Berserkers are High end MT's

[Zerofault]

<DIV>The list goes on and on.... I joined the greatest guild on any server ever, period.. at least i believe this :smileytongue:  I am a 50 berserker and I have been the MT on every encounter we have tackled, including many server firsts.. Borxx, Venekor, Lord Nagalik.  Tonight as I post this we just spanked Darathar's scaley butt.  3 groups, not a single death.  We rocked this.....  So any berserkers with aspirations to be MT... tell your guardian to step aside and let you take the honors !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz - Nektulos - Archons</DIV><p>Message Edited by Zerofault on <span class=date_text>03-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:00 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<P>The thing is, the entire Fighter class can be High end MT's with the right raid formation. Since we all tank differently, we need different stratergy's, what works for Guardians isnt going to work for Monks, what works for Berserkers isnt going to work for Paladins and so on. Its just alot of people havent tryed different stratergys because they started winning with Guardians straight away making people think that Guardians were the prime choice for raids when in acual fact, any Fighter can tank a raid given the right cirumstances. Just like Pallies, Sk's, Monks and Brusiers have already proven, and now Berserkers.</P> <P>Grats on your win Lodoz, good stuff.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <P> </P>

[DaemonSlay]

<P>Anos right, any fighter class can be MT... but their tactics in battle would be differant <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Gratz though!!!! Mighty victory.... Now go kill Lucan... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Doloi]

The other night some guild pals and I finished DWB and as part of it we killed BloodTalon. We were a group of 5 level 23's and a level 21. BT actually aggro'd one of our healers, we didn't pull, and though there was a guardian in the group (barbarian guardian at that, I'm a ratonga berserker) I hit BT with everythng I had to pull him off the healer because she was on the verge of dying and I think the guardian was further away then I was. I ended up spending the first part of the fight laying off to try and let the guardian grab aggro, but with the first hit, HO, and some taunts, that thing was pretty well glued to me, so I just started unloading and we won the fight with ease. I don't really know anything about nameds, but the people in our guild were saying 5 23's and a 21 killing BT is pretty good...and we did it with my ratonga berserker tanking  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Min]

<P>Gratz on the tanking Lodoz, I know it feels good to lose the misconception that we Zerkers can't tank raid mobs.  I hope all those little Zerkers out that are reading this thread and can shrug off the "we can only be group tanks" mentality.   The fact is we are superb tanks and anyone who thinks differently just has to be shown, although we shouldn't have to prove it sometimes we do.<BR><BR>Kurrath<BR>48 Berserker & Co-Leader of Misericordia<BR>Mistmoore Server</P>

[CherobylJ]

Grats man <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[LauraG]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zerofault wrote:<BR> <DIV>The list goes on and on.... I joined the greatest guild on any server ever, period.. at least i believe this :smileytongue:  I am a 50 berserker and I have been the MT on every encounter we have tackled, including many server firsts.. Borxx, Venekor, Lord Nagalik.  Tonight as I post this we just spanked Darathar's scaley butt.  3 groups, <STRONG><FONT size=4>not a single death</FONT></STRONG>.  We rocked this.....  So any berserkers with aspirations to be MT... tell your guardian to step aside and let you take the honors !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz - Nektulos - Archons</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Zerofault on <SPAN class=date_text>03-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:00 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><!--StartFragment --> <IMG alt="The image “http://www.[Removed for Content].com/hodiswg/death.JPG” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors." src="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/hodiswg/death.JPG"> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Zealbour]

<DIV>Nonsence, Im tired of reading people verbally increase the effectiveness of their classes in some vain atempt to delude others to their abilities. Ive seen many guardians hack down the reqired power to heal in longterm raids. I know because I take the time to parse raid encounters. Dont think so? Look at just our abilities, most of them react to attacks with berserk/counterdamage. Did you even bother to read what the Guardians tank abilities do? No, its clear you didnt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A well equiped 50berserker can outtank a regular equiped 50 Guardian. Equally geared the difference is staggering, even if it was as low at 10% less healpower required(looks more like 15-25% genreally) Its a huge difference on those epic X3 encounters. Keep it real, let the guardian tank.. cause he sure as hell cant deal our damage.</DIV>

[Kannab]

Lol. not that we dont believe u ended up slaying it.

[AlienR]

<DIV> <P>Well said, I don't consider my 50 zerk to be dressed in the best gear but I know for a fact that the raid tanking guardians in my guild will perform far better against grp x4 mobs than I will.  I understand that the message being conveyed by the original poster is that zerkers can tank if needed to, and that's all well and good.  The fact is, in any given raid situation, other than having superior aggro management a zerker, monk or pally do not tank as well as a guardian.  Bottom line.</P> <P> </P> <P>When a 47 guardian with inferior gear is able to solo the same mob I solo at 49, and finish with nearly full health versus my 15% health....there's a huge mitigation difference...and yes I realize they have haste debuffs.  We get nifty offensive buffs while they get sweet defense and mitigation buffs.  It's what we picked when we went zerker.</P> <P> </P> <P>Yes we can tank...just not as well.</P> <P> </P> <P>Oh...while we're talking about the nifty offense that zerkers have....if you haven't seen this already....have a quick read on what's in store for us.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=39" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=39</A></P> <P>If you read it closely, that's a broad nerf.  I expected the rampage nerf....just didn't expect it to carry over to so many combat arts.</P></DIV>

[naeldayy]

<span><blockquote><hr>LauraG wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Zerofault wrote: <div>The list goes on and on.... I joined the greatest guild on any server ever, period.. at least i believe this :smileytongue:  I am a 50 berserker and I have been the MT on every encounter we have tackled, including many server firsts.. Borxx, Venekor, Lord Nagalik.  Tonight as I post this we just spanked Darathar's scaley butt.  3 groups, <strong><font size="4">not a single death</font></strong>.  We rocked this.....  So any berserkers with aspirations to be MT... tell your guardian to step aside and let you take the honors !</div> <div> </div> <div>Lodoz - Nektulos - Archons</div> <p>Message Edited by Zerofault on <span class="date_text">03-31-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:00 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <div><!--StartFragment --> <img alt="The image “http://www.[Removed for Content].com/hodiswg/death.JPG” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors." src="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/hodiswg/death.JPG"> </div> <div> </div> <div>:smileyvery-happy:</div><hr></blockquote> Nothing wrong with trying to solo him first! </span><span> </span><span></span><div></div>

[Fundi]

        I totally agree with you Lodoz.  The ONLY reason that guardians are thought to be the best tanks is because of their name.  Nothing else.  I have a guardian friend and we both self buffed ourselves in defense mode.  Our mitigation and avoidance were nearly identical.  The real issue is that it doesn't matter if we can tank well or not.  If everyone else thinks that guardians can tank better, then we wont be the ones tanking epic encounters.  As of now in my guild I tank the epics, but that was because the guardians weren't lvl 50 yet.  In guild chat, everyone is always mentioning that the guardians will MT once they hit 50 (even though my gear is much better as well as my stats).  Makes no sense whatsoever.  It's just frustrating being able to do something, but since no one else thinks you can, they don't let you.  Guardians have so many avoidance buffs and intercept (GUARDING) buffs that they can put on others, that a berserker would be the better choice since the guardian can GUARD the berserker while he's tanking, so in effect the guardian WOULD partially be tanking, just without aggro.  Our guild actually did this while fighting the drakotas in Maiden's Gulch and it worked well (if it weren't for the massive aoe that killed everyone else).  All I ask is that people see who has the best gear and skills in the guild and choose the MT based on that, not on what class they are.  Guardians are not better tanks than berserkers, it's just misconception due to their name. 

[-Aonein-]

<P>Its buff stacking thats the problem, if you look on the guard forum there is a full write up from a few Guards and how much avoidance they really do gain via there buffs, none of there buffs add over 1% to avoidance, its all around the 0.6% - 0.8%. </P> <P>Berserkers can get around the 65% mark with a shield and Guardians get around the 70% mark with a shield, there isnt a huge difference, the difference is in there debuffs and there ability to increase their slashing, crushing and piercing mitigation.</P> <P>Like i said earlier :</P> <P>The thing is, the entire Fighter class can be High end MT's with the right raid formation. Since we all tank differently, we need different stratergy's, what works for Guardians isnt going to work for Monks, what works for Berserkers isnt going to work for Paladins and so on. Its just alot of people havent tryed different stratergys because they started winning with Guardians straight away making people think that Guardians were the prime choice for raids when in acual fact, any Fighter can tank a raid given the right cirumstances. Just like Pallies, Sk's, Monks and Brusiers have already proven, and now Berserkers.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[AlienR]

<DIV>I still debate we tank "as well" ....not that we "can't tank".  This thread makes it apparent we can, under ideal situations.  I only say ideal because obviously this zerker's gear is best suited for the job, as he was put in that role for his guild.  That's nice to see, but the point I'm making is that an equivalent geared guardian would require less support than he would.  I can't attest to our tanking ability, I've concentrated on dps since I hit 40 and still do at 50.  On raids, I blow rampage and level the adds so we have just the named to contend with.  Once I have aggro, I promptly eat dirt....it's simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Refer to my statement on my last post about the differences between our two classes regarding basic damage intake.  Basic meaning no support at all, and straight up solo.  Mob vs. player, a lower level guardian with less gearing will take less damage from a mob than a better equipped, higher level zerker.  This isn't an isolated instance, it's something I witnessed too many times while leveling up.  I solo'd 4 of my levels between 40 and 50, and on several occassions I found myself working near lower level guardians doing the same content solo....and with much more efficiency.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not complaning, I went zerker to fill a dps role that had flavor and so I could tank if needed.  What does bother me is, knowing that I made that decision and experiencing constant nerfs to my damage capabilities.  Outside of rampage, I don't see zerkers as overpowered in that role and unless my guild suddenly has a wild notion to start handing me master items fit for a tanking role, I don't see the glaring need for a zerker on high end raiding situations other than filling out the ranks.  In a nutshell, I don't personally feel zerkers are better suited for the raid tanking position, I do feel we are better suited for quickly dispersing large groups of adds....but if we're losing 75% of that ability in the next patch...what does that leave me with if the lead tanks in my guild are guardians?</DIV><p>Message Edited by AlienRok on <span class=date_text>04-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:08 AM</span>

[Padi]

<P>I know at least one of you sited the fact that an equal level guardian can tank a mob 1-2 levels higher solo than a zerker as proof that they are far better tanks.  While it does show that they can make their effective level 1-2 higher than a zerker and thus tank mobs at that are below their level easier, that doesn't translate very well to mobs that are higher level than the 2 classes.  A mob 2 levels higher than either will not have troubles hitting either regardless of their defensive buff.</P> <P>And there is no difference in avoidance or mitigation values from what I can see.  I've yet to see an equal level guardian with higher numbers than myself.  It's the defense buff they get that make them tank a level or 2 higher against a mob solo, because the higher defense makes a higher level mob effectly grey.  That doesn't mean there is a huge disparity once the mobs are higher level than both, because as you probably have noticed when in a group, yellows and oranges both easily hit you.</P> <p>Message Edited by Padien on <span class=date_text>04-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:23 AM</span>

[Zerofault]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LauraG wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zerofault wrote:<BR> <DIV>The list goes on and on.... I joined the greatest guild on any server ever, period.. at least i believe this :smileytongue:  I am a 50 berserker and I have been the MT on every encounter we have tackled, including many server firsts.. Borxx, Venekor, Lord Nagalik.  Tonight as I post this we just spanked Darathar's scaley butt.  3 groups, <STRONG><FONT size=4>not a single death</FONT></STRONG>.  We rocked this.....  So any berserkers with aspirations to be MT... tell your guardian to step aside and let you take the honors !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz - Nektulos - Archons</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Zerofault on <SPAN class=date_text>03-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:00 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><!--StartFragment --> <IMG alt="The image “http://www.[Removed for Content].com/hodiswg/death.JPG” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors." src="http://www.[Removed for Content].com/hodiswg/death.JPG"> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileyvery-happy:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LOL nice investigating... we broke off as one group and tested what AE he had so we could cure it and to see how hard he hit...  So I should clear that up, our first guild attempt to killing darathar, there was not a single death hehe</P> <P> </P> <P>Lodoz</P>

[Spaceweed]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>Its buff stacking thats the problem, if you look on the guard forum there is a full write up from a few Guards and how much avoidance they really do gain via there buffs, none of there buffs add over 1% to avoidance, its all around the 0.6% - 0.8%. </P> <P>Berserkers can get around the 65% mark with a shield and Guardians get around the 70% mark with a shield, there isnt a huge difference, the difference is in there debuffs and there ability to increase their slashing, crushing and piercing mitigation.</P> <P>Like i said earlier :</P> <P>The thing is, the entire Fighter class can be High end MT's with the right raid formation. Since we all tank differently, we need different stratergy's, what works for Guardians isnt going to work for Monks, what works for Berserkers isnt going to work for Paladins and so on. Its just alot of people havent tryed different stratergys because they started winning with Guardians straight away making people think that Guardians were the prime choice for raids when in acual fact, any Fighter can tank a raid given the right cirumstances. Just like Pallies, Sk's, Monks and Brusiers have already proven, and now Berserkers.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And your proof of this is where?</P> <P>Have you taken on T'Haen yet?  Vox? The Arch Lich in The Feerrott?</P> <P>I'm a 50th Berserker who has been on all of these raids on more than one occasion, and I see no evidence whatsoever that I could MT these mobs.  As for a Monk or Brawler - don't make me laugh, they would be gone in less than two hits.</P> <P>If you are talking about a Zerker with full Ebon/epic rare chest drops, then you are not talking about the average Zerker.  It's like saying 'anyone can be President of the US - no, they can't.<BR></P>

[Spaceweed]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fundinn wrote:<BR>        I totally agree with you Lodoz.  The ONLY reason that guardians are thought to be the best tanks is because of their name.  Nothing else.  I have a guardian friend and we both self buffed ourselves in defense mode.  Our mitigation and avoidance were nearly identical.  The real issue is that it doesn't matter if we can tank well or not.  If everyone else thinks that guardians can tank better, then we wont be the ones tanking epic encounters.  As of now in my guild I tank the epics, but that was because the guardians weren't lvl 50 yet.  In guild chat, everyone is always mentioning that the guardians will MT once they hit 50 (even though my gear is much better as well as my stats).  Makes no sense whatsoever.  It's just frustrating being able to do something, but since no one else thinks you can, they don't let you.  Guardians have so many avoidance buffs and intercept (GUARDING) buffs that they can put on others, that a berserker would be the better choice since the guardian can GUARD the berserker while he's tanking, so in effect the guardian WOULD partially be tanking, just without aggro.  Our guild actually did this while fighting the drakotas in Maiden's Gulch and it worked well (if it weren't for the massive aoe that killed everyone else).  All I ask is that people see who has the best gear and skills in the guild and choose the MT based on that, not on what class they are.  Guardians are not better tanks than berserkers, it's just misconception due to their name. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ok, so you have the Guardian guard the Berserker while he MT's - why?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are now using two classes to do the job one of those classes can do by himself, and losing the dps of the Berserker from the equation also,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Berserker is a support tank/dps class, and does this job very well in a raid situation.  As this game stands at the moment, the Guardian is the no1 choice of MT at a raid - bar none.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<P>See Spaceweed is one of the many blind and very non skilled players who are lead to believe they cant tank :</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4810" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4810</A></P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4463" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4463</A></P> <P>Have i made you laugh yet Spaceweed? You clearly havent had a chance to tank none of this stuff, so you wouldnt even know.</P> <P>Now ill say it once more, what works for a Guardian, isnt going to work for a Monk, what works for a Berserker isnt going to work for a Paladin and so on and so on. Every Fighter class can tank any part of the game, its the people like Spaceweed who try to lead people on a " Guardians are the best, forget the rest " mentaility, when there is people and guilds out there who devise the right game plans to suit the MT they have at the time, its called stratergy, not getting spoilers from other guilds and relying soley on Guardians. Its called Diversity. Read the boards more and get some facts before you assume what you dont even know your talking about. See the part above your post where it says Lodoz tested his ae with a group to see how they could go about curing it? Its called planning ahead, and devising a game plan, stratergy.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:33 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Oh and while im at it before i forget, scroll down in one of those screen shots, and he also tanked Arch Lich Uldaan, lvl 54 <STRONG>^^^</STRONG> group x4 epic raid mob. And other Bruisers have also tanked this stuff and they state that in the threads. </P> <P>Now the ironic thing about it all is, Bruisers are a Offensive Brawler, and a Monk is a Defensive Brawler. Just like a Berserker is a Offensive Warrior and a Guardian is a Defensive Warrior, so please Spaceweed, dont make me laugh.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>great post aonein as always,</P> <P>The bottom line is that some classes sacrificed defense for offense. I knew it when i played a bruiser, and you knew it when you played a zerker. </P> <P>Its not the same situation as with a caster type or with a scout type, in the lines of what is TANKING - offensive and defensive matters greatly. Now i will admit that if SOE planned on having offensive/defensive based tanks, then they shouldve made the kill speed difference able to surmount that lack of defense so that the OFFENSIVE types could balance that bogus ratio that is offense to defense.</P> <P>That in essence would be balance in the fighter archetype. Within the current setup, the differences between a shadowknight and a paladins tanking ability is SOOOO apparent it causes a stir. Simply because the shadowknight doesnt kill the mob at the same rate that the paladin can sustain his own Hp.</P> <P>Same thing in relation to guardian/zerkers. Zerkers shouldve had some form of damage increase while tanking exclusively so that they do great or even massive dps while tanking to balance the simple consistency based tanking of a guardian. </P> <P>So yes, people would be able to pick the flavor of tank they so choose with the tradeoffs being understood. Instead they just gave 2 classes a leg up on the defensive side of abilities and expected it to be okay. (guardian and paladin). </P> <P>At the least offensive classes shouldnt have been able to recieve riposte and parry and such. That might just throw the balance of being an offensive tank into the realm of holding aggro a bit better and killing the mob faster as opposed to the slow and steady approach provided by a guardian.</P> <P>That <EM>TO ME</EM> = would be a better direction for achieving balance.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>04-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:33 PM</span>

[Zerofault]

<DIV>Vox dead, Venekor dead, T'haaen - workin on, Arch Lich dead, darathar dead, borxx dead, Lord Nagalik dead, all instances dead (cept zek)... not a full list.. but ALL these killed with ME as MT.. 50 zerker, and my gear is improving, but it wasn't always this good when I started tanking and we were still winning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz - Nektulos - Archons</DIV><p>Message Edited by Zerofault on <span class=date_text>04-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:39 AM</span>

[Fundi]

<P>      I'm telling you right now.  If you are a berserker going dps in a raid situation and you aren't taking aggro, then you aren't doing good dps.  The reason that berserkers aren't a dps class is that we have no detaunts/hate reducers.  Please think about this.  Even though a berserker CAN do more dps than any class in game, they CAN NOT do it without taking aggro.  SO, in order to keep from taking aggro the berserker has to cut their dps drasticly, thus getting outdamaged by all the other dps classes, making us in effect a crappy dps class when not tanking.  If you don't cut your dps, you are going to take aggro and die very quickly thus cutting your dps for you. </P> <P>       Ask a guardian friend of yours to self buff one day and you do the same and compare what you see.  Similarly equipped guardians and berserkers will have similar mitigation and avoidance.  People who think berserkers are not tanks are just going by misconceptions from eq1.  I wish players would realize that this is a totally different game. </P> <P> Oh, and P.S., there is no way you are rampaging when not tanking and not stealing aggro.  The move does too massive of damage for that to be so.</P>

[Fundi]

<P>     Oh, and about monks and bruisers.  I agree that they would die very quickly tanking in any raid situation as the game is now.  All fighters are meant to be tanks and tank to varying degrees of success based solely on their gear and playing abilities, not their class.  The devs are working to make this so and I believe they will succede.  </P> <P>     One problem that I have with the game is that there is only 1 MT in a raid and 1 backup and the other tanks are pretty much useless.  Conversely, you need many dps classes and 4+ healers for group x2 and up.  The thing is, there are the same number of fighter classes as their are scout, priest, and mage, thus there will be similar numbers of people playing as fighters, but the demand for fighters in groups is just not there.  You only need 1 in an XP group and 2 MAYBE 3 in a raid.  I'm sure you can see the problem.  In a few months, once most people are done lvling, there are going to be a lot of fighters with nothing to do.  In fact, I've started lvling an illusionist just in case they don't have a fix for this problem.  One way SOE can combat this is to make more zones like Nektropos: Revisited (which is very fun I might add).  I'm hoping they come up with ways to make having more than 2 tanks useful in raid situations, but if they don't and my guild doesn't choose me as MT, then I'll always have my enchanter to fall back on.</P> <P>     I know this doesn't really fit in this topic, but starting new ones is too much work.  Please forgive me and think about my thoughts =).</P>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Multiple tanks on raids is a good thing, especially when you have balanced groups, you need multiple tanks and balanced groups on raids for the simple fact who is going to tank adds if encounters ever decide to start popping ^^ lvl 54 mobs during the fight? Wizard? Scout? Preist? I dont think so, and the MT is to busy controlling the Raid mob itself, and unless the mobs are attacking someone in the MT's group setup, then group buffs arent going to peel those mobs off and too the MT himself, so thats where people will need or start to need multiple tanks. Another reason for multiple tanks is to dissapte damage done in a raid encounter so that it still makes it possible to keep a MT alive, having the MT take 7500 damage while the Healers are only healing him for 8000 isnt effcient, and your riding deaths door, when you can easily have off tanks tank those extra few adds to lessen the impact of damage done to the MT, while the MT maintains agro on the main raid mob himself, DPS in the raid turn its attention to the adds, burning those down then back to main raid mob, and rinse repeat in the event it happens again.</P> <P>Raids might be just one mob or linked encounters at the current moment with a low possibility of adds, almost no possibility, but give it time, and i do believe they will increase it above 24 people one day, wont be anytime soon, but they will, they will have too, it cant revolve around 24 people forever.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:23 PM</span>

[Spaceweed]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>See Spaceweed is one of the many blind and very non skilled players who are lead to believe they cant tank :</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4810" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4810</A></P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4463" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4463</A></P> <P>Have i made you laugh yet Spaceweed? You clearly havent had a chance to tank none of this stuff, so you wouldnt even know.</P> <P>Now ill say it once more, what works for a Guardian, isnt going to work for a Monk, what works for a Berserker isnt going to work for a Paladin and so on and so on. Every Fighter class can tank any part of the game, its the people like Spaceweed who try to lead people on a " Guardians are the best, forget the rest " mentaility, when there is people and guilds out there who devise the right game plans to suit the MT they have at the time, its called stratergy, not getting spoilers from other guilds and relying soley on Guardians. Its called Diversity. Read the boards more and get some facts before you assume what you dont even know your talking about. See the part above your post where it says Lodoz tested his ae with a group to see how they could go about curing it? Its called planning ahead, and devising a game plan, stratergy.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>04-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:33 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why am I a 'non skilled player' because I have yet to see evidence of certain 'tank' classes fronting a decent raid mob?</P> <P>You're pics show me some interesting information which I haven't seen before, and does surprise me to a degree.  I do note there isn't a shot of a Berserker there..but I'm sure you will find one for me.</P> <P>The bottom line is, Guardians tank raid mobs 'better' and are currently first choice in raids.  Don't mislead people into thinking they are going to be doing a job that they - for 95% of the time - aren't going to be doing in a raid guild.</P> <P>As for 'believing they can't tank', I have tanked this game from lvl 10 to lvl 50 so I know we can tank xp mobs and the very ordinary 'raid' mobs in these areas - I tanked Tundra Jack @ lvl 43, so don't tell me what I can and can't do.</P> <P>If the game stays fundamentally the same, Berserkers/Monks/Bruisers etc, will get little to no chance of 'attempting' to tank the big boys, and as more and more dps classes level thru 50, we will be come a redundant entity.  Nobody is more p!ssed off about this situation than me.  I started to play this game to tank raids, and I believe I was mislead by SOE on their description of the fighter archetype.  If they had given us an honest assessment, I would have chosen a Guardian.</P> <P>As for you, don't ever speak down to me again you little [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]e.<BR></P>

[Spaceweed]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Multiple tanks on raids is a good thing, especially when you have balanced groups, you need multiple tanks and balanced groups on raids for the simple fact who is going to tank adds if encounters ever decide to start popping ^^ lvl 54 mobs during the fight? Wizard? Scout? Preist?</FONT> I dont think so, and the MT is to busy controlling the Raid mob itself, and unless the mobs are attacking someone in the MT's group setup, then group buffs arent going to peel those mobs off and too the MT himself, so thats where people will need or start to need multiple tanks. Another reason for multiple tanks is to dissapte damage done in a raid encounter so that it still makes it possible to keep a MT alive, having the MT take 7500 damage while the Healers are only healing him for 8000 isnt effcient, and your riding deaths door, when you can easily have off tanks tank those extra few adds to lessen the impact of damage done to the MT, while the MT maintains agro on the main raid mob himself, DPS in the raid turn its attention to the adds, burning those down then back to main raid mob, and rinse repeat in the event it happens again.</P> <P>Raids might be just one mob or linked encounters at the current moment with a low possibility of adds, almost no possibility, but give it time, and i do believe they will increase it above 24 people one day, wont be anytime soon, but they will, they will have too, it cant revolve around 24 people forever.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>04-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:23 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And therein lies the job of the Berserker in a standard raid.  King Drayek is a good example of where the Berserker starts to shine, as is the Feerrott instance with the eyes - don't put a round peg into a square hole, regardless of how much you 'love' the class.</P> <P>Reading some of your posts, it seems you have an obsession with them - do you dress as one at home when you play?</P> <P>  <BR></P>

[AlienR]

<P>Losing interest beating a dead horse here but Aonein, you sound like a fairly inteligent person so I'll spare some un-needed details here.  You've said it at least twice that each sub-class will have to handle tanking differently it's just a matter of who's tanking that determines what they do.  Not sure I really get you on this one, and what I mean is....Guardians, Zerkers, Monks, Bruisers, Pallys and SKs all have "X" amount of health.  Each one of them has "X" amount of mitigating abilities whether it be buffs, gear or innate abilities or stats...hell even racial selection.  By the way, that last sentence is where I think you're going with your point.  Each one of those subclasses varies mostly by these mitigating factors....not health, because anyone of those classes can obtain gear or be buffed to equivalent hps...the only thing that would make a difference would be your race if equally geared and buffed.   I hope we all agree with what I've said so far.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ok so now you have all these varying levels of mitigation or avoidance to compare.  Guardians having a nice blend of both due to their self buffs, where as we don't.  I will say, that this shouldn't be the case....the reason I say that is due to the fact that several of our self defense buffs do absolutely nothing.  If you open up your skill stats window, your character hud window, and your persona window and buff yourself with each one of your buffs....singularly not all together as to illiminate any stacking issues...you'll notice that only three of your buffs actually affect your stats....and only two of them stack.  Our defensive stances....work.  Our weapon shield which is merely a parry buff...works.  Our low level short duration defense buff (forget the name) actually works.  Our stifled rage line of defense buffs....affect nothing.  Hunker down....does nothing.  And come to think of it....I need to re-test Anarchy...because at master 1 I don't believe my avoidance number is moving with it up.  Even our Infuriation, Vehemence and Stand firm targetted buffs do nothing for any visible stat.</P> <P>If....all of those abilities/ buffs were fixed...we might actually tank more comparably to a guardian.  Again....this isn't an argument of whether a zerker CAN tank.....the point is that we dont tank AS EFFICIENTLY as a guardian.  It's mathematics.</P> <P>Yes, said poster child zerker here has alledgedly tanked very difficult content....and I'm very excited about that.  For those of us who don't know how that's possible, it's quite simple....GEAR.  I'll wager to say several of his slotted items have +vs Crush, Pierce and Slashing dmg on them.  Those items are invaluable to a MT.  Our best tank is probably pushing 400 in each of those areas, and the difference between him and even the other guardians in our guild are staggering.  If you want to raid tank as a zerker....insist on tanking gear....not strength enhanced dps gear....which is what I've done so far.  I'm not regretful either....I have the 2nd highest magic hit of any zerker world wide as of yesterday.  First on my server and 13th worldwide (thank you Sony for Rampage) but that's what I geared for....dps.</P>

[AlienR]

<DIV> <P>double post</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by AlienRok on <span class=date_text>04-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:08 PM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV> <P>The bottom line is, Guardians tank raid mobs 'better' and are currently first choice in raids.  Don't mislead people into thinking they are going to be doing a job that they - for 95% of the time - aren't going to be doing in a raid guild.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___</P> <P>within the system currently in place, guardians will always be the most defensive tank to some extent, so that simple fact wont change... no matter what change they make unless they take the guards defense down to zerker or paladin levels and give them a dps boost...</P> <P>but then they would be just zerkers with defensive buffs...</P></DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AlienRok wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>Losing interest beating a dead horse here but Aonein, you sound like a fairly inteligent person so I'll spare some un-needed details here.  You've said it at least twice that each sub-class will have to handle tanking differently it's just a matter of who's tanking that determines what they do.  Not sure I really get you on this one, and what I mean is....Guardians, Zerkers, Monks, Bruisers, Pallys and SKs all have "X" amount of health.  Each one of them has "X" amount of mitigating abilities whether it be buffs, gear or innate abilities or stats...hell even racial selection.  By the way, that last sentence is where I think you're going with your point.  Each one of those subclasses varies mostly by these mitigating factors....not health, because anyone of those classes can obtain gear or be buffed to equivalent hps...the only thing that would make a difference would be your race if equally geared and buffed.   I hope we all agree with what I've said so far.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Acually, Guardians can get upto 15k HP, i dont know any Monk that can get remotely close to that, and i dont believe there is any, the disparity between how much HP each class is tied into the archtype system, for example, you could be a Ratonga Guardian and have the same amount of HP as a Ogre Guardian because the archtype system is what determines how much HP class's get, for example Fighter, Warrior, Guardian, all have set amounts of HP asigned to them with in those areas, if you took a Monk, Guardian, Berserker and Paladin and lined them up, told them to strip off, take all there gear off and drop al there buffs, i can bet there no where near the same HP. Other fighters can buff up some nice HP, but no where near 15k HP. Guardians have the best self HP buffs in the game and the best defensive buffs in the game in reguards to mitigation, i never said they didnt and i never said they werent efficient, all im saying is with the right stratergy's any fighter class can tank any part of the game. Monks dont mitigate like us, Berserkers and Guardians are from the warrior line, we have the best unbuffed mitigation in the game, meaning that Templars / Inquisitors with thier reactive heals go best with Warriors. Where Berserkers on the other hand have HP buffs also, not elf ones but group ones, we have better Parry skills then a Guard due to our ability to become hasted from Berserk increasing our hit ratio and therefore increasing the amount of ripostes we can potentially take, which is where Parry steps in., we go best with reactive healers also. Monks are avoidance tanks, they dont get hit, making Mystics / Wardens choice healing for Monks because of the wards and HoT ( Heal over Time ). Wardens as they stand atm are a choice for any group formation, they do 700 hp every 6 seconds for 30 seconds, thats 3500 hp in 30 seconds, plus the ability to spot heal with insta heals during the course of that, there getting looked into also cause there healing power is too high in reguards to the rest of the priest class. Pallies and Sk's have the abilitie to life tap and heal them selves, with medium mitigation skills and self wards.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>All the fighter class's have the ability and utility to add stats and skills to groups, we all have those.</FONT></P> <P>Ok so now you have all these varying levels of mitigation or avoidance to compare.  Guardians having a nice blend of both due to their self buffs, where as we don't.  I will say, that this shouldn't be the case....the reason I say that is due to the fact that several of our self defense buffs do absolutely nothing.  If you open up your skill stats window, your character hud window, and your persona window and buff yourself with each one of your buffs....singularly not all together as to illiminate any stacking issues...you'll notice that only three of your buffs actually affect your stats....and only two of them stack.  Our defensive stances....work.  Our weapon shield which is merely a parry buff...works.  Our low level short duration defense buff (forget the name) actually works.  Our stifled rage line of defense buffs....affect nothing.  Hunker down....does nothing.  And come to think of it....I need to re-test Anarchy...because at master 1 I don't believe my avoidance number is moving with it up.  Even our Infuriation, Vehemence and Stand firm targetted buffs do nothing for any visible stat.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Yep most of our buffs are bugged, i have compiled much data to come up with consildated broken skills etc which you can find </FONT><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=9354" target=_blank><STRONG><FONT color=#66ccff>here</FONT></STRONG></A><FONT color=#66ccff>. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Berserkers get more and better Parry buffs compared to a Guardian because while in a tanking postion, we can self haste, plus be hasted from a Illusionist / Coercer and add Berserk to that and we can get a massive amount of haste, and when you consider this, there is going to be alot of ripostes envolved here, which is the reason for Parry. Anarchy doesnt add anything to avoidance, its a mitigation buff, it adds to offensive mitigation in the form of Slashing, Piercing and Crushing while also giving the entire group the chance to proc Anarchic Swing on the mobs, which is a DD ( Direct Damage ) proc. Hunker Down is a very low level buff we get as Warriors, so i wouldnt expect it to do much at a high end level.</FONT></P> <P>If....all of those abilities/ buffs were fixed...we might actually tank more comparably to a guardian.  Again....this isn't an argument of whether a zerker CAN tank.....the point is that we dont tank AS EFFICIENTLY as a guardian.  It's mathematics.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Any fighter class can tank as efficiently as a guardian in the right situation, thats why the game has a archtype system or you would be forever building a group around a Guardian from day 1, which isnt the way SoE intend it too be, they want all class's with in the archtype system to be able to do the job equally well in different group formations and different situations, its called being diverese instead of trivial. Trivial being, ok we need a Guardian, 5 Healers, a Chanter or 2 and the rest DPS, ok lets go, thats trivial, and BORING. With the archtype system it keeps it balanced in such a way that it can be a diverse way, not a trivial way. People just need to learn what class best suits there play style to group with instead of everyone saying " Ok Templars are the best healer " or " Guardians are the best tanks " or " Wizards are the best DPS " mentalility. It wont work like that for certain group or raid formations, acually DPS it will cause DPS is DPS on a raid. But SoE dont want the disparity of the class's with in the archtype system to be so big and so distant, you can read about it </FONT><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=39033#M39033" target=_blank><STRONG><FONT color=#66ccff>Here</FONT></STRONG></A><FONT color=#66ccff> and </FONT><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=38949#M38949" target=_blank><STRONG><FONT color=#66ccff>Here</FONT></STRONG></A><FONT color=#66ccff>. There closing the gap on the disparity between each class to bring it closer to a balanced archtype system not a balanced class only system like EQ1 was. The percantage on how close they will bring it in reguards to utility vs DPS is your guess as good as mine. While i myself dont agree in the " all class being roughly the same with in each sub-class " because im a firm believer in trading something for something, not " you have it so i should have it " attitude. Its what creates diveristy on a game play style and not just a flavour or graphical style. Once they fix all the buffs they have stated they will fix, id more likely say that will close the disparity in the gap between a Guardian and a Berserker and we will become a better tank class, but still not as good as a Guardian because this is the way its designed. </FONT></P> <P>Yes, said poster child zerker here has alledgedly tanked very difficult content....and I'm very excited about that.  For those of us who don't know how that's possible, it's quite simple....GEAR.  I'll wager to say several of his slotted items have +vs Crush, Pierce and Slashing dmg on them.  Those items are invaluable to a MT.  Our best tank is probably pushing 400 in each of those areas, and the difference between him and even the other guardians in our guild are staggering.  If you want to raid tank as a zerker....insist on tanking gear....not strength enhanced dps gear....which is what I've done so far.  I'm not regretful either....I have the 2nd highest magic hit of any zerker world wide as of yesterday.  First on my server and 13th worldwide (thank you Sony for Rampage) but that's what I geared for....dps.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Seeing as we are a Offensive Warrior, i tend to gear myself towards high mitigation / parry because we naturally do DPS, our skills and combat arts do it for us while having the ability to self haste ourselfs in two ways, but i like to play a balanced char, and i aim for resist saves, STR / STA / AGI in that specific order, i'll willing sacrafice a little mitigation for extra saves. Now Lodoz states in one of his posts his gear isnt all that great. You can get away with a average tank with a strong healer group or a Stronger tank with a weaker healer group. I tend to aim at holding agro with a combination of DPS and Taunts instead of relying solely on taunts. The thing is which i dont think alot of people dont understand, is Guardinas are built to tank, they give up the nicer group utility that other Fighters get and they give up the nicer DPS that other Fighters get to be a meat shield. Let me ask you this, would you invite a Guardian to a group for DPS if there was a Guardian and Berserker LFG? No. Would you invite a Guardian to tank while the Berserker does DPS? Yes. See we are one of the lucky class's who can fill 2 slots in the event there is no real DPS class's avaiable, at least we do more then a Guardian, and any fighter can tank as good as each other in a group situation, after all this game doesnt revolve around raiding and it probally never will, it revolves around small to large group play in the region of 3 - 6 players. People need to understand that, and class's will be balanced around a group enviroment before they will be looked at balancing them around a raid enviroment. One otrher thing is, everyone who has raided, knows that riads all come down to your resists, seeing that all the raids revolve around PB AoE DoTs and PB AoE nukes, if you can last the first 3 mins or so in a raid to give a chanter or two enough time to burn the mobs power down, then its pretty much smooth sailing after that, BUT, dont forget, mobs are starting to proc PB AoE's, so once a mobs power is gone dont count on smooth sailing, plus there adjusting avoidance and the way it works and stacks, so dont plan on 100% avoidance tanking on raids anymore ethier.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>In the end it all comes down to what you want out of your char, its about fun, not about who can do this, and why cant i do that because he can, and that not fair, he has that and i dont. If you want the skills or arts of another class, then you should go roll that class and play it, they will never give class's other class's arts, they are going to close the gap in disparity between the class's with in each sub - class though, which in a way i personally dont like, but thats my personal opion, it doesnt effect the fun i have in the game, but it effects my view on the game when i come to another person and they say to me " Do you play EQ2?". Let me ask you one more question, if it was all about who could do it the best and who had the most DPS etc etc, then if they make every class the same with in the archtype system in reguards to tanking equally, dps equally etc, then why would you play a Guardian when you can just play a Monk / Bruiser and be as a <STRONG><U>efficient</U></STRONG> tank as a Guardian but do DPS like a Monk / Bruiser? Its a hyperthectical question. So try and contain one self from throwing it out of context.</FONT></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV></DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spaceweed wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why am I a 'non skilled player' because I have yet to see evidence of certain 'tank' classes fronting a decent raid mob?</P> <P>You're pics show me some interesting information which I haven't seen before, and does surprise me to a degree.  I do note there isn't a shot of a Berserker there..but I'm sure you will find one for me.</P> <P>The bottom line is, Guardians tank raid mobs 'better' and are currently first choice in raids.  Don't mislead people into thinking they are going to be doing a job that they - for 95% of the time - aren't going to be doing in a raid guild.</P> <P>As for 'believing they can't tank', I have tanked this game from lvl 10 to lvl 50 so I know we can tank xp mobs and the very ordinary 'raid' mobs in these areas - I tanked Tundra Jack @ lvl 43, so don't tell me what I can and can't do.</P> <P>If the game stays fundamentally the same, Berserkers/Monks/Bruisers etc, will get little to no chance of 'attempting' to tank the big boys, and as more and more dps classes level thru 50, we will be come a redundant entity.  Nobody is more p!ssed off about this situation than me.  I started to play this game to tank raids, and I believe I was mislead by SOE on their description of the fighter archetype.  If they had given us an honest assessment, I would have chosen a Guardian.</P> <P>As for you, don't ever speak down to me again you little [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]e.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Tundra Jack is hardly a raid mob, i watched 8 people kill him, your going to have to do better then that son.</P> <P>Im not misleading anyone Spaceweed, im simply trying to get people to see that any Fighter class in any archtype can tank raids, not <STRONG><U>JUST </U></STRONG>Guardians, so your little notion of SoE misleading you is pure BS, cause as it stands right now, <STRONG><U>every</U></STRONG> Fighter in the entire Fighter archtype has tanked Raids, reguardless of wether its once or twice or three times, they still can do it, and im sure if they had too do it, they could do it on a constant basis. They gave us a honest statement, all Fighters with in the Fighter archtype are tanking raids and are all tanking for groups, some are lucky enough to be able to fill a DPS slot if there isnt any real DPS around while some are pure Tanks and its hard for them to play a DPS role, we are one of the lucky ones Spaceweed, if you wanted to be MT <STRONG><U>every</U></STRONG> single time on <STRONG><U>every</U></STRONG> single raid, then you have defiently chosen the wrong class. </P> <P>In other words, if you want to hog the ball and run 500 yards for the game winning touch down, on a constant basis, then you chose the wrong class. Now if you like to pass the ball and <STRONG><U>help</U></STRONG> the <STRONG><U>TEAM</U></STRONG> win, then your playing the right class, cause any class reguardless, can help the team win Spaceweed, and thats what its all about, in a guild your part of a team, if you cant sit on the side line and wait your turn, then why are you playing the class you play? Oh thats right, SoE mislead you, my fault.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <P> </P>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>:smileysad:</P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:27 PM</span>

[Zerofault]

<DIV>What more proof do i have to give that berserkers are raid MT's.. I've maintanked just about everythign out there and won.  There are guilds with more people then us that can't beat what we do with a berserker...  I don't care about the numbers, they mean nothing... I tank better, I hold aggro just as well, and we win everythign we try.  We just beat the supposedly broken Menagerie instance... which btw isnt' broke, its just hard.  I am not saying we win all these raids just because we have a berserker tanking, we also have some of the best players in the game period.  Guardian playing support/buff role fora  berserker is actually the way to go, believe me or not I don't care, we kill [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]e and you dream and cry about not being able to.  For those that have, grats... every guild can come up with strats and group combos that work for them, but don't come to the berserker forum and say we aren't MT's just because your [Removed for Content] and don't know your class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alledgedly?  hahah you make me laugh... go ahead and look up Archons, send cross server tell to anyone in the guild and ask who the MT is on 99.9% of the raids... that .1% was the freak time i couldn't be on for whatever reason.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have just recieved my second item with dmg resists on it, 90% of these raids have been completed without the zists.. and the boots were nerfed 8(</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW Defensive Stance is what is broken if you pay any attention... say your defensive stance gives 12 def and you cast Stifled Rage, what happens? your defense goes up to 13... Stifled rage isn't giving 1 defense, its knocking your defensive stance out and only giving you the stifled rage buff... so the actual problem is that your def. stance isn't stacking properly.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AlienRok wrote:<BR> <P>Losing interest beating a dead horse here but Aonein, you sound like a fairly inteligent person so I'll spare some un-needed details here.  You've said it at least twice that each sub-class will have to handle tanking differently it's just a matter of who's tanking that determines what they do.  Not sure I really get you on this one, and what I mean is....Guardians, Zerkers, Monks, Bruisers, Pallys and SKs all have "X" amount of health.  Each one of them has "X" amount of mitigating abilities whether it be buffs, gear or innate abilities or stats...hell even racial selection.  By the way, that last sentence is where I think you're going with your point.  Each one of those subclasses varies mostly by these mitigating factors....not health, because anyone of those classes can obtain gear or be buffed to equivalent hps...the only thing that would make a difference would be your race if equally geared and buffed.   I hope we all agree with what I've said so far.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ok so now you have all these varying levels of mitigation or avoidance to compare.  Guardians having a nice blend of both due to their self buffs, where as we don't.  I will say, that this shouldn't be the case....the reason I say that is due to the fact that several of our self defense buffs do absolutely nothing.  If you open up your skill stats window, your character hud window, and your persona window and buff yourself with each one of your buffs....singularly not all together as to illiminate any stacking issues...you'll notice that only three of your buffs actually affect your stats....and only two of them stack.  Our <FONT color=#cc0033>defensive stances</FONT>....work.  Our weapon shield which is merely a parry buff...works.  Our low level short duration defense buff (forget the name) actually works.  Our stifled rage line of defense buffs....affect nothing.  Hunker down....does nothing.  And come to think of it....I need to re-test Anarchy...because at master 1 I don't believe my avoidance number is moving with it up.  Even our Infuriation, Vehemence and Stand firm targetted buffs do nothing for any visible stat.</P> <P>If....all of those abilities/ buffs were fixed...we might actually tank more comparably to a guardian.  Again....this isn't an argument of whether a zerker CAN tank.....the point is that we dont tank AS EFFICIENTLY as a guardian.  It's mathematics.</P> <P>Yes, said poster child zerker here has <STRONG><EM><U><FONT color=#cc0033 size=4>alledgedly</FONT></U></EM></STRONG> tanked very difficult content....and I'm very excited about that.  For those of us who don't know how that's possible, it's quite simple....GEAR.  I'll wager to say several of his slotted items have +vs Crush, Pierce and Slashing dmg on them.  Those items are invaluable to a MT.  Our best tank is probably pushing 400 in each of those areas, and the difference between him and even the other guardians in our guild are staggering.  If you want to raid tank as a zerker....insist on tanking gear....not strength enhanced dps gear....which is what I've done so far.  I'm not regretful either....I have the 2nd highest magic hit of any zerker world wide as of yesterday.  First on my server and 13th worldwide (thank you Sony for Rampage) but that's what I geared for....dps.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Lodoz - Archons - Nektulos<BR></DIV>

[Spaceweed]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Tundra Jack is hardly a raid mob, i watched 8 people kill him, your going to have to do better then that son.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I can do much better than that, 'son' - we were one grp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do yourself a favour and stick to what you are good at - ranting about broken arts/spells, and  debating whether a Berserker can dps @ 98.2 or 98.3.  Don't forget to take the following wind into account.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Spaceweed on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:36 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<P>I think Zerofault above your post here Spaceweed has something you might want to hear, because about all you supply here is hot air, and if 98.2 - 98.3 dps is all you do a fight, thats pretty....how does Zerofault put it, [Removed for Content] is the word i think he mentions.</P> <P>Its painful when someone proves you wrong isnt it Spaceweed, especially after being so sure of yourself.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:53 PM</span>

[Dashel]

I'm going to leave the argument that Guards tank more efficiently alone, since I really dont know for a fact either way if thats true or not.  I'll just say that on paper that makes sense, they are supposed to be better at mitigation.  As for Lodoz, let's just put to rest any "allegation" talk.  He is the MT for Archons.  I'm in the guild as a recruit and have been there for some of the harder fights like Borxx, Vox, Darathar.  I'm trying to gear myself as a DPS Zerker, and Lodoz was the Main Tank, he handled it like a champ.  The tanking group being made up of excellent players is part of it and gear is part of it, but thats the case with any guild and any Tank, right?  By the way this isnt "ideal" circumstances really either that I'm aware of.  Its a bunch of good players who worked through content, geared up and now can beat the crap out of stuff =)  I'm glad to be along for the ride heh. <div></div>

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spaceweed wrote:<BR><BR> <P>As for you, don't ever speak down to me again you little [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]e.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This coming from the guy who said "you dont know what you are talking about cause you aint been ON (not tanked) the high end raids I HAVE"?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Come on Space give me a break.  You start on that path you end on that path. Want people too speak nicely to you, start on the high path man.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for tanking high level mobs, I could give you my resume over the last 6+ years as I'm sure alot of peeps can.  EQ2 raids are *primitive* at this point. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From what I've read of this thread the main point is that a Bers can:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Tank raid mobs successfully</DIV> <DIV>2. Off tank raid mobs successfully</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont think anyone is advocating changing a Bers in front of a Guard.</DIV>

[Fundi]

<HR> I dont think anyone is advocating changing a Bers in front of a Guard. <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>       I sure am and the OP is too.  Berserkers have 1 single move that they can place on another player that makes their defense go up.  Guardians don't have a ton of moves that buff up other players for no reason.  It's to enhance the tanking ability of another person and to intercept damage to make it easier on the MT.  Don't make me laugh and say it's to guard the healers and dps for when then take aggro.  In a raid situation any dps or healer that takes aggro is going to die very quickly regardless of any shielding moves someone can place on them.</DIV> <DIV>       For proof, FIND A GUARDIAN WITH SIMILAR GEAR AS YOURS AND GET THEM TO BUFF UP AS IF THEY WERE TANKING.  YOU DO THE SAME.  Compare what you see.  It will be nearly identical.  Most people who advocate the MTage of a guardian over a berserker havn't any evidence of which is better.  Again I say, everyone just assumes that guardians are the ideal MT for raids because of MISCONCEPTIONS due to eq1 and the name "guardian".  In reality, the name guardian implies that they guard others, thus they have a lot of guarding moves.  These are useless when the guardian is MTing, BUT with someone else tanking, they are very useful.  The berserker as MT and guardian as backup works very well considering berserkers have moves that proc when they get hit, ie the Fury line of moves.  With guardian buffs, a berserker is definitely the best choice (provided they have better or equal gear than the other tanks) as the MT for raids.  If the guardian has better gear than the berserker, then he should be the tank, but if the berserker has > or = gear, he should tank.       </DIV>

[Ramir]

<EM> For proof, FIND A GUARDIAN WITH SIMILAR GEAR AS YOURS AND GET THEM TO BUFF UP AS IF THEY WERE TANKING.  YOU DO THE SAME.  Compare what you see. </EM> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You'll see the Guardian has about 10-13 more defense and hundreds more hit points.</DIV>

[d]

<DIV>The question between guardians and beserkers tanking high end raid mobs isn't a question of how good they are at tanking it, its the question of damage dealt to mob differential. The gaurdian is the obvious choice for tanking, since if they are off-tank they do comparative garbage dps anyhow compared to a zerker. If the zerker tanks its a waste of a strong raid DPS spot. Thats just the way I see it.</DIV>

[AlienR]

<P>Haven't been checking this thread, have been soaking up as much rampage time as I can before the patch.  =P</P> <P>Thanks for basically restating what I already said Aon.</P> <P>Hey can I get a screenie of a guardian with 15k hps?  There aren't any on my server, just wondering if anyone else has seen one buffed that extent?  Best I've seen is just under 10k.</P>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>You dont need a screenshot, have a look who owns the highest magical hit in the game, it belongs to a lvl 50 Guardian who did a little over 15k HP to himself with his new BC combat art. What ever HP you have left when the timer hits 0, is how much damage you take. And let me know what i restated that you said, you lost me a bit on that one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:31 AM</span>

[Fundi]

<P>      </P> <HR> <DIV>You'll see the Guardian has about 10-13 more defense and hundreds more hit points.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>     Yes, that would be true if the guardian chose stamina character traits and the berserker chose strength traits, but if both chose sta they would be the same.  Most of the berserkers I know chose str traits due to the common thinking that berserkers aren't raid tanks.</DIV>

[AlienR]

<P>Wow...that seems impossible.  The secondary guardian in our guild likes playing with that kamikazi art and his best hit was nearly 10k dmg with it....he's never seen 8500 fully buffed hps.  And you go look again....everyone in the top 10 is listed for 15k dmg....even if it were possible for one player worldwide to reach 15k hps ....surely there wouldnt be over 10 now would there?  /boggle</P>

[Zerofault]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV>You dont need a screenshot, have a look who owns the highest magical hit in the game, it belongs to a lvl 50 Guardian who did a little over 15k HP to himself with his new BC combat art. What ever HP you have left when the timer hits 0, is how much damage you take. And let me know what i restated that you said, you lost me a bit on that one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>04-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:31 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That is incorrect.. I have about 9k hps raid buffed... and I used this stupid Fing  spell and took nearly 12k dmg from the stupid pointles POS spell...  so its more like 150% of your hps....  That of course is an assumption also.. but I know for a fact you are wrong how it works..... and for some reason last I checked, mine isn't even showing up on the soe website...</P> <P> </P> <P>Lodoz</P> <DIV>EDIT:  I now have the 6th highest GAMEWIDE Magic Dmg MEWHAHAHA FEAR ME  lol</DIV><p>Message Edited by Zerofault on <span class=date_text>04-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:34 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Dont know whats up with it unless its a buggy spell, like others have already said, its puts them in a purple club state, if you got 9k HP and take 12k HP damage, no way your going to go purple club, every time i have used it, i have purple clubbed but died due to having a Dot effect, or mob was still alive when i died and still wailing on my a_ss, ive never taken 12 or 15k hp damage myself, always just enough to make me purple club so the healer has enough time to heal me and i jump back on my feet.</P> <P>Why its doing such a crazy amount of damage across the Warrior line is beyond me.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:16 PM</span>