Guardians and Berserkers? Why have both?

MrDiz · 10-18-2005, 05:44 PM

If all fihters are equal tanks, it looks like all tanks gonna do identical dps. Now its not someting either guards or zerks want, but looks like its gonna happen. So out of curiosity, if they equalise DPS what wll the difference be between the 'defensive warrior' and the 'offensive warrior' ?Do they get a cool growl sound effect maybe?

Nemi · 10-18-2005, 06:14 PM

Well the buffs and group buffs between the two classes are different.

RafaelSmith · 10-18-2005, 06:18 PM

Nemi wrote:Well the buffs and group buffs between the two classes are different.

But if in the end all 6 tank identically, dps identically and OMG have equal utility then whats the point in all the buffs being different? In the case of the 4 plates...we will all look identical also. The archetype idea is fundamentally flawed....especially with regards to tanks/fighters.

Kynlo · 10-18-2005, 07:52 PM

I think SoE has basically shot themselves in the foot on this one. How can everyone be the same, yet different at the same time?

MrDiz · 10-18-2005, 07:55 PM

The buffs cant be that different Nemi. If they were one might be a slightly better tank than the other.

Nemi · 10-18-2005, 08:00 PM

This game has more encounter types than 1.

It is therefore easy to make each tank be 'best' in a given scenario. Group play is fine and noone has a problem with it. With non-trauma type mobs, casters, healers, multiple mob encounters, multiple encounter pulls and named and epics, there is plenty of scope to have the subclasses excel in a given field. That does not mean we need to make 1 subclass the best nor does it mean we have to loose all identity for Fighters.

RafaelSmith · 10-18-2005, 08:42 PM

Nemi wrote:

This game has more encounter types than 1.

Group play is fine and noone has a problem with it. That does not mean we need to make 1 subclass the best nor does it mean we have to loose all identity for Fighters.

In reality it only has 1 encounter type...more specifically one way to beat all encounters....grab as many healers as you can all spamming whatever heals they have available to keep whoever has aggro alive..while everyone else does as much DMG as they can. Its a very sad day when I say to myself that the CH chains of EQ1 were closer to strategy than what we have in EQ2. .. ... Group play is not fine...Group play is all I do...its all ill ever do and each and everyday I group I know deep down inside that I am the worst possible choice my group could make for their MT. .. .. .. Since revamp we no longer have 1 subclass that is the best but we have 1 that is the worst...Not much difference between those in terms of balance if you ask me.

MrDiz · 10-19-2005, 12:10 AM

Nemi to be honest you strike me as genuine, but naive. Encounters have always been different. They just require the same thing. Ax hp, max avoid, max mit and max resists with max healing and as much dps as u can. In the end we as a player base will find a way to get one class slightly better all round than the rest and that will be choice 1. The next best choice 2... and so on. All 6 fighters will probably be options for tank, but I can say with 90% certainty that choice 1 will alwasy be the same class for some reason sony didnt see. So they nerf that in next epxansion and another tank takes over and we start over again.

It will never be equal. Its a fools dream. And whilst striving for it you are not being 'fair' by rotating 'the crown' (as you see it), you are simply making the game disjointed and inconsistent.

Its like a book where the heros keep changing skills and abilites each chapter.

Pry · 10-19-2005, 12:26 AM

In the great Kingdom of Wencelaus lived two brothers, Domi and Damien. They grew up as any two boys do, causing mischief, fighting and playing. It was not long before they were 17 and ready to become men themselves.

Domi was indeed a Knight. But a Knight in Wencelaus meant many things, and for Domi it meant spending hours at the local blacksmith shop finding the right armor to wear in battle. In fact, he chose many styles, each one heavier than the next and with every subsequent battle (and with each iteration of heavy armour) he became stronger and more powerful.

Damien was a pious man, involved in the Church and it's ways. From deep within the church temple, he learned ancient hand to hand fighting skills. Sometimes he used a weapon like a baton, but always wore a cotton tunic. His religion commanded it and his fighting style did as well. Monks must move, they must breathe and become one with themselves.

Wencelaus went on for many years in peace. Until one day, a dragon had started to burn the fruits from the trees and the plants from the fields. In some cases, he even ate the people! The King himself decreed that any man who would kill the dragon shall inherit lands from the castle to the sea.

Damien and Domi decided that they were perfect for the task, so the next morning they strode out along the morning mist to meet the mighty dragon face to face! They were nervous, excited and scared, but the strode on until they reached the dragon's very lair.

The sleeping dragon woke upon catching the scent of its hunters and roared with furiosity! Domi and Damien were taken aback by the powerful dragon. Domi whispered to Damien, "So who of us shall attack my brother?".

To which Damien replied, "I am not sure, is this a fire breathing dragon or does it have magiks? Or does it just attack us outright, and who is faster brother me or you? Perhaps I can tackle this dragon better than you, or if it breathes fire perhaps it's you. Maybe we ought to poke it with a stick and see what it does....I am not sure. Domi my good brother you are quite weak, so maybe I should be the one, but I am not sure in which this situation applies and....."

The dragon swooped down and ate them both....

Airog · 10-19-2005, 12:44 AM

Prynn wrote:

In the great Kingdom of Wencelaus lived two brothers, Domi and Damien. They grew up as any two boys do, causing mischief, fighting and playing. It was not long before they were 17 and ready to become men themselves.

Domi was indeed a Knight. But a Knight in Wencelaus meant many things, and for Domi it meant spending hours at the local blacksmith shop finding the right armor to wear in battle. In fact, he chose many styles, each one heavier than the next and with every subsequent battle (and with each iteration of heavy armour) he became stronger and more powerful.

Damien was a pious man, involved in the Church and it's ways. From deep within the church temple, he learned ancient hand to hand fighting skills. Sometimes he used a weapon like a baton, but always wore a cotton tunic. His religion commanded it and his fighting style did as well. Monks must move, they must breathe and become one with themselves.

Wencelaus went on for many years in peace. Until one day, a dragon had started to burn the fruits from the trees and the plants from the fields. In some cases, he even ate the people! The King himself decreed that any man who would kill the dragon shall inherit lands from the castle to the sea.

Damien and Domi decided that they were perfect for the task, so the next morning they strode out along the morning mist to meet the mighty dragon face to face! They were nervous, excited and scared, but the strode on until they reached the dragon's very lair.

The sleeping dragon woke upon catching the scent of its hunters and roared with furiosity! Domi and Damien were taken aback by the powerful dragon. Domi whispered to Damien, "So who of us shall attack my brother?".

To which Damien replied, "I am not sure, is this a fire breathing dragon or does it have magiks? Or does it just attack us outright, and who is faster brother me or you? Perhaps I can tackle this dragon better than you, or if it breathes fire perhaps it's you. Maybe we ought to poke it with a stick and see what it does....I am not sure. Domi my good brother you are quite weak, so maybe I should be the one, but I am not sure in which this situation applies and....."

The dragon swooped down and ate them both....

HAHA!! So funny!!

NighthawkX · 10-19-2005, 01:03 AM

Good story I like it. Luckily we have plenty of people willing to poke it with sticks dieing trying to find out by the time we get there.

Poochymama · 10-19-2005, 02:28 AM

MrDizzi wrote:
If all fihters are equal tanks, it looks like all tanks gonna do identical dps. Now its not someting either guards or zerks want, but looks like its gonna happen. So out of curiosity, if they equalise DPS what wll the difference be between the 'defensive warrior' and the 'offensive warrior' ?

Do they get a cool growl sound effect maybe?

They should both tank about equally and dps about equally, but the guardian will help to make his group tougher as a whole, where as the berserker will make his grp do more dmg as a whole.

Ironmeow · 10-19-2005, 02:36 AM

yah the guardian will make his group tougher but cannot make himself tougher cause all the warriors are as tough, except guardians dont do damage, so we sit there making the monk tougher? that is complete bs

MrDiz · 10-19-2005, 03:28 AM

Basically the difference between a guard and a zerker is one is a buffer for the tank, the other is a buffer for the dps? Otherwise soloing they basically are identical in every way?

I picked a tank and got a bard. Yay me!

MrDiz · 10-19-2005, 01:59 PM

Ironmeow wrote:
yah the guardian will make his group tougher but cannot make himself tougher cause all the warriors are as tough, except guardians dont do damage, so we sit there making the monk tougher? that is complete bs

Yeah thats true, if we do get any buffs that increase defence mitigation etc they CANNOT apply to us SMILEY

If they did we would tank better than a berzerker which we cant have. But no way seriously can anyon expect the pure warrior classes to be totally morphed into warrior/bard hybrids. Thats the one thing im 100% sure even sony cant pull off SMILEY

Ok back to the drawing board. Come on guys, we have 2 pure warrior classes here. one offensive, one defensive. But in what way are they offensive and defensive if they defend identically and have the same DPS. Whats makes a berszerker different from a guardian? SMILEY

MrDiz · 10-19-2005, 02:01 PM

Ironmeow wrote:
yah the guardian will make his group tougher but cannot make himself tougher cause all the warriors are as tough, except guardians dont do damage, so we sit there making the monk tougher? that is complete bs

Yeah thats true, if we do get any buffs that increase defence mitigation etc they CANNOT apply to us SMILEY

If they did we would tank better than a berzerker which we cant have. But no way seriously can anyon expect the pure warrior classes to be totally morphed into warrior/bard hybrids. Thats the one thing im 100% sure even sony cant pull off SMILEY

Ok back to the drawing board. Come on guys, we have 2 pure warrior classes here. one offensive, one defensive. But in what way are they offensive and defensive if they defend identically and have the same DPS. Whats makes a berszerker different from a guardian? SMILEY

Buggrit · 10-19-2005, 02:03 PM

i've always said EQ2's biggest problem was they made way to many classes its silly

MrDiz · 10-19-2005, 03:13 PM

Buggrit wrote:i've always said EQ2's biggest problem was they made way to many classes its silly

I sorta agree and disagree. I always like 'subclasses' in rpgs. But at no point should an rpg abandon its core 4: Warrior, Cleric, Rogue and Wizard (sorcerer in eq2). There has to be a pure version of the classes as a foundation. A western fantasy game without a simple pure warrior is just wrong.

Hzor · 10-19-2005, 03:27 PM

Totally agree with Dizzi - nothing to add at all

Raahl · 10-19-2005, 05:14 PM

Grouped with a monk yesterday, I was playing my Ranger. He had very little problems keeping aggro.

The monk had to bail and a Berserker replaced him. The beserker had issues keeping aggro from not only me but a Dirge also.

Not sure it it was the skills of the berserker, or that they take more time to get aggro, but it was very interesting to see the comparison. I checked out his gear and he was decked out in legendary.

10-18-2005, 05:44 PM	#1
MrDiz General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 689	If all fihters are equal tanks, it looks like all tanks gonna do identical dps. Now its not someting either guards or zerks want, but looks like its gonna happen. So out of curiosity, if they equalise DPS what wll the difference be between the 'defensive warrior' and the 'offensive warrior' ?Do they get a cool growl sound effect maybe? __________________ Gizzi: Halfling 70 Swashbuckler, Dizzi: Halfling 70 Templar, Vizzi - Halfling 61 Shadow Knight, Bizzi - Halfling 61 Dirge, Qizzi - Halfling 70 Illusionist, Tizzi - Halfling 60 guardian ( Peek inside Dizzi's Home )

10-18-2005, 06:18 PM	#3
RafaelSmith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,808	Nemi wrote:Well the buffs and group buffs between the two classes are different. But if in the end all 6 tank identically, dps identically and OMG have equal utility then whats the point in all the buffs being different? In the case of the 4 plates...we will all look identical also. The archetype idea is fundamentally flawed....especially with regards to tanks/fighters. __________________

10-18-2005, 07:52 PM	#4
Kynlo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 34	I think SoE has basically shot themselves in the foot on this one. How can everyone be the same, yet different at the same time? __________________

10-18-2005, 07:55 PM	#5
MrDiz General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 689	The buffs cant be that different Nemi. If they were one might be a slightly better tank than the other. __________________ Gizzi: Halfling 70 Swashbuckler, Dizzi: Halfling 70 Templar, Vizzi - Halfling 61 Shadow Knight, Bizzi - Halfling 61 Dirge, Qizzi - Halfling 70 Illusionist, Tizzi - Halfling 60 guardian ( Peek inside Dizzi's Home )

10-18-2005, 08:42 PM	#7
RafaelSmith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,808	Nemi wrote: This game has more encounter types than 1. Group play is fine and noone has a problem with it. That does not mean we need to make 1 subclass the best nor does it mean we have to loose all identity for Fighters. In reality it only has 1 encounter type...more specifically one way to beat all encounters....grab as many healers as you can all spamming whatever heals they have available to keep whoever has aggro alive..while everyone else does as much DMG as they can. Its a very sad day when I say to myself that the CH chains of EQ1 were closer to strategy than what we have in EQ2. .. ... Group play is not fine...Group play is all I do...its all ill ever do and each and everyday I group I know deep down inside that I am the worst possible choice my group could make for their MT. .. .. .. Since revamp we no longer have 1 subclass that is the best but we have 1 that is the worst...Not much difference between those in terms of balance if you ask me. __________________

10-18-2005, 06:14 PM	#2
Nemi Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 603	Well the buffs and group buffs between the two classes are different.

10-18-2005, 08:00 PM	#6
Nemi Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 603	This game has more encounter types than 1. It is therefore easy to make each tank be 'best' in a given scenario. Group play is fine and noone has a problem with it. With non-trauma type mobs, casters, healers, multiple mob encounters, multiple encounter pulls and named and epics, there is plenty of scope to have the subclasses excel in a given field. That does not mean we need to make 1 subclass the best nor does it mean we have to loose all identity for Fighters.

10-19-2005, 12:10 AM	#8
MrDiz General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 689	Nemi to be honest you strike me as genuine, but naive. Encounters have always been different. They just require the same thing. Ax hp, max avoid, max mit and max resists with max healing and as much dps as u can. In the end we as a player base will find a way to get one class slightly better all round than the rest and that will be choice 1. The next best choice 2... and so on. All 6 fighters will probably be options for tank, but I can say with 90% certainty that choice 1 will alwasy be the same class for some reason sony didnt see. So they nerf that in next epxansion and another tank takes over and we start over again. It will never be equal. Its a fools dream. And whilst striving for it you are not being 'fair' by rotating 'the crown' (as you see it), you are simply making the game disjointed and inconsistent. Its like a book where the heros keep changing skills and abilites each chapter. __________________ Gizzi: Halfling 70 Swashbuckler, Dizzi: Halfling 70 Templar, Vizzi - Halfling 61 Shadow Knight, Bizzi - Halfling 61 Dirge, Qizzi - Halfling 70 Illusionist, Tizzi - Halfling 60 guardian ( Peek inside Dizzi's Home )

10-19-2005, 12:26 AM	#9
Pry Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	In the great Kingdom of Wencelaus lived two brothers, Domi and Damien. They grew up as any two boys do, causing mischief, fighting and playing. It was not long before they were 17 and ready to become men themselves. Domi was indeed a Knight. But a Knight in Wencelaus meant many things, and for Domi it meant spending hours at the local blacksmith shop finding the right armor to wear in battle. In fact, he chose many styles, each one heavier than the next and with every subsequent battle (and with each iteration of heavy armour) he became stronger and more powerful. Damien was a pious man, involved in the Church and it's ways. From deep within the church temple, he learned ancient hand to hand fighting skills. Sometimes he used a weapon like a baton, but always wore a cotton tunic. His religion commanded it and his fighting style did as well. Monks must move, they must breathe and become one with themselves. Wencelaus went on for many years in peace. Until one day, a dragon had started to burn the fruits from the trees and the plants from the fields. In some cases, he even ate the people! The King himself decreed that any man who would kill the dragon shall inherit lands from the castle to the sea. Damien and Domi decided that they were perfect for the task, so the next morning they strode out along the morning mist to meet the mighty dragon face to face! They were nervous, excited and scared, but the strode on until they reached the dragon's very lair. The sleeping dragon woke upon catching the scent of its hunters and roared with furiosity! Domi and Damien were taken aback by the powerful dragon. Domi whispered to Damien, "So who of us shall attack my brother?". To which Damien replied, "I am not sure, is this a fire breathing dragon or does it have magiks? Or does it just attack us outright, and who is faster brother me or you? Perhaps I can tackle this dragon better than you, or if it breathes fire perhaps it's you. Maybe we ought to poke it with a stick and see what it does....I am not sure. Domi my good brother you are quite weak, so maybe I should be the one, but I am not sure in which this situation applies and....." The dragon swooped down and ate them both....

10-19-2005, 12:44 AM	#10
Airog Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 317	Prynn wrote: In the great Kingdom of Wencelaus lived two brothers, Domi and Damien. They grew up as any two boys do, causing mischief, fighting and playing. It was not long before they were 17 and ready to become men themselves. Domi was indeed a Knight. But a Knight in Wencelaus meant many things, and for Domi it meant spending hours at the local blacksmith shop finding the right armor to wear in battle. In fact, he chose many styles, each one heavier than the next and with every subsequent battle (and with each iteration of heavy armour) he became stronger and more powerful. Damien was a pious man, involved in the Church and it's ways. From deep within the church temple, he learned ancient hand to hand fighting skills. Sometimes he used a weapon like a baton, but always wore a cotton tunic. His religion commanded it and his fighting style did as well. Monks must move, they must breathe and become one with themselves. Wencelaus went on for many years in peace. Until one day, a dragon had started to burn the fruits from the trees and the plants from the fields. In some cases, he even ate the people! The King himself decreed that any man who would kill the dragon shall inherit lands from the castle to the sea. Damien and Domi decided that they were perfect for the task, so the next morning they strode out along the morning mist to meet the mighty dragon face to face! They were nervous, excited and scared, but the strode on until they reached the dragon's very lair. The sleeping dragon woke upon catching the scent of its hunters and roared with furiosity! Domi and Damien were taken aback by the powerful dragon. Domi whispered to Damien, "So who of us shall attack my brother?". To which Damien replied, "I am not sure, is this a fire breathing dragon or does it have magiks? Or does it just attack us outright, and who is faster brother me or you? Perhaps I can tackle this dragon better than you, or if it breathes fire perhaps it's you. Maybe we ought to poke it with a stick and see what it does....I am not sure. Domi my good brother you are quite weak, so maybe I should be the one, but I am not sure in which this situation applies and....." The dragon swooped down and ate them both.... HAHA!! So funny!!

10-19-2005, 01:03 AM	#11
NighthawkX Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 98	Good story I like it. Luckily we have plenty of people willing to poke it with sticks dieing trying to find out by the time we get there.

10-19-2005, 02:28 AM	#12
Poochymama Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 361	MrDizzi wrote: If all fihters are equal tanks, it looks like all tanks gonna do identical dps. Now its not someting either guards or zerks want, but looks like its gonna happen. So out of curiosity, if they equalise DPS what wll the difference be between the 'defensive warrior' and the 'offensive warrior' ? Do they get a cool growl sound effect maybe? They should both tank about equally and dps about equally, but the guardian will help to make his group tougher as a whole, where as the berserker will make his grp do more dmg as a whole. __________________ I like chicken

10-19-2005, 02:36 AM	#13
Ironmeow Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 175	yah the guardian will make his group tougher but cannot make himself tougher cause all the warriors are as tough, except guardians dont do damage, so we sit there making the monk tougher? that is complete bs

10-19-2005, 03:28 AM	#14
MrDiz General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 689	Basically the difference between a guard and a zerker is one is a buffer for the tank, the other is a buffer for the dps? Otherwise soloing they basically are identical in every way? I picked a tank and got a bard. Yay me! __________________ Gizzi: Halfling 70 Swashbuckler, Dizzi: Halfling 70 Templar, Vizzi - Halfling 61 Shadow Knight, Bizzi - Halfling 61 Dirge, Qizzi - Halfling 70 Illusionist, Tizzi - Halfling 60 guardian ( Peek inside Dizzi's Home )

10-19-2005, 01:59 PM	#15
MrDiz General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 689	Ironmeow wrote: yah the guardian will make his group tougher but cannot make himself tougher cause all the warriors are as tough, except guardians dont do damage, so we sit there making the monk tougher? that is complete bs Yeah thats true, if we do get any buffs that increase defence mitigation etc they CANNOT apply to us If they did we would tank better than a berzerker which we cant have. But no way seriously can anyon expect the pure warrior classes to be totally morphed into warrior/bard hybrids. Thats the one thing im 100% sure even sony cant pull off Ok back to the drawing board. Come on guys, we have 2 pure warrior classes here. one offensive, one defensive. But in what way are they offensive and defensive if they defend identically and have the same DPS. Whats makes a berszerker different from a guardian? __________________ Gizzi: Halfling 70 Swashbuckler, Dizzi: Halfling 70 Templar, Vizzi - Halfling 61 Shadow Knight, Bizzi - Halfling 61 Dirge, Qizzi - Halfling 70 Illusionist, Tizzi - Halfling 60 guardian ( Peek inside Dizzi's Home )

10-19-2005, 02:01 PM	#16
MrDiz General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 689	Ironmeow wrote: yah the guardian will make his group tougher but cannot make himself tougher cause all the warriors are as tough, except guardians dont do damage, so we sit there making the monk tougher? that is complete bs Yeah thats true, if we do get any buffs that increase defence mitigation etc they CANNOT apply to us If they did we would tank better than a berzerker which we cant have. But no way seriously can anyon expect the pure warrior classes to be totally morphed into warrior/bard hybrids. Thats the one thing im 100% sure even sony cant pull off Ok back to the drawing board. Come on guys, we have 2 pure warrior classes here. one offensive, one defensive. But in what way are they offensive and defensive if they defend identically and have the same DPS. Whats makes a berszerker different from a guardian? __________________ Gizzi: Halfling 70 Swashbuckler, Dizzi: Halfling 70 Templar, Vizzi - Halfling 61 Shadow Knight, Bizzi - Halfling 61 Dirge, Qizzi - Halfling 70 Illusionist, Tizzi - Halfling 60 guardian ( Peek inside Dizzi's Home )

10-19-2005, 02:03 PM	#17
Buggrit Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 171	i've always said EQ2's biggest problem was they made way to many classes its silly __________________

10-19-2005, 03:13 PM	#18
MrDiz General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 689	Buggrit wrote:i've always said EQ2's biggest problem was they made way to many classes its silly I sorta agree and disagree. I always like 'subclasses' in rpgs. But at no point should an rpg abandon its core 4: Warrior, Cleric, Rogue and Wizard (sorcerer in eq2). There has to be a pure version of the classes as a foundation. A western fantasy game without a simple pure warrior is just wrong. __________________ Gizzi: Halfling 70 Swashbuckler, Dizzi: Halfling 70 Templar, Vizzi - Halfling 61 Shadow Knight, Bizzi - Halfling 61 Dirge, Qizzi - Halfling 70 Illusionist, Tizzi - Halfling 60 guardian ( Peek inside Dizzi's Home )

10-19-2005, 03:27 PM	#19
Hzor Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 29	Totally agree with Dizzi - nothing to add at all

10-19-2005, 05:14 PM	#20
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	Grouped with a monk yesterday, I was playing my Ranger. He had very little problems keeping aggro. The monk had to bail and a Berserker replaced him. The beserker had issues keeping aggro from not only me but a Dirge also. Not sure it it was the skills of the berserker, or that they take more time to get aggro, but it was very interesting to see the comparison. I checked out his gear and he was decked out in legendary. __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger