Changes I would like to see made to the Guardian class.

[craized warrior]

<DIV><STRONG>Unresistable or very hard to resist Taunts</STRONG> - mobs resisting taunts is silly IMO, agro is hard enough to keep against big DPS classes like wizzies and swashbucklers without the high chance that my taunts are going to be resisted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>More Avoidance</STRONG>  - i would like to have my avoidance raised so that it is at least equal to around 75% of what a monk/bruiser can achieve with the same gear. i dont want monks to have to be changed to do this, id just like it changed so that guardians (and indeed zerkers, pallies and SK's) are able to achieve higher avoidance levels so that the likes of stuns etc have less chance to land, therefore making it easier to keep agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>More DPS</STRONG> - guardians are not and i should hope never will be a DPS class, however more DPS makes it easier to keep agro.</DIV> <DIV>i dont require a large boost to DPS just enough to make it easier to keep agro, around 20-30% increase prehaps, and preferably ability based as opposed to melee based as i believe our melee based DPS is fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These i believe are perhaps the most important changes us as guardians are crying out for, im sure people could point out some more but i would be perfectly happy if these changes were made.</DIV><p>Message Edited by craized warrior on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:26 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> craized warrior wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>More Avoidance</STRONG>  - i would like to have my avoidance raised so that it is at least equal to around 75% of what a monk/bruiser can achieve with the same gear. i dont want monks to have to be changed to do this, id just like it changed so that guardians (and indeed zerkers, pallies and SK's) are able to achieve higher avoidance levels so that the likes of stuns etc have less chance to land, therefore making it easier to keep agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>While at the same time raising brawler mitigation to at least 75% of that of a warrior.  Right?<BR>

[Krooner]

<P>Perhaps the solution to the stuns and styfles lies along with SOE's current thinking.</P> <P>When in a certain defensive stance</P> <P>Warrior class.... immune to physically based stuns ....Guardian  HTL immune to knockbacks.</P> <P>Brawler immune to magical based stuns</P> <P>Crusader immune to desease / poison based stunns </P> <DIV>I only put the secondary one there for the Guardian because were suppose to be the premo defense and knockbacks are physical.  I leave the door open for other classes to add a secondary effect as well.</DIV>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> craized warrior wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>More Avoidance</STRONG>  - i would like to have my avoidance raised so that it is at least equal to around 75% of what a monk/bruiser can achieve with the same gear. i dont want monks to have to be changed to do this, id just like it changed so that guardians (and indeed zerkers, pallies and SK's) are able to achieve higher avoidance levels so that the likes of stuns etc have less chance to land, therefore making it easier to keep agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>While at the same time raising brawler mitigation to at least 75% of that of a warrior.  Right?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wouldn't that reduce the brawlers mitigation?  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gaige]

Nope.  Mine buffed is normally around 2500.  Raiding early Noah's was like 5000?  Something like that.

[Greyto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR>Nope.  Mine buffed is normally around 2500.  Raiding early Noah's was like 5000?  Something like that. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My guardian looted a water flask (4 of em) today <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ladicav]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> craized warrior wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG>Unresistable or very hard to resist Taunts</STRONG> - mobs resisting taunts is silly IMO, agro is hard enough to keep against big DPS classes like wizzies and swashbucklers without the high chance that my taunts are going to be resisted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I would be happy with just this. This should be the Guardians domain, period. If we are meant to be unsung heroes and masters of agro management, prove it. Stop it with the stupid resists, and the AOE taunts that are not if some mobs in an encounter resist and other do not. Give us these tools to do it and make them reliable, not a push the button and pray the taunt sticks rubish we have now. Show me that Guardians are absolutely lock down 100% agro makers. Currently all fighters have good agro spells of some kind or another, what makes Guardians so much different in this regard? I still do not feel very unsung hero like in the agro game. We shouldn't need backup classes to make our hate generation more potent, it should already be, as part of our class definition/specialty. The backup classes should be used for the other fighters in the archetype, which would give Guardians the defining ability Moorgard claims we have.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Ladicav on <SPAN class=date_text>11-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:39 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Ladicav on <span class=date_text>11-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:46 PM</span>

[TunaBoo]

<div></div>I got better gear then noah and I ain't got 5000 mita oustide 3 people all using a 30 second buff on me. 3064 unbuffed. <div></div><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:56 AM</span>

[Skha]

<div></div>master POA = 400 something master priest buff = 500 something master def stance = 400 something legendary t6 potion = 240 You can't get 5k permanently maintainable EDIT oops forgot the conj buff = 200ish, but still not 5000 <div></div><p>Message Edited by Skharr on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:58 AM</span>

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR>Nope.  Mine buffed is normally around 2500.  Raiding early Noah's was like 5000?  Something like that. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I love the way that all Guardians are the same as Noah - according to Gaige.</P> <P> </P> <P>Put it this way mate , you have more Miti than i do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and i have almost full set of cobalt.  2365 miti. Self Buffed</P>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Drulak wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Gaige wrote:Nope.  Mine buffed is normally around 2500.  Raiding early Noah's was like 5000?  Something like that. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I love the way that all Guardians are the same as Noah - according to Gaige.</p> <p>Put it this way mate , you have more Miti than i do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and i have almost full set of cobalt.  2365 miti. Self Buffed</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Think currently at level 56 i have around 2600 mit w/o any buffs...With DEF Stance its just shy of 3k.  I think when grouped with my Fury and Defiler friends using every DEF buff we have I can get close 5k for a few seconds.  Of course during that tiem the Fury is stunned, and I am rooted like 3 different ways =P But for normal everyday stuff 2.5-3k seems to be about it.</span><div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> <P>Put it this way mate , you have more Miti than i do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and i have almost full set of cobalt.  2365 miti. Self Buffed<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's not self-buffed, mine was group buffed with my 30 second mit buffs.  Yeah Noah's was probably around 4500ish then, I wasn't really paying attention I was tired.</P>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR> I got better gear then noah and I ain't got 5000 mita oustide 3 people all using a 30 second buff on me. 3064 unbuffed.<BR> <P>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-02-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:56 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Nice we have a Gaige flamefest and a my [Removed for Content] is bigger than yours all in the same thread nice!</P> <P>I only have one piece of fabled and I can blow 5k out of the water, too bad it means nothing with the cap</P>

[craized warrior]

<P>"While at the same time raising brawler mitigation to at least 75% of that of a warrior.  Right?"</P> <P> </P> <P>No, like i said, i dont want monks changing at all, you guys are already very happy with the way your class is, why would you want to change?<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> craized warrior wrote:<BR> <P>No, like i said, i dont want monks changing at all, you guys are already very happy with the way your class is, why would you want to change?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Because, if they increase your avoidance they need to increase our mitigation.  You are not an avoidance class.<BR>

[Gungo]

<P>yeah katriniti,</P> <P>People early on were asking for more mitgation to fix guardians i kept saying more mitgation will do nothing with the 80% cap in place all it would do is make upgrading armour meaningless when you are already at the cap. Yet peopel still complain about mitgation. funny though there is some very good ideas to actually fix guards, but people constinely bicker saying they don't want them and only want more mitigation and/or avodiance. Those are not the 2 only numbers that effect tanking. The fact is pure tanking is relatively equal. DPS in the fighter tree has too broad of a gap. It was stated in that DPS chart made by moorgard that a gaurd focusing on dps would surpass a brawler who focused on tanking that is not the case. Guards also suffer from a lack of useful utility and general lack of immersion or a role with your character.</P> <DIV>BTW crazed warrior our tanking is balanced the gap in utility and dps is the true issue. Guards have no probelm tanking raid content or other content compared to other fighters. (other then the few mobs who ressit taunts which all fighters have since all fighter taunts are now mental based)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:22 AM</span>

[Krooner]

<DIV>Gaige wrote:</DIV> <DIV>Because, if they increase your avoidance they need to increase our mitigation.  You are not an avoidance class.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry partner but I have to scatch this itch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ALL other fighters are offensive based and do not need a defensive spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>makes about as much sense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not think adding more avoidance to us is the solution either.  Plate wearing individuals should be more resistant to physically based stuns and such.  Bralwers should and seem to be more resistant to magical and mental based stuns.  If you take the stuns down with this in mind then our DPS goes up and our survivability goes up as well.. ALL of ours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>Um warbird actually monks paladins and gaurds are the defensive fighters. Only in your world is gaurds the only defensive fighter.</P> <P>and i actually i feel crusaders should be the magic based fighters, brawlers should be the dps based fighters, and warriors should have the best and most versatile group buffs, taunts, debuffs.</P>

[Krooner]

<P>Gungo </P> <P>Nope... Not my opinion.  Im refereing to that famous Moorguard line where he goes on about us being the "defensive fighter"</P> <P>Soooooo dont dispute it with me.  Im just going along with Stevie on this to point out how absurd the notion is.</P> <P> </P>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>Um warbird actually monks paladins and gaurds are the defensive fighters. Only in your world is gaurds the only defensive fighter.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>and i actually i feel crusaders should be the magic based fighters, brawlers should be the dps based fighters, and warriors should have the best and most versatile group buffs, taunts, debuffs.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Umm, isn't this the way it was before LU13?  <BR>

[Gungo]

<P>yup Prynn it was cept gaurds were also the best at tanking damage by decent margin. Now that all fighters are tanking equally they need to work on your utility.</P> <P><STRONG>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______</STRONG></P> <P>Fact after LU 13 no class is required anymore. But Guards do tank as well as other fighters. Many other guards have said you do. Fact is guards are still the preferred MT in raids becuase they tank better and hold agro better. </P> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text>LU 13 didnt break guards they made it so all fighters can tank equally</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text><STRONG>Ask yourself after revamp is there any class so important now that you can't do a raid w/o them. That you can't group w/o them. The answer is no any tank can tank any healer can heal. Any caster/scout can dps.</STRONG>  <STRONG>That in itself is balanced</STRONG></SPAN></DIV> <P>Many gaurds have said it best. That fighters are unbalanced because brawlers have more dps and crusaders have more utility. Guards need better utility and Increased DPS. Thats the onyl thing unbalanced with fighters atm.</P> <P>It was posted prior by the devs that a guardian who focues more on offense woudl do mroe dps then a brawler who focused on defense. That is not the case currently on live. </P> <P>DPS does not neccesarily have to equal damage on combat arts it cna be acheived thru buffs or debuffs. Soem classes are inherently self buff oreinted some are group buff oriented. bards dont have alot of direct dps but they add alot of damage to the group via buffs and debuffs they are an example of a group orineted class. Many brawler skills are self oreinted in fact both monk and bruser have 1 group spell line.  </P> <P>This is a nice list of fixes on this board that does not turn gaurds into the best tank. I have not came up with these ideas but many were brought up by gaurds and non gaurds. I am playing a guard more often as well (lvl54+), but these are the ideas/changes i would like seen done.</P> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>1) AoE rescue line - (magic resist based) like old rescue ~900-1000hate and 1 agro position usable once every 5 min. Magic based if guards current AOE taunt is mental based. That gives guards 2 resist types for taunts.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>2) Change intervene lines for guards to equal 100% or less total damage taken. Change Guardian sphere into </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>A Group regenerating Ward - It would stop 1 or 2 hits and slowly regenerate. ~2,500. (althought guards should have an entire line dedicated to a group ward for all levels)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>3) Remove shield damage from "Tower of Stone", (If they want also add a new Tower of stone type line that has a % chance to block AOE's on group but damages shields 10-20% based on quality of spell.)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>4) </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Do more damage by possibly reducing timers on some combat arts and adding a</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00> few Debuffs to the mob's resistance to slashing/crushing and piercing (thereby increasing the damage done by the Guardian and group)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>5) Introduce a % stun resist to Hold the Line. Allow HTL to proc thru wards.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>6) increase the effectiveness of offensive stance by adding a small % to proc a stun or stifle as well as increased offensive damage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I would also like to see an 'all or nothing approach to group taunts'. Either it succeeds with all mobs, or fails with all mobs. That way you can recast it, instead of currently maybe aggroing 1 out of 5 and having to wait to recast your AOE taunt. or they can change it to have the faster recast if any mobs resists instead of the full recast if any succeed.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Finally SoE should explain what shield factor actual does since they revamped it so much. If shield factor effects avodiance then it would give a logical comparison between sheilds tiers/types. If both kite and tower give a base 10% block, shield factor should add to avodiance or at minimal spell resist or mitgation therefor a shield with a shield factor of 700 should give a set increase and a shiedl factor of 900 a higher increase. Even if it is minimal any sort of comparison and upgrade will be recommended.</FONT></P> <DIV>Alot of the above was posted by nemi for a bit and other gaurds and non gaurds. Those sort of utility will help gaurds solo a ton better, group alot better, and increase thier tanking while also allowing for a more skillful playing.</DIV> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 AM</span>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Gungo wrote: <P> </P> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text><STRONG>Ask yourself after revamp is there any class so important now that you can't do a raid w/o them. That you can't group w/o them. The answer is no any tank can tank any healer can heal. Any caster/scout can dps.</STRONG>  <STRONG>That in itself is balanced</STRONG></SPAN></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-02-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:27 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I know you have said this umpteenth times, but it was true before LU13 as well as after it.  I know you think that there *MUST* have been a Guardian on raids (I have been one many without a single Guardian), and there *MUST* be a healer (I have had all melee groups and all healer groups), so this statement holds no water.</P> <P>And please fix your posts so they don't keep stretching out the forum, it's annoying. </P>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>1) AoE rescue line - (magic resist based) like old rescue ~900-1000hate and 1 agro position usable once every 5 min. Magic based if guards current AOE taunt is mental based. That gives guards 2 resist types for taunts.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>2) Change intervene lines for guards to equal 100% or less total damage taken. Change Guardian sphere into </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>A Group regenerating Ward - It would stop 1 or 2 hits and slowly regenerate. ~2,500. (althought guards should have an entire line dedicated to a group ward for all levels)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>3) Remove shield damage from "Tower of Stone", (If they want also add a new Tower of stone type line that has a % chance to block AOE's on group but damages shields 10-20% based on quality of spell.)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>4) </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Do more damage by possibly reducing timers on some combat arts and adding a</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00> few Debuffs to the mob's resistance to slashing/crushing and piercing (thereby increasing the damage done by the Guardian and group)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>5) Introduce a % stun resist to Hold the Line. Allow HTL to proc thru wards.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>6) increase the effectiveness of offensive stance by adding a small % to proc a stun or stifle as well as increased offensive damage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I would also like to see an 'all or nothing approach to group taunts'. Either it succeeds with all mobs, or fails with all mobs. That way you can recast it, instead of currently maybe aggroing 1 out of 5 and having to wait to recast your AOE taunt. or they can change it to have the faster recast if any mobs resists instead of the full recast if any succeed.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Finally SoE should explain what shield factor actual does since they revamped it so much. If shield factor effects avodiance then it would give a logical comparison between sheilds tiers/types. If both kite and tower give a base 10% block, shield factor should add to avodiance or at minimal spell resist or mitgation therefor a shield with a shield factor of 700 should give a set increase and a shiedl factor of 900 a higher increase. Even if it is minimal any sort of comparison and upgrade will be recommended.</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-02-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:27 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah these are actually realistic potential changes to guardians, however I don't feel taunts should be resisted, they should work differently depending on the color con of the mob (weaker on stronger mobs / maybe resisted on reds - stronger on greens greys) meaning of you taunt an orange mob and the hate value is 600-800 the taunt should only generate 600-625 or so hate.  A raid shouldn't wipe because of one resisted taunt on incoming (and yes you will wipe or come close with the way auto aggro is working now).

[Krooner]

<P>Gungo:</P> <P>A lot of good yet rehashed info in that post.  Unfortunatly there is also a lot of missinformation.</P> <P>"<SPAN class=time_text>LU 13 didnt break guards they made it so all fighters can tank equally"</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>This is a matter of opinion.  If you look at what was intended by SOE to have happen then yeah you could say that.  If you look at what the player base and raiding guilds are doing with guards your dead wrong.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I took a long look at the raiding guilds on my server.  Ones I knew had a lot of Guardians.  What I saw was that they now had 4 or 5 monks sks and zerks for every one guardian.  You look at the guardians play time and off line for X amount of days.  WHAT SOE would like to have happen and what is actually happening is two different things.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Dont ask ME to prove it... prove me wrong.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Secondly.  Bards do have some rather nice DPS attacks.  The dirge ones are more DOT oriented such as the Scream of Death.  Do they do 10K instantly NO.  SOD will do close to 5K every minute at Ad3 with debuffs.  </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>In a nut shell SOE has failed to realize that you cant balance fighters in just tanking you have to balance them across the board or not at all.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>If you dont then the WHOLE fighter class is unbalanced.  Giage and other have said it.  If there is a best no one will want to play the worst. </SPAN></P>

[Skha]

<span><blockquote><hr>Raahl wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Gaige wrote: <blockquote> <hr> craized warrior wrote: <div></div> <div><strong></strong> </div> <div><strong>More Avoidance</strong>  - i would like to have my avoidance raised so that it is at least equal to around 75% of what a monk/bruiser can achieve with the same gear. i dont want monks to have to be changed to do this, id just like it changed so that guardians (and indeed zerkers, pallies and SK's) are able to achieve higher avoidance levels so that the likes of stuns etc have less chance to land, therefore making it easier to keep agro.</div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote>While at the same time raising brawler mitigation to at least 75% of that of a warrior.  Right? <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Wouldn't that reduce the brawlers mitigation?  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><hr></blockquote>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you mean my bruiser couldnt hit 8k mit anymore?!?! /cry</span><div></div>

[Gungo]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Prynn worte :</DIV> <DIV>I know you have said this umpteenth times, but it was true before LU13 as well as after it.  I know you think that there *MUST* have been a Guardian on raids (I have been one many without a single Guardian), and there *MUST* be a healer (I have had all melee groups and all healer groups), so this statement holds no water.</DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually Prynn you are wrong please provide the links were a non guard has tanked  ICY DIG, SoTL, Brutal acts, Nagalik, And kra'thunk (version 3.2 Final)</DIV> <DIV>Those are just a few raids i cna think of that i have never heard of anyone but gaurds tanking. Many more raids that didn't just require a gaurd or required a tricked out fabled crusader, and like 2-3 raids a brawler could tank. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:34 AM</span>

[craized warrior]

<DIV>"Because, if they increase your avoidance they need to increase our mitigation.  You are not an avoidance class."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i really dont care whether we are an "avoidance class" or not, i chose guardian because i wanted to be a tank, if i wanted to play a DPS fighter class i would have chosen a monk, now that monks tank as well as us but also completely outstrip us DPS wise, i believe the best course is to make us the better tanks again to balance the classes. improving our avoidance will improve our tanking ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>they improved monks, now we want them to improve guards/zerkers/plate classes. you should be happy that your class has been improved instead of trying your hardest to keep us guardians in the dirt. you didnt see any guardians constantly pushing to have our DPS raised to monk levels before all the class changes happened...<BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by craized warrior on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 AM</span>

[Gungo]

Consider also raising avoidance will make agro harder... since avoid means less HTL procs

[Krooner]

<P>Oh COME ONE Gungo.</P> <P>What part of the concept escapes you.</P> <P> I DONT KNOW OF ANY SO IT MUST HAVE BEEN IMPOSSIBLE  = FALSE STATEMENT UNPROVABLE STATEMENT</P> <P>I dont know who origionally posted that idiotic statement but its not up to us to prove it false. ITS up to you and everyone that believes it to prove it true.</P> <P>Soo I issue you the same challenge.  Prove to me that there was not one non guardian tank that COULD tank those mobs.</P> <P> Going back through all the logs and looking at every single raid encounter does not validate it.</P> <P>The only way to prove it would be to get in a magical time machine and go back 3 months and try every conceivable combination of groups without guardians.</P> <P>IF you want to really REALLY be a constructive member of the guardian discussions then drop this notion here and now.</P> <P>I will grant you this statement to be more true.</P> <P><U>Prior to LU13 a raid was much more likely to succede with a guardian to main tank then other classes.</U></P> <P>Or even this one</P> <P><U>Prior to LU13 There want enough non guardians MT for raid mobs.</U></P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-02-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:36 AM</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text>DARN Crappy keyboard at work.</SPAN> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 AM</span>

[ReviloTX]

<DIV>Hey Gungo, thanks for stopping in and telling us what we need to fix our class.  Next time bruisers are broke I'll make sure and stop by and tell you exactly how to fix em.</DIV>

[Gungo]

I play a full time gaurd now as well =) lvl 54 and growing thank you come again. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw warbird reread that statement i said I have never HEARD of anyone other then gaurds tanking those mobs. I never made any misleading statements. As a matter of fact i supplied the listings so its in his regard to disprove me. An argument formed on the fact that that one can not disprove the fact is not an argument. Just because no one has seen an cow fly doesnt mean it can. Its on the one who initially made the claim to supply the facts to support it. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:41 AM</span>

[Krooner]

<P>Really... Whos power leveling you?</P> <P> </P>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Bull!</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Gungo]

Airoguy quit the same tank i use to raid with is now the tank I am leveling along w another bruiser in guild to main tank raids.

[Krooner]

<P>Ohhh Ok ... I understand.</P> <P>You think you know all about guardians because you took one over well into T6 content.  OK</P> <P>Does that mean I can be a doctor if I buy my medical liecense and I watch ER on tv?</P> <P>Poor analogy yes... but just as silly as yours... If you want to understand us then ROLL your own from level1</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:45 AM</span>

[Gungo]

actually naw we leveled him from 51 -54 i played him pre-revamp when he was in class on raids. So yeah i have a decent idea of a guard pre and after combat revamp. And by your own account the gaurd is a completely new class after LU13 so i am on the same standing as you.

[Krooner]

<P>I know you would like to believe that Gungo.  Not flaming you here Im just saying your wrong.</P> <P>You didnt spend the hours of time grinding that toon up.  Up to the wee hours of the morning killing mobs and getting killed to get your gear and spells.  You may know what the guardian looks like but you dont know his full flavor.  </P> <P>I told my guild I wasnt going to start an alt until my Guardian hit 50.  When we werent in raids I spent my time delving into my dirge.  I spent the time to learn every part of the class and how he performed.  </P> <P>Yes this game isnt rocket science but you do have to spend more than a few raids to discover what your toon can do.</P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

i would agree with you but with the coming of LU13 the class has completely changed every spel,l every stat means something different, item tier, wpn damage, tacitcs, npc con,  mobs, everything. For you to claim i don't knwo the class because i havent leveled him from lvl 1 is B.S. unless you hold yourslef to the same regard and re-level a new gaurd under the current conditions. The guard you played from lvl 1-50 is not the same guard you play today. So i have just as much knowledge learning my new spells as you did when that update hit. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>neither you nor I know what it is to play a lvl 40 guard under the current conditions anymore. But i have all the right to hold my opinion from lvl 50-60.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:01 PM</span>

[Shizzirri]

<P>Leveling a guardian from 1-50 pre LU13 and leveling a guardian post LU13 from 51-54 are two completely different things, pre LU13 you could literally have a templar throw reactive heals on you, taunt once and go afk the for entire fight, post LU14 when Gungo was leveling the guard is a completely different story as far as holding aggro.  I'm not saying I'm agreeing with Gungo, but when you say oh I've leveled a guardian to 50 remember most likely it was done before the combat revamp when guardians we're basically "god-mode tanks" with the proper buffs.  Sadly though he probably knows more about guardians than half the people who post in these forums, including some of the guards...</P> <P>And quite honestly there isn't much to a guardian other than pure tanking as far as flavor, thats the price you pay for doing something like being the guild MT (which is still a guardian most likely), sadly though guardians do need some sort of "flavor" just to make the class more interesting or useful outside of that one MT, hence why we need more utility.</P>

[Krooner]

<DIV>And many people wonder WHY Guardians are so angry.  You just said it yourself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the hard work we did to level our toons is now meaningless.  How do you think you would feel if we just dumped the monks and Brawlers into the scout class or something.  Im sure you can see there is a difference between filling in for someone and leveling a toon up yourself. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its clear were never going to agree on this some Im just going to drop it before the thread gets locked.  There too much good info in here to get lost.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>Every class was changed Warbird not just guards so the whole pity me attitude doesn't fly here. Fact is you were wrong and i have as much knowledge and opinion as you do.</P> <P>truth be told i rarely ever play gungo on raids he is my quest alt. I am usually 2 boxing a troub/enchanter buff bot while playing my warden (raid bot). Only difference now is either me or another officer will have to play a guard in raids instead of one of our many characters. I only hold 3 50+ alts. flame our other guild bruiser has leveled at least 6 characters from 1-55+. He has a warden, bruiser coercer, conjuror, troubador, and wizard. All of those are 55-60 minus the wizard his new twink which is alreayd level ~30ish. and he started that wizard abit over a week ago. </P> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:13 PM</span>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>Every class was changed Warbird not just guards so the whole pity me attitude doesn't fly here. Fact is you were wrong and i have as much knowledge and opinion as you do.</P> <P>truth be told i rarely ever play gungo on raids he is my quest alt. I am usually 2 boxing a troub/enchanter buff bot while playing my warden (raid bot). Only difference now is either me or another officer will have to play a guard in raids instead of one of our many characters. I only hold 3 50+ alts. flame our other guild bruiser has leveled at least 6 characters from 1-55+. He has a warden, bruiser coercer, conjuror, troubador, and wizard. All of those are 55-60 minus the wizard his new twink which is alreayd level ~30ish. and he started that wizard abit over a week ago. </P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-02-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:13 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree with Warbird.  The last Guardian Gungo touched was the lion statue outside his local library.  </DIV>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>BTW you all missed the fact that Gungo's MT for his guild, "HIS MAIN TANK (GUARDIAN) IN THE GUILD" quit the game (wonder why he quit???) And now a Bruiser picked it up as his alt...</P> <P>Dont you all see the coralation?  Now if we all only had 55+ bruisers to play most the time we wouldnt mind draggin our Guards around with us leaching exp, just so they could MT a raid 3 times a week...</P> <P>Covenant</P> <DIV>P.S. 6 toons level 55+...my god get a "real life" there is a big world out there with tangible items and people, someone should get outside and visit it a little.</DIV> <P>Not to mention paying for 3-4accounts...what a waste of funds...</P> <P>Message Edited by TanRaistlyn on <SPAN class=date_text>11-02-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:24 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by TanRaistlyn on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:24 PM</span>

[Gungo]

Awe prynn thats the guy we all know and love the constructive poster who was proven wrong and resorts to personally flaming and bashing peopel to prove his point. Way to go bud you are a class act :smileyhappy:

[Krooner]

<P>Ok What ever Gungo.  </P> <P>Those of us that played the class for a whole year are now not only wrong about our class be we were wrong from the beginning.  We dont know what is best for our class so we have to wait for you and other people to tell us.  </P> <P>You just made my problem all that much easier to fix.</P> <P>Mauldred 53 Guardian demoted to ALT / COOK because the first 50 level mean nothing now.</P> <P>Krooner 56 Girge promoted from ALT to Guild leader</P> <P>Hope that makes you happy.</P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

Hey tan airoguy wasn't happy with gaurdians. But the tradeskill XP thing was the last straw. He was one of the few lvl 60 alchemist on our server. He might come back, but he said he needs a break for a bit.

[Gungo]

I am sorry warbird did you have a suggestion i thought you were just complaining?

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>And because you think Guardians Changes are on par, your guild now has a MT that isnt really there...just a couple people bot him for raids to tank...doesnt that clue you in to the huge problems the class is having atm?</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant 55 Guardian - Retired</P>

[Krooner]

<P>No Gungo.  I had many suggestions over many hundreds of posts.  I thought I was being fair.  I never wanted to be the only tank.</P> <P>When I posted a idea for a spell I tried to make sure it wasnt over powered or game breaking.  I wanted all the fighter classes to have something to bring to the table.</P> <P>BUT what ever its obvious that our efforts to bring the fun back to guardians arnt worth it. At least to me anymore.</P> <P>So what ever... have fun.</P> <P>My guild has one other T6 guardian I guess that all we need these days... we have some good SK's and Zerks.</P> <P>The only classes we are really short on are Wizards and Dirges.  Currently Im the only T6 Dirge so for the betterment of the guild and my pallet the guard gets put in the closted with the other old shoes.</P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

<P>Um tan did you read the giant list of fixes i proposed for guards who said i thought guardians were on par. I said tanking is relatively equal now big difference.</P> <P>warbird maybe you had suggestions and you are entitled to your opinion. But you came here trying to flame me and my ideas. If you don't liek them fine debate me on them, but 95% of the posts that followed my ideas are personal attacks and flames. And really i have no pity on you for playing a dirge for your guild because they need him. If you read my posts i rarely ever play gungo on raids. Its always a healer or troubador or enchanter. We only kept one guard in our guild becuase really two guards has always been useless. Now that air is gone we need either a new full time guard who plays alot or one of the officers who plays alot to take over the account. So for now we have him tacked on to the list of alts/ refugees that we use.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Pry]

<DIV>Gungo doesn't want Guardians to have more mitigation because it will make them seem greater to his Bruiser and he likes that his Bruiser can MT for raids and get all of the loot.   Everything else about playing Guardians on raids, or knowing what he's talking about, or having all this skill is a flat out lie.  Therefore, he doesn't want to get nerfed.  Since he doesn't have any vested interest in Guardians, his posting here is suspect.  Because anyone who was confident in their class and wasn't worried about it getting nerfed would not have to run to the solace of another forum that has nothing to do with oneself to express "ideas" that nobody wants to hear. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> craized warrior wrote:<BR> <DIV>if i wanted to play a DPS fighter class i would have chosen a monk</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Why would <EM>anyone</EM> play a DPS fighter when there are 12 entire classes designed to outdamage us.<BR>

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>Cuz they thought they were getting that Hybrid type, Good DPS/Ability to tank moderately...Regardless of their intent that was what the class was for 10months.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is as opposed to Guardians Awesome tankage/Horrible DPS...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gungo]

Haha nice prynn more personal attacks and bad info (especially coming from someone who has played a guard less after lu13 then i have). Mitgation has nothign to do with helpign guards in fact i did not say anything about mititgation other then agree with katriniti that its easy to hit the 80% cap w buffs so increasing mitgation will do nothing but reduce the effectiveness of upgrading armour. Whats the point of additional mitgation when you already well beyond the cap. I have stated numerous times i dont even play gungo on raids in fact flame is a 60 bruiser in my guild w full t6 legendary and soem fabled better suited then i for tanking. And if you don't believe i play a guard now send a tell to airoliz.innothule and say hi to me. I am on most days from 6-11pm. so good try prynn keep posting that bogus material and flaming everyone else who knows more then you because the fact is your guard is only lvl 51 and hasnt been on for over a month. While I have played from 51-54. Your criticism is stale and your points are meaningless. Since you enjoy WoW so much you should go haunt thier forums i hear there are many posters liek you there. I also hear they have only 1 real tank class. Take care bud don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Be nice...No reason to start throwing stuff like that back and forth...</P> <P>On another note I agree with you completely Gungo the mitigation cap is WAY WAY WAY too easy to hit.  And with the decling degree of effectiveness of stats as they go up past 400, what is the motivation to continue playing and raiding.  All the caps are too easy to reach...either raise the caps, or recreate the formulas...just one more example of broken end game content.</P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>Haha nice prynn more personal attacks and bad info (especially coming from someone who has played a guard less after lu13 then i have). Mitgation has nothign to do with helpign guards in fact i did not say anything about mititgation other then agree with katriniti that its easy to hit the 80% cap w buffs so increasing mitgation will do nothing but reduce the effectiveness of upgrading armour. Whats the point of additional mitgation when you already well beyond the cap. I have stated numerous times i dont even play gungo on raids in fact flame is a 60 bruiser in my guild w full t6 legendary and soem fabled better suited then i for tanking. And if you don't believe i play a guard now send a tell to airoliz.innothule and say hi to me. I am on most days from 6-11pm. so good try prynn keep posting that bogus material and flaming everyone else who knows more then you because the fact is your guard is only lvl 51 and hasnt been on for over a month. While I have played from 51-54. Your criticism is stale and your points are meaningless. Since you enjoy WoW so much you should go haunt thier forums i hear there are many posters liek you there. I also hear they have only 1 real tank class. Take care bud don't let the door hit you on the way out. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No, you mean that you played a Guardian at various times during it's journey from 51-54 while it had more hands on it than a doorknob at Grand Central Station.  When you level a Guardian from 1-50, go through all of the experiences of all of the abilities from those levels, then you can truly say that you can speak about Guardians.  Otherwise, your words are just polluting something that doesn't need to be polluted.  So I call you on it, you know it's true so your only (and quite pedestrian) rebuttal is to say, "Well gee, there's Prynn flaming me again duuuurh"   I don't know why that's hard to understand. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's the difference between you and me.  That and I haven't posted in the Bruiser forums (or any other forum except the Fury forum and only once) babbling on like some slack jawed yokel telling people what they need or don't need like I am some kind of prophet or Jesus for Bruisers. </DIV>

[Gungo]

Thanks for the comparison to jesus, but really its un deserving he was a far greater man then I. And actually naw i pretty much leveled him from 51-54 myself. Nice try though. And we went thru this alreayd prynn didn't we?  leveling a guard from 1-50 pre Lu 13 is a totally different class and game. You have no idea what it is to play a guard at lvl 30 currently. And i am not the only one who has said this here katriniti also made the statement. And prynn the difference between you and me is your a drama queen looking for attention. Who plays the message boards more then the game. yeah your right my rebuttel is your only arguments are personal attacks, because you don't offer anything constructive EVER. I am off to go level my guard now tata for now.

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>Thanks for the comparison to jesus, but really its un deserving he was a far greater man then I. And actually naw i pretty much leveled him from 51-54 myself. Nice try though. And we went thru this alreayd prynn didn't we?  leveling a guard from 1-50 pre Lu 13 is a totally different class and game. You have no idea what it is to play a guard at lvl 30 currently. And i am not the only one who has said this here katriniti also made the statement. And prynn the difference between you and me is your a drama queen looking for attention. Who plays the message boards more then the game. yeah your right my rebuttel is your only arguments are personal attacks, because you don't offer anything constructive EVER. I am off to go level my guard now tata for now. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>So Gungo, where's your brilliant plans for a class that you don't play other than you don't think Guardians need a mitigation increase and the ever popular spew about "Was there a class pre-LU13 that could..blah blah blah".   You can't even construct a sentence correctly enough to express a point. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And at least my suggestions are articulate, coherent, and forthright.   Because they are unconventional you can't see them and that's your problem.   Nevertheless, I have no respect for you because you haven't played a Guardian, and that means from 0-50 and until you do nothing you say has any credibility with me (and many others I am sure). </DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>Prynn wrote.</P> <P>So Gungo, where's your brilliant plans .......................</P> <P>__________________________________________________ _______________________________________</P> <P>how cute prynn same trite different day. Here ya go. You must if missed it in your tirade. Btw it really hurts me you don;t respect me truly it does. :smileysad:</P> <P>This is a nice list of fixes on this board that does not turn gaurds into the best tank. I have not came up with these ideas but many were brought up by gaurds and non gaurds. I am playing a guard more often as well (lvl54+), but these are the ideas/changes i would like seen done.</P> <DIV> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>1) AoE rescue line - (magic resist based) like old rescue ~900-1000hate and 1 agro position usable once every 5 min. Magic based if guards current AOE taunt is mental based. That gives guards 2 resist types for taunts.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>2) Change intervene lines for guards to equal 100% or less total damage taken. Change Guardian sphere into </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>A Group regenerating Ward - It would stop 1 or 2 hits and slowly regenerate. ~2,500. (althought guards should have an entire line dedicated to a group ward for all levels)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>3) Remove shield damage from "Tower of Stone", (If they want also add a new Tower of stone type line that has a % chance to block AOE's on group but damages shields 10-20% based on quality of spell.)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>4) </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Do more damage by possibly reducing timers on some combat arts and adding a</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00> few Debuffs to the mob's resistance to slashing/crushing and piercing (thereby increasing the damage done by the Guardian and group)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>5) Introduce a % stun resist to Hold the Line. Allow HTL to proc thru wards.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>6) increase the effectiveness of offensive stance by adding a small % to proc a stun or stifle as well as increased offensive damage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I would also like to see an 'all or nothing approach to group taunts'. Either it succeeds with all mobs, or fails with all mobs. That way you can recast it, instead of currently maybe aggroing 1 out of 5 and having to wait to recast your AOE taunt. or they can change it to have the faster recast if any mobs resists instead of the full recast if any succeed.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Finally SoE should explain what shield factor actual does since they revamped it so much. If shield factor effects avodiance then it would give a logical comparison between sheilds tiers/types. If both kite and tower give a base 10% block, shield factor should add to avodiance or at minimal spell resist or mitgation therefor a shield with a shield factor of 700 should give a set increase and a shiedl factor of 900 a higher increase. Even if it is minimal any sort of comparison and upgrade will be recommended.</FONT></P> <DIV>Alot of the above was posted by nemi for a bit and other gaurds and non gaurds. Those sort of utility will help gaurds solo a ton better, group alot better, and increase thier tanking while also allowing for a more skillful playing.</DIV></DIV>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>YES GOD YES!!!</P> <P>GUNGA I take back every thing I said about you (if I have said anything bad about you)  Cuz I want all those things you just mentioned to come to pass.  AND ASAP.  I love every single one of them, and I think every single one of them is important and will NOT overpower the guardian class.  If those changes go Live Ill start playing my Guard again.</P> <P>SOE sticky that post, Get something done, Im pitching a tent right now thinking about it.</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Gungo]

Actually none of those ideas are really new there are just fixes to exisiting abilties that many guards consider broken. If they would just fix the "broken" abilites gaurds have guards would be more fun to play.

[Pry]

Those fixes are all good, but they are group based ability fixes.  What about the PvP Guardian, or the Solo Guardian, or the Questing Guardian?  The thinking is so centric as to "fixing" existing group abilities, so how is that going to make it more fun when I can't finish a quest by myself, PvP or Solo efficiently to make it worthwhile to play? <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>Taunts used to have a stifle attached to them, which was great for the solo player.  Now the stifle is gone, so therefore the taunt to a solo player is worthless.</LI> <LI>AOE Rescue line is a good idea, but the problem is that first that Rescue works sporatically (a), and (b) that it's another useless ability for the solo player. </LI> <LI>Guardian Sphere's #1 problem is that it's range is entirely too small.  Therefore unless you are making out with the Guardian who is casting it, you probably aren't going to get the benefit of it.  </LI> <LI>A weapon proc is a bad idea, because it probably won't stack with other weapon procs (if you have them), so that means that some really good guardian weapons are going to have to be shelved in favour of other weapons without procs.  </LI> <LI>Shield factor should be changed back to the old 20% Tower Shield to block percentage.</LI> <LI>HTL is meant to be a secondary aggro generator, not a 1st line aggro generator.  The game mechanics made people use it as a 1st line aggro generator, so it should be changed to a 2nd line aggro generator and then you wouldn't need to put 1st line functions on it like % stun resist.  </LI> <LI>Avoidance/Mitigation is a ludicrious concept because some <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>warriors</STRONG></FONT> (highlighted for [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] who think warrior = brawler)<STRONG> </STRONG>will avoid (if they are more agile) and some will mitigate (if they have more strength), and so therefore there is no reason why this cannot be one value such as "ARMOR CLASS".  </LI></UL> <DIV>So again, here are some holes in that yellow mess that you posted.  You can't get the big picture because you're too focused on grouping and haven't played a guardian enough to know what the abilities really do, or what Guardians really need.  </DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>1)Taunts have always been particularly useless in solo play other then to finish an HO for all fighter classes. AOE rescue as magic based gives gaurds an option completly different then other fighters since they would be the only fighter w 2 forms of resists. </P> <P>2)Guardian sphere does have a small radius, but changing it to a group ward makes it significantly more useful. Basically it protects the group when they are close by OR it gives guards an extra edge on damage absorbtion since group wards can be used by the caster as well. *This will help the solo player* also i mention giving an entire line of group protection ward ability to gaurds. A ward is just another way of saying he used his shield to stop the damage from hitting the group. </P> <P>3) i never mention a wpn proc. I said offensive stance should have a stun/stilfe proc as well as increased DPS. And multiple procs do stack. Once you play more you will see you can have as many procs on a wpn independantly as you want. The only procs that dont stack are certain scout poisens which even they can stack 3 different poisens potions, as well as wpn procs and offensive stance procs.</P> <P>4)Moorgard already responded to my shield factor question. He stated shield factor does supply an addition avodi percent BUT it was not being displayed on the persona window which is being address in LU16b. SO shields w larger shield factors are better. </P> <P>5) adding stun ressit has nothing to do with agro generation of maddening defense. It is ment to counter the added stuns recieved from lower avodiance. IN other words Stun resist has nothing to do with agro generation. </P> <P>6) Wrong game different values and maybe i missed something in your post but how does strength add mitigation?</P> <P>"and some will mitigate (if they have more strength)"</P> <DIV>I know you have something against me personally Prynn, but you only read what you want to read. You totally neglect the fact that a group ward will help a solo gaurd, decreasing timers on CA will add more dps because of faster recasts. Adding debuffs to attacks will increase dps to not only th gaurd when soloing but while in groups. Increasing damage on offesnive stance ( the primary solo stance used) will increase soloing time vs reward.  Adding stun/stifles proc on solo stance will reduce damage incurred soloing. Also you neglected how removing the shield damage from tower of stone will help gaurds soloing, becuase it will no longer have a drawback. So maybe you are to focused on the solo gaurd and neglect ALL the guardians situations. Keep trying Prynn someday you might come up with a coherent argument.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:37 AM</span>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>1)Taunts have always been particularly useless in solo play other then to finish an HO. AOE rescue as magic based gives gaurds an option completly different then other fighters since they would be the only fighter w 2 forms of resists. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Again, that's not true because Taunts had a stifle before.  If you played a guardian, you would know that.   Anyone who soloed who was worth his or her salt used taunts all the time while soloing because of the stifle.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Rescue is not an ability to give resists, it's an emergency ability to regain aggro from an encounter.  It doesn't work, and to make it an AOE rescue with a magic resist is defeating the pupose of the spell in the first place.  Again, you don't understand the mechanics of Guardians so you don't know this.</FONT>  </P> <P>2)Guardian sphere does have a small radius, but changing it to a group ward makes it significantly more useful. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>And is it going to overwrite all of the wards that any other class can put on?  Or is this a ward-stacking measure?  Either way, it won't work.</FONT>  </P> <P>Basically it protects the group when they are close by OR it gives guards an extra edge on damage absorbtion since group wards can be used by the caster as well. *This will help the solo player* </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Solo players <STRONG>can't</STRONG> cast Guardian Sphere on themselves.  Again, lack of playing a Guardian makes you unknowledgable to what Guardains need.</FONT>  </P> <P>also i mention giving an entire line of group protection ward ability to gaurds. A ward is just another way of saying he used his shield to stop the damage from hitting the group. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>That's just plain unintelligent.   The shield is moderately useful now to one player, how do you think it's going to protect a group spread out across 200 meters in a circle?</FONT></P> <P>3) i never mention a wpn proc. I said offensive stance should have a stun/stilfe proc as well as increased DPS. And multiple procs do stack.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Ok, then if you want to make offensive stance have a stun/stifle proc (which are existant in other abilities), then what are you going to do for defensive stance?   I hate this idea, because it's going to cause issues with other guardian abilities, and does nothing to increase DPS nor does it help anyone.  Put it on a taunt, then we are talking.</FONT>  </P> <P>4)Moorgard already responded to my shield factor question. He stated shield factor does supply an addition avodi percent BUT it was not being displayed on the persona window which is being address in LU16b. SO shields w larger shield factors are better. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Duh?</FONT></P> <P>5) adding stun ressit has nothing to do with agro generation of maddening defense. It is ment to counter the added stuns recieved from lower avodiance. IN other words Stun resist has nothing to do with agro generation. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>You said Hold the Line, different ability, but it still takes nothing away from what I said if you would bother to read it.</FONT>  </P> <P>6) Wrong game different values and maybe i missed something in your post but how does strength add mitigation?</P> <P>"and some will mitigate (if they have more strength)"</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>To say that one tank avoids, and one mitigates is stupid, don't you think?  How can you ever balance that (you cannot).</FONT>  </P> <DIV>I know you something against me personally Prynn, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Because you post here like you are knowledgable about a class you don't play, therefore influencing Guardians who don't read what you wrote (and I wonder why) even though what you write is always flawed and always wrong.   And I am going to call you on it and keep calling you on it until you go back to the brawler forums where you belong.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but you only read what you want to read. You totally neglect the fact that a group ward will help a solo gaurd, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Which I proved wrong already Genius.</FONT>  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>decreasing timers on CA will add more dps because of faster recasts. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Well, one of the chief complaints has been that people are just mashing buttons with reckless abandon, so that's not going to be fixed by decreasing the timer.</FONT>  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adding debuffs to attacks will increase dps to not only th gaurd when soloing but while in groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>There were debuffs on some abilities before LU13.  This is not any revolutionary concept.</FONT>  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Increasing damage on offesnive stance ( the primary solo stance used) will increase soloing time vs reward.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>No, it won't, because offensive stance isn't damage based, it's speed based.  So increase the haste on offensive stance would be a more apropos description, but you play a Guardian so you know this already.  teehee.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adding stun/stifles proc on solo stance will reduce damage incurred soloing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Only if stifles are added to Taunts like they used to be.  We can already stun with a shield.  This is not a new idea, this is a pre-LU13 reality.</FONT>  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also you neglected how removing the shield damage from tower of stone will help gaurds soloing, becuase it will no longer have a drawback. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So maybe you are to focused on the solo gaurd and neglect ALL the guardians situations. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>No, unlike you I am focused on ALL guardians in ALL situtations.  Not just posting on some forum because I don't want my main bruiser to get nerfed.  I want what's best for them and for me as a Guardian, and I certainly think you are the very last person to give advice on Guardians because of your proven design on keeping Guardians nerfed. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep trying Prynn someday you might come up with a coherent argument.</DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>If by coherent you mean paragraphs without run on sentences and punctuation while loaded with correctly spelled words and with reasonable thought, I think I am doing just fine <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:30 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Gungo]

<DIV> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>1)Taunts have always been particularly useless in solo play other then to finish an HO. AOE rescue as magic based gives gaurds an option completly different then other fighters since they would be the only fighter w 2 forms of resists. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Again, that's not true because Taunts had a stifle before.  If you played a guardian, you would know that.   Anyone who soloed who was worth his or her salt used taunts all the time while soloing because of the stifle. </FONT>the power cost vs the benefit solo was minimal prelu13, currently taunts are completely useless so my idea on helping taunts by making a aoe form of rescue will only benefit the agro abilites of guards. If you played a gaurdian after LU13 you would know that.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Rescue is not an ability to give resists, it's an emergency ability to regain aggro from an encounter.  It doesn't work, and to make it an AOE rescue with a magic resist is defeating the pupose of the spell in the first place.  Again, you don't understand the mechanics of Guardians so you don't know this.</FONT>  Do you have any idea what's going on anymore? Taunts are resisted all fighters taunts are mental based and are checked against the NPC mental resist. by giving guards an aoe version of rescue on top of the current rescue and a different ressit check guards now can taunt better and mroe versatile then other fighters. PRynn seriously you have no idea whats going on in game anymore and its blatantly apparent. </P> <P>2)Guardian sphere does have a small radius, but changing it to a group ward makes it significantly more useful. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>And is it going to overwrite all of the wards that any other class can put on?  Or is this a ward-stacking measure?  Either way, it won't work.</FONT>  Um once again wards now stack with each other. Once again you have no idea whats going on in the game.</P> <P>Basically it protects the group when they are close by OR it gives guards an extra edge on damage absorbtion since group wards can be used by the caster as well. *This will help the solo player* </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Solo players <STRONG>can't</STRONG> cast Guardian Sphere on themselves.  Again, lack of playing a Guardian makes you unknowledgable to what Guardains need.</FONT>  einstein i said change Sphere into a group ward please read before posting nonsense.</P> <P>also i mention giving an entire line of group protection ward ability to gaurds. A ward is just another way of saying he used his shield to stop the damage from hitting the group. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>That's just plain unintelligent.   The shield is moderately useful now to one player, how do you think it's going to protect a group spread out across 200 meters in a circle? </FONT>once again reading comprehension someone neglected you. A ward that regenreates will offer protection to all memebrs in the group if they get Hit. If they don't then the gaurd cna use the shield to help him perform his primary ability in all situation not just group, but solo and PvP and raiding. </P> <P>3) i never mention a wpn proc. I said offensive stance should have a stun/stilfe proc as well as increased DPS. And multiple procs do stack.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Ok, then if you want to make offensive stance have a stun/stifle proc (which are existant in other abilities), then what are you going to do for defensive stance?   I hate this idea, because it's going to cause issues with other guardian abilities, and does nothing to increase DPS nor does it help anyone.  Put it on a taunt, then we are talking.</FONT>  Nothing Defense stance is the same for all fighters.  How does it not increase Dps are you blind as well? If the guard is not tanking he is in offensive stance by ncreasing daamge on offensive stance and giving it a small stilfe/stun proc you now give guards an additional role in groups. Seriously you are just arguing with me to argue and you complaints are based on an old system based on pre Lu13. Once you actually log into the game you cna see the game is actually different then the Bs you are dribbling here.</P> <P>4)Moorgard already responded to my shield factor question. He stated shield factor does supply an addition avodi percent BUT it was not being displayed on the persona window which is being address in LU16b. SO shields w larger shield factors are better. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Duh? </FONT>I guess the Duh? meant you couldnt comprehend this statement its ok no one is judging you. This statement was in regard to your comment that tower shields should give 20% aovid again. where i stated that moorgard said that the displayed value of shield factor was not being shown. So a tower shield will have a base 10% block AND the extra avoidance granted from shield factor. W/O seeing the results from LU16b  i can only guess a shield factor of 900+ will give an extra 5-10% avoid. No way to tell until one sees the results from LU16b.  </P> <P>5) adding stun ressit has nothing to do with agro generation of maddening defense. It is ment to counter the added stuns recieved from lower avodiance. IN other words Stun resist has nothing to do with agro generation. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>You said Hold the Line, different ability, but it still takes nothing away from what I said if you would bother to read it.</FONT>  Whoops yeah i Ment HTL, but same thing. Stun resist has nothign to do with the first line agro generation of HTL. Its a seperate issue. Don't know if you cna comprehend that.</P> <P>6) Wrong game different values and maybe i missed something in your post but how does strength add mitigation?</P> <P>"and some will mitigate (if they have more strength)"</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>To say that one tank avoids, and one mitigates is stupid, don't you think?  How can you ever balance that (you cannot).</FONT> Different games different ideology. EQ2 devs beleive they cna balance avodi and mitigation vanguard does not. If you dont think it spossible thats fine no one is keeping you from playing another game. But you still fail to answer my question how does strength efect mitigation as you claim. Or is that another one of your thoughts that is completely off.</P> <DIV>I know you something against me personally Prynn, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Because you post here like you are knowledgable about a class you don't play, therefore influencing Guardians who don't read what you wrote (and I wonder why) even though what you write is always flawed and always wrong.   And I am going to call you on it and keep calling you on it until you go back to the brawler forums where you belong.  </FONT>Actually Prynn you offered nothign constructive in fact i had many more guards who agreed with me then agreed with the way you troll these boards. You only resort to flaming everyone on these boards and probably should be banned. You never offer anything but direct attacks on people. You lack any form of creativity or intelligence and always retort to the same tactics. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but you only read what you want to read. You totally neglect the fact that a group ward will help a solo gaurd, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Which I proved wrong already Genius.</FONT>  and i already proved your wrong wards do stack, but thanks for the compliment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>decreasing timers on CA will add more dps because of faster recasts. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Well, one of the chief complaints has been that people are just mashing buttons with reckless abandon, so that's not going to be fixed by decreasing the timer.</FONT>  Complaint by whom? You have said many times this game only involves button smashing, and no skill i thought?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adding debuffs to attacks will increase dps to not only th gaurd when soloing but while in groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>There were debuffs on some abilities before LU13.  This is not any revolutionary concept.</FONT>  READ and comprehend i know its a difficult concept but i never took credit for all those ideas. Way to go at least you understand its a useful uility for guards to have sinc eyou don't have anothe rhalf baked argument.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Increasing damage on offesnive stance ( the primary solo stance used) will increase soloing time vs reward.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>No, it won't, because offensive stance isn't damage based, it's speed based.  So increase the haste on offensive stance would be a more apropos description, but you play a Guardian so you know this already.  teehee.  </FONT>Funny on one of the main complaints you have on me is typos when you do them as well. If you are going to call me out you might as well spell check your typing. And once again you are wrong Offensive stance has SKILL increases for guards in them which directly relate to DAMAGE not speed. So if you played a guard RECENTLY you would know this right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adding stun/stifles proc on solo stance will reduce damage incurred soloing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Only if stifles are added to Taunts like they used to be.  We can already stun with a shield.  This is not a new idea, this is a pre-LU13 reality.</FONT>  Haha you are so daft. so instead of an innate proc for stifles/stuns you would rather waste extra power to add stun/stifles to taunts which are useless soloing? Seriosuly Prynn dust off the game and log into it to see whats really going. You are so off nowadays on all your complaints is basically pointless to argue with you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also you neglected how removing the shield damage from tower of stone will help gaurds soloing, becuase it will no longer have a drawback. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So maybe you are to focused on the solo gaurd and neglect ALL the guardians situations. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>No, unlike you I am focused on ALL guardians in ALL situtations.  Not just posting on some forum because I don't want my main bruiser to get nerfed.  I want what's best for them and for me as a Guardian, and I certainly think you are the very last person to give advice on Guardians because of your proven design on keeping Guardians nerfed. </FONT>Haha i been postign ideas to fix guards for a bit i have no desire to MT raids. (not that i don't think brawlers shouldn't) But You have offered NOTHING in regars to fixing guards at all EVER. You have no focus, Unless you consider personally attacking people on forums a focus. And the only reason you post on these forums is because you have some sort of low self esteem and feel the need for attention. Thus resorting to drama queen like tactics and personally flaming people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep trying Prynn someday you might come up with a coherent argument.</DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>If by coherent you mean paragraphs without run on sentences and punctuation while loaded with correctly spelled words and with reasonable thought, I think I am doing just fine <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></FONT> Yup i have no problem admitting i don't write here as elequently as i do on work, but then again thats why i have a secretary here. either or your complaints on my ideas are based on outdated and bad info and you have no idea whats goign on anymore.</P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:39 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:47 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:50 AM</span>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote: <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haha i been postign ideas to fix guards for a bit i have no desire to MT raids. (not that i don't think brawlers shouldn't) But You have offered NOTHING in regars to fixing guards at all EVER. You have no focus, Unless you consider personally attacking people on forums a focus. And the only reason you post on these forums is because you have some sort of low self esteem and feel the need for attention. Thus resorting to drama queen like tactics and personally flaming people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oh please.   Like your idiotic self cares what suggestions I do or don't give anyway.  There have been plenty of things I have put forth both game wise and guardian wise.  And it seems that you are the one attacking all the time, so that's a 2-way street.  </P> <P>You don't like that I am not kissing your posterior and praising you for <FONT color=#ff0000 size=5>ideas that won't work</FONT> (which are only ideas so you won't get nerfed).  That's all, there isn't anything more to discuss.  If people want to believe a BRUISER over a GUARDIAN then that's their perrogative.  Fact is, I played a Guardian from 0-51 and you didn't.  End of story.   </P>

[Gungo]

<P>Haha i flame and attack you. Um read my posts bud you are the one who follows me around and post after everyone of my posts in fact this very same thread you hijacked i posted before you were even here. And i cna supply numerous threads where you have completely hijacked the thread rsorting to name calling and persoanlyl bashing me and other posters right off the bat. No where do u see me following all your posts and directly atttackign everythign you write. but then again like you said thats the difference between me and you. You seem to crave that attention. </P> <P>Thats nice different game though i played a guard at 50 and to 54 almost 55 now. you are the one who doesnt know whats going on in the game CURRENTLY. blantantly obvious to any reader who comes here and sees your claims. End of story.</P> <P>prynn claims: <P>procs dont stack- WRONG <P>wards dont stack- WRONG <P>Guardians offensive stance is only speed based- WRONG Skill values increase DAMAGE capability <P>Taunts have nothing to do with resists checks- WRONG all taunts are mental based</P> <P>Strength effects mitigation- So WRONG its not even funny</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:07 AM</span>

[Pry]

<P>I said nothing of the sort. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>I never said procs don't stack.  What I said is that the potential exists if there are imbued weapon procs to interfere with the normal procs that weapon makes.  I didn't say it would, I didn't say it wouldn't.  How do procs "stack" anyway, that in itself is just impossible.</P> <P>I never said that wards don't stack.  What I did say was that the potential exists to add to the wards that are already innately put on there by other classes.  If you could ward a toon to a large amount of HP, how is that balanced?  </P> <P>I never said that guardian offensive stance was ONLY speed based.  What I did say was that the base speed should be increased, rather than the damage because adding to the damage won't necessarily increase DPS (<-- Damage Per Second, a speed based concept).  </P> <P>I never said that taunts have nothing to do with resist checks (this one actually made me lol).  What you did is took a bit from one line, and a bit from another and made up your very own sentence!  *claps happily*.  Don't worry though, next year in 3rd grade the material gets much more difficult.</P> <P>I never said that strength affects mitigation.  What I did do was give an example of how attribute based combat systems don't work that well (and you could have substituted strength for wisdom, or intelligence or googleplex for as much as it mattered).  Reading comprehenzion is yer freend.</P> <P>Playing a toon from 50 (although in the other thread it was 51 and in a different thread you only played it on raids and in a different thread everyone in your guild played it (and boy do I feel sorry for them)) to 54 does not make you an expert.  Playing them today as opposed to yesterday does not make you more knowledgable.  I could sign on my Guardian on friday night and level up that lifesucker to 60 by Sunday night. </P> <P>And taking posts and doing creative post-editing and changing words from other's posts to suit your non-nerfing agenda is only making you look worse.   All of your posts are edited because people like me call you on things and you can't be a man and stand up and take responsibility for them, nor do you respect anyone enough to even take time to make a coherent post, nor can you admit that your ideas aren't all that and a bag of chips.  And if flaming you is calling a spade a spade, then guilty as charged sir!</P> <P>Oh and P.S.:  Please ban me.  I have lots of money to spend on lots more accounts.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Gungo]

Look at my edit times i edit my posts because of the lock out time on this board, but i generally finish editing my posts BEFORE someones responds. I rarely ever edit my post after someone responds. Nice try though sorry i didn't edit yoru comments to make you look bad you did that yourself. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>fact is your wrong assasins offensive stance procs stack with thier wpn procs hence if they give guards a offesinve stilfe/stun proc it would stack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>fact is your wrong wards stack from all classes now defilers mystics and paladins and wards all stack. wards are independant and are not the same thing as adding direct HP's a ward is a form of healing and damage absorbtion.</DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>"No, it won't, because offensive stance isn't damage based, it's speed based.  So increase the haste on offensive stance would be a more apropos description, but you play a Guardian so you know this already.  teehee. '</FONT> <P>thats your direct qoute your wrong again YOU DID SAY IT WAS SPEED BASED. and adding damage to each hit will increase DPS its simple math really i guess your math is about as good as your reading comprehension huh?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Rescue is not an ability to give resists, it's an emergency ability to regain aggro from an encounter.  It doesn't work, and to make it an AOE rescue with a magic resist is defeating the pupose of the spell in the first place.  Again, you don't understand the mechanics of Guardians so you don't know this.</FONT>  </P> <P>Wrong again direct qoute from you. You somehow thought i meant rescue was ment to give resist. You completely misunderstood. Were i said make another AOE taunt that was magic based. One can only presume you had no idea taunts are mental based resists. Its because you lack any form of comprehension. TanR got the point as did many other posters, but don't worry in your case ignorance truly is bliss.</P><SPAN class=time_text> <LI>Avoidance/Mitigation is a ludicrious concept because some <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>warriors</STRONG></FONT> (highlighted for [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] who think warrior = brawler)<STRONG> </STRONG>will avoid (if they are more agile) and some will mitigate (if they have more strength), and so therefore there is no reason why this cannot be one value such as "ARMOR CLASS".  </LI> <P>Wrong again thats your direct qoute from you again. Once again you never stated this was a theortical example of a stat based system you implied the current system is based on this premiss. And if you did merit for it to be an example why did you feel the need to obscure the current system.</P></SPAN><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:52 PM</span>

[Pry]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> Look at my edit times i edit my posts because of the lock out time on this board, but i generally finish editing my posts BEFORE someones responds. I rarely ever edit my post after someone responds. Nice try though sorry i didn't edit yoru comments to make you look bad you did that yourself. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>fact is your wrong assasins offensive stance procs stack with thier wpn procs hence if they give guards a offesinve stilfe/stun proc it would stack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>fact is your wrong wards stack from all classes now defilers mystics and paladins and wards all stack. wards are independant and are not the same thing as adding direct HP's a ward is a form of healing and damage absorbtion.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:43 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't have to edit my posts because of the lock out time, and they are rather verbose <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assassins weapon proc is poison based.   Another reason why putting it on the offensive stance is a terrible idea (besides what I already said) is that it would proc at moments in which you didn't want it to proc and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it except to go out of offensive stance, which sucks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You do realise that what you said is totally contradictory to the argument that wards stack.  I think what you mean to say is that wards are aggregate, and even if they are (which I have doubts about), adding it to a broken ability (again) isn't going to help and I am a Guardian, not a freakin Paladin or Mystic, Warden, or Fury and I don't want that crap on my abilities.  I can get my own ward with my PGT so I don't need one on an ability and I certainly don't want to cast Guardian Sphere on myself (if I even could, which I cannot).  And moreover, I don't want to "ward" other people because it's a B.S. sissy fix to a broken spell.  That clear enough for you?</DIV>

[Pry]

Again, more edits from the "I never edit guy"<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote: <P>thats your direct qoute your wrong again YOU DID SAY IT WAS SPEED BASED. and adding damage to each hit will increase DPS its simple math really i guess your math is about as good as your reading comprehension huh?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Where did I say it was<U><STRONG> ONLY</STRONG> </U>speed based Gungo?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Rescue is not an ability to give resists, it's an emergency ability to regain aggro from an encounter.  It doesn't work, and to make it an AOE rescue with a magic resist is defeating the pupose of the spell in the first place.  Again, you don't understand the mechanics of Guardians so you don't know this.</FONT>  </P> <P>Wrong again direct qoute from you. You somehow thought i meant rescue was ment to give resist. You completely misunderstood. Were i said make another AOE taunt that was magic based. One can only presume you had no idea taunts are mental based resists. Its because you lack any form of comprehension. TanR got the point as did many other posters, but don't worry in your case ignorance truly is bliss.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ff6600>WHAT IN BLOODY HELL DOES RESCUE HAVE TO DO WITH A TAUNT?  I know it looks like a taunt, and I know it might smell like a taunt, but it's an ability, not a taunt.  God you kill me.  And that's not what you said, you said <FONT color=#ff99ff>"</FONT><EM><FONT color=#ff99ff>Taunts have always been particularly useless in solo play other then to finish an HO</FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000>(Editor note:  even though they had a stifle).</FONT> <FONT color=#ff99ff>AOE rescue as magic based gives gaurds an option completly different then other fighters since they would be the only fighter w 2 forms of resists."</FONT></EM>  Do you mean two forms of resist checks against taunts, or do you mean two different kinds of resists to their character (fire and magic)?  Engrish.</FONT>  </SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:50 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Gungo]

<P>well i rather not go thru the frustration of redoign a post with the plethora of other work i do here.</P> <P>explain to me an example when an offensive stun/stilfe proc is bad to have? and i wasn't referring to posien potions i was referring to the offensive stance being able to stack w wpn procs which you claimed it would have stackign issues which it DOES NOT.</P> <P>Nope i was not contradictory wards DO stack. (btw warden/furies dont have wards). Hey you have your opinion if you don't liek the opion of a "ward" that fine call it what ever you want call it "super shield damage absorbtion 101" for all i care. It still serves the same purpose Absorbing damage for the group OR for the guard, hence a group Protection type spell. Isn't that the guards "Unsung Hero" ability?</P> <P>Fact is prynn as i pointed out many times you are wrong, and if you didn't intend to be wrong your posts are based on false and misleading statemenets.</P>

[Gungo]

<DIV>Again, more edits from the "I never edit guy"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never said i didn't edit i said i rarely edit before someone responds.<BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote: <P><FONT color=#ff0000>"No, it won't, because offensive stance isn't damage based, it's speed based.  So increase the haste on offensive stance would be a more apropos description, but you play a Guardian so you know this already.  teehee</FONT></P> <P>thats your direct qoute your wrong again YOU DID SAY IT WAS SPEED BASED. and adding damage to each hit will increase DPS its simple math really i guess your math is about as good as your reading comprehension huh?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Where did I say it was<U><STRONG> ONLY</STRONG> </U>speed based Gungo? </FONT>I see you left out your qoute since it completely contradicts your statement you said IT IS NOT DAMAGE BASED IT IS SPEED BASED. once again you are WRONG.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Rescue is not an ability to give resists, it's an emergency ability to regain aggro from an encounter.  It doesn't work, and to make it an AOE rescue with a magic resist is defeating the pupose of the spell in the first place.  Again, you don't understand the mechanics of Guardians so you don't know this.</FONT>  </P> <P>Wrong again direct qoute from you. You somehow thought i meant rescue was ment to give resist. You completely misunderstood. Were i said make another AOE taunt that was magic based. One can only presume you had no idea taunts are mental based resists. Its because you lack any form of comprehension. TanR got the point as did many other posters, but don't worry in your case ignorance truly is bliss.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ff6600>WHAT IN BLOODY HELL DOES RESCUE HAVE TO DO WITH A TAUNT?  I know it looks like a taunt, and I know it might smell like a taunt, but it's an ability, not a taunt.  God you kill me.  And that's not what you said, you said <FONT color=#ff99ff>"</FONT><EM><FONT color=#ff99ff>Taunts have always been particularly useless in solo play other then to finish an HO</FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000>(Editor note:  even though they had a stifle).</FONT> <FONT color=#ff99ff>AOE rescue as magic based gives gaurds an option completly different then other fighters since they would be the only fighter w 2 forms of resists."</FONT></EM>  Do you mean two forms of resist checks against taunts, or do you mean two different kinds of resists to their character (fire and magic)?  Engrish.</FONT>  Haha ok all taunts are considered combat abilities. TAUNTS ADD HATE, rescue is an emergency TAUNT. god i can't beilive i have to explain this to a fighter. See the probelm here is you don;t understand me because you don;t play the game and have no idea what is going on. Whereas peopel like TanR actually play and understand the game. I will make it as clear as i can for you since you have this comprehension problem.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>ALL FIGHTER TAUNTS ARE MENTAL BASED. ALL TAUNTS ARE MENTAL BASED</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>GIVE GUARDS AN EXTRA MAGIC BASED AOE RESCUE</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>GUARDS NOW HAVE AOE MENTAL BASED TAUNT AND AOE RESCUE MAGIC BASED TAUNT </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>HENCE GUARDS NOW HAVE 2 FORMS OF RESISTS ON TAUNTS.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Do you speak engrish now?</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>11-03-2005</FONT></SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:50 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>well i rather not go thru the frustration of redoign a post with the plethora of other work i do here.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>I am sure.</FONT></P> <P>explain to me an example when an offensive stun/stilfe proc is bad to have? and i wasn't referring to posien potions i was referring to the offensive stance being able to stack w wpn procs which you claimed it would have stackign issues which it DOES NOT.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>PvP.</FONT></P> <P>Nope i was not contradictory wards DO stack. (btw warden/furies dont have wards). Hey you have your opinion if you don't liek the opion of a "ward" that fine call it what ever you want call it "super shield damage absorbtion 101" for all i care. It still serves the same purpose Absorbing damage for the group OR for the guard, hence a group Protection type spell. Isn't that the guards "Unsung Hero" ability?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Well, I don't play a warden or a fury, a priest, or a scout, beserker or paladin, sk, or monk or bruiser, so I don't claim to know what other people have (nor do I spew on their forums).  It was merely embellishment to make a point.  Protection abilities.  a)  They don't work.   b)  If you are soloing, protection abilites do zero good.  c)  If you are doing what you are supposed to do as a tank in a group people don't need protection abilities.  d) before LU13, I used my protection abilities zero times.  etc. etc. etc.</FONT>  </P> <P>Fact is prynn as i pointed out many times you are wrong, and if you didn't intend to be wrong your posts are based on false and misleading statemenets.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>I am sure that in Fantasy Land, the trees are made of chocolate and the streets are lined in butterscotch.  A land where Gungo is the king and dances around with sugar plum fairies and people fill their bellies with marshmallow fluff.</FONT>  </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Pry]

<DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>ALL FIGHTER TAUNTS ARE MENTAL BASED. ALL TAUNTS ARE MENTAL BASED</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ff0000>Who cares?  I never disputed that at all, I can read spell descriptions just as well as you can (probably better).  I can't believe I have to explain things to a fighter, although you aren't a guardian so it's normal I guess.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>GIVE GUARDS AN EXTRA MAGIC BASED AOE RESCUE</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ff0000>No, this idea sucks horribly because it only will work on linked encounters and only within a certain range and will be so situational it will be ineffectual.</FONT>  </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>GUARDS NOW HAVE AOE MENTAL BASED TAUNT AND AOE RESCUE MAGIC BASED TAUNT </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ff0000>Yay?</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>HENCE GUARDS NOW HAVE 2 FORMS OF RESISTS ON TAUNTS.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ff0000>Yay?</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Do you speak engrish now?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ff0000>An infinite amount better than you, and here's an edit for you so you don't have to feel bad.</FONT></SPAN></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Prynn on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:18 PM</span>

[Gungo]

<DIV> <P>well i rather not go thru the frustration of redoign a post with the plethora of other work i do here.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>I am sure.</FONT></P> <P>explain to me an example when an offensive stun/stilfe proc is bad to have? and i wasn't referring to posien potions i was referring to the offensive stance being able to stack w wpn procs which you claimed it would have stackign issues which it DOES NOT.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>PvP.</FONT> HA you are telling me stunning and stifling is bad to do during PVP. Do you even know what stuns and stilfes do? Seriously those are the best skills to have during PVP. You are completely off your rocker.</P> <P>Nope i was not contradictory wards DO stack. (btw warden/furies dont have wards). Hey you have your opinion if you don't liek the opion of a "ward" that fine call it what ever you want call it "super shield damage absorbtion 101" for all i care. It still serves the same purpose Absorbing damage for the group OR for the guard, hence a group Protection type spell. Isn't that the guards "Unsung Hero" ability?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Well, I don't play a warden or a fury, a priest, or a scout, beserker or paladin, sk, or monk or bruiser, so I don't claim to know what other people have (nor do I spew on their forums).  It was merely embellishment to make a point.  Protection abilities.  a)  They don't work.   b)  If you are soloing, protection abilites do zero good.  c)  If you are doing what you are supposed to do as a tank in a group people don't need protection abilities.  d) before LU13, I used my protection abilities zero times.  etc. etc. etc.</FONT>  But while embelllishing them you sure do pretend to act like you know what you are talking about in fact i thought you have posted on the fury forums before? Um einsteind a group ward does work soloing =P. BUT the ward only applies to the caster since no one else in group can absorb the damage. so it does help soloing. And as a group ward it can help you tank by absorbing your damage, but if you did have a mishap it can be used as a group protection ability as well by absorbing your groups damage. And protection abilites do work wether you care to use them or not has nothign to do with this debate. the fact is The devs are looking into making protection abilites more useful.</P> <P>Fact is prynn as i pointed out many times you are wrong, and if you didn't intend to be wrong your posts are based on false and misleading statemenets.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>I am sure that in Fantasy Land, the trees are made of chocolate and the streets are lined in butterscotch.  A land where Gungo is the king and dances around with sugar plum fairies and people fill their bellies with marshmallow fluff.</FONT>  Prynn wrote: Hi Jack! </P> <BR></DIV>

[Gungo]

<DIV> <DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>ALL FIGHTER TAUNTS ARE MENTAL BASED. ALL TAUNTS ARE MENTAL BASED</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ff0000>Who cares?  I never disputed that at all, I can read spell descriptions just as well as you can (probably better).  I can't believe I have to explain things to a fighter, although you aren't a guardian so it's normal I guess. </FONT>More proof you have no idea whats going on. The resist type is not on the spell description. But i am a gaurd now :smileyvery-happy:</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>GIVE GUARDS AN EXTRA MAGIC BASED AOE RESCUE</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ff0000>No, this idea sucks horribly because it only will work on linked encounters and only within a certain range and will be so situational it will be ineffectual.</FONT> Um all taunts are linked encounters HTL offers gaurds way to maintain agro on multiple encounters. In fact by giving guards another aoe taunt gives guards an additional way to lock down another encounter. If anything your observation supports addign another AoE taunt to gaurds.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>GUARDS NOW HAVE AOE MENTAL BASED TAUNT AND AOE RESCUE MAGIC BASED TAUNT </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ff0000>Yay? </FONT>< "lack of response due to slow brain activity."</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>HENCE GUARDS NOW HAVE 2 FORMS OF RESISTS ON TAUNTS.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ff0000>Yay? </FONT>< "brain still trying to comprehend"</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Do you speak engrish now?</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT color=#ff0000>An infinite amount better than you, and here's an edit for you so you don't have to feel bad. </FONT>< thought came can't win argument lets flame the poster that worked the last 200 posts i did!</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:30 PM</span>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>well i rather not go thru the frustration of redoign a post with the plethora of other work i do here.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>I am sure.</FONT></P> <P>explain to me an example when an offensive stun/stilfe proc is bad to have? and i wasn't referring to posien potions i was referring to the offensive stance being able to stack w wpn procs which you claimed it would have stackign issues which it DOES NOT.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>PvP.</FONT> HA you are telling me stunning and stifling is bad to do during PVP. Do you even know what stuns and stilfes do? Seriously those are the best skills to have during PVP. You are completely off your rocker.</P> <P>Nope i was not contradictory wards DO stack. (btw warden/furies dont have wards). Hey you have your opinion if you don't liek the opion of a "ward" that fine call it what ever you want call it "super shield damage absorbtion 101" for all i care. It still serves the same purpose Absorbing damage for the group OR for the guard, hence a group Protection type spell. Isn't that the guards "Unsung Hero" ability?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Well, I don't play a warden or a fury, a priest, or a scout, beserker or paladin, sk, or monk or bruiser, so I don't claim to know what other people have (nor do I spew on their forums).  It was merely embellishment to make a point.  Protection abilities.  a)  They don't work.   b)  If you are soloing, protection abilites do zero good.  c)  If you are doing what you are supposed to do as a tank in a group people don't need protection abilities.  d) before LU13, I used my protection abilities zero times.  etc. etc. etc.</FONT>  But while embelllishing them you sure do pretend to act like you know what you are talking about in fact i thought you have posted on the fury forums before? Um einsteind a group ward does work soloing =P. BUT the ward only applies to the caster since no one else in group can absorb the damage. so it does help soloing. And as a group ward it can help you tank by absorbing your damage, but if you did have a mishap it can be used as a group protection ability as well by absorbing your groups damage. And protection abilites do work wether you care to use them or not has nothign to do with this debate. the fact is The devs are looking into making protection abilites more useful.</P> <P>Fact is prynn as i pointed out many times you are wrong, and if you didn't intend to be wrong your posts are based on false and misleading statemenets.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>I am sure that in Fantasy Land, the trees are made of chocolate and the streets are lined in butterscotch.  A land where Gungo is the king and dances around with sugar plum fairies and people fill their bellies with marshmallow fluff.</FONT>  Prynn wrote: Hi Jack! </P> <BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah, here's my one and only post on the Fury forums, way back almost 1 year ago to the day:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=17&message.id=2916" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=17&message.id=2916</A></P> <P>Look if you want to sit here and argue well into the night I am game.  Let's say I am completely wrong and off my rocker like you say.  Let's say that they institute the (quite insane) changes you and your cronies in your guild ask to implement.  It won't matter because I am not going to play that game and people (besides me)  will leave permanently.  So really I don't care.  </P> <P>I want reasonable fixes to our Guardian class, and I don't think it involves adding bells and whistles to broken abilities.  I want a one-stance, Armor Class fighter that can wear heavy armor and utilize a kite shield.  If I want a botarded Gungo character, I will play my pretty ponies on-line. </P> <P>Let's say that I am right and you are off your rocker and wrong.  By not implementing the changes you asked for nothing changes and things are the same.  Which I find more appealing than procs on offensive stances, or wards on guardian sphere.  Just plain silly, really.  </P> <P>All of this doesn't take away from the fact that I think the only reason you post here is because you are in a jealous rage that Guardians were overpowered for 10 months and you want to ensure that they stay that way.  A lot of people agree with me.  A lot of people don't want you to post here so much that Raijinn had to make a post concerning you (you remember the one where he called you Gumbo?).  I just wonder when you're gonna take the hint.  </P>

[Gungo]

<P>Yup and that same post raijann said i am a very constructive poster :smileyhappy: I even have gaurds thanking me on this very board for posting I had ideas and questions responded to directly by Devs. What again did you ever do useful?</P> <P>I finally figured out your deal prynn</P> <P>the game you are looking for is that way. Please go there and harrass others</P> <P><<< World of Warcraft </P> <DIV>Btw your claim that i was jealous of guards prerevamp is wrong i never poster prior to LU13 regarding gaurds tanking and i have been playing since release. Good try prynn but once again you make an assumption that makes an Azz of U.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>11-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:41 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>11-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:43 PM</span>

[Pry]

<P>Well, glad we cleared that all up, Gimpor.  </P> <P>I wil go to WoW,  My Pretty Ponies Online is this way >>>>></P> <P>And never the twain shall meet.  </P> <P>If I'm an [Removed for Content] in your eyes, I am a hero in others so either way, I am = win.  </P>

[Gungo]

<P>**REMOVED FLAME**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:56 AM</span>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>Yup all cleared i am useful you are not.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Useful to what?  LOL.  You are as useful as a doorknob on a toilet seat.</FONT>  </P> <P>You will leave eq2 and play WoW with the other kiddies</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>The same kiddies you go to Grammar School with?  *claps happily* Hurray!</FONT>  </P> <P>I will play EQ2 and have fun w my guild</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Boy do I feel sorry for them.</FONT>  </P> <P>But i don't think your an [Removed for Content] prynn. Truly i think you just have low self esteem, probably a rocky marriage. You seem very angry. And just need attention. I call you a Drama queen but its in jest. I do feel bad for ya and wish you the best in WoW. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Haha.  Believe me, if you knew me at all you would be surprised.  I don't need attention at all.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>And no I am not married so you can stop asking me out.  </FONT> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gungo]

Naw i wouldn't ask you out prynn. Girls that stalk me scare me.

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> craized warrior wrote:<BR> <DIV>if i wanted to play a DPS fighter class i would have chosen a monk</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Why would <EM>anyone</EM> play a DPS fighter when there are 12 entire classes designed to outdamage us.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Gaige , not a very well thought out post is it ?  Many of your brethren wanted to play a fighter that could Tank and DPS , so they chose a monk.</P> <P>Yes i agree , if they wanted to be PURE DPS , they would not have chosen a monk.  But if you read what Craized said , he says DPS Fighter.</P> <P>If a fighter class that also had DPS could only DPS and not tank , again your statement would be valid , but both you and I know that Monks can tank and did tank Pre LU13 as well.</P> <P>I have read many posts in the Monk forums where Monks state that they want to be able to DPS and Tank.  That is what Craized was referring to.</P> <P>The reason i chose my monk was because we were starting a guild group of alts and we already had a Guard as MT and i wanted to be the off tank (since main is already guard  anyway) so i decided on Monk. (well i actually wanted to be a brusier , but since i am a loyal Qeynos citizen , i had no option but to go Monk)</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Drulak wrote: <P>Gaige , not a very well thought out post is it ?  Many of your brethren wanted to play a fighter that could Tank and DPS , so they chose a monk.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Its a very well thought out post.  No one who really thought about it would pick a fighter to DPS, period.</DIV>

[Kriddle Kraddle]

<P>I'm sorry Gaige but you are wrong there. Sometimes I agree with your posts but other times such as this one I have to disagree. Shadow Knights chose that so they could tank and do more damage via spells, Paladin chose that to tank and heal themselves or others, Berserker to tank and do more DPS, each and every fighter class had a specific role and monks fell into the greater DPS for less tanking role. Guardians role was supposed to be tank plus protect the group but right now that is broken. If every fighter class is supposed to tank and DPS the same then why have 6 of them?</P> <P>We can even go back to when we were level 10 and chose to go brawler, crusader or warrior. Then again it split at lvl 20 for a more definative role. If you read what the NPC said it tells you the difference in the classes. Brawlers were geared towards DPS.</P> <P>If you want every fighter class to be the same then lets just remove all of them and make everyone a fighter. Also not to mention bruisers have special attacks from BEHIND the mob. How is this a tank ability? Sounds pretty DPS to me.</P> <p>Message Edited by Kriddle Kraddle on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:56 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<P>No where did I ever state that all fighters should DPS the same, we shouldn't.</P> <P>But saying that monks/bruisers picked their role to DPS knowing full well that 50% of the classes can out damage them is just silly.</P>

[Kriddle Kraddle]

<DIV>So we shouldnt DPS the same but we should tank the same? Why did you chose fighter, brawler, and finally monk? What was your reason behind each choice?</DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>I like the martial arts style the best, and was never a fan of shield/sword and armor type fighters.</P> <P>DPS descrepancies can be made up with utility imho.  But if all else fails make the gaps in DPS small and make the gaps in tanking small.  /shrug</P> <P>You simply can't say "okay a monk is 80% dps and 20% tank" when you have 12 classes than can out dps them and are trying to get 4 classes to out tank them.  They then become worthless, which I will not stand for.</P>

[Greyto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>I like the martial arts style the best, and was never a fan of shield/sword and armor type fighters.</P> <P>DPS descrepancies can be made up with utility imho.  But if all else fails make the gaps in DPS small and make the gaps in tanking small.  /shrug</P> <P>You simply can't say "okay a monk is 80% dps and 20% tank" when you have 12 classes than can out dps them and are trying to get 4 classes to out tank them.  They then become worthless, which I will not stand for.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>My guardian wonders why he should care what Gaige would "stand" for.</P> <P>My guardian thinks "Sinking Sands" was a good name for EQ2's new zone. He think it says a lot about where this game is heading.</P>

[ReviloTX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>I like the martial arts style the best, and was never a fan of shield/sword and armor type fighters.</P> <P>DPS descrepancies can be made up with utility imho.  But if all else fails make the gaps in DPS small and make the gaps in tanking small.  /shrug</P> <P>You simply can't say "okay a monk is 80% dps and 20% tank" when you have 12 classes than can out dps them and are trying to get 4 classes to out tank them.  They then become worthless, which I will not stand for.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>One of the few posts  you've made that I more or less agree with.  I think the real problem is that we are both assuming the other is taking the position of the extreme.  You think I want us to be the hands down uber best tank, and I think you want to tank exactly the same as us with added benefit of dps and utility.  In reality, if the differences are slight enough not to make an impact on who people choose as a group MT, I think we could both be happy about it.</P> <P>The part about making up DPS with utility I agree with, however currently you have both superior DPS and utility.  If they are going to close the DPS gap by giving us utility, they are going to have to give us some pretty stellar utility.</P><p>Message Edited by ReviloTX on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:41 AM</span>

[Kriddle Kraddle]

<DIV>Well going down your points they arent very valid. You say DPS descrepancies can be made up with utility so monks have DPS, Utility, and can tank. You say make the gaps in DPS small and tank small yet right now you can tank just as good but DPS better than most other fighters. Now for the 80% dps 20% tank thing I never said, but if you look at your DPS and tanking compaired to the other fighters that might be accurate. Out of 6 fighters your DPS is greater than 4 of them yet your tanking is equal to or greater than all of them. Now if you want to compare to the other 23 classes your DPS is greater than 10 of them, equal to about 3, and less than 10. Your tanking is better than 18 and at least equal to the other 5.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The whole things with guardians is give us something we can say okay that makes up for the lack of DPS or that makes up for the lack of utility. Right now we dont have that and everytime we turn around you are there saying how we are whining. Its getting really old.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kriddle Kraddle on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:49 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> ReviloTX wrote: <P>One of the few posts  you've made that I more or less agree with.  I think the real problem is that we are both assuming the other is taking the position of the extreme.  You think I want us to be the hands down uber best tank, and I think you want to tank exactly the same as us with added benefit of dps and utility.  In reality, if the differences are slight enough not to make an impact on who people choose as a group MT, I think we could both be happy about it.</P> <P>The part about making up DPS with utility I agree with, however currently you have both superior DPS and utility.  If they are going to close the DPS gap by giving us utility, they are going to have to give us some pretty stellar utility.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, I think you are starting to see where I am coming from now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[craized warrior]

<P>they arent going to do that tho are they? </P> <P>they are going to swap around some of our buffs, give us as little as possible and hope we shut up.</P> <P>as usual they havent really thought things through....</P>