Raiding Templars: new AA's: Yeah? Nay? or I dont give a rat's buttoodie? [Archive]

Kizee

06-29-2007, 08:56 AM

I tried agil line last night. I really don't miss the casting speed reduction since it only really took .5 second off my slowest casting heal but I am not sure if I like the line or not.I boosted my avoidance to about 40% (close to 500 agil raid buffed and a nice 444 mit +7 defence buckler) and only blocked 15 times on a whole MMIS run. I think that SoE needs to change the 60% to block using templars avoidance to 100% to use templars avoidance because: 1.) templars can't get very high avoidance without parry and there is almost never agil on "templarish" armor.2.) we are seeing a double check as its set up now.... the game checks to see if we have a chance to block then checks our avoidance. Doesn't seem very fair. 1 thing nice about the line is the 30 second AoE immune that you can cast on anybody with a 1.5 min recast.

Istaril

06-29-2007, 10:05 AM

I specc'ed full PvP (Str 4-4-8-6-2, Sta 4-7-4-8-2) last night, for some variety (we won't be raiding untill saturday, and I was convinced we'd have our 5 re-spec's by then) - and it's been a great deal of fun. Also a godsend for completing SoD, which we did in a glorious frenzy. Templar training FTW! For raids, though, my changes are limited to throwing 3 points from +Int to Castigation, STA 4-4-4-8 (20 points spent for ~4% net increase in heals) Int 4-7-8-8-2 However, I'd like to point out to the raiding clerics out there that while STA line will net ~ a 4% increase in your healing power, Wisdom line will yield ~8% less power use on heals (depending on your initial ministration, and cheating in the points of power gained from +wis ranks). If power is what's limiting your healing ability, wisdom is actually a viable choice (and will benefit your debuffs landing too!). I don't, sadly, have any good numbers for Shield Ally with a decent shield (say Festering shield from unrest) and the new + protection from dbl attack.

EQAditu

06-29-2007, 03:11 PM

<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote>I boosted my avoidance to about 40% (close to 500 agil raid buffed and a nice 444 mit +7 defence buckler) and only blocked 15 times on a whole MMIS run.</blockquote> No one seems to read my posts on the subject, so I keep seeing stuff like this. I'll fight the urge to put it in caps or bold, so just read it instead. Do not look at your total avoidance number. It does not mean what you think it does. You cannot give your base avoidance to your Shield Ally target. That means your defense and AGI are 100% meaningless. Try to boost them, and you will be disappointed. If you are serious about using Shield Ally, you must use one of the two 600+ protection round shields: <a href="http://eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=LTExNjMyNzEyNjE=" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Bulwark of the Brave</a>, <a href="http://eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=NzkxMzc0NDI=" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Disc of Protection</a>. Using a buckler with 1/3rd less protection is a bad idea. Adornments: <a href="http://www.eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=LTE5NDg1MjgxODI=" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Lambent Balanced Strut</a>, <a href="http://www.eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=LTIxNTc5MTg3Mg==" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Scintillating Balanced Fastening</a>(it's 2% uncontested parry now). Before the changes, that had me at 9.6% blocking, 4% parry... both seemingly uncontested by epic class mobs. Against one Mayong battle: (BEFORE GU36) Hits: 70 (13 hits brought to zero by Templar/Dirge stoneskin) [52.2%] ([9.7%]) Miss: 26 [17.9%] Tank Block: 8 [6.0%] Tank Parry/Riposte: 18 [13.4%] Shield Ally Block: 6 [4.5%] (Probably 7-8 with +32% protection AAs) Shield Ally Parry: 6 [4.5%] Please notice how Shield Ally almost triggered as often as two stoneskin buffs, with Blessings and Luck of the Dirge active. This is before GU36 brought my blocking% from 9.6 to 12.3% in persona. Also before GU36, just for comparison, I blocked 36 times and parried 29 times in my last MMIS run. A far cry from your 15 count... simply because I gear myself correctly. <hr />I haven't fought Mayong since GU36, so I'll show numbers from Malkonis D'Morte before and after. Or try to... for a WYSIWYG forum poster, you can't do anything special with it like tables. Before GU36 After GU36 Hits: 97(27) [41.3%]([11.5%]) Hits: 154(32) [40.7%]([8.5%]) Misses: 44 [18.7%] Misses: 75 [19.9%] Block: 33 [14.0%] Block: 51 [13.5%] Parry: 18 [ 7.7%] Parry: 34 [ 9.0%] AA Block: 10 [ 4.3%] AA Block: 25 [ 6.6%] AA Parry: 6 [ 2.6%] AA Parry: 7 [ 1.9%] It's relatively hard to compare one Shield Ally test to another. Tank parry/block comes before Shield Ally, AA parry comes before AA block... so the +32% shield protection is somewhat hard to determine since it's at the end of the chain... but in this one limited test, yes... it went up. (~53%)

Kizee

06-29-2007, 03:57 PM

<cite>EQAditu wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote>I boosted my avoidance to about 40% (close to 500 agil raid buffed and a nice 444 mit +7 defence buckler) and only blocked 15 times on a whole MMIS run.</blockquote> No one seems to read my posts on the subject, so I keep seeing stuff like this. I'll fight the urge to put it in caps or bold, so just read it instead. Do not look at your total avoidance number. It does not mean what you think it does. You cannot give your base avoidance to your Shield Ally target. That means your defense and AGI are 100% meaningless. Try to boost them, and you will be disappointed. If you are serious about using Shield Ally, you must use one of the two 600+ protection round shields: <a href="http://eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=LTExNjMyNzEyNjE=" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Bulwark of the Brave</a>, <a href="http://eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=NzkxMzc0NDI=" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Disc of Protection</a>. Using a buckler with 1/3rd less protection is a bad idea. Adornments: <a href="http://www.eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=LTE5NDg1MjgxODI=" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Lambent Balanced Strut</a>, <a href="http://www.eq2idb.com/item_details.php?item=LTIxNTc5MTg3Mg==" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Scintillating Balanced Fastening</a>(it's 2% uncontested parry now). Before the changes, that had me at 9.6% blocking, 4% parry... both seemingly uncontested by epic class mobs. Against one Mayong battle: (BEFORE GU36) Hits: 70 (13 hits brought to zero by Templar/Dirge stoneskin) [52.2%] ([9.7%]) Miss: 26 [17.9%] Tank Block: 8 [6.0%] Tank Parry/Riposte: 18 [13.4%] Shield Ally Block: 6 [4.5%] (Probably 7-8 with +32% protection AAs) Shield Ally Parry: 6 [4.5%] Please notice how Shield Ally almost triggered as often as two stoneskin buffs, with Blessings and Luck of the Dirge active. This is before GU36 brought my blocking% from 9.6 to 12.3% in persona. Also before GU36, just for comparison, I blocked 36 times and parried 29 times in my last MMIS run. A far cry from your 15 count... simply because I gear myself correctly. Once I actually fight anything interesting, I might post "after GU36" numbers. </blockquote>1.) Since when could we use round shields? I thought we were restricted to bucklers.2.) How can we use a parry adorn when we don't have a parry skill?I knew about the +block adorn but I wasn't gonna plop down 10+ plat for a fabled adorn when the AA line is still crap.

EQAditu

06-29-2007, 04:11 PM

<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote>EQAditu wrote: 1.) Since when could we use round shields? I thought we were restricted to bucklers.2.) How can we use a parry adorn when we don't have a parry skill?I knew about the +block adorn but I wasn't gonna plop down 10+ plat for a fabled adorn when the AA line is still crap. </blockquote> 1: PvE can use like 2 T7 round shields. PvP can use like 5. 2: It is not +parry, it is an uncontested parry% chance regardless of your skill. Like Mystics(?) or Conjs can get a parry% AA without parry skill. You can call it crap all you want, but I find it hard to listen to your opinion when you don't even use the line correctly.

Kizee

06-29-2007, 04:20 PM

<cite>EQAditu wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote>EQAditu wrote: 1.) Since when could we use round shields? I thought we were restricted to bucklers.2.) How can we use a parry adorn when we don't have a parry skill?I knew about the +block adorn but I wasn't gonna plop down 10+ plat for a fabled adorn when the AA line is still crap. </blockquote> 1: PvE can use like 2 T7 round shields. PvP can use like 5. 2: It is not +parry, it is an uncontested parry% chance regardless of your skill. Like Mystics(?) or Conjs can get a parry% AA without parry skill. You can call it crap all you want, but I find it hard to listen to your opinion when you don't even use the line correctly. </blockquote>Yeah, I guess it makes sence that I need to use one of 2 t7 trash roundshields to get the most out of a AA line. <img src="/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> There was no need to get snippy about anything. I was just asking a question since I have never used shields before nor played another class that used them.

Occam

06-29-2007, 04:37 PM

I know the Bulwark of the Brave is from a SoS quest, but where is the Disc of Protection from? I've searched around and nobody seems to have any info on it.I was thinking of trying Shield Ally out anyway, and it's looking like it might just give more benefit now then the heal crits. The operative word there is "might". I've always specced for the heal crits so I can't say at this point just how much I'll lose.

EQAditu

06-29-2007, 04:42 PM

Yes, they are absolutely bad shields for a Templar in most cases. It's hard to deny that... the PvP ones slightly nicer though T6 Fabled. But when it comes down to it, losing some stats in one slot of your character is worth it to me to have a skill that rivals Unyielding Benediction. You have to admit that it's exceptionally hard to find someone who will badmouth our stoneskin spell. I apologize if you found any of my comments "snippy" but you called my favorite AA line "crap" without you ever using it "correctly".

Istaril

06-29-2007, 04:50 PM

I'm going to try it. I have some manas to spare, as of yesterday, and just picked up one of the shields for 50g off the broker. Before EH tomorrow, I'll spec Agi 4-4-8-8-2 Int 4-4-7-8. Depending on the use I get out of the AE immunity, I might buy DR again. I should have a very large sample size to look at from EH, so I'll know pretty quickly whether the 35p and a respec I just dropped made a difference <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

Kizee

06-29-2007, 04:54 PM

<cite>EQAditu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes, they are absolutely bad shields for a Templar in most cases. It's hard to deny that... the PvP ones slightly nicer though T6 Fabled. But when it comes down to it, losing some stats in one slot of your character is worth it to me to have a skill that rivals Unyielding Benediction. You have to admit that it's exceptionally hard to find someone who will badmouth our stoneskin spell. I apologize if you found any of my comments "snippy" but you called my favorite AA line "crap" without you ever using it "correctly". </blockquote>I didn't mean to come across as thinking the line sucked.... i just thought it should offer more than it seemed to. I want the line to work since I love to better the MT as much as I can.I honestly didn't realize that we could use roundshields..... or are there only certain ones that we can use? It really sucks that I couldn't fine any fabled roundshields either.....Since you use the line all the time is there a way to filder the blocks out in a seperate window so I don't have to look for them thru the miss spam? Either that or set up your act parser to see the blocks?

Kizee

06-29-2007, 04:58 PM

<cite>Istaril wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm going to try it. I have some manas to spare, as of yesterday, and just picked up one of the shields for 50g off the broker. Before EH tomorrow, I'll spec Agi 4-4-8-8-2 Int 4-4-7-8. Depending on the use I get out of the AE immunity, I might buy DR again. I should have a very large sample size to look at from EH, so I'll know pretty quickly whether the 35p and a respec I just dropped made a difference <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. </blockquote> Should keep the crits and lose the casting speed. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I really don't miss the quicker casting since it only took 1/2 a sec off the slowest heals.

EQAditu

06-29-2007, 05:17 PM

<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since you use the line all the time is there a way to filder the blocks out in a seperate window so I don't have to look for them thru the miss spam? Either that or set up your act parser to see the blocks?</blockquote>I do not know of a good way to do it within EQ2. Within ACT, there was actually a discussion on this a long time ago, so that's easy to answer. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Within ACT's Triggers/Sounds tab, you can make a trigger with a results page and/or sound with a simple regex like: ".+but YOU (?:block|parry)". The limitation of that is it will trigger for when a mob attacks you directly and you block/parry. A second option, but also limited, is ".+?tries to [^ ]+ ([A-z]+)(?: with .+?)?, but (?(?=1|miss)[*Nothing*]|.+)." ...this will trigger for anyone blocking for someone else(IE not themselves). The first option is probably fine, as you don't really care as much if another Fighter is blocking for another. Also, if you look at the lowest level tables of an encounter in ACT, you'll see things like "Miss", "parry", etc... but you will also see things like "YOU block"... meaning you caused the block and not the person being attacked.

Kizee

06-29-2007, 11:14 PM

<cite>EQAditu wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since you use the line all the time is there a way to filder the blocks out in a seperate window so I don't have to look for them thru the miss spam? Either that or set up your act parser to see the blocks?</blockquote>I do not know of a good way to do it within EQ2. Within ACT, there was actually a discussion on this a long time ago, so that's easy to answer. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Within ACT's Triggers/Sounds tab, you can make a trigger with a results page and/or sound with a simple regex like: ".+but YOU (?:block|parry)". The limitation of that is it will trigger for when a mob attacks you directly and you block/parry. A second option, but also limited, is ".+?tries to [^ ]+ ([A-z]+)(?: with .+?)?, but (?(?=1|miss)[*Nothing*]|.+)." ...this will trigger for anyone blocking for someone else(IE not themselves). The first option is probably fine, as you don't really care as much if another Fighter is blocking for another. Also, if you look at the lowest level tables of an encounter in ACT, you'll see things like "Miss", "parry", etc... but you will also see things like "YOU block"... meaning you caused the block and not the person being attacked. </blockquote> Thanks for the helpful info... spent about 25p tonight and it was firing off alot more than it was before. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I was looking at some shields and what would be better.... the treasured shield like you have or buckler of the howler since it has +5 parry instead of the +3 from the treasued one? I am assuming the raw parry would be better than the extra protection you get from the round shield.

Istaril

06-30-2007, 11:32 AM

Addition to the parry skill make no difference to your ability to shield yourself, OR your ally. We don't have the Parry skill as a class skill. Gaining "7" in it won't do anything at all. You won't start parrying. The Wrist adornments don't increase your parry skill by 2%, they increase your ability to parry by 2% (From 0 to 2, and 2-4, for the two of them). So in other words, parry is irrelevant. Only the protection of the Buckler/Round Shield in question is relevant to your ability to use shield ally.

EQAditu

06-30-2007, 05:53 PM

Exactly right... +parry won't help us as parry% does. Though honestly I was surprised to see +% to parry incoming attacks work on Shield Ally as strictly speaking, the attack was not incoming to us. I still miss having a parry skill from before LU13. <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Also another note, it seems that % parry doesn't even mechanically work the same as real parry in any way. I already mentioned that the percentage was uncontested by epic mobs, but it also seems impossible for 20% of parries to become a riposte as with normal parry. For a previous post... the Disc of Protection is said to have come from The Vaults of El'Arad.

Mabes

07-02-2007, 01:03 PM

Interesting, I may play around with this some, though I don't think I could live with parting with int line because of divine arbitration and spell casting haste, so would end up dropping sta line to get it.

myth327-2

07-09-2007, 12:04 PM

After reading the detailed information Aditu posted on the SA line I decided to give it a shot. I'm now specced 4488 STA/AGI. I have the 2 wrist parry adornments but haven't been able to get the shield adornment yet and I'm using the Bulwark of the Brave she recommended. I also set up a custom trigger sting to catch when it proc'd saving to a table and sounding a chime. After making these changes I ran a couple insta zone's and DT. I'm at work so I don't have the hard numbers in front of me, but I don't think I'm getting as high of a proc rate as I should. It only proc'd twice while killing Tarinax, but it proc'd 5 or 6 times on the stupid trap worms. The questions I have are in regards to encounter and positioning. From the limited testing I've done so far it seems to proc lots more in multi mob encounters or when the mob has the tank flanked. Has anyone else thats using this line noticed this?? Does my positioning have any effect on proc rate?? Even though I miss Divine Recovery already, I think this line will be better for me as I'm usually in MT group. I would like to make sure I'm getting the max benefit from it though. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

kal-l

07-09-2007, 03:51 PM

Your position has no effect on the proc rate of the ability unless something is broken with it. The only thing that matters is if you are within 20 meters of your target (tank) and that's further than heal range so no problem there. My best guess for why you saw the number of procs you did (based on my knowledge of the encounters) is as follows, and if I'm wrong then someone please feel free to correct me.Tarinax has an extremely slow attack speed and once he's debuffed its even slower. I'm guessing the fight wasn't very long so there are a lot fewer opportunities to proc your ability. Also, Tarinax memwipes so if he swings at anyone but the tank you are shielding it won't have a chance to proc. The worm traps, on the other hand, have a large number of mobs attacking the tank all at once (depending on the trap of course). Also, they are all swinging at the tank (at least I would hope) and there is less time for their attack speed to be debuffed. So, more swings = more chances for your shield proc to work.I hope that helps =)

EQAditu

07-09-2007, 08:08 PM

Exactly as kal-l said. Don't look at how many times it worked, period. I could say that it worked for me 3000 times... but in the context of what? Look at how often it worked compared to how many times it could have worked. Only then will you know how well it is working out. Also remember mob level can affect things... Tarinax is an orange con, while trap mobs are yellow... it would only be natural that the ratio of it working be lower on an orange con. If you go to extremes though, like grey mobs... the tank himself may avoid 95% of the attacks by himself, giving Shield Ally almost no chance to work. That's the problem with parsing second tier avoidance. You can't get accurate numbers for the simple reason that tier one will skew the data that has nothing to do with tier two, and yet you cannot separate them. As for positioning, I have never seen anything that could block it. You don't even have to be able to see the person you are protecting, or the mob.

Asherman

07-10-2007, 10:52 AM

I gave Shield Ally a try over the last week to see if it was a viable option for me and had mixed results. To test I used the Disc of Protection, shield block adorn and 2 w rist parry adorns. Tracking parrys and blocks done by me for the MT in ACT I got these results. Free Thinkers Hideout - 79 Inner Sanctum - 63 Clockwork Menace - 27 Throne room - 144 Death Toll - 82 Contested Mayong - 5 Avatar of Below - 9 Some not bad results over the course of an instance but not fantastic on single mob fights. In the end I went back to a Sta + Int setup as I found I personally missed the reduced casting time and didn't want to drop the crit heal bonus. Although I didn't try it, one possible addition to this setup for a higher block rate could be using the Runed Combine Talisman in the ranged slot.

Istaril

07-10-2007, 12:48 PM

Just out of curiosity, try multiplying the average damage taken per hit of the tank by the amount you blocked/parried (So if avatar was hitting for 2000 * 9 = 18000), and see how that compares to the ~3.5% of your healing the 15.6% crit accounts for. I think you'll find that in most cases the Shield Ally results in a net greater healing/prevention capacity than the crit heals. Now these numbers *are* inflated for various reasons; there's a chance (~32%) a stoneskin will absorb the hit - so let's reduce the value of the prevented by that much. Still pretty significant. We can further reduce it by assuming that it's reducing damage that would have been healed by *otherwise unused* wards, hots, and reactives - but we'd *still* be left with this AA being extremely useful, and for an MT healer, better than Heal crit in almost every case. Unless I'm completely missing something. Let's take a sample calculation from last night's Malkonis. Total Malkonis "Swings" = 314 Total amount I blocked/parried = 17 Total Percentage of Swings Blocked = 5.4% Total Damage Malkonis did to the tank = 252580 % of which was melee = ~52% Total Damage Malkonis did via melee = 131341 Damage 5.4% of 131341 = 6567 Damage Avoided by my block/parry. [A third of which would have been stoneskined, so let's say 4373] Total amount healed = 90330 3.5% of which can be attributed to my crit heal AAs = 3161 Damage Healed from my Heal Crit AAs Agility line seems the clear victor in this sample. Mileage may vary, of course, but Agility also has the advantage of being up at all times regardless of your power pool, dispells, mobs curing themselves... the list goes on. I'd say the two AA lines are neck and neck - the more the tank is avoiding, and the more damage people other than the tank are taking, the better the Heal crits. The weaker the tank's ability to avoid, and the more damage the main tank is taking - the better the Agi line. On MO last night, for example, Heal crits come out *way* ahead of AGI, because the MOs ability to hit the main tank is dismal to start with, and most of the damage is actually going to players other than the MT. On Chel'drak, 17 parry/block (a much weaker tank) = 8.7% block, 71% of incomming damage was slashing, 16399 damage prevented (32% would have been stoneskined, so 10932) .I healed 263652 (new recruit warders with no power, christ), 3.5% of heal amount = aa crits = 9227 from heal crits.

Kizee

07-10-2007, 02:21 PM

I love Agil AA line since I got the block and parry adorns.I don't miss the faster casting speed since it only knocked off 1/2 a sec on the slowest heals for a ton of points invested.I added up the blocks/parrys/stoneskins on my last run thru thrown room and had 411 blocks for MT. That is a crapload of damage prevented especially from the guardsmen.The only thing I hate is using a POS treasured shield to get the most out of the AA line. <img src="/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Also, It would be nice if they fixed the AOE immuntity recast to 1 minute like they said it was in patch notes. <img src="/smilies/1069449046bcd664c21db15b1dfedaee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

EQAditu

07-10-2007, 06:07 PM

<cite>Asherman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some not bad results over the course of an instance but not fantastic on single mob fights. In the end I went back to a Sta + Int setup as I found I personally missed the reduced casting time and didn't want to drop the crit heal bonus. Although I didn't try it, one possible addition to this setup for a higher block rate could be using the Runed Combine Talisman in the ranged slot. </blockquote> Blah, you did exactly what I said not to do... only look at how many times it went off without considering a single other thing. The post from Istaril is the sort of calculations you should really be making. That's what tells you what the AA is actually doing. The Runed Combine Talisman, while usable in ranged, does not give any protection value while in that slot.

myth327-2

07-10-2007, 09:04 PM

Since Aditu is the creator of the best parser in the game, and just happens to be a member of the best healing class in the game, what are the chances we might see an upgrade to ACT that tracks SA as well as our stoneskin in the future? I have to believe that she knows the math much better than I ever will, but I think a better way of tracking this would lead to more people seeing its value. I know that damage amounts for SA can't really be calculated accurately, but seeing a percentage value would really help. Right now I have a custom trigger to catch when the SA procs, but I don't know how to track when stoneskin procs to get a comparison. Alot of it could be I'm just not smart enough to use ACT to its fullest, and I don't know what it would take to add these features. But I thought with the direction this thread is going, it would be a good question to ask. =) Either way, thanks for ACT and all the help in understanding how to correctly use SA and how to calculate its effects somewhat.

EQAditu

07-11-2007, 02:26 AM

Brawlers etc have every so often asked me for some sort of avoidance calculator or something... and I suppose this would fall under that. I suppose I could build all of the calculations needed for this stuff into that report. I admit doing it by hand is not only non-foolproof, but time consuming.

Hoopak

07-12-2007, 02:09 PM

ok. so exactly which is better the t7 forearm adornment for parry +7 or the t6 block adornment?

Cyirus

07-12-2007, 02:46 PM

Have a question slightly off topic.. well really off topic.When is the most effective best time to use Divine Arbitration? I assume its when your tank is very very low and everybody else is almost maxxed in health. Wanted to make sure I was using it correctly. Also: Focused Intercession: What's the overall opinion of this spell and usefullness?Thanks

Istaril

07-12-2007, 04:33 PM

The 1% (Shield) Block Adornment (T6, Lambent Balanced Strut - Carpenter) The 2% (Wrist) Parry Adornment (T7, Scintillating Balanced Fastening - Sage) Which is better? The wrist adornments are - coincidentally, they're also much more expensive <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Completely off topic ; Divine Arbitration can be used when the tank is low (but NOT when someone is dead or zoning - ever), or when the tank is stable and someone else is low. It is best safed for an emergency - like right before an AE where two group members would die without it, or something similar. It's BEST use, though, is as a cross-zone heal to save a group member who has wandered off and is training to get to you (or some similar scenario - like getting pk'd halfway across the world). Focussed Intercession has the following advantages - the procs are bigger than other reactives, it's dirt-cheap power wise, and it has a fast casting time. When to use? When the other reactives are waiting on recast (or don't have time to be cast) on a target being hit quickly. Or when you're desperately pressed for power, but can't afford to use single target heals. It's also *extremely* useful in pvp, where hits come much faster than from mobs, and can act as a CHeal if timed right. Finally, it can be used as a pre-heal - stacking 3 reactives for massive early spikes (extremely rare cases - like a raid mob with no warders present and enough debuffs that will go up to smoothen damage after initial spikes). Finally, if you need to take an emergency AFK break, focussed intercession on a group tank (not in raids) is a better choice than a target or group reactive.

Hoopak

07-12-2007, 04:59 PM

I thought i noticed a t7 +7 parry forearm adornment. Just want to make sure that parry affects shield ally or not.

Istaril

07-12-2007, 06:01 PM

As has been mentioned.... frequently... within this topic... we do not have the Parry skill, so adding 7 to it does nothing. Using a flat 2% boost to it, though, grants us 2% parry. Shield Ally ONLY uses your Block (Based off the "protection" value of your shield) and Parry (max of 2*2%, with 2 parry adornments).

Hoopak

07-12-2007, 08:02 PM

just making sure i understood that right.

EQAditu

07-12-2007, 11:07 PM

I just want to mention that avoiding every other cast of Furious Storm(stifle) from Gardener with Holy Shield is great. Throw in Sanctuary and Freedom of Mind and that's the first 5 AEs you more or less avoid. With group cure arcane... that's essentially your whole group protected if you throw up Aegis of Faith as well.

Krymson

07-13-2007, 11:56 AM

With the mention of Furious Storm, does the new Steadfast stifle immunity prevent the stifle portion of Storm? It would seem like it should, but its wording implies that it won't prevent all types of stifle.

EQAditu

07-15-2007, 12:31 PM

An Inquisitor friend tested it out and said that the stifle immunity would toggle on and off quickly as time went by. Supposedly more off than on. I imagine it would work on any type of stifle though... at least ones you're supposed to be able to cure etc.

Dekedar

07-15-2007, 12:41 PM

I used to use SA but respeced for crit heals along with faster casting, after reading this I respeced back for SA, but now my question is which provides more benefit, increased casting speed or crit heals,I definitely like divine recovery, but I think crit heals may be more beneficial.

Istaril

07-15-2007, 01:54 PM

It's a toss-up. I have a Vrak-claw club, so I'm satisfied staying down STA (4-4-7-<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> with AGI (4-4-8-8-2). But really, any combination of Shield Ally, Heal Crits, and Faster Casting = just fine. You're not gimping your character by not having heal crits (accounts for about 3.5% of your heals), you're not gimping him by not having fast cast. Just because double-attack and melee crit work well together, doesn't make AGI/sta any better - as fastcast/casting crits does the same (working synergistically). Holy Shield is a very powerful tool, but Divine Recovery comes in pretty handy too. I'd say that the default spec for a templar should be STA/Int, but once he can afford the adornments/shield which supports Shield Ally, and *if* he is a main-tank RAID healer consistently, he should drop one of Sta/Int for Agi (4-4-8-8, at least, and probably 4-4-8-8-2). I've spent quite a while working at the stats, and of the three lines there's no clear winner.

EQAditu

07-17-2007, 04:34 AM

I thought I would show off the to-be-released Avoidance Report coming with the next version of ACT. <img src="http://home.maine.rr.com/eqaditu/avoid-report.png" border="0"> That was from through a full run of MMIS I did today. The average damage avoided calculations is not simply determined by taking a mob's average attack and multiplying it by the number of occurrences. It takes the average attack, of that type, that the mob inflicted on that person only. That way if the mob hit a bunch of dumbfire pets, the average is not inflated. Except when the mob never successfully hits that specific person, then it uses the average on anyone as a fallback. That's the most accurate way I could think of making a theoretical calculation. I was going to leave it that, but for the sake of comparison... healing crits only accounted for 25-36k of my 611k healing for that zone depending on how you try to calculate it. However that's about as low as it will get as I was not the only Templar there. The other Templar maintained single target reactives on the MT so I could concentrate on the group only spells AND the other Templar did heal proc debuffs (32% of her healing). I still came in 3rd on the heal parses though, so it could be worse. To be honest, I'm somewhat surprised at the results. Shield Ally prevented far more in comparison to how much healing crits added for me on the same run. Even if you add the two Templar's healing together, it doesn't come close. Of course I feel the need to point out the flaw of comparing two things that are not at all alike. *shrug*

Istaril

07-17-2007, 06:15 AM

Which pretty much matches the calculations I ran by hand earlier on (this topic? it was these boards at least <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). The comparison may be apple and oranges, but once you factor in a few more factors (as I did) - like the chance of a stoneskin that would have negated a hit you did avoid - you get a fairly realistic impression of the damage YOU prevented, and heal crits are easy to calculate the damage YOU healed. One is focussed on an important target, the other is spread out over many... And as the tanks avoidance rises, as the number of targets taking damage rises, as the mob's non-melee damage rises in comparison to it's melee - STA line becomes better. But I'll take the passive, mana-free, lag-independent Shield Ally <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. That, and holy shield is a godsend - as mentioned, saved me alot of trouble on Gardener.

myth327-2

07-17-2007, 02:27 PM

Very nice Aditu, I'm sure I'm not the only one who will get Great use out of this. Thanks ever so much, I look forward to playing with it to see how much I'm actually doing =)

TheBu

07-24-2007, 03:55 PM

u rock Aditu. That avoidance report is great.and we can see the "You parry" so the adornments do work... will any thing else... hum intresting we do not see a monk or pally avoid in ther for ur tank... u guys running three healers? What about intercede will it show up in a report or some where else?

Tuttiax

07-25-2007, 07:40 PM

how much of an impact will the changes to lend shielding be? On TC it sounds like lend shield will cancel if placed on a character that's being used as an additional avoidance modifier. I'm not sure if I'm understanding that right or not.

EQAditu

07-25-2007, 09:07 PM

<cite>Tuttiax wrote:</cite><blockquote>how much of an impact will the changes to lend shielding be? On TC it sounds like lend shield will cancel if placed on a character that's being used as an additional avoidance modifier. I'm not sure if I'm understanding that right or not. </blockquote>None of my Dirges use Lend Shielding, so for me... there will be absolutely no impact. The patch is fixing a mechanics exploit that most had decided would be fixed eventually. Shield Ally stands alone quite nicely without it. <cite>TheBuzZ wrote:</cite><blockquote>u rock Aditu. That avoidance report is great.and we can see the "You parry" so the adornments do work... will any thing else... hum intresting we do not see a monk or pally avoid in ther for ur tank... u guys running three healers? What about intercede will it show up in a report or some where else?</blockquote>Other classes such as brawlers/crusaders using their buff along side with Shield Ally will show up much the same. Instead of "YOU block", you might see something like "Crusader1 parries". I don't think that intercede shows up in log files as anything I can parse. Stoneskin isn't logged either... I just make assumptions based on removing other possibilities. It's possible that a 100% intercede shows up as "No Damage", thus is counted under the shared stoneskin row.

wesblueeyes

07-26-2007, 11:33 AM

I think the biggest reason some pick the line with shield blocks is for the end ability to avoid AE's. In my opinion the line is garbage but that end ability to be able to give an ally AE avoid for 30s with a 1.5 minute refresh is godly. In the MT group you can toss this ability on yourself or a fellow healer right before an AE goes off (if you use timers correctly) to prevent a lot of bad things happening. For instance you are fighting the new Mayong in Throne room, you can toss the avoid up right before he does the AE stun allowing someone in your group (you or another healer) to be able to cure it ASAP. There are plenty of EoF raid mobs that do AE stuns in the higher ends, especially Avatars. All that being said that is one reason to spec into that end line ability. I am currently spec'd STR/INT but I am not a MT Templar. I am a dps Templar normally placed in the mage group (yes I can pull 1600 dps so we CAN dps if spec'd right).The benifits of the STR line for a cleric in my position are many.1. The STR line offers a 40% proc rate (which is 50% with blessings) that procs whenever you do a melee or spell attack. I prefer to use spells only so it goes off quit a bit.2. There is also a nice 1% per rank and some focus per rank ability that helps you take a few more hits (I think at 6 ranks it added about 700hp)3. The end line ability of STR makes you immune to interupts and a chance to become immune to stifle. Now I have never seen the stifle part proc but I can tell you the interupt part works great. Example: Fighting contested Mayong you get bat adds that sometimes proc a stun. Whenever it hits you normally, you stop casting. Howeve with this ability I get hit with it and I finish out my spell. This has really pulled my mages out of the fire since I can complete that group heal/reactive. Pretty much unless you get tossed up in the air you will NEVER get interupted.Anyways my current spec is STR 4-4-8-6-End, INT 4-4-7-8-End in KOS and fully done in the Blessings line for all the debuffs and selectively spec'd all way down the Smite Wrath line in EoF.This current setup I can tell you from experience I have done a month in. So far I have done Avatars of Flame, Growth, Tranq, Hate, War, and Valor along with all the contested in EOF and zones. Basically I am saying I have come to respect the spec but I would not espose it if you are the MT templar, only if you do mages or offtank.

Tuttiax

07-26-2007, 11:37 AM

excellent thanks.

Drazmarth

08-02-2007, 03:46 PM

I just respec'd for the AGI and STA lines. I think they are going to work out great and I did try out the round shield for the extra protection. I noticed a problem in the AGI line. The shield bash works with a buckler but does not work with the round shield. Has anyone else had this problem and if so has there been a bug submitted for this? I thought they took out the type of shield requirement for these like the weapon ones.

Istaril

08-04-2007, 08:17 AM

It's intentional, as far as we know. Supposed to only work with bucklers - and still does. It seems that Templars using Round Shields at all is an oversight... but enjoy it while you can. Just throw in a command to equip a buckler before you use the mez - the problem is easily avoided. And as an aside - I was really worried (being me) that AGI/STA would seriously cripple my DPS. On the contrary - it's actually worked out very nicely. My Parses in MT group have gone up considerably, and as we've lost our other templar, I've no longer got the chance to run around with a troub in group, so it's all worked out for the best. EH 2nd floor trash (fun test dummies): [Sorted by ExtDPS, Listing DPS] MT group = Coercer, Dirge, Berserker, Templar, Warden, Defiler No clickies, no god abilities... just straight up Templar goodness. Allies: (00:5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1587128 | 27364.28 CONJ 139926 -|- 2798.52 DPS SWASH 124689 -|- 2397.87 DPS ILLU 116654 -|- 2333.08 DPS SWASH 112130 -|- 2491.78 DPS Istaril 108599 -|- 1974.53 DPS [Removed for Content] 98309 -|- 1966.18 DPS NECRO 96582 -|- 2054.94 DPS WIZ 94648 -|- 1855.84 DPS BERSERKER 91115 -|- 1627.05 DPS BRIG 89941 -|- 1729.64 DPS BRIG 82248 -|- 1551.85 DPS GUARD 76750 -|- 1504.90 DPS COERCER 63011 -|- 1260.22 DPS DIRGE 61856 -|- 1237.12 DPS

Krymson

08-04-2007, 02:24 PM

<cite>Istaril wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's intentional, as far as we know. Supposed to only work with bucklers - and still does. It seems that Templars using Round Shields at all is an oversight... but enjoy it while you can. Just throw in a command to equip a buckler before you use the mez - the problem is easily avoided. And as an aside - I was really worried (being me) that AGI/STA would seriously cripple my DPS. On the contrary - it's actually worked out very nicely. My Parses in MT group have gone up considerably, and as we've lost our other templar, I've no longer got the chance to run around with a troub in group, so it's all worked out for the best. EH 2nd floor trash (fun test dummies): [Sorted by ExtDPS, Listing DPS] MT group = Coercer, Dirge, Berserker, Templar, Warden, Defiler No clickies, no god abilities... just straight up Templar goodness. Allies: (00:5<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1587128 | 27364.28 CONJ 139926 -|- 2798.52 DPS SWASH 124689 -|- 2397.87 DPS ILLU 116654 -|- 2333.08 DPS SWASH 112130 -|- 2491.78 DPS Istaril 108599 -|- 1974.53 DPS [I cannot control my vocabulary] 98309 -|- 1966.18 DPS NECRO 96582 -|- 2054.94 DPS WIZ 94648 -|- 1855.84 DPS BERSERKER 91115 -|- 1627.05 DPS BRIG 89941 -|- 1729.64 DPS BRIG 82248 -|- 1551.85 DPS GUARD 76750 -|- 1504.90 DPS COERCER 63011 -|- 1260.22 DPS DIRGE 61856 -|- 1237.12 DPS </blockquote> And this parse was done with 1H and shield (using Shield Ally)? Or was this with the Vrak club?

Gagla

08-04-2007, 04:56 PM

For those templars raiding in Qeynos on PVP servers, I've just noticed there is a lvl 55 Roundshield equipable by priests with 700+ protection available from the merchants in QH. Alas, I am in exile and am unable to try it out.

Istaril

08-04-2007, 08:11 PM

That was with a vrak club, though my inquisitor friend swears by his grim brimstone hammer... which I have yet to get my hands on. The trash didn't merit shield ally. Getting the same results (1.8-1.9k tops) on third floor trash today.

Krymson

08-05-2007, 02:04 AM

I've been running STA/INT since time began, it seems. If I can get my guild to go along with it, I'm going to how they feel about me going AGI/STA (I've always been bad about casting Divine Recovery anyway) and helping with the trio of adornments. Oddly enough it would probably be easier for me to get a Grim Brimstone Hammer than the Vrak Club.

Kizee

08-06-2007, 09:00 AM

<cite>Krymson wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've been running STA/INT since time began, it seems. If I can get my guild to go along with it, I'm going to how they feel about me going AGI/STA (I've always been bad about casting Divine Recovery anyway) and helping with the trio of adornments. Oddly enough it would probably be easier for me to get a Grim Brimstone Hammer than the Vrak Club. </blockquote> If you guild lets you? <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If you are the MT templar then why wouldn't they let you use a spec that will help the MT block attacks more?

LowfyrWildforge

08-07-2007, 01:57 PM

If you're the MT templar and you're not dedicating your full time to healing the raid, who is picking up the slack? Someone with better DPS than you. Take a hit for the team, and stop worrying about how big of a dps badarse you are. If the encounter's that trivial that heals aren't needed at all, then have the tank go offensive. Still too trivial? Transmute the firebrand gloves for me, they look like oven mitts.

Istaril

08-07-2007, 03:08 PM

That's EH trash. The Tank WAS in offensive... why wouldn't he be? It's trivial stuff. My point was that my full-heal STA/AGI line has not crippled my versatility - my ability to contribute to the raid when my healing isn't needed. Where before I relied entirely on my nukes, now I rely on hybrid dps - but the end result is even more satisfying for an MT group. Preheals and debuffs maintained, the tank took 12991 damage (total) in that specific parse. I'd have been slacking if I wasn't trying to DPS. And I'm afraid I'm not sure I follow about the firebrand gloves.

Krymson

08-07-2007, 03:38 PM

<cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krymson wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've been running STA/INT since time began, it seems. If I can get my guild to go along with it, I'm going to how they feel about me going AGI/STA (I've always been bad about casting Divine Recovery anyway) and helping with the trio of adornments. Oddly enough it would probably be easier for me to get a Grim Brimstone Hammer than the Vrak Club. </blockquote> If you guild lets you? <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If you are the MT templar then why wouldn't they let you use a spec that will help the MT block attacks more?</blockquote>No, no. Not if they let me, if they go along with it. Some people <3 Divine Recovery. Like I said, I'm pretty shoddy at cycling it in anyway either cuz I'm a bad player or because I don't care quite enough about it to keep it coming in a MT setting. The avoidance parses with theoretical number make plenty of sense to me, now it's just a matter of getting the adornments and explaining why I'm using a treasured KoS shield. And as for the firebrand gloves comment? Unless I'm missing something it was just a random slam on the oven mitt model.

Larcain

08-07-2007, 07:51 PM

<cite>Krymson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krymson wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've been running STA/INT since time began, it seems. If I can get my guild to go along with it, I'm going to how they feel about me going AGI/STA (I've always been bad about casting Divine Recovery anyway) and helping with the trio of adornments. Oddly enough it would probably be easier for me to get a Grim Brimstone Hammer than the Vrak Club. </blockquote> If you guild lets you? <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If you are the MT templar then why wouldn't they let you use a spec that will help the MT block attacks more?</blockquote>No, no. Not if they let me, if they go along with it. Some people <3 Divine Recovery. Like I said, I'm pretty shoddy at cycling it in anyway either cuz I'm a bad player or because I don't care quite enough about it to keep it coming in a MT setting. The avoidance parses with theoretical number make plenty of sense to me, now it's just a matter of getting the adornments and explaining why I'm using a treasured KoS shield. And as for the firebrand gloves comment? Unless I'm missing something it was just a random slam on the oven mitt model. </blockquote>I , personally, use DR as an ace in the hole. When the tank starts taking spike damage, I use DR to put as much healing on him as I can. I don't cycle DR in most fights simply because most fights are not won or lost on dps. They are lost because of aggro issues or damage spike issues and I am not willing to risk losing my tank because DR was used to generate dps. But, heck, thats me.

Kizee

08-08-2007, 09:12 AM

<cite>Larcain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krymson wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kizee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krymson wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've been running STA/INT since time began, it seems. If I can get my guild to go along with it, I'm going to how they feel about me going AGI/STA (I've always been bad about casting Divine Recovery anyway) and helping with the trio of adornments. Oddly enough it would probably be easier for me to get a Grim Brimstone Hammer than the Vrak Club. </blockquote> If you guild lets you? <img src="/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If you are the MT templar then why wouldn't they let you use a spec that will help the MT block attacks more?</blockquote>No, no. Not if they let me, if they go along with it. Some people <3 Divine Recovery. Like I said, I'm pretty shoddy at cycling it in anyway either cuz I'm a bad player or because I don't care quite enough about it to keep it coming in a MT setting. The avoidance parses with theoretical number make plenty of sense to me, now it's just a matter of getting the adornments and explaining why I'm using a treasured KoS shield. And as for the firebrand gloves comment? Unless I'm missing something it was just a random slam on the oven mitt model. </blockquote>I , personally, use DR as an ace in the hole. When the tank starts taking spike damage, I use DR to put as much healing on him as I can. I don't cycle DR in most fights simply because most fights are not won or lost on dps. They are lost because of aggro issues or damage spike issues and I am not willing to risk losing my tank because DR was used to generate dps. But, heck, thats me. </blockquote>I was the same way when I was speced intel. I didn't want to use DR because I was scared it would be down when i actually needed it for rapid healing.

LowfyrWildforge

08-08-2007, 11:15 AM

It would be kind of silly to shield bash if you didn't have a shield on at all. Since Templars are only supposed to be able to use Bucklers, if you're not using a buckler, you're clearly not using a shield. Whining about this oversight is much more likely to get the equippable round shields made unusable than the round shields added to shield bash. Incidentally, there's really not that big of a difference between the Bulwark of the Brave, and the Festering Flesh Buckler. I expect, by the time t8 rolls around, this round shield equipping nonsense will be finally over.