Guardian MT or nothing .... still ....

[MrDiz]

Here is an interesting development: In guild a group getting together for roost. I ask to join but they already have a tank (paladin 2 levels higher) and dont need another. A monk logs on, they immediately invite him. Whats worse? I totally understand why.

 

Guardians always had this problem tho. The price of being the pure tank was if they already had one, or a paladin a few levels higher, u pretty much had no place. Now we have some group buffs which can help, but on the whole really noone cares. Now all things are equal and we are all balanced, and yet this is still the case. Noone really wants a guardian MT if they have a pally or monk option, especially since Sonys admittance of the superiority of those fighters in tanking, but certainly wont take them as a non-tank.

 

Now we all know why. No dps. But I point this out as a counter argument to the conspiracy theorists saying Guardians ruled the world. Guardians always had this problem. There was many many downsides to the clarity of purpose.

[Colossaltitan]

No point in replying, because there is nothing I can do but /agree.

[Nemi]

Couple of points.

 

Previously Guardians didn't get an invite if there was a Guardian in the group. Occasionally happened but there were FAR less Guardians LFG than other fighters.

 

Secondly, if you would all ask for DPS and utility increases then you would be a viable offtank, certainly with your formidable group buffs.

 

Thirdly, asking for defense and mitigation increases would not solve this problem, you still wouldn't get a group spot if there was a Guardian in the group.

 

 

[Wasuna]

---

Nemi wrote:

Couple of points.

 

Previously Guardians didn't get an invite if there was a Guardian in the group. Occasionally happened but there were FAR less Guardians LFG than other fighters.

 

Secondly, if you would all ask for DPS and utility increases then you would be a viable offtank, certainly with your formidable group buffs.

 

Thirdly, asking for defense and mitigation increases would not solve this problem, you still wouldn't get a group spot if there was a Guardian in the group.

 

 

---

We have asked for balance. Some in one way, others in another way. In the end we want balance and right now we DO NOT hace it. If you have something to add to that then please do.

[NighthawkX]

If I was in charge of picking that group and already had the paladin for a tank and my choice was a lower level guardian or lower level monk.  I would pick the guardian.  Monks used to excell at damage compared to everyone and lot of people still believe they are on par damage wise as the scouts and mages but they aren't anymore, they took a damage cut while scouts and mages all went up.

The guardian would make the paladin a heck of a lot stronger than what the monk can do.  If you and the monk were roughly the same level I think the group made a bad choice or other factors played a roll.  In my oppinion Guardians are the best main assist well maybe Paladins if you are low on healing but the group already has Mt of a Paladin.

Again this is assuming your going after stuff worthwhile at least white heroics and up.  If not than the extra defense isn't worth just getting the job done.

[Creppie]

So they didn't let you join because they already had a tank?  That's pretty sad to turn down a guild member who wants to join no matter the class, but I guess all guilds are different.   We did the roost with 2 guardians, scout, inquisitor, fury, and necro.  Didn't see a problem having two guardians in there.Sounds like the problem is that your guild only likes perfect group setups when then exp and not a guardian issue.

[Krooner]

As long as there is one fighter "Sexier" then the rest it WILL be a Guardian issue.

Thanks for the catch phrase MG

 

[Gungo]

Question what lvl was the monk?

Roost is a lvl 58-59 zone so in effect even if u did dps much of that will be resisted vs orange and high con yellow mobs. 4-5 lvl above you.

 

Maybe someone in the group just didn't want you to join dunno.

 

[MrDiz]

It wasnt a level thing, it was a what can you do for us thing. They were pretty up front about it. And it wasnt personality cos my templar joined them.

[NighthawkX]

I would say if the monk was only 54 they made a bad mistake as his dps would be craptastic in a 58+ zone.  Yes so would of yours but the buffs to the group you would of provided far outweight the buffs the monk would of provided.  Now if he was  56 57+ than it was a wise idea as he would of been provideing a heck of a lot more damage than you would of.  Also maybe they were wanting you to bring your templar alot more.

Also people will take templars into a group even if they are much lower as there skills majorily are not dependent on the level of what you are fighting, you don't have to worry about resists etc since its mostly on the group.  Low level dps people though won't cut it as what they provide will drop through the floor, just like a low tank will drop through the floor as he is pounded on.

[Creppie]

Ok, so you joined them with your templar.  So they needed a healer more then they needed another tank.  Doesn't sound like guardian hate to me.  Sounds like they wanted more healage.  All the self loathing from many of these guardians depresses me. :smileysad:

[Colossaltitan]

I believe he said they invited a monk when they wouldn't invite a Guardian.

[MrDiz]

Yes Col thats exactly what I said. Im beginning to believe a lot of people cannot read on these forums.

[MrDiz]

Nemi you 1000% missed the point of the post. Your reply proves beyonda doubt you dont understand anything beyond your own motivational imperatives. Yes, guardians always had this problem. Yes, a guardian could not join a group unless he was gonna be MT because he was next to useless at anything else.

My point wasnt that I disliked this, just that its a downside to being such a focused 'pure tank'. If your not tanking, your useless. its the price you paid.

Pointed it out because people seem to thing the preDoF guardian was some sort of superman in all ways. Cant Dps, Cant Mez, Can tank a little. Get the message now? In fact not only did we not mind this downside, it was part of the character. It made it what it was. Thats all you did.

[Creppie]

So how many healers did you end up in your group?  You seem to like to only give half the facts unless questioned.  It's much easier to say no one wants guardians anymore then to say,  "oh by the way I had a templar they wanted in the group instead".   How hard is it to understand that maybe they could get another fighter class easier then another healer?If you lay out all the facts in the first place then we don't have to go through the 20 questions game to get down the the truth of why the didn't want your guardian.   Could we not infer that they traded out having a guardian in the group for a templar and  a monk?  Were there any other healers in your guild looking for a group at the time?  There are lots of explanations other then they don't value guardians anymore.

[Danan]

So wait a second here?

Did you want to two box and they picked another player over your second box?

[thargnar]

In a well balanced xp group an extra guardian is worthless as teats on a boar hog. You make the tank a little tougher, you buff his hp minimally, and add a smidge more offence. You may add one or two effective levels to the main tank and can reduce aggro on one troublemaker and use your suicide pact intercept stuff on a few casters etc, but its a very minimal gain. A guard is better than an empty spot, but honestly, what person in thier right mind can say they would take a guard over a brawler as offtank? There are certain specific uses for a guard offtank, but not everyday playing. The OPs point is that the guard still has a pretty narrowly defined useful role, but now that he isnt the obvious choice for it anymore he has to compete with all fighter classes for MT role, and if he doesnt get it, he is far less useful than a class able to dps/heal/etc as well.

[MrDiz]

jeez Creppie its not complicated and it didint need the thrid degree. It was a simple observation of fact. Guards are pretty much useless unless MT. Always have been, still are and in my humble opinion always should be. This is NOT a complaint about this situation. Its very very easy: They didnt want the guardian because they already had a better tank (better class, higher level). But they accepted a monk, similar level, and he wasnt replacing the tank. he was there for some dps. They already had 2 healers including me, so it wasnt that they needed another healer (already had 2) or they didnt like me, cos they already had me. They just wanted someone useful. How do I know this? THEY TOLD ME! duh! "Sorry Tiz, need some more dps, gonna wait for someone else to log on". How much simpler can this be?

 

But this is besides the point. Its always been this way. Unless a guardian joins a group and takes over as MT he is useless. We were ok with that. That was part of being a pure tank. its bad side. A down side. A factor that is not positive. Something to consider when balancing. Just pointing out that being the best tank but nothing but the tank was not all roses and happy prancing. You got one thing but sacrificed another. You didnt get it all.

(*Unlike now of course, where its possible to have the tanking, the dps and the utility all in one neat package. *)

 

Do people deliberately confuse the issue or is it a talent?

[NighthawkX]

Me in a heart beat, your group weapon skill buff is more damage beneficial when the group is fighting things higher level than themselves than the small haste(monk), dps(bruiser) that they offer for groupc they have huge self ones, if you are fighting lower level stuff those are better but on higher than you stuff I say your adding more damage to the group wise because your making the group able to make contact more, if you keep always missing doesn't matter how hard you can hit.  And if the monk was level 54 trying to fight heroic 58+ creatures will not provide great  damage to the group.  The guardian is providing a mitigation bonus, an avoidance bonus, an hp bonus that as I have tested the avoidance bonus is pretty significant on those who aren't capping there defense already(I have a troubador same spell if they don't cap defense your highest one at master II is 19.5 granted you likely won't have it but the 16.0 one is reasonble  at 11.5 for my troubadors it added 5% avoidance to others in group.)  I don't consider them small or insignificant.  As for the protect lines I don't think they should add to the damage of the group and mitigation should be based on the caster not target, not great but can help.  And those are going to the whole group so the scouts can avoid/mitigate more of the aoe trauma that is way more common now on mobs, and if things happen to go bad you provided a couple of rounds for the MT to gain control back, sometimes that is all that is needed.

Again In a 6 man group fighting tougher stuff, I would pick a guardian as MA over a monk.  Now in smaller groups fighting weaker creatures specially if the group is missing heavy hitters(Ie Warlocks) I would take the monk.

[Buggrit]

its obivous they needed another healer and they invited monk because the monk can atleast do some dps while pally tanks /shrug its not that hard to see no one hates u there has been a dramatic  decrease in healers and tanks on kith tho auctally theres been a dramatic decrease on the server lol seems people only wanna play scouts n mages now 0.o btw if they gave u guards more dps wouldn't that make u Berserkers? sort of

[NighthawkX]

By the way what level was the monk?

[thargnar]

I take your point Nighthawk, but the offence buff only matters for melee classes, Id say 70% of the groups im in have 2 healers, a tank, and three casters, occasionally I group with a swashy or brigand friend, but meat and potatoes is the casters doing damage so the attack buff doesnt do squat in that situation, and if you had say a pally main and replaced any one of the other classes with a guard then its just affecting you and the pally, not much of a dps gain. Even if you do have a scout in the group, its still only you the scout and tank benifiting. A dirge brings far more to the table for buffing damage etc, but between additional tanks, the choice between brawler and guard is fairly obvious, tons more dps, ability to prevent group wipe with fd, can tank equally well for adds or just mez/fear them. I love having our bruiser in a group with me, and if he was higher level he would mt, but as it is his ability to fear a named while we wipe thier little minions out, save a wipe in an instance zone with a lockout using his fd, and dps/stuns make him an obvious choice over a guard. The only problem I have with a bruiser in a group with me is the fact that I have to put my hate reducer on him instead of the nuker and he still steals aggro more than anyone else without using taunts.

[Bock]

I realy didnt feel like posting on this but realy cant belive not a single person gets the point hes trying to make here, its so bloody simple.

Befor or after the update certian tank classes fit into grps in differnt rolls

Guardian TANK. no other reason to ever have this class in your grp peroid

Bruiser, Tank, Dps

Monk, Tank, Dps

Zerk, Tank, Dps(not dps so much anymore sence while not tanking they take a large decress on dps), posibly utility(huge str buff if its a scout heavy grp would be very useful not to mention berserk)

Pld, Tank, Dps(again not so much anymore), Utility(healing)

Sk, Tank, Dps(same not to much anymore but just like pld and zerk would be taken anyday over a guard for dps roll if the choice is there)

 

All hes trying to say is the only time a guardian ever got a grp was if he was needed to tank while all other fighters did and do have other reasons to be in a grp besides the MT slot, and personaly if your trying to get mobs dead as fast as posible a guardian should never have been top choice in an Xp grp seeing as there dmg is pathetic.

If you already had a tank in grp why would you take a guard when you could have a healer or dps, this is his simple point i cant belive how blind you all have been.

[MrDiz]

Thankyou Bock. Nice to know someone is paying attention And for the man that wants to know the level of the monk, it was 55. 1 lvl higher than me. The group ranged from 51 to 57. If you try to tell me that a 54 guardian is not welcome but a 55 monk is because of the level no class Ill laugh my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off at you. If id been a 54 monk they would have taken me instantly.There is no guesswork here. We know why they didnt want that character. We know it for a fact. We really dont need to discuss it. The point is: thats the disadvantage to a class like guardians. All classes should have downsides.

[NighthawkX]

There is another desire as well for groups besides killing the mob and that is staying alive.  You can have all dps in a group but if they can't stay alive doesn't matter the group sucks.  As for just a Mt, that would imply that the value of one Mt can provide all the staying alive power that is possible or neccessary, and obviously it isn't as we need to usually least add a healer, and usually that isn't enough you may have to add another healer, or a crowd control person, or a buffer(IE your utility), or a damage debuffer etc.  A lot of guardians feel they offer no other value to a group and I find this to be a false belief.  Yes your best asset is tank but not your only asset, and you still provide some damage granted on the low end but its some.

I understand what the original poster was stating i just happen to dissagree with the premise.  And am not sure of the whole story if it was a level 57+ monk theres a big difference claiming similar levels what does that mean, obviously not 54 as they would of said the same level.  If the monk was say level 53 than in my oppinion the group would have been dumb to take the monk for the group over a 54 guardian unless other mitigating factors were involved IE they wanted another healer more(actually with two already  haveing more defense would of allowed the existing two to have to heal less but oh well some people don't learn.

 

I was in a group today that chose a 53 guardian to tank over a 57 berserker, I didn't argue but the whole time I am thinking what are you thinking the 57 berserker is going to be a lot better tank, level means a heck of a lot,  there would have to be an extreme difference equipment, spells, skill etc for the 53 guardian to compare.  Luckily we were only fighting things in the mid 50's so we did fine although we lost our Mt once in the night(53 guardian), but start putting them in the high 50's and we wouldn't of been able to keep the 53 alive but the 57 berserker would of handled it.  Groups don't always make the best decisions.

Now I was only comparing if you were going to have a Ma at all and those were your choices.  Obviously a group can run fine and often better without one at all.  Understanding and agreeing are two different things.

Sounds like the group was already defense heavy, having 3 healers and a paladin, monk, please tell me you had at least one big dps, sounds like a slow group, great healing and staying alive but slow.

Message Edited by NighthawkX on 10-19-2005 02:00 AM

[thargnar]

A 53 guard instead of a 57 zerker... it's good to see that we still have a place with utter choobs. Apparently we get first consideration with short bus groups regardless of massive level difference and current class balance, the Guardian LIVES! Seriously, that call was about as bright as a two watt bulb, not something to base arguements on that Guards are still Uber 1st choice tanks. If you understand, it's hard to see how you don't agree, but you are entitled to your opinion and obviously it isn't going to change. If you prefer the slower but slightly and arguably safer play style of a guard in the group as anything but MT, that's how you play the game, you're paying for it after all.

[NighthawkX]

I agree our group made a poor decision and that is what I was refering to, nothing about the guardians benefits in that group, in fact we would of been better without him and replaced with a warlock or conjuror.  But I arrived to the group already in progress and it appeared like the Guardian was pretty much running the show, so I didn't want to stir up problems I just wanted to play and have fun, and since the group did fine it wasn't a problem.

[MrDiz]

Nighthawk, not sure but i felt like you called me a liar without actually doing so. Sorry if im reading it wrong. But out of curiosity what does it matter if the monk was lvl 60000? From memory here is what i remember.1)There were free slots in the group.2)The groups level range was 51-57 3)They said no to a 54 guardian.4)They said yes to a 55 templar even tho they already had a healer (warden) and didnt need another. (We usually do it with just me healing).5)They didnt actualy say "Lets wait for a 55 monk". They just wanted some dps.6)This is all totally besided the point of the story Guardians are pure tanks. They are the uncoloured unflavoured warrior from AD&D. They are the fighter equivelent of the wizard. Pure in what they do. it means they are good at what they do, but if they can do it (cos its already being done) they are not needed. Its the price guardians pay for the one trick pony thing. The point of the post was to suggest to those "guardians were supermen" believers that in fact guardians were just focused. And even tho that gave them an edge in one place, it was a hinderence in others. Its called balance Please stop trying to read number or stats or whatever else into the story. Its an anecdotal reminder of what life is like as a pure tank.Everything balancing, is not always everything is equal.Small addition to this: I picked this story as an illustration not becuase it was unique but because it was that encounter that made me think of the post. Guardians not being needed if not MT is a common and normal thing. Its happened to all guardians on a number of occasions unless they have only stuck to seriously tight friends. If a group has a tank and you ask to join them, you better be a beetter tank so you can tanke his job and let him do something lese. Cos if not, no way

Message Edited by MrDizzi on 10-19-2005 02:45 AM

[Hzor]

I am from same server with Dizzi but from another guild

I am 56 atm but i got totally same situation 2 days ago for same zone lol

 

Group were forming for roost and there was already guildy in that group 55 Inq

I asked him - did they have room and answer was yes we have 1 room left

we have already Another healer, 56SK will tank and 1 scout and 1 mage class

(cant remember whichs exactly). He ask group that instead of waiting he have already

guildy/RL friend 56 guardian who want to join .

 

i think you know already which was answer, no thanks we dont need another tank, we

done this with our SK several times and he really nice so we dont want that guard.

We need some dps to do this faster.

 

Friend just live group but i told him not to do same in future. Its not players foult - its SoE issue

which gives guardian only Tanking and now when any other fighter can tank same + add something usefull

we ONLY needed in groups when NO others tanks avalable at ALL.

 

And yes that group was right. If they any other tank which is enought for goal they have - NO REASON

to invite guardian. ANY other class can provide alot more. And yes brawler can be invited. WHi ?

Couse he can offtank if something go really bad or MT die same or better that guard and they can ADD

really nice dps to group, add FD and save alot of time for group to run to shards, they can save healers

mana and self heal if got some agro + even more things. We cant add anything

 

447 HP (adept3) buff not enought to decide have guardian in normal exp group instead of any other dps

+14 defence group buff (adept3) - again nothing for normal exping group

 

This is whole problem - if we not tank - we really dont needed in everydays exping groups. No groups needed

2 RAW tanks - but all more than happy to have 2 assasins or 2 rangers or 2 any other classes.

 

Now think about same situation but pre DoF - I will get invite to group, that SK will anyway stay and do his dps

HTouch, ets.

 

Haik 56 guardian Neriak

[MrDiz]

Hi Haik