SK and taunt?

[Nuvi]

<DIV>hey guys,this isnt a flame post in anyway im just looking for a few facts,ive teamed up with a few SKs lately and they all seem to complain about thier aggro when they loose it,they say that SKs get crap aggro skills/spells etc... is this true or is this only an excuse to not being able 2 play thier class?i was just wondering since ive taken over as MA cause of that when SKs have been 2-3 levels above me sometime,and again this isnt my opinion im just wondering if this is true,there are many players out there that dont really know 2 play thier class well,its still urleay in the game so ppl learn...im a level 23 berserker btw,was around level 20-21 when these episodes happen and the SKs like i said were 2-3 levels over me most of the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[wayfaerer]

SK can taunt fine. If they can't keep aggro it's either because they're doing something wrong, or someone in their group is doing stupid stuff to get aggro. (ie: wizards chain-nuking, clerics stacking debuffs).

[Trebla]

<DIV>SKs can <EM>keep</EM> aggro fine.  However, if they lose it (especially to a priest) it's very hard for them to regain it.  Maybe I'm crazy, but I generally find I have little to no trouble keeping aggro on 3 or more white cons (when duoing), but if I slack off and lose it, it generally takes a good long while to get it back.  AE taunt and one HO are usually sufficient, but in a group it may be tough to get that HO off.</DIV>

[Arlon]

I have noticed that when I attack first and use taunt/inflame/shout target stays attacking me... usually. But if for some reason there is a mage(or any caster) who's too eager to start the attack before I do, then it is quite hard to get that mob aggro to me, especially if I'm lower level. And in these cases Demonstration of Faith and Offering of Armament are very useful <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Nuvi]

<DIV>okis thanks,well i was just wondering since they kept blaming the problem on SOE that they didnt have any good taunt skills,thanks for replys <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV>

[Tyd]

<DIV>I am at the moment a lvl 25 SK. I find the points that we can't hold aggro valid.</DIV> <DIV>If i chaintaunt i have no problem keeping aggro from a solo mob with the 2 taunts i have (Inflame (adept1) and Decree of Decay (app1)). According the the beta skill-list we would get 1 or 2 more taunts at this level, but they removed them for some reason. I would also use the skill "Shout" if not for the fact that it also disabled "Decree of Decay" and i need to wait for both these taunts when i've used one. The same occurs with Inflame vs. Taunt.. Which means i have 4 but can only use 2.</DIV> <DIV>As someone mentioned, is long as i have aggro im fine, but if i loose it - i will have a real hard time getting it back. Say i loose aggro with 3 out of four mobs in an encounter. I keep the one im hurting/inflaming but the others run off. So i target one of the other 3 casts inflame, which wont work and quene "Decree of Decay". The one i inflamed targets me again, but the other two are unaffected by my "DoD" and with a 30sec recharge the cleric or whoever got their aggro is probably toast or has accumulated loads more of aggro from defensive spells before i can use it again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What i try to do to keep aggro - which wont always work - is this:</DIV> <DIV>1. Tell your group that you need to get aggro before they start chaincasting, tell em to be cool at the start.</DIV> <DIV>2. I often start pulling with "Grim Coil" since it ends up giving the target around 120 damage after 3 rds, and has great range. On the way to the group i use Decree of Decay and Inflame.</DIV> <DIV>3. When the encounter is all in melee with me i use "Cry of Conviction" to deal out some AE damage hoping no wandering monsters will get sucked in to the fight.</DIV> <DIV>4. Use "Demonstration of Faith" and "Faithful Swing" since both these have defensive properties (DoF: Ward, FS: small heal).</DIV> <DIV>5. Use the above mentioned spells/skills as often as possible</DIV> <DIV>==============================================</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yesterday i teamed up with a lvl 25 (same as i) Berserker. Since i had more AC and he had more Attack i became "main tank". Now to the funny part: Even though i chaintatunted and the berserker didnt even try - he ended up with the aggro every time... How bad is that?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im betting that the SKs have the hardest time holding aggro because: We get less taunts then anyone but the Pally, but i am pretty sure that the pally heals and such accumulates aggro like nothing else.</DIV> <DIV>Shadowknights really are 2ndary tanks, which i find wrong - We will become the unwanted member of groups unless this is adjusted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ohh and a final pointer: Don't use "Intervene"! Last night when intervening the above mentioned Berserker - i died before the clerics (or I) noticed it, fighting mobs doing 50-100 damage/attack tops. If i cant use Intervene, im not even a great 2ndary.. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My 2 cents.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Tydde on <span class=date_text>11-26-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:53 AM</span>

[Nuvi]

<DIV>problem with some berserkers is that they and that includes me use bloodlust for example which buffs us many times with berzerker,and its hard for other tanks 2 hold aggro then,i cant use bloodlust,blood rage most of the times when im not tanking my self,we get mad aggro,thats a good thing when we are tanking but not so good when not tanking since we have to tone down our DPS to let other classes keep the aggro :/</DIV>

[Tyd]

<DIV>So, they are TO good at what they do... **ZOMG** i envy you...</DIV>

[IBSomnifer]

lvl 24 SK here. We CAN hold great agro when the rest of the group does their job right. This means they shouldn't be chain nuking, spaming abilities, or taunting. I have had secondary tanks trying to taunt my mobs from me when i do the solo HO lol. The HO is not a open bid on the taunt skill when the horn comes up! lol Once you hit nek forest you will start having agro problems. Not because you are lacking..but because the other classes are "coming into their own". They are getting great damage spells/abilities/heals that they love to show off. Why nuke for 70-80 when i just got this shiny new 350 damage hit!!!! RAR! At this point they spam it and die. Most of them are also very excited about grouping in nek forest for the first time..and nuke too fast before i taunt once! I pull with grim coil, then zap with rightious anger, then DoD AoE taunt when all the mobs arive. This normally is all the taunting I need for the WHOLE fight. This is normally where the cleric who doesn't get to cast enough...starts debuffing like crazy, and spam healing for fun... They use their 2 or 3 low healing spells instead of their large single heal. In my opinion, the rest of the group needs to learn how to fight with you in the group. You should not have to spam taunt every mob, every 2 seconds. You can only taunt so much. You can only have so many hps, and AC before you can do no more.

[Zutan]

<DIV>The only problem with getting agro back if you lose it is that people dont do what they are supposed to do when they gain unwanted agro.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i.e. Scouts that keep attacking and spamming special attacks or Priests that run around or even heal themselves when they arent damaged that much yet. (even though they may be barely damaged it causes huge agro)</DIV>

[IBSomnifer]

Zutan I agree. They don't know what to do. This will come hopfully from either...the tank telling them what to do...or learning the hard way. The best thing to do is...STOP attacking, Stop casting, DON't run...because as we all know..mobs dont stop chasing you when you run lol. Nothing is funnier then seeing a caster running in circles like they are on fire lol. The funny part is..they think it gets them somewhere. It just takes the mob out of our range(so we can't hit for hate). The scout mentality it seems is...hit hit hit until its dead...I can out last...but they can't (most of the time).

[WuphonsReach]

I agree. If you have to use taunt more then once at the start of the fight (as in, chain-casting it throughout), then the group is broken and folks need to change how they're doing things.Taunt and shout should only be needed in exceptional situations where a mob peels off and chases down a healer maybe 1 in 5 fights. Otherwise, they won't be there when you do need them to work.

[Shadame]

In fallen gate I haven't had real problems holding agro, except when that idiot sorcerer keeps blasting AOE spells away without a second thought and then wonders why all 5 undead dark elves want to eat his soul. I have been serving as main tank, and I find that by just blowing all of my AOE abilities as soon as the fight starts and then telling the rest of the group to go at it works pretty well, because I have super hate from the group and I am able to use inflame to keep it one mob at a time as we whiddle our way through the mobs.

[vTenebr]

When people are using common sense, I can generally hold agro without much problem. Oft times I can even regain agro if something happens and the mob turns away. I lose agro when people are going haywire with the 'powernuking' and/or the 'chain heal'. If I am still in the green, there's no reason to keep healing. I still have another 800 hps to burn through :pI do wish that we could actually USE all the taunts we have. It's rather annoying that we're given *cough* 4 taunts, but can only really use 2.

[Anash]

<DIV>If you are pulling multi-mob groups you HAVE to use shout, don't rely on sickening decay or cry of conviction to ever hold aggro.Pull with grim coil, cast shout, hit DoF, hit inflame, stuns between HOs, if you still have more than one mob left cast shout again, even if the mob you are on is almost dead. This will keep aggro unless someone over nukes or something, but at least you know you are doing your best to keep aggro. I was pulling four yellow owlbears and keeping aggro doing this and it worked great. Hopefully we will get a new AE taunt but shout is your only option until then, only use decree on single pull mobs cause the only AoE it has is a lifetap shield and it doesn't taunt other mobs beside the one you have targeted.</DIV>

[IBSomnifer]

<blockquote><hr>Anash wrote:<DIV> Hopefully we will get a new AE taunt but shout is your only option until then, only use decree on single pull mobs cause the only AoE it has is a lifetap shield and it doesn't taunt other mobs beside the one you have targeted.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Decree of decay is a AoE taunt, it replaces shout. It IS AoE...trust me. IT does NOT have a life tap shield that, neither I nor anyone in my group has seen.

[Anash]

<DIV>Use this in a group and it will not taunt, believe me I tried cause I though it was. Just because it resets the shout timer doesn't mean it is a AoE taunt, I tried it the other night cause I thought it was a AoE taunt since I could see a graphic on all the creatures. I lost aggro to 3 of the 4 owlbears so next pull I used shout and it went smoothly again. If you examine the two spells shout clearly states all enemies, and decree only says increases hate plus lifetap proc.</DIV>

[EvilHarbing]

<DIV>A good thing that I have found that works is make your group wait for you to get agro before they charge in especially if you are pulling more than 1 mob at a time. I usually pull with Righteous anger or Grim Coil then wait for the mobs to get close and then use ae taunt then an ae damage if possible where I am sometimes not a good idea with other mobs near. I can then usually hold agro then use the ae taunt again when it recycles for good measure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for single pulls if an SK doesn't hold agro they suck plain simple or the caster or healer in the group sucks. Easy way to tell is if the mob always peels off the SK and hits the same person each time. As a lvl 22 SK I can easily pull agro off a lvl 24 guardian if I really need to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another skill or trick to do is use Graven Embrace on the person who keeps pulling agro off of tank. Though use caution with this as it will wipe any concentration buffs the person you cast it on has. If you cast it on a cleric all cleric buffs will be removed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Zutan]

<DIV>Decree of Decay has a single proc Lifetap.. its fairly worthless for the lifetap though.  At App1 it only heals 4 to 8 hit points and only procs once.  It is a good upgrade to Shout though, so I use it primarily for that reason.</DIV>

[WuphonsReach]

The hunting group I run with is developing the rule that the Crusader must be allowed to finish their HO before anyone else casts. Mostly because this gives the MA a few seconds to climb up the aggro ladder, but also because the Crusader's HO ends with a taunt.The Crusader pulls with their DD spell, then starts the HO and finishes it. Once everyone sees the HO complete, they can start in with their attacks or heals or whatever.

[Pertax37]

<DIV>Holding argo without a chanter:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Pull with a nuke</DIV> <DIV>2. HO and nuke, while it's inc</DIV> <DIV>3. Use shout</DIV> <DIV>4. Use AE magic spell</DIV> <DIV>5. Use AE melee</DIV> <DIV>6. Use taunt on main monster</DIV> <DIV>7. Use Stun (Has a taunt included in the skill)</DIV> <DIV>8. Go to step 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Holding argo with a chanter:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Pull with a nuke</DIV> <DIV>2. HO and nuke, whiles it's inc</DIV> <DIV>3. Use shout.</DIV> <DIV>4. Use Taunt.</DIV> <DIV>5. Use Stun (Has a taunt included in the skill)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ways to regain argo if for some reason it likes someone else:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Nuke the bejesus out of it.</DIV> <DIV>2. Use Rescue (Good but looooonnnng recast time)</DIV> <DIV>3. Use HT (Good but slow recast)</DIV> <DIV>4. Use FD on them (Method I prefer as I rarely lose argo)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing to remember when you are MT is that it is your job to tank, not to do incredible damage.  Just keep chain casting your taunts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Twizz]

<DIV>I'm reading this from a healer's view. In my experiance (grouped with a Crusader/SK alot, currently level 22) crusaders/SKs are the tanks who handles aggro the best. It is probebly depending on the players of the different classes but so far, I have no problem. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not sure what spells he is using, think some knockdown and shield bash.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tyd]

<DIV>To the people saying we need to use "Shout" as AE taunt: It is GREY - Grey means its a waste of time and power doesnt it?</DIV>

[_Baal_]

<DIV>this post should be a sticky in every forum and on the news site so that the rest of the classes know what to do and what not to do.</DIV> <DIV>this post has shed some light for me. i feel sooooo bad when some **ZOMG** does something dumb to pull aggro from me and i cant get it back. now the groups dead cuz some one jumped the gun or a number of other things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i played beta and this was a major problem then too. ppl went so far as to say that we were the worst tanks in the game. HA!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[WuphonsReach]

There is an upgrade to Shout at some point. Or you could upgrade from Appr1 Shout to Adept1 which would be 4 levels higher then Shout. Or get Adept3 version which is 6 levels above Shout Appr1.And some aggro is better then no aggro when it comes to multiple mobs. Even lowly Shout/Appr1.Someone had posted a chart explaining how Appr/Adept/Master fit in and what it did. My basic understanding is that a level 12 spell would cast as a level 14 spell if you had the Adept1 version... don't remember if you're level was used in the formula or not.

[Pertax37]

<DIV>Not true about shout being worthless if grey.  Even thought shout might be grey a taunt is a taunt and every bit helps.  Also you are going to want to keep your taunting spells upgraded.  Perhaps you are still using app 1 shout?</DIV>

[Baluka76]

<DIV>In my experiences, the only time I've been unable to keep aggro is with a Beserker, and it's not due to damage dealt, but their one buff proc, and I have no idea what it is. Soon as it's triggered, it's next to impossible to ever get it back(and I've taunted up to 10 times in a fight and used Rescue even, no effect). Soon as Zerker had to go...never had a problem. And I think I've grouped with every class out there by far. With me having about 400 more AC than the Zerker...well, I sure wanted to remain as main tank. Basically if I pull(which I do, having a horse and ranged attack spells, usually always am MT/Puller) and land that first taunt, that's all I ever have to do, with some 'maintenance taunts' tossed here and there to keep their attention away from the healers/casters. If I lose it, it's because someone buffed/warded or something as the pull is coming in, before my initial taunt. Once that lands, it's all over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, save for the Beserkers bugged proc of Hate-Doom(tm). No idea what that is, but _everytime_ it happens, and is quite noticable, and confirmed by many others, including rogues, who have the exact same problem with Beserkers. I don't even bother to keep taunting, but just slide into SA role and help the Beserker tank, since no matter how many Adept level inflames I throw at the mob or excessive damage it will NOT turn back to me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dunno really why it is that way...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Baluka, 27 Kerran SK, Neriak.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[IBSomnifer]

Baluka76...then give them the boot. Kick them out of the group. If they can't control their agro...they can't play well. Tell them to take their selfbuff proc OFF. They will get your group killed. Not your fault. Same goes for other classes. If you over taunt and DD...until you have no opwer after each fight...then something has to change. IF...you arn't keeping your spells updated...like addept taunts and DDs....then its most likely your fault after 20. Everyone should be upto date on at last those by now.

[Baluka76]

<DIV>Just pointing out what it is that triggers the un-attainable taunt from the Zerker, as they were a friend it was more a discovery/test rig, than anything that say would get our whole group killed. Not that Zerkers can't really tank, since I've seen it done, I just much more prefer throwing my tin-can butt at mobs for them to whale on, and let the Zerker do what he does best, which is pain-infliction. Just a heads up what the issue is. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pretty much just pull and open with Inflame...good as gold after that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jaggid]

<DIV>Any SK that believes we do not have enough taunt skills is doing some thing very very wrong, like not upgrading skills!  I have no problems getting agro, unless the an enchanter needs to mez something 3 or 4 times or the healer is having to go overboard, then it is a little harder to get it back.  But that is a bad situation anyway and something was done wrong to begin with. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Jaggid]

<DIV>The only time I have ever had an issue with not holding agro is when others do NOT do their job correctly, which seems to be what happens until I have to get nasty in group chat.</DIV>

[chaosang]

<DIV>ok, sorry boys to tell you that, but why you have any problems keeping aggro? im currebtly lvl19, at lvl 18 i grouped with 4casters and a healer, one of em a wizzy, we fought those lvl21 2 arrow mobs, and since those kill a poor lil crusader like me in 4 lucky hits, i expect evryone to nuke to full potential, and even 4 casters chain nuking and a healer chainhealing i have not even slight issues of keeping aggro with just shieldbash and inflame on a single mob. we also fought groups of mobs, and 4 casters assisting in such is just, well not effective, crap is shout is the only aoe taunt, *BEEB* it isnt! start of with shout, then do a call to arms followed by warding urself, and theres more ya can do in case its needed. im also playing a wizzy myself, and i once made an aggro race with an SK, my wizzy pulled, dotted 4x and started chain nuking, the SK started by the time i started my first nuke, and by the second he had aggro, we reapeted that with my wizzy stiffling inbeween and same outcome.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you guys have problems keeping aggro, upgrade ur skills, appIII is far enuf and easy to come by, and use buffs, aoe DDs, and such, if you need to have more then one mob taunted, if someone still gets aggro of you, cast a ward on him followed by an inflame.</DIV>

[WuphonsReach]

Wasn't there a zerk skill that SOE just toned down? Some special attack that was doing a huge chunk of damage? (Might've explained why you had trouble with a zerker in the group.)It's a good tip to ward yourself as the MA. It has a sizeable taunt factor all by itself.

[Anash]

<DIV>I was grouped with a beserker the other day 2 levels below me and he was pulling aggro off my constantly, was a real pain indeed, if he was a higher level I would of just made him MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Trixst]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tydde wrote:<BR> <DIV>As someone mentioned, is long as i have aggro im fine, but if i loose it - i will have a real hard time getting it back. Say i loose aggro with 3 out of four mobs in an encounter. I keep the one im hurting/inflaming but the others run off. So i target one of the other 3 casts inflame, which wont work and quene "Decree of Decay". The one i inflamed targets me again, but the other two are unaffected by my "DoD" and with a 30sec recharge the cleric or whoever got their aggro is probably toast or has accumulated loads more of aggro from defensive spells before i can use it again.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Something I've noticed with taunts:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-If you use a single target taunt (Taunt / Inflame) it seems to only affect the mob you are targetting.  Other mobs within the "group" encounter are unaffected.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-If you use an AoE Taunt (Shout / whatever upgrade after) it seems to only affect mobs that belong to that "group" encounter.  In other words, if you are in a group encounter and then a single mob attacks the group, the following could happen:</DIV> <OL> <LI>If you target the single mob and use AoE Taunt: Only the single mob will be affected and none of the "group" mobs wil be affected.</LI> <LI>If you target any of the "group" mobs and use AoE Taunt: All of the "group" mobs will be affected but the single added mob will be unaffected.</LI></OL> <P>So, this basically means that controlling aggro currently requires a bit of creativity in how / when to use the various taunts.  When pulling groups of mobs, I usually use my ranged attack to pull, then use shout to taunt, and follow it with my best AoE attack.  Once that's been done, I just taunt the specific target and use shout / AoE attacks to keep the other mobs on me.  Seems to work so far.</P>

[Trixst]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anash wrote:<BR> <DIV>I was grouped with a beserker the other day 2 levels below me and he was pulling aggro off my constantly, was a real pain indeed, if he was a higher level I would of just made him MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well, a berserker not acting as main tank usually ends up using a few extra offensive abilities (bloodlust / whatever) so that they do end up gaining a lot of aggro.  It just becomes a matter of finding the right combination of maximizing damage output while minimizing damage taken by anyone other than the main tank.  If anything, if your group is using HOs, try to be the one who always completes them.  If the 'zerker completes it, I believe he will gain a good portion of aggro.</DIV>

[WuphonsReach]

Or the zerker/scout/whatever should simply wait until the mob is half dead before going all out. That's much more effective with healing mobs who will start to cast heals on themselves once they get below half damage. Helps to put them down before they can get multiple heals off.When duoing with a scout, my guideline is that they need to let me start/finish my first HO (which ends in a taunt). Once they see the HO complete, they can do whatever they want and will rarely pull the mob off of me.

[Jagerbo]

<DIV>The description of "Assault" also indicates it increases aggro.  (Just be careful of wandering non-hostile Mobs)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use Shout (Adept 1), Assault, Shield Bash, and Taunt/Inflame without any problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the problem with most tanks is they try to do damage to the mobs...that's not our purpose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I do is cast DoF and spam my taunt attacks, switching from Mob to Mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my opinion the only job of a tank is to hold aggro.   DPS is for everyone else.  With that mindset I've never had much of a problem.  Just remember if you disagree that the only reason you lose aggro is because your other members are outdamaging/healing you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And in the rare cases where I've lost aggro...Taunt, Shout, then Shield Bash and it's back to good.  Has not failed yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(I am only lvl 17, but I've earned almost all of it working as tank)</DIV>

[Baluka76]

<DIV>The issue I was speaking of is in regards to Beserkers in specific. It's not their damage output, it's one Buff proc in particular that INSTANTLY(I usually saw the Zerker jumping and glowing, kind of like our Faithful Blow or whatever was at one time(I don't even use it), and INSTANTLY the aggro is to the Zerker, and it's stuck, no matter how many Adept I Inflames and Shouts/Damage I inflict upon the mob. Doesn't matter if I've laid about 6 taunts on it previously either. Instant aggro. This has been confirmed over and over by Assassins and others who have noticed it too. I don't know if it was something SoE recently patched/fixed or not, as I haven't paired with a Zerker since then to find out. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for damage infliction? We're not doing that shabby, by the by, I typically land 30-40's in melee hits constantly and with Adept upgraded spells and whatnot, (Righteous Anger for example, 60-90 DD(Adept I) and costs extremely little power and then translates into an HO for me). But as was stated, that's not our main goal...which is why we have the HP/AC(with updated gear and abilities) to surely hold our own easily and act as the tank. 90% of the time I'm the main tank, main puller. And that suits me just fine, and aggro control is easy to manage(without the Zerker thing - which I hope they ID'd and fixed). Just make sure to open with Inflame(for single target) or Cry/Shout for groups, get them close, and if one should happen to break off and start to whale on the Shammy/Mage/whatever, break off quickly, toss an Inflame, and get back to business. Not that difficult. Our spells compensate for A LOT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Baluka, 27th Kerran SK, Neriak.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[saw2814]

<DIV>I sure would not complain if the recast timer on Shout was lowered a little bit.  When I have a group of mobs I want to stay on me it seems like shout takes a week to refresh.  </DIV>

[Soulspa]

<DIV>A golden rule I use when in a group is I tell everyone to stay close to me especially if they get aggro, so I can use my shout to get aggro back, assualt or AoE call to arms to get aggro back.  If you are outside my vision range, you are outside my helping range.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This works great and I have no problems getting aggro back.  I prefer to be with the group as the main tank and let someone else pull, that way I can target the lead and plan the shout AoE as they run past me and I then gain all the aggro.  With everyone knowing if they get in trouble to run to me I will keep an eye on health and will work to pull aggro or as a last resort buff with DD so I can get the aggro back.</DIV>

[WuphonsReach]

<blockquote><hr>saw2814 wrote:<DIV>I sure would not complain if the recast timer on Shout was lowered a little bit. When I have a group of mobs I want to stay on me it seems like shout takes a week to refresh. </DIV><hr></blockquote>If you're having to spam your taunt or shout keys to maintain aggro, then the group as a whole is doing a poor job of aggro management and all need to rethink the battle plan.Save taunt and shout for dire cases only, don't get your group dependent on you spamming those skills to maintain aggro. Otherwise, when the bad stuff happens, you won't have anything to fall back upon to regain aggro.

[Anash]

<DIV>Really what else is a tank there for but to hold aggro and take hits, if you dont do your best to keep aggro you are not doing your main job, thats why spaming taunts is part of our job, even if you are not losing aggro you still need to keep you number one on the hate list.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Had a five person group last night fighting mobs around Nektropos last night, had a defiler, sk, bruiser, assassin, and coehercer and I very seldom lost aggro with the two DPS guys in the group.</DIV>

[WuphonsReach]

Aggro is never soley the tank's job. Except for back when SKs were slightly broken in EQ1 and could hold taunt with a level 9 DoT, I've never seen a case where a single class could hold taunt without the help of the group.People attacking too early is the fault of the early attacker, not the tank.People casting aggro-inducing spells prior to the tank getting control of the mob is the fault of the caster, not the tank.Folks who are not assisting on the tank's target, but beating on another mob in the group who then chases that person down? Again, that's the fault of the person who was not on the proper target.As a tank, there is only so much you can do to pull aggro in EQ2. And trying to race the other players in the group up the aggro chain is not the ideal way to go about it. There's a difference between playing smart and spamming taunt. A smart group helps the tank manage the aggro so that the tank doesn't *have* to spam their taunt key. That doesn't meant that the tank is just sitting there with auto-attack on, but there are other, more productive ways to stay at the top of the hate list.A smart group does this so that when things *do* go wrong (and they will), the tank has the ability to use a single taunt to pull the mob back over and have it beat on the tank again. A group that is forcing the tank to spam their taunt key removes that ability to react to bad situations. I was in a group in Zarvonn's valley last night. Me as an 18 crusader, 20 inquisitor, 3 wizards (17-20) and a rogue who was level 17 or 18. Very high DPS group, very easy to lose aggro if I try to compete soley on damage output.On the boss mob fight, I cast a *single* taunt at the beginning of the fight, and through vagaries of pathing and auto-turning, only realized that I wasn't able to see my target when the mob was about halfway dead. The only spell I had been casting was my ward spell (Demonstration of Faith) which has a bit of aggro. Never lost aggro, even though I wasn't hitting the mob.Why? Because the group had worked out aggro management on the previous two dozen pulls. They were used to me not spamming my taunt ability. They had figured out how much power they could dump and how soon they could dump it. When things went wrong, I was able to react and pull mobs off of them without breaking a sweat because they worked *with* me rather then racing to see who could kill the monster first.What was the secret? Nobody beats on the mob or casts an offensive spell until I finish my first and only HO, which ends with either the single-target or multi-target taunt. Once they see that wheel vanish, everyone lights up and starts beating the mob down. I take the hits, they do the damage, and the only time we had aggro issues was if someone did something before I finished the HO. All they had to do was be patient for 5 seconds before attacking.

[Anash]

<DIV>Im saying what is wrong with spamming taunt ? even if everyone in group has brains enough not to over nuke or heal or damage, your main role is to taunt. You shouldn't use anything else besides taunts, stuns and DoF, everything else is situational. I am not totally convenced a HO works like a taunt just because it ends with a taunt, If I use decree of decay to end crushing anvil or sky cleave it doesnt return health to me, the green skull graphic doesnt show up, so that makes me think when you use taunt to finish off a HO it turns it into the HO and its no longer a taunt. when you end sky cleave with shout does it become a AoE HO ? nope, so why do you think a HO ending in a taunt actually does what the skill was originally used for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aggro holding gets harder the higher the level you are, owlbears are crazy to keep aggro sometimes, like I said eveything is situational but for the most part we need to keep taunting not because people are doing dumb things, because its our job as a tank to keep as much aggro as possible. Use shout or decree of decay so you will have a inflame up if you need, but even so inflame has a 8 sec recast so it comes back fast enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Save your power for DoFs and taunts, enough said <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Anash on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:35 PM</span>

[Twizz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Anash wrote:<BR> <DIV>Im saying what is wrong with spamming taunt ? even if everyone in group has brains enough not to over nuke or heal or damage, your main role is to taunt. You shouldn't use anything else besides taunts, stuns and DoF, everything else is situational. I am not totally convenced a HO works like a taunt just because it ends with a taunt, If I use decree of decay to end crushing anvil or sky cleave it doesnt return health to me, the green skull graphic doesnt show up, so that makes me think when you use taunt to finish off a HO it turns it into the HO and its no longer a taunt. when you end sky cleave with shout does it become a AoE HO ? nope, so why do you think a HO ending in a taunt actually does what the skill was originally used for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aggro holding gets harder the higher the level you are, owlbears are crazy to keep aggro sometimes, like I said eveything is situational but for the most part we need to keep taunting not because people are doing dumb things, because its our job as a tank to keep as much aggro as possible. Use shout or decree of decay so you will have a inflame up if you need, but even so inflame has a 8 sec recast so it comes back fast enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Save your power for DoFs and taunts, enough said <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Anash on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:35 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It's wrong spamming whatever ability spell cause it breaks things like HOs. Save your power for when you need it. 6 secs (or whetever the reuse time is) can be a long time sometimes. You have alot of time to use other spells (that also generates aggro) during a fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mindless spamming = bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not a tank myself, jsut looking at how I see people play and things that seem to work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So far, I've not had a problem with SKs holding aggro off me (even with 4-6 whites engaged). I get hit sometimes but not for long. One thing that changes this is if I cast a spell on pull that lands before the SK does his first aggro spell/skill. Then I may end up using a deaggro spell to avoid aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[WuphonsReach]

I'll give this one more shot.The core reasons not to spam taunt or any other abilty:1) It makes HO chains impossible to do (as Twizz said).2) Spamming taunt turns it into a weakness for the group. Sure, it allows people to be spam their skills and kill mobs faster. But the first time that something goes wrong, you will be completely unable to affect events because you've left yourself zero maneuvering room.If you save taunt and your other aggro spells for when things go wrong, they will be much more effective and you'll find that they work much better. Especially if you train the group to always stay below you on the aggro ladder. (And the only way to train the group to stay below you on the aggro meter is through repeated fights where you aren't spending all of your power desperately trying to hold on to the #1 position.)Basically, it's a play smarter not harder philosophy.