Berserkers are High end MT's

[Zerofault]

The list goes on and on.... I joined the greatest guild on any server ever, period.. at least i believe this :smileytongue:  I am a 50 berserker and I have been the MT on every encounter we have tackled, including many server firsts.. Borxx, Venekor, Lord Nagalik.  Tonight as I post this we just spanked Darathar's scaley butt.  3 groups, not a single death.  We rocked this.....  So any berserkers with aspirations to be MT... tell your guardian to step aside and let you take the honors !

 

Lodoz - Nektulos - Archons

Message Edited by Zerofault on 03-31-2005 10:00 PM

[-Aonein-]

The thing is, the entire Fighter class can be High end MT's with the right raid formation. Since we all tank differently, we need different stratergy's, what works for Guardians isnt going to work for Monks, what works for Berserkers isnt going to work for Paladins and so on. Its just alot of people havent tryed different stratergys because they started winning with Guardians straight away making people think that Guardians were the prime choice for raids when in acual fact, any Fighter can tank a raid given the right cirumstances. Just like Pallies, Sk's, Monks and Brusiers have already proven, and now Berserkers.

Grats on your win Lodoz, good stuff.

Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker
16th Outfitter
Everfrost Server

Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )
70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist
Five Rings on Luclin Server

 

[DaemonSlay]

Anos right, any fighter class can be MT... but their tactics in battle would be differant

 

Gratz though!!!! Mighty victory.... Now go kill Lucan...

[Doloi]

The other night some guild pals and I finished DWB and as part of it we killed BloodTalon. We were a group of 5 level 23's and a level 21. BT actually aggro'd one of our healers, we didn't pull, and though there was a guardian in the group (barbarian guardian at that, I'm a ratonga berserker) I hit BT with everythng I had to pull him off the healer because she was on the verge of dying and I think the guardian was further away then I was. I ended up spending the first part of the fight laying off to try and let the guardian grab aggro, but with the first hit, HO, and some taunts, that thing was pretty well glued to me, so I just started unloading and we won the fight with ease. I don't really know anything about nameds, but the people in our guild were saying 5 23's and a 21 killing BT is pretty good...and we did it with my ratonga berserker tanking 

[Min]

Gratz on the tanking Lodoz, I know it feels good to lose the misconception that we Zerkers can't tank raid mobs.  I hope all those little Zerkers out that are reading this thread and can shrug off the "we can only be group tanks" mentality.   The fact is we are superb tanks and anyone who thinks differently just has to be shown, although we shouldn't have to prove it sometimes we do.

Kurrath
48 Berserker & Co-Leader of Misericordia
Mistmoore Server

[CherobylJ]

Grats man

[LauraG]

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Zerofault wrote:

The list goes on and on.... I joined the greatest guild on any server ever, period.. at least i believe this :smileytongue:  I am a 50 berserker and I have been the MT on every encounter we have tackled, including many server firsts.. Borxx, Venekor, Lord Nagalik.  Tonight as I post this we just spanked Darathar's scaley butt.  3 groups, not a single death.  We rocked this.....  So any berserkers with aspirations to be MT... tell your guardian to step aside and let you take the honors !

 

Lodoz - Nektulos - Archons

Message Edited by Zerofault on 03-31-2005 10:00 PM

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:smileyvery-happy:

[Zealbour]

Nonsence, Im tired of reading people verbally increase the effectiveness of their classes in some vain atempt to delude others to their abilities. Ive seen many guardians hack down the reqired power to heal in longterm raids. I know because I take the time to parse raid encounters. Dont think so? Look at just our abilities, most of them react to attacks with berserk/counterdamage. Did you even bother to read what the Guardians tank abilities do? No, its clear you didnt.

 

A well equiped 50berserker can outtank a regular equiped 50 Guardian. Equally geared the difference is staggering, even if it was as low at 10% less healpower required(looks more like 15-25% genreally) Its a huge difference on those epic X3 encounters. Keep it real, let the guardian tank.. cause he sure as hell cant deal our damage.

[Kannab]

Lol. not that we dont believe u ended up slaying it.

[AlienR]

Well said, I don't consider my 50 zerk to be dressed in the best gear but I know for a fact that the raid tanking guardians in my guild will perform far better against grp x4 mobs than I will.  I understand that the message being conveyed by the original poster is that zerkers can tank if needed to, and that's all well and good.  The fact is, in any given raid situation, other than having superior aggro management a zerker, monk or pally do not tank as well as a guardian.  Bottom line.

 

When a 47 guardian with inferior gear is able to solo the same mob I solo at 49, and finish with nearly full health versus my 15% health....there's a huge mitigation difference...and yes I realize they have haste debuffs.  We get nifty offensive buffs while they get sweet defense and mitigation buffs.  It's what we picked when we went zerker.

 

Yes we can tank...just not as well.

 

Oh...while we're talking about the nifty offense that zerkers have....if you haven't seen this already....have a quick read on what's in store for us.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=tup&message.id=39

If you read it closely, that's a broad nerf.  I expected the rampage nerf....just didn't expect it to carry over to so many combat arts.

[naeldayy]

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LauraG wrote:

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Zerofault wrote:

The list goes on and on.... I joined the greatest guild on any server ever, period.. at least i believe this :smileytongue:  I am a 50 berserker and I have been the MT on every encounter we have tackled, including many server firsts.. Borxx, Venekor, Lord Nagalik.  Tonight as I post this we just spanked Darathar's scaley butt.  3 groups, not a single death.  We rocked this.....  So any berserkers with aspirations to be MT... tell your guardian to step aside and let you take the honors !

 

Lodoz - Nektulos - Archons

Message Edited by Zerofault on 03-31-2005 10:00 PM

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:smileyvery-happy:

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Nothing wrong with trying to solo him first!

[Fundi]

        I totally agree with you Lodoz.  The ONLY reason that guardians are thought to be the best tanks is because of their name.  Nothing else.  I have a guardian friend and we both self buffed ourselves in defense mode.  Our mitigation and avoidance were nearly identical.  The real issue is that it doesn't matter if we can tank well or not.  If everyone else thinks that guardians can tank better, then we wont be the ones tanking epic encounters.  As of now in my guild I tank the epics, but that was because the guardians weren't lvl 50 yet.  In guild chat, everyone is always mentioning that the guardians will MT once they hit 50 (even though my gear is much better as well as my stats).  Makes no sense whatsoever.  It's just frustrating being able to do something, but since no one else thinks you can, they don't let you.  Guardians have so many avoidance buffs and intercept (GUARDING) buffs that they can put on others, that a berserker would be the better choice since the guardian can GUARD the berserker while he's tanking, so in effect the guardian WOULD partially be tanking, just without aggro.  Our guild actually did this while fighting the drakotas in Maiden's Gulch and it worked well (if it weren't for the massive aoe that killed everyone else).  All I ask is that people see who has the best gear and skills in the guild and choose the MT based on that, not on what class they are.  Guardians are not better tanks than berserkers, it's just misconception due to their name. 

[-Aonein-]

Its buff stacking thats the problem, if you look on the guard forum there is a full write up from a few Guards and how much avoidance they really do gain via there buffs, none of there buffs add over 1% to avoidance, its all around the 0.6% - 0.8%.

Berserkers can get around the 65% mark with a shield and Guardians get around the 70% mark with a shield, there isnt a huge difference, the difference is in there debuffs and there ability to increase their slashing, crushing and piercing mitigation.

Like i said earlier :

The thing is, the entire Fighter class can be High end MT's with the right raid formation. Since we all tank differently, we need different stratergy's, what works for Guardians isnt going to work for Monks, what works for Berserkers isnt going to work for Paladins and so on. Its just alot of people havent tryed different stratergys because they started winning with Guardians straight away making people think that Guardians were the prime choice for raids when in acual fact, any Fighter can tank a raid given the right cirumstances. Just like Pallies, Sk's, Monks and Brusiers have already proven, and now Berserkers.

Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker
16th Outfitter
Everfrost Server

Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )
70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist
Five Rings on Luclin Server

[AlienR]

I still debate we tank "as well" ....not that we "can't tank".  This thread makes it apparent we can, under ideal situations.  I only say ideal because obviously this zerker's gear is best suited for the job, as he was put in that role for his guild.  That's nice to see, but the point I'm making is that an equivalent geared guardian would require less support than he would.  I can't attest to our tanking ability, I've concentrated on dps since I hit 40 and still do at 50.  On raids, I blow rampage and level the adds so we have just the named to contend with.  Once I have aggro, I promptly eat dirt....it's simple.

 

Refer to my statement on my last post about the differences between our two classes regarding basic damage intake.  Basic meaning no support at all, and straight up solo.  Mob vs. player, a lower level guardian with less gearing will take less damage from a mob than a better equipped, higher level zerker.  This isn't an isolated instance, it's something I witnessed too many times while leveling up.  I solo'd 4 of my levels between 40 and 50, and on several occassions I found myself working near lower level guardians doing the same content solo....and with much more efficiency.

 

I'm not complaning, I went zerker to fill a dps role that had flavor and so I could tank if needed.  What does bother me is, knowing that I made that decision and experiencing constant nerfs to my damage capabilities.  Outside of rampage, I don't see zerkers as overpowered in that role and unless my guild suddenly has a wild notion to start handing me master items fit for a tanking role, I don't see the glaring need for a zerker on high end raiding situations other than filling out the ranks.  In a nutshell, I don't personally feel zerkers are better suited for the raid tanking position, I do feel we are better suited for quickly dispersing large groups of adds....but if we're losing 75% of that ability in the next patch...what does that leave me with if the lead tanks in my guild are guardians?

Message Edited by AlienRok on 04-02-2005 05:08 AM

[Padi]

I know at least one of you sited the fact that an equal level guardian can tank a mob 1-2 levels higher solo than a zerker as proof that they are far better tanks.  While it does show that they can make their effective level 1-2 higher than a zerker and thus tank mobs at that are below their level easier, that doesn't translate very well to mobs that are higher level than the 2 classes.  A mob 2 levels higher than either will not have troubles hitting either regardless of their defensive buff.

And there is no difference in avoidance or mitigation values from what I can see.  I've yet to see an equal level guardian with higher numbers than myself.  It's the defense buff they get that make them tank a level or 2 higher against a mob solo, because the higher defense makes a higher level mob effectly grey.  That doesn't mean there is a huge disparity once the mobs are higher level than both, because as you probably have noticed when in a group, yellows and oranges both easily hit you.

Message Edited by Padien on 04-02-2005 06:23 AM

[Zerofault]

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LauraG wrote:

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Zerofault wrote:

The list goes on and on.... I joined the greatest guild on any server ever, period.. at least i believe this :smileytongue:  I am a 50 berserker and I have been the MT on every encounter we have tackled, including many server firsts.. Borxx, Venekor, Lord Nagalik.  Tonight as I post this we just spanked Darathar's scaley butt.  3 groups, not a single death.  We rocked this.....  So any berserkers with aspirations to be MT... tell your guardian to step aside and let you take the honors !

 

Lodoz - Nektulos - Archons

Message Edited by Zerofault on 03-31-2005 10:00 PM

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:smileyvery-happy:

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LOL nice investigating... we broke off as one group and tested what AE he had so we could cure it and to see how hard he hit...  So I should clear that up, our first guild attempt to killing darathar, there was not a single death hehe

 

Lodoz

[Spaceweed]

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-Aonein- wrote:

Its buff stacking thats the problem, if you look on the guard forum there is a full write up from a few Guards and how much avoidance they really do gain via there buffs, none of there buffs add over 1% to avoidance, its all around the 0.6% - 0.8%.

Berserkers can get around the 65% mark with a shield and Guardians get around the 70% mark with a shield, there isnt a huge difference, the difference is in there debuffs and there ability to increase their slashing, crushing and piercing mitigation.

Like i said earlier :

The thing is, the entire Fighter class can be High end MT's with the right raid formation. Since we all tank differently, we need different stratergy's, what works for Guardians isnt going to work for Monks, what works for Berserkers isnt going to work for Paladins and so on. Its just alot of people havent tryed different stratergys because they started winning with Guardians straight away making people think that Guardians were the prime choice for raids when in acual fact, any Fighter can tank a raid given the right cirumstances. Just like Pallies, Sk's, Monks and Brusiers have already proven, and now Berserkers.

Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker
16th Outfitter
Everfrost Server

Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )
70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist
Five Rings on Luclin Server

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And your proof of this is where?

Have you taken on T'Haen yet?  Vox? The Arch Lich in The Feerrott?

I'm a 50th Berserker who has been on all of these raids on more than one occasion, and I see no evidence whatsoever that I could MT these mobs.  As for a Monk or Brawler - don't make me laugh, they would be gone in less than two hits.

If you are talking about a Zerker with full Ebon/epic rare chest drops, then you are not talking about the average Zerker.  It's like saying 'anyone can be President of the US - no, they can't.

[Spaceweed]

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Fundinn wrote:
        I totally agree with you Lodoz.  The ONLY reason that guardians are thought to be the best tanks is because of their name.  Nothing else.  I have a guardian friend and we both self buffed ourselves in defense mode.  Our mitigation and avoidance were nearly identical.  The real issue is that it doesn't matter if we can tank well or not.  If everyone else thinks that guardians can tank better, then we wont be the ones tanking epic encounters.  As of now in my guild I tank the epics, but that was because the guardians weren't lvl 50 yet.  In guild chat, everyone is always mentioning that the guardians will MT once they hit 50 (even though my gear is much better as well as my stats).  Makes no sense whatsoever.  It's just frustrating being able to do something, but since no one else thinks you can, they don't let you.  Guardians have so many avoidance buffs and intercept (GUARDING) buffs that they can put on others, that a berserker would be the better choice since the guardian can GUARD the berserker while he's tanking, so in effect the guardian WOULD partially be tanking, just without aggro.  Our guild actually did this while fighting the drakotas in Maiden's Gulch and it worked well (if it weren't for the massive aoe that killed everyone else).  All I ask is that people see who has the best gear and skills in the guild and choose the MT based on that, not on what class they are.  Guardians are not better tanks than berserkers, it's just misconception due to their name. 

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Ok, so you have the Guardian guard the Berserker while he MT's - why?

 

You are now using two classes to do the job one of those classes can do by himself, and losing the dps of the Berserker from the equation also,

 

The Berserker is a support tank/dps class, and does this job very well in a raid situation.  As this game stands at the moment, the Guardian is the no1 choice of MT at a raid - bar none.

[-Aonein-]

See Spaceweed is one of the many blind and very non skilled players who are lead to believe they cant tank :

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4810

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4463

Have i made you laugh yet Spaceweed? You clearly havent had a chance to tank none of this stuff, so you wouldnt even know.

Now ill say it once more, what works for a Guardian, isnt going to work for a Monk, what works for a Berserker isnt going to work for a Paladin and so on and so on. Every Fighter class can tank any part of the game, its the people like Spaceweed who try to lead people on a " Guardians are the best, forget the rest " mentaility, when there is people and guilds out there who devise the right game plans to suit the MT they have at the time, its called stratergy, not getting spoilers from other guilds and relying soley on Guardians. Its called Diversity. Read the boards more and get some facts before you assume what you dont even know your talking about. See the part above your post where it says Lodoz tested his ae with a group to see how they could go about curing it? Its called planning ahead, and devising a game plan, stratergy.

Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker
16th Outfitter
Everfrost Server

Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )
70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist
Five Rings on Luclin Server

Message Edited by -Aonein- on 04-03-2005 01:33 PM

[-Aonein-]

Oh and while im at it before i forget, scroll down in one of those screen shots, and he also tanked Arch Lich Uldaan, lvl 54 ^^^ group x4 epic raid mob. And other Bruisers have also tanked this stuff and they state that in the threads.

Now the ironic thing about it all is, Bruisers are a Offensive Brawler, and a Monk is a Defensive Brawler. Just like a Berserker is a Offensive Warrior and a Guardian is a Defensive Warrior, so please Spaceweed, dont make me laugh.

Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker
16th Outfitter
Everfrost Server

Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )
70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist
Five Rings on Luclin Server

[SageMarrow]

great post aonein as always,

The bottom line is that some classes sacrificed defense for offense. I knew it when i played a bruiser, and you knew it when you played a zerker.

Its not the same situation as with a caster type or with a scout type, in the lines of what is TANKING - offensive and defensive matters greatly. Now i will admit that if SOE planned on having offensive/defensive based tanks, then they shouldve made the kill speed difference able to surmount that lack of defense so that the OFFENSIVE types could balance that bogus ratio that is offense to defense.

That in essence would be balance in the fighter archetype. Within the current setup, the differences between a shadowknight and a paladins tanking ability is SOOOO apparent it causes a stir. Simply because the shadowknight doesnt kill the mob at the same rate that the paladin can sustain his own Hp.

Same thing in relation to guardian/zerkers. Zerkers shouldve had some form of damage increase while tanking exclusively so that they do great or even massive dps while tanking to balance the simple consistency based tanking of a guardian.

So yes, people would be able to pick the flavor of tank they so choose with the tradeoffs being understood. Instead they just gave 2 classes a leg up on the defensive side of abilities and expected it to be okay. (guardian and paladin).

At the least offensive classes shouldnt have been able to recieve riposte and parry and such. That might just throw the balance of being an offensive tank into the realm of holding aggro a bit better and killing the mob faster as opposed to the slow and steady approach provided by a guardian.

That TO ME = would be a better direction for achieving balance.

 

Message Edited by SageMarrow on 04-02-2005 09:33 PM

[Zerofault]

Vox dead, Venekor dead, T'haaen - workin on, Arch Lich dead, darathar dead, borxx dead, Lord Nagalik dead, all instances dead (cept zek)... not a full list.. but ALL these killed with ME as MT.. 50 zerker, and my gear is improving, but it wasn't always this good when I started tanking and we were still winning.

 

Lodoz - Nektulos - Archons

Message Edited by Zerofault on 04-03-2005 03:39 AM

[Fundi]

      I'm telling you right now.  If you are a berserker going dps in a raid situation and you aren't taking aggro, then you aren't doing good dps.  The reason that berserkers aren't a dps class is that we have no detaunts/hate reducers.  Please think about this.  Even though a berserker CAN do more dps than any class in game, they CAN NOT do it without taking aggro.  SO, in order to keep from taking aggro the berserker has to cut their dps drasticly, thus getting outdamaged by all the other dps classes, making us in effect a crappy dps class when not tanking.  If you don't cut your dps, you are going to take aggro and die very quickly thus cutting your dps for you. 

       Ask a guardian friend of yours to self buff one day and you do the same and compare what you see.  Similarly equipped guardians and berserkers will have similar mitigation and avoidance.  People who think berserkers are not tanks are just going by misconceptions from eq1.  I wish players would realize that this is a totally different game. 

 Oh, and P.S., there is no way you are rampaging when not tanking and not stealing aggro.  The move does too massive of damage for that to be so.

[Fundi]

     Oh, and about monks and bruisers.  I agree that they would die very quickly tanking in any raid situation as the game is now.  All fighters are meant to be tanks and tank to varying degrees of success based solely on their gear and playing abilities, not their class.  The devs are working to make this so and I believe they will succede. 

     One problem that I have with the game is that there is only 1 MT in a raid and 1 backup and the other tanks are pretty much useless.  Conversely, you need many dps classes and 4+ healers for group x2 and up.  The thing is, there are the same number of fighter classes as their are scout, priest, and mage, thus there will be similar numbers of people playing as fighters, but the demand for fighters in groups is just not there.  You only need 1 in an XP group and 2 MAYBE 3 in a raid.  I'm sure you can see the problem.  In a few months, once most people are done lvling, there are going to be a lot of fighters with nothing to do.  In fact, I've started lvling an illusionist just in case they don't have a fix for this problem.  One way SOE can combat this is to make more zones like Nektropos: Revisited (which is very fun I might add).  I'm hoping they come up with ways to make having more than 2 tanks useful in raid situations, but if they don't and my guild doesn't choose me as MT, then I'll always have my enchanter to fall back on.

     I know this doesn't really fit in this topic, but starting new ones is too much work.  Please forgive me and think about my thoughts =).

[-Aonein-]

Multiple tanks on raids is a good thing, especially when you have balanced groups, you need multiple tanks and balanced groups on raids for the simple fact who is going to tank adds if encounters ever decide to start popping ^^ lvl 54 mobs during the fight? Wizard? Scout? Preist? I dont think so, and the MT is to busy controlling the Raid mob itself, and unless the mobs are attacking someone in the MT's group setup, then group buffs arent going to peel those mobs off and too the MT himself, so thats where people will need or start to need multiple tanks. Another reason for multiple tanks is to dissapte damage done in a raid encounter so that it still makes it possible to keep a MT alive, having the MT take 7500 damage while the Healers are only healing him for 8000 isnt effcient, and your riding deaths door, when you can easily have off tanks tank those extra few adds to lessen the impact of damage done to the MT, while the MT maintains agro on the main raid mob himself, DPS in the raid turn its attention to the adds, burning those down then back to main raid mob, and rinse repeat in the event it happens again.

Raids might be just one mob or linked encounters at the current moment with a low possibility of adds, almost no possibility, but give it time, and i do believe they will increase it above 24 people one day, wont be anytime soon, but they will, they will have too, it cant revolve around 24 people forever.

Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker
16th Outfitter
Everfrost Server

Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )
70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist
Five Rings on Luclin Server

Message Edited by -Aonein- on 04-03-2005 10:23 PM

[Spaceweed]

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-Aonein- wrote:

See Spaceweed is one of the many blind and very non skilled players who are lead to believe they cant tank :

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4810

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4463

Have i made you laugh yet Spaceweed? You clearly havent had a chance to tank none of this stuff, so you wouldnt even know.

Now ill say it once more, what works for a Guardian, isnt going to work for a Monk, what works for a Berserker isnt going to work for a Paladin and so on and so on. Every Fighter class can tank any part of the game, its the people like Spaceweed who try to lead people on a " Guardians are the best, forget the rest " mentaility, when there is people and guilds out there who devise the right game plans to suit the MT they have at the time, its called stratergy, not getting spoilers from other guilds and relying soley on Guardians. Its called Diversity. Read the boards more and get some facts before you assume what you dont even know your talking about. See the part above your post where it says Lodoz tested his ae with a group to see how they could go about curing it? Its called planning ahead, and devising a game plan, stratergy.

Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker
16th Outfitter
Everfrost Server

Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )
70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist
Five Rings on Luclin Server

Message Edited by -Aonein- on 04-03-2005 01:33 PM

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Why am I a 'non skilled player' because I have yet to see evidence of certain 'tank' classes fronting a decent raid mob?

You're pics show me some interesting information which I haven't seen before, and does surprise me to a degree.  I do note there isn't a shot of a Berserker there..but I'm sure you will find one for me.

The bottom line is, Guardians tank raid mobs 'better' and are currently first choice in raids.  Don't mislead people into thinking they are going to be doing a job that they - for 95% of the time - aren't going to be doing in a raid guild.

As for 'believing they can't tank', I have tanked this game from lvl 10 to lvl 50 so I know we can tank xp mobs and the very ordinary 'raid' mobs in these areas - I tanked Tundra Jack @ lvl 43, so don't tell me what I can and can't do.

If the game stays fundamentally the same, Berserkers/Monks/Bruisers etc, will get little to no chance of 'attempting' to tank the big boys, and as more and more dps classes level thru 50, we will be come a redundant entity.  Nobody is more p!ssed off about this situation than me.  I started to play this game to tank raids, and I believe I was mislead by SOE on their description of the fighter archetype.  If they had given us an honest assessment, I would have chosen a Guardian.

As for you, don't ever speak down to me again you little [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]e.

[Spaceweed]

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-Aonein- wrote:

Multiple tanks on raids is a good thing, especially when you have balanced groups, you need multiple tanks and balanced groups on raids for the simple fact who is going to tank adds if encounters ever decide to start popping ^^ lvl 54 mobs during the fight? Wizard? Scout? Preist? I dont think so, and the MT is to busy controlling the Raid mob itself, and unless the mobs are attacking someone in the MT's group setup, then group buffs arent going to peel those mobs off and too the MT himself, so thats where people will need or start to need multiple tanks. Another reason for multiple tanks is to dissapte damage done in a raid encounter so that it still makes it possible to keep a MT alive, having the MT take 7500 damage while the Healers are only healing him for 8000 isnt effcient, and your riding deaths door, when you can easily have off tanks tank those extra few adds to lessen the impact of damage done to the MT, while the MT maintains agro on the main raid mob himself, DPS in the raid turn its attention to the adds, burning those down then back to main raid mob, and rinse repeat in the event it happens again.

Raids might be just one mob or linked encounters at the current moment with a low possibility of adds, almost no possibility, but give it time, and i do believe they will increase it above 24 people one day, wont be anytime soon, but they will, they will have too, it cant revolve around 24 people forever.

Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker
16th Outfitter
Everfrost Server

Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )
70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist
Five Rings on Luclin Server

Message Edited by -Aonein- on 04-03-2005 10:23 PM

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And therein lies the job of the Berserker in a standard raid.  King Drayek is a good example of where the Berserker starts to shine, as is the Feerrott instance with the eyes - don't put a round peg into a square hole, regardless of how much you 'love' the class.

Reading some of your posts, it seems you have an obsession with them - do you dress as one at home when you play?

 

[AlienR]

Losing interest beating a dead horse here but Aonein, you sound like a fairly inteligent person so I'll spare some un-needed details here.  You've said it at least twice that each sub-class will have to handle tanking differently it's just a matter of who's tanking that determines what they do.  Not sure I really get you on this one, and what I mean is....Guardians, Zerkers, Monks, Bruisers, Pallys and SKs all have "X" amount of health.  Each one of them has "X" amount of mitigating abilities whether it be buffs, gear or innate abilities or stats...hell even racial selection.  By the way, that last sentence is where I think you're going with your point.  Each one of those subclasses varies mostly by these mitigating factors....not health, because anyone of those classes can obtain gear or be buffed to equivalent hps...the only thing that would make a difference would be your race if equally geared and buffed.   I hope we all agree with what I've said so far.

 

Ok so now you have all these varying levels of mitigation or avoidance to compare.  Guardians having a nice blend of both due to their self buffs, where as we don't.  I will say, that this shouldn't be the case....the reason I say that is due to the fact that several of our self defense buffs do absolutely nothing.  If you open up your skill stats window, your character hud window, and your persona window and buff yourself with each one of your buffs....singularly not all together as to illiminate any stacking issues...you'll notice that only three of your buffs actually affect your stats....and only two of them stack.  Our defensive stances....work.  Our weapon shield which is merely a parry buff...works.  Our low level short duration defense buff (forget the name) actually works.  Our stifled rage line of defense buffs....affect nothing.  Hunker down....does nothing.  And come to think of it....I need to re-test Anarchy...because at master 1 I don't believe my avoidance number is moving with it up.  Even our Infuriation, Vehemence and Stand firm targetted buffs do nothing for any visible stat.

If....all of those abilities/ buffs were fixed...we might actually tank more comparably to a guardian.  Again....this isn't an argument of whether a zerker CAN tank.....the point is that we dont tank AS EFFICIENTLY as a guardian.  It's mathematics.

Yes, said poster child zerker here has alledgedly tanked very difficult content....and I'm very excited about that.  For those of us who don't know how that's possible, it's quite simple....GEAR.  I'll wager to say several of his slotted items have +vs Crush, Pierce and Slashing dmg on them.  Those items are invaluable to a MT.  Our best tank is probably pushing 400 in each of those areas, and the difference between him and even the other guardians in our guild are staggering.  If you want to raid tank as a zerker....insist on tanking gear....not strength enhanced dps gear....which is what I've done so far.  I'm not regretful either....I have the 2nd highest magic hit of any zerker world wide as of yesterday.  First on my server and 13th worldwide (thank you Sony for Rampage) but that's what I geared for....dps.

[AlienR]

double post

Message Edited by AlienRok on 04-03-2005 07:08 PM

[SageMarrow]

The bottom line is, Guardians tank raid mobs 'better' and are currently first choice in raids.  Don't mislead people into thinking they are going to be doing a job that they - for 95% of the time - aren't going to be doing in a raid guild.

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within the system currently in place, guardians will always be the most defensive tank to some extent, so that simple fact wont change... no matter what change they make unless they take the guards defense down to zerker or paladin levels and give them a dps boost...

but then they would be just zerkers with defensive buffs...