Maddening Defense - Does it work, how do you know?

Aven Elonis · 10-19-2005, 07:38 PM

For laughs and giggles, I decided to check my log after using Maddening Defense on a simple encounter.

I see You assume a maddening defensive posture. in my log.

But after that no other indication that when the bad guy hits me, that MD kicked in aggro or not. Per the spell - a 50% chance of aggro when I get hit.

So how do I know the spell did it's thing? SMILEY

Aven Elonis

56 Guardian, Tempest, Steamfont

Raahl · 10-19-2005, 07:39 PM

The only way I know is if you get the little fire taunt animation on the heads of the mobs.

Nothing gets put in the log.

eqtaka · 10-19-2005, 08:08 PM

This is a great skill for Guardian. We need more things like this IMHO. I'm doing a bit of testing with Tank types. I have a 52 Guardian, a 44 Zerker, and 2 lower tanks, 22 Monk and Bruiser incoming. All tank types have a direct taunt and AE taunt on a timer ( everyone knows this ). It would seem the damage type tanks, zerker and the brawler line, maintain agro from the damage they do along with their taunt line. That's great for single target mobs and peeling.

IMHO this is where a Guardian can shine at times. Maddenng Defense is a group encounter affect and building hate, mana free, is situationally an advantage. For damage type tanks, I can maintain agro by target switching a lot with my zerker or brawlers but that can sometimes get complicated especially if your engaged in multiple groups at one time. Perhaps you having an off day. You have to be slick and a good memory to maintain that agro when mana is low and another group of 5 add on.

Aven Elonis · 10-19-2005, 08:13 PM

Not saying it isn't a good spell. (Although I really don't like the root part)

I'm asking how do you know it worked.

Considering Taunts can be resisted, I'd like to be able to determine the effectiveness of the spell.

As my Mig does up, things do and will hit me less, therefore affecting the likelyhood of this spell working.

Aven Elonis

56 Guardian, Tempest, Steamfont

Etherium · 10-19-2005, 08:14 PM

Maddening Defense does not appear to be power free. Every time it fires, it seems to use up some of the caster's power.

sylvo · 10-19-2005, 08:16 PM

The problem with Maddening defense is that it is of 0 use when you have lost aggro. If a wizard accidentally peels you have to hope that rescue is up else the mob will be dead before you can get aggro back, this is obviously a pita in normal group situations however can be potentially much more costly when tanking a large raid mob. Especially given you will have to knock off multiple root effects before going to fetch the mob.

Aven Elonis · 10-19-2005, 08:23 PM

Valid point, MD may be good at holding aggro, but once lost, only Rescue or maybe Reinforcement will get it back.

But wait, I have to drop MD, generally to get close enough to use Rescue. SMILEY

I wonder if built up aggro is lost when spell is drop or not, hmmm.....

Aven Elonis

56 Gaurdian, Tempest, Steamfont

eqtaka · 10-19-2005, 08:49 PM

Based on what Ive been testing, yes It works. I never get heal agro issues when I put maddening defense down with my Guardian. With my DPS tank types, they do have this problem ( heal agro ). For my DPS tank types I have to switch targets in order to keep the multiple mobs off my healer. I test this in a duo situation BTW. With enough damage dealers or healers to spread the agro out, it affects the tests.

Ive never noticed that maddening defense triggering uses mana. Im not saying it doesn't. I just never noitced that. Thanks for the tip ) I will have to say that against power drain type mobs the skill does seem to keep working. The beasties in Nek 2 for example. They hit hard and have plenty of hit points. Maddening Defense prevents healer agro for sure and everytime. I have had my Dirge steal agro at times like this. I have no mana to enhance my damage or taunts so over time he takes agro away. This is where maddening defense fails since it only works when your getting hit.

Raahl · 10-19-2005, 09:13 PM

Maddening Defense does drain power each time the taunt procs. I've done tests where only MD was up and I wasn't attacking or anything else. Right after a taunt from MD went off, my power went down.

Landiin · 10-19-2005, 11:42 PM

MD is a good spell and I wouldn't really mind the root side effect if it had more hate assigned to it. There are three drawbacks to MD really. 1. the mob has to hit you 2. you have to make the 50/50 roll 3. You have to make the resist ceck roll. I hear people say DPS keeps hate by dps and taunts and we keep hate by MD and taunts but I know for fact that I don't make the check vs one of the three list far more then I miss a mob with AT or a CA. I can see why we are rooted becase we're sort of dug in, makeing the mob/encouter mad. Up the % chance to fire to like 80%-85% chance and it would solve most agro issues besides for the person going all. Adding a

rescue tupe agent to our protection line but maybe not quite a strong would be a good over all impovement to agro control also.

Raahl · 10-20-2005, 12:33 AM

Landiin wrote:
MD is a good spell and I wouldn't really mind the root side effect if it had more hate assigned to it. There are three drawbacks to MD really. 1. the mob has to hit you 2. you have to make the 50/50 roll 3. You have to make the resist ceck roll. I hear people say DPS keeps hate by dps and taunts and we keep hate by MD and taunts but I know for fact that I don't make the check vs one of the three list far more then I miss a mob with AT or a CA. I can see why we are rooted becase we're sort of dug in, makeing the mob/encouter mad. Up the % chance to fire to like 80%-85% chance and it would solve most agro issues besides for the person going all. Adding a
rescue tupe agent to our protection line but maybe not quite a strong would be a good over all impovement to agro control also.

Can the taunt from MD get resisted? I've never paid attention.

Aven Elonis · 10-20-2005, 01:30 AM

As I understood it, all Taunts could be resisted.

Hence the orginal question - How do you know it is working? No messages in chat or log, one way or the other. Is it a better or worst taunt from a resist respective than any other taunt?

This was not intended to really be a debate about whether MD is or isn't a decent spell or what should be changed about it. SMILEY

Aven Elonis

56 Guardian, Tempest, Steamfont

TunaBoo · 10-20-2005, 06:51 AM

It will show up in your chat log, look at outgoing spells. You see the words HOLDING THE LINE every so often.. that is the proc part of out defensive taunt proc. It does get resisted at times, and doesn't go off if u are warded = crap on raids.

Message Edited by TunaBoo on 10-19-2005 09:53 PM

Baldaena · 10-20-2005, 12:45 PM

I will check the message for HTL, I haven't seen it.

Besides, with high avoidance (raid buff), slow, stun, ward, slashing debuff (and others melee debuff), MD is less effective... MD should be checked every time a mob try to hit us (and not when he succeeds...)

10-19-2005, 07:38 PM	#1
Aven Elonis Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 273	For laughs and giggles, I decided to check my log after using Maddening Defense on a simple encounter. I see You assume a maddening defensive posture. in my log. But after that no other indication that when the bad guy hits me, that MD kicked in aggro or not. Per the spell - a 50% chance of aggro when I get hit. So how do I know the spell did it's thing? Aven Elonis 56 Guardian, Tempest, Steamfont

10-19-2005, 07:39 PM	#2
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	The only way I know is if you get the little fire taunt animation on the heads of the mobs. Nothing gets put in the log. __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger

10-19-2005, 08:08 PM	#3
eqtaka Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 17	This is a great skill for Guardian. We need more things like this IMHO. I'm doing a bit of testing with Tank types. I have a 52 Guardian, a 44 Zerker, and 2 lower tanks, 22 Monk and Bruiser incoming. All tank types have a direct taunt and AE taunt on a timer ( everyone knows this ). It would seem the damage type tanks, zerker and the brawler line, maintain agro from the damage they do along with their taunt line. That's great for single target mobs and peeling. IMHO this is where a Guardian can shine at times. Maddenng Defense is a group encounter affect and building hate, mana free, is situationally an advantage. For damage type tanks, I can maintain agro by target switching a lot with my zerker or brawlers but that can sometimes get complicated especially if your engaged in multiple groups at one time. Perhaps you having an off day. You have to be slick and a good memory to maintain that agro when mana is low and another group of 5 add on. __________________ Emerald Harmony Guild Leader - AB Server

10-19-2005, 08:23 PM	#7
Aven Elonis Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 273	Valid point, MD may be good at holding aggro, but once lost, only Rescue or maybe Reinforcement will get it back. But wait, I have to drop MD, generally to get close enough to use Rescue. I wonder if built up aggro is lost when spell is drop or not, hmmm..... Aven Elonis 56 Gaurdian, Tempest, Steamfont

10-19-2005, 08:49 PM	#8
eqtaka Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 17	Based on what Ive been testing, yes It works. I never get heal agro issues when I put maddening defense down with my Guardian. With my DPS tank types, they do have this problem ( heal agro ). For my DPS tank types I have to switch targets in order to keep the multiple mobs off my healer. I test this in a duo situation BTW. With enough damage dealers or healers to spread the agro out, it affects the tests. Ive never noticed that maddening defense triggering uses mana. Im not saying it doesn't. I just never noitced that. Thanks for the tip ) I will have to say that against power drain type mobs the skill does seem to keep working. The beasties in Nek 2 for example. They hit hard and have plenty of hit points. Maddening Defense prevents healer agro for sure and everytime. I have had my Dirge steal agro at times like this. I have no mana to enhance my damage or taunts so over time he takes agro away. This is where maddening defense fails since it only works when your getting hit. __________________ Emerald Harmony Guild Leader - AB Server

10-19-2005, 08:13 PM	#4
Aven Elonis Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 273	Not saying it isn't a good spell. (Although I really don't like the root part) I'm asking how do you know it worked. Considering Taunts can be resisted, I'd like to be able to determine the effectiveness of the spell. As my Mig does up, things do and will hit me less, therefore affecting the likelyhood of this spell working. Aven Elonis 56 Guardian, Tempest, Steamfont

10-19-2005, 08:14 PM	#5
Etherium Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 91	Maddening Defense does not appear to be power free. Every time it fires, it seems to use up some of the caster's power.

10-19-2005, 08:16 PM	#6
sylvo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 79	The problem with Maddening defense is that it is of 0 use when you have lost aggro. If a wizard accidentally peels you have to hope that rescue is up else the mob will be dead before you can get aggro back, this is obviously a pita in normal group situations however can be potentially much more costly when tanking a large raid mob. Especially given you will have to knock off multiple root effects before going to fetch the mob.

10-19-2005, 09:13 PM	#9
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	Maddening Defense does drain power each time the taunt procs. I've done tests where only MD was up and I wasn't attacking or anything else. Right after a taunt from MD went off, my power went down. __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger

10-19-2005, 11:42 PM	#10
Landiin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,749	MD is a good spell and I wouldn't really mind the root side effect if it had more hate assigned to it. There are three drawbacks to MD really. 1. the mob has to hit you 2. you have to make the 50/50 roll 3. You have to make the resist ceck roll. I hear people say DPS keeps hate by dps and taunts and we keep hate by MD and taunts but I know for fact that I don't make the check vs one of the three list far more then I miss a mob with AT or a CA. I can see why we are rooted becase we're sort of dug in, makeing the mob/encouter mad. Up the % chance to fire to like 80%-85% chance and it would solve most agro issues besides for the person going all. Adding a rescue tupe agent to our protection line but maybe not quite a strong would be a good over all impovement to agro control also. __________________

10-20-2005, 12:33 AM	#11
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	Landiin wrote: MD is a good spell and I wouldn't really mind the root side effect if it had more hate assigned to it. There are three drawbacks to MD really. 1. the mob has to hit you 2. you have to make the 50/50 roll 3. You have to make the resist ceck roll. I hear people say DPS keeps hate by dps and taunts and we keep hate by MD and taunts but I know for fact that I don't make the check vs one of the three list far more then I miss a mob with AT or a CA. I can see why we are rooted becase we're sort of dug in, makeing the mob/encouter mad. Up the % chance to fire to like 80%-85% chance and it would solve most agro issues besides for the person going all. Adding a rescue tupe agent to our protection line but maybe not quite a strong would be a good over all impovement to agro control also. Can the taunt from MD get resisted? I've never paid attention. __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger

10-20-2005, 01:30 AM	#12
Aven Elonis Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 273	As I understood it, all Taunts could be resisted. Hence the orginal question - How do you know it is working? No messages in chat or log, one way or the other. Is it a better or worst taunt from a resist respective than any other taunt? This was not intended to really be a debate about whether MD is or isn't a decent spell or what should be changed about it. Aven Elonis 56 Guardian, Tempest, Steamfont

10-20-2005, 06:51 AM	#13
TunaBoo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,507	It will show up in your chat log, look at outgoing spells. You see the words HOLDING THE LINE every so often.. that is the proc part of out defensive taunt proc. It does get resisted at times, and doesn't go off if u are warded = crap on raids. Message Edited by TunaBoo on 10-19-2005 09:53 PM __________________ www.spiralguild.com

10-20-2005, 12:45 PM	#14
Baldaena Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 247	I will check the message for HTL, I haven't seen it. Besides, with high avoidance (raid buff), slow, stun, ward, slashing debuff (and others melee debuff), MD is less effective... MD should be checked every time a mob try to hit us (and not when he succeeds...)