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02-23-2005, 06:47 PM
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#1 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 215
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I know going berserk doesn't affect your defense in any way. Originally it did, but they changed it a long time ago. I'm just posting this because I have seen quite a few people saying not to go berserk because it lowers your defense, I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. So, knowing that it doesn't affect defense should get more people using it and also increase their ability for dps. If anyone has a link to a dev post that says it does or does not affect defense, please post it.
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Drayden 70 Berserker/ 44+Tailor The Brethren Kithicor Server |
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02-23-2005, 06:56 PM
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#2 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 395
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I belive you are correct I have never, subjectively speaking, seen my defense drop while berserk. Imagine Aon can comment on this from a parse perspective.
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---------------------- Flair Fifteenpiece - 54 Berserker of Guk, - Co-GL Infernal Requiem formerly Flair Shieldrender 70 Overlord of Fennin Ro "And as the Overlord raised his fist to the sky, the crowds cheered below. The soldiers began their familiar chant as the citizens joined in: "Strength in unity; unity in Lucan!" |
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02-23-2005, 09:04 PM
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#3 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 194
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Going berserk adds 5% DPS and 35% increased attack speed. Nowhere does it ever lower defense.
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02-23-2005, 09:37 PM
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#4 |
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General
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 13
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I know it's the discription given in game but I do find it weird, as if increased haste wouldn't increase dps. Not sure how these things can be affected seperately...
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02-23-2005, 10:02 PM
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#5 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 17
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I think the confusion comes from a few things: Blood Rage takes health when it procs, so when you use this your health drops faster. also The official description of Focus Rage from http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/classes/index.vm?classId=4 ClassSpell Name SkillLevelPower Cost ConcentrationDescriptionBerserkerFocus Rageberserk2001Focuses damage taken into a rage that will sometimes cause a berserk state. When berserk, a berserker loses some defense, but gains increased damage and attack rate. In addition, the berserker may use certain combat arts that require the berserk state. The description could be wrong, that wouldnt suprise me
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02-23-2005, 10:40 PM
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#6 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 194
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That description is NOT the same description in game. The description in game does not mention losing defense.
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02-23-2005, 10:52 PM
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#7 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 64
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You dont lose defense... i became confused as alot of people were saying that you did... but it appears that you dont... however i think that because you are attakcing more, it means more riptostes? read that somewhere too... I'm certain that it doesnt lower your DEF
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02-24-2005, 12:12 AM
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#8 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 24
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If ripostes were a substantial concern about the added haste, do MTs seriously ask NOT to be hasted by enchanters? It just seems weird to worry about 35% haste when we ask to be buff-hasted all the time. Also, does berserk rage stack with chanter haste? How do haste caps affect this combination? I know that going unhasted for a warrior was death for aggro in EQL, but i seriously don't know in this game. Message Edited by Dulbecco on 02-23-2005 11:16 AM |
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02-24-2005, 01:16 AM
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#9 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 41
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ClassSpell Name SkillLevelPower Cost ConcentrationDescriptionBerserkerFocus Rageberserk2001Focuses damage taken into a rage that will sometimes cause a berserk state. When berserk, a berserker loses some defense, but gains increased damage and attack rate. In addition, the berserker may use certain combat arts that require the berserk state.well .. even if you do lose a little defense .. it apparently isnt vey noticeable.
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02-24-2005, 06:00 AM
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#10 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,673
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You do not recieve any negative effect's any more from Berserk, they fixed it quite awhile ago. Riposte's in EQ2 arent as a big concern like they were in EQ1 cause chance to Riposte in EQ1 was much greater on the mob's there then it is here. Beside's using a parser to check that Berserk does not effect our defense, open your window's like Skill's and Persona window's, if number's dont decrease during Berserk, nothing is being reduced. The only way mitigation can be reduced is if Defense get's lowered or AC get's lowered. I have parsed over hundred's of thousand's damage now coming into the million's ( yes i have no life :smileywink:, ), and havent noticed Berserk to lower my mitigation / defense ever. Dont forget that mob's now have the chance to hit you as much as you hit them now and also have a higher chance at hitting you for max damage, that was implemented just after the first big patch i believe. Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker 16th Outfitter Blood and Ice Everfrost Server Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired ) 70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist Five Rings on Luclin Server Message Edited by -Aonein- on 02-24-2005 11:00 AM
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02-24-2005, 06:01 AM
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#11 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 165
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why is it that i notice, when i have 2 stacked berzerk icons, that my tanking ability suddenly plummets? this is a bug, right? I've noticed this on many occasions. I tank great normally, but when that 2nd berzerk stacks, i really seem to take a beating.
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02-24-2005, 06:18 AM
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#12 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 132
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THIS IS FALSE!!! it doesn't effect your defense score, but IT DOES EFFECT YOUR MITIGATION. with a group very hard or double arrow green mob, I can solo it without a problem. the key.... limit my beserk ability. when i have no beserks up what so ever, I will regenerate more hit points then the mob can inflict on me... he'll hit me for around 40 points every 3 or 4 rounds. when i get a single beserk, he'll hit me for about 80 points of damage ever 3 or 4 rounds.... when i get the second beserk up, he hits me for 200+ points every 3 or 4 rounds........ IT DOES EFFECT YOUR MITIGATION! -Erick |
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02-24-2005, 06:20 AM
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#13 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 132
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Your correct, the previous poster is smoking crack. His parsing is all messed up or something, i've tested this time after time after time. He's right, in that you don't see your AC in your AC window drop, however, YOU CERTAINLY SEE THE EFFECTS.
-Erick |
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02-24-2005, 07:26 AM
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#14 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,673
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Erick your forgetting one thing, none of our Berserk's reduce our mitigation what so ever unless there is a few that are bugged, none of them state even that like they use too. Agility has been nerfed and Mob's have been increased to hit more often and have a higher chance to hit for full damage. Because Agility has been nerfed and Mob's attack rating have been increased plus the chance to hit for full damage more often, of course it's going to look like it's Berserk's fault, it's the first thing people are going to blame before thinking about what else has been changed. I have had 2 Berserk icon's flashing periodically, constantly, Dual weilding on mob's 5 level's higher then me, and my mitigation hasnt changed. Ive had 2 Berserk icon's flashing on group's of Mob's with 5-6 mob's per group and my mitigation hasnt changed, if it had of changed during group encounter's 5+ lvl's higher then me, not only would of my parser picked it up, but my own eye's would of seen a huge difference with 5-6 mob's hitting you. You wouldnt miss it, and if i had seen it, i would of said yes i seen it. Have you also stopped to think what the second icon is that's flashing for you is a bugged skill reducing your mitigation? Have you figured out what the second icon flashing is form, in other word's have you tested every single Berserk proc by itself to see which one may or may not be bugged? Another thing is, there is no point in having 2 Berserk icon's flashing, unless you are under level 37, once you get Tide's of War, just concentrate on one Berserk icon flashing cause Haste percentage is lvl capped, so figure out which Berserk icon is reducing mitigation for you and stop using it, cause my mitigation dont change, even with 2 Berserk icon's flashing even though the second is just a waste. Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker
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02-24-2005, 07:51 AM
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#15 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 259
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Fortunately going Berserk doesnt lower our defense at all. Else we would be severely gimped. Been seing posts regarding this misconception everywhere. Also, from my own experience, Soldier's Stance is NOT better than Reckless Stance. Been testing this for 2 days now and i mitigate better with Reckless than with Soldier's (even without Weapon Shield up).
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02-24-2005, 08:10 AM
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#16 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,673
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One more thing, Mitigation is based of number's, there is no hidden number's for mitigation, for mitigation to be affected, number's that you can see have to be changed, if number's dont change, mitigation doesnt change, unless of course the mob's get stronger, and your mitigation stay's the same. For example : Toughness App 3 : Definition : Toughness increases your pysical mitigation for a short time.
Meaning, that these number's are included in the AC total, buff your self with Toughness and watch your AC value change, but it say's it raise's mitigation, not AC, see where im going with this? When you put on a Shield, your AC change's, but the AC value from a Shield doesnt change Mitigation, it's value get's added to AC value and we get the chance to Block = Avoidance. Parry skill get's added to the AC value, but it's value get's added to the Avoidance side of the number since Parry doesnt help you mitigate anything, help's you too avoid attack's. Reckless Stance add's to Defense, Defense get's added to your AC value, but Defense is on the Mitigation side of the number. AC equal's two value's, Mitigation value and Avoidance value, for ethier of them to change, as in get greater or less, the AC number has to change in the region of greater or less or nothing change's at all, but just because AC value change's doesnt alway's mean your mitigation has been affected, it could be your Avoidance value part of the AC number that has been effected, or it could be the Mitigation part of the value that's only effected, or it could be a combination of both from a certain spell from a mob ie; Lower's Mitigation and Avoidance of target, Lower's Mitigation or Lower's Avoidance. I know what people are seeing when they have 2 Berserk Icon's flashing and it's sudden burst's of HP dropping rapidly as if your mitigation and avoidance has dropped, but this can still happen and does happen with no Berserk Icon's flashing, or 1 Berserk Icon, flashing, and can happen just as much. The sudden burst decrease in HP can also be because the mob has acually casted a negative effect spell on you reducing your mitigation / avoidance AC, it could also be a negative effect spell like a DS ( Damage Shield ) put on you so when you hit the mob it hurt's you, but the problem is, it doesnt come up and say, Mob_01 Shield of Flame hit's you for 127, all it say's is, Mob_01 hit's you for 127, reason im thinking this is because ive noticed alot of people taking damage lately, but it's not Barrage damage when i ask, it's just pure hit's, nothing else, so realistically, you dont know if it's a DS doing the damage, a burst of Riposte's for a few second's or if the mob has cast negative effect spell's on you to lower your Mitigation / Avoidance value. Another to make sure to check is Special's by mob's, they drop anyone like a rock, no matter what there mitigation or avoidance is. Got to stop looking at your HP and start running test's with window's open and parser's, also take note of what negative spell effect's get cast on you and try your hardest to examine them while there on you, they will give you a descritpion of what they do. Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker
Message Edited by -Aonein- on 02-24-2005 01:23 PM
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02-24-2005, 06:51 PM
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#17 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: BDTBL
Posts: 197
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Firstly, it seems quite a complicated equation to actually figure out what is going on. To define it - if the mechanics you describe are true - would be almost impossible. There are so many bugs in this game, that without seeing how damage/mitigation is actually calculated taking all arts/skills into account, it's hard to figure out if something is bugged or not. Until all this info is provided, it's pretty much a moot point. Keep on discussing though, makes for interesting reading :smileywink:
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____________________________________________ 'You can please some of the people all of the time, and you can please all of the people some of the time, but, you can't please all of the people all of the time.' |
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02-24-2005, 07:26 PM
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#18 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 12
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Well [FAAR-NERFED!], wish I'd known they changed it. I used to use berserk all the time, mainly with bloodlust...then they changed that some, and it wasn't worth using anymore, because I -did- take more damage. At the time it was easy to notice, so I stopped using it all together. Thanks to this thread, I'll have to start using focus rage again. (Since Bloodlust is kind of outdated now.) Good times! ^__^
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02-24-2005, 08:21 PM
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#19 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 132
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Have tested this extensively.... all rages are broken if what your saying is true.... i think your just wrong. no where has sony ever said beserk rage doesnt effect how much damage you take. single rage, i tank as if i'm basically one level lower then i really am, two rages actice i tank as if i'm two levels lower.... tested over and over and over. go check you parsing... its actually very simple to see... i encourage everyone to experiment, you can do this without parsing its so odvious. go find a group double arrow up green mob. buff up normal buffs (for level 32), reckless, weapon shield, havoc, etc... DO NOT buff anything that will put you into rage. now, as you start to fight, only use skills that WONT put you into rage... you'll see you will be healing more damage then your taking. now, fire off a skill that will send you into a rage... balok's/enrage is great for this, because it almost ensures you'll go into rage.... you'll find your taking about twice the damage you were before, still not bad, because you barely were taking any damage, but enough so that your starting to fall in health.... now rinse and repeat, only this time, after you get your first rage up, add focus rage, or use some of your other skills that put you into rage... when you get your second rage icon blinking, BLAM now your getting the CRAP kicked out of you. you will be taking 4-5 times as much damage as you were unraged. this isn't just a few times, YOU CAN DO THIS EVERY SINGLE TIME, try it before you come here proclaiming "WE DONT TAKE MORE DAMAGE WHEN RAGED BECAUSE THE LITTLE DESCRIPTION BOX DOES SAY THAT I DO". TEST IT, then come back and tell me what you say. -Erick
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02-24-2005, 08:36 PM
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#20 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,673
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And that's exactlly how SoE probally want it, keeping it from being defined keep's us on our toe's, makes it more exciting, once EQ1 mitigation was defined it was all down hill from there, tank's knew what they needed, new encounter's were basically the same over and over again, not much changed, mob's got stronger and more HP, tank's got more HP / AC, it was all trivial. There was basically no challenge, till they released GoD and OoW and made raid's locked to 54 people, it was the only way to break the cycle, plus making encounter's some of the most challenging ever seen in the game for a 54 man / woman raid. Point is, trivialising thing's make's them boring and turn's it into a grind. It's acually not a moot point, Moorgard has posted on many forum's about how AC is calculated with mitigation / avoidance and how a shield / spell's / combat art's also work, but you are right about so many skill's being bugged, but we have had alot of our skill's fixed and tweaked, there getting there. Here is some more reading material i have gathered along my track's, there is a few key point's in these that reguard all Tank class's, but some of the point's that are noted in the post's and toward's said class, see what you come up with. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=2793#M2793 http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=2835#M2835 http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=26408#M26408 http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=8186#M8186 Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker
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02-24-2005, 09:11 PM
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#21 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,673
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Erick i fight lvl 45+ mob's, ^^ mob's that usally come with a small group of 1 or 2 ^ mob's, lvl 45+ group encounter that consist of 5-6 mob's each encounter, what im trying to say is, with this amount of mob's at that level, im bound to almost alway's having 2 berserk icon flashing, just like i said above in a few post's up replying to one of your's, but my HP doesnt drop like you are stating. One reason it could be is because you are lvl 32 stuck 8 level's behind me ( almost 9 ) and im not using certain Berserk proc probability combat art's that you would be using at your current level, meaning that maybe one or two of the Berserk proc probability combat art's in your level range could be bugged. I have no problem tanking multiple lvl 45+ mob's, solo, single ^^, group encounter's, group encounter's with numerous ^, I tank Devout Thule in Feerrott and have had 2 Berserk Icon's flashing at time's during that fight, now since your level 32, you will have no idea what i am talking about, so ill just leave it at that. Let me come down to your level a bit, ill throw this in there for something to think about, you know in Zek, all the small group x2 encounter's that consist of 4 mob's, 3 normal and one ^^ mini boss mob in there? Well i could solo the group x2 encounter's at lvl 39, fully buffed, and procing 2 berserk's during the encounter, i had no problem tanking these when they were green, i have no problem duoing green, blue, and certain white con mob's reguardless of if there ethier solo, single ^^, group encounter's, once they become yellow and higher, they need to be group's to take them down. One last thing, let me ask this again since you speak of testing, have you tested each and every Berserk proc probability combat art we have in the book individually to see which one might be reducing your mitigation that you seem to be the only one proclaiming ? Only thing you have seemed to extensively test is multiple buff's at one time, how many nail's can you hit on the head at once when you have 10 in front of you? Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker
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02-24-2005, 09:55 PM
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#22 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4
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I just want to throw my two cents in here. Could it be something else entirely? IE you are taking more damage with 2 icons flashing than not, but not for the reason that you think? Could the causality be different? IE, you think cause: two zerk icons flashing effect: more damage comes in but instead, could it be? casue: more damage comes in effect, more zerk effects fire off making more of them flash just a thought.
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- Tiers lvl 41 warden - Xasis lvl 26 necro - Niris lvl 24 zerker - Nek server |
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02-24-2005, 10:42 PM
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#23 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 395
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See I told ya he would have the parses :smileyvery-happy: I have never seen the "double berserk damage casacade" that Erik mentions, however I dont disbelieve him. Is it possible that its a *particular* set of double berserk in a particular order? I'm 39 and have tanked solo/group quite a few mobs using both focus rage berserk and other berserk skills and never seen that dramatic mitigation loss. Maybe I just dont hit the same combo in the same order. Also if it does happen hitting the Rage skill usually will cancel one of the berserk icons (maybe alleviating the casacade?). Also, my understanding of mitigation is that the calc value (what you see based on skills) is applied against a table based on class type (all plates having the same table). This was the model used in EQ1 (with the DB/DI model)....not sure if it translates or not as there are some really different factors I dont parse, way too lazy, but I have learned (mostly from the old steelwarrior.org) that objective parse > 1000 subjective evaluations. Message Edited by CherobylJoe on 02-24-2005 12:51 PM
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---------------------- Flair Fifteenpiece - 54 Berserker of Guk, - Co-GL Infernal Requiem formerly Flair Shieldrender 70 Overlord of Fennin Ro "And as the Overlord raised his fist to the sky, the crowds cheered below. The soldiers began their familiar chant as the citizens joined in: "Strength in unity; unity in Lucan!" |
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02-25-2005, 12:03 AM
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#24 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 499
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This may have been true before Big Patch #2 (2/1/05) but it isn't anymore. The AC value you see in your Persona screen is now a calculated estimate based on the AC of your gear (which is all Mitigation except Shields, which are Avoidance [blocks]) and a composite of your "Avoidance," including Defense skill, Agility, Shield, Parry, etc. It's supposed to reflect the overall "Damage Taken over Time" (DToT) that any given character will take. It's only supposed to be used for comparison between characters.A person's total Mitigation score (the sum of the AC of your gear, excepting Shields) may well be applied against different tables based on Archetype, though. That wouldn't surprise me, particularly since I've seen posts on other classes' boards stating that, even though they have similar gear on, they take much more damage when mobs start pounding on them than Fighters do. |
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02-25-2005, 12:10 AM
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#25 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 165
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lol Xasis... "Could the causality be different?" _____________ someone has had way too much Matrix: Revolutions.... lol .
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02-25-2005, 07:52 PM
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#26 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 132
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I think its funny how people will listen to one guy blab on based on theory.... just because the new spell description doesn't say everything that it does, you assume it doesnt do anything else. for example, we all know if you buff in combat, it generates aggro.. mobs dont like whne you buff.. well guess what, go check those same buff description... nope nothing in the description about generating aggro. before talking about how beserk doesnt reduce mitigation, all i ask is try my test. take off all your rage type buffs, and go fight a double arrow up, green mob. watch what kind of damage your taking.. (you can do this solo too, so it really doesnt take that long) then do the fight, and try to keep one rage icon blinking.... then do it one more time trying to keep two rage icons blinking..... warning, if you keep two rage icons blinking, the green mob may kill you, so word of warning, but i think you'll find my point made immediatly... dont just believe some shmuck on the boards here saying I'M USING A PARSER, you might be suprised, based on half his answers i'd say he's reading descriptions off the skills, and speculating, and NOT parsing.. because anyone who parses (not just logs combat, but parses based on.. this fight i did this, this fight i did this this fight i did this...) will be able to tell you, YOU DO TAKE MORE DAMAGE. i'm done here, i'm not going to respond anymore, because were accomplishing nothing. I encourage everyone to try this themselves, my 5 minute test will confirm what i say, but dont just take somebodies word for it, try it yourself. -Erick
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02-25-2005, 08:57 PM
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#27 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,673
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All group buff's generate agro, not raise Hate / Threat, get agro on a mob, run out of range of a healer class, then back into buff range and see what happen's. And im saying this one last time Erick cause your starting to beat a dead horse, read my post's again, you will see i have performed your test's, and ive performed my own, on each individual berserk probability skill's, anyway, read my last post before this one on what i tested it all on. Taemek Frozenberg 40th Berserker
16th Outfitter Blood and Ice Everfrost Server Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired ) 70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist Five Rings on Luclin Server
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02-25-2005, 08:58 PM
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#28 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 45
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Lol, i like how thid kid trying to convince everyone about his stupid ideas.Go play a guardian or something you bring shame on the zerker class.Going berserk has no negative effect what so ever.Im a lv 50 zerker, been lv 50 for the past 2 months now, killed more mobs than i could remember. GOING INTO BERSERK MODE DOES NOT AFFECT YOUR TANKING ABILLITIES !!!!Also, if you are a berserker that doesnt wanna go into zerk mode, you should quit this game RIGHT NOW !!!!!
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02-25-2005, 10:11 PM
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#29 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 165
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i have no proof, but i have done tests and noticed the same exact thing erick has. 1 berzerk doesn't change my tanking abilities. 2 berzerk makes me take WAY more damage. i can solo certain green con double arrow up GROUP mobs... with reckless stance. however, if i let 2 berzerks stack and dont cancel one, i die. no matter what, i can no longer solo that mob. green con double arrow up group mobs can only hit me about 1 in 10 attacks. When 2 berzerks stack, as long as they are stacked, i seem to take nearly full damage, and get hit nearly every attack. I seriously doubt this is intended, but i am sure it is a bug.
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02-26-2005, 07:14 AM
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#30 |
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Loremaster
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 45
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Ok, let me try to explain this better, seems some of the ppl dont get it.Lets start with the " Berserk " description.- Cast Berserk on caster. When target is STRUCK , this spell has a 33% chance to: . increase damage per second of the attacker by 5% . increase attack speed of caster by 43%Now lets look at it this way. If you couldnt figure it out, you go into berserk mode WHEN YOU GET HIT. You dont get hit, you NEVER go into berserk mode. Now , why sometimes you get 2 berserk windows? BECAUSE YOU GET HIT SO MANY [Removed for Content] TIMES, YOU HAVE A VERY VERY VEEEERY HIGH CHANCE TO CAST BERSERK FROM EACH HIT, AND SOMETIMES YOU ACTIVATE IT FROM MORE THAN 1 SKILL.What do we learn from here? Thats right, this mob is not the same as the one that only puts you in 1 single berserk, this one is more powerful. hence thats why you getting your [FAAR-NERFED!] kicked and not couse you see 2 berserk icons.And for the love of God, pls stop talking about mobs like " green ^^ ". There are mobs and mobs, there are caster and melee, there are names and simple mobs, there are levels and levels. there are buffs and debuffs.No mob looks the same as other mob just couse you see it " green ^^ ".
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