Berserk, and how it relates to defense.

[Huna]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I know going berserk doesn't affect your defense in any way. Originally it did, but they changed it a long time ago. I'm just posting this because I have seen quite a few people saying not to go berserk because it lowers your defense, I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. So, knowing that it doesn't affect defense should get more people using it and also increase their ability for dps. If anyone has a link to a dev post that says it does or does not affect defense, please post it.

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hunadi wrote:<BR>Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I know going berserk doesn't affect your defense in any way. Originally it did, but they changed it a long time ago. I'm just posting this because I have seen quite a few people saying not to go berserk because it lowers your defense, I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. So, knowing that it doesn't affect defense should get more people using it and also increase their ability for dps. If anyone has a link to a dev post that says it does or does not affect defense, please post it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I belive you are correct I have never, subjectively speaking, seen my defense drop while berserk.  Imagine Aon can comment on this from a parse perspective.

[Ender]

Going berserk adds 5% DPS and 35% increased attack speed. Nowhere does it ever lower defense.

[Wolver]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EnderMX wrote:<BR>Going berserk adds 5% DPS and 35% increased attack speed. Nowhere does it ever lower defense.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I know it's the discription given in game but I do find it weird, as if increased haste wouldn't increase dps. Not sure how these things can be affected seperately...</DIV>

[Zuzu_Angelblade]

<DIV>I think the confusion comes from a few things:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   Blood Rage takes health when it procs, so when you use this your health drops faster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>also</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  The official description of Focus Rage from <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/classes/index.vm?classId=4" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/classes/index.vm?classId=4</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><B><FONT color=#ffffff>Class</FONT></B><B><FONT color=#ffffff>Spell Name </FONT></B><B><FONT color=#ffffff>Skill</FONT></B><B><FONT color=#ffffff>Level</FONT></B><B><FONT color=#ffffff>Power Cost </FONT></B><B><FONT color=#ffffff>Concentration</FONT></B><B><FONT color=#ffffff>Description</FONT></B>BerserkerFocus Rageberserk2001Focuses damage taken into a rage that will sometimes cause a berserk state. When berserk, a berserker loses some defense, but gains increased damage and attack rate. In addition, the berserker may use certain combat arts that require the berserk state.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The description could be wrong, that wouldnt suprise me</DIV>

[Ender]

That description is NOT the same description in game. The description in game does not mention losing defense.

[DaemonSlay]

<DIV>You dont lose defense... i became confused as alot of people were saying that you did...</DIV> <DIV>but it appears that you dont... however i think that because you are attakcing more, it means more riptostes? read that somewhere too...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm certain that it doesnt lower your DEF</DIV>

[Dulbec]

<DIV>If ripostes were a substantial concern about the added haste, do MTs seriously ask NOT to be hasted by enchanters?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It just seems weird to worry about 35% haste when we ask to be buff-hasted all the time.  Also, does berserk rage stack with chanter haste?  How do haste caps affect this combination?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know that going unhasted for a warrior was death for aggro in EQL, but i seriously don't know in this game.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Dulbecco on <span class=date_text>02-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:16 AM</span>

[Namsin]

ClassSpell Name SkillLevelPower Cost ConcentrationDescriptionBerserkerFocus Rageberserk2001Focuses damage taken into a rage that will sometimes cause a berserk state. When berserk, a berserker loses some defense, but gains increased damage and attack rate. In addition, the berserker may use certain combat arts that require the berserk state.well .. even if you do lose a little defense .. it apparently isnt vey noticeable.

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>You do not recieve any negative effect's any more from Berserk, they fixed it quite awhile ago. Riposte's in EQ2 arent as a big concern like they were in EQ1 cause chance to Riposte in EQ1 was much greater on the mob's there then it is here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beside's using a parser to check that Berserk does not effect our defense, open your window's like Skill's and Persona window's, if number's dont decrease during Berserk, nothing is being reduced. The only way mitigation can be reduced is if Defense get's lowered or AC get's lowered. I have parsed over hundred's of thousand's damage now coming into the million's ( yes i have no life :smileywink:, ), and havent noticed Berserk to lower my mitigation / defense ever. Dont forget that mob's now have the chance to hit you as much as you hit them now and also have a higher chance at hitting you for max damage, that was implemented just after the first big patch i believe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>02-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:00 AM</span>

[Toxa]

<DIV>why is it that i notice, when i have 2 stacked berzerk icons, that my tanking ability suddenly plummets? this is a bug, right? I've noticed this on many occasions. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I tank great normally, but when that 2nd berzerk stacks, i really seem to take a beating.</DIV>

[Erick_Stormfu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV>You do not recieve any negative effect's any more from Berserk, they fixed it quite awhile ago. Riposte's in EQ2 arent as a big concern like they were in EQ1 cause chance to Riposte in EQ1 was much greater on the mob's there then it is here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beside's using a parser to check that Berserk does not effect our defense, open your window's like Skill's and Persona window's, if number's dont decrease during Berserk, nothing is being reduced. The only way mitigation can be reduced is if Defense get's lowered or AC get's lowered. I have parsed over hundred's of thousand's damage now coming into the million's ( yes i have no life :smileywink:, ), and havent noticed Berserk to lower my mitigation / defense ever. Dont forget that mob's now have the chance to hit you as much as you hit them now and also have a higher chance at hitting you for max damage, that was implemented just after the first big patch i believe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>02-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:00 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>THIS IS FALSE!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it doesn't effect your defense score, but IT DOES EFFECT YOUR MITIGATION.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>with a group very hard or double arrow green mob, I can solo it without a problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the key.... limit my beserk ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when i have no beserks up what so ever, I will regenerate more hit points then the mob can inflict on me... he'll hit me for around 40 points every 3 or 4 rounds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when i get a single beserk, he'll hit me for about 80 points of damage ever 3 or 4 rounds....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when i get the second beserk up, he hits me for 200+ points every 3 or 4 rounds........</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IT DOES EFFECT YOUR MITIGATION!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Erick</DIV><BR>

[Erick_Stormfu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toxaur wrote:<BR> <DIV>why is it that i notice, when i have 2 stacked berzerk icons, that my tanking ability suddenly plummets? this is a bug, right? I've noticed this on many occasions. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I tank great normally, but when that 2nd berzerk stacks, i really seem to take a beating.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Your correct, the previous poster is smoking crack.  His parsing is all messed up or something, i've tested this time after time after time.</P> <P>He's right, in that you don't see your AC in your AC window drop, however, YOU CERTAINLY SEE THE EFFECTS.</P> <P> </P> <P>-Erick</P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erick_Stormfury wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toxaur wrote:<BR> <DIV>why is it that i notice, when i have 2 stacked berzerk icons, that my tanking ability suddenly plummets? this is a bug, right? I've noticed this on many occasions. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I tank great normally, but when that 2nd berzerk stacks, i really seem to take a beating.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Your correct, the previous poster is smoking crack.  His parsing is all messed up or something, i've tested this time after time after time.</P> <P>He's right, in that you don't see your AC in your AC window drop, however, YOU CERTAINLY SEE THE EFFECTS.</P> <P> </P> <P>-Erick</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Erick your forgetting one thing, none of our Berserk's reduce our mitigation what so ever unless there is a few that are bugged, none of them state even that like they <STRONG><U>use</U></STRONG> too. Agility has been nerfed and Mob's have been increased to hit <STRONG><U>more</U></STRONG> often and have a higher chance to hit for full damage. Because Agility has been nerfed and Mob's attack rating have been increased plus the chance to hit for full damage more often, of course it's going to look like it's Berserk's fault, it's the first thing people are going to blame before thinking about what else has been changed. I have had 2 Berserk icon's flashing periodically, constantly, Dual weilding on mob's 5 level's higher then me, and my mitigation hasnt changed. Ive had 2 Berserk icon's flashing on group's of Mob's with 5-6 mob's per group and my mitigation hasnt changed, if it had of changed during group encounter's 5+ lvl's higher then me, not only would of my parser picked it up, but my own eye's would of seen a huge difference with 5-6 mob's hitting you. You wouldnt miss it, and if i had seen it, i would of said yes i seen it.</P> <P>Have you also stopped to think what the second icon is that's flashing for you is a bugged skill reducing your mitigation? Have you figured out what the second icon flashing is form, in other word's have you tested every single Berserk proc by itself to see which one may or may not be bugged? Another thing is, there is no point in having 2 Berserk icon's flashing, unless you are under level 37, once you get Tide's of War, just concentrate on one Berserk icon flashing cause Haste percentage is lvl capped, so figure out which Berserk icon is reducing mitigation for you and stop using it, cause my mitigation dont change, even with 2 Berserk icon's flashing even though the second is just a waste.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[Davish_Darkwolf]

<DIV>Fortunately going Berserk doesnt lower our defense at all.  Else we would be severely gimped.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Been seing posts regarding this misconception everywhere.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, from my own experience, Soldier's Stance is NOT better than Reckless Stance.  Been testing this for 2 days now and i mitigate better with Reckless than with Soldier's   (even without  Weapon Shield up).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>One more thing, Mitigation is based of number's, there is <STRONG><U>no</U></STRONG> hidden number's for mitigation, for mitigation to be affected, number's that you can see have to be changed, if number's dont change, mitigation doesnt change, unless of course the mob's get stronger, and your mitigation stay's the same. For example :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Toughness App 3 :</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Definition : Toughness increases your pysical <STRONG><U>mitigation</U></STRONG> for a short time.</DIV> <UL> <LI>Increases AC of caster vs crushing damage by 7</LI> <LI>Increase AC of caster vs slashing and piercing damage by 9</LI></UL> <P>Meaning, that these number's are included in the AC <STRONG><U>total</U></STRONG>, buff your self with Toughness and watch your AC value change, but it say's it raise's mitigation, not AC, see where im going with this? When you put on a Shield, your AC change's, but the AC value from a Shield doesnt change Mitigation, it's value get's added to AC value and we get the chance to Block = Avoidance. Parry skill get's added to the AC value, but it's value get's added to the Avoidance side of the number since Parry doesnt help you mitigate anything, help's you too avoid attack's. Reckless Stance add's to Defense, Defense get's added to your AC value, but Defense is on the Mitigation side of the number.</P> <P>AC equal's two value's, <STRONG><U>Mitigation value</U></STRONG> and <STRONG><U>Avoidance value</U></STRONG>, for ethier of them to change, as in get greater or less, the AC number has to change in the region of greater or less or nothing change's at all, but just because AC value change's doesnt alway's mean your mitigation has been affected, it could be your Avoidance value part of the AC number that has been effected, or it could be the Mitigation part of the value that's only effected, or it could be a combination of both from a certain spell from a mob  ie; Lower's Mitigation and Avoidance of target, Lower's Mitigation or Lower's Avoidance.</P> <P>I know what people are seeing when they have 2 Berserk Icon's flashing and it's sudden burst's of HP dropping rapidly as if your mitigation and avoidance has dropped, but this can still happen and does happen with no Berserk Icon's flashing, or 1 Berserk Icon, flashing, and can happen just as much. The sudden burst decrease in HP can also be because the mob has acually casted a negative effect spell on you reducing your mitigation / avoidance AC, it could also be a negative effect spell like a DS ( Damage Shield ) put on you so when you hit the mob it hurt's you, but the problem is, it doesnt come up and say, Mob_01 Shield of Flame hit's you for 127, all it say's is, Mob_01 hit's you for 127, reason im thinking this is because ive noticed alot of people taking damage lately, but it's not Barrage damage when i ask, it's just pure <STRONG><U>hit's</U></STRONG>, nothing else, so realistically, you dont know if it's a DS doing the damage, a burst of Riposte's for a few second's or if the mob has cast negative effect spell's on you to lower your Mitigation / Avoidance value. Another to make sure to check is Special's by mob's, they drop anyone like a rock, no matter what there mitigation or avoidance is.</P> <P>Got to stop looking at your HP and start running test's with window's open and parser's, also take note of what negative spell effect's get cast on you and try your hardest to examine them while there on you, they will give you a descritpion of what they do.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>02-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:23 PM</span>

[Spaceweed]

<DIV> Firstly, it seems quite a complicated equation to actually figure out what is going on.  To define it - if the mechanics you describe are true - would be almost impossible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are so many bugs in this game, that without seeing how damage/mitigation is actually calculated taking all arts/skills into account, it's hard to figure out if something is bugged or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Until all this info is provided, it's pretty much a moot point.  Keep on discussing though, makes for interesting reading :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[The-Preach]

<DIV>Well [FAAR-NERFED!], wish I'd known they changed it. I used to use berserk all the time, mainly with bloodlust...then they changed that some, and it wasn't worth using anymore, because I -did- take more damage. At the time it was easy to notice, so I stopped using it all together. Thanks to this thread, I'll have to start using focus rage again. (Since Bloodlust is kind of outdated now.) Good times! ^__^</DIV>

[Erick_Stormfu]

<DIV>Have tested this extensively....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all rages are broken if what your saying is true.... i think your just wrong.  no where has sony ever said beserk rage doesnt effect how much damage you take.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>single rage, i tank as if i'm basically one level lower then i really am, two rages actice i tank as if i'm two levels lower....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>tested over and over and over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>go check you parsing...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>its actually very simple to see... i encourage everyone to experiment, you can do this without parsing its so odvious.  go find a group double arrow up green mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>buff up normal buffs (for level 32), reckless, weapon shield, havoc, etc... DO NOT buff anything that will put you into rage.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now, as you start to fight, only use skills that WONT put you into rage... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you'll see you will be healing more damage then your taking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now, fire off a skill that will send you into a rage... balok's/enrage is great for this, because it almost ensures you'll go into rage....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you'll find your taking about twice the damage you were before, still not bad, because you barely were taking any damage, but enough so that your starting to fall in health....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now rinse and repeat, only this time, after you get your first rage up, add focus rage, or use some of your other skills that put you into rage...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when you get your second rage icon blinking, BLAM now your getting the CRAP kicked out of you.  you will be taking 4-5 times as much damage as you were unraged.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this isn't just a few times, YOU CAN DO THIS EVERY SINGLE TIME, try it before you come here proclaiming "WE DONT TAKE MORE DAMAGE WHEN RAGED BECAUSE THE LITTLE DESCRIPTION BOX DOES SAY THAT I DO".  TEST IT, then come back and tell me what you say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Erick</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spaceweed wrote:<BR> <DIV> Firstly, it seems quite a complicated equation to actually figure out what is going on.  To define it - if the mechanics you describe are true - would be almost impossible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are so many bugs in this game, that without seeing how damage/mitigation is actually calculated taking all arts/skills into account, it's hard to figure out if something is bugged or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Until all this info is provided, it's pretty much a moot point.  Keep on discussing though, makes for interesting reading :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>And that's exactlly how SoE probally want it, keeping it from being defined keep's us on our toe's, makes it more exciting, once EQ1 mitigation was defined it was all down hill from there, tank's knew what they needed, new encounter's were basically the same over and over again, not much changed, mob's got stronger and more HP, tank's got more HP / AC, it was all trivial. There was basically no challenge, till they released GoD and OoW and made raid's locked to 54 people, it was the only way to break the cycle, plus making encounter's some of the most challenging ever seen in the game for a 54 man / woman raid.</P> <P>Point is, trivialising thing's make's them boring and turn's it into a grind. It's acually not a moot point, Moorgard has posted on many forum's about how AC is calculated with mitigation / avoidance and how a shield / spell's / combat art's also work, but you are right about so many skill's being bugged, but we have had alot of our skill's fixed and tweaked, there getting there.</P> <P>Here is some more reading material i have gathered along my track's, there is a few key point's in these that reguard all Tank class's, but some of the point's that are noted in the post's and toward's said class, see what you come up with.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=2793#M2793" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=2793#M2793</A></P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=2835#M2835" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=2835#M2835</A></P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=26408#M26408" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=26408#M26408</A></P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=8186#M8186" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=8186#M8186</A></P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erick_Stormfury wrote:<BR> <DIV>Have tested this extensively....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all rages are broken if what your saying is true.... i think your just wrong.  no where has sony ever said beserk rage doesnt effect how much damage you take.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>single rage, i tank as if i'm basically one level lower then i really am, two rages actice i tank as if i'm two levels lower....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>tested over and over and over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>go check you parsing...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>its actually very simple to see... i encourage everyone to experiment, you can do this without parsing its so odvious.  go find a group double arrow up green mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>buff up normal buffs (for level 32), reckless, weapon shield, havoc, etc... DO NOT buff anything that will put you into rage.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now, as you start to fight, only use skills that WONT put you into rage... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you'll see you will be healing more damage then your taking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now, fire off a skill that will send you into a rage... balok's/enrage is great for this, because it almost ensures you'll go into rage....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you'll find your taking about twice the damage you were before, still not bad, because you barely were taking any damage, but enough so that your starting to fall in health....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now rinse and repeat, only this time, after you get your first rage up, add focus rage, or use some of your other skills that put you into rage...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when you get your second rage icon blinking, BLAM now your getting the CRAP kicked out of you.  you will be taking 4-5 times as much damage as you were unraged.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this isn't just a few times, YOU CAN DO THIS EVERY SINGLE TIME, try it before you come here proclaiming "WE DONT TAKE MORE DAMAGE WHEN RAGED BECAUSE THE LITTLE DESCRIPTION BOX DOES SAY THAT I DO".  TEST IT, then come back and tell me what you say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Erick</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Erick i fight lvl 45+ mob's, <STRONG>^^</STRONG> mob's that usally come with a small group of 1 or 2 <STRONG>^</STRONG> mob's, lvl 45+ group encounter that consist of 5-6 mob's each encounter, what im trying to say is, with this amount of mob's at that level, im bound to almost alway's having 2 berserk icon flashing, just like i said above in a few post's up replying to one of your's, but my HP doesnt drop like you are stating. One reason it could be is because you are lvl 32 stuck 8 level's behind me ( almost 9 ) and im not using certain Berserk proc probability combat art's that you would be using at your current level, meaning that maybe one or two of the Berserk proc probability combat art's in your level range <STRONG><U>could</U></STRONG> be bugged. I have no problem tanking multiple lvl 45+ mob's, solo, single <STRONG>^^</STRONG>, group encounter's, group encounter's with numerous <STRONG>^</STRONG>, I tank Devout Thule in Feerrott and have had 2 Berserk Icon's flashing at time's during that fight, now since your level 32, you will have no idea what i am talking about, so ill just leave it at that. Let me come down to your level a bit, ill throw this in there for something to think about, you know in Zek, all the small <STRONG>group</STRONG> <STRONG>x2</STRONG> encounter's that consist of 4 mob's, 3 normal and one <STRONG>^^</STRONG> mini boss mob in there? Well i could solo the group x2 encounter's at lvl 39, <STRONG>fully</STRONG> buffed, and procing 2 berserk's during the encounter, i had no problem tanking these when they were green, i have no problem duoing green, blue, and certain white con mob's reguardless of if there ethier solo, single <STRONG>^^</STRONG>, group encounter's, once they become yellow and higher, they need to be group's to take them down.</P> <P>One last thing, let me ask this again since you speak of testing, have you tested each and every Berserk proc probability combat art we have in the book <STRONG><U>individually</U></STRONG> to see which one might be reducing your mitigation that you seem to be the only one proclaiming ? Only thing you have seemed to extensively test is multiple buff's at one time, how many nail's can you hit on the head at once when you have 10 in front of you?</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <P> </P>

[Xas]

<DIV>I just want to throw my two cents in here. Could it be something else entirely? IE you are taking more damage with 2 icons flashing than not, but not for the reason that you think? Could the causality be different?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IE, you think</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>cause: two zerk icons flashing</DIV> <DIV>effect: more damage comes in</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but instead, could it be?</DIV> <DIV>casue: more damage comes in</DIV> <DIV>effect, more zerk effects fire off making more of them flash</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just a thought.</DIV>

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV>You do not recieve any negative effect's any more from Berserk, they fixed it quite awhile ago. Riposte's in EQ2 arent as a big concern like they were in EQ1 cause chance to Riposte in EQ1 was much greater on the mob's there then it is here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beside's using a parser to check that Berserk does not effect our defense, open your window's like Skill's and Persona window's, if number's dont decrease during Berserk, nothing is being reduced. The only way mitigation can be reduced is if Defense get's lowered or AC get's lowered. I have parsed over hundred's of thousand's damage now coming into the million's ( yes i have no life :smileywink:, ), and havent noticed Berserk to lower my mitigation / defense ever. Dont forget that mob's now have the chance to hit you as much as you hit them now and also have a higher chance at hitting you for max damage, that was implemented just after the first big patch i believe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>02-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:00 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>See I told ya he would have the parses :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>I have never seen the "double berserk damage casacade" that Erik mentions, however I dont disbelieve him.  Is it possible that its a *particular* set of double berserk in a particular order?  I'm 39 and have tanked solo/group quite a few mobs using both focus rage berserk and other berserk skills and never seen that dramatic mitigation loss.  Maybe I just dont hit the same combo in the same order.  Also if it does happen hitting the Rage skill usually will cancel one of the berserk icons (maybe alleviating the casacade?).</P> <P>Also, my understanding of mitigation is that the calc value (what you see based on skills) is applied against a table based on class type (all plates having the same table).  This was the model used in EQ1 (with the DB/DI model)....not sure if it translates or not as there are some really different factors</P> <P>I dont parse, way too lazy, but I have learned (mostly from the old steelwarrior.org) that objective parse > 1000 subjective evaluations.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by CherobylJoe on <span class=date_text>02-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:51 PM</span>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>CherobylJoe wrote:<P>Also, my understanding of mitigation is that the calc value (what you see based on skills) is applied against a table based on class type (all plates having the same table). This was the model used in EQ1 (with the DB/DI model)....not sure if it translates or not as there are some really different factors</P><hr></blockquote>This may have been true before Big Patch #2 (2/1/05) but it isn't anymore. The AC value you see in your Persona screen is now a calculated estimate based on the AC of your gear (which is all Mitigation except Shields, which are Avoidance [blocks]) and a composite of your "Avoidance," including Defense skill, Agility, Shield, Parry, etc. It's supposed to reflect the overall "Damage Taken over Time" (DToT) that any given character will take. It's only supposed to be used for comparison between characters.A person's total Mitigation score (the sum of the AC of your gear, excepting Shields) may well be applied against different tables based on Archetype, though. That wouldn't surprise me, particularly since I've seen posts on other classes' boards stating that, even though they have similar gear on, they take much more damage when mobs start pounding on them than Fighters do.

[Toxa]

<DIV>lol Xasis... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Could the causality be different?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>_____________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>someone has had way too much Matrix: Revolutions.... lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>.</DIV>

[Erick_Stormfu]

<DIV>I think its funny how people will listen to one guy blab on based on theory....</DIV> <DIV>just because the new spell description doesn't say everything that it does, you assume it doesnt do anything else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for example, we all know if you buff in combat, it generates aggro.. mobs dont like whne you buff.. well guess what, go check those same buff description... nope nothing in the description about generating aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>before talking about how beserk doesnt reduce mitigation, all i ask is try my test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>take off all your rage type buffs, and go fight a double arrow up, green mob.  watch what kind of damage your taking.. (you can do this solo too, so it really doesnt take that long)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>then do the fight, and try to keep one rage icon blinking....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>then do it one more time trying to keep two rage icons blinking.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>warning, if you keep two rage icons blinking, the green mob may kill you, so word of warning, but i think you'll find my point made immediatly...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>dont just believe some shmuck on the boards here saying I'M USING A PARSER, you might be suprised, based on half his answers i'd say he's reading descriptions off the skills, and speculating, and NOT parsing.. because anyone who parses (not just logs combat, but parses based on.. this fight i did this, this fight i did this this fight i did this...)  will be able to tell you, YOU DO TAKE MORE DAMAGE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i'm done here, i'm not going to respond anymore, because were accomplishing nothing.  I encourage everyone to try this themselves, my 5 minute test will confirm what i say, but dont just take somebodies word for it, try it yourself.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Erick</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>All group buff's generate agro, not raise Hate / Threat, get agro on a mob, run out of range of a healer class, then back into buff range and see what happen's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And im saying this one last time Erick cause your starting to beat a dead horse, read my post's again, you will see i have performed your test's, and ive performed my own, on each individual berserk probability skill's, anyway, read my last post before this one on what i tested it all on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV>

[LauraG]

Lol, i like how thid kid trying to convince everyone about his stupid ideas.Go play a guardian or something you bring shame on the zerker class.Going berserk has no negative effect what so ever.Im a lv 50 zerker, been lv 50 for the past 2 months now, killed more mobs than i could remember. GOING INTO BERSERK MODE DOES NOT AFFECT YOUR TANKING ABILLITIES !!!!Also, if you are a berserker that doesnt wanna go into zerk mode, you should quit this game RIGHT NOW !!!!!

[Toxa]

<DIV>i have no proof, but i have done tests and noticed the same exact thing erick has.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 berzerk doesn't change my tanking abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 berzerk makes me take WAY more damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i can solo certain green con double arrow up GROUP mobs... with reckless stance. however, if i let 2 berzerks stack and dont cancel one, i die. no matter what, i can no longer solo that mob. green con double arrow up group mobs can only hit me about 1 in 10 attacks. When 2 berzerks stack, as long as they are stacked, i seem to take nearly full damage, and get hit nearly every attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I seriously doubt this is intended, but i am sure it is a bug.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[LauraG]

Ok, let me try to explain this better, seems some of the ppl dont get it.Lets start with the " Berserk " description.- Cast Berserk on caster. When target is STRUCK , this spell has a 33% chance to: . increase damage per second of the attacker by 5% . increase attack speed of caster by 43%Now lets look at it this way. If you couldnt figure it out, you go into berserk mode WHEN YOU GET HIT. You dont get hit, you NEVER go into berserk mode. Now , why sometimes you get 2 berserk windows? BECAUSE YOU GET HIT SO MANY [Removed for Content] TIMES, YOU HAVE A VERY VERY VEEEERY HIGH CHANCE TO CAST BERSERK FROM EACH HIT, AND SOMETIMES YOU ACTIVATE IT FROM MORE THAN 1 SKILL.What do we learn from here? Thats right, this mob is not the same as the one that only puts you in 1 single berserk, this one is more powerful. hence thats why you getting your [FAAR-NERFED!] kicked and not couse you see 2 berserk icons.And for the love of God, pls stop talking about mobs like " green ^^ ". There are mobs and mobs, there are caster and melee, there are names and simple mobs, there are levels and levels. there are buffs and debuffs.No mob looks the same as other mob just couse you see it " green ^^ ".

[Toxa]

<DIV>let me explain this very clearly in return.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we are noticing the amount of damage done to us GO UP when berzerked x2</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we could be getting hit everytime, but for only 40 dmg a pop, and for some reaosn when berzerked x2, the damage goes up to 100-200 dmg a pop. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>get it now?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i was trying to be nice, but rude begets rude.</DIV>

[LauraG]

I dont notice any increase in damage, i only notice increase in the number of hits.I already explined to you why, harder mob, more hits, you get more than 1 berserk state. You die.And for the record, i watched the character info window, the zerk mode doesnt even stack, you dont get any bonus from having 2 zerk icons.Now, just coming here and saying you saw the damage going up, just so you can prove your theory, i call you a LIAR.If you really want to prove it, go parser the EXACT same mob like 20 times and post a picture where we can all see that the EXACT same attack from the EXACT same mob is double in some cases.Til then, pls stop from sharing your "knowledge" .EDIT: And another thing, just to prove the first poster how "well" he knows about mechanics, MITIGATION IS AC.They changed that EVERYTHING, ac, defense, parry, everything reflects now in AC. So no, there is no conspiracy, this is how the game mechanics are. If you dont see a change in the AC number, your defense is not lowered.<p>Message Edited by LauraG on <span class=date_text>02-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:33 PM</span>

[Toxa]

<DIV>well i notice a difference. i never said defense was lowered. i said it's probably a bug.</DIV>

[Tyf]

<DIV>Ok, im a 26 berserker, just like to throw my thoughts out there. Please dont jump my case if you disagree with me ok, this is just from my personaly exp. I solo alot since i usually have very little time to play but everyonce in awhile i get a grp, ok I i have gotten a upgraded player's page so, just go with this, im in a full suit of orange armor and orange jewlery. crude veluim belt, pristine forged scimitar, black something dagger, etc, etc,.. well i was solo skellys in TS near the tower 2 i think it is not quite sure. There about even too blue sometimes and i pull casters and all the like. While soloing i go berserker all the time and usually i DW so i can kill the mob fast. When berserkering x2 or single, i do notice some more dmg coming in, not that there hitting harder, but there hitting more frequently, and yeah sometimes harder, the caster skellys are a joke, i can just DPS them dead like nothing so theres really not much to talk about there. After reading my skill not saying anythign about losing def, but remember that when EQ2 barely started that focused rage said something about losing def i thought maybe thats with all berserks. So i got myself a giant grp, figuring they hit harder might be a good little exp loot and see if i lose def, well i never saw any of my numbers change, and i was MT the whole time the grp was there. So we worked out way to the big hole where the name spawns and by those lil ruins where a single name spawns, and i tried to DW them while MT but healer was having to heal me like crazy and wanting to take breaks alot. So i put on my shield and i wasnt taking as much dmg but i was still getting hit ALOT!!!! i figured maybe my shiled just sucked. So we killed a named, and it dropped a mithral buckler or something like that, and everyone in grp was like you take it it you seem to need it. SO i put it on, and was using it and noticed the dmg i was taking was again less, but i was still getting hit like crazy, and i had my berserks on at all times, trying to get double berserker for more haste and such. I dunno i just thought id throw that out there, i have no parsers but just my own experince from hunting. Thank You all for your time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>KEEP ON ZERK'N</DIV>

[VonStein]

<DIV>There ARE hidden defensive numbers in this game....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AC mitigation is just one..... another set has to do with Slash / Crush/ Pierce defenses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nowhere on my character can I find numbers about MY slash/crush/pierce defenses (attacks  yes, defense no) and yet there are racial abils, buffs and debuffs which affect these.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its entirly possible that mitigation is being lowered without it being reflected in your Persona window.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, andecdotaly, I see this happening to my Zerker as well, when double zerked, I do "seem" to take more damage.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>Slashing, Peirce and Crushing Defense is included in your AC number, buff yourself with Toughness or Havoc or Anarchy and watch your AC, read the descriptions of the spell's. Templar's have a few buff's that add to Slashing, Crushing and Peircing mitigation, ask them to buff you and watch your AC number rise, i know this cause my wife is a lvl 40 Templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P align=left>Moorgard wrote :</P> <P align=left>Berserkers can wear the same armor and wield the same shields as guardians. <STRONG><U>There are no hidden mitigation bonuses for either class</U></STRONG>, so a berserker and a guardian of the same level, stats, and skills with the same armor/shield combo will have the same base avoidance and mitigation. Guardians have arts that give them increased defensive capabilities, while berserkers have arts that give them increased offense. That's the key difference between the two warrior classes. Keep in mind that if you play a berserker and are not using a shield while tanking, you're missing out on a huge part of the tank's damage avoidance capability. Crusader and warrior classes are intended to use shields while acting as a tank.</P> <P align=left>===========================<BR>Moorgard<BR>EverQuest II Community Guy</P> <P align=left><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=5006" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=5006</A></P> <P align=left>Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[Styk]

That was a good link to show.... Berserk mode does not decrease your defense or mitigation... its whole purpose it to raise your DPS 5%.... read that description of all yourspells/arts... some are different , some berserk omdes give you 36% and some give up to 46% haste.... it depends on which artStrykr Destructicus44 Berserker AB Server

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Erick_Stormfury wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont just believe some shmuck on the boards here saying I'M USING A PARSER, you might be suprised, based on half his answers i'd say he's reading descriptions off the skills, and speculating, and NOT parsing.. because anyone who parses (not just logs combat, but parses based on.. this fight i did this, this fight i did this this fight i did this...)  will be able to tell you, YOU DO TAKE MORE DAMAGE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...(sic)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i'm done here, i'm not going to respond anymore, because were accomplishing nothing.  I encourage everyone to try this themselves, my 5 minute test will confirm what i say, but dont just take somebodies word for it, try it yourself.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Erick</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1) Calling people names isnt going to help you.  </P> <P>2) I experimented all weekend with double berserk states (both using all sorts of mixes of skills to trigger berserk).  In no case did I see the damage cascade you mentioned.  So objectively I cant repeat what you observed; maybe becuase I am using level 40 tools, maybe because it isnt there, beats the heck out of me.</P> <P>Before you started calling people names I might have been inclined to believe you had something.  Now I just think you are acting like a hot head.  </P>

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toxaur wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i can solo certain green con double arrow up GROUP mobs... with reckless stance. however, if i let 2 berzerks stack and dont cancel one, i die. no matter what, i can no longer solo that mob. green con double arrow up group mobs can only hit me about 1 in 10 attacks. When 2 berzerks stack, as long as they are stacked, i seem to take nearly full damage, and get hit nearly every attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I seriously doubt this is intended, but i am sure it is a bug.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Tox, can you PM the data (mob etc)...I want to play with this myself.  I dont disbelieve that in certain circumstances a double berserk might have unintended comsequences...just want to prove it objectively.<BR>

[Styk]

Also did some testing with double berserk status and no i didnt take a mitigation or defense hit also.... Erick pls read our spell/arts descriptions not once does any berserk proc say anything about a lose in defense for the 5% dps gain

[Scarax]

I posted the following in another thread. Ericks assertion that Rage effects defense is incorrect. Following is my post:Erick,You were so adamant about your belief that berserk does do something to defense that I took your challenge. Here we go!I'm currently a level 34 Berserker and I used Green ^^ Skeletal Veterans in Thunderring Steppes to test this on.Reckless Stance - Combat Abilities that won't cause BerserkAverage DPS: 33.8 Average Damage Taken: 1043Reckless Stance with Focus Rage - All Combat Abilities not Double RagingAverage DPS: 42.2 Average Damage Taken: 794Reckless Stance with Focus Rage - All Combat Abilities Double Raging as much as possibleAverage DPS: 40.8 Average Damage Taken: 842This whole excercise was a great experience actually as it reinforced in my own mind that we DO kill things faster when we are berserk than we do when we're not berserk. The average fight took about a minute longer when I wasn't berserking and that accounts for the lower DPS as well as the additional damage taken. Double raging was really a wash as you can see. It didn't give me any benefits or detriments. It just gave me another little blinky icon to look at. There is one thing I noticed which was strange though and this might explain what you're seeing.When I was double raging I would do the whole Xmas tree thing, just blink like crazy, stick weapon in the air and all that. It seemed to really come in a spurt. Almost like I went berserk about 8 times in a row. I noticed that when this happened that I wasn't attacking at my normal rate. It's like I was missing attacks taking time to go berserk. Now what I'm thinking is that if that happens and you go through a 5-10 second spurt of just zerk, zerk, zerk, zerk and you're not swinging then that can add up to a rough loss of around 200-1000HP's of damage that I do to the mob. That loss of damage I inflict translates to 5-10 more seconds of the mob getting chances to power hit me again for 200's.For my fights it really was sort of a wash, but I can see where if you got stuck in a "zerk stutter" where it would look bad because the mobs health wouldn't be going down as fast and the fight would take longer. Just a guess. Anyone else tried this?Anyone here who wants to do a simple test to prove all of this can do so by performing the following excercise:Fight 1 - Soldiers Stance/Reckless Stance only with non-berserk abilities and kill the monster. Then tell us how long the fight lasted and how much damage you took.Fight 2 - Soldiers Stance/Reckless Stance with Focus Rage with berserk abilities and kill the monster. Then tell us how long the fight lasted and how much damage you took.For any of you who are new to the class I swear to god it is this simple: You kill faster when you rage and therefore take less damage because the fight is shorter. It's just that simple.Anyone who tells you otherwise is mistaken.

[Erick_Stormfu]

<DIV>So what your saying, you you should strive to only be in one rage?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>because two rages gives you less dps????  this seems strange.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Erick</DIV>

[Notumwa]

<DIV><FONT size=3>OK, I think some clarification is in order here. Anyone stating their experiences needs to list what level they are and what arts they are using. Not sure if I am seeing that sub Level 30 zerkers are claiming damage taken is going up, yet high level zerkers say it doesn't. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>There's something screwy here. Maybe one of the arts we are using sub 30 IS bugged and we ARE taking more damage. it certainly seems that way to me. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Here's another thought, if a string of zerk's interrupts your attack speed, maybe it interrupts your blocking, riposting, or dodging as well.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Just brianstorming and throwing things out on the table.</FONT></DIV>

[Huna]

I'm lvl 29, and I don't see an increase in damage taken when berserk.

[Erick_Stormfu]

<DIV>When I did all my tests, I was Level 32.  was clearly taking much more damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the primary skills used when taking much more damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>focus rage</DIV> <DIV>balok's challenge</DIV> <DIV>my damage DOT... (trying to remember the name... furious rush maybe?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Erick</DIV><p>Message Edited by Erick_Stormfury on <span class=date_text>03-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:44 AM</span>

[Toxa]

<DIV>ok</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>here is the info.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>level 37-38</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>fighting green, group con, double arrow up wasps in EL.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if i DO NOT allow more than 1 berzerk at once, then i can solo the wasps, ending with about 75-100% health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if i DO allow berzerks to stack, then about 90% of the time i have to sprint away with 20% or lower health before the wasp is at 50% health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so i definitely notice something wrong when berzerks stack, and i definitely think there is some bug that is happening when they stack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I cannot solo these wasps when i let berzerks stack. however, i can easily solo them if i only allow 1 berzerk at a time.  And the damage occurs AFTER i let the berzerks stack, NOT before. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i can't test this anymore than i already have, as i have since levelled. But i did test it thoroughly.</DIV>

[FamilyManFir]

Okay, I admit that I'm a Berzerker newb, and I have a question: how do you deliberately limit yourself to 1 rage?

[Toxa]

<DIV>right click the berzerk icon that pops up on the window that has the buffs you have on. then click cancel.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>basically just using focus rage helps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NOTE: i also noticed, when soloing the group con wasps, that if you use reckless stance they can rarely even hit you. Without reckless stance, they hit much more often.</DIV>

[doraemon]

<DIV>Guys, listen! Berserker WILL NOT STACK!!...you can only have 1 berzerker effect at a time...showing 2 buff on your windows doesn't mean it stack....the high/better one will cancel the low one....</DIV>

[Adewale]

Hey people, it's skills, not skill's. Tests, not test's. Jesus Christ, learn how to properly pluralize words.

[Toxa]

<DIV> <DIV>yes they do stack. but only a maximum of 2. they used to stack as many as you could. stacking 3-4 would result in such incredible damage output that they nerfed it down to 2 and nerfed our berzerk skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and they do not cancel each other... how then, would you end up with 2 on at once without one making the other fade?</DIV></DIV>

[Lord Nemes]

<DIV>I'm a level 43 Zerker, I don't use focus rage, at all.  I'm pretty sure without useing focus rage, you can't get 2 zerk icons.  I DO manage, however, to stay zerk for about 50-80% of the fight, depending.  I usually dump my power and chain cast my skills, especially when we have a chanter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't comment on the 2 Zerk icons stacking, howerver, if you use the skill Rage, with the different icon, the hastes DO stack, and you get the everliving crap kicked out of you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No gonna go into any tests or anything.  I haven't done any, im just stating what i've noticed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't usually even use rage, but when i solo i use it when i go oop, and if another zerk of the "other zerk line" procs, i get pummeled.</DIV>

[Toxa]

<DIV>i never noticed rage giving the bad voodoo like stacked berzerk. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but i do the same thing. just dont use focus rage and you're ok.</DIV>

[Scarax]

For gods sake... I want the people who are posting absolutely false information to listen and listen good. You can post till your blue in the face about how you think this and think that, but it's getting frickin' rediculous. Especially when you've been presented with facts that clearly show some of the assertions you are making are false. There are some new berserkers who read these boards and god forbid they read some of the junk info you guys post and actually believe it. Here are the facts:1. Having two zerks up DOES NOT stack!You only get the haste benefit from one. You can check the amount of haste you're getting in the game. Dig around the boards for details on how to do this.2. Having a zerk or two zerks up does not effect defense!I am so sick and tired of hearing about this. Going zerk doesn't mess with your defense. I've posted about this extensively. Erick_Stormfury and Toxaur are just plain wrong. Anyone can test this. ANYONE. Do the following and prove it to yourself.Fight 1: Reckless Stance/Soldiers Stance and get in a fight with a mob. Make a note of how long the fight took and how much damage you took.Fight 2: Reckless Stance/Soldiers Stance and berserk till content and get in a fight with the same mob. Make a note of how long the fight took and how much damage you took.I have done this test at least 50 times on all sorts of mobs from linked multi-mob encounters to linked ^ mobs to ^^ mobs. The results are ALWAYS the same. If you zerk the fight is over faster which translates to you taking less damage. I mean this isn't rocket science!

[Toxa]

<DIV>i have tested it extensively. when there are 2 berzerk icons up you start to take way more damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so kindly shut your hole and stop calling us liars.</DIV>

[Scarax]

I posted statistics to back up my assertions where are yours?Take my test Toxaur. Take it. It's a simple test that will prove you wrong and you know it.

[Thuyk]

<DIV>At level 44, I've been soloing Green ^^ and groups of 4 green mobs almost exclusively.  I still use Focus Rage, and I have two Berserk icons up very, very often.  I haven't noticed being hit any harder when that is the case.  In fact, the mobs barely even touch me - most of the "damage" I take, I do to myself, using Blood Rage.  Last night, several times, I got adds, so was soloing a total of about eight mobs at once.  With two berserk icons up, I still didn't notice any increased damage.  In fact, I like having two up (since one fades before the other).  Against that many mobs, the almost constant berserk is well worth it, since I run out of power and have to auto-attack to finish the last couple.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by Thuyker on <span class=date_text>03-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:47 PM</span>

[Scarax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>Lord Nemesis wrote:</P> <P>...I can't comment on the 2 Zerk icons stacking, howerver, if you use the skill Rage, with the different icon, the hastes DO stack, and you get the everliving crap kicked out of you.</P> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This is false. The Rage skill overrides the normal Rage proc. They do not stack. One quick look at the Character HUD will show you this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At level 34 with Adept I Focus Rage and Apprentice I Rage here are the haste effects:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Focus Rage Zerk gives haste of 41%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rage Skill gives haste of 42%</DIV>

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Scaraxes wrote:<BR>I posted statistics to back up my assertions where are yours?<BR><BR>Take my test Toxaur. Take it. It's a simple test that will prove you wrong and you know it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>This isnt the Guardian board :smileyvery-happy:...let get some civility back in this thread guys; well thought out arguments win here not shoot from the hip flames.</P> <P>Scar: I agree with you as I havent been able to replicate this myself either .  I think to be fair though folks like Tox have been pretty careful to say "in their experience" and caveats when appropriate.   I just dont see a double bers damage casacade like Erick mentioned earlier (and man have I played with alot over the alst 1.5 week).  Also before the HUD display was disabled I was only seeing berserk haste once even though 2 icons were up (cant validate anymore with HUD command gone).</P> <P>Tox: I believe what you have been seeing, as you have stated before above, is a bug.  Just a real pita to replicate.  I'm thinkin that there is a combo of berserk skills in the low-mid 30s that dont play well together from a code perspective.  Perhaps this is a legacy piece of logic from a time being berserk actually influenced your defense (Beta?); it is possible that there is a logic hole of some kind causing this. </P> <P> </P>

[Scarax]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CherobylJoe wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Scaraxes wrote:<BR>I posted statistics to back up my assertions where are yours?<BR><BR>Take my test Toxaur. Take it. It's a simple test that will prove you wrong and you know it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>This isnt the Guardian board :smileyvery-happy:...let get some civility back in this thread guys; well thought out arguments win here not shoot from the hip flames.</P> <P>Scar: I agree with you as I havent been able to replicate this myself either .  I think to be fair though folks like Tox have been pretty careful to say "in their experience" and caveats when appropriate.   I just dont see a double bers damage casacade like Erick mentioned earlier (and man have I played with alot over the alst 1.5 week).  Also before the HUD display was disabled I was only seeing berserk haste once even though 2 icons were up (cant validate anymore with HUD command gone).</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>The HUD command is still in the game. Not sure what you mean... </FONT></P> <P><!--StartFragment --><FONT color=#ffff00> /show_window MainHUD.Character </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>still works and will show you everything you need to know.</FONT></P> <P>Tox: I believe what you have been seeing, as you have stated before above, is a bug.  Just a real pita to replicate.  I'm thinkin that there is a combo of berserk skills in the low-mid 30s that dont play well together from a code perspective.  Perhaps this is a legacy piece of logic from a time being berserk actually influenced your defense (Beta?); it is possible that there is a logic hole of some kind causing this. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>The only way we're ever going to get to the bottom of this is we need to get more information from them. We need level, mob, weapon, and most importantly skills used. If they have done all the testing they say they have then the only two answers I can think of are a bugged skill or bugged equipment. An example of a  bugged skill would be if Rage Adept III actually did lower your defense or something like that. And an example of bugged equipment would be a piece of armor that says it gives 300 AC, but in reality gives 0 or something like that. These are all hypotheticals of course. Here are some lists of things I'd like to see them do:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>A: Take my test. Just do a simple test with Reckless Stance or Soldiers Stance only against a mob then do another with Focus Rage. The fight should last shorter. If no ill effects are observed there then move to adding another skill to the second part of the test. For instance, use Raging Strike now with Stance and Focus Rage. If no ill effects are observed there. Then add Enrage. So on and so forth.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>B. I'd also like to see tests done against certain damage types. Hypothetically what if going super zerk set your crushing resistance to 0? (I know it isn't because the skeletons I tested against use crush) Or Piercing or Slashing? </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>The real point of this is that if you cannot narrow it down and duplicate it effectively then for all intents and purposes it's just heresay. I'm more than willing to help out with any testing, but so far I've seen 0 statistics or test data from either of them. If you really believe what you guys are saying then get us some data!!!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Honestly, the real annoying thing for me is that many people come on here and say this is this or that is that, and like you said, don't through in the caveat "in my experience" and don't even have statistics and data to back up their claims. It reminds me of that guy who used to post that shields didn't work for a berserker. Anyone else remember that guy? I know that if I was a level 20 zerker just starting out I would be confused as hell and that's the kind of stuff I'd like to see us prevent here. Imagine some 20 Zerk afraid to use Focus Rage because he thinks he'll take more damage. He might as well have played a Guardian at that point. I'm trying to look out for the person who doesn't know any better and also for the truth. It's stuff like this that honestly I would think would make the Devs not listen to anything we have to say. Anyhow, that's my driver here.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Toxa]

<DIV>whether they styack or dont, this happens when there are 2 berzerk icons flashing.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i have not tried to replicate this with any other mob, any other zone, any other equipment, etc. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i have only noticed the bug happen in that situation, because it was the only time i was soloing group con mobs for any substantial length of time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the fact remains that there is a bug caused by sometyhing in that situation, and it only occured when i allowed 2 berzerk icons to flash at once. Every fight that happened in, i would lose the fight horribly. Every fight i did not allow 2 berzerk icons at once, i won with 75-100% health left.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have only noticed this with the ^^ wasps in EL.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>again and again i repeat: just because it hasn't happened to you does NOT mean the bug does not exist.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>That's like saying "i've never seen a shark attack, so it doesn't exist"</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>.</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Toxaur on <span class=date_text>03-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:49 PM</span>

[Ziz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Toxaur wrote:<BR> <DIV>whether they styack or dont, this happens when there are 2 berzerk icons flashing.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i have not tried to replicate this with any other mob, any other zone, any other equipment, etc. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i have only noticed the bug happen in that situation, because it was the only time i was soloing group con mobs for any substantial length of time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the fact remains that there is a bug caused by sometyhing in that situation, and it only occured when i allowed 2 berzerk icons to flash at once. Every fight that happened in, i would lose the fight horribly. Every fight i did not allow 2 berzerk icons at once, i won with 75-100% health left.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have only noticed this with the ^^ wasps in EL.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>again and again i repeat: just becasue it hasn't happened to you does NOT mean the bug does not exist.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>48 levels, lots of soloing, never ever taken more damage because i had 2 zerks flashing. but i guess its kinda like aliens right? just because you havent seen them doesnt mean they dont exist. </FONT></P> <P></FONT> </P> <P>so maybe there werent any factors in there, like a lucky roll on the mobs part exactly the time you saw 2 up?? i mean just because you took extra damage in that exact instance does NOT mean there is a bug.  sounds like +1 for the mobs, -1 for you. </FONT></P>

[Toxa]

<DIV>as i said... it happened everytime i let 2 berzerks stack when soloing those certain wasps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>everytime</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AFTER i let them stack, not before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>how many times must i repeat myself?</DIV>

[doraemon]

<DIV>tox so u agree'd that 2 zerk icon will not stack finally eh??? this is my wild guess what happened to u....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the problem is why will you get 2 zerk icon?? well first of all, focus active because you getting hits, then of cuz your health is going down....then you are afraid'd to use skill to get 2 zerk icon....and the result?? you are causing your hp because you are not using zerk skill to do dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>don't flame me...just trying to help u out.....im lvl 44 now....never notice the "bug" you are talking about..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Namsin]

can't we all just get along?

[Toxa]

<DIV>since when did i say they did not stack?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>is english your 2nd language?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>READ the post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i said that when i ALLOW 2 berzerk icons to stack(meaning that they can and will) then i can't solo group mobs... when i DO NOT allow them to stack(by cancelling one icon) then I can very easily solo group mobs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this test being done only on the EL wasps between level 36-38.</DIV>

[Wandat]

<DIV>There is one variable I have not seen mentioned yet in this thread.  The types of weapons you are using.  Could the reason why some people are taking significantly more damage than others have something to do with whether you are using DW, 1H/Shield, or 2H?  I'm not a Beserker myself so I can't test it.</DIV>

[Wiou]

yes, attacking faster = more ripostes..

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wiou wrote:<BR>yes, attacking faster = more ripostes..<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>But is the additional damage taken from ripostes material (e.g. of a significant amount) compared to the additional DPS received from the haste/bers state?  Your statement while true lacks the context by which to make a change in  play behaviour.</P> <P>I dont know this answer (it would require a great deal of parsing) but it seems that if you gained say 5 pct more dps from taking 1pct more ripostes then it would be a worthwhile trade off (pct working of off absolute damage figures).  If it was the inverse then perhaps avoiding haste/bers state would be something to desire in some circumstances.</P> <P> </P>

[LauraG]

You have to stop now with this conspiracy. Let it go, is dead.Stop trying to convince us about this stupid and absurd idea.Do you really want us to belive this bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? Lets see :You fighting. Doing your specials, paying attencion at the combat. All of a sudden you notice you got the seccont berzerk icon. So, you start moving the mouse, placing over one of the berserk window, right click, select cancel. I dont know about you, but it takes me like AT LEAST 4-5 secs to do that. And PLS dont tell us you do it in 2.Soooo, by your own theory, not allowing 2 berserk mode to stack you are just fine. What you are trying to tell us is that in those 5 secs , the mob kills you if you dont cancel the second zerk mode.PLEEEAAASE!!!

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>Dont forget LauraG, you forgot to add if a buff wears off and the the buff line's shift on your buff window making you accidently cancel the wrong one :smileysad:, been there, done that :smileyindifferent:, waste of time, too much head ache ( trying to remove Hold the Line in the heat of a battle :smileywink:, ), just let it go like LauraG said, there is no difference, put this puppy to bed and move on, there is enough information in this one thread on why it *seems* you take more damage, when you really arent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 42th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Toxa]

<DIV>nobody said you die IN that 5 sec LauraG.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>learn english better.</DIV>

[CherobylJ]

<DIV>omgz can you just feel the LOVE </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Me thinks some folks have 2 berserk icons flashing in this thread  :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Scarax]

Hahaha. Are other classes threads like this? I've officially closed down my research on the whole "take more damage when two icons are flashing thing" as I cannot duplicate it. I believe it was just a case of bad luck, or a bug on the users part. It is in no way part of the class as a whole. If it were every single berzerker would be on here screaming murder. It was a fluke. Let's move on.

[Cozumel]

If you notice in the description of Focus Rage:+33% Attack speed to CASTER (you)+5% Attack speed to attacker (THE MOB)... If you proc off Focus Rage, you just gave the mob a 5% boost in attack speed ... Not worth it when I can pop fury/raging strike and get berzerked... -- Coz

[Toxa]

<DIV>that's a typo or something. it's 5% DPS bonus for you.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>Its acually a increase to Damage Per Second by 5%, not Attack Speed, so the <STRONG><U>attacker</U></STRONG> is getting a 5% damage increase to his damage output, but if you hadnt noticed, all our Berserk probability combat arts state they do the same thing, besides your reading it wrong, you are the <STRONG><U>target</U></STRONG> for Berserk, it's not increasing the mob's DPS, its increasing your DPS, Berserk doesnt land on the mob and increase his DPS. If that was the case, take Raging Strike for example :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Raging Strike Adept I :</U></STRONG></DIV> <UL> <LI>Increase threat priority of target by 348 postions</LI> <LI>Casts berserk on caster. On successful attack, this spell has a 10% chance to :</LI> <UL> <LI>Increase damage per second of target <STRONG><U>( meaning you )</U></STRONG> by 5%</LI> <LI>Increase Attack Speed of target <STRONG><U>( meaning you )</U></STRONG> by 37% </LI></UL></UL> <P>They have alot of ways to word things differently but all mean the same thing, also look at how they say it raises the Hate generated by this combat art, now look at Mad Cry :</P> <P><STRONG><U>Mad Cry Adept I :</U></STRONG></P> <UL> <LI>Interrupts target</LI> <LI>Increase Threat by 379 - 463</LI></UL> <P>Increase Threat and Increase Threat Priority both mean the same thing, just worded differently. Just remember, you are the attacker and the target for Berserk, not the mob, dont get confused.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 42th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:43 AM</span>

[Lord Nemes]

<DIV>Don't wanna get way off topic here, but why would anyone past say, level 37, even think about using focus rage as a means to go zerk?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At about 37, we have quite a few skills that proc zerk, and keep it proced for a LARGE amount of the fight.  Raging Strike is a sure thing, for at least 2-3 zerks, enrage does the same thing, coupled with tides of war, and infuriation, cast on ANYONE in the group, and with all the other small chance skills your surely using, you've got about a 30%-40% chance to zerk, everytime you hit the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Focus Rage WASTES TIME, squatting and glowing red, while not attacking.  Sure the zerk effect is useful for  5-6 seconds, but if focus rage goes off about 5 times in a row, your jsut sitting there squatting getting minimal pecks at the mob here and there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure, as soon as focus procs you can launch a skill and it stops the squat, but when your oop, its even MORE useless to use focus rage... thats what rage is for, doesn't take any power (even tho it squats, its not up the whole fight making you squat).  By then you can launch enrage or raging strike, making you proc zerk a few more times while oop.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Down with Focus rage, that's not my idea of increased dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry I got a little more off topic then I was going for, but I just started writing aimlessly about the skill i find most useless to me.  Someone said something about Focus Rage and not useing it, might as well be a guardian or something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lemme tell ya, Guardians make take a beating a hellava lot better, but if you dump focus rage, you "can" consistantly match DPS with quite a few of the other classes used and known ONLY for DPS.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>I dont fight in first person view for many reasons, but when i berserk and some times im glowing red quite alot, and i still countine to see number fly out the top of the mobs head indicating i am still giving it a beating, reguardless if im chain squatting glowing red the whole time, sometimes all im doing is glowing red, looks like im constapated, and the number's are just flowing out and none of my parsing results have changed. The more chances you have at going berserk, the more chances you have consistantly staying berserk = faster dead mobs, we are after all offensive tanks, and a good defense is a good offense. Raging Strike is only a 10% chance to proc berserk and Focus Rage is a 33% chance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This was addressed quite awhile ago, i remember in the early days when the game first went live there was a big debate about it cause we were berserking so much because of Bloodlust, they changed it to stop putting our DPS on hold while we glowed red, they have since then fixed it, going berserk doesnt put your damage output on hold, there is certain other combat arts that do put your damage output on hold, Anarchy, Stunning Cry, Weapon Shield, Darkmoore's Protective Advance, Tides of War, Screaming Fury are the worse seeing they have fairly long cast timers, using these during battle will dramatically lower your dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 42th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>