE never said that the sub-classes would all solo equally, but really think about that for a second. If you all tank equally, why then would anybody choose a defensive based tank since you will be the slowest soloer, a less desired off-tank, and perhaps the most inefficient XP group MT? Some might say..."You get more Defense". But what the heck does that mean since we all tank EQUALLY since LU13??

I still dont know why soloing has nothing to do with it, I see it as taking a purer form of combat. My lack of dps should = better defense(tanking) to offset. When soloing I should be able to end the fight what in a similar situation (life/power) when compared to other fighters. NOW, you say that wasn't a promise? What was the promise with solo content? Ok even if you dont agree there, in a group situation others in the group have to make up for my lack of dps... why should that NOT mean I have better aggro control than another fighter who actually contributes dps while tanking?

SniperKitty wrote:
I chose to make my paladin my main fighter character not because of any special abilties or whatever. I chose the paladin because I liked the idea of a holy knight. Since she's a fighter, I expect, no... I demand that I be able to tank all content. Sure, some content might be easier than others with certain fighters, but there should never ever be any content that one fighter can tank and no other can. There should never be any content that any fighter can't tank period.

Call out the NERFING quick!!! There is content Guardians tank because of high HP!!!! To bad this means nothing lowers levels.

SniperKitty wrote:
You will never, ever be able to balance anything if you include soloing. There's just no way you can balance that in all aspects.

I have heard this stated so many times on these boards. It seems to be the catch all argueement. It's not an argueement. IT'S AN EXCUSE. I call BS.

Gaige · 02-13-2006, 12:01 PM

Snikey wrote:
I know combat was revamped a lot and many times, but I can't believe Guardians are not more upset about Gaige's one-man battle with marketing lititure as his arguement. FIGHTER = TANK = I should be raid tank.

It wasn't just me, and SOE said fighter = tank, not I. I just held them to it.

Thanks though, for all the credit.

Snikey · 02-13-2006, 12:51 PM

Don't post on this thread please you've done enough thank you. It was marketing literature! What SOE did was let the marketing guys tell them how to run a game, with monk fan boys cheering them on... the same thing happened with SWG cambat, it's a mess. Either make 1 class that is called "Fighter" OR stop caterting to everyone crying equal but different!! It's BS! Guardians picked guardians to sacrafice everything else to be the best at one thing.

Go do some more parse'ing and stop trolling on my thread.

** just to add 1 little bit... I'd love to see priest, mages, and scouts all scream EQUAL but different!! and see how much more mass exodus you could cause Gaige:p go roll up a Bard and start screaming about dps.

Message Edited by Snikey on 02-12-200611:57 PM

Gaige · 02-13-2006, 01:29 PM

Snikey wrote:
Don't post on this thread please you've done enough thank you.

Don't bring me up then. I'm sure you can complain about your class without saying my name, right?

Wabit · 02-13-2006, 03:53 PM

too much quoting i lost track of who was saying what =(...

umm group agro doesn't always translate to single target argo... its the difference in the stances which put brawlers above guardians, its even more noticable on low yellow and below conning mobs... but i think the OP was more about soloing...

in soloing guards are the worst tank class... in equal gear we'll always be the worst... its just not built into our class to be solo friendly...

our off stance is really in need of some love... with just swapping out jewelry last night solo i had 500str in off stance (one str imbued ring, no str hex dolls)... and my jewelry isn't really anything to write home about, only one item of it takes more than one decent group to get (djinn ring), and by decent i mean can kill cazel...

but you did pick one of the worst zones to try and solo... the mobs in there are really underconned... i soloed the whole expansion preLU13, even then i think the boss mob there was the hardest fight i ever had soloing (kite soloing the green x2 in icespire was easier)... it wasn't a debuff that hit ya, it was a pot trap... when i was doing that zone i learned to take some of the cure effect potions that merchants sell...

Blackdouglass · 02-13-2006, 06:49 PM

Gaige wrote:
Snikey wrote:
I know combat was revamped a lot and many times, but I can't believe Guardians are not more upset about Gaige's one-man battle with marketing lititure as his arguement. FIGHTER = TANK = I should be raid tank.
It wasn't just me, and SOE said fighter = tank, not I. I just held them to it.
Thanks though, for all the credit.

SOE also said in the begining that only tank wearing Vanguard Plate would be guardians. Why aren't you fighting that fight. Let's return the game to the one Prima made the guide for if that's what your vision is. According to the "Official" guide Guardians are "a walking tank, encased in layers of metal and impervious to attack" This was the infromation available at the time so I made my decision. I know SOE holds the right to alter the game at anytime but you can't hold on to one ideal because it is conveient for you. If you want the original vision it needs to be the original vision for ALL. So help us out man bring back the orignal vision and HOLD Sony to it.Thanks in advance for assisting Guardians in returning to thier roll of "a walking tank"

Message Edited by Blackdouglass on 02-13-200605:50 AM

Rah · 02-13-2006, 07:31 PM

Current reality as I see it...

Legendary (crafted) is baseline to even begin to be self reliable or a tank that will maintain some sort of reputation as being able to take the damage in the content that most players are looking to do.

Focus on your armour first highest mit item to lowest. If you dont have time to raid your level raid content and take a stab at aquiring the drops you need to get the crafting done, then prepare to harvest yourself into oblivion (although the rate of drop is no were near as bad as you remember). If that does not look like a promising path then join the million of Ranger/Monk/Pet class alts and farm spawn (insert zone here) for the one out of 3 or so master chest. Then sell the Masters for the cash or trade to armor smiths that may want them (as alts are amok more so than ever).

Adept 1 min taunt lines, your advantage is now with a group that will "work with you" in controling the entire encounter and the additional encounter adds better than your average I am a DPS god watch me go tank.

A you gain in gear and combat arts the content will appear to become something you can manage.

Until you watch a scout or two kite a ^^^ Heroic 4 levels higher or a brawler do the same standing in his face.

Best advice is really take a hard look at your skills and figure out the best sequence to use them in for each encounter. the only other thing I can tell you is that there are those of us here who understand were you are coming from and will try to keep the arguments alive with raw data, supporting lines of argument and ignoring the trolls and post derailing masses that often post here (see your post results above).

Rahge

SniperKitty · 02-13-2006, 09:32 PM

Snikey wrote:
I have heard this stated so many times on these boards. It seems to be the catch all argueement. It's not an argueement. IT'S AN EXCUSE. I call BS.
It's not an excuse. It's pure fact. As long as they try to pigeonhole each archetype into a specified role with different means of performing that role, there will never ever be balance based on what class can solo what and how. Never. It's pure idiocy to even attempt it. Trust me. I know. I re-wrote the entire class system for a NWN mod and spent months just fiddling around with things trying to get them balanced and just gave up.The only way to perfectly balance solo/group/raid is to give everyone the same AC / Mitigation / DPS. The only differences between a Caster and a Tank would be the amount of HP they have, the special tricks and utility they have, and their style of attacks. That is the only way you will have near perfect balance between the classes and solo/group/raid.

Snikey · 02-13-2006, 10:45 PM

Well, with how broken guardians are I'm all for screaming EQUAL BUT DIFFERENT and every little thing in game. Because it's a dumb argeement, and it's the one that made us broken.

Guradians are not equal in anyway shape or form in soloing. Guardians are extremely lacking in douing. Guardians do not make this up in group/raid aggro control. Guardians do not make this up with tanking ability. We are ALL SAME AND EQUAL!

Wasuna · 02-13-2006, 11:06 PM

1. Guardians tank about as well as anybody else.

2. I only hold agro well when I have agro transferd to me from an Assassin or the like. My taunts work fine but my DPS lacks and my total taunt/DPS can not keep up with a DPS class going all out. I get lazy when I get agro transferd to me and actually have power to keep going and stuff. Guardians now have a requirement of an Assassin, Dirge or Swashbuckler be grouped with them for agro. Maybe Brigands also but I can;t remember if they have a transfer spell.

3. My DPS is less than half that most other fighters. I have parsed this and proven it over and over.

4. The fighters I can out DPS can heal themselves and have amends which pulls agro from somebody at their own choice. I can reduce somebody elses agro but I can not pull it to myself. When I'm grouped with two DPS classes and one is an Assasin I can do very well. Agro from the Assassin and I reduce agro from the otehr DPS class.

5. Guardians have no role other than to be tank which we can do equally well if we have an agro crutch from another class. We have broken utility, horrible DPS and just no other role to fill. Thanks SOE, your such nice people to give us all this.

6. Good thing I didn't read this whole thread. One thread with both Sniperkitty posting his unproveable and totally incorrect ideas and Gaiges little witticisms would have been to much for my fragile heart.

Crim001 · 02-14-2006, 09:20 AM

SniperKitty wrote:
It's not an excuse. It's pure fact. As long as they try to pigeonhole each archetype into a specified role with different means of performing that role, there will never ever be balance based on what class can solo what and how. Never. It's pure idiocy to even attempt it. Trust me. I know. I re-wrote the entire class system for a NWN mod and spent months just fiddling around with things trying to get them balanced and just gave up.
And yet, this was certain peoples main argument to get guards nerfed in the first place though wasn't it?The only way to perfectly balance solo/group/raid is to give everyone the same AC / Mitigation / DPS. The only differences between a Caster and a Tank would be the amount of HP they have, the special tricks and utility they have, and their style of attacks. That is the only way you will have near perfect balance between the classes and solo/group/raid.Ok, just say that everyone was equal, and that the only difference would be in HP and utility. What would guards have over the rest?

Theonol · 02-14-2006, 10:48 AM

Personally I have about given up on SOE on ever fixing guardians (so I wasted over a year of my time, ty SOE :smileymad: ) I started playing a zerker now and alot more fun imo.

Message Edited by Theonolis on 02-14-200608:57 AM

Snikey · 02-14-2006, 11:47 AM

Well I'm only 36... but dread re-rolling, hard enough to level up with the shrinking populace. If you wanted to raid tank as a monk go play Matrix or something. Equal but different my bottom.

Wasuna · 02-14-2006, 09:48 PM

Really, if you have a group of friends that you tank for then your OK. You can enjoy the game and just do your thing. That is the role Guardians were designed to fill. They didn't change our design with LU13, just changed all the other fighters.

02-12-2006, 09:55 AM	#4
Sirlutt Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,149	feyiron and appIV isnt average gear anymore .. feysteel/looted legendary and AdeptIII is the new norm post LU13. Its what most content in ballanced too. At 35 I could solo the green ^^^ giants in TS in all legendary equipment. __________________ I heart DE Broads

02-12-2006, 01:02 PM	#5
Moontayle Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 167	Nevermind the fact that on average gear you should be fighting solo mobs. App IV and Handcrafted gear is the norm. It's what SOLO encounters YOUR LEVEL are balanced against. Heroic Encounters are balanced against three or more people in the same way. You want to solo Heroics... be my guest. Just be prepared to spend a lot of time getting your gear in order.You're better off sticking with solo mobs at your level range. They'll take less time to kill and those without any down arrows give extra exp. Of course, grouping is a better way to get good gear these days. At 35 go check out Runnyeye and kill a few named. __________________ Regards, Trayson, Guardian of Gnomish Marine Corps Writer in Progress Current Project: Daryn. 21k written out of 100k planned.

02-12-2006, 08:47 PM	#7
SniperKitty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 297	First, all fighters are meant to be tanks for all content. That was the design promised by the archetype system. Interchangeability between the classes and sub-classes within an archetype. Sure, some classes might make a specific encounter easier, but in theory there should never be any encounter in which only one fighter can tank it and no fighter should be the best at all encounters.Second, you're in handcrafted gear trying to solo a heroic mob. Tanks suck at this unless they're in at least legendary armor with a full set of adept1 or higher combat arts. I nearly died to GREY con heroics (lvl 32) with my paladin at lvl 44. I had to change my stance to defensive, equip my shield, and use stuns and interrupts to survive the fight. My paladin is only in treasured gear that has 50 less mitigation on each piece, compared to ebon.Third, no tank deserves to have a tanking or aggro advantage over any other tank. Each fighter should be able to tank in their own fashion without regard to what the other tanks do while tanking. As for what a fighter does when they're not the tank? Uh... if I'm playing a fighter, I'm the tank or the offtank, nothing more. I don't join groups to be anything but some form of tank when playing my fighters. When I'm not playing my fighters, I don't invite more fighters than are absolutely needed and I don't really care which fighters I invite, as long as they're not all the same type.Fourth, the solo dungeons from the Bloodline Chronicles are vicious to non-priests. The debuff that hit you was not from a mob, but from one of the vases/coffins that are trapped. If you ignore the vases/coffins or anything that's breakable except walls, you shouldn't have a problem down there. Otherwise, you'll want to take along a stack of potions to cure each type of debuff. However, I would just not bother with anything breakable since I have never gotten anything worthwhile from them. __________________ ... in bed.

02-12-2006, 10:26 PM	#8
Salgo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 90	Sniperkitty wrote:Third, no tank deserves to have a tanking or aggro advantage over any other tank. Each fighter should be able to tank in their own fashion without regard to what the other tanks do while tanking. As for what a fighter does when they're not the tank? Uh... if I'm playing a fighter, I'm the tank or the offtank, nothing more. I don't join groups to be anything but some form of tank when playing my fighters. When I'm not playing my fighters, I don't invite more fighters than are absolutely needed and I don't really care which fighters I invite, as long as they're not all the same type. This is not currently the case by the way. Guardians are on the bottom of the heap for single target aggro and maybe #2 or #3 in multi-mob aggro. However excluding all that, what this theory neglects to take into account is that if no fighter has an aggro advantage, and all fighters tank equally (mitigation vs avoidance), then the one with more DPS will have an advantage as they will help take out the mob faster and therefore are more efficient. Also keep in mind that DPS > taunting IMO. Here's why: If I am spending my time taunting while my counterpart is doing equal amounts of damage, we are both spending power but he is doing the added damage. For example, I single target aggro for 800 hate, an offensive based target does damage for 800 which gives him 800 hate PLUS it has delivered damage. So in my opinion you have to give the taunting tank (Guardians) an advantage so that the others in his/her group can make up the DPS gap by pushing thier limit a little bit more (NOT AGGRO LOCK BY ANY MEANS). This would be tough to balance if all fighters mitigated damage and you had an offensive vs. defensive fighter. But you throw in avoidance based fighters and you have just made things exponentially more complex. As to your Off-tank comment...fighters that are offensive based then get an advantage since they do more DPS (sometime a lot more). So this is why you hear most of the non-raiding Guardians asking for a boost. If we all tank equally, then we must DPS equally. This doesn't even address the imbalance in Utility that helps in solo situations etc.. Now some might say that SOE never said that the sub-classes would all solo equally, but really think about that for a second. If you all tank equally, why then would anybody choose a defensive based tank since you will be the slowest soloer, a less desired off-tank, and perhaps the most inefficient XP group MT? Some might say..."You get more Defense". But what the heck does that mean since we all tank EQUALLY since LU13?? That's the million dollar question for us Non-raiding Guards. Message Edited by Salgore on 02-12-200609:37 AM

02-12-2006, 10:54 PM	#9
SniperKitty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 297	Salgore wrote: This is not currently the case by the way. Guardians are on the bottom of the heap for single target aggro and maybe #2 or #3 in multi-mob aggro. I disagree. You can't lower on single target aggro than you are on group aggro. Anything that effects the group also affects the single target. So everything you do to a group that puts you at #2 or #3 also applies to single targets. However excluding all that, what this theory neglects to take into account is that if no fighter has an aggro advantage, and all fighters tank equally (mitigation vs avoidance), then the one with more DPS will have an advantage as they will help take out the mob faster and therefore are more efficient. Also keep in mind that DPS > taunting IMO. Did you not read the analysis of the guardian thread? It's very informative. Bruisers have better upfront dps, which does help with initial threat generation, but as proven by that thread, every thirty seconds, guardian dps matches that of bruiser dps. If the fight is only lasting thirty seconds, both tanks are doing an equal amount of damage. Here's why: If I am spending my time taunting while my counterpart is doing equal amounts of damage, we are both spending power but he is doing the added damage. For example, I single target aggro for 800 hate, an offensive based target does damage for 800 which gives him 800 hate PLUS it has delivered damage. So in my opinion you have to give the taunting tank (Guardians) an advantage so that the others in his/her group can make up the DPS gap by pushing thier limit a little bit more (NOT AGGRO LOCK BY ANY MEANS). I dunno... 800 hate or 800 damage... they're pretty much equal. Both have a chance to be resisted or blocked/parried/deflected/dodged or just plain missed. In fact, the attacks have a worse chance of landing. As to your Off-tank comment...fighters that are offensive based then get an advantage since they do more DPS (sometime a lot more). So this is why you hear most of the non-raiding Guardians asking for a boost. If we all tank equally, then we must DPS equally. You already dps equal to a bruiser. What more do you want? Bruiser's dps is front loaded. Guardian dps builds up. That's the only difference. This doesn't even address the imbalance in Utility that helps in solo situations etc.. Now some might say that SOE never said that the sub-classes would all solo equally, but really think about that for a second. If you all tank equally, why then would anybody choose a defensive based tank since you will be the slowest soloer, a less desired off-tank, and perhaps the most inefficient XP group MT? That's the million dollar question for us Non-raiding Guards. Soloing shouldn't have any bearing on grouping or raiding. You will never, ever be able to balance anything if you include soloing. There's just no way you can balance that in all aspects. Now, your question about why people would choose to play a guardian... well... maybe they just like the idea behind the guardian. A solid tank in heavy plate with a huge shield and powerful weapon that can defend the group in case the poo hits the fan.I chose to make my paladin my main fighter character not because of any special abilties or whatever. I chose the paladin because I liked the idea of a holy knight. Since she's a fighter, I expect, no... I demand that I be able to tank all content. Sure, some content might be easier than others with certain fighters, but there should never ever be any content that one fighter can tank and no other can. There should never be any content that any fighter can't tank period.If there is, it becomes pointless to have any fighter in the game other than the one that can tank all the content. __________________ ... in bed.

02-12-2006, 08:36 AM	#1
Snikey Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 135	I know combat was revamped a lot and many times, but I can't believe Guardians are not more upset about Gaige's one-man battle with marketing lititure as his arguement. FIGHTER = TANK = I should be raid tank. Seriously after many years dedicated to Sony MMOs, I did my research and I knew what role I wanted to play in this game. Anyway enough of marketing vs. development. After 8 months I just came back and was very disappointed in my group dependability, I'm 35 and could not even solo a TS giant, lvl 25 ^^^. Right before the first round of combat changes I was soloing them at 30. My gear and CAs are up to par all Feyiron, and app4 or above. A mob 10 levels below me... I just couldn't fathom it. And this isn't a beg for DPS, I chose to be a guardian for the LACK of dps when they game first came out. I chose guardian for tanking ability. I played EQ1 for 4 years as a shaman. And while I know this is a completely seperate game, I knew what MA ment, it has ment the same thing in many many MMOs. Guardian was it. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] happened, I really hope this gets turned around. EQ2 devs, look at the history of monk changes in EQ1 a lot of the same things happened. Research a little, history is to be used to learn from mistakes. Gaurdian mitigation is horrid... even to a mob 10 levels below me. Anyway enough rant just had to get that off my chest. Garborg 35 Guardian

02-12-2006, 08:56 AM	#2
jreed Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 28	weve been BEGGING SOE to un nerf the GUardians ...im praying they do because right now in a MT situation GUardians have no advantage over a tank class like say zerker..we have ZERO solo ability...mobs that OWN us every other tank class can beat solo with ease. they tank as well even in raid situations...Id love to hear SOE explain to me WHY at this point anyone would play a guardian over a ZERKER.....thank god they realized how bad the screwed us and will allow us to become zerkers in the xpansionGuardians will soon be xtinct in EQ2 becuase we dont have ANYTHING to offer another class cant and it just sux atm

02-12-2006, 09:11 AM	#3
Snikey Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 135	I hope to ask the Devs about this in Atlanta. I took a break from EQ2 hoping to wait the needed changes out. 8 months has not been long enough.

02-12-2006, 07:51 PM	#6
Snikey Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 135	Really wasn't tring to get exp off them, just had to kill one to clear to quest mob for PGT. Having to be worried about running in TS and Nek at 35 is a bit extreme, but I have to. I went to solo instance in Nek... Underrot Cavern, I think, to try solo exp'ing. 3rd mob in hit me with a debuff, -60 STR and AGI and -56% attack speed. No biggie, except it lasts for 30 mins!! in a solo instance!! and made me uncumbered. Had to leave after 1 mob took my whole power bar to kill and took forever. Zoned out... great a pack of wanderers at the zone out, died... starting to realize why I took a break for EQ. Devs seem to like to have little things in game to cause grief like this. One point to this, not hugh thing... why is there 1 aggro crab on Nek beach, right at the end of the dock? None of the other crabs are KoS. It does nothing but cause grief.

02-13-2006, 01:13 AM	#10
Moontayle Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 167	Actually Salgore, we're still up there for aggro management. We sort of share the top spot with Paladins since they have Amends but that's only if they have a killer DPS class to group with. Otherwise, Guardians have the most tools available to them to hold aggro and I can't remember the last time someone either my level or lower was able to pull aggro from me. __________________ Regards, Trayson, Guardian of Gnomish Marine Corps Writer in Progress Current Project: Daryn. 21k written out of 100k planned.

02-13-2006, 01:24 AM	#11
SniperKitty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 297	I only lose aggro with my paladin when I get lazy and don't use my taunts or the person with my amends-line spell is one isn't doing their job. ^_^ Kinda sucks at times, having to rely on someone else doing their job to maintain aggro, but in reality, we all rely on others to know their role to maintain aggro. __________________ ... in bed.

02-13-2006, 04:05 AM	#12
Blackdouglass Lord Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 16	SniperKitty wrote: Here's why: If I am spending my time taunting while my counterpart is doing equal amounts of damage, we are both spending power but he is doing the added damage. For example, I single target aggro for 800 hate, an offensive based target does damage for 800 which gives him 800 hate PLUS it has delivered damage. So in my opinion you have to give the taunting tank (Guardians) an advantage so that the others in his/her group can make up the DPS gap by pushing thier limit a little bit more (NOT AGGRO LOCK BY ANY MEANS). I dunno... 800 hate or 800 damage... they're pretty much equal. Both have a chance to be resisted or blocked/parried/deflected/dodged or just plain missed. In fact, the attacks have a worse chance of landing.__________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _I believe the point that was trying to be made here is that the dps gets 800 hate PLUS 800 dmg were as a taunt only get hate. Hate and dmg is always more effective. This doesn't even address the imbalance in Utility that helps in solo situations etc.. Now some might say that SOE never said that the sub-classes would all solo equally, but really think about that for a second. If you all tank equally, why then would anybody choose a defensive based tank since you will be the slowest soloer, a less desired off-tank, and perhaps the most inefficient XP group MT? That's the million dollar question for us Non-raiding Guards. Soloing shouldn't have any bearing on grouping or raiding. You will never, ever be able to balance anything if you include soloing. There's just no way you can balance that in all aspects. Now, your question about why people would choose to play a guardian... well... maybe they just like the idea behind the guardian. A solid tank in heavy plate with a huge shield and powerful weapon that can defend the group in case the poo hits the fan. Yes I believe that most guardians picked there class to wear heavy plate (which priests and other tanks wear as well) have a huge shield (Zerkers use tower shield as well) and a powerful weapon (well CA aren't weapon dependent so a few classes really get an advatage here). So I guess the issue comes down to precptions. Most of the guardians on this forum don't feel like an inmovable wall of steel any more. They are the most plain class around now. Before LU 13 they we at least aggro master now the are a fighter with not much to make them feel unique. Would a pally be as fun to play with the heals and divine dmg spell? Take that away and you have a guardian same mit as other plate classes, similiar HPs, no real dps.And as far as the dps compairsion goes what about all the 45 sec fights that guards are out dpsed in. How many fights break and a 30 sec mark? In a good group most of my fights are under 30 secs unless it's a boss mob. Balance on paper does not mean balance in game. This is a chaotic system and needs to be "balance" that way. Linear functions will not work imo. Message Edited by Blackdouglass on 02-12-200603:07 PM

02-13-2006, 07:49 AM	#13
Salgo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 90	Sniperkitty wrote:I disagree. You can't lower on single target aggro than you are on group aggro. Anything that effects the group also affects the single target. So everything you do to a group that puts you at #2 or #3 also applies to single targets. I am stating that other fighters that can out DPS us are better at holding single target aggro than Guardians. I have seen accounts on other boards that state the same thing. One stated (from a Bruiser) that a Bruiser going all out was keeping aggro from a Ranger going all out. This is not true for Guardians so my point stands. As for multi-mobs, perhaps when they nerfed Amends we are equal to Pally's I don't know for sure. But instead of nerfing all the time you would think that SOE would just fix ours. Did you not read the analysis of the guardian thread? It's very informative. Bruisers have better upfront dps, which does help with initial threat generation, but as proven by that thread, every thirty seconds, guardian dps matches that of bruiser dps. If the fight is only lasting thirty seconds, both tanks are doing an equal amount of damage. Actually I did read the analysis and although it is very good overall, it intentionally ignores auto attack DPS because he makes the assumption that with the same weapons we do the same damage. What he failed to acknowledge is that when we are fighting anything tough (non-raid) we will use our sword and board to get the extra avoidance. Bruisers however, have the avoidance inately and thus continue to Dual Wield (more DPS)! Even assuming that we are equal in DPS, given that most XP encounters last less than 30 seconds, Bruisers will out DPS us, kill the mob faster, and have more power left by doing it. This allows the group to gain more xp/hour and is more efficient. You have also neglected to mention the other part of the analysis which states that in order for a Guardian to do the same DPS (combat art wise and over time) that they must expend a lot more Mana (see the chart). Plus nobody uses all their CA's when MT for XP Group. You take our best 3-4 CA's and Bruiser's best CA's and you will begin to see the difference. I dunno... 800 hate or 800 damage... they're pretty much equal. Both have a chance to be resisted or blocked/parried/deflected/dodged or just plain missed. In fact, the attacks have a worse chance of landing. As someone has already mentioned, it is not equal. In effect, the Bruiser has generated the same hate, but has decreased the health of the target as well which is more efficient in XP Groups. To catch up, the Guard will have to hit a couple of CA's expending more power and now you start to see the power draining problem that we have as Guards. You already dps equal to a bruiser. What more do you want? Bruiser's dps is front loaded. Guardian dps builds up. That's the only difference. Please re-read the Guardian analysis that you mentioned above. Apparently you have read the portion that stated that with all our CA's we are equal to Bruisers over time and then stopped. You have neglected to read on where some of the problems are discussed. You also forgot that since we are all equal we need to be equal when not the MT. This is currently not the case because if you read ahead the comparison was made by omitting some of the Powerful Combat Arts that Bruiser would not use as MT but WOULD use when off-tanking. Besides this basically states that we do our Damage over Time...just ask the SK's, who build Hate over Time, and ask them which they think is better...front loaded or over time. And then run. Soloing shouldn't have any bearing on grouping or raiding. You will never, ever be able to balance anything if you include soloing. There's just no way you can balance that in all aspects. Now, your question about why people would choose to play a guardian... well... maybe they just like the idea behind the guardian. A solid tank in heavy plate with a huge shield and powerful weapon that can defend the group in case the poo hits the fan.I chose to make my paladin my main fighter character not because of any special abilties or whatever. I chose the paladin because I liked the idea of a holy knight. Since she's a fighter, I expect, no... I demand that I be able to tank all content. Sure, some content might be easier than others with certain fighters, but there should never ever be any content that one fighter can tank and no other can. There should never be any content that any fighter can't tank period.If there is, it becomes pointless to have any fighter in the game other than the one that can tank all the content. No, if SOE decided to balance tanking then they must also balance the other side of the equation or you give a CLEAR advantage to the other tanking classes. You make the statement, a demand, that "there should never be any content that any fighter can't tank period." Fine but then I demand that there should never be any mobs that one fighter can solo and the other can't. So if others are able to solo Yellow Con heroics, and this is deemed ok which it shouldn't, then all fighter classes should be able to. Seems fair right? By the way I noticed that you didn't roll a Guardian. May I ask why? I mean we wear the same armor, have more defense, and we can use bows. Perhaps, although you state it's the idea of a holy knight, it is the fact that they have better resists against magic, can heal, and rez. Nah...I'm sure that's not true in your case but my point is that for a lot of others they do come into play. Message Edited by Salgore on 02-12-200607:04 PM Message Edited by Salgore on 02-12-200607:06 PM

02-13-2006, 08:49 AM	#14
Crim001 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Somewhere in the middle of nowhere in So Cal Posts: 305	I have to agree with Salagore here..... I would very much like to be able to solo to the same extent that bruisers and monks can. While I do not want to achieve the same DPS, if we are all equal then we should all be able to accomplish roughly the same thing. If a bruiser can solo X mob in 20 seconds, then I want to solo it in say, 40 seconds, but leave with more health and power. Just a rough idea, probably could use much tweaking. BTW, the analysis thread shows CA damage only. It says that every 30 seconds, our combat arts reach the same amount of damage. But the bruiser gets bursts of DPS that are far more helpful in both the group setting and the solo setting. Most fights that I have seen usually don't last much longer then 30 seconds, and definitly far less in a solo fight. In another thread, or perhaps the same one, there are a few screenies of bruiser and guard adept III taunts. Both are exactly the same. Seems pretty bogus to me. As a taunt reliant tank, having another tank that isn't taunt reliant with the same degree of taunt really sucks. <--- Most of the opinions in here are just rough ideas, not completely and thoroughly thought out, so plz refrain from the serious flames.... __________________

02-13-2006, 08:57 AM	#15
Crim001 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Somewhere in the middle of nowhere in So Cal Posts: 305	Snikey wrote: I know combat was revamped a lot and many times, but I can't believe Guardians are not more upset about Gaige's one-man battle with marketing lititure as his arguement. FIGHTER = TANK = I should be raid tank. I've noticed that hes stopped posting here regularly, I guess we are nerfed enough for him now. After 8 months I just came back and was very disappointed in my group dependability, I'm 35 and could not even solo a TS giant, lvl 25 ^^^. Right before the first round of combat changes I was soloing them at 30. My gear and CAs are up to par all Feyiron, and app4 or above. A mob 10 levels below me... Around a month back, I was wandering around in EL (at 55)and happened to see a ranger guard duo taking the named badger on. Guard was 35 and ranger 37.....Natually guard lost aggro and ranger died, so I stepped in to tank until he got back. Within the first 10 seconds that the ranger had gotten back, he got aggro back as well. Quite a shock since I had laid quite a bit of aggro on him (this could be because i was using taunts only and not attacking, but still a shock). However, I now am a proud owner of a 21 monk and soon to be 20 bruiser with masters/legendaries that I soloed off names . I just couldn't fathom it. And this isn't a beg for DPS, I chose to be a guardian for the LACK of dps when they game first came out. I chose guardian for tanking ability. And apparently, our defining role was just too good and the rest of the tanks decided to complain about it until they got it as well. Since we are a pure tank with only one real skill, if you give that skill to the rest of the tanks.....it pretty much defeats our purpose. __________________

02-13-2006, 09:07 AM	#16
turbo_0 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3	All i can say is I played a guard to level 50, then played an alt berzerker to level 50, I now exclusivly play my Zerk, takes 10 times longer to kill any mob with guard, and realy NO noticable tanking dif, if anything i can mitigate batter with my Zerker, . I will hold onto my Guard of course hoping for positive Changes to him , wont hold my breath though, cause i always liked the idea of Playing the guard and was my first choice. I also play Shammy on EQ1 for 4 yrs. LOVED every second of it, very different roll in this game and couldnt handle the shamn roll here. Of course Shams where broken for ever to, hehe.

02-13-2006, 10:57 AM	#17
Snikey Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 135	I see I'm coming to terms with a lot of the new changes still... Every class have these issues solo? But still in the role of fighters / tanks... they stole something from us, I thought it would only take time to fix. Hasn't happened. Salgore wrote: If we all tank equally, then we must DPS equally. This doesn't even address the imbalance in Utility that helps in solo situations etc.. Now some might say that SOE never said that the sub-classes would all solo equally, but really think about that for a second. If you all tank equally, why then would anybody choose a defensive based tank since you will be the slowest soloer, a less desired off-tank, and perhaps the most inefficient XP group MT? Some might say..."You get more Defense". But what the heck does that mean since we all tank EQUALLY since LU13?? I still dont know why soloing has nothing to do with it, I see it as taking a purer form of combat. My lack of dps should = better defense(tanking) to offset. When soloing I should be able to end the fight what in a similar situation (life/power) when compared to other fighters. NOW, you say that wasn't a promise? What was the promise with solo content? Ok even if you dont agree there, in a group situation others in the group have to make up for my lack of dps... why should that NOT mean I have better aggro control than another fighter who actually contributes dps while tanking? SniperKitty wrote: I chose to make my paladin my main fighter character not because of any special abilties or whatever. I chose the paladin because I liked the idea of a holy knight. Since she's a fighter, I expect, no... I demand that I be able to tank all content. Sure, some content might be easier than others with certain fighters, but there should never ever be any content that one fighter can tank and no other can. There should never be any content that any fighter can't tank period. Call out the NERFING quick!!! There is content Guardians tank because of high HP!!!! To bad this means nothing lowers levels. SniperKitty wrote: You will never, ever be able to balance anything if you include soloing. There's just no way you can balance that in all aspects. I have heard this stated so many times on these boards. It seems to be the catch all argueement. It's not an argueement. IT'S AN EXCUSE. I call BS.

02-13-2006, 12:01 PM	#18
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Snikey wrote: I know combat was revamped a lot and many times, but I can't believe Guardians are not more upset about Gaige's one-man battle with marketing lititure as his arguement. FIGHTER = TANK = I should be raid tank. It wasn't just me, and SOE said fighter = tank, not I. I just held them to it. Thanks though, for all the credit. __________________

02-13-2006, 12:51 PM	#19
Snikey Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 135	Don't post on this thread please you've done enough thank you. It was marketing literature! What SOE did was let the marketing guys tell them how to run a game, with monk fan boys cheering them on... the same thing happened with SWG cambat, it's a mess. Either make 1 class that is called "Fighter" OR stop caterting to everyone crying equal but different!! It's BS! Guardians picked guardians to sacrafice everything else to be the best at one thing. Go do some more parse'ing and stop trolling on my thread. ** just to add 1 little bit... I'd love to see priest, mages, and scouts all scream EQUAL but different!! and see how much more mass exodus you could cause Gaige:p go roll up a Bard and start screaming about dps. Message Edited by Snikey on 02-12-200611:57 PM

02-13-2006, 01:29 PM	#20
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Snikey wrote: Don't post on this thread please you've done enough thank you. Don't bring me up then. I'm sure you can complain about your class without saying my name, right? __________________

02-13-2006, 03:53 PM	#21
Wabit Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 802	too much quoting i lost track of who was saying what =(... umm group agro doesn't always translate to single target argo... its the difference in the stances which put brawlers above guardians, its even more noticable on low yellow and below conning mobs... but i think the OP was more about soloing... in soloing guards are the worst tank class... in equal gear we'll always be the worst... its just not built into our class to be solo friendly... our off stance is really in need of some love... with just swapping out jewelry last night solo i had 500str in off stance (one str imbued ring, no str hex dolls)... and my jewelry isn't really anything to write home about, only one item of it takes more than one decent group to get (djinn ring), and by decent i mean can kill cazel... but you did pick one of the worst zones to try and solo... the mobs in there are really underconned... i soloed the whole expansion preLU13, even then i think the boss mob there was the hardest fight i ever had soloing (kite soloing the green x2 in icespire was easier)... it wasn't a debuff that hit ya, it was a pot trap... when i was doing that zone i learned to take some of the cure effect potions that merchants sell... __________________ Wabit- 80 guardian Trixr- 70 carpenter - Oasis (part time Warden) Thoog- 80 monk - Oasis

02-13-2006, 06:49 PM	#22
Blackdouglass Lord Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 16	Gaige wrote: Snikey wrote: I know combat was revamped a lot and many times, but I can't believe Guardians are not more upset about Gaige's one-man battle with marketing lititure as his arguement. FIGHTER = TANK = I should be raid tank. It wasn't just me, and SOE said fighter = tank, not I. I just held them to it. Thanks though, for all the credit. SOE also said in the begining that only tank wearing Vanguard Plate would be guardians. Why aren't you fighting that fight. Let's return the game to the one Prima made the guide for if that's what your vision is. According to the "Official" guide Guardians are "a walking tank, encased in layers of metal and impervious to attack" This was the infromation available at the time so I made my decision. I know SOE holds the right to alter the game at anytime but you can't hold on to one ideal because it is conveient for you. If you want the original vision it needs to be the original vision for ALL. So help us out man bring back the orignal vision and HOLD Sony to it.Thanks in advance for assisting Guardians in returning to thier roll of "a walking tank" Message Edited by Blackdouglass on 02-13-200605:50 AM

02-13-2006, 07:31 PM	#23
Rah Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 185	Current reality as I see it... Legendary (crafted) is baseline to even begin to be self reliable or a tank that will maintain some sort of reputation as being able to take the damage in the content that most players are looking to do. Focus on your armour first highest mit item to lowest. If you dont have time to raid your level raid content and take a stab at aquiring the drops you need to get the crafting done, then prepare to harvest yourself into oblivion (although the rate of drop is no were near as bad as you remember). If that does not look like a promising path then join the million of Ranger/Monk/Pet class alts and farm spawn (insert zone here) for the one out of 3 or so master chest. Then sell the Masters for the cash or trade to armor smiths that may want them (as alts are amok more so than ever). Adept 1 min taunt lines, your advantage is now with a group that will "work with you" in controling the entire encounter and the additional encounter adds better than your average I am a DPS god watch me go tank. A you gain in gear and combat arts the content will appear to become something you can manage. Until you watch a scout or two kite a ^^^ Heroic 4 levels higher or a brawler do the same standing in his face. Best advice is really take a hard look at your skills and figure out the best sequence to use them in for each encounter. the only other thing I can tell you is that there are those of us here who understand were you are coming from and will try to keep the arguments alive with raw data, supporting lines of argument and ignoring the trolls and post derailing masses that often post here (see your post results above). Rahge __________________ It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man. -Deep Thoughts, Jack handy

02-13-2006, 09:32 PM	#24
SniperKitty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 297	Snikey wrote: I have heard this stated so many times on these boards. It seems to be the catch all argueement. It's not an argueement. IT'S AN EXCUSE. I call BS. It's not an excuse. It's pure fact. As long as they try to pigeonhole each archetype into a specified role with different means of performing that role, there will never ever be balance based on what class can solo what and how. Never. It's pure idiocy to even attempt it. Trust me. I know. I re-wrote the entire class system for a NWN mod and spent months just fiddling around with things trying to get them balanced and just gave up.The only way to perfectly balance solo/group/raid is to give everyone the same AC / Mitigation / DPS. The only differences between a Caster and a Tank would be the amount of HP they have, the special tricks and utility they have, and their style of attacks. That is the only way you will have near perfect balance between the classes and solo/group/raid. __________________ ... in bed.

02-13-2006, 10:45 PM	#25
Snikey Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 135	Well, with how broken guardians are I'm all for screaming EQUAL BUT DIFFERENT and every little thing in game. Because it's a dumb argeement, and it's the one that made us broken. Guradians are not equal in anyway shape or form in soloing. Guardians are extremely lacking in douing. Guardians do not make this up in group/raid aggro control. Guardians do not make this up with tanking ability. We are ALL SAME AND EQUAL!

02-13-2006, 11:06 PM	#26
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	1. Guardians tank about as well as anybody else. 2. I only hold agro well when I have agro transferd to me from an Assassin or the like. My taunts work fine but my DPS lacks and my total taunt/DPS can not keep up with a DPS class going all out. I get lazy when I get agro transferd to me and actually have power to keep going and stuff. Guardians now have a requirement of an Assassin, Dirge or Swashbuckler be grouped with them for agro. Maybe Brigands also but I can;t remember if they have a transfer spell. 3. My DPS is less than half that most other fighters. I have parsed this and proven it over and over. 4. The fighters I can out DPS can heal themselves and have amends which pulls agro from somebody at their own choice. I can reduce somebody elses agro but I can not pull it to myself. When I'm grouped with two DPS classes and one is an Assasin I can do very well. Agro from the Assassin and I reduce agro from the otehr DPS class. 5. Guardians have no role other than to be tank which we can do equally well if we have an agro crutch from another class. We have broken utility, horrible DPS and just no other role to fill. Thanks SOE, your such nice people to give us all this. 6. Good thing I didn't read this whole thread. One thread with both Sniperkitty posting his unproveable and totally incorrect ideas and Gaiges little witticisms would have been to much for my fragile heart. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

02-14-2006, 09:20 AM	#27
Crim001 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Somewhere in the middle of nowhere in So Cal Posts: 305	SniperKitty wrote: It's not an excuse. It's pure fact. As long as they try to pigeonhole each archetype into a specified role with different means of performing that role, there will never ever be balance based on what class can solo what and how. Never. It's pure idiocy to even attempt it. Trust me. I know. I re-wrote the entire class system for a NWN mod and spent months just fiddling around with things trying to get them balanced and just gave up. And yet, this was certain peoples main argument to get guards nerfed in the first place though wasn't it?The only way to perfectly balance solo/group/raid is to give everyone the same AC / Mitigation / DPS. The only differences between a Caster and a Tank would be the amount of HP they have, the special tricks and utility they have, and their style of attacks. That is the only way you will have near perfect balance between the classes and solo/group/raid.Ok, just say that everyone was equal, and that the only difference would be in HP and utility. What would guards have over the rest? __________________

02-14-2006, 10:48 AM	#28
Theonol General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 16	Personally I have about given up on SOE on ever fixing guardians (so I wasted over a year of my time, ty SOE :smileymad: ) I started playing a zerker now and alot more fun imo. Message Edited by Theonolis on 02-14-200608:57 AM __________________

02-14-2006, 11:47 AM	#29
Snikey Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 135	Well I'm only 36... but dread re-rolling, hard enough to level up with the shrinking populace. If you wanted to raid tank as a monk go play Matrix or something. Equal but different my bottom.

02-14-2006, 09:48 PM	#30
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	Really, if you have a group of friends that you tank for then your OK. You can enjoy the game and just do your thing. That is the role Guardians were designed to fill. They didn't change our design with LU13, just changed all the other fighters. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.