SK and taunt?

[Nuvi]

hey guys,this isnt a flame post in anyway im just looking for a few facts,ive teamed up with a few SKs lately and they all seem to complain about thier aggro when they loose it,they say that SKs get crap aggro skills/spells etc... is this true or is this only an excuse to not being able 2 play thier class?i was just wondering since ive taken over as MA cause of that when SKs have been 2-3 levels above me sometime,and again this isnt my opinion im just wondering if this is true,there are many players out there that dont really know 2 play thier class well,its still urleay in the game so ppl learn...im a level 23 berserker btw,was around level 20-21 when these episodes happen and the SKs like i said were 2-3 levels over me most of the time.

 

[wayfaerer]

SK can taunt fine. If they can't keep aggro it's either because they're doing something wrong, or someone in their group is doing stupid stuff to get aggro. (ie: wizards chain-nuking, clerics stacking debuffs).

[Trebla]

SKs can keep aggro fine.  However, if they lose it (especially to a priest) it's very hard for them to regain it.  Maybe I'm crazy, but I generally find I have little to no trouble keeping aggro on 3 or more white cons (when duoing), but if I slack off and lose it, it generally takes a good long while to get it back.  AE taunt and one HO are usually sufficient, but in a group it may be tough to get that HO off.

[Arlon]

I have noticed that when I attack first and use taunt/inflame/shout target stays attacking me... usually. But if for some reason there is a mage(or any caster) who's too eager to start the attack before I do, then it is quite hard to get that mob aggro to me, especially if I'm lower level. And in these cases Demonstration of Faith and Offering of Armament are very useful

[Nuvi]

okis thanks,well i was just wondering since they kept blaming the problem on SOE that they didnt have any good taunt skills,thanks for replys

[Tyd]

I am at the moment a lvl 25 SK. I find the points that we can't hold aggro valid.

If i chaintaunt i have no problem keeping aggro from a solo mob with the 2 taunts i have (Inflame (adept1) and Decree of Decay (app1)). According the the beta skill-list we would get 1 or 2 more taunts at this level, but they removed them for some reason. I would also use the skill "Shout" if not for the fact that it also disabled "Decree of Decay" and i need to wait for both these taunts when i've used one. The same occurs with Inflame vs. Taunt.. Which means i have 4 but can only use 2.

As someone mentioned, is long as i have aggro im fine, but if i loose it - i will have a real hard time getting it back. Say i loose aggro with 3 out of four mobs in an encounter. I keep the one im hurting/inflaming but the others run off. So i target one of the other 3 casts inflame, which wont work and quene "Decree of Decay". The one i inflamed targets me again, but the other two are unaffected by my "DoD" and with a 30sec recharge the cleric or whoever got their aggro is probably toast or has accumulated loads more of aggro from defensive spells before i can use it again.

 

What i try to do to keep aggro - which wont always work - is this:

1. Tell your group that you need to get aggro before they start chaincasting, tell em to be cool at the start.

2. I often start pulling with "Grim Coil" since it ends up giving the target around 120 damage after 3 rds, and has great range. On the way to the group i use Decree of Decay and Inflame.

3. When the encounter is all in melee with me i use "Cry of Conviction" to deal out some AE damage hoping no wandering monsters will get sucked in to the fight.

4. Use "Demonstration of Faith" and "Faithful Swing" since both these have defensive properties (DoF: Ward, FS: small heal).

5. Use the above mentioned spells/skills as often as possible

==============================================

 

Yesterday i teamed up with a lvl 25 (same as i) Berserker. Since i had more AC and he had more Attack i became "main tank". Now to the funny part: Even though i chaintatunted and the berserker didnt even try - he ended up with the aggro every time... How bad is that?

 

Im betting that the SKs have the hardest time holding aggro because: We get less taunts then anyone but the Pally, but i am pretty sure that the pally heals and such accumulates aggro like nothing else.

Shadowknights really are 2ndary tanks, which i find wrong - We will become the unwanted member of groups unless this is adjusted.

 

Ohh and a final pointer: Don't use "Intervene"! Last night when intervening the above mentioned Berserker - i died before the clerics (or I) noticed it, fighting mobs doing 50-100 damage/attack tops. If i cant use Intervene, im not even a great 2ndary..

 

My 2 cents.

 

Message Edited by Tydde on 11-26-2004 04:53 AM

[Nuvi]

problem with some berserkers is that they and that includes me use bloodlust for example which buffs us many times with berzerker,and its hard for other tanks 2 hold aggro then,i cant use bloodlust,blood rage most of the times when im not tanking my self,we get mad aggro,thats a good thing when we are tanking but not so good when not tanking since we have to tone down our DPS to let other classes keep the aggro :/

[Tyd]

So, they are TO good at what they do... **ZOMG** i envy you...

[IBSomnifer]

lvl 24 SK here. We CAN hold great agro when the rest of the group does their job right. This means they shouldn't be chain nuking, spaming abilities, or taunting. I have had secondary tanks trying to taunt my mobs from me when i do the solo HO lol. The HO is not a open bid on the taunt skill when the horn comes up! lol Once you hit nek forest you will start having agro problems. Not because you are lacking..but because the other classes are "coming into their own". They are getting great damage spells/abilities/heals that they love to show off. Why nuke for 70-80 when i just got this shiny new 350 damage hit!!!! RAR! At this point they spam it and die. Most of them are also very excited about grouping in nek forest for the first time..and nuke too fast before i taunt once! I pull with grim coil, then zap with rightious anger, then DoD AoE taunt when all the mobs arive. This normally is all the taunting I need for the WHOLE fight. This is normally where the cleric who doesn't get to cast enough...starts debuffing like crazy, and spam healing for fun... They use their 2 or 3 low healing spells instead of their large single heal. In my opinion, the rest of the group needs to learn how to fight with you in the group. You should not have to spam taunt every mob, every 2 seconds. You can only taunt so much. You can only have so many hps, and AC before you can do no more.

[Zutan]

The only problem with getting agro back if you lose it is that people dont do what they are supposed to do when they gain unwanted agro. 

 

i.e. Scouts that keep attacking and spamming special attacks or Priests that run around or even heal themselves when they arent damaged that much yet. (even though they may be barely damaged it causes huge agro)

[IBSomnifer]

Zutan I agree. They don't know what to do. This will come hopfully from either...the tank telling them what to do...or learning the hard way. The best thing to do is...STOP attacking, Stop casting, DON't run...because as we all know..mobs dont stop chasing you when you run lol. Nothing is funnier then seeing a caster running in circles like they are on fire lol. The funny part is..they think it gets them somewhere. It just takes the mob out of our range(so we can't hit for hate). The scout mentality it seems is...hit hit hit until its dead...I can out last...but they can't (most of the time).

[WuphonsReach]

I agree. If you have to use taunt more then once at the start of the fight (as in, chain-casting it throughout), then the group is broken and folks need to change how they're doing things.Taunt and shout should only be needed in exceptional situations where a mob peels off and chases down a healer maybe 1 in 5 fights. Otherwise, they won't be there when you do need them to work.

[Shadame]

In fallen gate I haven't had real problems holding agro, except when that idiot sorcerer keeps blasting AOE spells away without a second thought and then wonders why all 5 undead dark elves want to eat his soul. I have been serving as main tank, and I find that by just blowing all of my AOE abilities as soon as the fight starts and then telling the rest of the group to go at it works pretty well, because I have super hate from the group and I am able to use inflame to keep it one mob at a time as we whiddle our way through the mobs.

[vTenebr]

When people are using common sense, I can generally hold agro without much problem. Oft times I can even regain agro if something happens and the mob turns away. I lose agro when people are going haywire with the 'powernuking' and/or the 'chain heal'. If I am still in the green, there's no reason to keep healing. I still have another 800 hps to burn through :pI do wish that we could actually USE all the taunts we have. It's rather annoying that we're given *cough* 4 taunts, but can only really use 2.

[Anash]

If you are pulling multi-mob groups you HAVE to use shout, don't rely on sickening decay or cry of conviction to ever hold aggro.Pull with grim coil, cast shout, hit DoF, hit inflame, stuns between HOs, if you still have more than one mob left cast shout again, even if the mob you are on is almost dead. This will keep aggro unless someone over nukes or something, but at least you know you are doing your best to keep aggro. I was pulling four yellow owlbears and keeping aggro doing this and it worked great. Hopefully we will get a new AE taunt but shout is your only option until then, only use decree on single pull mobs cause the only AoE it has is a lifetap shield and it doesn't taunt other mobs beside the one you have targeted.

[IBSomnifer]

---

Anash wrote:

Hopefully we will get a new AE taunt but shout is your only option until then, only use decree on single pull mobs cause the only AoE it has is a lifetap shield and it doesn't taunt other mobs beside the one you have targeted.

---

Decree of decay is a AoE taunt, it replaces shout. It IS AoE...trust me. IT does NOT have a life tap shield that, neither I nor anyone in my group has seen.

[Anash]

Use this in a group and it will not taunt, believe me I tried cause I though it was. Just because it resets the shout timer doesn't mean it is a AoE taunt, I tried it the other night cause I thought it was a AoE taunt since I could see a graphic on all the creatures. I lost aggro to 3 of the 4 owlbears so next pull I used shout and it went smoothly again. If you examine the two spells shout clearly states all enemies, and decree only says increases hate plus lifetap proc.

[EvilHarbing]

A good thing that I have found that works is make your group wait for you to get agro before they charge in especially if you are pulling more than 1 mob at a time. I usually pull with Righteous anger or Grim Coil then wait for the mobs to get close and then use ae taunt then an ae damage if possible where I am sometimes not a good idea with other mobs near. I can then usually hold agro then use the ae taunt again when it recycles for good measure.

 

As for single pulls if an SK doesn't hold agro they suck plain simple or the caster or healer in the group sucks. Easy way to tell is if the mob always peels off the SK and hits the same person each time. As a lvl 22 SK I can easily pull agro off a lvl 24 guardian if I really need to.

 

Another skill or trick to do is use Graven Embrace on the person who keeps pulling agro off of tank. Though use caution with this as it will wipe any concentration buffs the person you cast it on has. If you cast it on a cleric all cleric buffs will be removed.

 

 

[Zutan]

Decree of Decay has a single proc Lifetap.. its fairly worthless for the lifetap though.  At App1 it only heals 4 to 8 hit points and only procs once.  It is a good upgrade to Shout though, so I use it primarily for that reason.

[WuphonsReach]

The hunting group I run with is developing the rule that the Crusader must be allowed to finish their HO before anyone else casts. Mostly because this gives the MA a few seconds to climb up the aggro ladder, but also because the Crusader's HO ends with a taunt.The Crusader pulls with their DD spell, then starts the HO and finishes it. Once everyone sees the HO complete, they can start in with their attacks or heals or whatever.

[Pertax37]

Holding argo without a chanter:

 

1. Pull with a nuke

2. HO and nuke, while it's inc

3. Use shout

4. Use AE magic spell

5. Use AE melee

6. Use taunt on main monster

7. Use Stun (Has a taunt included in the skill)

8. Go to step 3.

 

Holding argo with a chanter:

 

1. Pull with a nuke

2. HO and nuke, whiles it's inc

3. Use shout.

4. Use Taunt.

5. Use Stun (Has a taunt included in the skill)

 

Ways to regain argo if for some reason it likes someone else:

 

1. Nuke the bejesus out of it.

2. Use Rescue (Good but looooonnnng recast time)

3. Use HT (Good but slow recast)

4. Use FD on them (Method I prefer as I rarely lose argo)

 

The thing to remember when you are MT is that it is your job to tank, not to do incredible damage.  Just keep chain casting your taunts.

 

 

[Twizz]

I'm reading this from a healer's view. In my experiance (grouped with a Crusader/SK alot, currently level 22) crusaders/SKs are the tanks who handles aggro the best. It is probebly depending on the players of the different classes but so far, I have no problem.

 

Not sure what spells he is using, think some knockdown and shield bash.

 

[Tyd]

To the people saying we need to use "Shout" as AE taunt: It is GREY - Grey means its a waste of time and power doesnt it?

[_Baal_]

this post should be a sticky in every forum and on the news site so that the rest of the classes know what to do and what not to do.

this post has shed some light for me. i feel sooooo bad when some **ZOMG** does something dumb to pull aggro from me and i cant get it back. now the groups dead cuz some one jumped the gun or a number of other things.

 

i played beta and this was a major problem then too. ppl went so far as to say that we were the worst tanks in the game. HA!

 

 

[WuphonsReach]

There is an upgrade to Shout at some point. Or you could upgrade from Appr1 Shout to Adept1 which would be 4 levels higher then Shout. Or get Adept3 version which is 6 levels above Shout Appr1.And some aggro is better then no aggro when it comes to multiple mobs. Even lowly Shout/Appr1.Someone had posted a chart explaining how Appr/Adept/Master fit in and what it did. My basic understanding is that a level 12 spell would cast as a level 14 spell if you had the Adept1 version... don't remember if you're level was used in the formula or not.

[Pertax37]

Not true about shout being worthless if grey.  Even thought shout might be grey a taunt is a taunt and every bit helps.  Also you are going to want to keep your taunting spells upgraded.  Perhaps you are still using app 1 shout?

[Baluka76]

In my experiences, the only time I've been unable to keep aggro is with a Beserker, and it's not due to damage dealt, but their one buff proc, and I have no idea what it is. Soon as it's triggered, it's next to impossible to ever get it back(and I've taunted up to 10 times in a fight and used Rescue even, no effect). Soon as Zerker had to go...never had a problem. And I think I've grouped with every class out there by far. With me having about 400 more AC than the Zerker...well, I sure wanted to remain as main tank. Basically if I pull(which I do, having a horse and ranged attack spells, usually always am MT/Puller) and land that first taunt, that's all I ever have to do, with some 'maintenance taunts' tossed here and there to keep their attention away from the healers/casters. If I lose it, it's because someone buffed/warded or something as the pull is coming in, before my initial taunt. Once that lands, it's all over.

 

Well, save for the Beserkers bugged proc of Hate-Doom(tm). No idea what that is, but _everytime_ it happens, and is quite noticable, and confirmed by many others, including rogues, who have the exact same problem with Beserkers. I don't even bother to keep taunting, but just slide into SA role and help the Beserker tank, since no matter how many Adept level inflames I throw at the mob or excessive damage it will NOT turn back to me.

 

Dunno really why it is that way...

 

Baluka, 27 Kerran SK, Neriak.

 

 

 

 

[IBSomnifer]

Baluka76...then give them the boot. Kick them out of the group. If they can't control their agro...they can't play well. Tell them to take their selfbuff proc OFF. They will get your group killed. Not your fault. Same goes for other classes. If you over taunt and DD...until you have no opwer after each fight...then something has to change. IF...you arn't keeping your spells updated...like addept taunts and DDs....then its most likely your fault after 20. Everyone should be upto date on at last those by now.

[Baluka76]

Just pointing out what it is that triggers the un-attainable taunt from the Zerker, as they were a friend it was more a discovery/test rig, than anything that say would get our whole group killed. Not that Zerkers can't really tank, since I've seen it done, I just much more prefer throwing my tin-can butt at mobs for them to whale on, and let the Zerker do what he does best, which is pain-infliction. Just a heads up what the issue is.

 

Pretty much just pull and open with Inflame...good as gold after that.

 

 

[Jaggid]

Any SK that believes we do not have enough taunt skills is doing some thing very very wrong, like not upgrading skills!  I have no problems getting agro, unless the an enchanter needs to mez something 3 or 4 times or the healer is having to go overboard, then it is a little harder to get it back.  But that is a bad situation anyway and something was done wrong to begin with.