SK raid MT???

[Sine]

Just posted by Moorgard. ------------------------------------------- <div>As for health differences among the fighter classes, that is in place already. Yesterday's Beta update included changes to health and power pools, which rebalanced the class multipliers for everyone. For Fighters, it now goes like this:</div> <div> </div> <div>Warriors - Highest health pool, lowest power pool</div> <div>Brawlers - Middle health pool, middle power pool</div> <div>Crusaders - Lowest health pool, highest power pool -------------------------------------------- </div> Better hope we get a higher mitigation or avoid or parry or something.   Otherwise we will not be raid MT due to spike damage absorbtion. <div></div>

[vTenebr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sineri wrote:Just posted by Moorgard. ------------------------------------------- <div>As for health differences among the fighter classes, that is in place already. Yesterday's Beta update included changes to health and power pools, which rebalanced the class multipliers for everyone. For Fighters, it now goes like this:</div> <div> </div> <div>Warriors - Highest health pool, lowest power pool</div> <div>Brawlers - Middle health pool, middle power pool</div> <div>Crusaders - Lowest health pool, highest power pool -------------------------------------------- </div> Better hope we get a higher mitigation or avoid or parry or something.   Otherwise we will not be raid MT due to spike damage absorbtion. <div></div><hr></blockquote>And the change there is what? Isn't that how it's always been? ;/</span><div></div>

[Rylight]

lol, no, we used to be lowest health and lowest powerpool:smileyvery-happy:  ....... ok I cant really confirm that , but our powerpool was horrible (or maybe our spells were just to power consuming)

[Giral]

<P>lol  thats exactly what i was thinkin Haha Lowest/Lowest : ) </P> <P>i know the defensive stance is suppose to be working well on the Taking damage so if your MT in def/stance using LifeTap and the right concentration you should be able to MT almost anything </P> <P>Off/stance i still dont know if there is enough of a differance from Def to give us a place in a group if we not Mt Why pick an Sk  to be in a group if 3 scouts are LFG are dmg should be more than half of a scouts   i dont think scouts are Half as powerfull as Wizzies   so we should be exactly the same amount of dmg behind scouts as Scouts to Wizzies in Def/stance  and less than Half of that when we in Offensive so we are still a Viable choice for a group if we aren't MT</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Giralus on <span class=date_text>08-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:55 PM</span>

[Sine]

<span><blockquote><hr>vTenebrae wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Sineri wrote:Just posted by Moorgard. ------------------------------------------- <div>As for health differences among the fighter classes, that is in place already. Yesterday's Beta update included changes to health and power pools, which rebalanced the class multipliers for everyone. For Fighters, it now goes like this:</div> <div> </div> <div>Warriors - Highest health pool, lowest power pool</div> <div>Brawlers - Middle health pool, middle power pool</div> <div>Crusaders - Lowest health pool, highest power pool -------------------------------------------- </div> Better hope we get a higher mitigation or avoid or parry or something.   Otherwise we will not be raid MT due to spike damage absorbtion. <div></div><hr></blockquote>And the change there is what? Isn't that how it's always been? ;/</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah this is how is has been.  But hasn't this community been fighting like hell to get us on equal footing raid MT wise?  This is only going to reinforce that guardian > all other warriors for raid MT.  You can play 2nd fiddle if you want, but I sure as hell am not gonna lay just lay down.  The </span><div></div>

[Dogm]

<DIV>Yes, I really hate this.</DIV> <DIV>Raw HPs > all.</DIV> <DIV>The reason for this is casters. If you cant survive a 4k ice comet (mitigated down from 12k) then the healers cant heal you.   And yes I am on beta. In almost full Fabled I have 4k hps unbuffed (5800 on live). If this isn't a huge change I dont know what is.  And unless they reduce how much NPCs can nuke for it will be VERY hard for us to tank any mob that casts big nukes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and before you say buffs will help out. Most HPs from buffs come from STA, and guess what they changed to lower our HPS how many HP we get per sta. On live we get about 12.5 hp per sta. On Beta 4.3ish per sta.  HUGE change, and means that those great sta buffs that shaman give will be worthless, and only pure +HP buffs will matter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And guardian HPs where only higher then ours because of buff stacking, and we where definately ahead of brawlers</DIV><p>Message Edited by Dogmae on <span class=date_text>08-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:33 AM</span>

[Zoradan]

<P>Yep no mater what they do almost always raw hp is > anything.</P> <P> </P> <P>This is bad :smileysad: and very disapointing to see roll out, I feel even worse for Pallies, the "2nd best tank" with 2k less hp... oh pick him to tank!  Ya right....</P>

[Sasaki Koji]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dogmae wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes, I really hate this.</DIV> <DIV>Raw HPs > all.</DIV> <DIV>The reason for this is casters. If you cant survive a 4k ice comet (mitigated down from 12k) then the healers cant heal you.   And yes I am on beta. In almost full Fabled I have 4k hps unbuffed (5800 on live). If this isn't a huge change I dont know what is.  And unless they reduce how much NPCs can nuke for it will be VERY hard for us to tank any mob that casts big nukes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and before you say buffs will help out. Most HPs from buffs come from STA, and guess what they changed to lower our HPS how many HP we get per sta. On live we get about 12.5 hp per sta. On Beta 4.3ish per sta.  HUGE change, and means that those great sta buffs that shaman give will be worthless, and only pure +HP buffs will matter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And guardian HPs where only higher then ours because of buff stacking, and we where definately ahead of brawlers</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Dogmae on <SPAN class=date_text>08-27-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:33 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>They were suspost to change what NPC's nuked for. Remembe they removed the ability for MANY npcs to use super-powered versions of our spells. Hopefully that means King Drayerk can no longer cast Ice Comet for 10k damage <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. But its true, if they Still have that '[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] Strength' in their spells and hits, then theres no way paladins and SK wont ever be picked for MT, simply because we'll easily be one-shotted. on the other hand.. it was written that our HP differences wont be so Signficant as Paladin with the same gear as Guard in the same group having 4000hp as opposed to the guard haveing 5500hp. Moor Said it wouldnt be that significant of a change. More like you 4000 and guard 4300 or so. </P> <P>(my post on the Brawler post on tanking..)</P> <P>If it appears like this, then I for one am not worried. The way a Shadowknighs life taps are looking, and a paladins heals, it easily makes up for whatever life difference they show. Currently weve had one buff turned into a life tap proc with a better proc rate, one spell life tap amount doubled, one spell turned from a silly nuke into a physical/disease attack for a really good amount, our ward changed into a reactive life-tap/damage shield (hope its self castable now), our group lifetap proc rate increased, and our stuns work on epics now. I know, In a good group we shouldnt even have to touch these skills, but that was before the changes. They also lowered mob damage (including epics) and HP across board. We just have to wait and see whats going to happen. However i belive Brawlers should have the most HP,since when they get hit it hurts more than everyone else, plus theyre suspost to have better trained bodies, which is why they dont wear heavy armor in the first place (that and its hard to jump kick in vanguard). I also dont think Fighters of any class should Be able to buff Defense (except the Defensive stance) for anything but the group. This way whoevers in the guards group would have equal defense anyways. Given that, whoever is to be MT, group them with a guard. Being as paranoid as I am, however, i can see SOME raid leaders grouping guards w/o any other fights just to maintain thier position (yeah im that paranoid). Hopefully it wont hurt thier feelings too bad not to MT, i know some guards that get REALLY mad when they arent tank in a group (i fired them for sucking). Looking forward to out-tanking guards because of my Uber life taps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (if they dont pull out the Nerf guns on us again... Sigh)</P> <P>EDIT: oh BTW. its true about them De-superpowering our spells on NPC's. Filthe in Serpent sewers can Harm Touch for the same amout I can <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and hes lvl21 +++ heroic (This was on Test). one time he instant killed me cause he HT for app I Harm touch's max damge, other time it was lower and i was only near-death <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I expect to see ALL mobs this way. If he were anything like on the live servers that HT would have been instant kill for over 2000 damage. Glad it wasnt =) </P> <P>EDIT2: oh but then again, HT on live suxxors <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> so i prolly woulda taken like 300damage or so heh.</P> <P>Kojiro, 50 SK of Lucan D'Lere</P> <P>Xertanth, 22 SK of Test</P> <P>Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on <SPAN class=date_text>08-27-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:05 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on <span class=date_text>08-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:05 PM</span>

[Xiziz]

<DIV>Most peeps i know are rerolling to warrior class or going on to Caster type DPS. I went Swash and from what im reading ill have 2 utterly worthless characters in EQ2. Crusaders are not very welcome in most raid guilds now on my server most accept one fro Despoiling mist and some other Buffs. Most Function just fine with  4 or five Zerks and Guards to rotate in there line up. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And please dont take offense But SK is barely limping in functionality unless in high end gear. From what ive read and heard from our guild leader who is Beta on DOF Crusaders will be few and far between in high end raiding content. Luck to ya lads and hopefully they will change our Class, But making our Health pool so low and just increasing our power? What [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] good are we if we cant stay alive. Say good by to off tank SK's And MT pfffft, never happen </DIV>

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xiziz wrote:<BR> <DIV>Most peeps i know are rerolling to warrior class or going on to Caster type DPS. I went Swash and from what im reading ill have 2 utterly worthless characters in EQ2. Crusaders are not very welcome in most raid guilds now on my server most accept one fro Despoiling mist and some other Buffs. Most Function just fine with  4 or five Zerks and Guards to rotate in there line up. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And please dont take offense But SK is barely limping in functionality unless in high end gear. From what ive read and heard from our guild leader who is Beta on DOF Crusaders will be few and far between in high end raiding content. Luck to ya lads and hopefully they will change our Class, But making our Health pool so low and just increasing our power? What [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] good are we if we cant stay alive. Say good by to off tank SK's And MT pfffft, never happen </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I really hope it doesnt end up that way <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I Really rather not have to Re-roll just to enjoy the game...

[Giral]

<P>i made a post about the Player made gimping of Sk's on another thread but let me just put out the basics of it </P> <P>Group= Templar,Mystic,Assasin,Ranger,Gaurd and SK "Who is MT ? Guard is he has more HP and resists" group starts Guard loses agro "Sk"  grabs them and  Group says "No biggy we just gettin started", next pull Guard pulls and loses his target on the mob and hes takin damage healer heals pulls agro "Sk" pulls mob again ,Guard says Sorry lost my target some how " Group says dont sweat it we got it , next the guard runs thru agro and dont stop "SK" pulls again guard says " oops sorry didnt see agro" Group Say "No Prob " .  k by now Sk has tanked every encounter with out the Major buffs the MT gets Not One time did he get a thank you or a compliment BUT the Guard scr3ws up to no end and its no big deal LOL funny BUT sadly true , Now the 5th time Guard loses agro Templar says let the "SK" tank for awhile im gettin tired of healing .So now you  SK is MT you start workin the mobs and never lose agro you go 40 minutes straight fighting group is like Yeah we Kickin [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]in [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] now sweet ! Whats the Guardian thinkin?? this SK rocks Great Tank OR SK's Suck they one of the worst tanks in the game Everybody knows that! so guard see guild chat says Hey whats up His guildies say " nothin much what u doin Guardian ?" guard says "im in a group and they have a SK tankin instead of me " Guild says Are you F'knn Serious Man they are a bunch of Noob's get out of that group they goin to Wipe and you goin to get Debt BIG time" Guard says "Yeah your right they are stupid"to the Group guardian says "Sorry guys but my guild needs me i have to go now " Group says Ok later Man good meetin you hope to group you again we was kickin BUTT" Guard Chuckles to himself wyle he's portin out and he's thinkin "Suckers"</P> <P>          Is this true ? does this happen? Yes why did i never have a problem findin a group to MT for until 3 to 4 months into game? why all of a sudden isnt a SK a great choice for MT THE  reason you hear is Guards do it "EASIER" Period. Is that really all there is to all the guilds on every single server ? what is the Easiest possible way to get this done ? how Lame ! How Boring ! who the hell want's every single encounter to be a 100% success rate what kind of f'kn fun is that ? Level 50 are bored out of there minds cuase all they do is endless Raids over and over Except for a few lvl 50 toons that arent that much of a help in some players eye's When you hear Sk's have tanked the Entire game and All End game Raids and then listen to the crap of SK's are a sucky MT it's an Oxymoron. The only [Removed for Content] on live with Sk as main tank is the Player Base that wants the game to be Absolutly no challenge at all That wants a 100% guarante on every single fight So they use the same Boring group same set up for months on end and then complain there bored wyle others are bored cuase they cant even get in 1 of those raids over months and months what a Joke . and we Can also MA best in game that has been pointed out also But does taht change anything Nope almost all the posts hear are from Sk's who cant get an invite to Raid except a few who raid all the time becuase they actually have Intelligent guild people who understand SK's are very usefull in any condition</P> <P>              I'm sorry but with the re-vamp alot of the player base is goin to stick with the tried and true method of Guard for MT all the time Thats how they did it for months And re-vamp shows Poeple Hate Drastic change so they will stick with guards and never realize the possibilities of SK's as mt . And if your an Sk and dont want to MT then your offensive stance should do DPs at between 1/2 to 3/4 of a predator so you can function in an off tank position </P> <P>    </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Giralus wrote:<BR> <P>i made a post about the Player made gimping of Sk's on another thread but let me just put out the basics of it </P> <P>Group= Templar,Mystic,Assasin,Ranger,Gaurd and SK "Who is MT ? Guard is he has more HP and resists" group starts Guard loses agro "Sk"  grabs them and  Group says "No biggy we just gettin started", next pull Guard pulls and loses his target on the mob and hes takin damage healer heals pulls agro "Sk" pulls mob again ,Guard says Sorry lost my target some how " Group says dont sweat it we got it , next the guard runs thru agro and dont stop "SK" pulls again guard says " oops sorry didnt see agro" Group Say "No Prob " .  k by now Sk has tanked every encounter with out the Major buffs the MT gets Not One time did he get a thank you or a compliment BUT the Guard scr3ws up to no end and its no big deal LOL funny BUT sadly true , Now the 5th time Guard loses agro Templar says let the "SK" tank for awhile im gettin tired of healing .So now you  SK is MT you start workin the mobs and never lose agro you go 40 minutes straight fighting group is like Yeah we Kickin [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]in [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] now sweet ! Whats the Guardian thinkin?? this SK rocks Great Tank OR SK's Suck they one of the worst tanks in the game Everybody knows that! so guard see guild chat says Hey whats up His guildies say " nothin much what u doin Guardian ?" guard says "im in a group and they have a SK tankin instead of me " Guild says Are you F'knn Serious Man they are a bunch of Noob's get out of that group they goin to Wipe and you goin to get Debt BIG time" Guard says "Yeah your right they are stupid"to the Group guardian says "Sorry guys but my guild needs me i have to go now " Group says Ok later Man good meetin you hope to group you again we was kickin BUTT" Guard Chuckles to himself wyle he's portin out and he's thinkin "Suckers"</P> <P>          Is this true ? does this happen? Yes why did i never have a problem findin a group to MT for until 3 to 4 months into game? why all of a sudden isnt a SK a great choice for MT THE  reason you hear is Guards do it "EASIER" Period. Is that really all there is to all the guilds on every single server ? what is the Easiest possible way to get this done ? how Lame ! How Boring ! who the hell want's every single encounter to be a 100% success rate what kind of f'kn fun is that ? Level 50 are bored out of there minds cuase all they do is endless Raids over and over Except for a few lvl 50 toons that arent that much of a help in some players eye's When you hear Sk's have tanked the Entire game and All End game Raids and then listen to the crap of SK's are a sucky MT it's an Oxymoron. The only [Removed for Content] on live with Sk as main tank is the Player Base that wants the game to be Absolutly no challenge at all That wants a 100% guarante on every single fight So they use the same Boring group same set up for months on end and then complain there bored wyle others are bored cuase they cant even get in 1 of those raids over months and months what a Joke . and we Can also MA best in game that has been pointed out also But does taht change anything Nope almost all the posts hear are from Sk's who cant get an invite to Raid except a few who raid all the time becuase they actually have Intelligent guild people who understand SK's are very usefull in any condition</P> <P>              I'm sorry but with the re-vamp alot of the player base is goin to stick with the tried and true method of Guard for MT all the time Thats how they did it for months And re-vamp shows Poeple Hate Drastic change so they will stick with guards and never realize the possibilities of SK's as mt . And if your an Sk and dont want to MT then your offensive stance should do DPs at between 1/2 to 3/4 of a predator so you can function in an off tank position </P> <P>    </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Lol, that has happened to me many times. I was helping some people Do thier heritage quest in Lavastorm one day, full group of SK, Guard, Inquis, Temp, and assassin. Well, i noticed the guard had just turned lvl50, so being my funny SK self, is said 'OMG guard your lvl50 now, YOU TANK /grin' So he tanked and got beat up some, and i followed his lead... all up until he got my Girlfriend killed because he'd rather train mobs than fight them. So yeah, i fired his [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] on the spot and just took agro like it wasnt nothing. He eventually gave up and switched to a 2h weapon <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. No one gets my Princess killed, NO ONE! rar.</P> <P>Youre also right about no one ever blames the guard. that same group it was just 'no prob, we can dig'. Man its frusterating. The guard doesnt even have to be a GOOD guard, hes just a guard so hes instantly capable of ANYTHING. what a load of crap... I was in a raid and pulled agro simply by autoattacking, and who do they yell at, me of course. me me me [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] them SK and their good agroing! I feared they would tie me up and beat me with a stick. hoping candy would pop out!</P> <P>I love my job!</P> <P>Kojiro 50th SK of Lucan D'Lere</P> <p>Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on <span class=date_text>08-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:49 PM</span>

[Elymri]

<P>all i can say is .. what kind of drugs are they using </P> <P>to mess with something so fundamental for a tank class as hitpoints </P> <DIV>I was pleasantly surprized about the revamp, I even thought that I would be tanking some raid mobs but nooo ill just be a dps class with nerfed dps.. yay me</DIV>

[Sasaki Koji]

<P>Extacy, Crack, Cocaine, Speed, Ridaline, Something worse than all those, and all of the above </P> <P>EDIT: Prolly some Anti-Depressants too i dunno...</P> <p>Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on <span class=date_text>08-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:58 PM</span>

[Xiziz]

<DIV>Giralus seems to be having Fun as SK , at least he is it seems .More and more peeps are noticing the unbalance in tank classes. My take on it is we have 2 tank classes Offensive and Defensive . Guardian Defensive, Zerker Offensive. where does SK fit in ? Some say Support tank we get Mit debuff ,group LT procs ,and some Armor Buffs making us support tanks. Simply put people have done the math, they have broke down the numbers on what we bring to the table. What ever we bring to the table othe rclasses can do better, DPS Put in assasin or ranger we dont even hold a candle to thier numbers, you need Debuffs and Tank buffs the shaman classes or Druid classes get Various Abilites with higher effect then SK. They may not be on the Same streams but our STR bdebuffs are pretty weak compared to the heat and cold debuffs the other classes can pump into an epic. And our Disease debuffs pffft. our only saving grace is despoing mist which is pretty iffy to stick. The bottom line is we are like a handy man some one to handle small jobs you dont want to pay a Contractor to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I am strictly speaking from my Expierence on my server. Seems Giralus and Phoz have different expierences on thier respective servers. So before you go lighting up my post and start saying i dont know what i am talking about i am stating this is my expierence on my server. Guilds that are succesfull are Doing Drayek with 2 groups zalak  2 groups, Venekor ,Vox  4 groups, And the contested are still hit and miss. :smileyhappy: They got it down , Ive asked as to why these guilds dont except more then 1 or 2 SK's and its all the Same answer, What you do we can find another class to do it better.</DIV>

[pawnipt]

In the current combat system im usually in the main tank group buffing the MT with Gift of armament (to stack on some Mitigation) and Calculated evasion (to help avoid some attacks for the MT) and Unholy Strength for some stat buffage.  To the MT the mitigation and avoidance is most important, and a Crusader is able to give both proving to be a useful main tank buffer (other classes may be able to give more Mitigation and avoidance, but theres always the question of what stacks with what and that every little bit helps. So you are saying in the combat changes this usefulness is removed???!!! <div></div>

[Vrug]

<DIV>I am a level 50 SK who has tanked allot of the lower tier epics- IE both Kings( well King Z before the new and improved version) Angler, The Drakotas for Priz etc.  All I can say is it is easier to use a guardian- they where always able to get aggro back if they where worth a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] much quicker then a SK especially in a multiple group encounter.  Now with the new patch  I discover my Health is 1900 HPs lower when self buffed- and my mana pool is lower by like 200.  Explain to me how I will be able to handle even a named with say a Ice comet that hits for 5k.  Figure our Master 2 Ruinious Touch does 2-4k of damage so you know that mobs will be doing the same.   Then comes the fact we were suppose to need STR and Wis as our main stats.  Well our new Plaque sword buff is a INT buff (100 at adapt 3)  so since this is our offensive buff we will also need to get our INT up if we want to do any DPS.  I dont care how much mitigation they give us- we are going to take a beating and barely have more HP then the Wiz in our group.  Our taunts are still weak, we have only 2 taunts (1 of which is a taunt over time)  and 1 taunting attack (that cannot be used on a  ^^^).   Our group buff is now watered down and is just a proc, its level 51 replacement is basically the same thing and still no buff to disease resist or Slash/Pierce/Crush.     </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was happy with the changes in combat other then the group buff.  Now I really question why I have tried to prove that the SK class is worth anything.  I pray they come to there sense our I feel our class will be in trouble.</DIV>

[Xiziz]

1900 hp thats laughable, Sony why dont you just remove SK were worse then in EQ 1 you dont even remotely understand the frustration of your players who use this class id rather you say look were removing the class from the game it serves no purpose appologies for wasting your time

[Sasaki Koji]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xiziz wrote:<BR>1900 hp thats laughable, Sony why dont you just remove SK were worse then in EQ 1 you dont even remotely understand the frustration of your players who use this class id rather you say look were removing the class from the game it serves no purpose appologies for wasting your time <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No no, dont remove it, instead change it to Jester with -50 to all stats.. and 1hp</DIV>

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vrugor wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am a level 50 SK who has tanked allot of the lower tier epics- IE both Kings( well King Z before the new and improved version) Angler, The Drakotas for Priz etc.  All I can say is it is easier to use a guardian- they where always able to get aggro back if they where worth a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] much quicker then a SK especially in a multiple group encounter.  Now with the new patch  I discover my Health is 1900 HPs lower when self buffed- and my mana pool is lower by like 200.  Explain to me how I will be able to handle even a named with say a Ice comet that hits for 5k.  Figure our Master 2 Ruinious Touch does 2-4k of damage so you know that mobs will be doing the same.   Then comes the fact we were suppose to need STR and Wis as our main stats.  Well our new Plaque sword buff is a INT buff (100 at adapt 3)  so since this is our offensive buff we will also need to get our INT up if we want to do any DPS.  I dont care how much mitigation they give us- we are going to take a beating and barely have more HP then the Wiz in our group.  Our taunts are still weak, we have only 2 taunts (1 of which is a taunt over time)  and 1 taunting attack (that cannot be used on a  ^^^).   Our group buff is now watered down and is just a proc, its level 51 replacement is basically the same thing and still no buff to disease resist or Slash/Pierce/Crush.     </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was happy with the changes in combat other then the group buff.  Now I really question why I have tried to prove that the SK class is worth anything.  I pray they come to there sense our I feel our class will be in trouble.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dont forget Blasphemy is one our tauts. and Destructive slam as i see should hit epics, but it looks like they took the Taunt out of it so yea i guess 2 taunts... Insideous Whisper and Blasphemy

[Giral]

<DIV>lol yeah and have are squire stand there jugglin health and mana potions/totems and they should have made the new monkeys in the game be are pets.  Que the benny hill theme song </DIV>

[Kagatoey]

Eh...not surprising to me. They might as well shove us in VLA. =/ <div></div>

[Eatu]

<DIV>i just recently did some tests myself with the new nerf to HP gained per stamina and it is ridiculous.   I have the master 1 version of the Unholy Str (beta it now increases str and sta of group by 42).  Before the new ratios it gave over 600 hp to us and group *wohoo*.... after the buff the master 1 gives us a whoppin 200 or so hp.....WOW that is sad, thats like a 2/3 decrease in hp.   Just dreadful.</DIV>

[SaraBH]

<P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff0000 size=4>first /ooc I see a hole lot of dogging are class but i didnt play a Shadow Knight for any other reson then this sounds like a fun class. I have loved playing my Shadow Knight and have always been abile to addapt to every change that has come. Should we truely become a worthless class then I for one will love proving everyone wrong and doing the impossible. if you dont Roleplay pay no attantion to the lower statmente hehe its kind of mean but ha im a Shadow Knight.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff0000 size=4></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff0000 size=4>Now /Roleplay  What is this I here you pitiful eqcuses for Shadow Knights. Your gods should feel ashamed at you all. Noone ever said are lives would be easy, We are Shadow Knights, show some back bone. Adapt and overcome there is nothing that we can not do. I for one see no reason to lay down and die without a fight. Should I die, then I for one will die with my boots up to the rim in the blood of my enemys and there will be talls written in my wake. Your lack of faith disgustes me and should we ever meet on the field Pray we stand on the same side.</FONT></P>

[vTenebr]

<div></div>All those complaining now, complained before.  I hate to say it, but some people will never ever be happy. A lot of these changes are occuring to other classes as well.  The guardians had an entire line of buffs that used to stack all on top of each other.  The hp disparity will still be there, but it won't be in terms of THOUSANDS of hitpoints, like it is now.  It'll be a few hundred.  The idea is that while Guardians will still be the "biggier, beefier" tanks, the rest of us are supposed to be VIABLE alternatives.  As it stands now, we're really not.. unless people are willing to work that much harder.  That doesn't mean we were gimped.  We just had a different role.  It just wasn't as MT for most raid mobs.  (Groups were different, we were always excellent in group settings) Before everyone goes into a blind tizzy, lets actually see how it works.  I understand a few of us beta test and some are complaining.  BUT.. people complained non-stop before the revamp that we were gimped (we weren't), people will complain AFTER the revamp.  Those people seem to frequent the boards.  Those who don't hate the class, and don't have envy about the other fighters, get 1 starred to hell and back for DARING to speak against the whining majority.  If you dare say "No, seriously.. I think these are positive changes" or previously "no, seriously.. we're not gimped" you were slammed. So, those who don't post and only glean info... Don't believe the constant dissention, griping, and complaints.. check for yourself.  You may be pleasantly surprised at the outcome. <div></div><p>Message Edited by vTenebrae on <span class=date_text>08-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:57 AM</span>

[pawnipt]

Hope they take this change into account, and maybe add something useful to this buff.... Didnt they take out the AGI buff of it and now STA is nerfed so whats the use of this skill really, isnt much useful anymore is it.. <div></div>

[Sasaki Koji]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SaraBH wrote:<BR> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff0000 size=4>first /ooc I see a hole lot of dogging are class but i didnt play a Shadow Knight for any other reson then this sounds like a fun class. I have loved playing my Shadow Knight and have always been abile to addapt to every change that has come. Should we truely become a worthless class then I for one will love proving everyone wrong and doing the impossible. if you dont Roleplay pay no attantion to the lower statmente hehe its kind of mean but ha im a Shadow Knight.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff0000 size=4></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ff0000 size=4>Now /Roleplay  What is this I here you pitiful eqcuses for Shadow Knights. Your gods should feel ashamed at you all. Noone ever said are lives would be easy, We are Shadow Knights, show some back bone. Adapt and overcome there is nothing that we can not do. I for one see no reason to lay down and die without a fight. Should I die, then I for one will die with my boots up to the rim in the blood of my enemys and there will be talls written in my wake. Your lack of faith disgustes me and should we ever meet on the field Pray we stand on the same side.</FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have had to prove my abilities to others day after day. But they treat me as if im a criple again. There are only a handful of people that know my true abilities as a shadowknight, and other than raids, they are the only ones i perfere to travel with. Everyone else can just rot, decay, suffer, and die... in that order.</DIV>

[Sine]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>Things may be okay HP wise.  Been reading the paladin boards b/c what generally happens to them happens to us.  Go to this < a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=14678&page=2and" > link < /a > scroll down to see the SS of hps.  Apparently Crusaders get 4.5 hps per 1 STA and guards get 4.75 hp per 1 STA.  So even at 400 STA they would only have 100hps more then us.  I can live with that and combined with superior disease resists we definitely have a spot in the rotation to MT raids. <div></div><p>edit: pwned by html</p> <p> </p> <p> <span class="time_text"></span></p> <p> <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Sineri on <span class="date_text">08-29-2005</span> <span class="time_text">03:21 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Sineri on <span class=date_text>08-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:27 PM</span>

[Gaedan]

It seems to me (and though I do not have level 50 experience in this game, I have played tanks in other MMOs to raid levels), that SKs still have a spot in situations where you have a Guardian tanking as being a self-sufficient off-tank, or, with our disease resist and lifetaps, that the increased power pool will create a situation where the total amount of HPs we have including our wards and lifetap heals will exceed those of a guardian by essentially converting power into health.  Granted, resists being what they are, and high damage attacks (always a risk in any game), I can see where people would have the perception that all you need is a pile of walking HP (like EQ1). As with any major group role (tanking, healing, crowd control), perception is 7/10s of mastery.  If nobody believes that a SK can tank (or a druid can heal, or, well, in EQ1, say, a bard can CC), then you'll never change their minds.  Just like in WOW (I have a level 60 Protection spec Paladin), nobody would believe I can tank until we had a warrior die on Gen. Drakk and I stepped up and tanked the rest of the fight.  Not trying to brag, but anyone familiar with the game or game mechanics (or just the whinefest that is their forums), will know that this is a similar issue. *shrugs* My 2c. <div></div>

[Sasaki Koji]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaedan wrote:<BR>It seems to me (and though I do not have level 50 experience in this game, I have played tanks in other MMOs to raid levels), that SKs still have a spot in situations where you have a Guardian tanking as being a self-sufficient off-tank, or, with our disease resist and lifetaps, that the increased power pool will create a situation where the total amount of HPs we have including our wards and lifetap heals will exceed those of a guardian by essentially converting power into health.  Granted, resists being what they are, and high damage attacks (always a risk in any game), I can see where people would have the perception that all you need is a pile of walking HP (like EQ1).<BR><BR>As with any major group role (tanking, healing, crowd control), perception is 7/10s of mastery.  If nobody believes that a SK can tank (or a druid can heal, or, well, in EQ1, say, a bard can CC), then you'll never change their minds.  Just like in WOW (I have a level 60 Protection spec Paladin), nobody would believe I can tank until we had a warrior die on Gen. Drakk and I stepped up and tanked the rest of the fight.  Not trying to brag, but anyone familiar with the game or game mechanics (or just the whinefest that is their forums), will know that this is a similar issue.<BR><BR>*shrugs*<BR><BR>My 2c.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Absolutely right. ALMOST everyone has done the guardian thing since relase. Tho on some servers i have heard of Guardian being offtank and PLD/SK being MT sometimes, but on once. I belive now, before Re-vamp, that i could fight on-par with guardians if i got the same Raidlvl buffs they usually are given. I dont know if the re-vamp will change peoples attitudes towards this. On my server, many raid guilds 'Buffed out the guard' with fabled gear and everyone else came second. and even when the guard dies in a raid, and mind you a simple one, no one would care to heal me because im not a guardian <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I dont mind tha tho, since i didnt have any buffs worth preserving. Ii hope people will come to thier senses with this revamp, Seeing as Crusader and Guardian are becomeing more Equal. Truthfully, if a mob does no Heat damage, Cold Damage, Disease damage, or Divine damage, I dont see a reason for Warriors or Crusaders to just flip a coin now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. What needs more focus now is Brawlers, who seem to still be getting the low end of tanking.</DIV>

[Vrug]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vTenebrae wrote:<BR> All those complaining now, complained before.  I hate to say it, but some people will never ever be happy.<BR><BR>A lot of these changes are occuring to other classes as well.  The guardians had an entire line of buffs that used to stack all on top of each other.  The hp disparity will still be there, but it won't be in terms of THOUSANDS of hitpoints, like it is now.  It'll be a few hundred.  The idea is that while Guardians will still be the "biggier, beefier" tanks, the rest of us are supposed to be VIABLE alternatives.  <BR><BR>As it stands now, we're really not.. unless people are willing to work that much harder.  That doesn't mean we were gimped.  We just had a different role.  It just wasn't as MT for most raid mobs.  (Groups were different, we were always excellent in group settings)<BR><BR>Before everyone goes into a blind tizzy, lets actually see how it works.  I understand a few of us beta test and some are complaining.  BUT.. people complained non-stop before the revamp that we were gimped (we weren't), people will complain AFTER the revamp.  Those people seem to frequent the boards.  <BR><BR>Those who don't hate the class, and don't have envy about the other fighters, get 1 starred to hell and back for DARING to speak against the whining majority.  If you dare say "No, seriously.. I think these are positive changes" or previously "no, seriously.. we're not gimped" you were slammed.<BR><BR>So, those who don't post and only glean info...<BR><BR>Don't believe the constant dissention, griping, and complaints.. check for yourself.  You may be pleasantly surprised at the outcome.<BR> <P>Message Edited by vTenebrae on <SPAN class=date_text>08-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:57 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well since I would have to assume this is pointed at me I think you need to reread some of my post.  I have tanked epics, I was the main tank for 95 percennt of my groups up to level 50. I have always stated that SKs can be the MT for allot of the Epic encounters.  SK taunts are weak compared to guards so I had to learn how to maintane aggro by other means, and I can keep aggro.  It was just easier to have a Guard tank on a raid due to Higher HP and easier Aggro control.   </P> <P>Now I do retract most of my previous post.  Yes, I was just [Removed for Content] about the HP loss and did not take the time to test it out.  Now that I have tested it out I will have to say that I think we will do fine tanking.  I can solo blue ^^^ pretty easily, I duoed yellow ^^^ with a monk and even though he was 2 levels higher then me it was easier to have me tank since I take the beating way better then him and my Lifetap heals result in allot of healing.    I do think there is hope for the SK class to be MT on epic raids.  I still believe that they need to increase are taunts or at least give us some taunting attacks.  At level 50 your Master 2 choices are Offensive stance, defensive stance, Ruinious touch, or the Single target taunt.  Insidious whisper is very good at master 2, but then you have to choose between having a very good deefensive stance, a taunt, DPS, or Ruinious touch.  All these spells except Ruinious touch are replaced and I feel that in the long run you are better off with the spell that will last you the longest so you have 2 master 2s at level 60.  I think with a little tweaking of adept 3/ master 1 quality insidious whisper we will have no problems with aggro.  This will make us a viable option for the MT position- able to keep aggro and able to take the beating.  </P>

[Sine]

<div></div>Well now that HPs have been fixed, my main concern is taunts as well.  The only taunts i think we will have are insidous whisper line (single target), the blasphemy line (aoe line) and the caress line (DS taunt).  I am worried that we might have to let the mob beat on us a few times with caress before the mages can do their thing.  Also I read that unholy blessing can only be cast on someone else inthe group.  This greatly concerns me b/c those wards currently are a staple of holding aggro.  Can any Beta SK post here addressing the sufficiency of our taunts in beta? Edit: forgot the shield bash line (ToT taunt). No numbers are given on the SS of the spell descriptions.  Any sks test the effectiveness of it? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sineri on <span class=date_text>08-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:32 AM</span>

[Ne]

<DIV>We also still have the SP single-taunt, Gauding Gesture. Its on the same timer as Insidious Whisper, but its instant. We can always use that one in the pull and build from there. I also assume that our lifetaps + pet (whose damage should now be assigned to us, and is independent of if we're tanking or dps:ing) will build sweet aggro for us.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never had any problems whatsoever to build aggro on live. I've tanked a few epics and from the feedback I got from my guildies the aggro I build is even better than what the guardians do. You just have to utilize all your skills. We have loads of combo-skills doing both damge, healing, debuffing, buffing in one keystroke, these "secondary" effects build alot of aggro, just use them! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One problem for us SKs is the SK-is-[Removed for Content] mentality that is deeply anchored in the EQ society. A guardian never has to prove himself, we SKs really have to spell it out to our group/raid mates what we can and cannot do, otherwise we will just be lucky to get the last misc-spot in the raid/group. On the other hand, this has the effect that all SKs I have met are really skilled as gamers compared to many guardians out there, because we could never afford to make many mistakes.  :smileyhappy: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How many non-SKs out there actually knows that we can even out-damage wizards against raid mobs (if equipped properly)? That we really excel at tanking warlock raid mobs (in proper resist-gear)? Our great utility in the MT group against epic zerg-encounters (like Lagoon, mitigation, avoidance + most importantly the groupwide lifetap-proc-buff)?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hang in there fellas!  </DIV>

[Sine]

If you look at tunabash's screen shot in this thread http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=comtest&message.id=5823&page=1 you see that when his cursor is scrolled over "avoidance" that it is composed of a base, parry, block, and deflection factors.  Can any sks in beta test couple of things: 1) see if "shield factor" on shield changes any of these factors. 2) see how much our calc. evasion 4.6 increases the parry %.

[Kilo]

<div></div>Hrmm. I came back because of Sony's free 7 day subscription, sucks to see they're still ignoring SKs 5 months after I quit :/ Of course, I wasn't suscribed when the beta was opened for registration so I don't know anything about that, but after reading some, I still can't see us MTing on anything but Drayek's, like before I quit, which wouldn't surprise me... <div></div><p>Message Edited by Kilopy on <span class=date_text>09-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:44 PM</span>

[Giral]

yeah can anyone please post up those numbers for Sineri BUffed and Unbuffed a screen shots would be nice (and there is already bad mouthing of Sk's on that thread lol) BUT it is a good thread with good intent if we can get some numbers to compare so that we have something to show to the Dev's of what are disparities are and why we still wouldn't be chosen to MT raids over other Tanks      OR      why we should be able to and WHy and how you get to that conclusion

[Sine]

any sks on beta help us out with this? <div></div>

[vTenebr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Vrugor wrote:<div></div> <p>Well since I would have to assume this is pointed at me.......</p><hr></blockquote>Future reference, if I mean you... I quote you. Don't be so narcissistic. Kilopy, don't let the dissenters get you down. The changes were pretty vast and sweeping.  It looks like many encounters will be tailored to specific classes.  Our taunt over time will make us extremely useful for mobs that stun.. our lifetaps make us viable in other ways. I've been playing an SK in beta, believe me.. we're in line to stand beside any other tank.  I think the changes are good <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Anyone who says otherwise.. well, they're doing something wrong ;/</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by vTenebrae on <span class=date_text>09-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:39 AM</span>

[SinIsLaw]

well revamp sure ... lots of changes and it be learning ur class all over again ... So I have "mixed feelings" about it both pls don't and also looking forward to them! From what I have read it will be harder to play a sk, since you need to learn which stances and buff 2 use according to the situation!!! yeah a challenge … this is were it most prob will make or break a good SK! Only think I dislike is that fights are supposed to take much longer now … always enjoyed taking down the BM in EF in no time, while other classes chew on here for ages :o) Anyhow CC will hit everyone... All classes complain, but well it's gonna happen, if we like it or not …roll up ur Trades killing army if u want dull straight forward game play. I haven't yet been a MT at a raid, and don't really want to at this stage! Imho what has been missing so far, is that SoE brings out a nasty disease based mob, where our strength lies and I'm sure we'll be the top man 2 MT that one, our time will come sooner or later ... and in case it's not happening, pffft so what - I won't like my class less cause of that, I know what we as SKs can do ... <div></div>

[pawnipt]

Sony has made Fabled gear more important in the revamp, and each Fighter class main defensive stance is the same except for a specific resistance to a certain magic.  So generally if you got full fabled and master defence buff you'll make a good tank, of course having a guardians group buffs will make you a slightly better tank, so make them your buff b!tch and tell em to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. Also get any other class that stacks defence or parry and mitigation (who knows what classes after revamp).  I really see us as being better tanks in revamp so be sure to do a nice defensive respec!!! On the current live servers i've successfully tanked: King Zalak King Drayek Rognog the Angler K'Dal the Deciever (duel tanked of course) All without dieing. <div></div>

[Xartan]

<P>Not to sound like a jerk but you people are a bunch of whiny babies.</P> <P>SK are great in beta.</P> <P>The only people who don't think so are the same people who whine about everything anyways.</P> <P>Guess what, on my server one of the best guilds has a SK leader/MT. Works just fine.</P> <P>Sure we lost HP but so did every other class. I've seen MT of a really bigtime guild complain that he got screwed over in beta, and he's a guardian with insane fabled gear. Guess what, everybody got toned down - but SK got MAJOR improvements.</P> <P>To start with - taunts do double the current hate. We have 3 stances - one for solo defense, one for mt in a group and one for offense. Our pets are tougher and when they die, all their hate comes to us - they last 30 seconds so its like an aggro timebomb.</P> <P>Add in the fact that all our spells are for the most part intact, our lifetaps do more and are actually useful. We have a manatap. We have Death March - when you get the killshot your groups DPS goes up by crazy amounts for the next 15seconds.</P> <P>So stop whining!</P> <P> </P>

[Giral]

<P>         Not everyone is whining on here and Sineri has asked questions and for screenshots for comparisons on another thread that is tryin to Put together the reasons of using diffrent tanks after re-vamp and what tanks do what and what all the numbers are amounting 2 . so Stop Flaming and stop reverse whining and help answer some questions (i dont even know where these lasts posts came form? did you just read the first few threads on this post ?)</P> <P>           We are trying to get a grasp and understanding of What Sk's are Bringing to the Table "now" and We are also trying to SHOW this to other players that don't Know about Shadowknights and what we can do  They Can Make shadowknights the best tank in the game but if the other 90% of the players STILL don't know what we can do OR more importantly How we do it then we will still be a Gimped class regardless of how great we are We are great on Live now we can Tank the whole Game so why are so many SK's still kicked to the Curb on live ?????????????? It's called ignorance The current player base is convinced that Guardians are the Only way to go . So if you want to help change that Please by all means post up some screenshots for Sineri(threads above show her requests) so we can explain to other players How We MT and what we Bring to a raid So we dont Once again Get Player Gimped when all this goes live.</P> <P> SideNote : Currently with changes the new contention IS between guards and Zerkers for MT now on Raids / </P> <P>Pallies and Sk's are already Gimped in there eyes in  re-vamp becuase of     A) we have the Least HP   B) We still dont have the added Stats from a Ranged slot item and      C) we have to Sk Lifetap/Pallies Heal in the middle of fights to keep are health up to parr with a Guard /Zerker / If we keep getting Hit we can't get are skills off = Healer out of power / Tank out of Health  = Death </P> <P>So we would like to get some info and #'s up for comparison to start makin other people aware of "HOW" we MT so we don't repeat the problems on live This combat  re-vamp will do nothing for us IF all the players Still have no Clue what we do     </P> <P>show them that are lower HP is offset Big time by our lifetaps </P> <P>what are skills do to mobs that make us usefull on a raid </P> <P>and any other info that will help </P> <P>Thanks in advance </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Sine]

People need to actually read the thread before they hit the reply button.  There isn't any whining here.  What I, and others, have been asking for is ss and more information from the sks invited in beta.  I need as much information as possible to educate myself so that I can then educate others who don't know about the Sk.  Believe it or not I still get levels 50s calling "add" when i cast my bird pet (granted this guy wasn't a regular who i group with but nevertheless I shows the current level of SK knowledge even at high levels).  <-- these are the people that need education and we as the Sks need hard cold data, not platitudes like "we are fine." <div></div>

[Xartan]

<P>Sineri, you need hard cold proof that we're fine? You're taking the word of people who love to complain about how we suck, but then you won't take the word of somebody who says we're fine? Nobody writes on the boards about how we rock because guess what.. if you think we rock, then you won't feel the need to post a note about it.</P> <P>I'm not about to do all the crazy research some people have done on beta to show our current standings in the game. But - the fact is that you're trying to argue an impossible point.</P> <P>Guardians will always be the best MT class for a raid. The difference now is that SK and Paladin and even bruiser and monk CAN do the job, it just takes a different approach. And no - its not that much harder! The reason most people feel that SK "suck" are that we lose aggro so often - this will no longer be the case, I can GUARANTEE you that you will hold aggro just fine WITHOUT burning all your mana up. I'm not going to bother running tests to parse data and aggro benefits. I try not to bring a palm pilot with me in my inventory when I decide to grind out some exp. In my experiences on live and on beta there is a distinct difference between cycling HO after HO and laying out every single attack just to barely hold aggro over the rest of the group and just plain taunting now and again (with the correct stance on). Guess what, if you're tanking with a 2hs in your offensive stance and not taunting, you might lose aggro! it happens! If you want to tank and keep aggro you should be using cursed caress, and a shield, shield bash generates over 400 aggro, the same as a normal taunt! Keep in mind that while they smothed out the mitigation across all armour pieces there is a huge increase to mitigation on shields as well. That gives you 3 solid taunts, and with the damage you can put out you should have no trouble holding aggro. Add your timebomb aggro of the pet... if you lose aggro in beta, you deserve to whine, because you just plain suck at life. </P> <P>Now what are the main complaints? Lack of HP? Again, like several people have pointed out, we may have lost what was it 1900hp? Well guardians lost more! And even better (for us) they can't stack all the hp buffs like they used to. No more 10K raid buffed guardians. So 300 hp is really going to make them that much better for MT situations? HP has nothing to do with it. Its the guardians skills that make them a better choice as MT. We can easily fill the role now (just as before) but its a lot easier for us as players to do it.</P> <P>I just wish people would be able to take the word of somebody being positive rather than point to all the negative things people imagine. And yes, saying that SOE better change something or we'll be at the bottom of the pile again IS whining.</P> <P>Theres no quick-guide-to-tanking at gamefaqs.com Any self-respecting shadowknight who has stuck it out this long and been able to make a name for himself or herself as a tank (like i have) should have no trouble figuring out how to tank without graphs and pie charts helping them. And yes, you'll be able to tank at raids just fine too. I don't have any screenshots to prove that you don't suck. You're just going to have to prove it yourself.</P>

[Sasaki Koji]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xartan wrote:<BR> <P>Sineri, you need hard cold proof that we're fine? You're taking the word of people who love to complain about how we suck, but then you won't take the word of somebody who says we're fine? Nobody writes on the boards about how we rock because guess what.. if you think we rock, then you won't feel the need to post a note about it.</P> <P>I'm not about to do all the crazy research some people have done on beta to show our current standings in the game. But - the fact is that you're trying to argue an impossible point.</P> <P>Guardians will always be the best MT class for a raid. The difference now is that SK and Paladin and even bruiser and monk CAN do the job, it just takes a different approach. And no - its not that much harder! The reason most people feel that SK "suck" are that we lose aggro so often - this will no longer be the case, I can GUARANTEE you that you will hold aggro just fine WITHOUT burning all your mana up. I'm not going to bother running tests to parse data and aggro benefits. I try not to bring a palm pilot with me in my inventory when I decide to grind out some exp. In my experiences on live and on beta there is a distinct difference between cycling HO after HO and laying out every single attack just to barely hold aggro over the rest of the group and just plain taunting now and again (with the correct stance on). Guess what, if you're tanking with a 2hs in your offensive stance and not taunting, you might lose aggro! it happens! If you want to tank and keep aggro you should be using cursed caress, and a shield, shield bash generates over 400 aggro, the same as a normal taunt! Keep in mind that while they smothed out the mitigation across all armour pieces there is a huge increase to mitigation on shields as well. That gives you 3 solid taunts, and with the damage you can put out you should have no trouble holding aggro. Add your timebomb aggro of the pet... if you lose aggro in beta, you deserve to whine, because you just plain suck at life. </P> <P>Now what are the main complaints? Lack of HP? Again, like several people have pointed out, we may have lost what was it 1900hp? Well guardians lost more! And even better (for us) they can't stack all the hp buffs like they used to. No more 10K raid buffed guardians. So 300 hp is really going to make them that much better for MT situations? HP has nothing to do with it. Its the guardians skills that make them a better choice as MT. We can easily fill the role now (just as before) but its a lot easier for us as players to do it.</P> <P>I just wish people would be able to take the word of somebody being positive rather than point to all the negative things people imagine. And yes, saying that SOE better change something or we'll be at the bottom of the pile again IS whining.</P> <P>Theres no quick-guide-to-tanking at gamefaqs.com Any self-respecting shadowknight who has stuck it out this long and been able to make a name for himself or herself as a tank (like i have) should have no trouble figuring out how to tank without graphs and pie charts helping them. And yes, you'll be able to tank at raids just fine too. I don't have any screenshots to prove that you don't suck. You're just going to have to prove it yourself.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Lucky guardians didnt have to prove a thing =). I know alot of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ty guards, but no one cares, they just look at the class. there should be a law against classism <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. anyways, Its not as much burning all our power to hold agro, its mostly other group members needing to calm down. everyone tries to kill every single mob as fast as possible, especialy those mages. even guards lose agro to a crazy mage, it happens, and they end up burning all thier power to prevent that from happening too. There are alot of skilled Fighters out there, i say fighters because ive seen lots of different fighter subclasses tank just fine. however, everyone needs to learn to stop the button mashing on every skill they have. mages you can take agro, youve proven it, so give us a break now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. that said, I usually duo with an inquisitor against things up to 2 lvls higher than us, and we dont end up with empty power doing it, we skip right on to the next. We both take it calm, and i use auto attack and pet for most of my dps, taunt here and there la la its all easy. for some STRANGE REASON, you add a wizard or something to the duo and poof, out of power. Fighters fault? nooooo. All in all theres nothing wrong with these fighter subclasses, its all the crazy other people who cant calm down ><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> /flame on all the crazy folk!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Youre right about HP not meaning much in beta. Ive seen alot of posts about 'this is guard unbuffed and buffed, and here is bruiser unbuffed and buffed, now you see whos better?' Blah! all crap. they need to take those with them grouped together and buffed up. Im asuming people will attempt to put guards by themselves so theres no question as to who MT's. I can really see this happening with most guilds, including mine <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Thats just gonna end poorly, as there are good buffs other fighters bring to a group. Imagine grouping a SK with a guardian, then imagine the guardian says "This Shadowknight is Clearly a superior tank, so im going to help him be even more uberer than he already is", so he uses all his single concen buffs instead of offense or defense stace (is a possiblity). now thats alot of buffage for that higly superior SK to be MT. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I guess we'll have to see how things turn out /shrug.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><3 Aelissa <3</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kojiro 50th Shadowknight of Lucan D'Lere</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on <span class=date_text>09-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:17 PM</span>

[Giral]

<DIV>Sineri has a level 50 Sk so she doesn't need to take anybodies word on Sk's Period </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>alll we were tryin to do is Make the Player's that Don't know what we do and Don't know what are skills do more aware of How we Tank , Most don't have any clue </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the player base has been using Guards for 10 months so thats about as easy to change as people all excepting re-vamp with open arms lol </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry if we we're tryin to do something positive for Sk's by throwin up some info on a thread about MT's after re-vamp i guess we will just use the tried and true method that we have on live LoL we kick Buttocks 2 Bad the other 90 % of the player base don't have a clue LOL great philosophy </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yeah i am a great tank, im a great soloer,  but like a tree falling in the forest if theres nobody around does it really make a sound? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and why do we just have to wait and see how things turn out? why can't we go post up are life taps why can't we show some screenshots ? if it gets 50 more Sk's a place in a raid or even MT of small raids then we have accomplished something Alot of Sk's on Alot of servers have it real bad i think it's a huge Cop out not to try to do anything at all becuase of the Number crunchin Jag off's that are the ones that usually control most of the raid parties on most of the servers Which in turn results in alot of players hearing This class is gimped so is that one yada yada yada we just tryin to help our fellow Sk's sorry if we offended anybody i won't ask again </DIV>

[Sine]

<span><blockquote><hr>Xartan wrote:<div></div> <p>Sineri, you need hard cold proof that we're fine? You're taking the word of people who love to complain about how we suck, but then you won't take the word of somebody who says we're fine? Nobody writes on the boards about how we rock because guess what.. if you think we rock, then you won't feel the need to post a note about it.</p> <p>I'm not about to do all the crazy research some people have done on beta to show our current standings in the game. But - the fact is that you're trying to argue an impossible point.</p> <p>Guardians will always be the best MT class for a raid. The difference now is that SK and Paladin and even bruiser and monk CAN do the job, it just takes a different approach. And no - its not that much harder! The reason most people feel that SK "suck" are that we lose aggro so often - this will no longer be the case, I can GUARANTEE you that you will hold aggro just fine WITHOUT burning all your mana up. I'm not going to bother running tests to parse data and aggro benefits. I try not to bring a palm pilot with me in my inventory when I decide to grind out some exp. In my experiences on live and on beta there is a distinct difference between cycling HO after HO and laying out every single attack just to barely hold aggro over the rest of the group and just plain taunting now and again (with the correct stance on). Guess what, if you're tanking with a 2hs in your offensive stance and not taunting, you might lose aggro! it happens! If you want to tank and keep aggro you should be using cursed caress, and a shield, shield bash generates over 400 aggro, the same as a normal taunt! Keep in mind that while they smothed out the mitigation across all armour pieces there is a huge increase to mitigation on shields as well. That gives you 3 solid taunts, and with the damage you can put out you should have no trouble holding aggro. Add your timebomb aggro of the pet... if you lose aggro in beta, you deserve to whine, because you just plain suck at life. </p> <p>Now what are the main complaints? Lack of HP? Again, like several people have pointed out, we may have lost what was it 1900hp? Well guardians lost more! And even better (for us) they can't stack all the hp buffs like they used to. No more 10K raid buffed guardians. So 300 hp is really going to make them that much better for MT situations? HP has nothing to do with it. Its the guardians skills that make them a better choice as MT. We can easily fill the role now (just as before) but its a lot easier for us as players to do it.</p> <p>I just wish people would be able to take the word of somebody being positive rather than point to all the negative things people imagine. And yes, saying that SOE better change something or we'll be at the bottom of the pile again IS whining.</p> <p>Theres no quick-guide-to-tanking at gamefaqs.com Any self-respecting shadowknight who has stuck it out this long and been able to make a name for himself or herself as a tank (like i have) should have no trouble figuring out how to tank without graphs and pie charts helping them. And yes, you'll be able to tank at raids just fine too. I don't have any screenshots to prove that you don't suck. You're just going to have to prove it yourself.</p><hr></blockquote> Umm no.  Please reread the previous post about reading the entire thread before hitting the reply button.  What I would like is facts.  And then I, not you and not anybody else, will decided if I need to lobby SOE some more.  It is a lot easier to make changes in wet cement then after it is dried.  If you don't want to help the Live Sk community that is fine; its your prerogative.  But don't come in here and try to crap on reasonable requests for information from OTHER beta sks because YOU don't feel like helping.</span><div></div>

[vTenebr]

The spell list HAS been posted.  That's your information.  Stats you can't really judge because it's going to be different based on your gear <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I might have better stats than a barbarian of the same level, even though I'm ratonga.  You ARE getting information.  You ARE getting statements from most beta SK saying how the changes have affected us and been speaking positively. Just because you're not getting specific parses and lines of code doesn't mean people are holding out on info. :p <div></div>

[Sasaki Koji]

I think the point is, weve seen alot of Bruiser vs Guardian, Paladin VS guardian, Zerker Vs guardian etc. posts - including buffed stats and unbuffed stats, but none for Shadowknight Vs Guardian. Even if gear will be different, its still good to get a good picture of just any lvl60SK on beta's Stats. heck, mabey all of them can go the extra step and show what thier stats look like fully buffed in a group, since all theyve been showing is what they can do for themselvs, as if everyone is going to solo forever <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. <p>Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on <span class=date_text>09-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:48 PM</span>