station cast 1.5 times more expensive for european customers?

[cradeg]

10 $ are not 10 Euro (for a digital product like SC)  ... its just ripping Euro customers off.

[Kromulok]

makes sense since our dollar is only worth around 55 cents in europe. Cry me a river. I was in London last year and had to pay $16.00 for a burger and some fries.

[Safana.]

Thank god, SoE isnt a japanese company... 

[Ansek]

It's nice to see that burying this thread in the deep dark recesses of the Station Cash forum - and perfectly pleasant and welcoming tho DanielH has been, make no mistake this thread has been buried - the issue is still being reported on outside. Kudos to places like EQ2Wire for posting about it and breaking the story to the wider gaming community. I subscribe to twenty or so gaming RSS feeds and blogs and this morning five were carrying this.

And thats not including forum threads, ingame discussions etc. The Pan-European meta-guild I belong to had as their frontpage news an article entitled "SOE Caught Ripping Off European Customers - AGAIN" People need to know, so they can make informed decisions about their own money. It simply isn't good enough to say something costs 25USD when it actually costs nowhere near.

No one expects complete parity across all currencies - SOE is a business, we expect them to err in favour a bit of themselves - but the current disparity is simply too great, and has been for quite some time.

To make it perfectly clear I crunched some numbers, working out how much SOE charge for 2500SC - the cost of a Racial Change Potion - in various currencies and how much that is in US dollars. All figures exclude local taxes.

• Australia: 2500SC = 40AUD = US$36.88 = 47.5% increase over the US price.
• Denmark: 2500SC = 175DKK = U$35.28 = 43.2% increase over the US price
• Eurozone: 2500SC = 25EUR = US$37.52 = 50.1% increase over the US price
• UK: 2500SC = 20GBP = US$34.62 = 38.5% increase over the US price
• Norway: 2500SC = 175NOK = US$31.48 = 25.9% increase over the US price
• Sweden: 2500SC = 250SEK = US$36.87 = 47.5% increase over the US price.
• Switzerland: 2500SC = 30CHF = US$29.73 = 18.9% increase over the US price
• Japan: 2500SC = 2500JPY = US$27.16 = 8.6% increase over the US price

It's all well and good saying "well don't pay it then" but for things like server transfers - as the OP found out - we have no alternative. Look at what's been added in recent weeks - and you just know the forthcoming Adventure Class respec will cost 2500SC; and then they'll discover that, actually, extra character slots AREN'T impossible after all, you just need to buy a token off the Marketplace; and then... If SOE insists on nickle and diming its customers, it's only fair that everyone's nickle is worth more or less the same.

@Kromulok: You paid a tenner for burger and chips? Thats got nothing to do with the exchange rate love, thats cos you buy burgers from tourist rip off joints. Strongly recommend you don't buy a can of coke in Rome, that really was extortionate.

@Safana: I love your sig.

[TSR-DanielH]

Ansek wrote:

It's nice to see that burying this thread in the deep dark recesses of the Station Cash forum - and perfectly pleasant and welcoming tho DanielH has been, make no mistake this thread has been buried - the issue is still being reported on outside. Kudos to places like EQ2Wire for posting about it and breaking the story to the wider gaming community. I subscribe to twenty or so gaming RSS feeds and blogs and this morning five were carrying this.

Was the thread moved here?  I thought the original post was made in this forum because I didn't see a move notification.

Generally speaking, this subforum is for people having technical issues with purchasing station cash.  I'm not saying that the Devs will never look in this area, but it wasn't designed for this kind of information at least.  If you post in the Station Cash Feedback thread in the Developer's Roundtable forums then there is a better chance that the developers will read the information you're  posting.  I have included a link to that thread below:

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=438341

I would love to assist you with this issue but I do not have the ability to change the policy in regards to international pricing.

[Ansek]

It was moved - http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=461163 is the original thread.

[Wingrider01]

cradeg wrote:

10 $ are not 10 Euro (for a digital product like SC)  ... its just ripping Euro customers off.

Bottom line, deal with the exchange rate. Anyone that deals with companies outside the US has to do it, why should it be any different for players that do not use the US dollar as country of origin currency? I sure don't pay 20K US for a product that is listed at 20K Euro, I think that is unfair, they should charge me in US dollars, not converted currency.

[Pervis]

TSR-DanielH wrote:

I would love to assist you with this issue but I do not have the ability to change the policy in regards to international pricing.

How about getting someone that does have that ability to come here and tell us why all of us are constantly paying more for, well, everything that SoE offers, and recieve less for our money.

We pay more, as this thread is evidance of, yet we are not welcomed in LoN tournaments, we get left out of any promotional givaways and we are not able to sell on exchange servers.

Honestly, I think someone needs to attempt to rationalise the above. More to the point, I think someone needs to find a better way of dealing with whatever fraud you were experiancing, without the disadvantage to the majority of the world.

And people wonder why America has the reputation it has...

[Masuma]

TSR-DanielH wrote:

Was the thread moved here?  I thought the original post was made in this forum because I didn't see a move notification.

Yes the thread was moved here and it feels a little bit like it was moved to get less attention because much less people visit this forum.

[snowli]

Kromulok wrote:

makes sense since our dollar is only worth around 55 cents in europe. Cry me a river. I was in London last year and had to pay $16.00 for a burger and some fries.

I think youi're missing the point, while every other shop might have charged you $16 for your burger and fries, shopping at the SoE shop would have cost you $24.

SoE's exchange rate is years out of date, and 50% wrong - the cynic in me wonders if it it will take as long for the dollar to get strong again until the accounts department get's around to their review of SoE's internally set exchange rate. Right now it benefits them to the tune of 50%.

[Shareana]

Actually I moved this thread...  Not because I wanted to bury it, but because I remembered seeing a post in Support where the TSR's discussed how they figure out the exchange rate.  This is the only place that I have seen it answered by a dev or TSR and I was hoping that if I moved it here, you would get a response explaining it

Moving threads are usually a way to get it seen by the correct eyes

[snowli]

SoE should let their customers pay in the currency of their choice and with more payment options e.g. via paypal, the fraud prevention argument is no justification not to allow paypal for example and let paypal make the currency conversion at rates that reflect reality.

[Callinia]

Wingrider01 wrote:

cradeg wrote:

10 $ are not 10 Euro (for a digital product like SC)  ... its just ripping Euro customers off.

Bottom line, deal with the exchange rate. Anyone that deals with companies outside the US has to do it, why should it be any different for players that do not use the US dollar as country of origin currency? I sure don't pay 20K US for a product that is listed at 20K Euro, I think that is unfair, they should charge me in US dollars, not converted currency.

You're simply not getting it, are you ? To make it perfectly clear for you : we (as in non-US residents) can't pay in US$ anymore ! We HAVE to pay in our local currency even though we're "ordering" something in the US. And that is utter BS ! When i order spare parts for a classic car in the US, in what currency do you think they'll issue the bill ? Euros ?? When you as an American order french wine in Europe, do you actually expect them to charge you in $$$ ?!

It'd be the same if the wine dealer from France sold his wine to €-customers for 50€ but if you ordered it from the US he'd charge you 110$ (excluding P&P), well, because you're from the US and he says so and you have to pay in USD and not in €, also because he says so.

To sum it up for you : If you buy anything in your home country, you pay it with local currency. If you buy anything in a foreign country, you pay it with foreign currency.

I and many others used to pay in USD which we can't anymore. So basically the price of our EQ2 subscription has gone up 50% ! And that is NOT because exchange rates USD->EUR have gone up, it's simply because SOE decided to.

Now, can you tell us again how that fits to your example of international trading ?

[Guy De Alsace]

I never noticed they have been overcharging us for VAT. Are there any grounds for compensation or not? It got lowered to 15% on 1st December 2008 IIRC.

I cant use SC anyway because its just too expensive even without any exchange rate shenanigans. No way on earth anyone can justify £12.00 for ONE suit of armour or £4.00 just for a hat! I can get a full price CD for £12.00..!

[Ghouti]

Shareana wrote:

Actually I moved this thread...  Not because I wanted to bury it, but because I remembered seeing a post in Support where the TSR's discussed how they figure out the exchange rate.  This is the only place that I have seen it answered by a dev or TSR and I was hoping that if I moved it here, you would get a response explaining it

Moving threads are usually a way to get it seen by the correct eyes

well since we're not getting any response here either, perhaps its an suggestion to move it back ? Only reason to let it stay here is to let it die a slow death so that few people read about it ...

[Ansek]

Guy De Alsace wrote:

I never noticed they have been overcharging us for VAT. Are there any grounds for compensation or not? It got lowered to 15% on 1st December 2008 IIRC.

No, VAT doesnt work like that - the onus isnt on the consumer to pay it, but the supplier to see that it gets paid.

Say you go to Tescos and buy some DVDs costing £50. Of that £50, £43.48 is the cost of the items, the rest is VAT. You're not paying the government that money - you're paying Tescos to pay the government. Subtle difference - the tax bill isn't yours, its Tescos'.

At no point does the government charge the customer VAT - it charges the supplier, in this case Tescos. VAT is, if you like, optional for the consumer - the supplier HAS to pay it and most (but not all) pass the whole amount onto the consumer. But they don't have to. This is why you sometimes see supermarkets selling "VAT-free" alcohol, or furniture chains offering zero-VAT Bank Holiday extravaganzas: it means they're just not charging the customer for the tax - they still have to pay it.

So, the supplier is charged 15% VAT - how much of that they pass on to the customer is completely up to the supplier. When the government reduced VAT to 15% last year the aim was to pass that saving onto the customer, encouraging us to spend more money and thus kickstart the economy. There was no obligation for them to do so, however, and it appears that SOE decided, for whatever reason, not to. (Call me cynical but I suspect the reason being that they didnt think their customers would notice that they were still charging the old, higher rate.)

And thats completely fine. SOE has broken no rules and have just, in effect, increased their profit margin by 2.5%. It stinks but there's nothing we can do about it.

However, there is also a requirement that, if tax is charged at a rate other than the standard base rate, that the supplier is obligued to point it out to the customer on every transaction. And that's something SOE hasn't done. Doubt anything can realistically be done about it tho, tbh.

[Spammer]

And just when are SoE going to fix these rates? So far its been months and months of people venting their disgust at a money-hungry, cash grabbing company and all the time, people outside the USA are getting ripped off more and more. Face up SoE, youre out to screw as much money out of us while you can, all the time rubbing your greedy little hands together.

[Pervis]

TSR-DanielH wrote:

Greetings,

The exchange rate on international transactions is recalculated after set amounts of time.  Every so often the exchange rates will be updated across the various currencies.  Those who post here regularly may remember when changes in exchange rates made the Australian values higher than others before it was updated.  Sadly, I do not know when the exchange rates will be updated again.

Its been what? more than two months?

In order for your statement to be true, the last time SoE would have calculated exchange rates is some point in 2004. This is the last time the Euro was even remotly close for even a single second to trading at the same value as the US$.

This means that one of three things are happening:

The first is that you are 100% correct in your post, and that SoE recalculate exchange rates once every 5 years at an absolute minimum.

The second is that someone is lying. It may be you, it may be the person that gave you the 'info' you repeated to us.

The third is that SoE are deliberatly defrauding their European customers.

There is no fourth possibility, and none of the above three stand out as being even remotly acceptable to me. Though I know no one from SoE has the testicular fortitude to attempt to reply to this (other than deleting this post and giving me a warning/banning), I would like to hear someone attempt to defend why SoE are using exchange rates that are at least 5 years old, and are now out by 25%.

[Spammer]

Ansek wrote:

Guy De Alsace wrote:

I never noticed they have been overcharging us for VAT. Are there any grounds for compensation or not? It got lowered to 15% on 1st December 2008 IIRC.

NHowever, there is also a requirement that, if tax is charged at a rate other than the standard base rate, that the supplier is obligued to point it out to the customer on every transaction. And that's something SOE hasn't done. Doubt anything can realistically be done about it tho, tbh.

There is also a legal requirement to provide a VAT receipt, with a valid VAT number on it, if charging VAT to a business. I run a business and can claim game subs but SoE have so far, after three years of trying, refused to provide me with a VAT receipt, breaching EU law in the process. SoE simply dont care that we are unhappy, as long as they make money. Ive just closed an account, 10 quid less a month in their pockets.

[Spammer]

So Soe, are you just going to ignore our concerns while trotting off to the bank like a fat banker?

[Pervis]

Just jumping in to see if you are still blatantly defrauding every single international customer...

You are? Still no explination?

I'll try again later then.

[snowli]

Unless I'm mistaken none of the issues from this thread have seen any resolution, and the 'periodic' adjustment to rates still hasn't brought rates inline (and won't happen until such an adjustment swings in SOE's favour I suspect):

non-US customers still being gouged by SOE's internal exchange rates having no relation at all to real world exchange rates?

VAT often being charged at wrong rates still? (breeching eu law?)

VAT receipts with valid VAT registration number for SOE not being provided when requested? (again breeching eu law?)

[Ps]

Swiss people are "only" paying 22 - 25% more than Americans on this stuff, but still:

I have credit cards and accounts in USD and in EUR, but I'm in Switzerland. Why can't SOE's billing system believe that people with a Swiss address can still have credit cards issued in USD? How does not allowing this protect from fraud?

Does the system really not let any such transactions through? I'd be willing to try it out -- do you have to call SOE support on the phone to do this? Bronze EQ2X members aren't allowed to contact support by other means, I think. Perhaps not even by phone?

[Barx]

PsyQ wrote:

Swiss people are "only" paying 22 - 25% more than Americans on this stuff, but still:

I have credit cards and accounts in USD and in EUR, but I'm in Switzerland. Why can't SOE's billing system believe that people with a Swiss address can still have credit cards issued in USD? How does not allowing this protect from fraud?

Does the system really not let any such transactions through? I'd be willing to try it out -- do you have to call SOE support on the phone to do this? Bronze EQ2X members aren't allowed to contact support by other means, I think. Perhaps not even by phone?

Give them a call and ask. I think Bronze means you don't get support for in-game issues (IE lets say you accidentally deleted an item -- there you would be out of luck with a Bronze account). For actually billing they should still be able to help you (or at least talk to you if they can't let you pay in USD).

[TSR-JamisonW]

The short answer is that you need to pay with a credit card issued in the country you currently reside in.  If you live in Switzerland, there's no reason you should be paying with anything other than a Swiss card.  We are a very large target for fraud, and one of the major ways they get through is by using fraudulent information.  Yes, that may make it harder to get a charge through than some other online retailers, but it's a necessary evil.  We have to employ a whole team of people to go through every charge by hand looking for fraud.  If we see a charge that is supposedly for a US account coming from an IP out of the country, they'll stop it every time.  We can't make arbitrary decisions like "Well, it's OK for Switzerland, but not Country X".

[Ps]

Thanks for the answer.

But in this case you would have to adjust the way fraud detection works, because it's making a wrong assumption: My cards for example are issued in Switzerland, by a Swiss credit card company, running on Swiss bank accounts and registered to a Swiss address. But some of the accounts don't use Swiss Francs as a currency. It's possible to have accounts in any currency that the bank cares to support, around here you can usually get USD and EUR as foreign currencies at no (or little) extra charge. And I know of German companies operating in Switzerland that have CHF balances (not EUR) on their accounts in Germany.

Guessing that a Swiss card/account can only be valid for Swiss Francs would be false logic. The country of origin of a card doesn't have anything to do with the currencies it can handle.

It doesn't matter if it doesn't get fixed, life isn't fair sometimes, but it's surely not sound logic. It's the first time I've come across this way of doing things. Runes of Magic, for example, just bills in based on the EUR but does proper currency conversion to CHF, every single day or perhaps even on every transaction. That would solve the original problem (for everyone) and they could continue to "detect fraud" if they see a Swiss card that runs in USD.

[Spearmint]

A short story about me and some friends, that made me wonder how often SOE looses potential customers like this...

We are 6 players, who have been playing various MMO's over the years (WoW, WHO, DDO & Conan), and when EQII Extended was announced we thought great, lets try it out as we never got around to EQ at all before.

Quickly we learned that the game is far from free due to SC, which we guessed, was fair enough since SOE had to make money somehow on a free game right... Then we learned that to use some of the essentials in the game, we also had to buy a monthly subscription, and to top it off the exchange rates were so ridiculous that my friends have deleted the game and moved on.

So all in all the game ends up being one of the, if not the, most expensive MMORPG's on the market. IMO SOE should try considering to either go with micro payments only or a monthly fee for full access (No ingame cash for items etc.).

I am sure SOE could attract a heck of a lot more customers with a proper pricing strategy, and actually started to care about their customers... I believe there is a very good reason why EQ isn't the number one MMORPG on the planet, which is sad, because the game has a huge potential.

As for the comments on SOE not changing the currency rates. Well there is a very reasonable explanation to that. If the European player base stays the same, despite the 50% extra charge then they won't change it.

If all european customers suddenly stopped paying, and the player base dropped drastically, I bet you SOE would make changes to correct this right away.

Only money counts in this world, so thats the only way you can hit them.

Well, that was my little outburst...

( I tried to give the game a short go again today, but the launcher failed miserably, so can't even get into the game. A look in the forum tells me I am not the only one, and that it happens several times a year. I can't believe that EQ players are actually taking this kind of crap? Why??)

[Shareana]

Eq2X is a Free to play game.  You do not have to pay anything to play.  It is only if you want the extra's to be honest.

As for your issues logging in...  as you can see it is a small amount of people having issues (other then scheduled downtimes such as was this morning).  There are quite a few people playing in game that do not post on the forums unless they have issues getting in.  When that happens, there will be MANY more posts.

If you would like assistance with your connection issues, please take a peek at the *** Read before posting ***  and see what you can post on your end to help the TSR's and other techies help you out.  Also please start your own thread in the correct forums rather then tacking onto an already existing thread.  Thanks!

[snowli]

TSR-JamisonW wrote:

The short answer is that you need to pay with a credit card issued in the country you currently reside in.  If you live in Switzerland, there's no reason you should be paying with anything other than a Swiss card.  We are a very large target for fraud, and one of the major ways they get through is by using fraudulent information.  Yes, that may make it harder to get a charge through than some other online retailers, but it's a necessary evil.  We have to employ a whole team of people to go through every charge by hand looking for fraud.  If we see a charge that is supposedly for a US account coming from an IP out of the country, they'll stop it every time.  We can't make arbitrary decisions like "Well, it's OK for Switzerland, but not Country X".

None of that explains why your customers can't pay in the currency of their choice, whatever payment method they are using. That would appear to be the only way for customers to solve the fact that your internal SOE set rates have been completely distorted in your favour for going on 5 years now.

It also still doesn't explain why SOE don't appear to care about the legal infractions of charging too much Value Added Tax without provide compulsory VAT receipts & info. Are you even submitting the VAT you charge or is it just going into the coffers alongside the exchange rate wheeze?

If my tone sounds exasperated, well, it was more polite in 2006.

[ShinGoku]

I would like to add my voice to the mass of pee'd off Europeans.

Currently with the "SC sale", we are paying approx $10 more than US residents due to VAT and exchange rates being wrong.  Seriously, fix this or you will never get any SC sales from me.