Goodbye SoE

[skylancer]

<DIV>I am sadly getting more and more frustrated with SoE and Rangers... I really dont think they have a place or a definition for this class. <P>I will post some parses soon- but I am still getting out dps'ed by Bruisers (while they are tanking or not), Wizzies, conj., and most distressing, about half the time FURY"S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</P> <P>Broken record here- for the billionth time- give me group buffs, give me a taunt, give me some heals- or give me DPS.</P> <P>I am DONE with SoE come vanguard unless they get us back to pre- LU20 DPS. End of story- How did we unbalance the game during that brief shinning moment? All that happened was that for the first time, ever, we were a class that got invited to raids and groups... we were downright handy to have around. Now we are back to the "filler" role. Huh? ranger? well if we cant find someone else, sure he can fill the spot....</P> <P> </P></DIV>

[lolercopter]

Part PvP, part utility.  The massive procs in PvP would be insanely unbalanced (considering about half of the Nagafen PvP server plays a ranger and they're already very powerful) and the fact that SoE doesn't think rangers should have high DPS and any kind of utility.I don't necessarily blame them.<div></div>

[Taubin]

/put on flame suitCan I have your stuff?<div></div>

[Infinity0]

<div></div><p>I miss the days of logging on and having complete strangers ask me to join their group, this was without having the LFG option selected.  I fully believe a major factor why rangers were gutted was to appease pvp issues.  It is a VERY difficult task to make both sides of the fence happy, I thought EQ2 was a pve game that's at least what SOE said at release.  Funny story I left another game because of the pvp/pve balance issues.  The grass is always...</p><div></div>

[Zh]

aren't pvp functions seperate from pve functions anyway?<div></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Zhek wrote:aren't pvp functions seperate from pve functions anyway?<div></div><hr></blockquote>sortof.. the game mechanics for both are shared.. so if sony in their infinite "OMG we have no idea how this works" decides something is "broken" like procs.. and applies a poorly thought out idiotic "fix" then its "fixed" for both worlds.I agree with the OP, Rangers are prety much useless, they bring nothing to the table that any other class cant do.</div>

[A]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> skylancer wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am sadly getting more and more frustrated with SoE and Rangers... I really dont think they have a place or a definition for this class. <P>I will post some parses soon- but I am still getting out dps'ed by Bruisers (while they are tanking or not), Wizzies, conj., and most distressing, about half the time FURY"S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</P> <P>Broken record here- for the billionth time- give me group buffs, give me a taunt, give me some heals- or give me DPS.</P> <P>I am DONE with SoE come vanguard<STRONG> unless they get us back to pre- LU20 DPS</STRONG>. End of story- How did we unbalance the game during that brief shinning moment? All that happened was that for the first time, ever, we were a class that got invited to raids and groups... we were downright handy to have around. Now we are back to the "filler" role. Huh? ranger? well if we cant find someone else, sure he can fill the spot....</P> <P> </P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>We were down right handy to have around ?</P> <P>pre LU-20 when grouping for xp I was always pulling an extra heroic mob for me to kill why the rest of the group was busy killing whatever the tank pulled. That's how broken and over-powered we were.</P> <P>SOE is not going to bring us back to that state, so good-bye...</P> <P>I didn't even think there were still players in denial that we needed a tune down, I guess I was wrong... <P>Besides why the hell did you need a group for PRE-LU 20 ? <P>Aside from raiding , there wasn't much content in game for which we needed a group to help us... </P><p>Message Edited by Ail on <span class=date_text>04-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:01 PM</span>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>After EQ Live;</P> <P>They told us, they promised us, they swore, that they would NEVER, EVER,  nerf a class for PvP!</P> <P>Lies.</P> <P>Is it mere coincidence that the 'Great Ranger Nerf' went live right at the same time as PvP?  I think not.</P><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class=date_text>04-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:20 AM</span>

[Mirdo]

<DIV>Probably not a conicidence as they would have been working hard on mechanics anyway - it was just a another mechanic to change. Maybe PvP highlighted to them it needed to change. I still don't believe it was 'bugged' per se - not given the length of time longbows and proc's worked like that. But I can understand that maybe it's effects sailed under the Dev team radar for a while until PvP smacked it in their faces.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be honest, if anyone posting still doesn't understand why our DPS had to change then this, or probably any other MMO, is not for you. if you're left hanging on for our DPS to go back to pre #20 numbers you might as well re-roll or quit too because there is no way that will happen. We are now in a position the Dev's seem relatively happy with. I'm hoping for a few minor tweaks but we are what we are for now it seems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mirdo.</DIV>

[Balerius]

<P>I agree.  The mechanics behind our pre-LU20 dps were broken and had to be fixed.  Not because of our pre-LU20 dps...but where that broken mechanic would take us with another 10 levels and AAs after KoS came out.</P> <P>The problem is that the "fix" took rangers back to levels of dps that existed before LU13.  The fix has left us barely at tier2 dps.  Just within scout ranks we are usually greatly out-dps'd by assassins and usually out-dps'd by brigands and swashbucklers.  Not to mention being routinely out-dps'd by summoners, necros, monks, and bruisers.</P> <P>Part of the problem is that I don't think SoE even realizes how some classes' AAs have greatly upped their dps relative to what those classes' CAs would lead you to believe their dps should be.  And part of the problem is that I don't think that SoE tests classes' dps with testers who can actually maximize their dps and with groups that are tailored to maximize dps (such as exist in raids).  The end result is that I sadly agree with you that SoE is relatively happy with where ranger dps is.  As they say, ignorance is bliss.</P>

[Mirdo]

<DIV>Well they do rely heavily on people on test and I *guess* models for their initial data. It sounds petty but I do seriously doubt any of the development team play a Ranger in the high end game (or at all) or the proc mechanic effects would have been dealt with or maybe at least commented on much earlier than at the release of PvP (despite Moorgard lampooning the comments about the team not actually playing certain classes at the FF - or maybe in one of his blog posts - I forget which).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everybody's experiences will be different though. I'm a high playtime, casual raider. I try and optimise for damage so am a min/maxer (without the acces to top maxing gear). I would hope I'm doing more damage than somebody who hasn't upgraded to A3 minimum CA's and a high str. I've picked AA's I believe maximise my damage output and am wearing proc gear and running decent poisons. My play experience solo, grouped and in raids will be very different from somebody better or worse equipped. Part of the problem in analysing just how good/bad our position is, is making valid comparisons witth similarly equipped classes. And then you can add skill into the mix - that starts to make it all very situational.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I do know is that, in my guild, I'm beating out the wizzy, close to (but behind) the assassin -he has more masters so that's to be expected, slaughtering a Brigand alt 6 levels below me (yaay - grats me on being uber<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) and out-damaging necro/pet combos that I know are running at A3. That's burst and sustained - although I suspect a Brig might give me a run for my money in burst DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't comment on similarly equipped, equal level Brigands, Swashies, Warlocks or the light tanks. These seem to be the problem classes other Rangers are mentioning so I guess I'll have to try and group with a few to see what I think. The next problem will be finding out what level their CA's / spells are at <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mirdo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Infinity0]

<div></div><p>I pose a question for the people that have played SOE's products for a long time.  In the event SOE decides Rangers need some solo/dps/utility tweaking, roughly how long would such modifications take to reach the live servers?  Just looking for a realistic time frame.  Currently all I have to go on is this LU1 to LU13 Rangers required balancing, LU13 to LU19 Rangers were overpowered due to a bug. Any information would be greatly appreciated.</p><div></div>

[Faelen]

<div></div>I don't understand what you guys are so unhappy about.  Our DPS before the 'nerf' was WAY too high.  Did I enjoy it?  Of course I did, it was crazy, but way too unbalanced.  And like someone mentioned before, add 10 more levels and AA's, then it would just be ridiculous.If you whine in game like you whine on the forums, maybe thats why no one will invite you to a group!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I have no problems getting a group, and I've been top dps in every group / raid I've been in for months unless I'm grouped with a necro and their stupid scout pet!  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I will agree that a necro should not outdps a pure dps class because they have so much utility as well.  But its not bad enough that I would whine about it.Maybe you need to get some better gear or upgrade your spells to see your dps improve.  If thats not the problem, maybe look at your play style.Are you using the best poison you can possibly use?  Are you using your Focus Aim buff every time it becomes available and following it up with Precise Shot, Triple Arrow and Debilitating Arrow?  If you have your Agility line maxed you can also squeeze off a confusing shot and amazing shot before the 10 secs is up.  The extra crits make a huge difference.  Also max your ranged crit AA with 8 points. <div></div>

[Teksun]

<blockquote><hr>Faelen wrote:<div></div>Are you using the best poison you can possibly use?  Are you using your Focus Aim buff every time it becomes available and following it up with Precise Shot, Triple Arrow and Debilitating Arrow?  If you have your Agility line maxed you can also squeeze off a confusing shot and amazing shot before the 10 secs is up.  The extra crits make a huge difference.  Also max your ranged crit AA with 8 points. <div></div><hr></blockquote>So basically you are saying if we spend a plat a night and max out our aa's we are better than those that haven't??? Yeah, we're fine.<div></div>

[Mirdo]

I don't think it's possible to compare us to any class unless you know their exact AA makeup and spell / CA grades. Without that knowledge any comparison is a waste of time and effort. Mirdo. <div></div>

[Faelen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Teksun wrote:<blockquote><hr>Faelen wrote:<div></div>Are you using the best poison you can possibly use?  Are you using your Focus Aim buff every time it becomes available and following it up with Precise Shot, Triple Arrow and Debilitating Arrow?  If you have your Agility line maxed you can also squeeze off a confusing shot and amazing shot before the 10 secs is up.  The extra crits make a huge difference.  Also max your ranged crit AA with 8 points. <div></div><hr></blockquote>So basically you are saying if we spend a plat a night and max out our aa's we are better than those that haven't??? Yeah, we're fine.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah thats exactly what I'm saying, a plat a night, and yes I only group with people that have no AA's so I can be on top dps.So I take it from your response that you arent using poison... there is your problem.</div>

[Star]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mary the Prophetess wrote:<BR> <P>After EQ Live;</P> <P>They told us, they promised us, they swore, that they would NEVER, EVER,  nerf a class for PvP!</P> <P>Lies.</P> <P>Is it mere coincidence that the 'Great Ranger Nerf' went live right at the same time as PvP?  I think not.</P> <P>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <SPAN class=date_text>04-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:20 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are completely and totally uninformed. PvP and PvE abilities are completely seperate. They try to keep the basic ideas of the abilities the same so that someone who's familiar with a class in PvE cna jump on PvP and know how to play their class to a degree, but they can, say, tweat the DMG on snipers shot down on PvP without touching it at all on PvE. You're a conspiracy theorist. The reason is they were tracking rangers that were doing way more DMG than they wanted to due to the scaling of procs and DMG with the tiers. You can get angry at SOE for a lot of things. I certainly do, but they did not nerf us here on PvE so balance for PvP.</P>

[Serventof Wrath]

<P>Wow,</P> <P>I just had to check that I was in the ranger forum for a sec with all the whining.  I thought I was over in Wizzy land but no unfortunately I believe we've reached a new low.</P> <P>Before the "great nerf" I could solo white con ^^^ in DoF and not go below 70% health, guess what we shouldn't have been able to that.  I actually found it harder to group before the nerf because there was no tank less then 5 lvls above me that could hold agro.  Did SOE go to far? Yup sure did.  Have they started making fixes for us?  Yes they have.  Are they still looking at more fixes for us?  I've unoffically heard they were but we'll see.</P> <P>DPS for us now?  I have no problems.  I raided in the lab this past weekend at the time I was lvl 62 (dinged 65 last night <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).  I was the lowest dps on the raid.  All the casters were 68 - 70.  All the other scouts were 65 - 70.  I was the only ranger (our other  guild ranger was MIA).  Full 24 person raid I consistently cracked the top 7 on most fights.  Top 5 once and with had highest hit once with sniper.  Again I was lowest lvl dps on the raid!!!!!  I am not fully clad in Fabled gear and have a mix of masters, adept III, and adept I.  I do have a good guild that understands how to organize groups to maximize buffs and understands the importance of debuffing a mob.  </P> <P>We will not be getting back to pre-nerf DPS if you can't live with that then maybe should look at why you still spend money on this game.  If you can live with it then I really would love to see our forums go back to what they used to be you know one of the only forums that had actual stats, guides, suggestions, jokes and just in general a better overall feel to them.</P> <P>/rant off</P> <P> </P>

[Star]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Faelen wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Faelen wrote:<BR> Are you using the best poison you can possibly use?  Are you using your Focus Aim buff every time it becomes available and following it up with Precise Shot, Triple Arrow and Debilitating Arrow?  If you have your Agility line maxed you can also squeeze off a confusing shot and amazing shot before the 10 secs is up.  The extra crits make a huge difference.  Also max your ranged crit AA with 8 points. <BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So basically you are saying if we spend a plat a night and max out our aa's we are better than those that haven't??? Yeah, we're fine.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah thats exactly what I'm saying, a plat a night, and yes I only group with people that have no AA's so I can be on top dps.<BR><BR>So I take it from your response that you arent using poison... there is your problem.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You know what? Who cares about poison... I can go with out any DMG poison at all, on a raid, and push upwards of 800 to 900 DPS. Apparently those numbers are 'good enough'. Seriously, as a community we need to get over this DPS thing. If the Devs think we're working fine it's not because rangers are coming here and saying "We're fine SOE. We love out DPS." because they're not. It's probably because they're watching numbers coming off the live servers and saying that they see us where we should be. Sigh... nevermind...</P>

[Yrield]

<div><blockquote><hr>jwmaynar wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Mary the Prophetess wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <p>After EQ Live;</p> <p>They told us, they promised us, they swore, that they would NEVER, EVER,  nerf a class for PvP!</p> <p>Lies.</p> <p>Is it mere coincidence that the 'Great Ranger Nerf' went live right at the same time as PvP?  I think not.</p> <p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class="date_text">04-13-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:20 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>You are completely and totally uninformed. PvP and PvE abilities are completely seperate. They try to keep the basic ideas of the abilities the same so that someone who's familiar with a class in PvE cna jump on PvP and know how to play their class to a degree, but they can, say, tweat the DMG on snipers shot down on PvP without touching it at all on PvE. You're a conspiracy theorist. The reason is they were tracking rangers that were doing way more DMG than they wanted to due to the scaling of procs and DMG with the tiers. You can get angry at SOE for a lot of things. I certainly do, but they did not nerf us here on PvE so balance for PvP.</p><hr></blockquote>PvP and PvE abilities are seperated, PvP and PvE share the same game/combat mechanic. Rangers abilites were left unchanged after LU20, SOE played around with the combat mechanic 4 days before KoS release and we were collateral damage of the changes.</div>

[Star]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yrieldom wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>PvP and PvE abilities are seperated, PvP and PvE share the same game/combat mechanic. Rangers abilites were left unchanged after LU20, SOE played around with the combat mechanic 4 days before KoS release and we were collateral damage of the changes.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The combat mechanic was changed due to the fact that the DMG increase due to the broken system was increasing way to fast. While I doubt SOEs 4K DPS claim, I have no doubt that if left in place Tier 8 and Tier 9 would have just continued the trend until our DPS on <STRONG><EM><U>PvE</U></EM></STRONG> was way out of range of any other class. But whatever, they did it because ot PvP and the government has implanted chips in our brains to track out every movement. You are obviously correct. I appologize for disagreeing with you.

[Deml]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> I pose a question for the people that have played SOE's products for a long time.  In the event SOE decides Rangers need some solo/dps/utility tweaking, roughly how long would such modifications take to reach the live servers?  Just looking for a realistic time frame.  Currently all I have to go on is this LU1 to LU13 Rangers required balancing, LU13 to LU19 Rangers were overpowered due to a bug. Any information would be greatly appreciated.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If it runs like things did in EQ1, no "major" fix will come till the next expansion at the very earliest.  WIth EQ1, every expansion "nerfed" one class and put another as the flavor of the month.  It happened every expansion.  With Rangers in EQ1, they were useless for a year or more with SOE saying they were working as intended, then SOE said "oops, we messed up with Rangers" and fixed them to be a decent class.  This was all later in the game though, after the 4th expansion.  I figure we are a solid 6 months to a year from having them tweak us in any significant way.

[Sirlutt]

I hear alot of people saying they need to do X Y and Z to maximise their DPS just to keep up with other DPS classes, alot of others (mostly 70 Rangers with alot of AA points in Fabled armor who raid 4+ nights a week) saying they can do fantastic DPS and others are whining.We should not need AA's, Legendary Poisons and every single skill available to us to keep up with other classes.  If we can only just keep up with these things, including our short term buffs thenperhaps those things should be made semi permanent.  Caster and other DPS classes dont need to jump through the hoops angers do just to be viable.my real thought is whats the point ?  Why on earth, other than roleplaying, would you play a Ranger if you wanted to be DPS?  You could play any of the other DPS classes, get MORE DPs that is EASIER to maximise, costs ALOT less coin and get a bunch of utility thrown in. why go through the pain of buying arrows, poinsons, using short term buffs, waiting on skills to refresh to only just keep up with other DPS classes?it reminds me of a friend who played a Pally, he wanted to be the raid MT, he worked REALLY REALLY hard to keep up with Guardians in mitigation, in agro holding, with his equipment.. and he was successful, barely.  A Guardian with the same amount of work ate his lunch though.  He realise that it was FAR FAR easir to be the tank he wanted to be by being a Guardian.  the same amount of dedication and work got him far greater results.  He liked the roleplay idea of the Pally, but wanted the tanking abilities of the guardian.If your looking to play DPS, dont play a Ranger.  The same amount of coin, time and effort put into just about any other DPs class will net you far greater results.  I just dont see the point in Rangers anymore other than the roleplay perspective.  If I had to choose between any other DPS class and a Ranger to fill a last group DPS spot I am going with the non ranger.  why ?.. because in pickup groups the chances of getting someone who barely knows their class is good.  Someone who is a mediocre Wizard will blow away the DPS of someone who is a mediocre Ranger.  It'd take a good Ranger to keep up and chance dictates that more than likely its only an average player on the other side of the Ranger, not someone with plat to burn on arrows, poisons, armor, weapons and with alot of AA points who knows just how to wring the DPS out of that Ranger.  The Wizzie/Warlock/Assassin/Necor/Conjuror will 8 times out of 10 do more damage.i love Rangers, enjoyed playing my Ranger for the 18 months I had him, but Sony didnt nerf the DPS, they nerf'd the soul of the Ranger .. its a lifeless boring class without its awe inspiring DPS.. that was our bag, jaw dropping DPS.  What do we have without that?... not alot.I pray for a quest to respec my Ranger to an assassin or Brigand so i can be useful again.<div></div>

[Faelen]

<P>Ok, put yourself in the shoes of the game developers and someone is complaining about their class.  What do you do?  Do you give in  to everything that every person whines about?  So what if they increase ranger dps again.  Then someone else will be complaining, so what do you do?  You fix them also?  Oh wait, now someone else is complaniing, now what?  Ok, fix them.  Uh oh, 3 more classes are complaining now, what do you do?</P> <P>The point is that you cant make everyone happy.  If DPS is ok, someone will complain about our hood and the fact that we dont have a cloak attached to it.  I'm pleading with all of you to stop whining about our dps, we are OK!!  If you dont like playing a ranger, pick another class, its that simple.  If the game doesnt make you happy, go play something else, please.  But stop whining about game balance issues when you dont have all the facts and you're only thinking selfishly.  You obviously don't have the best intentions for the game as a whole, you just want to see YOUR class made better.</P> <P>You tell me that your DPS sucks and you can post parses.  I can tell you my DPS is great and I can post parses also.  So who is right and who is wrong?  Sure there seem to be a lot of people whining on the forums about DPS, but compare that to the total number of active rangers in the game, and you people complaining about DPS are in the vast minority.</P>

[Serventof Wrath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Faelen wrote:<BR> <P>Ok, put yourself in the shoes of the game developers and someone is complaining about their class.  What do you do?  Do you give in  to everything that every person whines about?  So what if they increase ranger dps again.  Then someone else will be complaining, so what do you do?  You fix them also?  Oh wait, now someone else is complaniing, now what?  Ok, fix them.  Uh oh, 3 more classes are complaining now, what do you do?</P> <P><STRONG>The point is that you cant make everyone happy.  If DPS is ok, someone will complain about our hood and the fact that we dont have a cloak attached to it.  I'm pleading with all of you to stop whining about our dps, we are OK!!  If you dont like playing a ranger, pick another class, its that simple.  If the game doesnt make you happy, go play something else, please.  But stop whining about game balance issues when you dont have all the facts and you're only thinking selfishly.  You obviously don't have the best intentions for the game as a whole, you just want to see YOUR class made better.</STRONG></P> <P>You tell me that your DPS sucks and you can post parses.  I can tell you my DPS is great and I can post parses also.  So who is right and who is wrong?  Sure there seem to be a lot of people whining on the forums about DPS, but compare that to the total number of active rangers in the game, and you people complaining about DPS are in the vast minority.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thank you</P> <P>QFE</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Faelen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR>I hear alot of people saying they need to do X Y and Z to maximise their DPS just to keep up with other DPS classes, alot of others (mostly 70 Rangers with alot of AA points in Fabled armor who raid 4+ nights a week) saying they can do fantastic DPS and others are whining.<BR><BR>We should not need AA's, Legendary Poisons and every single skill available to us to keep up with other classes.  If we can only just keep up with these things, including our short term buffs thenperhaps those things should be made semi permanent.  Caster and other DPS classes dont need to jump through the hoops angers do just to be viable.<BR><BR>my real thought is whats the point ?  Why on earth, other than roleplaying, would you play a Ranger if you wanted to be DPS?  You could play any of the other DPS classes, get MORE DPs that is EASIER to maximise, costs ALOT less coin and get a bunch of utility thrown in. why go through the pain of buying arrows, poinsons, using short term buffs, waiting on skills to refresh to only just keep up with other DPS classes?<BR><BR>it reminds me of a friend who played a Pally, he wanted to be the raid MT, he worked REALLY REALLY hard to keep up with Guardians in mitigation, in agro holding, with his equipment.. and he was successful, barely.  A Guardian with the same amount of work ate his lunch though.  He realise that it was FAR FAR easir to be the tank he wanted to be by being a Guardian.  the same amount of dedication and work got him far greater results.  He liked the roleplay idea of the Pally, but wanted the tanking abilities of the guardian.<BR><BR>If your looking to play DPS, dont play a Ranger.  The same amount of coin, time and effort put into just about any other DPs class will net you far greater results.  I just dont see the point in Rangers anymore other than the roleplay perspective.  If I had to choose between any other DPS class and a Ranger to fill a last group DPS spot I am going with the non ranger.  why ?.. because in pickup groups the chances of getting someone who barely knows their class is good.  Someone who is a mediocre Wizard will blow away the DPS of someone who is a mediocre Ranger.  It'd take a good Ranger to keep up and chance dictates that more than likely its only an average player on the other side of the Ranger, not someone with plat to burn on arrows, poisons, armor, weapons and with alot of AA points who knows just how to wring the DPS out of that Ranger.  The Wizzie/Warlock/Assassin/Necor/Conjuror will 8 times out of 10 do more damage.<BR><BR>i love Rangers, enjoyed playing my Ranger for the 18 months I had him, but Sony didnt nerf the DPS, they nerf'd the soul of the Ranger .. its a lifeless boring class without its awe inspiring DPS.. that was our bag, jaw dropping DPS.  What do we have without that?... not alot.<BR><BR>I pray for a quest to respec my Ranger to an assassin or Brigand so i can be useful again.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wow, whats next, healers complaining that it takes too much work to heal?  Give me a break, DPS has it easy.  We're the only archtype that can walk away from the computer and most people wont notice.  Is it too much to ask that good dps requires a little work?  I'm sorry, but if you just want to turn on auto attack and put your feet up, you're not going to have good dps, thats life.

[Yrield]

<div><blockquote><hr>jwmaynar wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Yrieldom wrote: <div>PvP and PvE abilities are seperated, PvP and PvE share the same game/combat mechanic. Rangers abilites were left unchanged after LU20, SOE played around with the combat mechanic 4 days before KoS release and we were collateral damage of the changes.</div> <hr> </blockquote>The combat mechanic was changed due to the fact that the DMG increase due to the broken system was increasing way to fast. While I doubt SOEs 4K DPS claim, I have no doubt that if left in place Tier 8 and Tier 9 would have just continued the trend until our DPS on <strong><em><u>PvE</u></em></strong> was way out of range of any other class. But whatever, they did it because ot PvP and the government has implanted chips in our brains to track out every movement. You are obviously correct. I appologize for disagreeing with you.<hr></blockquote>Well I can't care less about the reasons of the change... PvP, PvE...whateverDoing major change 4 days before release is never a good idea.Take Hawk Dive for exemple, At the beginning of KoS, Hawk Dive was a good idea, Ranger dps was high no need to add more. Now post-KoS, Hawk Dive is a pretty dumb idea. Wizard get Fusion, Warlock get a 12 targets PBAE, Assassin get a recast time reducer but Ranger get the stupid bird. 4 tier1 classes, 3 out of 4 get a DPS spell, 1 get an utility... See what i mean ?Morale: set-in-stone deadline + sweeping change = havoc</div>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>"If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck,...."</P> <P>At any rate, you can make whatever case you care to make as to whether LU-20 was totally unrelated to PvP or not.  (and no, I do not stay up at night listening to 'Coast to Coast', thank-you very much for your sarcasim)</P> <P>One thing that many of the posters here do not seem to have an appreciation of,  is the impact that this has had to the solo Ranger, and the casual gamer.</P> <P>When released this game was touted as appealing to the casual player.  The working parent, who only has 2-3 nights a week to play and can only stay in-game for an hour or two per session.</P> <P>I fall into that category.  I would like to think that after playing MMORPGs for 9 years, and playing EQ2 since launch, that I know how to play my class competently (if not perfectly).</P> <P>Post LU-20:</P> <P>Can I still solo?  Yes.  </P> <P>Do I still advance?  Yes.  </P> <P>Do I die more frequently?  Perhaps slightly, but not significantly more often.</P> <P>So, what's the problem?</P> <P>The problem is that becuase of these changes, the <EM>types</EM> of things I can solo has changed; <STRONG>significantly</STRONG><EM>.</EM>  And the experience that I can gain in a 1-2 hour session, a couple of nights per week, has slowed my advancement to the point of being all but non-existent.</P> <P>Ok, you say, just do Quests.</P> <P>No can do.  All the HQs require groups, and are long and involved.  Either that, or wait until you are 22 levels above the Quest to solo it.</P> <P>How about exploring, getting those experience points from that?  Well, since there are so many MOBS that see through stealth now, that that avenue is largely shut down as well.</P> <P>Why don't you max out your AAs?  </P> <P>Great idea.  I'll pay SOE for an expansion I can't use yet, (may never be able to use), so that I can try to get back *some* of the ability to advance that they took away from me in the first instance.</P> <P>You Raiding Rangers who look down from your lofty positions at level 70, and pass judegement, should walk a mile in my shoes first.  My character may only be level 49, but I can assure you that the person at the keyboard is not.</P>

[A]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Faelen wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR>I hear alot of people saying they need to do X Y and Z to maximise their DPS just to keep up with other DPS classes, alot of others (mostly 70 Rangers with alot of AA points in Fabled armor who raid 4+ nights a week) <STRONG>saying they can do fantastic DPS and others are whining.<BR></STRONG><BR>We should not need AA's, Legendary Poisons and every single skill available to us to keep up with other classes.  If we can only just keep up with these things, including our short term buffs thenperhaps those things should be made semi permanent.  Caster and other DPS classes dont need to jump through the hoops angers do just to be viable.<BR><BR>my real thought is whats the point ?  Why on earth, other than roleplaying, would you play a Ranger if you wanted to be DPS?  You could play any of the other DPS classes, get MORE DPs that is EASIER to maximise, costs ALOT less coin and get a bunch of utility thrown in. why go through the pain of buying arrows, poinsons, using short term buffs, waiting on skills to refresh to only just keep up with other DPS classes?<BR><BR>it reminds me of a friend who played a Pally, he wanted to be the raid MT, he worked REALLY REALLY hard to keep up with Guardians in mitigation, in agro holding, with his equipment.. and he was successful, barely.  A Guardian with the same amount of work ate his lunch though.  He realise that it was FAR FAR easir to be the tank he wanted to be by being a Guardian.  the same amount of dedication and work got him far greater results.  He liked the roleplay idea of the Pally, but wanted the tanking abilities of the guardian.<BR><BR>If your looking to play DPS, dont play a Ranger.  The same amount of coin, time and effort put into just about any other DPs class will net you far greater results.  I just dont see the point in Rangers anymore other than the roleplay perspective.  If I had to choose between any other DPS class and a Ranger to fill a last group DPS spot I am going with the non ranger.  why ?.. because in pickup groups the chances of getting someone who barely knows their class is good.  Someone who is a mediocre Wizard will blow away the DPS of someone who is a mediocre Ranger.  It'd take a good Ranger to keep up and chance dictates that more than likely its only an average player on the other side of the Ranger, not someone with plat to burn on arrows, poisons, armor, weapons and with alot of AA points who knows just how to wring the DPS out of that Ranger.  The Wizzie/Warlock/Assassin/Necor/Conjuror will 8 times out of 10 do more damage.<BR><BR>i love Rangers, enjoyed playing my Ranger for the 18 months I had him, but Sony didnt nerf the DPS, they nerf'd the soul of the Ranger .. its a lifeless boring class without its awe inspiring DPS.. that was our bag, jaw dropping DPS.  What do we have without that?... not alot.<BR><BR>I pray for a quest to respec my Ranger to an assassin or Brigand so i can be useful again.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wow, whats next, healers complaining that it takes too much work to heal?  Give me a break, DPS has it easy.  We're the only archtype that can walk away from the computer and most people wont notice.  Is it too much to ask that good dps requires a little work?  I'm sorry, but if you just want to turn on auto attack and put your feet up, you're not going to have good dps, thats life.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, because I am sure of quite a few things :</P> <P>- AA were a ranger specific enhancement and others classes didn't get them, hence we should not get any or use any when comparing our damage to other classes..<BR>- Same with skills, rangers have indeed more skills than others and should not use those when comparing their damage with others...</P> <P>- It's a well known fact that in raiding guilds, rangers bust their [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] maximising their damage while all the others classes are played by lazy bums that are barely at the keyboard during most of the raids.........</P> <P>/sarcasm off.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Serventof Wrath]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mary the Prophetess wrote:<BR> <P>"If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck,...."</P> <P>At any rate, you can make whatever case you care to make as to whether LU-20 was totally unrelated to PvP or not.  (and no, I do not stay up at night listening to 'Coast to Coast', thank-you very much for your sarcasim)</P> <P>One thing that many of the posters here do not seem to have an appreciation of,  is the impact that this has had to the solo Ranger, and the casual gamer.</P> <P>When released this game was touted as appealing to the casual player.  The working parent, who only has 2-3 nights a week to play and can only stay in-game for an hour or two per session.</P> <P>I fall into that category.  I would like to think that after playing MMORPGs for 9 years, and playing EQ2 since launch, that I know how to play my class competently (if not perfectly).</P> <P>Post LU-20:</P> <P>Can I still solo?  Yes.  </P> <P>Do I still advance?  Yes.  </P> <P>Do I die more frequently?  Perhaps slightly, but not significantly more often.</P> <P>So, what's the problem?</P> <P>The problem is that becuase of these changes, the <EM>types</EM> of things I can solo has changed; <STRONG>significantly</STRONG><EM>.</EM>  And the experience that I can gain in a 1-2 hour session, a couple of nights per week, has slowed my advancement to the point of being all but non-existent.</P> <P>Ok, you say, just do Quests.</P> <P>No can do.  All the HQs require groups, and are long and involved.  Either that, or wait until you are 22 levels above the Quest to solo it.</P> <P>How about exploring, getting those experience points from that?  Well, since there are so many MOBS that see through stealth now, that that avenue is largely shut down as well.</P> <P>Why don't you max out your AAs?  </P> <P>Great idea.  I'll pay SOE for an expansion I can't use yet, (may never be able to use), so that I can try to get back *some* of the ability to advance that they took away from me in the first instance.</P> <P>You Raiding Rangers who look down from your lofty positions at level 70, and pass judegement, should walk a mile in my shoes first.  My character may only be level 49, but I can assure you that the person at the keyboard is not.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/disclaimer on</P> <P>This is not a flame</P> <P>/disclaimer off</P> <P> </P> <P>My main is a lvl 65 ranger.  I raid.  I am in a guild with set in stone 2 days a week raid times.  I am a casual gamer.  I work 6 days a week 10 hours a day.  I have a wife and son.  I coach youth baseball and youth football.  </P> <P>I made lvl 50 mainly solo for those reasons i listed above.  After lvl 50 i found that if I wanted to do any type of quest or lvl advancement  I had to group.  The fun thing is I've found that alot of the same people logging in when I do (after work) seem to be on the same schedule I am (can only play for an hour or so max) cause of RL responsibilities.  I do juggle some things on raid nights but my guild is very international so all of us our on different schedules and there is always people on <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Any way...</P> <P>I am not in full fabled.  I only have the following AA points bounty = 1 Agi line = 4 - 4 - 4 - 5 and thats it. </P> <P>Things I do that really seem to work.  I have friends and guildies that are jewlers/alch/weaponsmiths so I can get stuff I need at discounted prices.  I read the forums for Strategies/Gear Choices/Poisons/CA Combos.  I read ogaming for quest spoilers so I know what steps I can solo and what steps I'm gonna need to make time to accomplish.  I find a pick up group to get an hour or so of xp grinding or quest updates and I call it a night.  And I raid.  I do the best I can, have a ton of fun, and have never had people complain about me.  If the raid is going long and I need to log then I log.  If I have time to stay I stay.  </P> <P>The game is still very "casual gamer" friendly.  If it wasn't I wouldn't be able to play at all.</P> <P>/this is from someone who is closing in on becoming one of those lvl 70 raiding rangers and who doesn't have a complex with his dps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Jay]

Giving up on these forums till they fix the post-eating bug. See you in a month or four.

[chanaho]

  I must be a real bad Ranger. The reason?  I do not own a parser nor have I ever seen any parse data of me from a grp or raid. I havent the foggiest idea what my dps is. So I dont know if I should be [Removed for Content] about lu20 or not. So i guess that makes me bad.       For sure when grp'd  I no longer see the bad guys health bar go down 10-20% on one shot but some how I still feel im doing good damage and am contributing significantly. I try to remember when I get splatted for pulling agro after doing 2 deagros (that are both adept3) that im no longer ..what is that ..a T1 class.  OK.     In raids I always seem to know when im doing good and when im not doing so good. I just always try to play my Ranger as best as I can. I dont need someone telling me, when I feel ive done good and had fun, that I was subpar DPS compared to others.    When I can sneak in safely without fear of an AOE death I will use bow and mellee. If AOE is a concern I try to maximize from a safe distance.  Every single thing I do I try to think of some way I could have done it better.    Bottom line is I have a blast just playing my Ranger while trying to do my best and I could give a rats [Removed for Content] if im #1 or #20 in parse data and frankly I dont want to know where I am in that scale. It seems to bring out nothing but the worst in people and this is suppose to be a FUN game.    I have full cobalt chainmail and all legendary gear/weapons. Im 50% adept 3, 25% adept 1 and 25% masters. No fabled gear. I always use legendary poison/debuffs/stat increasers. Could I have better gear? Yes..but it could be alot worse but im proud that I either bought it  from money earned while grinding out food/drinks and selling it or from rare harvests I was lucky enough to find. I have very few things that were given to me. I built this toon! So whatever/whenever  SOE throws something my way im still and will always be "Chanahook, one proud Ranger"     <div></div>

[illum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Faelen wrote: <P>You tell me that your DPS sucks and you can post parses.  I can tell you my DPS is great and I can post parses also.  So who is right and who is wrong?  Sure there seem to be a lot of people whining on the forums about DPS, but compare that to the total number of active rangers in the game, and you people complaining about DPS are in the vast minority.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not that I really care either way, but some observations on that last point ...</P> <P>You and a few others may have great DPS, but...</P> <OL> <LI>the majority of rangers (average players) dont have great DPS...just go on several pickup raids that have a few other rangers in it, and have them parse and average it out...if all the rangers aren't t1 (not top of the heap, but t1), then DPS is broken</LI> <LI>SOE stated rangers are t1 DPS...this should imply that average rangers should always out dps at least t3 DPS classes, which isn't the case</LI> <LI>from a personal perspective, i've noticed a massive decrease in the number of active rangers...the ones I know mostly play alts and jump on with their rangers occasionally to see if anything has changed or to go harvest.</LI></OL> <P>the 3 points above and the fact that die hard happygolucky rangers are starting to become disheartened is a good sign that things are broken.</P> <P>I still play my ranger the most...not as fun as it used to be, but still playable...I get out DPS'd in groups, but I'm hitting mid t2 so it's semi bareable.  SOE has done as much as they probably ever will with rangers, so no more use complaining (which is the only way to get their attention).  I'm not sure about other rangers, but I've stopped complaining, because I've given up on SOE devs to get anything right.</P> <P>I just find it amusing that people complain about the game, then people complain about complainers, then things sort of get fixed and people sort of stop complaining, etc etc...life actually is circular:smileyvery-happy:</P>

[Faelen]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> chanahook wrote:<BR>  I must be a real bad Ranger. The reason?  I do not own a parser nor have I ever seen any parse<BR>data of me from a grp or raid. I havent the foggiest idea what my dps is. So I dont know if I should be [Removed for Content]<BR>about lu20 or not. So i guess that makes me bad.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/cheer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We need more "bad" Rangers like yourself!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Glad to see there are others out there that remember this is a game meant to be fun, and not some grand competition between each other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Faelen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> illumin wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Not that I really care either way, but some observations on that last point ...</P> <P>You and a few others may have great DPS, but...</P> <OL> <LI>the majority of rangers (average players) dont have great DPS...just go on several pickup raids that have a few other rangers in it, and have them parse and average it out...if all the rangers aren't t1 (not top of the heap, but t1), then DPS is broken<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>You cant make this statement, because there are too many variables involved.  There is no way you can honestly say that if Rangers are T1 dps that ALL rangers should automatically be on top.  You have to take into consideration play styles, gear, spell upgrades, etc.  </FONT></LI> <LI>SOE stated rangers are t1 DPS...this should imply that average rangers should always out dps at least t3 DPS classes, which isn't the case<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>Where did you ever come up with this rule?  How do you know how steep the curve is?  Maybe if T1 dps slacks off even just a little bit they should drop way below t3 t4 t5 or whatever other classes out there.</FONT></LI> <LI>from a personal perspective, i've noticed a massive decrease in the number of active rangers...the ones I know mostly play alts and jump on with their rangers occasionally to see if anything has changed or to go harvest.<BR><FONT color=#ff0000>I havent noticed this, I still see LOTS of rangers out there.  However, if this is true, awesome, more loot for me!  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></LI></OL> <P>the 3 points above and the fact that die hard happygolucky rangers are starting to become disheartened is a good sign that things are broken.</P> <P>I still play my ranger the most...not as fun as it used to be, but still playable...I get out DPS'd in groups, but I'm hitting mid t2 so it's semi bareable.  SOE has done as much as they probably ever will with rangers, so no more use complaining (which is the only way to get their attention).  I'm not sure about other rangers, but I've stopped complaining, because <STRONG>I've given up on SOE devs to get anything right.<BR><BR></STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>That statement is just way too harsh.  It has nothing to do with getting anything "right" or "wrong".  I dont understand how people looking at .0005% of the data can possibly make statements like this when the devs are measuring reports across all servers.  They are looking at game-wide averages when it comes to dps to determine if people are falling in the right spot, and they said at Fan Faire that the classes are pretty much falling exactly where they should.  You just can't look at specific examples and say things are all messed up.  It's like you're looking up at a tree and trying to tell me how big the forest is, you just dont have all the information to make that statement.  What possible motiviation would the devs have for screwing a certain class over?!?!  If they thought something was wrong, dont you think they would fix it?  They obviously feel that any major increase to our DPS would throw off balance enough to cause more problems than it would fix, and I'd have to agree with them.</FONT></P> <P>I just find it amusing that people complain about the game, then people complain about complainers, then things sort of get fixed and people sort of stop complaining, etc etc...life actually is circular:smileyvery-happy:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>There are lots of Rangers speaking up saying that their DPS is fine.  So it seems that the pervasive arguement is that you have to work too hard to get that level of DPS.  I think this is the way it SHOULD be.  Great DPS shouldnt be as simple as turning on auto-attack and pushing a few buttons.  There should be strategy and timing involved.  You have to know what skills to use in what order.  You have to know when timers will be up so you can plan in advance to re-use your bigger arts instead of wasting time with smaller ones.  You have to make use of all your buffs, gear and poisons.  Its not EASY, and it shouldnt be.  Healers dont get to sit back and have their party automatically healed, they have to actually pay attention.  Warriors have to taunt like mad and control the mobs or people will see that they are bad at their job.  DPS are the only class that have it easy.  When have you ever been blamed for a wipe?  No one says "hey ranger, you didnt do enough dps that fight and we died".</P> <P>The fact that lots of our damage is ranged is also an advantage over classes like bruisers, brigands, monks and other pure melee types.  We get to stay back out of range of those AE's and still do awesome damage.</P> <P>Class comparisons and parses are the biggest jokes because there has to be 100's of variables to keep in mind.  When you compare yourself to that Wizzy or Brigand, he may have more AA's than you, better gear, better spells, or maybe he's getting better buffs out of the rest of the party than you are.</P> <P>Ask yourself this...   If SOE devs are looking at DPS reports across all servers, and Rangers are coming out as top dps like they are designed (as stated by devs at Fan Faire) then what can you do to improve your own DPS instead of asking Sony to "dumb-down" our class so its easier for everyone to be a great Ranger.  Personally, I'm very happy to be part of a class that requires some skill to play, and I'm proud to say that my DPS is well above other people that I group with as well as in Raids. </P> <P>If half of you want to quit playing Rangers, thats fine, more glory for me!  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[A]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> illumin wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Faelen wrote: <P>You tell me that your DPS sucks and you can post parses.  I can tell you my DPS is great and I can post parses also.  So who is right and who is wrong?  Sure there seem to be a lot of people whining on the forums about DPS, but compare that to the total number of active rangers in the game, and you people complaining about DPS are in the vast minority.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Not that I really care either way, but some observations on that last point ...</P> <P>You and a few others may have great DPS, but...</P> <OL> <LI>the majority of rangers (average players) dont have great DPS...just go on several pickup raids that have a few other rangers in it, and have them parse and average it out...if all the rangers aren't t1 (not top of the heap, but t1), then DPS is broken</LI> <LI>SOE stated rangers are t1 DPS...this should imply that average rangers should always out dps at least t3 DPS classes, which isn't the case</LI> <LI>from a personal perspective, i've noticed a massive decrease in the number of active rangers...the ones I know mostly play alts and jump on with their rangers occasionally to see if anything has changed or to go harvest.</LI></OL> <P>the 3 points above and the fact that die hard happygolucky rangers are starting to become disheartened is a good sign that things are broken.</P> <P>I still play my ranger the most...not as fun as it used to be, but still playable...I get out DPS'd in groups, but I'm hitting mid t2 so it's semi bareable.  SOE has done as much as they probably ever will with rangers, so no more use complaining (which is the only way to get their attention).  I'm not sure about other rangers, but I've stopped complaining, because I've given up on SOE devs to get anything right.</P> <P>I just find it amusing that people complain about the game, then people complain about complainers, then things sort of get fixed and people sort of stop complaining, etc etc...life actually is circular:smileyvery-happy:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If I applied to the letter what you describe then the two wizzies in my guild should raise all hell and threaten to quit now.</P> <P>I m on top of dps for our raids but like someone pointed out in another thread, I am much more hardcore than anyone else in the guild so there is that.</P> <P>However when the other much casual ranger in the guild joins she is top 2 or top 3 ( granted I do about 50% more dps than her, but I have many more masters and have studied the class more than she has).</P> <P>The wizzies are usually far behind her, granted they are casual too and probably don't have a lot of masters, fact is though that they're not any more casual than the other ranger....<BR></P> <P>As for a decrease in the number of rangers, I dunno but personally I would not mind at all such a decrease.</P> <P>Before DoF most of the raiding guilds on AB had 1, maybe 2 rangers in their raiding core.</P> <P>I checked when KoS went live and a couple of those guilds were up to 4 or 5 rangers ( but still 1 or 2 assassins or others scouts class..)</P> <P>Personally I think that's too much. I do not see any reason why one dps class should be more represented than others ( and most raiding guild are not stupid, they recruit based on the guild need and the effectiveness of the desired class...)</P> <P>Finally, those 1 or 2 rangers that were in raiding guilds before DoF are still around ( the one that were there before rangers became the FoTM), I haven't seen a single of them complain and they have moved on from soloing Roost of Poet to soloing T7 named in outdoor zones and reaping great rewards from it ( like someone pointed out, arguably the person you could call the top ranger on AB now has 15 high T7 masters on the broker and is spending his time soloing the Vornerus Tyrant and others named ravasects...)</P> <P>Yes, I am not in such a raiding guild, I am what you would call a hardcore players in a casual guild. But as long as <STRONG>I can output 25% of the raid dps</STRONG> when fighting a named encounter that AE in Labs, I can not honestly stand by and say nothing when I see people claiming rangers are utterly broken and can't do any dps....</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Ail on <span class=date_text>04-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:15 PM</span>

[BSbon]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mary the Prophetess wrote:<BR> <P>The problem is that becuase of these changes, the <EM>types</EM> of things I can solo has changed; <STRONG>significantly</STRONG><EM>.</EM>  And the experience that I can gain in a 1-2 hour session, a couple of nights per week, has slowed my advancement to the point of being all but non-existent.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>while the stuff you can solo has changed the stuff that you should be able to solo has not.

[Jayad]

<DIV>Did some raiding in the last week.  First, the good news.  Ranged DPS continues to be a decent advantage.  Not a huge advantage, but with AOE mobs not having to joust can be handy.  Of course to max your dps, you have to joust, but if there is an AOE coming up you don't have to.  (I do think an assassin with a bow would do alright, they just miss the offensive stance procs)  I got to use my thorny trap this weekend.  Of course, it didn't work, but for a few seconds I felt useful. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's still a large problem with DPS.  Summoners and assassins who die once or two and go slow for a long time to avoid aggro still equal my dps when I am going pretty hard out almost the entire time.  I remember one fight where the necro died early, had to wait til the mob was at 50% before they were rezzed, came back and *still* beat my dps handily.  But we know about that problem.  I think if I could just do the dps the assassin does, I would be happy.  They seem to be where we need to be.  The night's raid cost me only 1 plat, I was being careful with arrows.  I don't know how SOE considers us fixed.  Could somebody please share how they are making 1000-1200 dps on a consistent basis without using snipe?  Maybe I'm missing something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does DPS matter?  I can tell you in a raid guild it certainly does.  you have 24 spots, a certain number for "dps", some of which bring only DPS and some of which do more than just dps.  If you don't bring anything else to the table to a raid, do you think you'll be invited if you can't do as much as another class?  we had some rogues who pretty consistently did my dps and bring tons of stuff to the table, why bring a Ranger?  It's not an idle question in raiding.  In grouping, doing let's say 25% more dps can be the difference between burning down the add fast so the healer doesn't die, and being wiped.  It can be the difference between fast XP and slower xp.  In soloing, how much dps you can do determines what you can solo effectively.  The faster you kill, the stronger the mob(s) you could take.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't want to be the uber dps, but I would like to be equal with the other top classes, because it is what i do.  When that isn't happening, in my opinion there is something wrong.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xney wrote:<BR> <DIV>Did some raiding in the last week.  First, the good news.  Ranged DPS continues to be a decent advantage.  Not a huge advantage, but with AOE mobs not having to joust can be handy.  Of course to max your dps, you have to joust, but if there is an AOE coming up you don't have to.  (I do think an assassin with a bow would do alright, they just miss the offensive stance procs)  I got to use my thorny trap this weekend.  Of course, it didn't work, but for a few seconds I felt useful. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's still a large problem with DPS.  Summoners and assassins who die once or two and go slow for a long time to avoid aggro still equal my dps when I am going pretty hard out almost the entire time.  I remember one fight where the necro died early, had to wait til the mob was at 50% before they were rezzed, came back and *still* beat my dps handily.  But we know about that problem.  I think if I could just do the dps the assassin does, I would be happy.  They seem to be where we need to be.  The night's raid cost me only 1 plat, I was being careful with arrows.  I don't know how SOE considers us fixed.  Could somebody please share how they are making 1000-1200 dps on a consistent basis without using snipe?  Maybe I'm missing something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does DPS matter?  I can tell you in a raid guild it certainly does.  you have 24 spots, a certain number for "dps", some of which bring only DPS and some of which do more than just dps.  If you don't bring anything else to the table to a raid, do you think you'll be invited if you can't do as much as another class?  we had some rogues who pretty consistently did my dps and bring tons of stuff to the table, why bring a Ranger?  It's not an idle question in raiding.  In grouping, doing let's say 25% more dps can be the difference between burning down the add fast so the healer doesn't die, and being wiped.  It can be the difference between fast XP and slower xp.  In soloing, how much dps you can do determines what you can solo effectively.  The faster you kill, the stronger the mob(s) you could take.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't want to be the uber dps, but I would like to be equal with the other top classes, because it is what i do.  When that isn't happening, in my opinion there is something wrong.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>See that's the problem.  Practically every one of the Rangers I've see post and say "My dps is just fine" or "Rangers have been fixed" either: (1) is level 60 or below with few AAs, (2) is primarily a casual or solo playstyle, or (3) conveniently doesn't post his dps or the dps of the other classes that he says he generally out-dps's.</P> <P>For soloing, I think our dps is actually pretty good.  We are actually better off than assassins.  So I understand perfectly those Rangers who say "Ranger dps is fine" when they look at it from a soloing perspective.</P> <P>But for me, I don't play EQ2 to solo.  I am in a raid guild that raids 7 days a week.  And in a raid guild, dps is paramount.  Groups are tailored to maximize each classes' dps in a complementary way giving full consideration of CAs and AAs.  In my guild, every single fight is parsed and posted in a dps channel post-fight.  So I think I know very well what dps a ranger can achieve and what dps other classes can achieve.</P> <P><EM><U>And Rangers are barely tier 2 dps in well setup raids.</U></EM></P> <P>This is how it generally breaks down when my guild raids.  The below are typical <STRONG><EM>averages</EM></STRONG> from many many fights over the course of an entire night in places like Ascent of the Awakened, Vyemm's, Temple of Scale, etc.</P> <P>Summoners/Necro:  1300-1600 dps<BR>Assassins: 1200-1500 dps<BR>Swashbucklers/Brigands:  1100-1300 dps<BR>Wizards:  1000-1500 dps<BR>Warlocks: 1000-1400 dps<BR>Monks/Bruisers: 1000-1300 dps<BR>Illusionist: 900-1200 dps<BR><STRONG>RANGERS:  850-1150 dps</STRONG><BR>Berzerkers: 750-1100 dps (offensive)</P> <P>You will, of course, note that Rangers are consistently out-dps'd by rogues and monk-types and only holding even with berzerkers.  Now I, for one, don't mind occasionally being out-dps'd by any tier2 dps class.  But to be consistently out-dps'd by them is wrong.  And just for info, to head off the inevitable questions about whether I know how to play or am equipped:  I have been playing since EQ2 started, I am level 70 with almost all Master spells and have 46 AAs.  I have decent gear.</P> <P>So for anyone who posts and says "Ranger dps is just fine".  Please let us know what your level is and your playstyle.  Because "fine" depends upon who you play with (if anyone).  Then let me know what your average dps is over a sustained period.  Because if you are a raiding ranger, and you aren't routinely, fight after fight (not "bursting" when Sniper Shot is up), doing around 1200-1500 dps...then you're wrong...ranger dps is "not just fine".</P>

[Jayad]

<P>I agree with regard to our dps in a raid setup.  And these are usually the people who know their classes very well and are trying hard to do the right amount.  Your list is close to my experience.</P> <P>Also I should note that I think *solo* rangering is fine now.  I haven't had any problems soloing since they added the additional root and the PBS AA.  I think without PBS it can be pretty difficult without kiting room, but not too worried about it.  More experienced soloing rangers might have more to say on the topic, but I do give SOE props for figuring out how to fix that aspect.  I just think their dps adjustments fall short.</P>

[Saihung23]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Faelen wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> chanahook wrote:<BR>  I must be a real bad Ranger. The reason?  I do not own a parser nor have I ever seen any parse<BR>data of me from a grp or raid. I havent the foggiest idea what my dps is. So I dont know if I should be [Removed for Content]<BR>about lu20 or not. So i guess that makes me bad.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/cheer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We need more "bad" Rangers like yourself!  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Glad to see there are others out there that remember this is a game meant to be fun, and not some grand competition between each other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If this gets me banned so be it.  </P> <P>What a overbearing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!   Do you really feel you have to beat your opinion into us or do you just enjoy trying.</P> <P>People have been here discussing this for a long time and you are just now coming in with your earthshattering news?  RANGERS ARE FINE EVERYONE!! YOURE AN IDIOT IF YOU THINK DIFFERENTLY!!</P> <P>Tell you what...why dont I come over and try to help you get your head out of your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] because it must smell horrible all the time for you.  You belittle people and try to brow beat them if they disagree.</P> <P>In real life you are likely some kid on spring break who just found the forums.  Kid you dont know what you are talking about.  Go somewhere, learn how to speak and write to others respectfully then maybe you will be taken seriously.  I see you have been with the game for a long time, why are you just now coming in and reading the forums?  You never posted much before....</P> <P>Try gaining a little respect from your peers before you try to bash their opinions to little pieces.</P> <P>Until then you post like an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  And until then you will be treated like an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</P> <P>Saihung<BR></P>

[StarryEyedElf]

<DIV>:smileyindifferent:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good bye posts are all well and good... but when they are rants... yeah, don't go there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have fun in Vanguard, WoW, The Sims Online, or whatever other game you're going to. Seriously.</DIV>