I did a test last night with a friend of mine who is a lvl 35 Mystic and with a lvl 38 Guardian.

[NeVeRLi]

I'm a lvl 38 Monk with the best equipment money can buy, I have all adept 1 or III and 3 masters and use Sweeping Crane stance.I can post screen shots are give more info on my equipment if need be.Ok the test was simple me and my friend the mystic went and fought the lvl 35^^ great briarpaw bears in EL. The results was they knocked the living [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] out of me, and I killed them fast. These bears hit me very hard and the repost was almost always nasty unless they went out of power. I killed them very fast considering it was just me and the mystic.Ok the next step involved my friend the mystic getting a guardian to group with him and then go fight the same bears. The guardian had good equipment, not the best and the jewelry was really sub par. The results was stunning... the guardian just did not get hit!! The guardian barely ever went into the yellow with his hit points, he did take a long time to kill the bear. When the guardian did get hit he took less damage than me almost half the damage or more (example if I took 400 dmg he was taking 200 dmg or less from the same hit). Ok ignoring the fact he took less damage each hit... he just flat out did not get hit period! The bears are blue ^^ to both him and me. Fact is monks deflection is broken and not working right and SoE thinks more mitigation for light armor is the answer! WRONG!!! His AC was 5600+ and mines right at 4900+ and with my buffs I'm 5400 almost. My buff's run out fast and use power to keep them going.I need my power to use my special attacks so I can kill the monster fast (and I do great dps and kill stuff fast). Ok so this is not enough of a test for you? (I have grouped with berserkers and guardians in runnyeye for hours on end and saw first hand how good their armor helps them and the fact that with their higher AC ??? they just flat out dont get hit.So we did another test, we went to the condemed catacombs and fought the ancient watcher lvl 33^^^ x2. The results speak for themself.Me took around 800 dmg per regular crushing hit from the ancient watcher and its special was hitting me for over 2000 dmg (record high dmg being 2882)The wizard lvl 38 and the best equipment he can have for his lvl was taking 1,700 dmg per regular crushing hit. Needless to say he was dead in 1 or 2 hits.The guardian was taking 400 dmg or less per regular crushing hit. And he was not getting hit as much as I did ( I guess the extra 600+ AC he has over me just makes him not get hit).Ok so the fact is the guardian can pretty much solo the lvl 35^^ bears in EL almost and at lvl 39 now can solo them and not ever go below 90% hp. While me on the other hand at lvl 39 can also now solo the bears but my health is lucky to stay over 75% and can go under 50% in the blink of an eye thanks to the lucky dmg spikes we take. (play a monk and you know first hand what I'm talking about and how fast we can go into the red). At lvl 39 the bears are green to us now.Our deflection is not working as intended and dual welding or using fast delay weapons or spamming your specials with no thoughts or tactics will get you reposted so much and so fast you will die from it. I'm stunned as to why a person wearing heavy bulking armor is getting hit less than a monk who has alot higher agility and only 600 or so less AC. Guess we are just dps for now.I love playing a monk and feel even though we get hit more and take more dmg we are a good class... but its just not right for a agile light armor wearing monk to get hit more and to boot take over double the damage. I also wanna ask you what changed so much from me going from lvl 38 to getting my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] kicked by this bear??? To me being lvl 39 and now kicking its [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]... still taking some very hard hits not uncommon to see 800 crushing dmg from these things.PS: this is just a small test that me and some friends did and some of my opinion based on how I feel about monks and our broken deflection.Thanks and hope SoE can fix this issue.<p>Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on <span class=date_text>03-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:09 AM</span>

[xrippe]

<DIV>This is an old topic, Gaurdians should tank better.  All their skills are geared for ac and taunting.  They have better mitigation.  They are Sony's mile stone for calibrating all fighter types.  If we keep beating this horse Sony will make us tank just as good and do the same damage.. wich is not impressive...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One starred for my oppinion and game experiance lol.. here let me change it around so I "fit in"  yeah  we are so broken, we suck hardcore.  Screw Sony...</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by xripperx on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:46 AM</span>

[Tay]

Just a word of advice, you may wish to rephrase your post somewhat.You said:"The results was stunning... the guardian just did not get hit!! The guardian barely ever went into the yellow with his hit points, he did take a long time to kill the bear. When the guardian did get hit he took less damage than me almost half the damage or more (example if I took 400 dmg he was taking 200 dmg or less from the same hit). Ok ignoring the fact he took less damage each hit... he just flat out did not get hit period! The bears are blue ^^ to both him and me."One min you say he never went into the yellow and seemed to take less dmg each hit, then you go on to say he never got hit....something doesnt ring true here.If I were a SOE person I wouldnt pay much attention to this tbh...a rephrasing of a few bits and your sorted.

[RadricTyc]

<DIV>post logs.</DIV>

[NeVeRLi]

Well when AC beats outs high agility and our deflection then I consider it broke and better mitigation for our light armor is not the fix.And yes my wording is a little crazy but the fact remains he gets hit less.A guardian at 39 with all feysteel armor and good jewelry will have somewhere around 5400-5800 AC and a monk with the best armor good jewelery will have around 4900-5300 AC give or take... and with the monks deflection and agility being broken we get hit more and miss more. A monk should not get hit more! The fact we take more damage is fine but getting hit more cause SoE nerfed our agility and deflection is not right! And whats changing so much from lvl 38 to 39 thats making it allow me to solo the lvl 35^^ great bears in EL?[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] just fix it SoE!

[NeVeRLi]

And while your at it fix it so monsters dont use scout/assassin/ranger attacks when their not stealthed or in behind of you. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:12 AM</span>

[Inv]

<DIV align=left>All I know atm is We take a good bit worse then plate tanks over all. ( in reference to healing needed)  Now I am not saying we can't tank before I get trolled to death <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   at 46 I tank a bit less l in healing aspects to a friend who is 43 plate tank.  Its mainly then skill hits that seem to bypass my defenses rather easily.  The giving mobs large hits and making their normal hits is annoying as all ya do is watch for spikes and hope to not eat a few at once.   The mitigation helped so we can tank better but now I see tons healers and Medium armor people strapping on light gear for stats and not a huge loss of AC lol and its was hard enough to find a 40+ light drop!    It seems alot that tank well are working Agi way up with buffs to tank on par. Its depressing that we have to abuse a system to pull the same level of tanking.  For now if I focus and time my skills right I dps which I enjoy as a monk.  I enjoying Dpsing and 2nd tanking. I do worry as I tank but for now its not to bad.  I pretty much only get invites to tank mobs blue of maybe even lol yellow and up no one wants a brawler it seems.  Well as it is I have no clue where to go I don't want to lose our dps skills as I have seen a SK pull close to same dps while main tanking LOL   But as it is now its liveable just wish that skill attacks were brought in line!!!!  Spell avoidance doesn't work either as far as I am concerned . heck look at the drops I see plate drops 90% of the time I swear lol.   Well I am still 50/50 but its liveable <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  The annoying things is watching plates run over green^^ and such and not even be phased where I am usally runnig for my life.  And yes My avoidance is about identical to all the plates I grp with and that is where the tanking gap is it seems.  Well we shall see what the future holds <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Victor_Hugo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NeVeRLiFt wrote:<BR>And while your at it fix it so monsters dont use scout/assassin/ranger attacks when their not stealthed or in behind of you. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Amen.</DIV>

[Ala]

<DIV>I agree, we do not tank as well as Guardians and I think we should (based on SOE's comments that all fighter classes were designed to tank equally well).  But we are not bad tanks either.  I was tanking in a group yesterday (I'm a lvl 36 Monk) and I did just fine taking on lvl 40 and 41 ^ ^ mobs and their friends. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can be patient waiting for balance and I do think we take more damage than we should with con orange/ red mobs.  But for lower level mobs (that con green^^/ blue^^) we are choice tanks for healers that know better. They will use very little mana healing while a Guardian will take damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find my most difficult part of the game is not game mechanics at all, its simply convincing other players that we are tanks, even other Monks I play with think I'm crazy to suggest we are tanks.</DIV>

[RadricTyc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alarr wrote:<BR> <DIV>I agree, we do not tank as well as Guardians and I think we should (based on SOE's comments that all fighter classes were designed to tank equally well).  But we are not bad tanks either.  I was tanking in a group yesterday (I'm a lvl 36 Monk) and I did just fine taking on lvl 40 and 41 ^ ^ mobs and their friends. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can be patient waiting for balance and I do think we take more damage than we should with con orange/ red mobs.  But for lower level mobs (that con green^^/ blue^^) we are choice tanks for healers that know better. They will use very little mana healing while a Guardian will take damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find my most difficult part of the game is not game mechanics at all, its simply convincing other players that we are tanks, even other Monks I play with think I'm crazy to suggest we are tanks.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If guardians are avoiding as much or more than we, then they will tank the blue and green cons equally well -- that is to say, they won't get hit by them either.  Besides, when was the last time anyone ever worried about who could or couldn't tank a green or blue mob?</P> <P>FamilyManFirst has proved that deflection is not a 360 degree protection skill, so it is starting to look like it is the block enhancement that we suspected all along.  Since Guardians get parry and defense buffs, and since they can use tower shields with 806 shield factor (maybe higher I don't know), I can't imagine that our deflection is doing any better for us than that.  </P> <P>If Guardians get more HPs, more mitigation, and the same amount of avoidance (if not more), then they are the preferred choice for a tank hands down, without a doubt.  If there is always only one choice for a tank, a tank that will suit all healers and all groups regardless of their make-up, then why have 5 other fighter sub-classes?</P> <P>We are tanks, there is no arguing that.  We have taunting skills, defensive skills, damage absorption skills, and we can avoid some damage.  But given a choice between a guardian, or even a berserker, who would choose us?</P> <P>Whatever happened to "equal but different"?<BR></P>

[Xanus]

The answer is so simple and you guys are going to be way PO'd when I explain what's going on here.1)Why are guardian's avoiding better than you?Answer: DEFENSE SKILL. It has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with their AC. It's about their defense skill rating. Guardians can increase their defense skill via their buffs much higher than a Monk can via his buffs. Defense skill is the PRIMARY stat used in determining hit/miss of mobs. The game always checks this stat first. If the mob beats this stat the game then does a check of AC value to determine how hard the hit will be against you. That's when the lesser damage that a guard takes comes into play.This oversight on sony's part has created an uneven shift. Guardians not only can absorb damage better which they should, but they get the best of both worlds in ALSO being able to avoid better.It's a game balance issue that could easily be addressed by removing all of their stackable defense skill increasing buffs and instead replacing them with AC buffs. I hope this will dispell alot of error going on where I've seen monks try to figure out why the guards are avoiding better than you are.If you want to see what I'm talking about just have the guard in question in your test remove his DEFENSE SKILL increasing buffs and he will start getting smoked!Later when you guys get the Spider stance, you'll see you're tanking ability improve by leaps and bounds because it adds I think 15 to defense skill. It still doesn't match how high a Guard can pump his but it's a little better.<p>Message Edited by Xanusus on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:57 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xanusus wrote:<BR>The answer is so simple and you guys are going to be way PO'd when I explain what's going on here.<BR><BR>1)Why are guardian's avoiding better than you?<BR><BR>Answer: DEFENSE SKILL. It has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with their AC. It's about their defense skill rating. Guardians can increase their defense skill via their buffs much higher than a Monk can via his buffs. Defense skill is the PRIMARY stat used in determining hit/miss of mobs. The game always checks this stat first. If the mob beats this stat the game then does a check of AC value to determine how hard the hit will be against you. That's when the lesser damage that guards take comes into play.<BR><BR>This oversight on sony's part has created an uneven shift. Guardians not only can absord damage better which they should, but they get the best of both worlds in ALSO being able to avoid better.<BR><BR>It's a game balance issue that could easily be addressed by removing all of their stackable defense skill increasing buffs and instead replacing them with AC buffs. I hope this will dispell alot of error going on where I've seen monks try to figure out why the guards are avoiding better than you are.<BR><BR>If you want to see what I'm talking about just have the guard in question in your test remove his DEFENSE SKILL increasing buffs and he will start getting smoked!<BR><BR>Later when you guys get the Spider stance, you'll see you're tanking ability inprove by leaps and bounds because it adds I think 15 to defense skill. It still doesn't match how high a Guard can pump his but it's a little better.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Great point and post.  I agree that the guardian defensive buffs should be moved into AC buffs, so that they are utilizing their mitigation and not all defensive skills.<BR>

[Jenj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NeVeRLiFt wrote:<BR>I'm a lvl 38 Monk with the best equipment money can buy, I have all adept 1 or III and 3 masters and use Sweeping Crane stance.<BR>I can post screen shots are give more info on my equipment if need be.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You might want to try tanking with Brawler's Stance vs Sweeping Crane. Everytime I have tested Sweeping Crane while tanking, Brawler's Stance was significantly better since it adds to both defense and deflection.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Jenjer</DIV>

[Xanus]

On a side note Gage.. I notice you over in the Guard forums and other tank forums quite abit. I see you're wondering about raid tanks and the guard always being the defacto choice.Whenever you guys get up in lvls and begin raiding, YOU should be the MT not the guards. The uber leet guards who see this will undoubtedly flame me for saying that but Monks make better MT's on the melee raid mobs.Try this out<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(MT group)1)Monk(MT/Spider Stance -easier time at controlling aggro because of damage)2)Guardian(off tanks adds and keeps his defense skill buffs on group)3)Bruiser/Zerker(avoidance buffage thrown on you)4)Troubador(Swan's song, Ivigorating Opus)5)Warden(DustStorm maintained and the occasional regen when damage happens)6)Mystic/Defiler(Wards - Defiler/harbringer - Mystic/Enduring Breath)<p>Message Edited by Xanusus on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:27 PM</span>

[Bur]

Guardians are really in for a nerfing to tell you the truth (and I don't really like to say anyone needs to be nerfed). The other day I was wacking stuff in RoV (golems, white-yellow) with a full group. I tanked a few (ate a good deal of cleric mana doing so). A guardian walked up.. pulled one.. decimated it.. never dropped below 80%. What teh fek? I can understand them being better tanks but having the evasion we should have and tons better mitigation? Ugh.

[NeVeRLi]

I can tell you this, you will never see a guardian take over 800 dmg from that golem in RoV, and I know when I was there the blue con golems would knock the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] out of me and get many a lucky streaks going. My guild mates fondly call me bait as a joke now and not tank <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I dont like to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] or see anyone nerfed but the facts there and SoE has nerfed our agility and deflection to the point we get hit more and take more dmg. You go group for hours on end, 8-12 hours (cough.. yes some weekends I power game) and you will see whats going on. Are deflection and our main skill agility are what make us special and as it stands its whats holding us back.

[GymRat]

I would really like to see them take another hard look at how we take damage. I want them to put us back on the agi defense and rather than nerf it to hell fix it properly. I want to avoid damage by having it miss, me making it miss, or me turning the attack back on the attacker. Instead the typical response is BROAD SCALE NERF which seems to be their answer to everything because it's easy and doesnt require extra thought and work. I dont want to see guardians nerfed why punish them? Just put us back up where we should be....if I'm not mistaken AGI also helps determine how often we hit a creature? If thats the case we took a hose on that one to with the nerf.

[NeVeRLi]

Since the patches I miss about 15% more and get hit by stuff that even cons grey to me now... and if its a caster I dont care if its 15 lvl's below me I dont mess with them, they stiffle/root/stun and go nuke happy <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> the way monsters nuke now is out of line and making them way over powered IMHO and this crazy nuking is even worse than monsters that are hitting people with scout/assassin/ranger special attacks that are only usuable when they are stealthed or behind the person and the monsters are clearing in front of you and not stealthed.<p>Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on <span class=date_text>03-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:58 PM</span>

[Ethelwo]

<DIV>I think the point he his getting at is that heavy armor is supposed to work by mitigating damage while monks in light armor are supposed to avoid it altogether. He was getting hit  just as often as the guardian was, but for more damage. He is right and I have noticed the same thing though I have not tested it out. I play a 30 monk and a L28 Zerker. My Zerker at L28 can tank much better then my 30 monk on the same mobs. Something is broke on monks and bruisers avoidance and has been since the agility nerf. SOE did this nerf to make it so scouts couldn't tank as well as fighters. The problem was it effected monks and bruiser in the same way it effected the scouts. An unentended consequence maybe. They need to take another look at the whole avoidance issue on both Monks and Bruisers as it relates to the agility nerf ment to only effect the scouts. Increasing the damage mitigation of light armor does nothing to repair the avoidance problem created by the nerf. They should one, either make Monks and Bruisers dependant on agility for power like scouts and call them a dps class thus removing all pretense of them being fighters. Or two, fix the agility mechanic so that the Monks and Bruiser go back to the old standard and scouts don't. this may be impossible to code so I would say the first change is now nessary. Monks and Bruiser need to become agility fighters and leave the strength fighters behind. At least this will allow them to make new trait selections that will give them the power they need to play dps. Providing SOE resets these trait selections for them after the change. The agility on my Monk is much higher then my strength. I would prefer to gain power from that stat if things remain as they are. My buffs provide agility not strength.</DIV>

[Sort]

<DIV>A monk tanking better than a guardian....do I understand that you want to tank like a guardian and still do as much damage......thats insane!...can we say godly class...oh sure a man wearing woven armor should be able to tank like a man wearing plate or vanguard....that doesnt even make since..the guardians dont do nearly as much damage as we do if you play the monk right...I really dont agree that a monk...should be able to tank the same as a class that is geared torwards tanking..that is just dumb...absolutly dumb period I play a monk in every game I have the chance and I have been dissatisfied with every monk that has been made in games.....but this monk finaly was done well and right...stop complaining about what this monk cant do and open your eyes to see what it can do...hes good in every situation in combat..ultimate 1 on 1 fighter.</DIV>

[NeVeRLi]

The point is a man wearing bulky heavy armor with low agility is supposed to be hit, the armor keeps them safe and absorbs the damage. The problem we are seeing now in the game is the way the monsters are not even hitting.A monk who is wearing light armor, with very high agility and our skills are not supposed to be hit as much (and when we get hit we take more damage) but as it stands we are getting hit and we are getting hit more and we take double the damage cause of our armor. I hope all see's the problem here and understands why this is wrong. When the game mechanic's are broke so that a heavy armor wearing low agility fighter is not getting hit and a agile high agility monk is getting hit alot more then there is the problem and SoE needs to fix it.<p>Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on <span class=date_text>03-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:59 AM</span>

[Thunderbr]

Fact is a Guardian is a Guardian, they're meant to tank, you're meant to be a mostly DPS/slight secondary tank...if you wanted to have amazing tanking skills then you probably went with the wrong class choice.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thunderbrew wrote:<BR>Fact is a Guardian is a Guardian, they're meant to tank, you're meant to be a mostly DPS/slight secondary tank...if you wanted to have amazing tanking skills then you probably went with the wrong class choice.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Please don't post false information in our forum.</P> <P>Monks = tanks.</P> <P>We are not DPS nor slight secondary tanks.</P> <P>There is no "wrong" class choice, as all fighters are tanks.<BR></P>

[SomeDudeCRO]

Fact is a Monk is a tank, all fighters are tanks.Atleast we are better than Zerkers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>lol crazy xripperx is the only one with any realistic mentality- lol - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>guardians are fine - either they take our dps or take our tanking and give us more dps - we are hybrid - we can tank and well especially in full grps - but by design we have a split roll you tend to ignore the fact that </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MONK/BRUISER = MT = NO GUARDIAN in the average grp - who wants a guard for dps if you have a choice</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>GUARDIAN = MT = MONK/BRUISER great dps from behind or flanking w/o question- </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lol after tonight im a firm believer in the 1MT phylosophy. if you wanna be a meath shield go play a meat shield = period = no corrolation- if you will sacrifice the dps for the tanking ability then say that - maybe soe will listen </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but my server has a younger community that has learned quickly and openly dislikes tanking by monks/bruisers- we can and we do  = but all who have been asked or voice their opinion say take the tanking ability and gimme the dps and some utility that matters. scouts always have a place - wiz/warlocks always have a place- healers - dont get me started - the warriors are thinning by the day and gaurdians and beserkers are running all over the [Removed for Content] place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when it comes raid time or exp grp time - you will be overlooked more often that you already are now if you are just another tank for the sake of tanking... right now we get invited to raid just for being a monk- or bruiser nothing else required- go punch somn or hit it with ur stick - not gear and ac comparisons at all - not for being useless like 4 guardians would be to a raid- you can squeeze in either way from the front or the back - leave it alone before they turn you into scouts!! (its enough yall get invis lol)  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>more than 2-3 guards dont go to raid at all  - unless its a guild thing and they are doing some quest isht . if you wanna be thrown in that category of too many tanks - dont need him - category - then go ahead - i for darn sure dont - stick to managing fights building relationships = and doing damage and increasing grp flexibilty by managing adds.</DIV><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:00 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <DIV>blah blah blah stuff about being dps <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>1) I can't WAIT until our DPS is lowered so people like you who spout off about "being wanted for our DPS" will just shut up.  We are going to be average DPS, not great DPS.  This is by design.  Monks should not outdamage scouts/mages despite the scenario.  DPS is their job, not ours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)  Saying "omg if monks could tank no one would want guardians" is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.  Currently the brawler tree (and every other fighter) can reliably MT for xp groups from lvls 1 to 50.  I know because I've done it.  Yet plenty of non-guilded guardians are reaching 50 daily in xp groups, despite the number of "uber" monks with their great tanking and amazing DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That alone proves that adjusting raid content to be tankable by all the classes wouldn't hurt anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All it does is finish up the balance issues with the fighter class and insure we can be picked for raids for our intended role (tank) and not the scouts intended role (melee dps and utility).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So take your WE ARE THE GREATEST DPS EVER, WE SHOULDN'T TANK GUARDIANS SHOULD! to the guardian forums and tell them how great they are.</DIV>

[SomeDudeCRO]

They're simply idiots really, plain and simple. It's time for someone to just step up and call them what they are. They don't have the necesarry skills in comprehension to particpate in a discussion, and attempting to do so is completely futile.Ideally there shouldn't be an outright best tank amoung the fighter tree, each should just have their own flavor and negligible differences in offsetting balancing abilities. Fair-minded individuals would agree (and many do, even on the guardian forums), and so would the devs as it's in their interests to make a better game by doing so. Although in my personal opinion from the parses I see in game and the players I'm grouping with, we don't have it as bad as Berserkers. They take more damage than us even with a shield, and dual wielding there is no comparison. Fighters in general need tweaking, not just us, particularly on the dps we all do save maybe guardians.

[Brew01]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <DIV>lol crazy xripperx is the only one with any realistic mentality- lol - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>guardians are fine - either they take our dps or take our tanking and give us more dps - we are hybrid - we can tank and well especially in full grps - but by design we have a split roll you tend to ignore the fact that </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MONK/BRUISER = MT = NO GUARDIAN in the average grp - who wants a guard for dps if you have a choice</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>GUARDIAN = MT = MONK/BRUISER great dps from behind or flanking w/o question- </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lol after tonight im a firm believer in the 1MT phylosophy. if you wanna be a meath shield go play a meat shield = period = no corrolation- if you will sacrifice the dps for the tanking ability then say that - maybe soe will listen </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but my server has a younger community that has learned quickly and openly dislikes tanking by monks/bruisers- we can and we do  = but all who have been asked or voice their opinion say take the tanking ability and gimme the dps and some utility that matters. scouts always have a place - wiz/warlocks always have a place- healers - dont get me started - the warriors are thinning by the day and gaurdians and beserkers are running all over the [Removed for Content] place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when it comes raid time or exp grp time - you will be overlooked more often that you already are now if you are just another tank for the sake of tanking... right now we get invited to raid just for being a monk- or bruiser nothing else required- go punch somn or hit it with ur stick - not gear and ac comparisons at all - not for being useless like 4 guardians would be to a raid- you can squeeze in either way from the front or the back - leave it alone before they turn you into scouts!! (its enough yall get invis lol)  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>more than 2-3 guards dont go to raid at all  - unless its a guild thing and they are doing some quest isht . if you wanna be thrown in that category of too many tanks - dont need him - category - then go ahead - i for darn sure dont - stick to managing fights building relationships = and doing damage and increasing grp flexibilty by managing adds.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <SPAN class=date_text>03-05-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:00 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I started my monk Wanting to tank I strive to be the best tank a monk can be Its not easy but its possible. I make most my own grps my wife is a Temp so its not hard just add dps and I've got a good grp. Currently I'm lvl 39 and can tank pretty much anything a plate class my lvl can I take a bit more damage and use more mana when doing it but I do it. I hardly ever go out of my circle of friends for grp members due to the fact that when they realize I'm tanking they start to [Removed for Content] me off with the "LOL the monks tanking" BS. It bothers me to no end that my fellow Monks post such dribble as We are DPS not TANKS. I've compaired my DPS with a Guardians in a typical pick up grp situation with them tanking and me as DPS you know what the Guard wasn't far off from me as pure DPS. The only way we out DPS a Guard is by Spaming our specials (which isn't something I enjoy doing). Why play a class that takes skill in tanking only to be a button spaming LOW dps class??? I think if you wanted a DPS/Utility class perhaps <STRONG>YOU</STRONG> should reroll <STRONG>NOT</STRONG> the Monks who want to play the role SOE has described for us as TANKs.... </P>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>well actually im a bruiser and im tired of this argument </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>mnks/bruisers are hybrids = and i dont know what guardian you were tanking with but i know every guard ive ever tanked with had about 1/4 of my dps-  i average 100+ w/ 2h blunt EVERY FIGHT- and i take a VERY SMALL dps hit when tanking in a full grp buffed to max -- with no down time - so maybe you need to twink ur gear bro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>either way lol - yall can take ur kung fu tank and walking around in the robe of the invoker arses and shove them- i never tried to make an argument out of this- its a matter of opinion and you wanting somn that you wont get lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so im letting it go on that note - every class has a hybrid type black sheep- so monks put ureselves in an enchanters shoes = useless in a good way. flexible enough to fill a roll- but actually can be done without - funny .:smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we will be left alone if anything - they will give us our cutsie armor and shoo us under the table and just boost scouts combat arts. the simple and correct solution  - hopefully they will come out and say what class is meant for what and give better descriptions on soloability etc so all you UBER TANKING MONKS will re roll or quit - cause you didnt get ur way  0 so when that happens and gage vanishes from the boards -</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it will be irony in its finest - lol - everyone i meet in RL and in game that are monks or bruisers openly say that these arguments are funny and think all the mnk tanks are idiots for even putting up this argument - it doesnt even make sense on a lore level - and i promise that if you did a survey and people who werent afraid actaully get involved in this fiasco would voice thier opinion you would see the truth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>perfect mix of a scout and a tank.... <FONT color=#ff00cc size=5>HYBRID CLASS </FONT>enough said. (yes its in pink for attention purposes)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:32 AM</span>

[NeVeRLi]

The question is still not answered guys <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Why does a agile light armor wearing monk with high agility and deflection skill get hit more than a warrior with heavy bulky armor and low agility? Yes monks will and should take more damage but the problem is we get hit to much now. I expect to see the guardian getting hit and his armor absorbing the damage but this is just not the case now, with their self buffs that raise their defense skill and the high level tower shields they dodge or block almost all attacks. Who cares about dps or how long it takes to kill something when you dont get hit or take any damage from the hit in the first place.I'm just asking some kind of balance and this nerf to agility and our deflection has broke the game balance. Monks and scouts should beable to avoid attacks better and they are not! We take more damage dammit and get hit more!<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on <span class=date_text>03-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:58 AM</span>

[Brew01]

<DIV>What lvl bruiser are you? </DIV> <DIV>So what if we are Hybrid? So are the other Plate tanks(sk/Pally) should they also not be able to tank Raid lvl content?</DIV> <DIV>So you want a recreation of the Holy trinity? </DIV> <DIV>When I get a Pick up grp I'm almost never seen as a tank and in some cases get laughed at when I ask to be the MT (Mostly due to close minded people like you). Old Lore has nothing to do with what SOE wants to do with EQ2s version of a monk or even a brusier. Keepin a circle of like minded friends does not mean most Monks/bruisers think this argurment is made from Idiots. BTW BRO Check my gear  <A target=_blank href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=147113103">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=147113103</A> I'm pretty sure its on par if not better then most for my lvl. I do decent DPS but like I said unless I'm spaming my specials a guardian can keep up with me in that area. Yes I do more over time however in the normal grping situations where a mobs life span isn't very long they do very decent DPS.(This is just from memory I'll have to do some tests to prove this but I'm pretty sure its not to far off) </DIV> <DIV>I don't care if all you ever want to do is be a DPS brawler because you know what very soon your going to be Rerolling because our DPS won't be what it once was. SOE did not intend for brawlers to be DPS first and TANK sec period. I have no problem tanking however reading that a guardian is able to avoid more Hits then a Brawler upsets me. How do you not see this as broken??? I came from EQ1 and experinced the Holy Trinity first hand as a end game Shadow Knight however once GOD went live I left. Making the War the only tank class able to MT for most content was enough for me. If EQ2 follows the same path as EQ live then I'm sure I won't be the only person to toss my game.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Brew01 on <span class=date_text>03-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:34 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <DIV>well actually im a bruiser and im tired of this argument </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>mnks/bruisers are hybrids = and i dont know what guardian you were tanking with but i know every guard ive ever tanked with had about 1/4 of my dps-  i average 100+ w/ 2h blunt EVERY FIGHT- and i take a VERY SMALL dps hit when tanking in a full grp buffed to max -- with no down time - so maybe you need to twink ur gear bro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>either way lol - yall can take ur kung fu tank and walking around in the robe of the invoker arses and shove them- i never tried to make an argument out of this- its a matter of opinion and you wanting somn that you wont get lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so im letting it go on that note - every class has a hybrid type black sheep- so monks put ureselves in an enchanters shoes = useless in a good way. flexible enough to fill a roll- but actually can be done without - funny .:smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we will be left alone if anything - they will give us our cutsie armor and shoo us under the table and just boost scouts combat arts. the simple and correct solution  - hopefully they will come out and say what class is meant for what and give better descriptions on soloability etc so all <FONT color=#ffff00>you UBER TANKING MONKS will re roll or quit - cause you didnt get ur way  0 so when that happens and gage vanishes from the boards -</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it will be irony in its finest - lol - everyone i meet in RL and in game that are monks or bruisers openly say that these arguments are funny and think all the mnk tanks are idiots for even putting up this argument - it doesnt even make sense on a lore level - and i promise that if you did a survey and people who werent afraid actaully get involved in this fiasco would voice thier opinion you would see the truth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>perfect mix of a scout and a tank.... <FONT color=#ff00cc size=5>HYBRID CLASS </FONT>enough said. (yes its in pink for attention purposes)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <SPAN class=date_text>03-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:32 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>WILL.  NEVER.  HAPPEN.</P> <P>You are in the wrong class sir.  Your DPS will be lowered, you will not continue to outdamage scouts/mages, and I will laugh in your face.</P> <P>This is not EQ1.  We are tanks.  We will always be tanks.</P> <P>Oh, and go ahead and hold your breath.  I will NEVER delete my monk, I will NEVER not be a part of this community, and I will NEVER not be MT.</P> <P>You are living in a fantasy world if you think your bruiser will continue to do the insane DPS he does.</P> <P>You picked a tank.  I suggest you go play your assassin if you wanna do good melee DPS.</P> <P>I guarantee you in the long run I'll be the one still playing my monk and laughing, as I tank raid content.<BR></P>

[bonesbro]

Neverlift: It's stacked +defense buffs. In the exact same way that massive stacked +agility made you invincible, stacked +defense also makes you invincible. Guardians get the credit because they've got some really good +defense buffs as part of their class, so they always have them up.

[SomeDudeCRO]

Well, thank God idiots like Sage aren't the ones making the decisions.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SomeDudeCRO wrote:<BR>Well, thank God idiots like Sage aren't the ones making the decisions.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You know, I wonder though could this be history repeating itself.</P> <P>Someone like him could've been what ended up getting the monks of EQ1 nerfed, heh.</P> <P>Oh and anyways you have to play the way he says CRO, he told me earlier quite a few times that I'm wrong.</P> <P>Sorry <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[SomeDudeCRO]

I'm an optimist.....It's all numbers and calculations, the devs have control of the algorithms and do what they wish. They have said we should tank, so they will adjust the algorithms to make this so <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Check this dialogue out Gage it's good for a laugh... I'm sure you probably have recieved something similar. Never seen heard of this guy before even :0(1110155673)[Sun Mar 06 19:34:33 2005] aPC -1 Ratwars:Ratwars/a tells you,"do know that wearing that robes takes away from ac i know stats are good but you can find something better with more ac"(1110155673)[Sun Mar 06 19:34:33 2005] You tell Ratwars,"Sorry, I am A.F.K. (Away From Keyboard)"(1110155805)[Sun Mar 06 19:36:45 2005] You tell Ratwars,"I am well aware of that, but AC is the last of line of defense for brawlers. First line DEFLECTION, second line AGILITY, third line AC. the difference between wearing this and not is about 1% which can be easily seen byparse "Ratwars:Ratwars/a tells you,"oh so you think you figured out eq2 that quickly eh for fighters hmm mmkay"You tell Ratwars,"stick to knowing your own class"Ratwars/a tells you,"i know all classes i got one of each so blow me you don't know ssgd about this game yet"You tell Ratwars,"whatever dude <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> thanks for the laugh"Ratwars/a tells you,"laugh i'm not one wearing a girls robe"You tell Ratwars,"hmm, dumb and immature! well done, like to go for a trifecta?"Ratwars/a tells you,"look i don't care what ya have to say you one of those ppl that think they knows everything get grps killed cause you have your own agenda and you smell so shove off"listen punk, my groups always do well and ofcourse you have no way of knowing that.... i dont presume to know anything about someone elses class, I can't parse and test their tactics... the true measure of idiocy is someone like you who tries"(1110156205)[Sun Mar 06 19:43:25 2005] You tell Ratwars,"compare apples to oranges"Ratwars/a tells you,"i know my klsa mother vcxwer i come from eq1 8yrs running and this is no difference i know you a n00b at heart i can't help that more like feel sorry for your n00b [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]"(111015680<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Sun Mar 06 19:53:28 2005LOL, at that point I just stop responding. Gotta get ready to go to dinner with gf anyway <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gaige]

<DIV>ROFL!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll be honest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Except for the posts I get in replies to mine, every single email/tell/pm I've ever received has been positive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People are really nice to me, have been since launch, and are always very gracious and stuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its quite nice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But yeah, that guy obviously was... well he was funny!</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>um some dude- stay in that position - as some dude- no one of importance cause ur the idiot - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what i said clearly is that i tank all the time -read around - you will see it - i tank better than alot of guardians my level and i say that too all the time to thier faces - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now again idiots - what im saying is that NO - we shouldnt tank as well as they do or be able to do so against RAID content- we are not built for it on any level  - in armor = in abilities - on down the line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>even if soe does agreee with your point of view and they are right - that is totally fine gage- the point you are missing - and i guess i will say this - cause yall idiots havent gotten it yet - is that if they do- </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there are alot more dps monks than otherwise - or tanking monks- thats what im saying- this will actually totally restructure our class- thats what im saying 0- nothing more = this will upset more than it will please - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if so how will they do it gage? how do they change it so that the numbers are perfect and we avoid just the right amount and get hit just the right amount? you cant with random numbers gage- ? so how do you do it some dude?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>do you give more mitigation to light armor? how do you do that without making medium armor useless somedude??? when they increassed mitigation they increased the armors ac-?? did you forget that???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so instead of agrueing - give a solution that actually works - there arent any - you are the pentacle of what will ever be an avoidance tank- nothing more nothing less- we arent balanced as a race- not as a class - we are balanced across the board as fighters- even the agility nerf would effect a wizard if he went for agility gear- its not that complicated </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SomeDudeCRO]

Well, I'm the first to admit that I am an idiot. Like anything else (in order to be successful), playing EQ2 the game is a learning process; studying, reading and observing, and generally using the tools at your disposal. (Like a parser and going over your logs, and reading your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] spell descriptions)The more you learn the more you know, therefore the less of an idiot you become. Now, the correct term I should of used when addressing you is stupid, someone who more likely than not has the abilities to learn but willfully choses not to.Why should every other fighter other than brawlers be able to tank raid mobs? Is the utility we get and the DPS really that much better? The answer to that question is obviously NO and their is plenty of empirical evidence to show this to be the case. (And for the record, I personally cant even say that we indeed can't as I'm not 50 but when I am my guild is open minded enough and has seen my toon's abilities enough to give different tactics a try, I also trust the experiences of people I don't know but who have proven themselves to be knowledgable and credible through their posts)In response to your knock on my pseudonym "SomeDude", well I've been using that name since I was your age and playing Quake and the CRO is from my origin, Croatia. Keeping that name, while it was cool when I was 15 "Hahaha You were blasted by SOMEDUDE" from game to game has allowed me to run into old on line buddies I otherwise would've probably missed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Also, please I beg you to post in a more coherent fashion. I'm not the grammar police, or your 3rd grade English teacher, but when making an argument, it is really helpful to all if you are able to convey the premises of your argument in an intelligent and logical fashion. Just like that guy out of nowhere who started sending me idiotic tells today, who probably read one of my posts and was simply incapable of comprehending, you just sound like a [Removed for Content] before your words can even be considered.<p>Message Edited by SomeDudeCRO on <span class=date_text>03-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:51 PM</span>

[SomeDudeCRO]

Funny thing is I don't even wear the Invoker at the beginning of MTing, only throw it on when as usual, there really is no reason for me to sacrifice the power for the bit of AC as the group is tearing throw mobs left and right.

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>and through all of that bs and jargon you didnt provide one feesible solution which is all that i asked for - grammer check that [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</DIV>

[SomeDudeCRO]

You asked for something? Where?

[SageMarrow]

<DIV> <DIV><U><EM>if so how will they do it gage? how do they change it so that the numbers are perfect and we avoid just the right amount and get hit just the right amount? you cant with random numbers gage- ? so how do you do it some dude?</EM></U></DIV> <DIV><U><EM></EM></U> </DIV> <DIV><U><EM>do you give more mitigation to light armor? how do you do that without making medium armor useless somedude??? when they increassed mitigation they increased the armors ac-?? did you forget that???</EM></U></DIV> <DIV><U><EM></EM></U> </DIV> <DIV><U><EM>so instead of agrueing - give a solution that actually works - there arent any - you are the pentacle of what will ever be an avoidance tank- nothing more nothing less- we arent balanced as a race- not as a class - we are balanced across the board as fighters- even the agility nerf would effect a wizard if he went for agility gear- its not that complicated </EM></U></DIV> <DIV><EM><U></U></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM><U></U></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM><U>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^THERE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^</U></EM></DIV></DIV>

[SomeDudeCRO]

Thank you for making that as difficult to read as possible. How do they change it? Simple, they change the algorithms. BTW, I think they are doing a pretty good job of it as we go.<p>Message Edited by SomeDudeCRO on <span class=date_text>03-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:13 AM</span>

[Inv]

<SPAN class=time_text> <DIV align=left>Figured I attempt to post some things I have noticed recently <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But fist.. Sagemarrow... please tell me you are using a translator or something I mean man My grammar is horrid but your posts make no sense flame people I think and try to see smart but I have to read them 3 times and by the end I give up with a shrug.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>Anyway...  </DIV> <DIV align=left>Recently I was trotting thru EF and find a 44 guardian and a band of 41-42 members in 1 grp.  coecer  wizzie temp inquis assasin.   They were killing Dreadwake 42^^^ grpx2  As I watch this fight  The gurdian was taking almost no hits at all.  When he did take a hit it was for 300-700 dmg tops.  The worst part was he avoided most of dreadwakes swings. about very 30 secs he would take a hit.  That is alot of avoided hits.  during the whole fight none of the healers went below 90% power (granter coecer in grp)  But this was rediculas as he would go over a min without a hit to land on him. when one did reactive fires and is like a chump change hit.  Also keep in mind Dreakwake still had power and was cycling skills just never landing any.  Me at 47 with a grp of 45-47 I would die in seconds eating 1.5-2k hits.  Comparing my unbuffed defense to the guardians group buffed defense I had around 1800ac advantage yet I die in about 15secs to that mob. I have seen a 49 SK taking 3x the beating this 44 guardian was on the same mob a few days earlier.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>      Also recently was exping out in perma and found a few interesting things.  44 Guardain friend and me at 48 with a grp of friends.  Guardian starts out we get some adds he picks them up with tuants and chanter mezs some usally just leaves them on him as they really don't hurt him badly at all.  At one point he had 4 48lv encounters on him and reactives were handling most his healing. That scary part was he was taking about as many his as I do when tanking 1 encounter.  Well a bit later he has to leave we grab a wizard and I start to tank.  so with a 4 level advantage ( well 3 as guardian leveled mid way thru grind)  We no longer could non stop run around chain killing taking adds in stride. Couple encounters on me was a race with the debil to kill them fast enough to survive.  Also came to realize the 2 tuants we have really hurts as we get adds I cannot easily pick them up with tuants or my 1grp buff, due having to cycle the tuants and pumping out dmg to keep aggro control power was being eaten. The problem became needing the tuants to pick up mobs as running up and pounding attack keys is bad also a mess for a chanter to CC with me beaitng on his mobs.   Was very depressing to feel way inferior to the other tanks.  </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>I hate to see other tank classes avoiding many more attacks buffed up in grps then me. The lack of aggro control in add situation is very depressing and the number of ultility of adding buffs or emergency heals and what not is also disappointing.  Used to think it was the dmg out put that made things equal but i have seen other tanks pull almost and some times even higher then me while in the tanking postion. ( Higher not often but dang close to alot)  I do get out dpsed my wizards and even summoners quite often.  Most scouts hold same or a bit more on alot of fights. Altho most pull aggro using skills that generate aggro for haste or a high dmg hit and just spam and not figure out a good pattern to keep dps up and not aggro at same time.  Some do some don't as to why no clue guessing its the above or gear.  When I dps I pull rather high but I have been very lucky to get some very very nice weapons and gear thru broker or harvest as I leveled.  Also due to the brawlers being [Removed for Content] on patches alot and shamans heals being [Removed for Content] for so long and druids regens being super aggro and sub par the mass majority of healers are Cleric line I woudl venture to say on my server 65% easy are the cleric healing line.  So even if and when we can compete and be considered equal the healing support will mroe then likly favor paltes still.  As for the "we do more dmg as a trade off of def"  I personally see other tanks dpsing rather high also dual weilding guardians doing decent dps also.  I do not see our dps helping the mob die fast enough to make up the diference in number of hits and damage we receive.  That is not a good way to balence out tanking imho.   Well just some things I personally have seen in the last week of play and its been very informative to say the least.     </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>One thing to keep in mind. Once scouts dmg is increased that is coming and with wizards super dmg. What role will we have?  barely any utility less dmg then most and the most unwanted tank of the fighter trees.  You will see us lost in a void with few options in grps. My only hope it to get 50 shelf my monk and start a plate for the expansion to play a tank as I had intended. I hope this ends up not being my only choice.  </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>Sorry for the long post and the double post below <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Besafe and Safe hunting!</DIV></SPAN><p>Message Edited by Invic on <span class=date_text>03-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:10 AM</span>

[Inv]

<DIV align=left>doh spam posted on accident</DIV><p>Message Edited by Invic on <span class=date_text>03-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:49 AM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>i type really fast - and dont take time for punctuation - sorry bro - used to work in a call center where call notes had to be takin in 30 secs or less and usually look like this </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cust called in/not kw paco/didnt give acss to acct/ educ the cust on plans-services requested/ dispatched call/v27</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so if that looks like a jumble of mess then - my bad lol- its also why i use dashes instead of periods- makes life alot faster and or easier for me-  </DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Ha Ha crazy.  In college I worked at a call center where I had to do the same thing.  It was a "dig safe" place for utility contractors.  It took me awhile to quit typing like that all the time.</DIV>

[SomeDudeCRO]

Invic, really?/shrugI've had an extremely easy time tanking perma post patch3. And dreadwake I duoed with a 50 berserker the other night, I tanked until I would've needed a heal then gave him aggro. We killed him, and have done so a few times like that just duo, but we were both at 20% when all was said and done. Did get a ruby out of it once tho <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm also frequently grouped with good utility classes, but even without perma is still doable nonstop/no downtime.

[Inv]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SomeDudeCRO wrote:<BR>Invic, really?<BR><BR>/shrug<BR><BR><BR>I've had an extremely easy time tanking perma post patch3. And dreadwake I duoed with a 50 berserker the other night, I tanked until I would've needed a heal then gave him aggro. We killed him, and have done so a few times like that just duo, but we were both at 20% when all was said and done. Did get a ruby out of it once tho <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>I'm also frequently grouped with good utility classes, but even without perma is still doable nonstop/no downtime.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Didn't  say I couldn't tank perma saying it was 100% easier with a Guardian and 100% safer. Those are just as things have happened. Also I was 47 last time tanking him or trying to.  2 levels and 3 levels higher on a mob that is green to me now does make a diference as it will go grey by then and the grey mob code or what not helps a bit <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   Keep In mind I post my experieces and my observations that is all I can do as that is all I can see.  That info is for those who want to see other opinions and IF big IF a dev reads it and takes it into thought.  Just info <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />    Do want to try him now as he should be just now grey and see the diference <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But as to a 44 literally never being hit almost is very sad thing to see.</P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Invic on <span class=date_text>03-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:35 AM</span>

[NeVeRLi]

I'm not sure how much a guardian can raise their defense skill but I know when grouping with one my defense skill is raised by 15 or so points. This is like me being three levels higher for that skill. The guardian was only lvl 38 and I dinged lvl 40 last night with the group. We did Dreadwake and the guardian never got hit, I was taking dmg just from the barrages or reposts, I moved to behind it(the safe place to be when fighting raid monsters) and did not take any dmg after that and it was just a matter of time before we beat Dreadwake down.Stunning a lvl 38 guardian can out tank a lvl 40 monk, How can a guardian just flat out not get hit... and I take 1200 dmg hits all the time! This is not balanced. There was a berserker with us also and he got hit worse than I did so its something to do with the guardian and there defense skill being so high.

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>SomeDudeCRO wrote:Fact is a Monk is a tank, all fighters are tanks.Atleast we are better than Zerkers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>*ahem*speaking as someone with BOTH a serk and a monk....I see both with advantages and disadvantages... but not one that shines any real amount better than the other on a whole..

[SomeDudeCRO]

Bah, sorry Invic... it was late and I wasn't thinking... I confused dreadwake with undertow <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Ariven, I can't say for sure, since I don't play a Zerker, but if I were you I wouldn't be happy with the amount of damage I was taking while tanking even when using a shield, but particularly when not. Maybe the 50 Zerkers I know aren't using your class to their fullest potential tho, /shrug...<p>Message Edited by SomeDudeCRO on <span class=date_text>03-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:46 AM</span>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>SomeDudeCRO wrote:Bah, sorry Invic... it was late and I wasn't thinking... I confused dreadwake with undertow <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Ariven, I can't say for sure, since I don't play a Zerker, but if I were you I wouldn't be happy with the amount of damage I was taking while tanking even when using a shield, but particularly when not. Maybe the 50 Zerkers I know aren't using your class to their fullest potential tho, /shrug...<p>Message Edited by SomeDudeCRO on <span class=date_text>03-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:46 AM</span><hr></blockquote>I am not happy with taking -any- damage... but seem to be holding my own.. and my agro management is rock solid... in fact quite often of late I have had a guardian in our common grouping who is 2-3 levels above me insist that I do the tanking.. in part due to the insane agro control I can get to... I am only 30 so I dont know the "end game" level stuff.. but with 1h and shield I am holding my own with yellows and oranges and occaisional reds (1 level into red) in EL... even with a single healer in the group...With my monk I will readily tank yellows and oranges with no problems or issues.. but will have mental reservations when there is more than 2-3 mobs in the encounter just simply because I am uncomfortable with the lack of agro control that I get with the serk. Another 4 levels to bring my monk to the same level with my serk and I wont have to rely on how things "were" with the serk at the lower level but with actual comparisons..But...so far each has advantages and disadvantages... and overall I see them as the same...When I get my cursader up in level I will weigh in with my opinions of that class as well..when I get a chance to heal for a serk with my inquisitor I will have another viewpoint on the matter (Since I have experience healing a SK, a pally, a monk and a bruiser)..... and I am trying to keep as much information about all the classes coming in as I can, just to be the best contributor to a group that I can be.

[Inv]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SomeDudeCRO wrote:<BR>Bah, sorry Invic... it was late and I wasn't thinking... I confused dreadwake with undertow <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR><BR>Ariven, I can't say for sure, since I don't play a Zerker, but if I were you I wouldn't be happy with the amount of damage I was taking while tanking even when using a shield, but particularly when not. Maybe the 50 Zerkers I know aren't using your class to their fullest potential tho, /shrug... <P>Message Edited by SomeDudeCRO on <SPAN class=date_text>03-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:46 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Hehe Np yeah Undertow is what 44^^  Yeah I tanked him since 45 lived thru it hurt alot tho <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />     Yeah Dreadwake being a 42^^^ grpx2 and watching these guys tank them and taking almost No hits ever is a real problem.  Other plate classes do about th same but avoid alot of hits also I think I am slighhlty behind them in tanking ability but not near as insane as the ultimate barely ever get him guardians jogging around.     It is bad that even the other plate tanks are very close the the same avoidance in standard grps that I have seen.  Hopefully things will be adjusted before we become novelties. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[NeVeRLi]

I talked to the guardian that helped do this test. Since learning they can raise their defense skill really high I asked him to tell me his defense skill with no buff's and then to buff out and tell me it. He is lvl 41 now and has all adept 1 for skills and wears full suit of feysteel armor and has best shield for his lvl. His defense unbuffed was 210 and buffed it was 226. So it seems for intent and purpose his defense when buffed is like he is really lvl 44. So I imagine a lvl 50 guardian gets it even better so on average they are like lvl 53-55 with their defense skill and then with casters debuffing the monsters... hell no wonder they dont get hit!Well maybe they can fix our deflection so that it actually works.Good day! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[froglockpalad]

<DIV>hmmm then iksar should be prefered race sence they have 5+ defence skill on there racial abilitys i know its not huge still good sure does help my iksar monk.</DIV>

[Linkdead_Phoen]

<DIV>I think everything Sage has said so far makes sense.  He's a brawler himself after all.  Just because he doesn't agree that monks are main tanks doesn't make him an stupid or an idiot.  Making fun of someone's grammer like that is childish.  Comes across as you can't think of a better insult.  We're not the ones saying monks should tank just the same as guardians :smileyvery-happy:.  I'm not saying you can't tank but I'm saying that you're not ideal tanks.  Of course there is always an exception to the rule and some brawlers may be equiped well enough to tank like a guardian.  Groups will always take guardians over SKs, paladins, monks, and bruisers.  Get used to it.  Your class isnt' designed to main tank all the time.  You are secondary tanks at best.  I might even go so far as to say 3rd in line next to paladins/SKs.  The reason we paladins and sks can tank more raid mobs is simply because we are closer to the guardian class than you.  I think it's time all you guys stopped whining about how you can't tank as good as guardians.  You've got higher DPS than any other fighter class and I dont' care what you say.  The reason I say this is because guardians, paladins and SKs don't or at least shouldnt' use many combat arts other than the ones that increase hate.  I find that more often then not I am jamming on my taunt buttons and buffs to keep aggro than anything else.  I can't tank like a guardian and I accept that so why can't you?  Gage, you will not be a main tank many times before your career in EQ2 comes to a close.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Linkdead_Phoenix wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Gage, you will not be a main tank many times before your career in EQ2 comes to a close.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You are wrong, but thanks for the insight <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[SomeDudeCRO]

If we were meant to tank significantly worse, then we should do significantly more dps or have better utility or have better hate management.Fact is, we dont do significantly more dps, don't have better hate management and dont have better utility.

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>somedudecro - you just answered your own argument....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we dont do more dps- we dont have ANY utility- we dont have anything that sets us apart as a class - we are soon to lose the dps - we arent the better tank nor in skills - health points - taunts - buffs etc - and finally we dont have the masses behind us socially who think we can tank - feel the need to risk us tanking w/ x amount of plate tanks running around that all reap the benefits of heavy armors - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so the only way to counter balance this would be a complete class overhaul from scratch which is not happening = that would mean never giving the dps in the first place = replacing those million and one combat arts with taunts and aggro increasing attacks - giving 360degree avoidance to compete with gaurdian and plate types mitigation - and giving light armor the outright mitigation and ac values of medium armor to at least kind of manage the damage spikes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but oops - that would ring up as a complete class overhaul mid game - still early - but mid game which would inherently cause chaos saying as though all the dps monks- will run screaming from the class and MAYBE re - roll, while all the other classes will walk in fear daily - those of which who dont feel like playing a pay to play beta version of a game will leave as well...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so that aint happening either -  oh and gage - hes right... ^^ read that</DIV><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:14 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <DIV>somedudecro - you just answered your own argument....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we dont do more dps- we dont have ANY utility- we dont have anything that sets us apart as a class - we are soon to lose the dps - we arent the better tank nor in skills - health points - taunts - buffs etc - and finally we dont have the masses behind us socially who think we can tank - feel the need to risk us tanking w/ x amount of plate tanks running around that all reap the benefits of heavy armors - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so the only way to counter balance this would be a complete class overhaul from scratch which is not happening = that would mean never giving the dps in the first place = replacing those million and one combat arts with taunts and aggro increasing attacks - giving 360degree avoidance to compete with gaurdian and plate types mitigation - and giving light armor the outright mitigation and ac values of medium armor to at least kind of manage the damage spikes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but oops - that would ring up as a complete class overhaul mid game - still early - but mid game which would inherently cause chaos saying as though all the dps monks- will run screaming from the class and MAYBE re - roll, while all the other classes will walk in fear daily - those of which who dont feel like playing a pay to play beta version of a game will leave as well...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so that aint happening either -  <FONT color=#ffff00>oh and gage - hes right... ^^ read that</FONT></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Considering that as of now I don't group unless I'm MT I'd say he is wrong <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>one last thing- invic about your experiences.. thats the thing - they cant adjust agility for us as a class- thats the rock and the hardplace they are stuck between-</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if they adjust agility for us they have to adjust it for everyone - now in the case of defence for a guardian - its the same issue- how do you think a cleric gets misses on a grey mob just as we do/ skill levels comparisons.higher defenses than a mob is equipped to hit. fight a mob when hes green- then grey by 1 lvl then grey by 5 levels - you will go from seldom - to once in a while = to never.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but back to agility- agility is a blanket skill it effects every class and race the same- even a wizard could tank then if somehow he went straight agility armors and robes and got his agility to ungodly amounts such as the assasin tanks were doing... we arent split up by class and race so they cant make adjustments on an individual basis which is the problem they are now seeing i can gaurantee you. they are working on armors for us personally to manage this problem i would say. maybe we will be nerfed into puretanks - maybe they might- just might - give us an option. who knows </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>they cant fix avoidance without giving it to scouts as well. thats the bottom line. at the same time scouts were not getting getting hit at all = neither were we. no one said anything about us cause it was expected almost. just like sk's and pals are closer to guards - we bruisers and monks are closer to scouts...  </DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>They dont' have to.  They can tweak our deflection and parry.  Agility doesn't need to be touched.</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>the only thing that could be done to deflection and parry is to make them boost as high as a guardians defence capability - but one problem still remains- the radomization of deflection that is not present on the core defense skill - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if they were to give an outrageous number to high level monks and bruisers then maybe - but there is no way to make the number perfect as to not make us unhittable or in the same capacity make it not significant enough.</DIV>

[NeVeRLi]

Something needs to be done to fix our deflection so that it works better. I'm not calling for a nerf or any changes to guardians... but the fact their very high defense skill makes them not get hit is a problem in itself. I imagine taking the right race and picking the right racial traits and choosing the right class skills a guardian can raise their defense skill by 25 points this in effect is like them being 5 levels higher for their defense at the very least I have saw one raise his by 16 or 21 and he was only level 41 and not twinked. This is not balanced IMHO.

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>yeah ur right never - but like i said - thinking on a solution level- personally i think outside of giving us more deflection or fixing it -</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>giving us more ways to deflect attacks would also balance it out - so as we level we get innate abilities that we can level as we go till we max them out. instead of just the standard block parry riposte and miss...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>allow us more than just that like increase riposte attacks - since martial arts is highly dependant on counterattacks- as well as 1-2 more ways to block - maybe a dip - dodge - bob - weave persay - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>more chances to do so will balance out the randomization on the numerical level so that it would have to check more than 2x when calculating a hit or a miss.</DIV>

[NeVeRLi]

Last night in Feerrott I did some more tests with the guardian. At lvl 41 he is soloing the blue con ^^ there.I know kiting with ranged weapons and having enough room to circle around and back pedal works for rangers and mages to some effect... but he just flat out stood there and did not get hit by the bitter blooms or lizardmen. When I tried them I got my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] handed to me and my AC was 7232 with all my buff's and yes Stone stance only lasts 20sec but within that time frame I was hit at least three times. At one point I had my Hero's armor HO special going and was at almost 8100 AC and was still getting my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] handed to me!Bottom line my deflection was not working and my AC did not mean jack! Only thing different between me and the guardian was our defense skill and his being like 20 points higher than mine. I was almost 3000 AC over his AC and it just did not matter. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />PS: I was taking 350-900+ dmg with most hits. On a side note the experience was indeed better and the drops were too.<p>Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on <span class=date_text>03-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:49 PM</span>

[NeVeRLi]

Here is link to my monk.http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=164100110 Here is the link to the guardian.http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=149920110