Damage Comparison Between Guardian and Bruiser --Updated-- - Page 2

mastersard · 01-03-2006, 10:47 PM

Our damage is pitiful. You can't compute our DPS on paper, folks. In order to hold agro, i've got to spam taunts(due to taunt resists). That leaves no time and no power to use CAs. When not in MT mode, my damage is still pitiful, and after only a few CAs, i'm oop again. The issue is that Guards simply dont have the auto attack or CA damage required to be effective in any DPS role, even if it is to fill in for the lack of a scout/mage. Yes it looks good on paper, but it is horribly implemented in-game. Why is it such a hard thing to accept? What is so game breaking about a Guardian doing equal DPS to a Monk/Bruiser?

Because Guards are a specialized tank? Then we should tank better than a brawler.

If we're not a specialized tank (which we're not) then we should have equal DPS and utility.

Guardian being balanced to brawler classes does not threaten any brawler class. It only makes us viable in a non-MT role. We don't want to be "the Best Tank," but we must be allowed to have a secondary, non-tank role. Being able to take damage for a group member is tanking utility. It's just about useless if the tank is doing their job. Give us something that makes a group want us for something other than as MT.

Danan · 01-03-2006, 10:57 PM

mastersardis wrote:

Our damage is pitiful. You can't compute our DPS on paper, folks. In order to hold agro, i've got to spam taunts(due to taunt resists). That leaves no time and no power to use CAs. When not in MT mode, my damage is still pitiful, and after only a few CAs, i'm oop again. The issue is that Guards simply dont have the auto attack or CA damage required to be effective in any DPS role, even if it is to fill in for the lack of a scout/mage. Yes it looks good on paper, but it is horribly implemented in-game. Why is it such a hard thing to accept? What is so game breaking about a Guardian doing equal DPS to a Monk/Bruiser?

Because Guards are a specialized tank? Then we should tank better than a brawler.

If we're not a specialized tank (which we're not) then we should have equal DPS and utility.

Guardian being balanced to brawler classes does not threaten any brawler class. It only makes us viable in a non-MT role. We don't want to be "the Best Tank," but we must be allowed to have a secondary, non-tank role. Being able to take damage for a group member is tanking utility. It's just about useless if the tank is doing their job. Give us something that makes a group want us for something other than as MT.

If you gave the Guard the same damage as a brawler the ability to hold agro would increase well beyond any other fighter class giving the Guardian a HUGE edge as a tank.

The way that the offensive stances work at the moment it is entirely possible to tank while in offensive stance, in my oppinion this is what needs to change, maybe then the stances can add more damage.

Danter · 01-03-2006, 11:20 PM

I have a 53 Guardian and a 60 Bruiser. My main was used to a Guardian before LU 13. Then, I shelved him and rolled a Bruiser because I didn't like the path that Guards were heading.

First, some of your skill comparisons are wrong.

Pound should not be compared to Perfect Strike, it should be compared to Overpower because they're both on 10s recast timers.

Staggering Rush and Iron Fist are good to compare, but you fail to mention Staggering Rush is on a 20s recast timer where Iron Fist is on a 30s recast.

Comparing Sonic Fists with Quelling Strike isn't good either. Sonic Fists requires you to be at least 15m to use and is currently bugged, where it doesn't work 50% of the time.

You also seem to completly ignore the worth of debuffs.

That being said, Bruisers out damage Guardians by a significant amount. The reason is not because of the innate damage that the skills do. I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Bruisers outdamage Guardians significantly because the Guardian Offensive Stance sucks and does not have a proc or haste attached to it.

In a heroic encounter, my offensive stance will proc 3-5 times per battle at about 350 damage. On multi mobs, it's about 5-10 times. When you add all that up, that's a significant amount of damage. Also, Quarrel adds a decent amount of damage as well.

Guardians also lack multi hit CAs that Beserkers, Monks, and Bruisers get that help proc their weapons. These CAs are essential in dealing a lot of DPS. I don't think Guardians need any multi hit CAs because they'd be overpowered if they had them.

In order to balance Guardians, SOE needs to give them haste or a proc on the offensive stance. Until then, the DPS gap will continue to be really wide.

Wabit · 01-03-2006, 11:29 PM

i miss my haste from pre-LU13... that was a noticeable difference... heck 20% haste shield and 1H i do more dps than with a 2h 15% haste... haven't tried DW yet...

Wabit

uux · 01-03-2006, 11:40 PM

You can look up the numbers associated with different combat arts of varying quality using a program found at http://www.eq2idb.com. Most of the screenshots won't help with a comparison (as the combat art shots tend to be red). You can use the Copy Link button on the bottom to paste yourself a link (ctrl+v in a chat window) to the item in game. Cap out your str and click the link to see what it can do. This will only work for arts belonging to your class as others will still be red to you. Most of the combat arts from app2 to master1 are in there. Careful reading the descriptions of arts belonging to other classes as well. I know for the berserker skills some in game descriptions are not accurate.

uux · 01-04-2006, 12:49 AM

Regarding a target limit on Goading Assault, AOE target limits were changed in LU#16. From the patch notes: - All area-of-effect spells that affect only a single encounter no longer have a target limit. - All area-of-effect spells that do not target a specific encounter now affect a maximum of 8 targets. So Goading Assault could hit more than 8 opponents.

mastersard · 01-04-2006, 12:54 AM

Danterus wrote:

Bruisers outdamage Guardians significantly because the Guardian Offensive Stance sucks and does not have a proc or haste attached to it.

Compare the DPS unbuffed, auto-attack only. Bruiser/Monk is 3 times the damage of Guardians. In offensive stance, buffed, again, 3 times the damage. In defensive stance (which I'd never use) again, 3 times the damage. Now add buffs, stance(s), CAs, all out damage. It's more of a disparity!

Base damage on the Guardian needs to be raised. YES our offensive stance sucks, but the problem is much, much deeper. Guardian as a class has not been developed beyond the EQ1 Warrior, i.e. we are still a specialised tank in a hybrid tank's game.

Beyond that, SOE needs to find us a niche, a role that can define the Guardian when he must operate out of the tanking role.

Owa · 01-04-2006, 01:41 AM

Another quick question to the Guardians and sorry it's probably on the wrong thread but - DPS and 'utility' aside for the moment - do you think you are better able to deal with powerful mobs than Brawlers? I'm referring to orange and red heroics and epics of all sizes.

My impression is that we (Brawlers) tank perfectly well for the most part - but when it comes to the really tough mobs Guardians are who most people want standing out in front [Removed for Content] off the dragon.

Stroicthe · 01-04-2006, 01:42 AM

Ok, there are some very large misconceptions about a Bruiser's ability to absorb damage that need to be addressed. Let me give you a firsthand example. I don't know how many of you raid high end content, but for those of you who do, we were raiding the Court of Al'Afaz. Now the majority of the zone is not to much trouble, the named can be frisky but it's nothing too tough. Then comes the Black Queen, a 65 ^^^ x4 epic. Now this is a very tough mob, and I was called on to tank. Now with 3/4 fabled, capped str/agi/stamina, +420ish mitigation from an SK, Master 1 mitigation and avoidance buffs(which, by the way, only last 3 minutes on a 3 minute cooldown, and do a very noticable amount of unpreventable damage), T6 rare mitigation, hitpoint, and stamina potions, Master 1 Porcupine active, and with 9k HP and 80% avoidance, +I pulled her and her two adds. Now the distance I needed to pull back to, the corner on the left for those familiar, was about a 2 second pull tops. I was dead before I even touched the wall. Perhaps a lucky special attack I thought. No, was simply two auto attacks from the Queen, and 2 from her adds. 80% Avoidance indeed. So we wipe and get formed up again. I'm then subbed out for a Guardian. Pulls her with no trouble and tanks her all the way to 40% HP before his brain exploded from her special. During the entire burn down to 40%, aggro slipped once, with us burning pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard. And by the way, he had 60% avoidance, in Cobalt, with around 2000 more mitigation than I. Funny thing about mitigation, It’s not based on dumb luck. Now I fully understand that Guardians do in fact have issues that need to be addressed, such as power consumption. But to honestly even suggest that Bruisers tank as well, or even better than a plate tank makes me want to ignore the rest of your comments. Bruisers tank on luck, and with no self HP buff, and no way to deal with two, three, or four back to back hits for 4k, plus AoEs for about the same amount, it's not even close. Also do remember that Bruisers have very low AoE hate generation. Savage Blows is a 1:30 minute recast. After its gone, we have the following for AoE hate generation; A blue background AoE for an average of around 300-400 damage, and a single AE taunt on a 20 second timer with the exact same taunt amount as yours. Tank the scarab ring events in Poets Palace as a Bruiser and then tell me we have better AE aggro than Guardians. Now it's my understanding, that a class with superb group buffs that rival many healers, better AE hate generation than at least three fighters, best damage soaking capabilities in the game, and more than enough hate per second to hold single target aggro, also want damage equal to Bruisers, who sacrifice all of the above for said damage. Interesting. Also, the comparison for the damage and hate between our skill lines is so skewed it’s beyond redemption. Did you compare at 350 Strength? Did you match up the quality levels? No, making the whole comparison pointless. Not to mention the fact we need to be flanking for Kidney Punch, as well as the fact that many of our skills not only have a very wide gap between min and max damage, but also have a low hit chance, such as Savage Blows or Crushing Fury. Now I am more than happy to discuss something like this, but only if you bring reliable, solid data to debate with. Furthermore, when you picked a Guardian, just exactly what role did you think you would be playing? A hulking wall of steel with damage equal to that of classes who give up defense for the same output? I'm not saying your DPS doesn't need a boost, but really, think about what your actually asking for. I would hope many of you picked Guardian to be tanking some of the hardest single target encounters in the game, as well as, ya know, guarding your team with a plethora of buffs and skills to lessen and spread damage. And guess what? You do these things wonderfully. You also seem to want our utility. Very well, take it. You can have my mez, my fear, my broken teleport, and even my Stone Deaf, but in return I get your group defense buff, group melee skill buff, massive group HP buff, and Sentry. Utility isn't looking so good now. Also, a quick note about Guardians as they are leveling. I was 52 when our current Guardian created his toon. By the time I was 60, in the span of about 2 weeks, he was 50. He trioed the whole way. Appears to me he wasn’t slowing things down very much. Look, I’m not trying to be a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] here, but when you are screaming for a nerf when you have no idea what the hell your talking about, it irks me a bit. I am more than open to questions, rebuttals or outright flames but please be respectful enough to keep it out of my original thread, I don’t want to see it locked because of childish arguments and flames. Thank you, Dof

Message Edited by Stroicthe on 01-03-2006 01:43 PM

Gaige · 01-04-2006, 01:44 AM

annaspider wrote:

My impression is that we (Brawlers) tank perfectly well for the most part - but when it comes to the really tough mobs Guardians are who most people want standing out in front [Removed for Content] off the dragon.

Its funny, but against orange epics... that's where fighter selection matters the least. All that matters is HP and taunting ability. Nothing else. I've tanked a couple orange epics and it wasn't too hard really.

As for this wishful thinking about role reversal due to the revamping of the newbie game. I wouldn't hold your breath. They are allowing new players to jump in and be a shadowknight as soon as they can with shadowknight type spells and a shadowknight type feel. They are doing away with the blah I'm a fighter, blah I'm a crusader FINALLY I'm a shadowknight type of lower end game.

Where in all of that do you see the role of the shadowknight changing, simply because you can be a shadowknight sooner?

Vormulac · 01-04-2006, 01:59 AM

Dananeb wrote:

Threat a minute comparison

Guardians

Skill                                 Threat(max)            Recast                 Threat/min

Confront                          1276                      8.0                      9570

Protect                            681                        20                       2043

Unforgiven strike             613                        10                       3678

Goading assault               639                        30                       1278

Total                                                                                        16579

Bruisers

Pressure                          1276                      8.0                      9570

Abuse                             681                        20                       2043

Total                                                                                         11613

Now I didn’t include either MD or the Bruiser Quarrel as these are the reactive/proccing threat increasing skill, and the Bruiser only procs at 25%(124max dmg and 194 threat) while the Guard is 50%(327 threat). I am assuming that these are balanced through damage and threat given. I also didn’t include the skill Reinforcement as this is probably an emergency skill like Rescue.

Even without MD and Reinforcement the difference is close to 5k in favor of the Guard. So honestly what you didn’t get in Dps you did get in pure threat.

I agree this doesn’t fix the problem of what a guardian has as a secondary tank/dps in groups or raids. But as far as keeping agro the guardian is making up for the damage through pure threat.

Is that why i can put all taunts down on a mob and our bruiser can yank it off without rescue at any given time, even if i have been taunting for 2min solid. Pure threat doesnt even work correctly dps is the only way to truly hold agro. Which is sad cause i really don't want to be a dps tank i just want to be a tank and for all its worth i feel i do that pretty well. (currently mt'd everything we have faced including 4th floor PP:return)

But to truly hold agro on most fights i have to add in procs from other classes and push my dps to 400+ even when half the raid is on auto attack/ using nukes sparingly.

Vormulac Unsleep

Guild Leader Shattered Moon

Neriak

Wasuna · 01-04-2006, 02:24 AM

Stroicthe wrote:
Ok, there are ...please be respectful enough to keep it out of my original thread, I don’t want to see it locked because of childish arguments and flames.

Thank you,

Dof

Message Edited by Stroicthe on 01-03-2006 01:43 PM

I didn't scream for a nerf. The fact that you were selected for MT shows that bruisers can and indeed are selected for this. You had a bad round it sounds like. To bad the oragne and up stuff just basically ignores avoidance and mitigation and just smacks people around. I know others have posted thathere over and over that when you get higher and higher it only comes down to HP's really. Just read this thread and you'll see others say that.

The fact is that Guardians are geared and skilled for ONE (1) thing and that is to tank. We have no other role. Fine, if we are only tanks then from here on I demand that we always be main tank. I doubt any of you other fighters would want that but that is what your arguing for. Most of us Guardians are asking for us to be equal which we are not.

As for your friend, I have many that are able to do just that. They have free time and the will to do it. Tank, healer and DPS. Guardian to tank, healer to heal, DPS to make things dead. Now look who was the tank and you'll see where the Guardian is always at or is notincluded.

Colossaltitan · 01-04-2006, 02:28 AM

Add in Quarrel Proc's & Engulf procs... ohh, and... we about 100k ahead of Guardians.

Whats your point? Nerf Bruisers?

Make a solid post of reasonable things.
(AKA SAY YOU WANT MORE DPS AS A GUARDIAN!)

Veshtan · 01-04-2006, 02:29 AM

The basic difference, from all that i have read, and all that i have experience comes down to this. Brawlers are much better all around fighters for doing the average deal. THey have more DPS and their ability to taunt on normal con-mobs is more then adequate to get the job done. There are a variety of reasons for this, there's little need to lay them all out, it's been done before.

What the Guardian truly excels at is raid level content. As Gaige and Anna have pointed out, when it comes to epic mobs, the Guards are still considered the go-to guys (or gals). If you're okay knowing that this is your nitch and that's what you want to play for, knowing that you're not going to be nearly as good at the rest of the game, then make a Guardian. If you're an average Joe who plays casually, likes to solo some, and thinks raiding is something you do to the fridge, then a Guardian is probably not for you. At least not in it's current form. Unfortunately i am one of those average joes, so the Guardian is no longer for me. I'm not whining...i probably have done enough of that, it's not worth wasting the breath anymore. SOE has their "vision" just like with EQ1, and what some people want just isn't going to work in that vision.

Like i said, as long as you know what you want and you're okay with knowing that being a Guard is going to make you much more one dimensional than most other classes, then be my guest, play. Just remember this....Gaige isn't nearly as horrible a person as some Guard's say he is....and his horns and devil's tail aren't really THAT long :smileywink:

(It's probably valid to point out that if you think your class sucks, you're going to make it suck even more then it probably really does simply because you're so unhappy with it that you're not really putting forth the effort to play it as well as it can possibly be played)

RafaelSmith · 01-04-2006, 02:59 AM

Its true we have to look at the whole class (dps,tanking,utitlity) etc when discussing balance but one also has to consider the whole game...more importantly what we do the majority of the time we play. Whatever tanking advantage I as Gaurdian may have..its required/used ALOT less than the extra DPS and/or Utiliity the other fighters have. If a Bruiser can tank 90% of the content just as well or better than a Guard...yet do 3x the DPS of a Guard or provide far more buffs 100% of the time...then who is underpowered?...who is the better fighter? Granted I dont play the raid game...(I blame myself 100% for creating the wrong class for my playstyle) but I do know that I have yet to be in any situation that I can honestly say..."Gee Im glad I was a Guardian"...instead its almost "Ok we won but we probably would have won quicker and easier if I were a Bruiser"....I have no doubt the other people in my group(s) are mumbling something similar behind my back. Point being...imho i think whatever "specialty" Guards have is so extremely situational that it doesnt come close to comparing or being balanced against the other fighters. To make things worse...take me out of the MT role and I am even more useless whereas the other fighters...although not scouts or mages still feel somewhat useful. Doesnt really matter how they fix it or if they do...ive made level 60 which for my playstyle = game over. I havent found a reason to log on in over a month. But i really think the fix would be in increasing the potency of our offensive stance. More generally, i think the almost 15-to-1 ratio between the top DPS in the game and the bottom is way too much and the root cause of alot of imbalance..Either Templars do too little or Sorcorers/Summoners do too much...but its definately not scaling right in terms of balance.

Pry · 01-04-2006, 03:10 AM

The reason that Bruisers such as Snipernewb and Ganja come on here and call us whiners and such, is because they like the new guardian and don't want it to get changed. Why?

Because with a Guardian's protection abilities they can full out DPS AND tank the mob at the same time. Why the both of them say they like having Guardians in their groups. Duh. If you think that the new Guardian abilities weren't designed around increasing the abilities of monks and bruisers (the class of choice for developers!) you are on some other planet.

Sniper, you're the pimple on the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cavity of a flea. Shaddup before you make more of a fool out of yourself than you already have.

Pry · 01-04-2006, 03:14 AM

P.S. To further illustrate my point, why is it that the majority of other classes posting here are monks and bruisers who overwhelmingly (without ever actually playing a Guardian) say that we are fine and "need a little tweak"? I don't see Mages or SK's on here, or Pallys or Rangers....Things that make you go hmmm I guess.

RafaelSmith · 01-04-2006, 03:20 AM

Prynn wrote:
I don't see Mages or SK's on here, or Pallys or Rangers....Things that make you go hmmm I guess.

IMO SKs and Pallys are in the same boat as us ...i.e Brawler > than any of us. Mages...well the Coercers went to Hawaii...the rest are busy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about how their pet looks or how they cant always nuke for 5k. =P Rangers are busy in game soloing all the instances or whiping the floor in PvP duals.

Gungo · 01-04-2006, 05:22 AM

Gungo wrote:

Nice post danab.

Jsut for some corrections the extra dam in the knockdown of baberous stomp is either or and not added damage.

Savage blows and crushing fury require each hit to land in consecutive order in order to do its max damage. True it does happen but for 8 attacks to land in a row is unlikely.

Also it would probably be mroe accurate to use the mid range value instead of the max value since most bruiser damage arts have a large damage range.

And it would be cool is someone can link the same type of spell grade as in MAster to MAster instead of MAster to adept 1. Kinda leaves an huge unbalance issue if you are comparing direct numbers. Alternatly you can use the eq2database search to look up the master quality of guard spells

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Grumpy warrior wrote:

And PS Gumbo, now that you've exerted yourself in your usual manner, how about scroll back up to the top and actually read the first part. In it, I already made it clear that most of the spell pairs are comparisons between master 1 and adept 1 levels, and I already took pains to ask the gentle Guardian readers to post screen shots of their master level combat arts while wearing stats similar to those from the original two posts. I don't think anyone who scans this thread is made more intelligent by seeing you regurgitate the same information just to fill up space with your name on it so please move your propaganda over to danabeb's thread.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________

W/O flaming i congradulated someone on a post and then pointed out flaws and how to make a better summary. Showing you your mistakes in your post. All you did is show wrote a complete Tool your are by your response. Maybe you lacked the comprehension to understand a complete sentence. When i stated it would be cool to have someone give the gaurdians masters i was agreeing with the original poster. IF you wanted to prove a point writing garbage like you did above doesnt help it only makes yoruself seem childish and idoitic. Do what i said and use the eq database to look up the guardian masters. Then Use the Mean value of damage instead of the highest possible value and you will see your entire argument completely eskewed. Yes bruiser do more damage congratualtions you must consider yourself smart for figuring out something that was completly obvious. Next time you decide to write something grumpy warrior think about ask yourself does this make any sense? Does it serve a purpose? Grow up man stop being an A-hole your whole life.

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Owa · 01-04-2006, 06:20 AM

Gaige wrote:

Its funny, but against orange epics... that's where fighter selection matters the least. All that matters is HP and taunting ability. Nothing else. I've tanked a couple orange epics and it wasn't too hard really.

Frankly, whether or not you find orange epics to be 'too hard' is not particularly pertinent. From what I can glean, you seem to be a remarkably good player and don't really reflect the average. My point is that MOST people would prefer their main tank to be a Guardian over a Brawler when tanking the game's most difficult mobs.

I might be wrong about that though - that's why I was asking the Guardians what they thought.

And am still waiting for an answer, actually...

Message Edited by annaspider on 01-03-2006 08:21 PM

Salgo · 01-04-2006, 08:00 AM

Stroicthe wrote:

Furthermore, when you picked a Guardian, just exactly what role did you think you would be playing? A hulking wall of steel with damage equal to that of classes who give up defense for the same output? I'm not saying your DPS doesn't need a boost, but really, think about what your actually asking for.

I would hope many of you picked Guardian to be tanking some of the hardest single target encounters in the game, as well as, ya know, guarding your team with a plethora of buffs and skills to lessen and spread damage. And guess what? You do these things wonderfully.
You also seem to want our utility. Very well, take it. You can have my mez, my fear, my broken teleport, and even my Stone Deaf, but in return I get your group defense buff, group melee skill buff, massive group HP buff, and Sentry. Utility isn't looking so good now.

Hehehe I love it. Now they are playing the other side of the argument. Gee I wonder what us Guards were thinking? Hmmm what role did we think we would fulfill? I think it was...The most "Defensive" tank when that actually meant something.

I'm a casual player....I don't play enough to be raiding yet. I selected Guard because I saw that it was the best Group tank (XP Group included). Well, had SOE not changed their mind on our specialized class then everything would be fine. Thing is...they changed that after the now infamous update. So you see, I didn't choose the wrong class....SOE just changed it.

If I could level a toon in a week then you wouldn't see me on here. I would just reroll and move on. More than that though...I have put everything I have in this toon. Its not much I'm sure when compared to some of the other more experienced Guards but that's not the point. It is painfully obvious to me when I have my LFG tag up and just waiting and waiting that this is not a balanced class. I have no other role than to MT and even then we are not the most efficient XP MT.

Most of us are now asking for a secondary role when not MT since we are sharing that role now. I don't think I have heard a cry for a nerf from Guards, yet a lot of other fighters come in here and seem to just try and derail the thread. For those actually posting productive posts...thank you. Belive me its appreciated.

One has to wonder why all the attempts to derail the thread? Is it that YOU want to remain in your superior position? Hmmm is that how things work? Someone tries to come up with ideas to fix their class and other classes just try and derail?? I wish I was aware of this when things were the other way around. Maybe I should have been posting on your boards derailing thread after thread.

We are not asking for extra DPS when we are MT...we need it when off-tanking! Make it so without imbalancing the tanking equation with stances...an extra stance I don't care...whatever. And when we say that we want Equal DPS and Equal Utility...we don't mean we want all of your DPS, but it should be proportional to the tanking gap. Why is that so wrong? And Look, I am not even calling for a Nerf....most players don't like asking for nerfs on other classes. We just want to have fun with our class again.

a6eaq · 01-04-2006, 10:16 AM

Sniper is english you first language? Can you read? Do you have an IQ high enough to comprehend words that are more than 2 syllables long?

I ask because you wrote:

Here's another post for ya, [Removed for Content]. I just noticed what Gungo or someone said about using the max value of every combat art. You just took a bunch of numbers and slapped them together to paint guardians in the worst view possible when it comes to dps. Someone who really knows what they're doing should do a real comparison of same level, same quality arts for the various fighters classes instead of the bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you posted. Master1's (lvl 57) vs Adept1's (lvl 54). That's just outright [mentally challenged].

Let's see what was stated by the OP shall we?

Please do not derail by picking apart the pairings. They are not the main purpose of this exercise, just a means to divide up the comparison between the two subclasses. (I guess this means that the OP knows these skills are not paired up skill for skill, but if you would understand his intent, you would have know that the pairings have NO bearing on the final numbers. But hey, if you can't read and comprehend, why should we think you can add and understand?)

and:

If you have images of the Guardian Master/Adept 3 arts (using appropriate stats) post them here and I'll try to cut and paste them in and adjust the values. (Well? Do you have any screenshots of the correct ability levels? Well do ya? Of course you don't. That would mean you would have to do a little research for yourself, and since you are more worried about name calling and acting like my two and a half year old kid you never will. Will you? Please do something that remotely looks like an adult behavior and prove me wrong by posting the correct shots yourself since you have a problem with them as they are.)

Oh! and let's not forget:

Most of these are Master 1 versus Adept 1 which does skew the results but this is all I have to work with. (This is the sentence immediately before the above quote. He took the abilities out of 2 seperate threads to more easily compare the two abilities. Yet, once again, if you would take time to read/ponder/comprehend the OP you would have gotten that as well since it was the opening line and I quote agan "Looking for a way to quantify how much damage output each subclass can produce, based on the two recent posts with the compiled images:" I left out the links to save space.)

The pairings are not skill for skill, but when totalling the numbers, the adventure level each is attained at has absolutely no affect on the final totals. Do you remember A+B=B+A from math class? If you paid as much attention there as you do here, I am sure you totally freaked out on your math teacher about using letters to represent real world numbers instead just getting the point of the formula.

Sure, the ability levels don't always add up ( Master to Adept). He knows that and so does everyone that actually paid attention to the post. You want actual numbers? Get the correct info and post it so we can see the actual difference between our classes DPS. Calling him a [Removed for Content] will get you nowhere. After all, are you so "[mentally challenged] " that you can't search our forums or talk to the friends you have online and get them so the post can be corrected?

It seems to me that the point of the OP was asking for people to post the correct shots so that he could make a quality comparison. He just didn't have the correct information and wanted to make a single thread out of two seperate threads to ease the comparison between Guardians and Bruisers. Was that really that hard to understand? He had a good idea, and good intentions which is more than anyone can accuse you of in your post.

Wasuna · 01-08-2006, 04:43 PM

Skharr wrote:Grumy_Warrior_01 and Wasuna are probably the whiniest guardians atm, /medal.

Woot! I won a medal from a brawler! That makes it extra special.

daeneriez · 01-08-2006, 07:43 PM

Message Edited by daeneriez on 01-08-200603:44 PM

aislynn00 · 01-08-2006, 07:46 PM

This entire thread is an exercise in pointlessness. You can't in any way compare the DPS output of the two classes by simply adding up the max damage of their combat arts.

Apart from the fact that you don't end up hitting for max the same number of times when using two different combat arts, you are also completely ignoring many factors which further skew your findings dramatically.

How about the raw DPS (i.e., raw damage, in this context) buff of bruisers (Stirring Cry) or the offensive skill buff of guardians? Against anything but high orange cons and red cons against which everyone misses frequently, the bruiser buff affords a much greater DPS payoff.

What about the fact that guardians are tanking with a shield while bruisers are using dual wield weapons or, alternatively, a two-hander?

If you want to look at soloing tough mobs, you are completely ignoring the significant advantage of being able to stun a mob, circle around it, stun it again, then hit it a few times in the back, thus circumventing parries, blocks, and ripostes. With a single 4 second stun, guardians can get in one single hit. Bruisers, meanwhile, sporting several stuns, excel in this tactic, thus giving them an even greater DPS advantage when soloing.

Also, you are ignoring the fact that our DPS is dealt to a substantial extent over time while bruiser damage is usually all up front, meaning they actually get to apply all of that damage before the mob is dead. Conversely, it is a rare event that I see Hew and Relentless Charge actually last their full duration unless cast on a named heroic or an epic mob.

Quarrel adds an additional chance to proc damage (as well as hate) on every single melee attack the bruiser makes.

Furthermore, bruisers have inherently higher strength than we do, courtesy of their Battle Lust self-buff, at least as long as we don't adopt our offensive stance.

Which brings us to the disparity between our offensive stances. There is simply no comparing the two classes in that regard; bruisers are leagues ahead of guardians, DPS-wise.

And since the bruiser stance actually adds yet another a proc to all bruiser attacks, it, as well as Quarrel, works synergistically with AE attacks, and in particular, multi-strike combat arts such as Crushing Fury and Savage Blows. This is a major one, people.

Bottom line, there is no point whatsoever in trying to compare theoretical DPS. If you want to get a clear picture of the actual DPS disparity between our respective classes, go out there and start logging and parsing equivalently geared bruisers and guardians in both offensive as well as defensive (and balanced) stances. It isn't a pretty sight.

Ladicav · 01-08-2006, 08:06 PM

Good post. You raised valid points.

Grumpy_Warrior_01 · 01-08-2006, 08:28 PM

aislynn00 I could not agree with you more, that you cannot simply look at combat art damage in a vacuum and presume to know whether one of the subclasses is working at an unspoken advantage. In my mind, when I started the thread, matching up the screenshots from two other posts and just kind of putting it out there without malice or motive seemed harmless enough. And I guess if the totals hadn't been so disparate, the non-guardian onslaught might have been less virulent.

There is no question in my mind, none whatsoever, that bruisers on the whole are playing at a much more elevated level than guardians at this time, both in fact and in perception. And I can assure you, there is no question in the minds of the bruiser players either.

Last year, there was a website (which was shut down when SOE stopped allowing XML feeds of the data) that kept semi-empirical tallies of how many of each race and subclass were on each server, and I used to visit there all the time. I remember there was not an all-servers tally, so you had to check each server individually. But in the majority of cases, over time, guardians were at or near the top in terms of population on every server, and by a wide margin. Guardians were easy and rewarding to play, and during the early months the subclass developed some positive associations, so it makes perfect sense. (Paladins (possibly due to the free horse) and templars were also in the top three in virtually every case also during that period before the horse nerf.) The evil races (and consequently the evil versions of the classes) consistently showed dramatically lower populations.

My honest appraisal of this whole situation is that the game designers decided, or realized, that there were a lot more guardian characters being played than the other fighter subclasses, and the perceived and actual state of the fighter game has changed through the various live updates purely as a result of social engineering by the designers. It's possible that the game is not considered to be succeeding unless all the class populations are out there playing in relatively equal numbers, so this whole issue of class balancing, in that light, may in fact be one of population balance instead. My new baby brawler agrees.

kopingOwen · 01-09-2006, 10:03 AM

comparing bruiser vs guardian is quite hard you have noticed it seemsBruiser = a tank class that rely more on dps to hold aggro then taunting = therefor more damage output even tho i think the power output is about the sameGuardian = a tank class that rely more on taunting then doing damage to hold aggro = more taunts and less damage output..do this makes it easier for a bruiser to solo then a guardian? yes (only and idiot would argue that)do this makes it easier for the bruiser to tank in a grp? well here it gets tricky... if you look at raw numbers if both tanks were in defensive mode i would say that the guardian is better (by alot, therefor they inmplemented the semi defensive/offensive stance for brawler classess) cuz soe looked to equal all the fighter classes tanking ability vile they did not pay as much attention at the soloability..anyways There is alot of factors to include to get a fair and accurate comparison of the two that i think we have a hard time doing ittaunts, damage dealt, damage taken is the key factors of holding aggro..i´ve seen little of the damage taken factor in this thread...with this we come with the Plate vs Light armor deal aka mit vs avoidmit = reduces the damage taken by a sertan %avoid = giving a % chance to avoid damagenow usually the guardian takes alittle damage everytime therefore gaining aggro on a steady basis were the brawler in teory is taking less damage but when the brawler takes damage the damage is higher therefor a more burst type of aggro..Both classess have buffs and such to neglect this factor as much as possible aka taking damage but its still there since you are still taking damage right? (or else something is seriusly at error)I have not made any guardin but i had a bruiser i have a paladin so i know what tanking is all about..I think the problem is SOE created fighters that rely partly on damage to hold aggro... this makes an unfair advantage in the second tank position (no room for argue there is it?)Is there something we/soe can do to make this go away without nerfnig the brawlers totaly (taking away their semi offensive/defensive stance for example) IMO the awnser is NOhow do we solve the problem, simply upp the damage on guard... or maby not what will happen if we upp the damge for guard?I´ll tell youthere word you all knowBERSERKER yes upping the damage will only make a guard = berserker with better taunts and defensive buffs..tricky situation? yeseasy to solve? hell nowe need to find a solution that makes a guard second tanking ability more desirable.lets look at guardians key abilityTaking others damage, is it not?right now as soon a guardian tries to use these more often then not the guardian dies..my suggestion to the second taking is to fix these so the guard can acctuallt use these without making the healer go "HOLY SHAIT!"can we play with that?? like to hear if someone have a good fix on this "the guardians key ability"on how to solve the soloability.. I don´t have any good one =( don´t have any ideas to fix this wihtout making the guard do more damage...

Gungo · 01-09-2006, 10:05 AM

grump instead of using the max value you should use the mid value since that is the most accurate value since damage on those comabt arts have a range and using the max value skews the results.

Also the bruiser combat art Barbarous stomp uses the second dam Only. You do not add both values. The second value is the dam it does if you connect on a knockdown. The first value is the damage it does if you connect when the mob is not knocked down.

Message Edited by Gungo on 01-08-200609:10 PM

Terron · 01-10-2006, 06:10 PM

kopingOwen wrote:how do we solve the problem, simply upp the damage on guard... or maby not what will happen if we upp the damge for guard?I´ll tell youthere word you all knowBERSERKER yes upping the damage will only make a guard = berserker with better taunts and defensive buffs..

No - There is a big enough difference that the damage a guardian does can be increased whilst still leaving them far behind berserkers.

tricky situation? yeseasy to solve? hell no

I agree.

we need to find a solution that makes a guard second tanking ability more desirable.

Or gives them another role.

lets look at guardians key abilityTaking others damage, is it not?

That is debatable. Taking others damage is best done by being the tank and keeping aggro, but now that is the key ability of all fighters.Defending themseves and protecting others should be what the class is about.

right now as soon a guardian tries to use these more often then not the guardian dies..my suggestion to the second taking is to fix these so the guard can acctuallt use these without making the healer go "HOLY SHAIT!"can we play with that?? like to hear if someone have a good fix on this "the guardians key ability"

If transferred damage would kill a guardian give him a chance (25%?) of surving on 1% of health instead.And/or have a different line of abilities where the guard has a chance of intercepting a physical attack made on the protected target so that attack strikes the guard instead (and the guard gets to use his mitigation against it).As main tank this would only be useful as a limited insurance against losing aggro to the protected person, but it would allow a guardian to take some damage for someone else acting as main tank.

on how to solve the soloability.. I don´t have any good one =( don´t have any ideas to fix this wihtout making the guard do more damage...

Yes. The solution has to involve increasing guards DPS, without significantly improving the agrro that gives them when tanking. The obvious try is to improve guards offensive stance since in theory they should not be using that when tanking. Unfortunately it seems that the interaction with the HTL line means that the offensive stance gives better aggro control than the defensive one. I'm sure the defensive stance is supposed to be our tanking stance so maybe merging that with the HTL line would free up the offensive stance so that its DPS could be improved, though not to a berserkers level. Berserkers get a proc that can do extra damage to multiple targets. Perhaps guardians could be given one that did almost as much damage but only to a single target.

01-03-2006, 10:57 PM	#32
Danan General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 210	mastersardis wrote: Our damage is pitiful. You can't compute our DPS on paper, folks. In order to hold agro, i've got to spam taunts(due to taunt resists). That leaves no time and no power to use CAs. When not in MT mode, my damage is still pitiful, and after only a few CAs, i'm oop again. The issue is that Guards simply dont have the auto attack or CA damage required to be effective in any DPS role, even if it is to fill in for the lack of a scout/mage. Yes it looks good on paper, but it is horribly implemented in-game. Why is it such a hard thing to accept? What is so game breaking about a Guardian doing equal DPS to a Monk/Bruiser? Because Guards are a specialized tank? Then we should tank better than a brawler. If we're not a specialized tank (which we're not) then we should have equal DPS and utility. Guardian being balanced to brawler classes does not threaten any brawler class. It only makes us viable in a non-MT role. We don't want to be "the Best Tank," but we must be allowed to have a secondary, non-tank role. Being able to take damage for a group member is tanking utility. It's just about useless if the tank is doing their job. Give us something that makes a group want us for something other than as MT. If you gave the Guard the same damage as a brawler the ability to hold agro would increase well beyond any other fighter class giving the Guardian a HUGE edge as a tank. The way that the offensive stances work at the moment it is entirely possible to tank while in offensive stance, in my oppinion this is what needs to change, maybe then the stances can add more damage. __________________

01-03-2006, 11:29 PM	#34
Wabit Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 802	i miss my haste from pre-LU13... that was a noticeable difference... heck 20% haste shield and 1H i do more dps than with a 2h 15% haste... haven't tried DW yet... Wabit __________________ Wabit- 80 guardian Trixr- 70 carpenter - Oasis (part time Warden) Thoog- 80 monk - Oasis

01-04-2006, 12:54 AM	#37
mastersard Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 403	Danterus wrote: Bruisers outdamage Guardians significantly because the Guardian Offensive Stance sucks and does not have a proc or haste attached to it. Compare the DPS unbuffed, auto-attack only. Bruiser/Monk is 3 times the damage of Guardians. In offensive stance, buffed, again, 3 times the damage. In defensive stance (which I'd never use) again, 3 times the damage. Now add buffs, stance(s), CAs, all out damage. It's more of a disparity! Base damage on the Guardian needs to be raised. YES our offensive stance sucks, but the problem is much, much deeper. Guardian as a class has not been developed beyond the EQ1 Warrior, i.e. we are still a specialised tank in a hybrid tank's game. Beyond that, SOE needs to find us a niche, a role that can define the Guardian when he must operate out of the tanking role.

01-04-2006, 01:41 AM	#38
Owa General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 944	Another quick question to the Guardians and sorry it's probably on the wrong thread but - DPS and 'utility' aside for the moment - do you think you are better able to deal with powerful mobs than Brawlers? I'm referring to orange and red heroics and epics of all sizes. My impression is that we (Brawlers) tank perfectly well for the most part - but when it comes to the really tough mobs Guardians are who most people want standing out in front [Removed for Content] off the dragon. __________________

01-04-2006, 01:42 AM	#39
Stroicthe Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 47	Ok, there are some very large misconceptions about a Bruiser's ability to absorb damage that need to be addressed. Let me give you a firsthand example. I don't know how many of you raid high end content, but for those of you who do, we were raiding the Court of Al'Afaz. Now the majority of the zone is not to much trouble, the named can be frisky but it's nothing too tough. Then comes the Black Queen, a 65 ^^^ x4 epic. Now this is a very tough mob, and I was called on to tank. Now with 3/4 fabled, capped str/agi/stamina, +420ish mitigation from an SK, Master 1 mitigation and avoidance buffs(which, by the way, only last 3 minutes on a 3 minute cooldown, and do a very noticable amount of unpreventable damage), T6 rare mitigation, hitpoint, and stamina potions, Master 1 Porcupine active, and with 9k HP and 80% avoidance, +I pulled her and her two adds. Now the distance I needed to pull back to, the corner on the left for those familiar, was about a 2 second pull tops. I was dead before I even touched the wall. Perhaps a lucky special attack I thought. No, was simply two auto attacks from the Queen, and 2 from her adds. 80% Avoidance indeed. So we wipe and get formed up again. I'm then subbed out for a Guardian. Pulls her with no trouble and tanks her all the way to 40% HP before his brain exploded from her special. During the entire burn down to 40%, aggro slipped once, with us burning pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] hard. And by the way, he had 60% avoidance, in Cobalt, with around 2000 more mitigation than I. Funny thing about mitigation, It’s not based on dumb luck. Now I fully understand that Guardians do in fact have issues that need to be addressed, such as power consumption. But to honestly even suggest that Bruisers tank as well, or even better than a plate tank makes me want to ignore the rest of your comments. Bruisers tank on luck, and with no self HP buff, and no way to deal with two, three, or four back to back hits for 4k, plus AoEs for about the same amount, it's not even close. Also do remember that Bruisers have very low AoE hate generation. Savage Blows is a 1:30 minute recast. After its gone, we have the following for AoE hate generation; A blue background AoE for an average of around 300-400 damage, and a single AE taunt on a 20 second timer with the exact same taunt amount as yours. Tank the scarab ring events in Poets Palace as a Bruiser and then tell me we have better AE aggro than Guardians. Now it's my understanding, that a class with superb group buffs that rival many healers, better AE hate generation than at least three fighters, best damage soaking capabilities in the game, and more than enough hate per second to hold single target aggro, also want damage equal to Bruisers, who sacrifice all of the above for said damage. Interesting. Also, the comparison for the damage and hate between our skill lines is so skewed it’s beyond redemption. Did you compare at 350 Strength? Did you match up the quality levels? No, making the whole comparison pointless. Not to mention the fact we need to be flanking for Kidney Punch, as well as the fact that many of our skills not only have a very wide gap between min and max damage, but also have a low hit chance, such as Savage Blows or Crushing Fury. Now I am more than happy to discuss something like this, but only if you bring reliable, solid data to debate with. Furthermore, when you picked a Guardian, just exactly what role did you think you would be playing? A hulking wall of steel with damage equal to that of classes who give up defense for the same output? I'm not saying your DPS doesn't need a boost, but really, think about what your actually asking for. I would hope many of you picked Guardian to be tanking some of the hardest single target encounters in the game, as well as, ya know, guarding your team with a plethora of buffs and skills to lessen and spread damage. And guess what? You do these things wonderfully. You also seem to want our utility. Very well, take it. You can have my mez, my fear, my broken teleport, and even my Stone Deaf, but in return I get your group defense buff, group melee skill buff, massive group HP buff, and Sentry. Utility isn't looking so good now. Also, a quick note about Guardians as they are leveling. I was 52 when our current Guardian created his toon. By the time I was 60, in the span of about 2 weeks, he was 50. He trioed the whole way. Appears to me he wasn’t slowing things down very much. Look, I’m not trying to be a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] here, but when you are screaming for a nerf when you have no idea what the hell your talking about, it irks me a bit. I am more than open to questions, rebuttals or outright flames but please be respectful enough to keep it out of my original thread, I don’t want to see it locked because of childish arguments and flames. Thank you, Dof Message Edited by Stroicthe on 01-03-2006 01:43 PM __________________ __________________________________________ Your suffering is my insperation. Every tear a song, every scream a symphony. General Syric the Exiled, 80 Dirge of Venekor Officer of Den of Madness

01-03-2006, 10:47 PM	#31
mastersard Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 403	Our damage is pitiful. You can't compute our DPS on paper, folks. In order to hold agro, i've got to spam taunts(due to taunt resists). That leaves no time and no power to use CAs. When not in MT mode, my damage is still pitiful, and after only a few CAs, i'm oop again. The issue is that Guards simply dont have the auto attack or CA damage required to be effective in any DPS role, even if it is to fill in for the lack of a scout/mage. Yes it looks good on paper, but it is horribly implemented in-game. Why is it such a hard thing to accept? What is so game breaking about a Guardian doing equal DPS to a Monk/Bruiser? Because Guards are a specialized tank? Then we should tank better than a brawler. If we're not a specialized tank (which we're not) then we should have equal DPS and utility. Guardian being balanced to brawler classes does not threaten any brawler class. It only makes us viable in a non-MT role. We don't want to be "the Best Tank," but we must be allowed to have a secondary, non-tank role. Being able to take damage for a group member is tanking utility. It's just about useless if the tank is doing their job. Give us something that makes a group want us for something other than as MT.

01-03-2006, 11:20 PM	#33
Danter General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 321	I have a 53 Guardian and a 60 Bruiser. My main was used to a Guardian before LU 13. Then, I shelved him and rolled a Bruiser because I didn't like the path that Guards were heading. First, some of your skill comparisons are wrong. Pound should not be compared to Perfect Strike, it should be compared to Overpower because they're both on 10s recast timers. Staggering Rush and Iron Fist are good to compare, but you fail to mention Staggering Rush is on a 20s recast timer where Iron Fist is on a 30s recast. Comparing Sonic Fists with Quelling Strike isn't good either. Sonic Fists requires you to be at least 15m to use and is currently bugged, where it doesn't work 50% of the time. You also seem to completly ignore the worth of debuffs. That being said, Bruisers out damage Guardians by a significant amount. The reason is not because of the innate damage that the skills do. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Bruisers outdamage Guardians significantly because the Guardian Offensive Stance sucks and does not have a proc or haste attached to it. In a heroic encounter, my offensive stance will proc 3-5 times per battle at about 350 damage. On multi mobs, it's about 5-10 times. When you add all that up, that's a significant amount of damage. Also, Quarrel adds a decent amount of damage as well. Guardians also lack multi hit CAs that Beserkers, Monks, and Bruisers get that help proc their weapons. These CAs are essential in dealing a lot of DPS. I don't think Guardians need any multi hit CAs because they'd be overpowered if they had them. In order to balance Guardians, SOE needs to give them haste or a proc on the offensive stance. Until then, the DPS gap will continue to be really wide.

01-03-2006, 11:40 PM	#35
uux Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 486	You can look up the numbers associated with different combat arts of varying quality using a program found at http://www.eq2idb.com. Most of the screenshots won't help with a comparison (as the combat art shots tend to be red). You can use the Copy Link button on the bottom to paste yourself a link (ctrl+v in a chat window) to the item in game. Cap out your str and click the link to see what it can do. This will only work for arts belonging to your class as others will still be red to you. Most of the combat arts from app2 to master1 are in there. Careful reading the descriptions of arts belonging to other classes as well. I know for the berserker skills some in game descriptions are not accurate.

01-04-2006, 12:49 AM	#36
uux Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 486	Regarding a target limit on Goading Assault, AOE target limits were changed in LU#16. From the patch notes: - All area-of-effect spells that affect only a single encounter no longer have a target limit. - All area-of-effect spells that do not target a specific encounter now affect a maximum of 8 targets. So Goading Assault could hit more than 8 opponents.

01-04-2006, 01:44 AM	#40
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	annaspider wrote: My impression is that we (Brawlers) tank perfectly well for the most part - but when it comes to the really tough mobs Guardians are who most people want standing out in front [Removed for Content] off the dragon. Its funny, but against orange epics... that's where fighter selection matters the least. All that matters is HP and taunting ability. Nothing else. I've tanked a couple orange epics and it wasn't too hard really. As for this wishful thinking about role reversal due to the revamping of the newbie game. I wouldn't hold your breath. They are allowing new players to jump in and be a shadowknight as soon as they can with shadowknight type spells and a shadowknight type feel. They are doing away with the blah I'm a fighter, blah I'm a crusader FINALLY I'm a shadowknight type of lower end game. Where in all of that do you see the role of the shadowknight changing, simply because you can be a shadowknight sooner? __________________

01-04-2006, 01:59 AM	#41
Vormulac Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 71	Dananeb wrote: Threat a minute comparison Guardians Skill Threat(max) Recast Threat/min Confront 1276 8.0 9570 Protect 681 20 2043 Unforgiven strike 613 10 3678 Goading assault 639 30 1278 Total 16579 Bruisers Pressure 1276 8.0 9570 Abuse 681 20 2043 Total 11613 Now I didn’t include either MD or the Bruiser Quarrel as these are the reactive/proccing threat increasing skill, and the Bruiser only procs at 25%(124max dmg and 194 threat) while the Guard is 50%(327 threat). I am assuming that these are balanced through damage and threat given. I also didn’t include the skill Reinforcement as this is probably an emergency skill like Rescue. Even without MD and Reinforcement the difference is close to 5k in favor of the Guard. So honestly what you didn’t get in Dps you did get in pure threat. I agree this doesn’t fix the problem of what a guardian has as a secondary tank/dps in groups or raids. But as far as keeping agro the guardian is making up for the damage through pure threat. Is that why i can put all taunts down on a mob and our bruiser can yank it off without rescue at any given time, even if i have been taunting for 2min solid. Pure threat doesnt even work correctly dps is the only way to truly hold agro. Which is sad cause i really don't want to be a dps tank i just want to be a tank and for all its worth i feel i do that pretty well. (currently mt'd everything we have faced including 4th floor PP:return) But to truly hold agro on most fights i have to add in procs from other classes and push my dps to 400+ even when half the raid is on auto attack/ using nukes sparingly. Vormulac Unsleep Guild Leader Shattered Moon Neriak __________________ Vormulac Unsleep Guild Leader Shattered Moon (.org) Neriakithicor

01-04-2006, 02:24 AM	#42
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	Stroicthe wrote: Ok, there are ...please be respectful enough to keep it out of my original thread, I don’t want to see it locked because of childish arguments and flames. Thank you, Dof Message Edited by Stroicthe on 01-03-2006 01:43 PM I didn't scream for a nerf. The fact that you were selected for MT shows that bruisers can and indeed are selected for this. You had a bad round it sounds like. To bad the oragne and up stuff just basically ignores avoidance and mitigation and just smacks people around. I know others have posted thathere over and over that when you get higher and higher it only comes down to HP's really. Just read this thread and you'll see others say that. The fact is that Guardians are geared and skilled for ONE (1) thing and that is to tank. We have no other role. Fine, if we are only tanks then from here on I demand that we always be main tank. I doubt any of you other fighters would want that but that is what your arguing for. Most of us Guardians are asking for us to be equal which we are not. As for your friend, I have many that are able to do just that. They have free time and the will to do it. Tank, healer and DPS. Guardian to tank, healer to heal, DPS to make things dead. Now look who was the tank and you'll see where the Guardian is always at or is notincluded. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

01-04-2006, 02:28 AM	#43
Colossaltitan Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,792	Add in Quarrel Proc's & Engulf procs... ohh, and... we about 100k ahead of Guardians. Whats your point? Nerf Bruisers? Make a solid post of reasonable things. (AKA SAY YOU WANT MORE DPS AS A GUARDIAN!)

01-04-2006, 02:29 AM	#44
Veshtan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 54	The basic difference, from all that i have read, and all that i have experience comes down to this. Brawlers are much better all around fighters for doing the average deal. THey have more DPS and their ability to taunt on normal con-mobs is more then adequate to get the job done. There are a variety of reasons for this, there's little need to lay them all out, it's been done before. What the Guardian truly excels at is raid level content. As Gaige and Anna have pointed out, when it comes to epic mobs, the Guards are still considered the go-to guys (or gals). If you're okay knowing that this is your nitch and that's what you want to play for, knowing that you're not going to be nearly as good at the rest of the game, then make a Guardian. If you're an average Joe who plays casually, likes to solo some, and thinks raiding is something you do to the fridge, then a Guardian is probably not for you. At least not in it's current form. Unfortunately i am one of those average joes, so the Guardian is no longer for me. I'm not whining...i probably have done enough of that, it's not worth wasting the breath anymore. SOE has their "vision" just like with EQ1, and what some people want just isn't going to work in that vision. Like i said, as long as you know what you want and you're okay with knowing that being a Guard is going to make you much more one dimensional than most other classes, then be my guest, play. Just remember this....Gaige isn't nearly as horrible a person as some Guard's say he is....and his horns and devil's tail aren't really THAT long :smileywink: (It's probably valid to point out that if you think your class sucks, you're going to make it suck even more then it probably really does simply because you're so unhappy with it that you're not really putting forth the effort to play it as well as it can possibly be played)

01-04-2006, 02:59 AM	#45
RafaelSmith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,808	Its true we have to look at the whole class (dps,tanking,utitlity) etc when discussing balance but one also has to consider the whole game...more importantly what we do the majority of the time we play. Whatever tanking advantage I as Gaurdian may have..its required/used ALOT less than the extra DPS and/or Utiliity the other fighters have. If a Bruiser can tank 90% of the content just as well or better than a Guard...yet do 3x the DPS of a Guard or provide far more buffs 100% of the time...then who is underpowered?...who is the better fighter? Granted I dont play the raid game...(I blame myself 100% for creating the wrong class for my playstyle) but I do know that I have yet to be in any situation that I can honestly say..."Gee Im glad I was a Guardian"...instead its almost "Ok we won but we probably would have won quicker and easier if I were a Bruiser"....I have no doubt the other people in my group(s) are mumbling something similar behind my back. Point being...imho i think whatever "specialty" Guards have is so extremely situational that it doesnt come close to comparing or being balanced against the other fighters. To make things worse...take me out of the MT role and I am even more useless whereas the other fighters...although not scouts or mages still feel somewhat useful. Doesnt really matter how they fix it or if they do...ive made level 60 which for my playstyle = game over. I havent found a reason to log on in over a month. But i really think the fix would be in increasing the potency of our offensive stance. More generally, i think the almost 15-to-1 ratio between the top DPS in the game and the bottom is way too much and the root cause of alot of imbalance..Either Templars do too little or Sorcorers/Summoners do too much...but its definately not scaling right in terms of balance. __________________

01-04-2006, 03:10 AM	#46
Pry Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	The reason that Bruisers such as Snipernewb and Ganja come on here and call us whiners and such, is because they like the new guardian and don't want it to get changed. Why? Because with a Guardian's protection abilities they can full out DPS AND tank the mob at the same time. Why the both of them say they like having Guardians in their groups. Duh. If you think that the new Guardian abilities weren't designed around increasing the abilities of monks and bruisers (the class of choice for developers!) you are on some other planet. Sniper, you're the pimple on the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] cavity of a flea. Shaddup before you make more of a fool out of yourself than you already have.

01-04-2006, 03:14 AM	#47
Pry Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	P.S. To further illustrate my point, why is it that the majority of other classes posting here are monks and bruisers who overwhelmingly (without ever actually playing a Guardian) say that we are fine and "need a little tweak"? I don't see Mages or SK's on here, or Pallys or Rangers....Things that make you go hmmm I guess.

01-04-2006, 03:20 AM	#48
RafaelSmith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,808	Prynn wrote: I don't see Mages or SK's on here, or Pallys or Rangers....Things that make you go hmmm I guess. IMO SKs and Pallys are in the same boat as us ...i.e Brawler > than any of us. Mages...well the Coercers went to Hawaii...the rest are busy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about how their pet looks or how they cant always nuke for 5k. =P Rangers are busy in game soloing all the instances or whiping the floor in PvP duals. __________________

01-04-2006, 05:22 AM	#49
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	Gungo wrote: Nice post danab. Jsut for some corrections the extra dam in the knockdown of baberous stomp is either or and not added damage. Savage blows and crushing fury require each hit to land in consecutive order in order to do its max damage. True it does happen but for 8 attacks to land in a row is unlikely. Also it would probably be mroe accurate to use the mid range value instead of the max value since most bruiser damage arts have a large damage range. And it would be cool is someone can link the same type of spell grade as in MAster to MAster instead of MAster to adept 1. Kinda leaves an huge unbalance issue if you are comparing direct numbers. Alternatly you can use the eq2database search to look up the master quality of guard spells __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________ Grumpy warrior wrote: And PS Gumbo, now that you've exerted yourself in your usual manner, how about scroll back up to the top and actually read the first part. In it, I already made it clear that most of the spell pairs are comparisons between master 1 and adept 1 levels, and I already took pains to ask the gentle Guardian readers to post screen shots of their master level combat arts while wearing stats similar to those from the original two posts. I don't think anyone who scans this thread is made more intelligent by seeing you regurgitate the same information just to fill up space with your name on it so please move your propaganda over to danabeb's thread. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________ W/O flaming i congradulated someone on a post and then pointed out flaws and how to make a better summary. Showing you your mistakes in your post. All you did is show wrote a complete Tool your are by your response. Maybe you lacked the comprehension to understand a complete sentence. When i stated it would be cool to have someone give the gaurdians masters i was agreeing with the original poster. IF you wanted to prove a point writing garbage like you did above doesnt help it only makes yoruself seem childish and idoitic. Do what i said and use the eq database to look up the guardian masters. Then Use the Mean value of damage instead of the highest possible value and you will see your entire argument completely eskewed. Yes bruiser do more damage congratualtions you must consider yourself smart for figuring out something that was completly obvious. Next time you decide to write something grumpy warrior think about ask yourself does this make any sense? Does it serve a purpose? Grow up man stop being an A-hole your whole life. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________

01-04-2006, 06:20 AM	#50
Owa General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 944	Gaige wrote: Its funny, but against orange epics... that's where fighter selection matters the least. All that matters is HP and taunting ability. Nothing else. I've tanked a couple orange epics and it wasn't too hard really. Frankly, whether or not you find orange epics to be 'too hard' is not particularly pertinent. From what I can glean, you seem to be a remarkably good player and don't really reflect the average. My point is that MOST people would prefer their main tank to be a Guardian over a Brawler when tanking the game's most difficult mobs. I might be wrong about that though - that's why I was asking the Guardians what they thought. And am still waiting for an answer, actually... Message Edited by annaspider on 01-03-2006 08:21 PM __________________

01-04-2006, 08:00 AM	#51
Salgo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 90	Stroicthe wrote: Furthermore, when you picked a Guardian, just exactly what role did you think you would be playing? A hulking wall of steel with damage equal to that of classes who give up defense for the same output? I'm not saying your DPS doesn't need a boost, but really, think about what your actually asking for. I would hope many of you picked Guardian to be tanking some of the hardest single target encounters in the game, as well as, ya know, guarding your team with a plethora of buffs and skills to lessen and spread damage. And guess what? You do these things wonderfully. You also seem to want our utility. Very well, take it. You can have my mez, my fear, my broken teleport, and even my Stone Deaf, but in return I get your group defense buff, group melee skill buff, massive group HP buff, and Sentry. Utility isn't looking so good now. Hehehe I love it. Now they are playing the other side of the argument. Gee I wonder what us Guards were thinking? Hmmm what role did we think we would fulfill? I think it was...The most "Defensive" tank when that actually meant something. I'm a casual player....I don't play enough to be raiding yet. I selected Guard because I saw that it was the best Group tank (XP Group included). Well, had SOE not changed their mind on our specialized class then everything would be fine. Thing is...they changed that after the now infamous update. So you see, I didn't choose the wrong class....SOE just changed it. If I could level a toon in a week then you wouldn't see me on here. I would just reroll and move on. More than that though...I have put everything I have in this toon. Its not much I'm sure when compared to some of the other more experienced Guards but that's not the point. It is painfully obvious to me when I have my LFG tag up and just waiting and waiting that this is not a balanced class. I have no other role than to MT and even then we are not the most efficient XP MT. Most of us are now asking for a secondary role when not MT since we are sharing that role now. I don't think I have heard a cry for a nerf from Guards, yet a lot of other fighters come in here and seem to just try and derail the thread. For those actually posting productive posts...thank you. Belive me its appreciated. One has to wonder why all the attempts to derail the thread? Is it that YOU want to remain in your superior position? Hmmm is that how things work? Someone tries to come up with ideas to fix their class and other classes just try and derail?? I wish I was aware of this when things were the other way around. Maybe I should have been posting on your boards derailing thread after thread. We are not asking for extra DPS when we are MT...we need it when off-tanking! Make it so without imbalancing the tanking equation with stances...an extra stance I don't care...whatever. And when we say that we want Equal DPS and Equal Utility...we don't mean we want all of your DPS, but it should be proportional to the tanking gap. Why is that so wrong? And Look, I am not even calling for a Nerf....most players don't like asking for nerfs on other classes. We just want to have fun with our class again.

01-04-2006, 10:16 AM	#52
a6eaq Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 137	Sniper is english you first language? Can you read? Do you have an IQ high enough to comprehend words that are more than 2 syllables long? I ask because you wrote: Here's another post for ya, [Removed for Content]. I just noticed what Gungo or someone said about using the max value of every combat art. You just took a bunch of numbers and slapped them together to paint guardians in the worst view possible when it comes to dps. Someone who really knows what they're doing should do a real comparison of same level, same quality arts for the various fighters classes instead of the bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you posted. Master1's (lvl 57) vs Adept1's (lvl 54). That's just outright [mentally challenged]. Let's see what was stated by the OP shall we? Please do not derail by picking apart the pairings. They are not the main purpose of this exercise, just a means to divide up the comparison between the two subclasses. (I guess this means that the OP knows these skills are not paired up skill for skill, but if you would understand his intent, you would have know that the pairings have NO bearing on the final numbers. But hey, if you can't read and comprehend, why should we think you can add and understand?) and: If you have images of the Guardian Master/Adept 3 arts (using appropriate stats) post them here and I'll try to cut and paste them in and adjust the values. (Well? Do you have any screenshots of the correct ability levels? Well do ya? Of course you don't. That would mean you would have to do a little research for yourself, and since you are more worried about name calling and acting like my two and a half year old kid you never will. Will you? Please do something that remotely looks like an adult behavior and prove me wrong by posting the correct shots yourself since you have a problem with them as they are.) Oh! and let's not forget: Most of these are Master 1 versus Adept 1 which does skew the results but this is all I have to work with. (This is the sentence immediately before the above quote. He took the abilities out of 2 seperate threads to more easily compare the two abilities. Yet, once again, if you would take time to read/ponder/comprehend the OP you would have gotten that as well since it was the opening line and I quote agan "Looking for a way to quantify how much damage output each subclass can produce, based on the two recent posts with the compiled images:" I left out the links to save space.) The pairings are not skill for skill, but when totalling the numbers, the adventure level each is attained at has absolutely no affect on the final totals. Do you remember A+B=B+A from math class? If you paid as much attention there as you do here, I am sure you totally freaked out on your math teacher about using letters to represent real world numbers instead just getting the point of the formula. Sure, the ability levels don't always add up ( Master to Adept). He knows that and so does everyone that actually paid attention to the post. You want actual numbers? Get the correct info and post it so we can see the actual difference between our classes DPS. Calling him a [Removed for Content] will get you nowhere. After all, are you so "[mentally challenged] " that you can't search our forums or talk to the friends you have online and get them so the post can be corrected? It seems to me that the point of the OP was asking for people to post the correct shots so that he could make a quality comparison. He just didn't have the correct information and wanted to make a single thread out of two seperate threads to ease the comparison between Guardians and Bruisers. Was that really that hard to understand? He had a good idea, and good intentions which is more than anyone can accuse you of in your post.

01-08-2006, 04:43 PM	#53
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	Skharr wrote:Grumy_Warrior_01 and Wasuna are probably the whiniest guardians atm, /medal. Woot! I won a medal from a brawler! That makes it extra special. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

01-08-2006, 07:43 PM	#54
daeneriez Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 66	Message Edited by daeneriez on 01-08-200603:44 PM __________________ Elisabetta Elysium Guild Hall (T2, Qeynos - Lucan D'Lere Server) Vyne's Place (One Room in the Willow Wood) Darkmere Manor (5 room manor in South Qeynos)

01-08-2006, 07:46 PM	#55
aislynn00 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 560	This entire thread is an exercise in pointlessness. You can't in any way compare the DPS output of the two classes by simply adding up the max damage of their combat arts. Apart from the fact that you don't end up hitting for max the same number of times when using two different combat arts, you are also completely ignoring many factors which further skew your findings dramatically. How about the raw DPS (i.e., raw damage, in this context) buff of bruisers (Stirring Cry) or the offensive skill buff of guardians? Against anything but high orange cons and red cons against which everyone misses frequently, the bruiser buff affords a much greater DPS payoff. What about the fact that guardians are tanking with a shield while bruisers are using dual wield weapons or, alternatively, a two-hander? If you want to look at soloing tough mobs, you are completely ignoring the significant advantage of being able to stun a mob, circle around it, stun it again, then hit it a few times in the back, thus circumventing parries, blocks, and ripostes. With a single 4 second stun, guardians can get in one single hit. Bruisers, meanwhile, sporting several stuns, excel in this tactic, thus giving them an even greater DPS advantage when soloing. Also, you are ignoring the fact that our DPS is dealt to a substantial extent over time while bruiser damage is usually all up front, meaning they actually get to apply all of that damage before the mob is dead. Conversely, it is a rare event that I see Hew and Relentless Charge actually last their full duration unless cast on a named heroic or an epic mob. Quarrel adds an additional chance to proc damage (as well as hate) on every single melee attack the bruiser makes. Furthermore, bruisers have inherently higher strength than we do, courtesy of their Battle Lust self-buff, at least as long as we don't adopt our offensive stance. Which brings us to the disparity between our offensive stances. There is simply no comparing the two classes in that regard; bruisers are leagues ahead of guardians, DPS-wise. And since the bruiser stance actually adds yet another a proc to all bruiser attacks, it, as well as Quarrel, works synergistically with AE attacks, and in particular, multi-strike combat arts such as Crushing Fury and Savage Blows. This is a major one, people. Bottom line, there is no point whatsoever in trying to compare theoretical DPS. If you want to get a clear picture of the actual DPS disparity between our respective classes, go out there and start logging and parsing equivalently geared bruisers and guardians in both offensive as well as defensive (and balanced) stances. It isn't a pretty sight. __________________ Karnoz Deviation Splitpaw

01-08-2006, 08:06 PM	#56
Ladicav Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 212	Good post. You raised valid points.

01-08-2006, 08:28 PM	#57
Grumpy_Warrior_01 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 528	aislynn00 I could not agree with you more, that you cannot simply look at combat art damage in a vacuum and presume to know whether one of the subclasses is working at an unspoken advantage. In my mind, when I started the thread, matching up the screenshots from two other posts and just kind of putting it out there without malice or motive seemed harmless enough. And I guess if the totals hadn't been so disparate, the non-guardian onslaught might have been less virulent. There is no question in my mind, none whatsoever, that bruisers on the whole are playing at a much more elevated level than guardians at this time, both in fact and in perception. And I can assure you, there is no question in the minds of the bruiser players either. Last year, there was a website (which was shut down when SOE stopped allowing XML feeds of the data) that kept semi-empirical tallies of how many of each race and subclass were on each server, and I used to visit there all the time. I remember there was not an all-servers tally, so you had to check each server individually. But in the majority of cases, over time, guardians were at or near the top in terms of population on every server, and by a wide margin. Guardians were easy and rewarding to play, and during the early months the subclass developed some positive associations, so it makes perfect sense. (Paladins (possibly due to the free horse) and templars were also in the top three in virtually every case also during that period before the horse nerf.) The evil races (and consequently the evil versions of the classes) consistently showed dramatically lower populations. My honest appraisal of this whole situation is that the game designers decided, or realized, that there were a lot more guardian characters being played than the other fighter subclasses, and the perceived and actual state of the fighter game has changed through the various live updates purely as a result of social engineering by the designers. It's possible that the game is not considered to be succeeding unless all the class populations are out there playing in relatively equal numbers, so this whole issue of class balancing, in that light, may in fact be one of population balance instead. My new baby brawler agrees.

01-09-2006, 10:03 AM	#58
kopingOwen Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 33	comparing bruiser vs guardian is quite hard you have noticed it seemsBruiser = a tank class that rely more on dps to hold aggro then taunting = therefor more damage output even tho i think the power output is about the sameGuardian = a tank class that rely more on taunting then doing damage to hold aggro = more taunts and less damage output..do this makes it easier for a bruiser to solo then a guardian? yes (only and idiot would argue that)do this makes it easier for the bruiser to tank in a grp? well here it gets tricky... if you look at raw numbers if both tanks were in defensive mode i would say that the guardian is better (by alot, therefor they inmplemented the semi defensive/offensive stance for brawler classess) cuz soe looked to equal all the fighter classes tanking ability vile they did not pay as much attention at the soloability..anyways There is alot of factors to include to get a fair and accurate comparison of the two that i think we have a hard time doing ittaunts, damage dealt, damage taken is the key factors of holding aggro..i´ve seen little of the damage taken factor in this thread...with this we come with the Plate vs Light armor deal aka mit vs avoidmit = reduces the damage taken by a sertan %avoid = giving a % chance to avoid damagenow usually the guardian takes alittle damage everytime therefore gaining aggro on a steady basis were the brawler in teory is taking less damage but when the brawler takes damage the damage is higher therefor a more burst type of aggro..Both classess have buffs and such to neglect this factor as much as possible aka taking damage but its still there since you are still taking damage right? (or else something is seriusly at error)I have not made any guardin but i had a bruiser i have a paladin so i know what tanking is all about..I think the problem is SOE created fighters that rely partly on damage to hold aggro... this makes an unfair advantage in the second tank position (no room for argue there is it?)Is there something we/soe can do to make this go away without nerfnig the brawlers totaly (taking away their semi offensive/defensive stance for example) IMO the awnser is NOhow do we solve the problem, simply upp the damage on guard... or maby not what will happen if we upp the damge for guard?I´ll tell youthere word you all knowBERSERKER yes upping the damage will only make a guard = berserker with better taunts and defensive buffs..tricky situation? yeseasy to solve? hell nowe need to find a solution that makes a guard second tanking ability more desirable.lets look at guardians key abilityTaking others damage, is it not?right now as soon a guardian tries to use these more often then not the guardian dies..my suggestion to the second taking is to fix these so the guard can acctuallt use these without making the healer go "HOLY SHAIT!"can we play with that?? like to hear if someone have a good fix on this "the guardians key ability"on how to solve the soloability.. I don´t have any good one =( don´t have any ideas to fix this wihtout making the guard do more damage...

01-09-2006, 10:05 AM	#59
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	grump instead of using the max value you should use the mid value since that is the most accurate value since damage on those comabt arts have a range and using the max value skews the results. Also the bruiser combat art Barbarous stomp uses the second dam Only. You do not add both values. The second value is the dam it does if you connect on a knockdown. The first value is the damage it does if you connect when the mob is not knocked down. Message Edited by Gungo on 01-08-200609:10 PM

01-10-2006, 06:10 PM	#60
Terron Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Reading, England Posts: 2,309	kopingOwen wrote:how do we solve the problem, simply upp the damage on guard... or maby not what will happen if we upp the damge for guard?I´ll tell youthere word you all knowBERSERKER yes upping the damage will only make a guard = berserker with better taunts and defensive buffs.. No - There is a big enough difference that the damage a guardian does can be increased whilst still leaving them far behind berserkers. tricky situation? yeseasy to solve? hell no I agree. we need to find a solution that makes a guard second tanking ability more desirable. Or gives them another role. lets look at guardians key abilityTaking others damage, is it not? That is debatable. Taking others damage is best done by being the tank and keeping aggro, but now that is the key ability of all fighters.Defending themseves and protecting others should be what the class is about. right now as soon a guardian tries to use these more often then not the guardian dies..my suggestion to the second taking is to fix these so the guard can acctuallt use these without making the healer go "HOLY SHAIT!"can we play with that?? like to hear if someone have a good fix on this "the guardians key ability" If transferred damage would kill a guardian give him a chance (25%?) of surving on 1% of health instead.And/or have a different line of abilities where the guard has a chance of intercepting a physical attack made on the protected target so that attack strikes the guard instead (and the guard gets to use his mitigation against it).As main tank this would only be useful as a limited insurance against losing aggro to the protected person, but it would allow a guardian to take some damage for someone else acting as main tank. on how to solve the soloability.. I don´t have any good one =( don´t have any ideas to fix this wihtout making the guard do more damage... Yes. The solution has to involve increasing guards DPS, without significantly improving the agrro that gives them when tanking. The obvious try is to improve guards offensive stance since in theory they should not be using that when tanking. Unfortunately it seems that the interaction with the HTL line means that the offensive stance gives better aggro control than the defensive one. I'm sure the defensive stance is supposed to be our tanking stance so maybe merging that with the HTL line would free up the offensive stance so that its DPS could be improved, though not to a berserkers level. Berserkers get a proc that can do extra damage to multiple targets. Perhaps guardians could be given one that did almost as much damage but only to a single target. __________________