I did a test last night with a friend of mine who is a lvl 35 Mystic and with a lvl 38 Guardian.

NeVeRLi · 03-02-2005, 06:07 PM

I'm a lvl 38 Monk with the best equipment money can buy, I have all adept 1 or III and 3 masters and use Sweeping Crane stance.I can post screen shots are give more info on my equipment if need be.Ok the test was simple me and my friend the mystic went and fought the lvl 35^^ great briarpaw bears in EL. The results was they knocked the living [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] out of me, and I killed them fast. These bears hit me very hard and the repost was almost always nasty unless they went out of power. I killed them very fast considering it was just me and the mystic.Ok the next step involved my friend the mystic getting a guardian to group with him and then go fight the same bears. The guardian had good equipment, not the best and the jewelry was really sub par. The results was stunning... the guardian just did not get hit!! The guardian barely ever went into the yellow with his hit points, he did take a long time to kill the bear. When the guardian did get hit he took less damage than me almost half the damage or more (example if I took 400 dmg he was taking 200 dmg or less from the same hit). Ok ignoring the fact he took less damage each hit... he just flat out did not get hit period! The bears are blue ^^ to both him and me. Fact is monks deflection is broken and not working right and SoE thinks more mitigation for light armor is the answer! WRONG!!! His AC was 5600+ and mines right at 4900+ and with my buffs I'm 5400 almost. My buff's run out fast and use power to keep them going.I need my power to use my special attacks so I can kill the monster fast (and I do great dps and kill stuff fast). Ok so this is not enough of a test for you? (I have grouped with berserkers and guardians in runnyeye for hours on end and saw first hand how good their armor helps them and the fact that with their higher AC ??? they just flat out dont get hit.So we did another test, we went to the condemed catacombs and fought the ancient watcher lvl 33^^^ x2. The results speak for themself.Me took around 800 dmg per regular crushing hit from the ancient watcher and its special was hitting me for over 2000 dmg (record high dmg being 2882)The wizard lvl 38 and the best equipment he can have for his lvl was taking 1,700 dmg per regular crushing hit. Needless to say he was dead in 1 or 2 hits.The guardian was taking 400 dmg or less per regular crushing hit. And he was not getting hit as much as I did ( I guess the extra 600+ AC he has over me just makes him not get hit).Ok so the fact is the guardian can pretty much solo the lvl 35^^ bears in EL almost and at lvl 39 now can solo them and not ever go below 90% hp. While me on the other hand at lvl 39 can also now solo the bears but my health is lucky to stay over 75% and can go under 50% in the blink of an eye thanks to the lucky dmg spikes we take. (play a monk and you know first hand what I'm talking about and how fast we can go into the red). At lvl 39 the bears are green to us now.Our deflection is not working as intended and dual welding or using fast delay weapons or spamming your specials with no thoughts or tactics will get you reposted so much and so fast you will die from it. I'm stunned as to why a person wearing heavy bulking armor is getting hit less than a monk who has alot higher agility and only 600 or so less AC. Guess we are just dps for now.I love playing a monk and feel even though we get hit more and take more dmg we are a good class... but its just not right for a agile light armor wearing monk to get hit more and to boot take over double the damage. I also wanna ask you what changed so much from me going from lvl 38 to getting my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] kicked by this bear??? To me being lvl 39 and now kicking its [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]... still taking some very hard hits not uncommon to see 800 crushing dmg from these things.PS: this is just a small test that me and some friends did and some of my opinion based on how I feel about monks and our broken deflection.Thanks and hope SoE can fix this issue.

Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on 03-02-2005 08:09 AM

xrippe · 03-02-2005, 06:45 PM

This is an old topic, Gaurdians should tank better. All their skills are geared for ac and taunting. They have better mitigation. They are Sony's mile stone for calibrating all fighter types. If we keep beating this horse Sony will make us tank just as good and do the same damage.. wich is not impressive...

One starred for my oppinion and game experiance lol.. here let me change it around so I "fit in" yeah we are so broken, we suck hardcore. Screw Sony...

Message Edited by xripperx on 03-03-2005 05:46 AM

Tay · 03-02-2005, 06:46 PM

Just a word of advice, you may wish to rephrase your post somewhat.You said:"The results was stunning... the guardian just did not get hit!! The guardian barely ever went into the yellow with his hit points, he did take a long time to kill the bear. When the guardian did get hit he took less damage than me almost half the damage or more (example if I took 400 dmg he was taking 200 dmg or less from the same hit). Ok ignoring the fact he took less damage each hit... he just flat out did not get hit period! The bears are blue ^^ to both him and me."One min you say he never went into the yellow and seemed to take less dmg each hit, then you go on to say he never got hit....something doesnt ring true here.If I were a SOE person I wouldnt pay much attention to this tbh...a rephrasing of a few bits and your sorted.

RadricTyc · 03-02-2005, 06:55 PM

post logs.

NeVeRLi · 03-03-2005, 03:05 PM

Well when AC beats outs high agility and our deflection then I consider it broke and better mitigation for our light armor is not the fix.And yes my wording is a little crazy but the fact remains he gets hit less.A guardian at 39 with all feysteel armor and good jewelry will have somewhere around 5400-5800 AC and a monk with the best armor good jewelery will have around 4900-5300 AC give or take... and with the monks deflection and agility being broken we get hit more and miss more. A monk should not get hit more! The fact we take more damage is fine but getting hit more cause SoE nerfed our agility and deflection is not right! And whats changing so much from lvl 38 to 39 thats making it allow me to solo the lvl 35^^ great bears in EL?[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] just fix it SoE!

NeVeRLi · 03-03-2005, 03:06 PM

And while your at it fix it so monsters dont use scout/assassin/ranger attacks when their not stealthed or in behind of you. SMILEY

Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on 03-03-2005 06:12 AM

Inv · 03-03-2005, 04:10 PM

All I know atm is We take a good bit worse then plate tanks over all. ( in reference to healing needed) Now I am not saying we can't tank before I get trolled to death SMILEY

at 46 I tank a bit less l in healing aspects to a friend who is 43 plate tank. Its mainly then skill hits that seem to bypass my defenses rather easily. The giving mobs large hits and making their normal hits is annoying as all ya do is watch for spikes and hope to not eat a few at once. The mitigation helped so we can tank better but now I see tons healers and Medium armor people strapping on light gear for stats and not a huge loss of AC lol and its was hard enough to find a 40+ light drop! It seems alot that tank well are working Agi way up with buffs to tank on par. Its depressing that we have to abuse a system to pull the same level of tanking. For now if I focus and time my skills right I dps which I enjoy as a monk. I enjoying Dpsing and 2nd tanking. I do worry as I tank but for now its not to bad. I pretty much only get invites to tank mobs blue of maybe even lol yellow and up no one wants a brawler it seems. Well as it is I have no clue where to go I don't want to lose our dps skills as I have seen a SK pull close to same dps while main tanking LOL But as it is now its liveable just wish that skill attacks were brought in line!!!! Spell avoidance doesn't work either as far as I am concerned . heck look at the drops I see plate drops 90% of the time I swear lol. Well I am still 50/50 but its liveable SMILEY

The annoying things is watching plates run over green^^ and such and not even be phased where I am usally runnig for my life. And yes My avoidance is about identical to all the plates I grp with and that is where the tanking gap is it seems. Well we shall see what the future holds SMILEY

Victor_Hugo · 03-03-2005, 04:57 PM

NeVeRLiFt wrote:
And while your at it fix it so monsters dont use scout/assassin/ranger attacks when their not stealthed or in behind of you.

Amen.

Ala · 03-03-2005, 07:12 PM

I agree, we do not tank as well as Guardians and I think we should (based on SOE's comments that all fighter classes were designed to tank equally well). But we are not bad tanks either. I was tanking in a group yesterday (I'm a lvl 36 Monk) and I did just fine taking on lvl 40 and 41 ^ ^ mobs and their friends.

I can be patient waiting for balance and I do think we take more damage than we should with con orange/ red mobs. But for lower level mobs (that con green^^/ blue^^) we are choice tanks for healers that know better. They will use very little mana healing while a Guardian will take damage.

I find my most difficult part of the game is not game mechanics at all, its simply convincing other players that we are tanks, even other Monks I play with think I'm crazy to suggest we are tanks.

RadricTyc · 03-03-2005, 07:26 PM

Alarr wrote:

I agree, we do not tank as well as Guardians and I think we should (based on SOE's comments that all fighter classes were designed to tank equally well). But we are not bad tanks either. I was tanking in a group yesterday (I'm a lvl 36 Monk) and I did just fine taking on lvl 40 and 41 ^ ^ mobs and their friends.

I can be patient waiting for balance and I do think we take more damage than we should with con orange/ red mobs. But for lower level mobs (that con green^^/ blue^^) we are choice tanks for healers that know better. They will use very little mana healing while a Guardian will take damage.

I find my most difficult part of the game is not game mechanics at all, its simply convincing other players that we are tanks, even other Monks I play with think I'm crazy to suggest we are tanks.

If guardians are avoiding as much or more than we, then they will tank the blue and green cons equally well -- that is to say, they won't get hit by them either. Besides, when was the last time anyone ever worried about who could or couldn't tank a green or blue mob?

FamilyManFirst has proved that deflection is not a 360 degree protection skill, so it is starting to look like it is the block enhancement that we suspected all along. Since Guardians get parry and defense buffs, and since they can use tower shields with 806 shield factor (maybe higher I don't know), I can't imagine that our deflection is doing any better for us than that.

If Guardians get more HPs, more mitigation, and the same amount of avoidance (if not more), then they are the preferred choice for a tank hands down, without a doubt. If there is always only one choice for a tank, a tank that will suit all healers and all groups regardless of their make-up, then why have 5 other fighter sub-classes?

We are tanks, there is no arguing that. We have taunting skills, defensive skills, damage absorption skills, and we can avoid some damage. But given a choice between a guardian, or even a berserker, who would choose us?

Whatever happened to "equal but different"?

Xanus · 03-04-2005, 02:33 AM

The answer is so simple and you guys are going to be way PO'd when I explain what's going on here.1)Why are guardian's avoiding better than you?Answer: DEFENSE SKILL. It has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with their AC. It's about their defense skill rating. Guardians can increase their defense skill via their buffs much higher than a Monk can via his buffs. Defense skill is the PRIMARY stat used in determining hit/miss of mobs. The game always checks this stat first. If the mob beats this stat the game then does a check of AC value to determine how hard the hit will be against you. That's when the lesser damage that a guard takes comes into play.This oversight on sony's part has created an uneven shift. Guardians not only can absorb damage better which they should, but they get the best of both worlds in ALSO being able to avoid better.It's a game balance issue that could easily be addressed by removing all of their stackable defense skill increasing buffs and instead replacing them with AC buffs. I hope this will dispell alot of error going on where I've seen monks try to figure out why the guards are avoiding better than you are.If you want to see what I'm talking about just have the guard in question in your test remove his DEFENSE SKILL increasing buffs and he will start getting smoked!Later when you guys get the Spider stance, you'll see you're tanking ability improve by leaps and bounds because it adds I think 15 to defense skill. It still doesn't match how high a Guard can pump his but it's a little better.

Message Edited by Xanusus on 03-03-2005 01:57 PM

Gaige · 03-04-2005, 02:35 AM

Xanusus wrote:
The answer is so simple and you guys are going to be way PO'd when I explain what's going on here.

1)Why are guardian's avoiding better than you?

Answer: DEFENSE SKILL. It has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with their AC. It's about their defense skill rating. Guardians can increase their defense skill via their buffs much higher than a Monk can via his buffs. Defense skill is the PRIMARY stat used in determining hit/miss of mobs. The game always checks this stat first. If the mob beats this stat the game then does a check of AC value to determine how hard the hit will be against you. That's when the lesser damage that guards take comes into play.

This oversight on sony's part has created an uneven shift. Guardians not only can absord damage better which they should, but they get the best of both worlds in ALSO being able to avoid better.

It's a game balance issue that could easily be addressed by removing all of their stackable defense skill increasing buffs and instead replacing them with AC buffs. I hope this will dispell alot of error going on where I've seen monks try to figure out why the guards are avoiding better than you are.

If you want to see what I'm talking about just have the guard in question in your test remove his DEFENSE SKILL increasing buffs and he will start getting smoked!

Later when you guys get the Spider stance, you'll see you're tanking ability inprove by leaps and bounds because it adds I think 15 to defense skill. It still doesn't match how high a Guard can pump his but it's a little better.

Great point and post. I agree that the guardian defensive buffs should be moved into AC buffs, so that they are utilizing their mitigation and not all defensive skills.

Jenj · 03-04-2005, 02:58 AM

NeVeRLiFt wrote:
I'm a lvl 38 Monk with the best equipment money can buy, I have all adept 1 or III and 3 masters and use Sweeping Crane stance.
I can post screen shots are give more info on my equipment if need be.

You might want to try tanking with Brawler's Stance vs Sweeping Crane. Everytime I have tested Sweeping Crane while tanking, Brawler's Stance was significantly better since it adds to both defense and deflection.

-Jenjer

Xanus · 03-04-2005, 03:24 AM

On a side note Gage.. I notice you over in the Guard forums and other tank forums quite abit. I see you're wondering about raid tanks and the guard always being the defacto choice.Whenever you guys get up in lvls and begin raiding, YOU should be the MT not the guards. The uber leet guards who see this will undoubtedly flame me for saying that but Monks make better MT's on the melee raid mobs.Try this out SMILEY

(MT group)1)Monk(MT/Spider Stance -easier time at controlling aggro because of damage)2)Guardian(off tanks adds and keeps his defense skill buffs on group)3)Bruiser/Zerker(avoidance buffage thrown on you)4)Troubador(Swan's song, Ivigorating Opus)5)Warden(DustStorm maintained and the occasional regen when damage happens)6)Mystic/Defiler(Wards - Defiler/harbringer - Mystic/Enduring Breath)

Message Edited by Xanusus on 03-03-2005 02:27 PM

Bur · 03-04-2005, 04:14 AM

Guardians are really in for a nerfing to tell you the truth (and I don't really like to say anyone needs to be nerfed). The other day I was wacking stuff in RoV (golems, white-yellow) with a full group. I tanked a few (ate a good deal of cleric mana doing so). A guardian walked up.. pulled one.. decimated it.. never dropped below 80%. What teh fek? I can understand them being better tanks but having the evasion we should have and tons better mitigation? Ugh.

NeVeRLi · 03-04-2005, 06:47 AM

I can tell you this, you will never see a guardian take over 800 dmg from that golem in RoV, and I know when I was there the blue con golems would knock the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] out of me and get many a lucky streaks going. My guild mates fondly call me bait as a joke now and not tank SMILEY

I dont like to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] or see anyone nerfed but the facts there and SoE has nerfed our agility and deflection to the point we get hit more and take more dmg. You go group for hours on end, 8-12 hours (cough.. yes some weekends I power game) and you will see whats going on. Are deflection and our main skill agility are what make us special and as it stands its whats holding us back.

GymRat · 03-04-2005, 08:10 AM

I would really like to see them take another hard look at how we take damage. I want them to put us back on the agi defense and rather than nerf it to hell fix it properly. I want to avoid damage by having it miss, me making it miss, or me turning the attack back on the attacker. Instead the typical response is BROAD SCALE NERF which seems to be their answer to everything because it's easy and doesnt require extra thought and work. I dont want to see guardians nerfed why punish them? Just put us back up where we should be....if I'm not mistaken AGI also helps determine how often we hit a creature? If thats the case we took a hose on that one to with the nerf.

NeVeRLi · 03-04-2005, 08:57 AM

Since the patches I miss about 15% more and get hit by stuff that even cons grey to me now... and if its a caster I dont care if its 15 lvl's below me I dont mess with them, they stiffle/root/stun and go nuke happy SMILEY

the way monsters nuke now is out of line and making them way over powered IMHO and this crazy nuking is even worse than monsters that are hitting people with scout/assassin/ranger special attacks that are only usuable when they are stealthed or behind the person and the monsters are clearing in front of you and not stealthed.

Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on 03-03-2005 10:58 PM

Ethelwo · 03-04-2005, 11:02 AM

I think the point he his getting at is that heavy armor is supposed to work by mitigating damage while monks in light armor are supposed to avoid it altogether. He was getting hit just as often as the guardian was, but for more damage. He is right and I have noticed the same thing though I have not tested it out. I play a 30 monk and a L28 Zerker. My Zerker at L28 can tank much better then my 30 monk on the same mobs. Something is broke on monks and bruisers avoidance and has been since the agility nerf. SOE did this nerf to make it so scouts couldn't tank as well as fighters. The problem was it effected monks and bruiser in the same way it effected the scouts. An unentended consequence maybe. They need to take another look at the whole avoidance issue on both Monks and Bruisers as it relates to the agility nerf ment to only effect the scouts. Increasing the damage mitigation of light armor does nothing to repair the avoidance problem created by the nerf. They should one, either make Monks and Bruisers dependant on agility for power like scouts and call them a dps class thus removing all pretense of them being fighters. Or two, fix the agility mechanic so that the Monks and Bruiser go back to the old standard and scouts don't. this may be impossible to code so I would say the first change is now nessary. Monks and Bruiser need to become agility fighters and leave the strength fighters behind. At least this will allow them to make new trait selections that will give them the power they need to play dps. Providing SOE resets these trait selections for them after the change. The agility on my Monk is much higher then my strength. I would prefer to gain power from that stat if things remain as they are. My buffs provide agility not strength.

Sort · 03-05-2005, 07:33 AM

A monk tanking better than a guardian....do I understand that you want to tank like a guardian and still do as much damage......thats insane!...can we say godly class...oh sure a man wearing woven armor should be able to tank like a man wearing plate or vanguard....that doesnt even make since..the guardians dont do nearly as much damage as we do if you play the monk right...I really dont agree that a monk...should be able to tank the same as a class that is geared torwards tanking..that is just dumb...absolutly dumb period I play a monk in every game I have the chance and I have been dissatisfied with every monk that has been made in games.....but this monk finaly was done well and right...stop complaining about what this monk cant do and open your eyes to see what it can do...hes good in every situation in combat..ultimate 1 on 1 fighter.

NeVeRLi · 03-05-2005, 10:57 AM

The point is a man wearing bulky heavy armor with low agility is supposed to be hit, the armor keeps them safe and absorbs the damage. The problem we are seeing now in the game is the way the monsters are not even hitting.A monk who is wearing light armor, with very high agility and our skills are not supposed to be hit as much (and when we get hit we take more damage) but as it stands we are getting hit and we are getting hit more and we take double the damage cause of our armor. I hope all see's the problem here and understands why this is wrong. When the game mechanic's are broke so that a heavy armor wearing low agility fighter is not getting hit and a agile high agility monk is getting hit alot more then there is the problem and SoE needs to fix it.

Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on 03-05-2005 12:59 AM

Thunderbr · 03-05-2005, 11:55 AM

Fact is a Guardian is a Guardian, they're meant to tank, you're meant to be a mostly DPS/slight secondary tank...if you wanted to have amazing tanking skills then you probably went with the wrong class choice.

Gaige · 03-05-2005, 12:27 PM

Thunderbrew wrote:
Fact is a Guardian is a Guardian, they're meant to tank, you're meant to be a mostly DPS/slight secondary tank...if you wanted to have amazing tanking skills then you probably went with the wrong class choice.

Please don't post false information in our forum.

Monks = tanks.

We are not DPS nor slight secondary tanks.

There is no "wrong" class choice, as all fighters are tanks.

SomeDudeCRO · 03-05-2005, 03:09 PM

Fact is a Monk is a tank, all fighters are tanks.Atleast we are better than Zerkers SMILEY

SageMarrow · 03-05-2005, 06:54 PM

lol crazy xripperx is the only one with any realistic mentality- lol -

guardians are fine - either they take our dps or take our tanking and give us more dps - we are hybrid - we can tank and well especially in full grps - but by design we have a split roll you tend to ignore the fact that

MONK/BRUISER = MT = NO GUARDIAN in the average grp - who wants a guard for dps if you have a choice

GUARDIAN = MT = MONK/BRUISER great dps from behind or flanking w/o question-

lol after tonight im a firm believer in the 1MT phylosophy. if you wanna be a meath shield go play a meat shield = period = no corrolation- if you will sacrifice the dps for the tanking ability then say that - maybe soe will listen

but my server has a younger community that has learned quickly and openly dislikes tanking by monks/bruisers- we can and we do = but all who have been asked or voice their opinion say take the tanking ability and gimme the dps and some utility that matters. scouts always have a place - wiz/warlocks always have a place- healers - dont get me started - the warriors are thinning by the day and gaurdians and beserkers are running all over the [Removed for Content] place.

when it comes raid time or exp grp time - you will be overlooked more often that you already are now if you are just another tank for the sake of tanking... right now we get invited to raid just for being a monk- or bruiser nothing else required- go punch somn or hit it with ur stick - not gear and ac comparisons at all - not for being useless like 4 guardians would be to a raid- you can squeeze in either way from the front or the back - leave it alone before they turn you into scouts!! (its enough yall get invis lol)

more than 2-3 guards dont go to raid at all - unless its a guild thing and they are doing some quest isht . if you wanna be thrown in that category of too many tanks - dont need him - category - then go ahead - i for darn sure dont - stick to managing fights building relationships = and doing damage and increasing grp flexibilty by managing adds.

Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-05-2005 06:00 AM

Gaige · 03-06-2005, 12:27 AM

SageMarrow wrote:

blah blah blah stuff about being dps

1) I can't WAIT until our DPS is lowered so people like you who spout off about "being wanted for our DPS" will just shut up. We are going to be average DPS, not great DPS. This is by design. Monks should not outdamage scouts/mages despite the scenario. DPS is their job, not ours.

2) Saying "omg if monks could tank no one would want guardians" is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Currently the brawler tree (and every other fighter) can reliably MT for xp groups from lvls 1 to 50. I know because I've done it. Yet plenty of non-guilded guardians are reaching 50 daily in xp groups, despite the number of "uber" monks with their great tanking and amazing DPS.

That alone proves that adjusting raid content to be tankable by all the classes wouldn't hurt anything.

All it does is finish up the balance issues with the fighter class and insure we can be picked for raids for our intended role (tank) and not the scouts intended role (melee dps and utility).

So take your WE ARE THE GREATEST DPS EVER, WE SHOULDN'T TANK GUARDIANS SHOULD! to the guardian forums and tell them how great they are.

SomeDudeCRO · 03-06-2005, 03:07 AM

They're simply idiots really, plain and simple. It's time for someone to just step up and call them what they are. They don't have the necesarry skills in comprehension to particpate in a discussion, and attempting to do so is completely futile.Ideally there shouldn't be an outright best tank amoung the fighter tree, each should just have their own flavor and negligible differences in offsetting balancing abilities. Fair-minded individuals would agree (and many do, even on the guardian forums), and so would the devs as it's in their interests to make a better game by doing so. Although in my personal opinion from the parses I see in game and the players I'm grouping with, we don't have it as bad as Berserkers. They take more damage than us even with a shield, and dual wielding there is no comparison. Fighters in general need tweaking, not just us, particularly on the dps we all do save maybe guardians.

Brew01 · 03-06-2005, 08:50 AM

SageMarrow wrote:

lol crazy xripperx is the only one with any realistic mentality- lol -

guardians are fine - either they take our dps or take our tanking and give us more dps - we are hybrid - we can tank and well especially in full grps - but by design we have a split roll you tend to ignore the fact that

MONK/BRUISER = MT = NO GUARDIAN in the average grp - who wants a guard for dps if you have a choice

GUARDIAN = MT = MONK/BRUISER great dps from behind or flanking w/o question-

lol after tonight im a firm believer in the 1MT phylosophy. if you wanna be a meath shield go play a meat shield = period = no corrolation- if you will sacrifice the dps for the tanking ability then say that - maybe soe will listen

but my server has a younger community that has learned quickly and openly dislikes tanking by monks/bruisers- we can and we do = but all who have been asked or voice their opinion say take the tanking ability and gimme the dps and some utility that matters. scouts always have a place - wiz/warlocks always have a place- healers - dont get me started - the warriors are thinning by the day and gaurdians and beserkers are running all over the [Removed for Content] place.

when it comes raid time or exp grp time - you will be overlooked more often that you already are now if you are just another tank for the sake of tanking... right now we get invited to raid just for being a monk- or bruiser nothing else required- go punch somn or hit it with ur stick - not gear and ac comparisons at all - not for being useless like 4 guardians would be to a raid- you can squeeze in either way from the front or the back - leave it alone before they turn you into scouts!! (its enough yall get invis lol)

more than 2-3 guards dont go to raid at all - unless its a guild thing and they are doing some quest isht . if you wanna be thrown in that category of too many tanks - dont need him - category - then go ahead - i for darn sure dont - stick to managing fights building relationships = and doing damage and increasing grp flexibilty by managing adds.

Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-05-2005 06:00 AM

I started my monk Wanting to tank I strive to be the best tank a monk can be Its not easy but its possible. I make most my own grps my wife is a Temp so its not hard just add dps and I've got a good grp. Currently I'm lvl 39 and can tank pretty much anything a plate class my lvl can I take a bit more damage and use more mana when doing it but I do it. I hardly ever go out of my circle of friends for grp members due to the fact that when they realize I'm tanking they start to [Removed for Content] me off with the "LOL the monks tanking" BS. It bothers me to no end that my fellow Monks post such dribble as We are DPS not TANKS. I've compaired my DPS with a Guardians in a typical pick up grp situation with them tanking and me as DPS you know what the Guard wasn't far off from me as pure DPS. The only way we out DPS a Guard is by Spaming our specials (which isn't something I enjoy doing). Why play a class that takes skill in tanking only to be a button spaming LOW dps class??? I think if you wanted a DPS/Utility class perhaps YOU should reroll NOT the Monks who want to play the role SOE has described for us as TANKs....

SageMarrow · 03-06-2005, 02:28 PM

well actually im a bruiser and im tired of this argument

mnks/bruisers are hybrids = and i dont know what guardian you were tanking with but i know every guard ive ever tanked with had about 1/4 of my dps- i average 100+ w/ 2h blunt EVERY FIGHT- and i take a VERY SMALL dps hit when tanking in a full grp buffed to max -- with no down time - so maybe you need to twink ur gear bro.

either way lol - yall can take ur kung fu tank and walking around in the robe of the invoker arses and shove them- i never tried to make an argument out of this- its a matter of opinion and you wanting somn that you wont get lol

so im letting it go on that note - every class has a hybrid type black sheep- so monks put ureselves in an enchanters shoes = useless in a good way. flexible enough to fill a roll- but actually can be done without - funny .:smileyvery-happy:

we will be left alone if anything - they will give us our cutsie armor and shoo us under the table and just boost scouts combat arts. the simple and correct solution - hopefully they will come out and say what class is meant for what and give better descriptions on soloability etc so all you UBER TANKING MONKS will re roll or quit - cause you didnt get ur way 0 so when that happens and gage vanishes from the boards -

it will be irony in its finest - lol - everyone i meet in RL and in game that are monks or bruisers openly say that these arguments are funny and think all the mnk tanks are idiots for even putting up this argument - it doesnt even make sense on a lore level - and i promise that if you did a survey and people who werent afraid actaully get involved in this fiasco would voice thier opinion you would see the truth.

perfect mix of a scout and a tank.... HYBRID CLASS enough said. (yes its in pink for attention purposes)

Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-06-2005 01:32 AM

NeVeRLi · 03-06-2005, 02:58 PM

The question is still not answered guys SMILEY

Why does a agile light armor wearing monk with high agility and deflection skill get hit more than a warrior with heavy bulky armor and low agility? Yes monks will and should take more damage but the problem is we get hit to much now. I expect to see the guardian getting hit and his armor absorbing the damage but this is just not the case now, with their self buffs that raise their defense skill and the high level tower shields they dodge or block almost all attacks. Who cares about dps or how long it takes to kill something when you dont get hit or take any damage from the hit in the first place.I'm just asking some kind of balance and this nerf to agility and our deflection has broke the game balance. Monks and scouts should beable to avoid attacks better and they are not! We take more damage dammit and get hit more! SMILEY

Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on 03-06-2005 04:58 AM

03-02-2005, 06:46 PM	#3
Tay Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 35	Just a word of advice, you may wish to rephrase your post somewhat.You said:"The results was stunning... the guardian just did not get hit!! The guardian barely ever went into the yellow with his hit points, he did take a long time to kill the bear. When the guardian did get hit he took less damage than me almost half the damage or more (example if I took 400 dmg he was taking 200 dmg or less from the same hit). Ok ignoring the fact he took less damage each hit... he just flat out did not get hit period! The bears are blue ^^ to both him and me."One min you say he never went into the yellow and seemed to take less dmg each hit, then you go on to say he never got hit....something doesnt ring true here.If I were a SOE person I wouldnt pay much attention to this tbh...a rephrasing of a few bits and your sorted. __________________ Splitpaw Gnome/Fury 31/Provisioner 31 Barbarian/Monk 40

03-03-2005, 03:06 PM	#6
NeVeRLi General Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In the shadows of the Megacorporations Posts: 113	And while your at it fix it so monsters dont use scout/assassin/ranger attacks when their not stealthed or in behind of you. Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on 03-03-2005 06:12 AM

03-03-2005, 04:10 PM	#7
Inv Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 62	All I know atm is We take a good bit worse then plate tanks over all. ( in reference to healing needed) Now I am not saying we can't tank before I get trolled to death at 46 I tank a bit less l in healing aspects to a friend who is 43 plate tank. Its mainly then skill hits that seem to bypass my defenses rather easily. The giving mobs large hits and making their normal hits is annoying as all ya do is watch for spikes and hope to not eat a few at once. The mitigation helped so we can tank better but now I see tons healers and Medium armor people strapping on light gear for stats and not a huge loss of AC lol and its was hard enough to find a 40+ light drop! It seems alot that tank well are working Agi way up with buffs to tank on par. Its depressing that we have to abuse a system to pull the same level of tanking. For now if I focus and time my skills right I dps which I enjoy as a monk. I enjoying Dpsing and 2nd tanking. I do worry as I tank but for now its not to bad. I pretty much only get invites to tank mobs blue of maybe even lol yellow and up no one wants a brawler it seems. Well as it is I have no clue where to go I don't want to lose our dps skills as I have seen a SK pull close to same dps while main tanking LOL But as it is now its liveable just wish that skill attacks were brought in line!!!! Spell avoidance doesn't work either as far as I am concerned . heck look at the drops I see plate drops 90% of the time I swear lol. Well I am still 50/50 but its liveable The annoying things is watching plates run over green^^ and such and not even be phased where I am usally runnig for my life. And yes My avoidance is about identical to all the plates I grp with and that is where the tanking gap is it seems. Well we shall see what the future holds

03-03-2005, 04:57 PM	#8
Victor_Hugo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 14	NeVeRLiFt wrote: And while your at it fix it so monsters dont use scout/assassin/ranger attacks when their not stealthed or in behind of you. Amen. __________________ __________

03-03-2005, 07:12 PM	#9
Ala Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 185	I agree, we do not tank as well as Guardians and I think we should (based on SOE's comments that all fighter classes were designed to tank equally well). But we are not bad tanks either. I was tanking in a group yesterday (I'm a lvl 36 Monk) and I did just fine taking on lvl 40 and 41 ^ ^ mobs and their friends. I can be patient waiting for balance and I do think we take more damage than we should with con orange/ red mobs. But for lower level mobs (that con green^^/ blue^^) we are choice tanks for healers that know better. They will use very little mana healing while a Guardian will take damage. I find my most difficult part of the game is not game mechanics at all, its simply convincing other players that we are tanks, even other Monks I play with think I'm crazy to suggest we are tanks. __________________ -Retired from EQ2. Have fun everyone!

03-02-2005, 06:07 PM	#1
NeVeRLi General Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In the shadows of the Megacorporations Posts: 113	I'm a lvl 38 Monk with the best equipment money can buy, I have all adept 1 or III and 3 masters and use Sweeping Crane stance.I can post screen shots are give more info on my equipment if need be.Ok the test was simple me and my friend the mystic went and fought the lvl 35^^ great briarpaw bears in EL. The results was they knocked the living [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] out of me, and I killed them fast. These bears hit me very hard and the repost was almost always nasty unless they went out of power. I killed them very fast considering it was just me and the mystic.Ok the next step involved my friend the mystic getting a guardian to group with him and then go fight the same bears. The guardian had good equipment, not the best and the jewelry was really sub par. The results was stunning... the guardian just did not get hit!! The guardian barely ever went into the yellow with his hit points, he did take a long time to kill the bear. When the guardian did get hit he took less damage than me almost half the damage or more (example if I took 400 dmg he was taking 200 dmg or less from the same hit). Ok ignoring the fact he took less damage each hit... he just flat out did not get hit period! The bears are blue ^^ to both him and me. Fact is monks deflection is broken and not working right and SoE thinks more mitigation for light armor is the answer! WRONG!!! His AC was 5600+ and mines right at 4900+ and with my buffs I'm 5400 almost. My buff's run out fast and use power to keep them going.I need my power to use my special attacks so I can kill the monster fast (and I do great dps and kill stuff fast). Ok so this is not enough of a test for you? (I have grouped with berserkers and guardians in runnyeye for hours on end and saw first hand how good their armor helps them and the fact that with their higher AC ??? they just flat out dont get hit.So we did another test, we went to the condemed catacombs and fought the ancient watcher lvl 33^^^ x2. The results speak for themself.Me took around 800 dmg per regular crushing hit from the ancient watcher and its special was hitting me for over 2000 dmg (record high dmg being 2882)The wizard lvl 38 and the best equipment he can have for his lvl was taking 1,700 dmg per regular crushing hit. Needless to say he was dead in 1 or 2 hits.The guardian was taking 400 dmg or less per regular crushing hit. And he was not getting hit as much as I did ( I guess the extra 600+ AC he has over me just makes him not get hit).Ok so the fact is the guardian can pretty much solo the lvl 35^^ bears in EL almost and at lvl 39 now can solo them and not ever go below 90% hp. While me on the other hand at lvl 39 can also now solo the bears but my health is lucky to stay over 75% and can go under 50% in the blink of an eye thanks to the lucky dmg spikes we take. (play a monk and you know first hand what I'm talking about and how fast we can go into the red). At lvl 39 the bears are green to us now.Our deflection is not working as intended and dual welding or using fast delay weapons or spamming your specials with no thoughts or tactics will get you reposted so much and so fast you will die from it. I'm stunned as to why a person wearing heavy bulking armor is getting hit less than a monk who has alot higher agility and only 600 or so less AC. Guess we are just dps for now.I love playing a monk and feel even though we get hit more and take more dmg we are a good class... but its just not right for a agile light armor wearing monk to get hit more and to boot take over double the damage. I also wanna ask you what changed so much from me going from lvl 38 to getting my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] kicked by this bear??? To me being lvl 39 and now kicking its [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]... still taking some very hard hits not uncommon to see 800 crushing dmg from these things.PS: this is just a small test that me and some friends did and some of my opinion based on how I feel about monks and our broken deflection.Thanks and hope SoE can fix this issue. Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on 03-02-2005 08:09 AM

03-02-2005, 06:45 PM	#2
xrippe Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 341	This is an old topic, Gaurdians should tank better. All their skills are geared for ac and taunting. They have better mitigation. They are Sony's mile stone for calibrating all fighter types. If we keep beating this horse Sony will make us tank just as good and do the same damage.. wich is not impressive... One starred for my oppinion and game experiance lol.. here let me change it around so I "fit in" yeah we are so broken, we suck hardcore. Screw Sony... Message Edited by xripperx on 03-03-2005 05:46 AM

03-02-2005, 06:55 PM	#4
RadricTyc Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 362	post logs.

03-03-2005, 03:05 PM	#5
NeVeRLi General Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In the shadows of the Megacorporations Posts: 113	Well when AC beats outs high agility and our deflection then I consider it broke and better mitigation for our light armor is not the fix.And yes my wording is a little crazy but the fact remains he gets hit less.A guardian at 39 with all feysteel armor and good jewelry will have somewhere around 5400-5800 AC and a monk with the best armor good jewelery will have around 4900-5300 AC give or take... and with the monks deflection and agility being broken we get hit more and miss more. A monk should not get hit more! The fact we take more damage is fine but getting hit more cause SoE nerfed our agility and deflection is not right! And whats changing so much from lvl 38 to 39 thats making it allow me to solo the lvl 35^^ great bears in EL?[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] just fix it SoE!

03-03-2005, 07:26 PM	#10
RadricTyc Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 362	Alarr wrote: I agree, we do not tank as well as Guardians and I think we should (based on SOE's comments that all fighter classes were designed to tank equally well). But we are not bad tanks either. I was tanking in a group yesterday (I'm a lvl 36 Monk) and I did just fine taking on lvl 40 and 41 ^ ^ mobs and their friends. I can be patient waiting for balance and I do think we take more damage than we should with con orange/ red mobs. But for lower level mobs (that con green^^/ blue^^) we are choice tanks for healers that know better. They will use very little mana healing while a Guardian will take damage. I find my most difficult part of the game is not game mechanics at all, its simply convincing other players that we are tanks, even other Monks I play with think I'm crazy to suggest we are tanks. If guardians are avoiding as much or more than we, then they will tank the blue and green cons equally well -- that is to say, they won't get hit by them either. Besides, when was the last time anyone ever worried about who could or couldn't tank a green or blue mob? FamilyManFirst has proved that deflection is not a 360 degree protection skill, so it is starting to look like it is the block enhancement that we suspected all along. Since Guardians get parry and defense buffs, and since they can use tower shields with 806 shield factor (maybe higher I don't know), I can't imagine that our deflection is doing any better for us than that. If Guardians get more HPs, more mitigation, and the same amount of avoidance (if not more), then they are the preferred choice for a tank hands down, without a doubt. If there is always only one choice for a tank, a tank that will suit all healers and all groups regardless of their make-up, then why have 5 other fighter sub-classes? We are tanks, there is no arguing that. We have taunting skills, defensive skills, damage absorption skills, and we can avoid some damage. But given a choice between a guardian, or even a berserker, who would choose us? Whatever happened to "equal but different"?

03-04-2005, 02:33 AM	#11
Xanus General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 95	The answer is so simple and you guys are going to be way PO'd when I explain what's going on here.1)Why are guardian's avoiding better than you?Answer: DEFENSE SKILL. It has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with their AC. It's about their defense skill rating. Guardians can increase their defense skill via their buffs much higher than a Monk can via his buffs. Defense skill is the PRIMARY stat used in determining hit/miss of mobs. The game always checks this stat first. If the mob beats this stat the game then does a check of AC value to determine how hard the hit will be against you. That's when the lesser damage that a guard takes comes into play.This oversight on sony's part has created an uneven shift. Guardians not only can absorb damage better which they should, but they get the best of both worlds in ALSO being able to avoid better.It's a game balance issue that could easily be addressed by removing all of their stackable defense skill increasing buffs and instead replacing them with AC buffs. I hope this will dispell alot of error going on where I've seen monks try to figure out why the guards are avoiding better than you are.If you want to see what I'm talking about just have the guard in question in your test remove his DEFENSE SKILL increasing buffs and he will start getting smoked!Later when you guys get the Spider stance, you'll see you're tanking ability improve by leaps and bounds because it adds I think 15 to defense skill. It still doesn't match how high a Guard can pump his but it's a little better. Message Edited by Xanusus on 03-03-2005 01:57 PM

03-04-2005, 02:35 AM	#12
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Xanusus wrote: The answer is so simple and you guys are going to be way PO'd when I explain what's going on here. 1)Why are guardian's avoiding better than you? Answer: DEFENSE SKILL. It has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with their AC. It's about their defense skill rating. Guardians can increase their defense skill via their buffs much higher than a Monk can via his buffs. Defense skill is the PRIMARY stat used in determining hit/miss of mobs. The game always checks this stat first. If the mob beats this stat the game then does a check of AC value to determine how hard the hit will be against you. That's when the lesser damage that guards take comes into play. This oversight on sony's part has created an uneven shift. Guardians not only can absord damage better which they should, but they get the best of both worlds in ALSO being able to avoid better. It's a game balance issue that could easily be addressed by removing all of their stackable defense skill increasing buffs and instead replacing them with AC buffs. I hope this will dispell alot of error going on where I've seen monks try to figure out why the guards are avoiding better than you are. If you want to see what I'm talking about just have the guard in question in your test remove his DEFENSE SKILL increasing buffs and he will start getting smoked! Later when you guys get the Spider stance, you'll see you're tanking ability inprove by leaps and bounds because it adds I think 15 to defense skill. It still doesn't match how high a Guard can pump his but it's a little better. Great point and post. I agree that the guardian defensive buffs should be moved into AC buffs, so that they are utilizing their mitigation and not all defensive skills. __________________

03-04-2005, 02:58 AM	#13
Jenj Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 106	NeVeRLiFt wrote: I'm a lvl 38 Monk with the best equipment money can buy, I have all adept 1 or III and 3 masters and use Sweeping Crane stance. I can post screen shots are give more info on my equipment if need be. You might want to try tanking with Brawler's Stance vs Sweeping Crane. Everytime I have tested Sweeping Crane while tanking, Brawler's Stance was significantly better since it adds to both defense and deflection. -Jenjer __________________

03-04-2005, 03:24 AM	#14
Xanus General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 95	On a side note Gage.. I notice you over in the Guard forums and other tank forums quite abit. I see you're wondering about raid tanks and the guard always being the defacto choice.Whenever you guys get up in lvls and begin raiding, YOU should be the MT not the guards. The uber leet guards who see this will undoubtedly flame me for saying that but Monks make better MT's on the melee raid mobs.Try this out(MT group)1)Monk(MT/Spider Stance -easier time at controlling aggro because of damage)2)Guardian(off tanks adds and keeps his defense skill buffs on group)3)Bruiser/Zerker(avoidance buffage thrown on you)4)Troubador(Swan's song, Ivigorating Opus)5)Warden(DustStorm maintained and the occasional regen when damage happens)6)Mystic/Defiler(Wards - Defiler/harbringer - Mystic/Enduring Breath) Message Edited by Xanusus on 03-03-2005 02:27 PM

03-04-2005, 04:14 AM	#15
Bur Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 106	Guardians are really in for a nerfing to tell you the truth (and I don't really like to say anyone needs to be nerfed). The other day I was wacking stuff in RoV (golems, white-yellow) with a full group. I tanked a few (ate a good deal of cleric mana doing so). A guardian walked up.. pulled one.. decimated it.. never dropped below 80%. What teh fek? I can understand them being better tanks but having the evasion we should have and tons better mitigation? Ugh.

03-04-2005, 06:47 AM	#16
NeVeRLi General Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In the shadows of the Megacorporations Posts: 113	I can tell you this, you will never see a guardian take over 800 dmg from that golem in RoV, and I know when I was there the blue con golems would knock the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] out of me and get many a lucky streaks going. My guild mates fondly call me bait as a joke now and not tank I dont like to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] or see anyone nerfed but the facts there and SoE has nerfed our agility and deflection to the point we get hit more and take more dmg. You go group for hours on end, 8-12 hours (cough.. yes some weekends I power game) and you will see whats going on. Are deflection and our main skill agility are what make us special and as it stands its whats holding us back.

03-04-2005, 08:10 AM	#17
GymRat Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 23	I would really like to see them take another hard look at how we take damage. I want them to put us back on the agi defense and rather than nerf it to hell fix it properly. I want to avoid damage by having it miss, me making it miss, or me turning the attack back on the attacker. Instead the typical response is BROAD SCALE NERF which seems to be their answer to everything because it's easy and doesnt require extra thought and work. I dont want to see guardians nerfed why punish them? Just put us back up where we should be....if I'm not mistaken AGI also helps determine how often we hit a creature? If thats the case we took a hose on that one to with the nerf.

03-04-2005, 08:57 AM	#18
NeVeRLi General Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In the shadows of the Megacorporations Posts: 113	Since the patches I miss about 15% more and get hit by stuff that even cons grey to me now... and if its a caster I dont care if its 15 lvl's below me I dont mess with them, they stiffle/root/stun and go nuke happy the way monsters nuke now is out of line and making them way over powered IMHO and this crazy nuking is even worse than monsters that are hitting people with scout/assassin/ranger special attacks that are only usuable when they are stealthed or behind the person and the monsters are clearing in front of you and not stealthed. Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on 03-03-2005 10:58 PM

03-04-2005, 11:02 AM	#19
Ethelwo General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 212	I think the point he his getting at is that heavy armor is supposed to work by mitigating damage while monks in light armor are supposed to avoid it altogether. He was getting hit just as often as the guardian was, but for more damage. He is right and I have noticed the same thing though I have not tested it out. I play a 30 monk and a L28 Zerker. My Zerker at L28 can tank much better then my 30 monk on the same mobs. Something is broke on monks and bruisers avoidance and has been since the agility nerf. SOE did this nerf to make it so scouts couldn't tank as well as fighters. The problem was it effected monks and bruiser in the same way it effected the scouts. An unentended consequence maybe. They need to take another look at the whole avoidance issue on both Monks and Bruisers as it relates to the agility nerf ment to only effect the scouts. Increasing the damage mitigation of light armor does nothing to repair the avoidance problem created by the nerf. They should one, either make Monks and Bruisers dependant on agility for power like scouts and call them a dps class thus removing all pretense of them being fighters. Or two, fix the agility mechanic so that the Monks and Bruiser go back to the old standard and scouts don't. this may be impossible to code so I would say the first change is now nessary. Monks and Bruiser need to become agility fighters and leave the strength fighters behind. At least this will allow them to make new trait selections that will give them the power they need to play dps. Providing SOE resets these trait selections for them after the change. The agility on my Monk is much higher then my strength. I would prefer to gain power from that stat if things remain as they are. My buffs provide agility not strength.

03-05-2005, 07:33 AM	#20
Sort Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3	A monk tanking better than a guardian....do I understand that you want to tank like a guardian and still do as much damage......thats insane!...can we say godly class...oh sure a man wearing woven armor should be able to tank like a man wearing plate or vanguard....that doesnt even make since..the guardians dont do nearly as much damage as we do if you play the monk right...I really dont agree that a monk...should be able to tank the same as a class that is geared torwards tanking..that is just dumb...absolutly dumb period I play a monk in every game I have the chance and I have been dissatisfied with every monk that has been made in games.....but this monk finaly was done well and right...stop complaining about what this monk cant do and open your eyes to see what it can do...hes good in every situation in combat..ultimate 1 on 1 fighter. __________________ You are no match for LORD GORLOCK!

03-05-2005, 10:57 AM	#21
NeVeRLi General Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In the shadows of the Megacorporations Posts: 113	The point is a man wearing bulky heavy armor with low agility is supposed to be hit, the armor keeps them safe and absorbs the damage. The problem we are seeing now in the game is the way the monsters are not even hitting.A monk who is wearing light armor, with very high agility and our skills are not supposed to be hit as much (and when we get hit we take more damage) but as it stands we are getting hit and we are getting hit more and we take double the damage cause of our armor. I hope all see's the problem here and understands why this is wrong. When the game mechanic's are broke so that a heavy armor wearing low agility fighter is not getting hit and a agile high agility monk is getting hit alot more then there is the problem and SoE needs to fix it. Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on 03-05-2005 12:59 AM

03-05-2005, 11:55 AM	#22
Thunderbr Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 74	Fact is a Guardian is a Guardian, they're meant to tank, you're meant to be a mostly DPS/slight secondary tank...if you wanted to have amazing tanking skills then you probably went with the wrong class choice.

03-05-2005, 12:27 PM	#23
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Thunderbrew wrote: Fact is a Guardian is a Guardian, they're meant to tank, you're meant to be a mostly DPS/slight secondary tank...if you wanted to have amazing tanking skills then you probably went with the wrong class choice. Please don't post false information in our forum. Monks = tanks. We are not DPS nor slight secondary tanks. There is no "wrong" class choice, as all fighters are tanks. __________________

03-05-2005, 03:09 PM	#24
SomeDudeCRO Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 283	Fact is a Monk is a tank, all fighters are tanks.Atleast we are better than Zerkers __________________ Lavomir 80 Monk of Crushbone 80 Provisioner

03-05-2005, 06:54 PM	#25
SageMarrow Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 958	lol crazy xripperx is the only one with any realistic mentality- lol - guardians are fine - either they take our dps or take our tanking and give us more dps - we are hybrid - we can tank and well especially in full grps - but by design we have a split roll you tend to ignore the fact that MONK/BRUISER = MT = NO GUARDIAN in the average grp - who wants a guard for dps if you have a choice GUARDIAN = MT = MONK/BRUISER great dps from behind or flanking w/o question- lol after tonight im a firm believer in the 1MT phylosophy. if you wanna be a meath shield go play a meat shield = period = no corrolation- if you will sacrifice the dps for the tanking ability then say that - maybe soe will listen but my server has a younger community that has learned quickly and openly dislikes tanking by monks/bruisers- we can and we do = but all who have been asked or voice their opinion say take the tanking ability and gimme the dps and some utility that matters. scouts always have a place - wiz/warlocks always have a place- healers - dont get me started - the warriors are thinning by the day and gaurdians and beserkers are running all over the [Removed for Content] place. when it comes raid time or exp grp time - you will be overlooked more often that you already are now if you are just another tank for the sake of tanking... right now we get invited to raid just for being a monk- or bruiser nothing else required- go punch somn or hit it with ur stick - not gear and ac comparisons at all - not for being useless like 4 guardians would be to a raid- you can squeeze in either way from the front or the back - leave it alone before they turn you into scouts!! (its enough yall get invis lol) more than 2-3 guards dont go to raid at all - unless its a guild thing and they are doing some quest isht . if you wanna be thrown in that category of too many tanks - dont need him - category - then go ahead - i for darn sure dont - stick to managing fights building relationships = and doing damage and increasing grp flexibilty by managing adds. Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-05-2005 06:00 AM

03-06-2005, 12:27 AM	#26
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	SageMarrow wrote: blah blah blah stuff about being dps 1) I can't WAIT until our DPS is lowered so people like you who spout off about "being wanted for our DPS" will just shut up. We are going to be average DPS, not great DPS. This is by design. Monks should not outdamage scouts/mages despite the scenario. DPS is their job, not ours. 2) Saying "omg if monks could tank no one would want guardians" is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Currently the brawler tree (and every other fighter) can reliably MT for xp groups from lvls 1 to 50. I know because I've done it. Yet plenty of non-guilded guardians are reaching 50 daily in xp groups, despite the number of "uber" monks with their great tanking and amazing DPS. That alone proves that adjusting raid content to be tankable by all the classes wouldn't hurt anything. All it does is finish up the balance issues with the fighter class and insure we can be picked for raids for our intended role (tank) and not the scouts intended role (melee dps and utility). So take your WE ARE THE GREATEST DPS EVER, WE SHOULDN'T TANK GUARDIANS SHOULD! to the guardian forums and tell them how great they are. __________________

03-06-2005, 03:07 AM	#27
SomeDudeCRO Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 283	They're simply idiots really, plain and simple. It's time for someone to just step up and call them what they are. They don't have the necesarry skills in comprehension to particpate in a discussion, and attempting to do so is completely futile.Ideally there shouldn't be an outright best tank amoung the fighter tree, each should just have their own flavor and negligible differences in offsetting balancing abilities. Fair-minded individuals would agree (and many do, even on the guardian forums), and so would the devs as it's in their interests to make a better game by doing so. Although in my personal opinion from the parses I see in game and the players I'm grouping with, we don't have it as bad as Berserkers. They take more damage than us even with a shield, and dual wielding there is no comparison. Fighters in general need tweaking, not just us, particularly on the dps we all do save maybe guardians. __________________ Lavomir 80 Monk of Crushbone 80 Provisioner

03-06-2005, 08:50 AM	#28
Brew01 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 52	SageMarrow wrote: lol crazy xripperx is the only one with any realistic mentality- lol - guardians are fine - either they take our dps or take our tanking and give us more dps - we are hybrid - we can tank and well especially in full grps - but by design we have a split roll you tend to ignore the fact that MONK/BRUISER = MT = NO GUARDIAN in the average grp - who wants a guard for dps if you have a choice GUARDIAN = MT = MONK/BRUISER great dps from behind or flanking w/o question- lol after tonight im a firm believer in the 1MT phylosophy. if you wanna be a meath shield go play a meat shield = period = no corrolation- if you will sacrifice the dps for the tanking ability then say that - maybe soe will listen but my server has a younger community that has learned quickly and openly dislikes tanking by monks/bruisers- we can and we do = but all who have been asked or voice their opinion say take the tanking ability and gimme the dps and some utility that matters. scouts always have a place - wiz/warlocks always have a place- healers - dont get me started - the warriors are thinning by the day and gaurdians and beserkers are running all over the [Removed for Content] place. when it comes raid time or exp grp time - you will be overlooked more often that you already are now if you are just another tank for the sake of tanking... right now we get invited to raid just for being a monk- or bruiser nothing else required- go punch somn or hit it with ur stick - not gear and ac comparisons at all - not for being useless like 4 guardians would be to a raid- you can squeeze in either way from the front or the back - leave it alone before they turn you into scouts!! (its enough yall get invis lol) more than 2-3 guards dont go to raid at all - unless its a guild thing and they are doing some quest isht . if you wanna be thrown in that category of too many tanks - dont need him - category - then go ahead - i for darn sure dont - stick to managing fights building relationships = and doing damage and increasing grp flexibilty by managing adds. Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-05-2005 06:00 AM I started my monk Wanting to tank I strive to be the best tank a monk can be Its not easy but its possible. I make most my own grps my wife is a Temp so its not hard just add dps and I've got a good grp. Currently I'm lvl 39 and can tank pretty much anything a plate class my lvl can I take a bit more damage and use more mana when doing it but I do it. I hardly ever go out of my circle of friends for grp members due to the fact that when they realize I'm tanking they start to [Removed for Content] me off with the "LOL the monks tanking" BS. It bothers me to no end that my fellow Monks post such dribble as We are DPS not TANKS. I've compaired my DPS with a Guardians in a typical pick up grp situation with them tanking and me as DPS you know what the Guard wasn't far off from me as pure DPS. The only way we out DPS a Guard is by Spaming our specials (which isn't something I enjoy doing). Why play a class that takes skill in tanking only to be a button spaming LOW dps class??? I think if you wanted a DPS/Utility class perhaps YOU should reroll NOT the Monks who want to play the role SOE has described for us as TANKs.... __________________ Solfire Ignitor Dark Elf Coercer of Venekor Skatin Liltank Retired Gnome Monk on Blackburrow

03-06-2005, 02:28 PM	#29
SageMarrow Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 958	well actually im a bruiser and im tired of this argument mnks/bruisers are hybrids = and i dont know what guardian you were tanking with but i know every guard ive ever tanked with had about 1/4 of my dps- i average 100+ w/ 2h blunt EVERY FIGHT- and i take a VERY SMALL dps hit when tanking in a full grp buffed to max -- with no down time - so maybe you need to twink ur gear bro. either way lol - yall can take ur kung fu tank and walking around in the robe of the invoker arses and shove them- i never tried to make an argument out of this- its a matter of opinion and you wanting somn that you wont get lol so im letting it go on that note - every class has a hybrid type black sheep- so monks put ureselves in an enchanters shoes = useless in a good way. flexible enough to fill a roll- but actually can be done without - funny .:smileyvery-happy: we will be left alone if anything - they will give us our cutsie armor and shoo us under the table and just boost scouts combat arts. the simple and correct solution - hopefully they will come out and say what class is meant for what and give better descriptions on soloability etc so all you UBER TANKING MONKS will re roll or quit - cause you didnt get ur way 0 so when that happens and gage vanishes from the boards - it will be irony in its finest - lol - everyone i meet in RL and in game that are monks or bruisers openly say that these arguments are funny and think all the mnk tanks are idiots for even putting up this argument - it doesnt even make sense on a lore level - and i promise that if you did a survey and people who werent afraid actaully get involved in this fiasco would voice thier opinion you would see the truth. perfect mix of a scout and a tank.... HYBRID CLASS enough said. (yes its in pink for attention purposes) Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-06-2005 01:32 AM

03-06-2005, 02:58 PM	#30
NeVeRLi General Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: In the shadows of the Megacorporations Posts: 113	The question is still not answered guys Why does a agile light armor wearing monk with high agility and deflection skill get hit more than a warrior with heavy bulky armor and low agility? Yes monks will and should take more damage but the problem is we get hit to much now. I expect to see the guardian getting hit and his armor absorbing the damage but this is just not the case now, with their self buffs that raise their defense skill and the high level tower shields they dodge or block almost all attacks. Who cares about dps or how long it takes to kill something when you dont get hit or take any damage from the hit in the first place.I'm just asking some kind of balance and this nerf to agility and our deflection has broke the game balance. Monks and scouts should beable to avoid attacks better and they are not! We take more damage dammit and get hit more! Message Edited by NeVeRLiFt on 03-06-2005 04:58 AM