Guardian Noise: If you've never posted before...

mastersard · 01-29-2006, 03:09 AM

To: Guardians

Friends, for a long time, almost a year, i read these forums and never posted. Only after LU13 did i realize the need for forum feedback on our class. Unfortunatly, it was only to show SOE my displeasure with the changes to our class.

Now, a new expansion is at our doorstep. SOE now has a record of making sweeping changes at release of such a project. As such, now is the time for our comunity, as fighters, warriors, and Guardians, to ask, to demand, attention be paid to our class.

If you have not already, sign up for the aility to post on these forums. It is quick and easy. Just click on the link that says "Join Free" and follow the steps. After that, you will have the ability to speak your mind on your class. This is not SOEs class, not even SOEs game. You are the customer, and as such, it is your right to ask SOE to give you the product you want.

And dont be mislead. SOE wants your input. They want your ideas. They want to know when your [Removed for Content] at them, too! Because the want your money! Tell them what you want, so they will have the tools to give it to you. SOE can't give you what you want unless they know exactly what that is.

We cant grumble and complain to ourselves, and in-game to others, if we do nothing to make ourselves heard. Dont just quit the game and go to Dungeons & Dragons, Vangard, Rising Forces. Give SOE the input, and the opportunity, to fix your class, and your game.

I'm not trying to encite a riot. I'm trying to fill this forum with posts from people who want the game to improve. If SOE really reads these forums, then let them read what you have to say. Right now, our forum, the Guardian forum, is filled with 2 kinds of posts. The kind where we Guardians are trying to discuss improvments to our class, and the kind where other classes are trying to refute, derail, and debunk our requests. We need to out number them.

Right now, we dont. As such, we are the least effective fighter for 99% of the game.

Nemesi · 01-29-2006, 03:52 AM

>I'm trying to fill this forum with posts from people who want the game to improvewhile i'm not trying to be critical of your motivations or intentions, you'll have to look back at board performance from EQ1 going back to 1999. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing on message boards doesn't work. if you're trying ot make a compelling case for sony to review you'll need to come up with parses and statistical evidence to make an effective case.sometime after the release of the first EQ expansion, rangers had some issues. they made a very effective case of their issues to the point the rest of the game knew their class sucked. they didn't get fixed, but everybody knew they sucked and quit grouping with them.my advice, learn from the rangers of old and don't do that SMILEY

mastersard · 01-29-2006, 04:20 AM

Well, i'm on a real timeline here. The KoS expansion comes out a day after the most anticipated MMO of the year. Good marketing, but could backfire.

EQLive had no real competition. EQ2 is operating in the most competitave PC game market ever. Where did disgruntled Rangers from EQ have to go? Counterstrike? Diablo? Nah, they'd re-roll a better, more balanced class in EQ. DOaC was populated almost 100% by unhappy refugees of the orijinal Norath.

Disgruntled Guardians can jump ship to any of a dozen games. SOE has got to wake up and smell the subscriptions burning. They really dont want another SWG. That was most likely the most anticipated MMO to date, and will be rivaled only by the now-in-development MMO Star Trek. Yet look at it now. Only the most hardcore, die hard players are there. Last time i logged in, servers were deserted, and the economy was flat out busted.

EQ2 was aimed at casual-to-semi-hardcore gamers. A little more serious than the WoW playerbase, and less volitile (less churn). But they've got to pay attention to market changes. And they have to learn that a dissatified customer is a shopping-for-a-new-product customer.

Lots of guardians are shopping. Patiently waiting for their game of choice to release, and they'll jump ship.

A lot of people, mostly end-game players, feel the game is too easy. Play WoW. Easy. Little kid easy. Yet it's blowing EQ2 out of the water. Why? Because their's a helluva lot more kids playing MMOs now. Its because companies like mine are marketing broadband internet to more areas. Is the answer to make EQ2 easier? Maybe. Will it cost SOE a few customers? Sure. But if the next younger demographic is tapped into, SOE could stand to gain tenfold the customers back.

What does that have to do with Guardians? Right now, they're broken. Not totally useless, but not near where it should be as a class. We need improvements. All i'm asking is that a few more of our unhappy community log in here and tell SOE how they feel. KoS has a budget. I want more of that budget to be spent on bringing Guardians out of retirement, and into the range of playability they deserve.

Nemesi · 01-29-2006, 06:10 AM

>Where did disgruntled Rangers from EQ have to go?

You don't have to go anywhere! If the game isn't fun, you stop playing.

>Disgruntled Guardians can jump ship to any of a dozen games.

Yes, yes they can. I'm seeing a lot of disgruntled guardians posting on this board instead. My free advice... don't do the bitter, disgruntled bit. Generate logs, parses, and unbiased technical analysis.

>SOE has got to wake up and smell the subscriptions burning.

They're only going to see a subscription problem when there is one.

>EQ2 was aimed at casual-to-semi-hardcore gamers. A little more serious than the WoW playerbase...

i won't draw this conclusion, i haven't seen the SOE marketing plan.

>Lots of guardians are shopping. Patiently waiting for their game of choice to release, and they'll jump ship.

Then they jump.. my game play experience isn't related to what players outside my guild do or do not do. At best, its an idle threat and there isn't much of a compelling reason to do anything from sony's point of view. The dev teams are staffed on the expansion...which people have already paid for. The odds staff gets reallocated because people are waving their hands around what other players may or may not be doing isn't a good bet.

>All i'm asking is that a few more of our unhappy community log in here and tell SOE how they feel.

I understand. Actually i'm on your side here, but i'm telling you feelings and perceptions aren't how you evaluate change in a game like EQ or WoW.

Personally, i two box. Worst mistake in my subscription-i run a guardian and templar! Sony isn't changing the classes because i'm complaining, or because i ended billing for both accounts today. They're far more likely to pay attention to a set of players who show up with a fair amount of statistical analysis to compare the classes. If you're not a stats person fine. Folks need to set something up-there are tanks across the archetype who are and have a vested interested in making sure tank balance is within reason.

as sony for a repository for log storage on the board so folks can parse relevant stuff.

Kain Hammersmith · 01-29-2006, 10:59 AM

Nemesion wrote:>I'm trying to fill this forum with posts from people who want the game to improvewhile i'm not trying to be critical of your motivations or intentions, you'll have to look back at board performance from EQ1 going back to 1999. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing on message boards doesn't work. if you're trying ot make a compelling case for sony to review you'll need to come up with parses and statistical evidence to make an effective case.sometime after the release of the first EQ expansion, rangers had some issues. they made a very effective case of their issues to the point the rest of the game knew their class sucked. they didn't get fixed, but everybody knew they sucked and quit grouping with them.my advice, learn from the rangers of old and don't do that

Have you read many of the Guard threads? There is 2 threads right now with parses. I cant count how many have came and gone that were filled with ideas on how to improve our class. But to be honest I dont care anymore, I give up.

Peace, I'm out!

Grumpy_Warrior_01 · 01-29-2006, 06:35 PM

Mastersardis, I don't disagree with what you're saying here, and I also believe players should voice themselves, at least to be heard by each other if not by game developers. But I expect the expansion is far too close now to campaign for anything new that hasn't already been in the works for weeks, even if 1000 guardian players logged into the forums today with the exact same complaint.

From what I can see, the most sweeping change already planned that will affect us eventually is the fragmenting of the archetype system which up to now has dictated similarity in abilities between fighters, and as a result, similarity in roles. Even though every EQ2 player will forever refer to fighters, priests, mages and scouts, I think the archtetype system will continue to have less and less teeth over time. Yes it appears to be becoming more like EQ1 in that regard, and we do tend to resist change even when it's good for us. I'm not saying the game developers have some grand master plan that will make every one of us thrilled to log in our guardians again, but I do think the road is being paved for each class to branch away from the others as an entirely unique set of abilities, and consequently distinct roles.

sick720 · 01-31-2006, 01:57 AM

as for the OP, i doubt your post will come to anything but i wholeheartedly agree with the spirit of what your saying, and maybe, just maybe some day guardians will once again be "balanced" until then i think ill go back to eq1 as it seems to be more fun, and yeah, i know its another soe game, but its better than the other choices out there atm and at least my main char hasent been nerfed into oblivion.<***REMOVED FLAME BAIT***>

Message Edited by Echgar on 01-31-200606:42 AM

Echgar · 01-31-2006, 07:48 PM

Folks, I've just removed a bunch of personal attacks and flamebait from this thread. Please keep it constructive!

Nemesi · 01-31-2006, 09:19 PM

>Have you read many of the Guard threads? There is 2 threads right now with parsesyes, there were TWO when i wrote the post, and a third with some pretty good material was added since.two or three posts of detailed information doesn't compare too well with two or three hundred emotional posts of whining.

Wasuna · 01-31-2006, 09:30 PM

Echgar wrote:Folks, I've just removed a bunch of personal attacks and flamebait from this thread. Please keep it constructive!

Fix the Guardian class and you won't have to come here and moderate so heavily. I assure you there is a connection between the unbalanced Guardian class and the complaints and arguments here on this forum.

Wabit · 02-01-2006, 03:55 AM

Wasuna wrote:
Echgar wrote:Folks, I've just removed a bunch of personal attacks and flamebait from this thread. Please keep it constructive!
Fix the Guardian class and you won't have to come here and moderate so heavily. I assure you there is a connection between the unbalanced Guardian class and the complaints and arguments here on this forum.

don't feed the mods

mastersard · 02-01-2006, 10:14 AM

lol, actually, if it gets more people posting here, then yea, vent, rant, express, whatever.

Let the mods delete and censuer. SOE will see we're mad, and that's thepoint.

01-29-2006, 10:59 AM	#5
Kain Hammersmith Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 73	Nemesion wrote:>I'm trying to fill this forum with posts from people who want the game to improvewhile i'm not trying to be critical of your motivations or intentions, you'll have to look back at board performance from EQ1 going back to 1999. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing on message boards doesn't work. if you're trying ot make a compelling case for sony to review you'll need to come up with parses and statistical evidence to make an effective case.sometime after the release of the first EQ expansion, rangers had some issues. they made a very effective case of their issues to the point the rest of the game knew their class sucked. they didn't get fixed, but everybody knew they sucked and quit grouping with them.my advice, learn from the rangers of old and don't do that Have you read many of the Guard threads? There is 2 threads right now with parses. I cant count how many have came and gone that were filled with ideas on how to improve our class. But to be honest I dont care anymore, I give up. Peace, I'm out! __________________

01-31-2006, 07:48 PM	#8
Echgar Forum Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,004	Folks, I've just removed a bunch of personal attacks and flamebait from this thread. Please keep it constructive! __________________ \|\| Forum Rules \|\| TRACKERS: Community \|\| Tech \|\| Dev \|\|

01-31-2006, 09:30 PM	#10
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	Echgar wrote:Folks, I've just removed a bunch of personal attacks and flamebait from this thread. Please keep it constructive! Fix the Guardian class and you won't have to come here and moderate so heavily. I assure you there is a connection between the unbalanced Guardian class and the complaints and arguments here on this forum. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

02-01-2006, 03:55 AM	#11
Wabit Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 802	Wasuna wrote: Echgar wrote:Folks, I've just removed a bunch of personal attacks and flamebait from this thread. Please keep it constructive! Fix the Guardian class and you won't have to come here and moderate so heavily. I assure you there is a connection between the unbalanced Guardian class and the complaints and arguments here on this forum. don't feed the mods __________________ Wabit- 80 guardian Trixr- 70 carpenter - Oasis (part time Warden) Thoog- 80 monk - Oasis

01-29-2006, 03:09 AM	#1
mastersard Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 403	To: Guardians Friends, for a long time, almost a year, i read these forums and never posted. Only after LU13 did i realize the need for forum feedback on our class. Unfortunatly, it was only to show SOE my displeasure with the changes to our class. Now, a new expansion is at our doorstep. SOE now has a record of making sweeping changes at release of such a project. As such, now is the time for our comunity, as fighters, warriors, and Guardians, to ask, to demand, attention be paid to our class. If you have not already, sign up for the aility to post on these forums. It is quick and easy. Just click on the link that says "Join Free" and follow the steps. After that, you will have the ability to speak your mind on your class. This is not SOEs class, not even SOEs game. You are the customer, and as such, it is your right to ask SOE to give you the product you want. And dont be mislead. SOE wants your input. They want your ideas. They want to know when your [Removed for Content] at them, too! Because the want your money! Tell them what you want, so they will have the tools to give it to you. SOE can't give you what you want unless they know exactly what that is. We cant grumble and complain to ourselves, and in-game to others, if we do nothing to make ourselves heard. Dont just quit the game and go to Dungeons & Dragons, Vangard, Rising Forces. Give SOE the input, and the opportunity, to fix your class, and your game. I'm not trying to encite a riot. I'm trying to fill this forum with posts from people who want the game to improve. If SOE really reads these forums, then let them read what you have to say. Right now, our forum, the Guardian forum, is filled with 2 kinds of posts. The kind where we Guardians are trying to discuss improvments to our class, and the kind where other classes are trying to refute, derail, and debunk our requests. We need to out number them. Right now, we dont. As such, we are the least effective fighter for 99% of the game.

01-29-2006, 03:52 AM	#2
Nemesi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 18	>I'm trying to fill this forum with posts from people who want the game to improvewhile i'm not trying to be critical of your motivations or intentions, you'll have to look back at board performance from EQ1 going back to 1999. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing on message boards doesn't work. if you're trying ot make a compelling case for sony to review you'll need to come up with parses and statistical evidence to make an effective case.sometime after the release of the first EQ expansion, rangers had some issues. they made a very effective case of their issues to the point the rest of the game knew their class sucked. they didn't get fixed, but everybody knew they sucked and quit grouping with them.my advice, learn from the rangers of old and don't do that

01-29-2006, 04:20 AM	#3
mastersard Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 403	Well, i'm on a real timeline here. The KoS expansion comes out a day after the most anticipated MMO of the year. Good marketing, but could backfire. EQLive had no real competition. EQ2 is operating in the most competitave PC game market ever. Where did disgruntled Rangers from EQ have to go? Counterstrike? Diablo? Nah, they'd re-roll a better, more balanced class in EQ. DOaC was populated almost 100% by unhappy refugees of the orijinal Norath. Disgruntled Guardians can jump ship to any of a dozen games. SOE has got to wake up and smell the subscriptions burning. They really dont want another SWG. That was most likely the most anticipated MMO to date, and will be rivaled only by the now-in-development MMO Star Trek. Yet look at it now. Only the most hardcore, die hard players are there. Last time i logged in, servers were deserted, and the economy was flat out busted. EQ2 was aimed at casual-to-semi-hardcore gamers. A little more serious than the WoW playerbase, and less volitile (less churn). But they've got to pay attention to market changes. And they have to learn that a dissatified customer is a shopping-for-a-new-product customer. Lots of guardians are shopping. Patiently waiting for their game of choice to release, and they'll jump ship. A lot of people, mostly end-game players, feel the game is too easy. Play WoW. Easy. Little kid easy. Yet it's blowing EQ2 out of the water. Why? Because their's a helluva lot more kids playing MMOs now. Its because companies like mine are marketing broadband internet to more areas. Is the answer to make EQ2 easier? Maybe. Will it cost SOE a few customers? Sure. But if the next younger demographic is tapped into, SOE could stand to gain tenfold the customers back. What does that have to do with Guardians? Right now, they're broken. Not totally useless, but not near where it should be as a class. We need improvements. All i'm asking is that a few more of our unhappy community log in here and tell SOE how they feel. KoS has a budget. I want more of that budget to be spent on bringing Guardians out of retirement, and into the range of playability they deserve.

01-29-2006, 06:10 AM	#4
Nemesi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 18	>Where did disgruntled Rangers from EQ have to go? You don't have to go anywhere! If the game isn't fun, you stop playing. >Disgruntled Guardians can jump ship to any of a dozen games. Yes, yes they can. I'm seeing a lot of disgruntled guardians posting on this board instead. My free advice... don't do the bitter, disgruntled bit. Generate logs, parses, and unbiased technical analysis. >SOE has got to wake up and smell the subscriptions burning. They're only going to see a subscription problem when there is one. >EQ2 was aimed at casual-to-semi-hardcore gamers. A little more serious than the WoW playerbase... i won't draw this conclusion, i haven't seen the SOE marketing plan. >Lots of guardians are shopping. Patiently waiting for their game of choice to release, and they'll jump ship. Then they jump.. my game play experience isn't related to what players outside my guild do or do not do. At best, its an idle threat and there isn't much of a compelling reason to do anything from sony's point of view. The dev teams are staffed on the expansion...which people have already paid for. The odds staff gets reallocated because people are waving their hands around what other players may or may not be doing isn't a good bet. >All i'm asking is that a few more of our unhappy community log in here and tell SOE how they feel. I understand. Actually i'm on your side here, but i'm telling you feelings and perceptions aren't how you evaluate change in a game like EQ or WoW. Personally, i two box. Worst mistake in my subscription-i run a guardian and templar! Sony isn't changing the classes because i'm complaining, or because i ended billing for both accounts today. They're far more likely to pay attention to a set of players who show up with a fair amount of statistical analysis to compare the classes. If you're not a stats person fine. Folks need to set something up-there are tanks across the archetype who are and have a vested interested in making sure tank balance is within reason. as sony for a repository for log storage on the board so folks can parse relevant stuff.

01-29-2006, 06:35 PM	#6
Grumpy_Warrior_01 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 528	Mastersardis, I don't disagree with what you're saying here, and I also believe players should voice themselves, at least to be heard by each other if not by game developers. But I expect the expansion is far too close now to campaign for anything new that hasn't already been in the works for weeks, even if 1000 guardian players logged into the forums today with the exact same complaint. From what I can see, the most sweeping change already planned that will affect us eventually is the fragmenting of the archetype system which up to now has dictated similarity in abilities between fighters, and as a result, similarity in roles. Even though every EQ2 player will forever refer to fighters, priests, mages and scouts, I think the archtetype system will continue to have less and less teeth over time. Yes it appears to be becoming more like EQ1 in that regard, and we do tend to resist change even when it's good for us. I'm not saying the game developers have some grand master plan that will make every one of us thrilled to log in our guardians again, but I do think the road is being paved for each class to branch away from the others as an entirely unique set of abilities, and consequently distinct roles.

01-31-2006, 01:57 AM	#7
sick720 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 47	as for the OP, i doubt your post will come to anything but i wholeheartedly agree with the spirit of what your saying, and maybe, just maybe some day guardians will once again be "balanced" until then i think ill go back to eq1 as it seems to be more fun, and yeah, i know its another soe game, but its better than the other choices out there atm and at least my main char hasent been nerfed into oblivion.<*REMOVED FLAME BAIT*> Message Edited by Echgar on 01-31-200606:42 AM

01-31-2006, 09:19 PM	#9
Nemesi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 18	>Have you read many of the Guard threads? There is 2 threads right now with parsesyes, there were TWO when i wrote the post, and a third with some pretty good material was added since.two or three posts of detailed information doesn't compare too well with two or three hundred emotional posts of whining.

02-01-2006, 10:14 AM	#12
mastersard Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 403	lol, actually, if it gets more people posting here, then yea, vent, rant, express, whatever. Let the mods delete and censuer. SOE will see we're mad, and that's thepoint.