Raiding Templars: new AA's: Yeah? Nay? or I dont give a rat's buttoodie?

[Airreilyn]

I have been a raiding templar for over a year now. I have been settled with the sta and int lines. The new changes that SOE has implemented with gu36, I am not too excited about. Am I missing something? Woot! I have two new damage spells that i dont have to switch gear to use, that's nice, but where am I going to put them, I wonder. Does anyone have thoughts on making any changes? Just curious.

[Calare]

I won't be changing.  Nothing worth switching for if you're raiding IMO. Calare Nebra 70 Templar Paragon Everfrost

[Kizee]

I tried agil line last night.

I really don't miss the casting speed reduction since it only really took .5 second off my slowest casting heal but I am not sure if I like the line or not.

I boosted my avoidance to about 40% (close to 500 agil raid buffed and a nice 444 mit +7 defence buckler) and only blocked 15 times on a whole MMIS run.

I think that SoE needs to change the 60% to block using templars avoidance to 100% to use templars avoidance because:

1.) templars can't get very high avoidance without parry and there is almost never agil on "templarish" armor.

2.) we are seeing a double check as its set up now.... the game checks to see if we have a chance to block then checks our avoidance. Doesn't seem very fair.

1 thing nice about the line is the 30 second AoE immune that you can cast on anybody with a 1.5 min recast.

[Istaril]

I specc'ed full PvP (Str 4-4-8-6-2, Sta 4-7-4-8-2) last night, for some variety (we won't be raiding untill saturday, and I was convinced we'd have our 5 re-spec's by then) - and it's been a great deal of fun. Also a godsend for completing SoD, which we did in a glorious frenzy. Templar training FTW! For raids, though, my changes are limited to throwing 3 points from +Int to Castigation, STA 4-4-4-8  (20 points spent for ~4% net increase in heals) Int 4-7-8-8-2 However, I'd like to point out to the raiding clerics out there that while STA line will net ~ a 4% increase in your healing power, Wisdom line will yield ~8% less power use on heals (depending on your initial ministration, and cheating in the points of power gained from +wis ranks). If power is what's limiting your healing ability, wisdom is actually a viable choice (and will benefit your debuffs landing too!). I don't, sadly, have any good numbers for Shield Ally with a decent shield (say Festering shield from unrest) and the new + protection from dbl attack.

[EQAditu]

Kizee wrote:

I boosted my avoidance to about 40% (close to 500 agil raid buffed and a nice 444 mit +7 defence buckler) and only blocked 15 times on a whole MMIS run.

No one seems to read my posts on the subject, so I keep seeing stuff like this.  I'll fight the urge to put it in caps or bold, so just read it instead. Do not look at your total avoidance number.  It does not mean what you think it does.  You cannot give your base avoidance to your Shield Ally target.  That means your defense and AGI are 100% meaningless.  Try to boost them, and you will be disappointed.  If you are serious about using Shield Ally, you must use one of the two 600+ protection round shields: Bulwark of the Brave, Disc of Protection.  Using a buckler with 1/3rd less protection is a bad idea.  Adornments: Lambent Balanced Strut, Scintillating Balanced Fastening(it's 2% uncontested parry now).  Before the changes, that had me at 9.6% blocking, 4% parry... both seemingly uncontested by epic class mobs. Against one Mayong battle:  (BEFORE GU36) Hits: 70 (13 hits brought to zero by Templar/Dirge stoneskin) [52.2%] ([9.7%]) Miss: 26 [17.9%] Tank Block: 8 [6.0%] Tank Parry/Riposte: 18 [13.4%] Shield Ally Block: 6 [4.5%]  (Probably 7-8 with +32% protection AAs) Shield Ally Parry: 6 [4.5%] Please notice how Shield Ally almost triggered as often as two stoneskin buffs, with Blessings and Luck of the Dirge active.  This is before GU36 brought my blocking% from 9.6 to 12.3% in persona.  Also before GU36, just for comparison, I blocked 36 times and parried 29 times in my last MMIS run.  A far cry from your 15 count... simply because I gear myself correctly.

---

I haven't fought Mayong since GU36, so I'll show numbers from Malkonis D'Morte before and after.  Or try to... for a WYSIWYG forum poster, you can't do anything special with it like tables. Before GU36                           After GU36 Hits:      97(27) [41.3%]([11.5%])    Hits:      154(32) [40.7%]([8.5%]) Misses:    44     [18.7%]             Misses:    75      [19.9%] Block:     33     [14.0%]             Block:     51      [13.5%] Parry:     18     [ 7.7%]             Parry:     34      [ 9.0%] AA Block:  10     [ 4.3%]             AA Block:  25      [ 6.6%] AA Parry:  6      [ 2.6%]             AA Parry:  7       [ 1.9%] It's relatively hard to compare one Shield Ally test to another.  Tank parry/block comes before Shield Ally, AA parry comes before AA block... so the +32% shield protection is somewhat hard to determine since it's at the end of the chain... but in this one limited test, yes... it went up. (~53%)

[Kizee]

EQAditu wrote:

Kizee wrote:

I boosted my avoidance to about 40% (close to 500 agil raid buffed and a nice 444 mit +7 defence buckler) and only blocked 15 times on a whole MMIS run.

No one seems to read my posts on the subject, so I keep seeing stuff like this.  I'll fight the urge to put it in caps or bold, so just read it instead. Do not look at your total avoidance number.  It does not mean what you think it does.  You cannot give your base avoidance to your Shield Ally target.  That means your defense and AGI are 100% meaningless.  Try to boost them, and you will be disappointed.  If you are serious about using Shield Ally, you must use one of the two 600+ protection round shields: Bulwark of the Brave, Disc of Protection.  Using a buckler with 1/3rd less protection is a bad idea.  Adornments: Lambent Balanced Strut, Scintillating Balanced Fastening(it's 2% uncontested parry now).  Before the changes, that had me at 9.6% blocking, 4% parry... both seemingly uncontested by epic class mobs. Against one Mayong battle:  (BEFORE GU36) Hits: 70 (13 hits brought to zero by Templar/Dirge stoneskin) [52.2%] ([9.7%]) Miss: 26 [17.9%] Tank Block: 8 [6.0%] Tank Parry/Riposte: 18 [13.4%] Shield Ally Block: 6 [4.5%]  (Probably 7-8 with +32% protection AAs) Shield Ally Parry: 6 [4.5%] Please notice how Shield Ally almost triggered as often as two stoneskin buffs, with Blessings and Luck of the Dirge active.  This is before GU36 brought my blocking% from 9.6 to 12.3% in persona.  Also before GU36, just for comparison, I blocked 36 times and parried 29 times in my last MMIS run.  A far cry from your 15 count... simply because I gear myself correctly. Once I actually fight anything interesting, I might post "after GU36" numbers.

1.) Since when could we use round shields? I thought we were restricted to bucklers.

2.) How can we use a parry adorn when we don't have a parry skill?

I knew about the +block adorn but I wasn't gonna plop down 10+ plat for a fabled adorn when the AA line is still crap.

[EQAditu]

Kizee wrote:

EQAditu wrote:

1.) Since when could we use round shields? I thought we were restricted to bucklers.

2.) How can we use a parry adorn when we don't have a parry skill?

I knew about the +block adorn but I wasn't gonna plop down 10+ plat for a fabled adorn when the AA line is still crap.

1: PvE can use like 2 T7 round shields.  PvP can use like 5. 2: It is not +parry, it is an uncontested parry% chance regardless of your skill.  Like Mystics(?) or Conjs can get a parry% AA without parry skill. You can call it crap all you want, but I find it hard to listen to your opinion when you don't even use the line correctly.

[Kizee]

EQAditu wrote:

Kizee wrote:

EQAditu wrote:

1.) Since when could we use round shields? I thought we were restricted to bucklers.

2.) How can we use a parry adorn when we don't have a parry skill?

I knew about the +block adorn but I wasn't gonna plop down 10+ plat for a fabled adorn when the AA line is still crap.

1: PvE can use like 2 T7 round shields.  PvP can use like 5. 2: It is not +parry, it is an uncontested parry% chance regardless of your skill.  Like Mystics(?) or Conjs can get a parry% AA without parry skill. You can call it crap all you want, but I find it hard to listen to your opinion when you don't even use the line correctly.

Yeah, I guess it makes sence that I need to use one of 2 t7 trash roundshields to get the most out of a AA line.   

There was no need to get snippy about anything. I was just asking a question since I have never used shields before nor played another class that used them.

[Occam]

I know the Bulwark of the Brave is from a SoS quest, but where is the Disc of Protection from? I've searched around and nobody seems to have any info on it.

I was thinking of trying Shield Ally out anyway, and it's looking like it might just give more benefit now then the heal crits. The operative word there is "might". I've always specced for the heal crits so I can't say at this point just how much I'll lose.

[EQAditu]

Yes, they are absolutely bad shields for a Templar in most cases.  It's hard to deny that... the PvP ones slightly nicer though T6 Fabled.  But when it comes down to it, losing some stats in one slot of your character is worth it to me to have a skill that rivals Unyielding Benediction.  You have to admit that it's exceptionally hard to find someone who will badmouth our stoneskin spell. I apologize if you found any of my comments "snippy" but you called my favorite AA line "crap" without you ever using it "correctly".

[Istaril]

I'm going to try it. I have some manas to spare, as of yesterday, and just picked up one of the shields for 50g off the broker. Before EH tomorrow, I'll spec Agi 4-4-8-8-2 Int 4-4-7-8. Depending on the use I get out of the AE immunity, I might buy DR again. I should have a very large sample size to look at from EH, so I'll know pretty quickly whether the 35p and a respec I just dropped made a difference .

[Kizee]

EQAditu wrote:

Yes, they are absolutely bad shields for a Templar in most cases.  It's hard to deny that... the PvP ones slightly nicer though T6 Fabled.  But when it comes down to it, losing some stats in one slot of your character is worth it to me to have a skill that rivals Unyielding Benediction.  You have to admit that it's exceptionally hard to find someone who will badmouth our stoneskin spell. I apologize if you found any of my comments "snippy" but you called my favorite AA line "crap" without you ever using it "correctly".

I didn't mean to come across as thinking the line sucked.... i just thought it should offer more than it seemed to. I want the line to work since I love to better the MT as much as I can.

I honestly didn't realize that we could use roundshields..... or are there only certain ones that we can use? It really sucks that I couldn't fine any fabled roundshields either.....

Since you use the line all the time is there a way to filder the blocks out in a seperate window so I don't have to look for them thru the miss spam? Either that or set up your act parser to see the blocks?

[Kizee]

Istaril wrote:

I'm going to try it. I have some manas to spare, as of yesterday, and just picked up one of the shields for 50g off the broker. Before EH tomorrow, I'll spec Agi 4-4-8-8-2 Int 4-4-7-8. Depending on the use I get out of the AE immunity, I might buy DR again. I should have a very large sample size to look at from EH, so I'll know pretty quickly whether the 35p and a respec I just dropped made a difference .

Should keep the crits and lose the casting speed.

I really don't miss the quicker casting since it only took 1/2 a sec off the slowest heals.

[EQAditu]

Kizee wrote:

Since you use the line all the time is there a way to filder the blocks out in a seperate window so I don't have to look for them thru the miss spam? Either that or set up your act parser to see the blocks?

I do not know of a good way to do it within EQ2.  Within ACT, there was actually a discussion on this a long time ago, so that's easy to answer. Within ACT's Triggers/Sounds tab, you can make a trigger with a results page and/or sound with a simple regex like: ".+but YOU (?:block|parry)".  The limitation of that is it will trigger for when a mob attacks you directly and you block/parry.  A second option, but also limited, is ".+?tries to [^ ]+ ([A-z]+)(?: with .+?)?, but (?(?=1|miss)[*Nothing*]|.+)." ...this will trigger for anyone blocking for someone else(IE not themselves).  The first option is probably fine, as you don't really care as much if another Fighter is blocking for another. Also, if you look at the lowest level tables of an encounter in ACT, you'll see things like "Miss", "parry", etc...  but you will also see things like "YOU block"...  meaning you caused the block and not the person being attacked.

[Kizee]

EQAditu wrote:

Kizee wrote:

Since you use the line all the time is there a way to filder the blocks out in a seperate window so I don't have to look for them thru the miss spam? Either that or set up your act parser to see the blocks?

I do not know of a good way to do it within EQ2.  Within ACT, there was actually a discussion on this a long time ago, so that's easy to answer. Within ACT's Triggers/Sounds tab, you can make a trigger with a results page and/or sound with a simple regex like: ".+but YOU (?:block|parry)".  The limitation of that is it will trigger for when a mob attacks you directly and you block/parry.  A second option, but also limited, is ".+?tries to [^ ]+ ([A-z]+)(?: with .+?)?, but (?(?=1|miss)[*Nothing*]|.+)." ...this will trigger for anyone blocking for someone else(IE not themselves).  The first option is probably fine, as you don't really care as much if another Fighter is blocking for another. Also, if you look at the lowest level tables of an encounter in ACT, you'll see things like "Miss", "parry", etc...  but you will also see things like "YOU block"...  meaning you caused the block and not the person being attacked.

Thanks for the helpful info... spent about 25p tonight and it was firing off alot more than it was before.

I was looking at some shields and what would be better.... the treasured shield like you have or buckler of the howler since it has +5 parry instead of the +3 from the treasued one? I am assuming the raw parry would be better than the extra protection you get from the round shield.

[Istaril]

Addition to the parry skill make no difference to your ability to shield yourself, OR your ally. We don't have the Parry skill as a class skill. Gaining "7" in it won't do anything at all. You won't start parrying. The Wrist adornments don't increase your parry skill by 2%, they increase your ability to parry by 2% (From 0 to 2, and 2-4, for the two of them). So in other words, parry is irrelevant. Only the protection of the Buckler/Round Shield in question is relevant to your ability to use shield ally.

[EQAditu]

Exactly right... +parry won't help us as parry% does.  Though honestly I was surprised to see +% to parry incoming attacks work on Shield Ally as strictly speaking, the attack was not incoming to us.  I still miss having a parry skill from before LU13. Also another note, it seems that % parry doesn't even mechanically work the same as real parry in any way.  I already mentioned that the percentage was uncontested by epic mobs, but it also seems impossible for 20% of parries to become a riposte as with normal parry. For a previous post... the Disc of Protection is said to have come from The Vaults of El'Arad.

[Mabes]

Interesting, I may play around with this some, though I don't think I could live with parting with int line because of divine arbitration and spell casting haste, so would end up dropping sta line to get it.

[myth327-2]

After reading the detailed information Aditu posted on the SA line I decided to give it a shot. I'm now specced 4488 STA/AGI. I have the 2 wrist parry adornments but haven't been able to get the shield adornment yet and I'm using the Bulwark of the Brave she recommended. I also set up a custom trigger sting to catch when it proc'd saving to a table and sounding a chime. After making these changes I ran a couple insta zone's and DT. I'm at work so I don't have the hard numbers in front of me, but I don't think I'm getting as high of a proc rate as I should. It only proc'd twice while killing Tarinax, but it proc'd 5 or 6 times on the stupid trap worms. The questions I have are in regards to encounter and positioning. From the limited testing I've done so far it seems to proc lots more in multi mob encounters or when the mob has the tank flanked. Has anyone else thats using this line noticed this?? Does my positioning have any effect on proc rate?? Even though I miss Divine Recovery already, I think this line will be better for me as I'm usually in MT group. I would like to make sure I'm getting the max benefit from it though. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[kal-l]

Your position has no effect on the proc rate of the ability unless something is broken with it.  The only thing that matters is if you are within 20 meters of your target (tank) and that's further than heal range so no problem there.  My best guess for why you saw the number of procs you did (based on my knowledge of the encounters) is as follows, and if I'm wrong then someone please feel free to correct me.

Tarinax has an extremely slow attack speed and once he's debuffed its even slower.  I'm guessing the fight wasn't very long so there are a lot fewer opportunities to proc your ability.  Also, Tarinax memwipes so if he swings at anyone but the tank you are shielding it won't have a chance to proc.  The worm traps, on the other hand, have a large number of mobs attacking the tank all at once (depending on the trap of course).  Also, they are all swinging at the tank (at least I would hope) and there is less time for their attack speed to be debuffed.  So, more swings = more chances for your shield proc to work.

I hope that helps =)

[EQAditu]

Exactly as kal-l said.  Don't look at how many times it worked, period.  I could say that it worked for me 3000 times... but in the context of what?  Look at how often it worked compared to how many times it could have worked.  Only then will you know how well it is working out. Also remember mob level can affect things...  Tarinax is an orange con, while trap mobs are yellow... it would only be natural that the ratio of it working be lower on an orange con.  If you go to extremes though, like grey mobs... the tank himself may avoid 95% of the attacks by himself, giving Shield Ally almost no chance to work.  That's the problem with parsing second tier avoidance.  You can't get accurate numbers for the simple reason that tier one will skew the data that has nothing to do with tier two, and yet you cannot separate them. As for positioning, I have never seen anything that could block it.  You don't even have to be able to see the person you are protecting, or the mob.

[Asherman]

I gave Shield Ally a try over the last week to see if it was a viable option for me and had mixed results. To test I used the Disc of Protection, shield block adorn and 2 w rist parry adorns. Tracking parrys and blocks done by me for the MT in ACT I got these results. Free Thinkers Hideout - 79 Inner Sanctum - 63 Clockwork Menace - 27 Throne room - 144 Death Toll - 82 Contested Mayong - 5 Avatar of Below - 9 Some not bad results over the course of an instance but not fantastic on single mob fights.  In the end I went back to a Sta + Int setup as I found I personally missed the reduced casting time and didn't want to drop the crit heal bonus. Although I didn't try it, one possible addition to this setup for a higher block rate could be using the Runed Combine Talisman in the ranged slot.

[Istaril]

Just out of curiosity, try multiplying the average damage taken per hit of the tank by the amount you blocked/parried (So if avatar was hitting for 2000 * 9 = 18000), and see how that compares to the ~3.5% of your healing the 15.6% crit accounts for. I think you'll find that in most cases the Shield Ally results in a net greater healing/prevention capacity than the crit heals. Now these numbers *are* inflated for various reasons; there's a chance (~32%) a stoneskin will absorb the hit - so let's reduce the value of the prevented by that much. Still pretty significant. We can further reduce it by assuming that it's reducing damage that would have been healed by *otherwise unused* wards, hots, and reactives - but we'd *still* be left with this AA being extremely useful, and for an MT healer, better than Heal crit in almost every case. Unless I'm completely missing something. Let's take a sample calculation from last night's Malkonis. Total Malkonis "Swings" = 314 Total amount I blocked/parried = 17 Total Percentage of Swings Blocked = 5.4% Total Damage Malkonis did to the tank = 252580 % of which was melee = ~52% Total Damage Malkonis did via melee = 131341 Damage 5.4% of 131341 = 6567 Damage Avoided by my block/parry. [A third of which would have been stoneskined, so let's say 4373] Total amount healed = 90330 3.5% of which can be attributed to my crit heal  AAs = 3161 Damage Healed from my Heal Crit AAs Agility line seems the clear victor in this sample. Mileage may vary, of course, but Agility also has the advantage of being up at all times regardless of your power pool, dispells, mobs curing themselves... the list goes on. I'd say the two AA lines are neck and neck - the more the tank is avoiding, and the more damage people other than the tank are taking, the better the Heal crits. The weaker the tank's ability to avoid, and the more damage the main tank is taking - the better the Agi line. On MO last night, for example, Heal crits come out *way* ahead of AGI, because the MOs ability to hit the main tank is dismal to start with, and most of the damage is actually going to players other than the MT. On Chel'drak, 17 parry/block (a much weaker tank) = 8.7% block, 71% of incomming damage was slashing, 16399 damage prevented (32% would have been stoneskined, so 10932) .I healed 263652 (new recruit warders with no power, christ), 3.5% of heal amount = aa crits = 9227 from heal crits.

[Kizee]

I love Agil AA line since I got the block and parry adorns.

I don't miss the faster casting speed since it only knocked off 1/2 a sec on the slowest heals for a ton of points invested.

I added up the blocks/parrys/stoneskins on my last run thru thrown room and had 411 blocks for MT. That is a crapload of damage prevented especially from the guardsmen.

The only thing I hate is using a POS treasured shield to get the most out of the AA line.

Also, It would be nice if they fixed the AOE immuntity recast to 1 minute like they said it was in patch notes.

[EQAditu]

Asherman wrote:

Some not bad results over the course of an instance but not fantastic on single mob fights.  In the end I went back to a Sta + Int setup as I found I personally missed the reduced casting time and didn't want to drop the crit heal bonus. Although I didn't try it, one possible addition to this setup for a higher block rate could be using the Runed Combine Talisman in the ranged slot.

Blah, you did exactly what I said not to do... only look at how many times it went off without considering a single other thing.  The post from Istaril is the sort of calculations you should really be making.  That's what tells you what the AA is actually doing. The Runed Combine Talisman, while usable in ranged, does not give any protection value while in that slot.

[myth327-2]

Since Aditu is the creator of the best parser in the game, and just happens to be a member of the best healing class in the game, what are the chances we might see an upgrade to ACT that tracks SA as well as our stoneskin in the future? I have to believe that she knows the math much better than I ever will, but I think a better way of tracking this would lead to more people seeing its value. I know that damage amounts for SA can't really be calculated accurately, but seeing a percentage value would really help. Right now I have a custom trigger to catch when the SA procs, but I don't know how to track when stoneskin procs to get a comparison. Alot of it could be I'm just not smart enough to use ACT to its fullest, and I don't know what it would take to add these features. But I thought with the direction this thread is going, it would be a good question to ask. =) Either way, thanks for ACT and all the help in understanding how to correctly use SA and how to calculate its effects somewhat.

[EQAditu]

Brawlers etc have every so often asked me for some sort of avoidance calculator or something... and I suppose this would fall under that.  I suppose I could build all of the calculations needed for this stuff into that report.  I admit doing it by hand is not only non-foolproof, but time consuming.

[Hoopak]

ok. so exactly which is better the t7 forearm adornment for parry +7 or the t6 block adornment?

[Cyirus]

Have a question slightly off topic.. well really off topic.

When is the most effective best time to use Divine Arbitration?  I assume its when your tank is very very low and everybody else is almost maxxed in health.  Wanted to make sure I was using it correctly.

 Also:

 Focused Intercession:  What's the overall opinion of this spell and usefullness?

Thanks

[Istaril]

The 1% (Shield) Block Adornment  (T6, Lambent Balanced Strut - Carpenter) The 2% (Wrist)  Parry Adornment (T7, Scintillating Balanced Fastening - Sage) Which is better? The wrist adornments are - coincidentally, they're also much more expensive Completely off topic ; Divine Arbitration can be used when the tank is low (but NOT when someone is dead or zoning - ever), or when the tank is stable and someone else is low. It is best safed for an emergency - like right before an AE where two group members would die without it, or something similar. It's BEST use, though, is as a cross-zone heal to save a group member who has wandered off and is training to get to you (or some similar scenario - like getting pk'd halfway across the world). Focussed Intercession has the following advantages - the procs are bigger than other reactives, it's dirt-cheap power wise, and it has a fast casting time. When to use? When the other reactives are waiting on recast (or don't have time to be cast) on a target being hit quickly. Or when you're desperately pressed for power, but can't afford to use single target heals. It's also *extremely* useful in pvp, where hits come much faster than from mobs, and can act as a CHeal if timed right. Finally, it can be used as a pre-heal - stacking 3 reactives for massive early spikes (extremely rare cases - like a raid mob with no warders present and enough debuffs that will go up to smoothen damage after initial spikes). Finally, if you need to take an emergency AFK break, focussed intercession on a group tank (not in raids) is a better choice than a target or group reactive.