Guardian Concerns

TunaBoo · 10-22-2005, 08:08 AM

We really are.

Go out and try to kill terrorantula. He is 100% guardian taunt immune. 100%. We can use rescue, and hold for about 30 seconds.. then we have nothing and the raid wiped.

MOBS SHOULD NOT BE IMMUNE TO OUR TAUNTS.

GUARDS SHOULD NOT HOLD AGGRO WORSE THEN EVERY OTHER CLASS.

FREAKING MAKES OUR TAUNTS WORK.

Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on 10-24-2005 09:59 AM

Xibi · 10-22-2005, 08:16 AM

That's sad. I'm guessing because the mob is still orange at lvl 60, taunts all get resisted? I know that my taunts hardly ever work on orange con mobs.

Spike · 10-22-2005, 08:19 AM

They changed it he is yellow at level 60 but guards still get resisted.

TunaBoo · 10-22-2005, 08:32 AM

He is yellow, and 100% taunt immune. Inflaming defense never hits. Protect doesnt hit. Confront doesnt hit.Unforgiving strike doesn't hit. Goading assault doesnt hit.

Ladicav · 10-22-2005, 08:33 AM

Although guardians are not the best-on-paper tank in every possible situation, they are the most stable and reliable tank in every fight. Tanking is not just avoiding and mitigating damage; it's holding aggro and helping the group recover from a bad situation. Those are the areas where the guardian excels, though they are also the hardest aspects of tanking to quantify or measure.

The nature of the guardian is perhaps to be the unsung hero, and it's understandable that such a role doesn't sit well with some folks. Especially compared to the way the system worked before, where guardians had a built-in demand over other fighters when it came to tanking. Though that unquestionable dependency may no longer be there, I think it will become more and more clear to other players (especially those who do a lot of DPS) just how useful it is to have a guardian as a tank.

Remember this from Moorgards Unsung Hero post? What rubbish.

How much of an agro magnet are you feeling like lately against orange cons or higher. Even Moorgards definition of guardians excelling at agro generation and holding is utter tripe so why should I even believe anything else he writes since it doesn't even come close to the reality of what guardians are facing. I've known about the absolute bastige of a time I have holding agro on anything orange con or higher since the release of LU13. But I am beyond caring now and considering rolling up another class instead of harping on about it.

Yes, guardians should have unresistable taunts, in all applications, maybe this is one of many utilities that could be added to give back for everything that was taken away.

How unsung hero like are you feeling these days Tuna?

Changing the con of the mob isn't a solution, it's the system that is broken, not the mobs.

TunaBoo · 10-22-2005, 08:35 AM

I am worthless, because they jacked up my class. BALANCE is not making the best class the worst, balance is balance.... I need taunts to function, but they are so subpar I am utterly worthless.

Greyto · 10-22-2005, 08:37 AM

So did the bruiser tank it?

TunaBoo · 10-22-2005, 08:39 AM

most guildes used a) zerker or b) pally who hacks their 40% hate trasnfer abil to put on all 5 ppl in grp. We don't hack, and out zerker isn't 60 yet.. so no one tanked it.

Gungo · 10-22-2005, 10:12 AM

Greytoon wrote :

So did the bruiser tank it?

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________

Haha nice try. so much brawler hate. FYI he is immune to our taunts too.

Tuna i thought HTL worked on him?

Message Edited by Gungo on 10-21-2005 11:14 PM

TunaBoo · 10-22-2005, 10:17 AM

Nope, HTL is resisted 100% also. I maybe landed 1 protect on him all night. Our monk taunts worked.. like 50% hit... but they aren't as geared as me so couldn't tank yet.

Airog · 10-22-2005, 10:18 AM

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Brawlers held aggro mainly, (not totally) through DPS? If that is so, brawler could have managed aggro decently, right?

Gungo · 10-22-2005, 10:26 AM

for one our dps is lower in defensive stance especially vs a high yellow con mobs whiel tanking and secondly there is about 10+ classes in game that do mroe dps then us. So if by your account we hold agro primarily by dps then we wouldnt be able to hold agro vs those 10 other classes.

and i have no idea why a monsk taunts would work as a bruiser i got the big ol' red immune sign above his head right before he squashed me.

Message Edited by Gungo on 10-21-2005 11:28 PM

Airog · 10-22-2005, 10:28 AM

For Brawler, DPS + taunts = Aggro.

For Guards, Taunts + DPS = Aggro.

Yes? No?

Gungo · 10-22-2005, 10:31 AM

ok vs terrorantuala taunts don't work

so damage alone while tanking in defensive stance won't hold agro.

heck even w no one doing dps reactives and wards would produce mroe agro then my dps.

lets see if we cna follow this concept

bruiser dps < wizard dps

wizard = dead

Bruiser dps < reactive agro

cleric =dead

bruiser dps < ward agro

shaman = dead

bruiser dps + taunts > reactive agro

cleric = alive

bruiser w/o taunt and just dps vs terrorantula = dead raid

Message Edited by Gungo on 10-21-2005 11:35 PM

Airog · 10-22-2005, 10:35 AM

On Terrorantula:

Brawler, DPS + taunts,

Guardian, taunts + DPS.

Either way, tank loses aggro, but does that look balanced?

Gungo · 10-22-2005, 10:38 AM

I guess so because now we both cant tank it

but wait there is a third fighter

crusader agro siphons off wizard

so paladin agro = wizard agro (well 40% really)

my question is how does a zerker hold agro

zerker do have more dps then bruisers while tanking, but no where near enuff dps to hodl the agro from wiping a raid.

Message Edited by Gungo on 10-21-2005 11:39 PM

TunaBoo · 10-22-2005, 10:41 AM

Bruiser and monk taunts land at 60, I guarentee. ask lavastorm.raijen or lavalstorm.slimm.

Airog · 10-22-2005, 10:45 AM

If monk/bruiser taunts land on terra, then:

Brawler, DPS + Taunts.

Guardian, DPS + Taunt.

BTW, I am just having fun doing this... =P

Gungo · 10-22-2005, 10:50 AM

Ill show you in game airoliz i get a big ol' red immune sign from my taunts rigth befor ehe kills me. My tautns dont work. Even my lvl 50 master 1 aoe taunt is immune.

I seriously thought he was immune to just castable taunts so i was hoping HTL would work since it was a proc, But apprantly we need a pally to tank him. Well the multi buff trick is getting fixed. So i got no clue.

Just read your last post tuna maybe its a lvl thing for me then.

So why didn't you have slimm tank it then?

Message Edited by Gungo on 10-21-2005 11:57 PM

Airog · 10-22-2005, 10:56 AM

I don't doubt you that he resists your taunt Gungo, just was going along with Tuna, saying level 60's didn't get resisted.

TunaBoo · 10-22-2005, 10:56 AM

60 brawlers are NOT immune. like 50% resisted yes.. but guards atr 95-99% resisted. Huge difference.

Message Edited by TunaBoo on 10-22-2005 01:57 AM

Gungo · 10-22-2005, 10:58 AM

Ok so why didnt slimm tank it ?

Airog · 10-22-2005, 10:59 AM

TunaBoo wrote:
60 brawlers are NOT immune. like 50% resisted yes.. but guards atr 95-99% resisted.

Huge difference.

Message Edited by TunaBoo on 10-22-2005 01:57 AM

Yeah, I think we both got that now. Thanks.

Airog · 10-22-2005, 11:00 AM

Gungo wrote:
Ok so why didnt slimm tank it ?

Didn't he say something up a few about his monks and/or bruiser were not geared adequately?

Gungo · 10-22-2005, 11:01 AM

Naw slimm is geared and he claims he is the best. But that is another story. Full adept 3 soem t6 masters full t6 legendary some t6 fabled and a few highend T6 treasured items. He shoul dbe mor ethen adequte to tank him then.

Message Edited by Gungo on 10-22-2005 12:02 AM

Airog · 10-22-2005, 11:01 AM

TunaBoo wrote:
Nope, HTL is resisted 100% also.

I maybe landed 1 protect on him all night.

Our monk taunts worked.. like 50% hit... but they aren't as geared as me so couldn't tank yet.

Ah, here.

Airog · 10-22-2005, 11:01 AM

Gungo wrote:
Naw slimm is geared and he claims he is the best. But that is another story.

Hm, got me then...

Skha · 10-22-2005, 11:07 AM

Gungo wrote:Ok so why didnt slimm tank it ?

They didn't tank it cos Terror hits 3.5k with auto attack with 70% mit so monk would be dead right after tsunami drops and bruiser would die after 3-3:30 min.

Gungo · 10-22-2005, 11:15 AM

dunno with the way gaurds tote bruisers as the godlike tank you would think liek you said 3-3:30 min would be enuff time to debuff the mob and get heros armour on the bruiser. So that this super bruiser can tank this raid mob. 3-3.5 min is mroe then enuff time for a good scout(or bard in mt group) to get the HO ac buff to stick along w enuff debuffs that. Mr super bruiser would do fine.

But wait are you saying you used tuna to tank because gaurds are better tanks? Seems odd to me you didn't use one of the best equipped bruisers on your server to tank.

Message Edited by Gungo on 10-22-2005 12:16 AM

TunaBoo · 10-22-2005, 11:16 AM

Yah when slimms 1 min 30 buff went down... hits were 6-9k range i think. with9k hp, you can't always live with a 6k hit.. a few bad hits and splat. he has 0 t6 fabled armor... master spells don't keep you alive from these things.

10-22-2005, 08:08 AM	#1
TunaBoo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,507	We really are. Go out and try to kill terrorantula. He is 100% guardian taunt immune. 100%. We can use rescue, and hold for about 30 seconds.. then we have nothing and the raid wiped. MOBS SHOULD NOT BE IMMUNE TO OUR TAUNTS. GUARDS SHOULD NOT HOLD AGGRO WORSE THEN EVERY OTHER CLASS. FREAKING MAKES OUR TAUNTS WORK. Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on 10-24-2005 09:59 AM __________________ www.spiralguild.com

10-22-2005, 08:19 AM	#3
Spike General Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 69	They changed it he is yellow at level 60 but guards still get resisted. __________________ 3rd level 70 Berserker on Nektulos

10-22-2005, 08:32 AM	#4
TunaBoo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,507	He is yellow, and 100% taunt immune. Inflaming defense never hits. Protect doesnt hit. Confront doesnt hit.Unforgiving strike doesn't hit. Goading assault doesnt hit. __________________ www.spiralguild.com

10-22-2005, 08:35 AM	#6
TunaBoo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,507	I am worthless, because they jacked up my class. BALANCE is not making the best class the worst, balance is balance.... I need taunts to function, but they are so subpar I am utterly worthless. __________________ www.spiralguild.com

10-22-2005, 08:39 AM	#8
TunaBoo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,507	most guildes used a) zerker or b) pally who hacks their 40% hate trasnfer abil to put on all 5 ppl in grp. We don't hack, and out zerker isn't 60 yet.. so no one tanked it. __________________ www.spiralguild.com

10-22-2005, 08:16 AM	#2
Xibi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 81	That's sad. I'm guessing because the mob is still orange at lvl 60, taunts all get resisted? I know that my taunts hardly ever work on orange con mobs.

10-22-2005, 08:33 AM	#5
Ladicav Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 212	Although guardians are not the best-on-paper tank in every possible situation, they are the most stable and reliable tank in every fight. Tanking is not just avoiding and mitigating damage; it's holding aggro and helping the group recover from a bad situation. Those are the areas where the guardian excels, though they are also the hardest aspects of tanking to quantify or measure. The nature of the guardian is perhaps to be the unsung hero, and it's understandable that such a role doesn't sit well with some folks. Especially compared to the way the system worked before, where guardians had a built-in demand over other fighters when it came to tanking. Though that unquestionable dependency may no longer be there, I think it will become more and more clear to other players (especially those who do a lot of DPS) just how useful it is to have a guardian as a tank. Remember this from Moorgards Unsung Hero post? What rubbish. How much of an agro magnet are you feeling like lately against orange cons or higher. Even Moorgards definition of guardians excelling at agro generation and holding is utter tripe so why should I even believe anything else he writes since it doesn't even come close to the reality of what guardians are facing. I've known about the absolute bastige of a time I have holding agro on anything orange con or higher since the release of LU13. But I am beyond caring now and considering rolling up another class instead of harping on about it. Yes, guardians should have unresistable taunts, in all applications, maybe this is one of many utilities that could be added to give back for everything that was taken away. How unsung hero like are you feeling these days Tuna? Changing the con of the mob isn't a solution, it's the system that is broken, not the mobs.

10-22-2005, 08:37 AM	#7
Greyto Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 203	So did the bruiser tank it?

10-22-2005, 10:12 AM	#9
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	Greytoon wrote : So did the bruiser tank it? __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________ Haha nice try. so much brawler hate. FYI he is immune to our taunts too. Tuna i thought HTL worked on him? Message Edited by Gungo on 10-21-2005 11:14 PM

10-22-2005, 10:17 AM	#10
TunaBoo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,507	Nope, HTL is resisted 100% also. I maybe landed 1 protect on him all night. Our monk taunts worked.. like 50% hit... but they aren't as geared as me so couldn't tank yet. __________________ www.spiralguild.com

10-22-2005, 10:18 AM	#11
Airog Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 317	Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Brawlers held aggro mainly, (not totally) through DPS? If that is so, brawler could have managed aggro decently, right?

10-22-2005, 10:26 AM	#12
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	for one our dps is lower in defensive stance especially vs a high yellow con mobs whiel tanking and secondly there is about 10+ classes in game that do mroe dps then us. So if by your account we hold agro primarily by dps then we wouldnt be able to hold agro vs those 10 other classes. and i have no idea why a monsk taunts would work as a bruiser i got the big ol' red immune sign above his head right before he squashed me. Message Edited by Gungo on 10-21-2005 11:28 PM

10-22-2005, 10:28 AM	#13
Airog Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 317	For Brawler, DPS + taunts = Aggro. For Guards, Taunts + DPS = Aggro. Yes? No?

10-22-2005, 10:31 AM	#14
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	ok vs terrorantuala taunts don't work so damage alone while tanking in defensive stance won't hold agro. heck even w no one doing dps reactives and wards would produce mroe agro then my dps. lets see if we cna follow this concept bruiser dps < wizard dps wizard = dead Bruiser dps < reactive agro cleric =dead bruiser dps < ward agro shaman = dead bruiser dps + taunts > reactive agro cleric = alive bruiser w/o taunt and just dps vs terrorantula = dead raid Message Edited by Gungo on 10-21-2005 11:35 PM

10-22-2005, 10:35 AM	#15
Airog Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 317	On Terrorantula: Brawler, DPS + taunts, Guardian, taunts + DPS. Either way, tank loses aggro, but does that look balanced?

10-22-2005, 10:38 AM	#16
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	I guess so because now we both cant tank it but wait there is a third fighter crusader agro siphons off wizard so paladin agro = wizard agro (well 40% really) my question is how does a zerker hold agro zerker do have more dps then bruisers while tanking, but no where near enuff dps to hodl the agro from wiping a raid. Message Edited by Gungo on 10-21-2005 11:39 PM

10-22-2005, 10:41 AM	#17
TunaBoo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,507	Bruiser and monk taunts land at 60, I guarentee. ask lavastorm.raijen or lavalstorm.slimm. __________________ www.spiralguild.com

10-22-2005, 10:45 AM	#18
Airog Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 317	If monk/bruiser taunts land on terra, then: Brawler, DPS + Taunts. Guardian, DPS + Taunt. BTW, I am just having fun doing this... =P

10-22-2005, 10:50 AM	#19
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	Ill show you in game airoliz i get a big ol' red immune sign from my taunts rigth befor ehe kills me. My tautns dont work. Even my lvl 50 master 1 aoe taunt is immune. I seriously thought he was immune to just castable taunts so i was hoping HTL would work since it was a proc, But apprantly we need a pally to tank him. Well the multi buff trick is getting fixed. So i got no clue. Just read your last post tuna maybe its a lvl thing for me then. So why didn't you have slimm tank it then? Message Edited by Gungo on 10-21-2005 11:57 PM

10-22-2005, 10:56 AM	#20
Airog Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 317	I don't doubt you that he resists your taunt Gungo, just was going along with Tuna, saying level 60's didn't get resisted.

10-22-2005, 10:58 AM	#22
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	Ok so why didnt slimm tank it ?

10-22-2005, 10:59 AM	#23
Airog Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 317	TunaBoo wrote: 60 brawlers are NOT immune. like 50% resisted yes.. but guards atr 95-99% resisted. Huge difference. Message Edited by TunaBoo on 10-22-2005 01:57 AM Yeah, I think we both got that now. Thanks.

10-22-2005, 11:00 AM	#24
Airog Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 317	Gungo wrote: Ok so why didnt slimm tank it ? Didn't he say something up a few about his monks and/or bruiser were not geared adequately?

10-22-2005, 11:01 AM	#25
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	Naw slimm is geared and he claims he is the best. But that is another story. Full adept 3 soem t6 masters full t6 legendary some t6 fabled and a few highend T6 treasured items. He shoul dbe mor ethen adequte to tank him then. Message Edited by Gungo on 10-22-2005 12:02 AM

10-22-2005, 11:01 AM	#26
Airog Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 317	TunaBoo wrote: Nope, HTL is resisted 100% also. I maybe landed 1 protect on him all night. Our monk taunts worked.. like 50% hit... but they aren't as geared as me so couldn't tank yet. Ah, here.

10-22-2005, 11:01 AM	#27
Airog Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 317	Gungo wrote: Naw slimm is geared and he claims he is the best. But that is another story. Hm, got me then...

10-22-2005, 11:07 AM	#28
Skha Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 117	Gungo wrote:Ok so why didnt slimm tank it ? They didn't tank it cos Terror hits 3.5k with auto attack with 70% mit so monk would be dead right after tsunami drops and bruiser would die after 3-3:30 min.

10-22-2005, 11:15 AM	#29
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	dunno with the way gaurds tote bruisers as the godlike tank you would think liek you said 3-3:30 min would be enuff time to debuff the mob and get heros armour on the bruiser. So that this super bruiser can tank this raid mob. 3-3.5 min is mroe then enuff time for a good scout(or bard in mt group) to get the HO ac buff to stick along w enuff debuffs that. Mr super bruiser would do fine. But wait are you saying you used tuna to tank because gaurds are better tanks? Seems odd to me you didn't use one of the best equipped bruisers on your server to tank. Message Edited by Gungo on 10-22-2005 12:16 AM

10-22-2005, 11:16 AM	#30
TunaBoo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,507	Yah when slimms 1 min 30 buff went down... hits were 6-9k range i think. with9k hp, you can't always live with a 6k hit.. a few bad hits and splat. he has 0 t6 fabled armor... master spells don't keep you alive from these things. __________________ www.spiralguild.com