Changes I would like to see made to the Guardian class.

craized warrior · 11-01-2005, 10:23 PM

Unresistable or very hard to resist Taunts - mobs resisting taunts is silly IMO, agro is hard enough to keep against big DPS classes like wizzies and swashbucklers without the high chance that my taunts are going to be resisted.

More Avoidance - i would like to have my avoidance raised so that it is at least equal to around 75% of what a monk/bruiser can achieve with the same gear. i dont want monks to have to be changed to do this, id just like it changed so that guardians (and indeed zerkers, pallies and SK's) are able to achieve higher avoidance levels so that the likes of stuns etc have less chance to land, therefore making it easier to keep agro.

More DPS - guardians are not and i should hope never will be a DPS class, however more DPS makes it easier to keep agro.

i dont require a large boost to DPS just enough to make it easier to keep agro, around 20-30% increase prehaps, and preferably ability based as opposed to melee based as i believe our melee based DPS is fine.

These i believe are perhaps the most important changes us as guardians are crying out for, im sure people could point out some more but i would be perfectly happy if these changes were made.

Message Edited by craized warrior on 11-01-2005 10:26 AM

Gaige · 11-02-2005, 02:35 AM

craized warrior wrote:

More Avoidance - i would like to have my avoidance raised so that it is at least equal to around 75% of what a monk/bruiser can achieve with the same gear. i dont want monks to have to be changed to do this, id just like it changed so that guardians (and indeed zerkers, pallies and SK's) are able to achieve higher avoidance levels so that the likes of stuns etc have less chance to land, therefore making it easier to keep agro.

While at the same time raising brawler mitigation to at least 75% of that of a warrior. Right?

Krooner · 11-02-2005, 02:40 AM

Perhaps the solution to the stuns and styfles lies along with SOE's current thinking.

When in a certain defensive stance

Warrior class.... immune to physically based stuns ....Guardian HTL immune to knockbacks.

Brawler immune to magical based stuns

Crusader immune to desease / poison based stunns

I only put the secondary one there for the Guardian because were suppose to be the premo defense and knockbacks are physical. I leave the door open for other classes to add a secondary effect as well.

Raahl · 11-02-2005, 02:49 AM

Gaige wrote:

craized warrior wrote:

More Avoidance - i would like to have my avoidance raised so that it is at least equal to around 75% of what a monk/bruiser can achieve with the same gear. i dont want monks to have to be changed to do this, id just like it changed so that guardians (and indeed zerkers, pallies and SK's) are able to achieve higher avoidance levels so that the likes of stuns etc have less chance to land, therefore making it easier to keep agro.

While at the same time raising brawler mitigation to at least 75% of that of a warrior. Right?

Wouldn't that reduce the brawlers mitigation? SMILEY

Gaige · 11-02-2005, 12:09 PM

Nope. Mine buffed is normally around 2500. Raiding early Noah's was like 5000? Something like that.

Greyto · 11-02-2005, 12:20 PM

Gaige wrote:
Nope. Mine buffed is normally around 2500. Raiding early Noah's was like 5000? Something like that.

My guardian looted a water flask (4 of em) today SMILEY

Ladicav · 11-02-2005, 12:37 PM

craized warrior wrote:

Unresistable or very hard to resist Taunts - mobs resisting taunts is silly IMO, agro is hard enough to keep against big DPS classes like wizzies and swashbucklers without the high chance that my taunts are going to be resisted.

I would be happy with just this. This should be the Guardians domain, period. If we are meant to be unsung heroes and masters of agro management, prove it. Stop it with the stupid resists, and the AOE taunts that are not if some mobs in an encounter resist and other do not. Give us these tools to do it and make them reliable, not a push the button and pray the taunt sticks rubish we have now. Show me that Guardians are absolutely lock down 100% agro makers. Currently all fighters have good agro spells of some kind or another, what makes Guardians so much different in this regard? I still do not feel very unsung hero like in the agro game. We shouldn't need backup classes to make our hate generation more potent, it should already be, as part of our class definition/specialty. The backup classes should be used for the other fighters in the archetype, which would give Guardians the defining ability Moorgard claims we have.

Message Edited by Ladicav on 11-01-2005 11:39 PM

Message Edited by Ladicav on 11-01-2005 11:46 PM

TunaBoo · 11-02-2005, 12:56 PM

I got better gear then noah and I ain't got 5000 mita oustide 3 people all using a 30 second buff on me. 3064 unbuffed.

Message Edited by TunaBoo on 11-02-2005 01:56 AM

Skha · 11-02-2005, 06:55 PM

master POA = 400 something master priest buff = 500 something master def stance = 400 something legendary t6 potion = 240 You can't get 5k permanently maintainable EDIT oops forgot the conj buff = 200ish, but still not 5000

Message Edited by Skharr on 11-02-2005 05:58 AM

Drulak · 11-02-2005, 07:01 PM

Gaige wrote:
Nope. Mine buffed is normally around 2500. Raiding early Noah's was like 5000? Something like that.

I love the way that all Guardians are the same as Noah - according to Gaige.

Put it this way mate , you have more Miti than i do SMILEY and i have almost full set of cobalt. 2365 miti. Self Buffed

RafaelSmith · 11-02-2005, 07:10 PM

Drulak wrote:

Gaige wrote:Nope. Mine buffed is normally around 2500. Raiding early Noah's was like 5000? Something like that.

I love the way that all Guardians are the same as Noah - according to Gaige.

Put it this way mate , you have more Miti than i do and i have almost full set of cobalt. 2365 miti. Self Buffed

Think currently at level 56 i have around 2600 mit w/o any buffs...With DEF Stance its just shy of 3k. I think when grouped with my Fury and Defiler friends using every DEF buff we have I can get close 5k for a few seconds. Of course during that tiem the Fury is stunned, and I am rooted like 3 different ways =P But for normal everyday stuff 2.5-3k seems to be about it.

Gaige · 11-02-2005, 09:29 PM

Drulak wrote:

Put it this way mate , you have more Miti than i do and i have almost full set of cobalt. 2365 miti. Self Buffed

That's not self-buffed, mine was group buffed with my 30 second mit buffs. Yeah Noah's was probably around 4500ish then, I wasn't really paying attention I was tired.

Shizzirri · 11-02-2005, 09:41 PM

TunaBoo wrote:
I got better gear then noah and I ain't got 5000 mita oustide 3 people all using a 30 second buff on me. 3064 unbuffed.

Message Edited by TunaBoo on 11-02-2005 01:56 AM

Nice we have a Gaige flamefest and a my [Removed for Content] is bigger than yours all in the same thread nice!

I only have one piece of fabled and I can blow 5k out of the water, too bad it means nothing with the cap

craized warrior · 11-02-2005, 10:09 PM

"While at the same time raising brawler mitigation to at least 75% of that of a warrior. Right?"

No, like i said, i dont want monks changing at all, you guys are already very happy with the way your class is, why would you want to change?

Gaige · 11-02-2005, 10:14 PM

craized warrior wrote:

No, like i said, i dont want monks changing at all, you guys are already very happy with the way your class is, why would you want to change?

Because, if they increase your avoidance they need to increase our mitigation. You are not an avoidance class.

Gungo · 11-02-2005, 10:19 PM

yeah katriniti,

People early on were asking for more mitgation to fix guardians i kept saying more mitgation will do nothing with the 80% cap in place all it would do is make upgrading armour meaningless when you are already at the cap. Yet peopel still complain about mitgation. funny though there is some very good ideas to actually fix guards, but people constinely bicker saying they don't want them and only want more mitigation and/or avodiance. Those are not the 2 only numbers that effect tanking. The fact is pure tanking is relatively equal. DPS in the fighter tree has too broad of a gap. It was stated in that DPS chart made by moorgard that a gaurd focusing on dps would surpass a brawler who focused on tanking that is not the case. Guards also suffer from a lack of useful utility and general lack of immersion or a role with your character.

BTW crazed warrior our tanking is balanced the gap in utility and dps is the true issue. Guards have no probelm tanking raid content or other content compared to other fighters. (other then the few mobs who ressit taunts which all fighters have since all fighter taunts are now mental based)

Message Edited by Gungo on 11-02-2005 09:22 AM

Krooner · 11-02-2005, 10:21 PM

Gaige wrote:

Because, if they increase your avoidance they need to increase our mitigation. You are not an avoidance class.

Sorry partner but I have to scatch this itch.

ALL other fighters are offensive based and do not need a defensive spells.

makes about as much sense.

I do not think adding more avoidance to us is the solution either. Plate wearing individuals should be more resistant to physically based stuns and such. Bralwers should and seem to be more resistant to magical and mental based stuns. If you take the stuns down with this in mind then our DPS goes up and our survivability goes up as well.. ALL of ours.

Gungo · 11-02-2005, 10:35 PM

Um warbird actually monks paladins and gaurds are the defensive fighters. Only in your world is gaurds the only defensive fighter.

and i actually i feel crusaders should be the magic based fighters, brawlers should be the dps based fighters, and warriors should have the best and most versatile group buffs, taunts, debuffs.

Krooner · 11-02-2005, 10:37 PM

Gungo

Nope... Not my opinion. Im refereing to that famous Moorguard line where he goes on about us being the "defensive fighter"

Soooooo dont dispute it with me. Im just going along with Stevie on this to point out how absurd the notion is.

Pry · 11-02-2005, 10:46 PM

Gungo wrote:

Um warbird actually monks paladins and gaurds are the defensive fighters. Only in your world is gaurds the only defensive fighter.

and i actually i feel crusaders should be the magic based fighters, brawlers should be the dps based fighters, and warriors should have the best and most versatile group buffs, taunts, debuffs.

Umm, isn't this the way it was before LU13?

Gungo · 11-02-2005, 11:26 PM

yup Prynn it was cept gaurds were also the best at tanking damage by decent margin. Now that all fighters are tanking equally they need to work on your utility.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______

Fact after LU 13 no class is required anymore. But Guards do tank as well as other fighters. Many other guards have said you do. Fact is guards are still the preferred MT in raids becuase they tank better and hold agro better.

LU 13 didnt break guards they made it so all fighters can tank equally

Ask yourself after revamp is there any class so important now that you can't do a raid w/o them. That you can't group w/o them. The answer is no any tank can tank any healer can heal. Any caster/scout can dps. That in itself is balanced

Many gaurds have said it best. That fighters are unbalanced because brawlers have more dps and crusaders have more utility. Guards need better utility and Increased DPS. Thats the onyl thing unbalanced with fighters atm.

It was posted prior by the devs that a guardian who focues more on offense woudl do mroe dps then a brawler who focused on defense. That is not the case currently on live.

DPS does not neccesarily have to equal damage on combat arts it cna be acheived thru buffs or debuffs. Soem classes are inherently self buff oreinted some are group buff oriented. bards dont have alot of direct dps but they add alot of damage to the group via buffs and debuffs they are an example of a group orineted class. Many brawler skills are self oreinted in fact both monk and bruser have 1 group spell line.

This is a nice list of fixes on this board that does not turn gaurds into the best tank. I have not came up with these ideas but many were brought up by gaurds and non gaurds. I am playing a guard more often as well (lvl54+), but these are the ideas/changes i would like seen done.

1) AoE rescue line - (magic resist based) like old rescue ~900-1000hate and 1 agro position usable once every 5 min. Magic based if guards current AOE taunt is mental based. That gives guards 2 resist types for taunts.

2) Change intervene lines for guards to equal 100% or less total damage taken. Change Guardian sphere into A Group regenerating Ward - It would stop 1 or 2 hits and slowly regenerate. ~2,500. (althought guards should have an entire line dedicated to a group ward for all levels)

3) Remove shield damage from "Tower of Stone", (If they want also add a new Tower of stone type line that has a % chance to block AOE's on group but damages shields 10-20% based on quality of spell.)

4) Do more damage by possibly reducing timers on some combat arts and adding a few Debuffs to the mob's resistance to slashing/crushing and piercing (thereby increasing the damage done by the Guardian and group)

5) Introduce a % stun resist to Hold the Line. Allow HTL to proc thru wards.

6) increase the effectiveness of offensive stance by adding a small % to proc a stun or stifle as well as increased offensive damage.

I would also like to see an 'all or nothing approach to group taunts'. Either it succeeds with all mobs, or fails with all mobs. That way you can recast it, instead of currently maybe aggroing 1 out of 5 and having to wait to recast your AOE taunt. or they can change it to have the faster recast if any mobs resists instead of the full recast if any succeed.

Finally SoE should explain what shield factor actual does since they revamped it so much. If shield factor effects avodiance then it would give a logical comparison between sheilds tiers/types. If both kite and tower give a base 10% block, shield factor should add to avodiance or at minimal spell resist or mitgation therefor a shield with a shield factor of 700 should give a set increase and a shiedl factor of 900 a higher increase. Even if it is minimal any sort of comparison and upgrade will be recommended.

Alot of the above was posted by nemi for a bit and other gaurds and non gaurds. Those sort of utility will help gaurds solo a ton better, group alot better, and increase thier tanking while also allowing for a more skillful playing.

Message Edited by Gungo on 11-02-2005 10:27 AM

Pry · 11-02-2005, 11:31 PM

Gungo wrote:

Ask yourself after revamp is there any class so important now that you can't do a raid w/o them. That you can't group w/o them. The answer is no any tank can tank any healer can heal. Any caster/scout can dps. That in itself is balanced

Message Edited by Gungo on 11-02-200510:27 AM

I know you have said this umpteenth times, but it was true before LU13 as well as after it. I know you think that there *MUST* have been a Guardian on raids (I have been one many without a single Guardian), and there *MUST* be a healer (I have had all melee groups and all healer groups), so this statement holds no water.

And please fix your posts so they don't keep stretching out the forum, it's annoying.

Shizzirri · 11-02-2005, 11:33 PM

Gungo wrote:

1) AoE rescue line - (magic resist based) like old rescue ~900-1000hate and 1 agro position usable once every 5 min. Magic based if guards current AOE taunt is mental based. That gives guards 2 resist types for taunts.

2) Change intervene lines for guards to equal 100% or less total damage taken. Change Guardian sphere into A Group regenerating Ward - It would stop 1 or 2 hits and slowly regenerate. ~2,500. (althought guards should have an entire line dedicated to a group ward for all levels)

3) Remove shield damage from "Tower of Stone", (If they want also add a new Tower of stone type line that has a % chance to block AOE's on group but damages shields 10-20% based on quality of spell.)

4) Do more damage by possibly reducing timers on some combat arts and adding a few Debuffs to the mob's resistance to slashing/crushing and piercing (thereby increasing the damage done by the Guardian and group)

5) Introduce a % stun resist to Hold the Line. Allow HTL to proc thru wards.

6) increase the effectiveness of offensive stance by adding a small % to proc a stun or stifle as well as increased offensive damage.

I would also like to see an 'all or nothing approach to group taunts'. Either it succeeds with all mobs, or fails with all mobs. That way you can recast it, instead of currently maybe aggroing 1 out of 5 and having to wait to recast your AOE taunt. or they can change it to have the faster recast if any mobs resists instead of the full recast if any succeed.

Finally SoE should explain what shield factor actual does since they revamped it so much. If shield factor effects avodiance then it would give a logical comparison between sheilds tiers/types. If both kite and tower give a base 10% block, shield factor should add to avodiance or at minimal spell resist or mitgation therefor a shield with a shield factor of 700 should give a set increase and a shiedl factor of 900 a higher increase. Even if it is minimal any sort of comparison and upgrade will be recommended.

Message Edited by Gungo on 11-02-2005 10:27 AM

Yeah these are actually realistic potential changes to guardians, however I don't feel taunts should be resisted, they should work differently depending on the color con of the mob (weaker on stronger mobs / maybe resisted on reds - stronger on greens greys) meaning of you taunt an orange mob and the hate value is 600-800 the taunt should only generate 600-625 or so hate. A raid shouldn't wipe because of one resisted taunt on incoming (and yes you will wipe or come close with the way auto aggro is working now).

Krooner · 11-02-2005, 11:43 PM

Gungo:

A lot of good yet rehashed info in that post. Unfortunatly there is also a lot of missinformation.

"LU 13 didnt break guards they made it so all fighters can tank equally"

This is a matter of opinion. If you look at what was intended by SOE to have happen then yeah you could say that. If you look at what the player base and raiding guilds are doing with guards your dead wrong.

I took a long look at the raiding guilds on my server. Ones I knew had a lot of Guardians. What I saw was that they now had 4 or 5 monks sks and zerks for every one guardian. You look at the guardians play time and off line for X amount of days. WHAT SOE would like to have happen and what is actually happening is two different things.

Dont ask ME to prove it... prove me wrong.

Secondly. Bards do have some rather nice DPS attacks. The dirge ones are more DOT oriented such as the Scream of Death. Do they do 10K instantly NO. SOD will do close to 5K every minute at Ad3 with debuffs.

In a nut shell SOE has failed to realize that you cant balance fighters in just tanking you have to balance them across the board or not at all.

If you dont then the WHOLE fighter class is unbalanced. Giage and other have said it. If there is a best no one will want to play the worst.

Skha · 11-03-2005, 12:03 AM

Raahl wrote:

Gaige wrote:

craized warrior wrote:

More Avoidance - i would like to have my avoidance raised so that it is at least equal to around 75% of what a monk/bruiser can achieve with the same gear. i dont want monks to have to be changed to do this, id just like it changed so that guardians (and indeed zerkers, pallies and SK's) are able to achieve higher avoidance levels so that the likes of stuns etc have less chance to land, therefore making it easier to keep agro.

While at the same time raising brawler mitigation to at least 75% of that of a warrior. Right?

Wouldn't that reduce the brawlers mitigation?

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you mean my bruiser couldnt hit 8k mit anymore?!?! /cry

Gungo · 11-03-2005, 12:18 AM

Prynn worte :

I know you have said this umpteenth times, but it was true before LU13 as well as after it. I know you think that there *MUST* have been a Guardian on raids (I have been one many without a single Guardian), and there *MUST* be a healer (I have had all melee groups and all healer groups), so this statement holds no water.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________

Actually Prynn you are wrong please provide the links were a non guard has tanked ICY DIG, SoTL, Brutal acts, Nagalik, And kra'thunk (version 3.2 Final)

Those are just a few raids i cna think of that i have never heard of anyone but gaurds tanking. Many more raids that didn't just require a gaurd or required a tricked out fabled crusader, and like 2-3 raids a brawler could tank.

Message Edited by Gungo on 11-02-2005 11:34 AM

craized warrior · 11-03-2005, 12:23 AM

"Because, if they increase your avoidance they need to increase our mitigation. You are not an avoidance class."

i really dont care whether we are an "avoidance class" or not, i chose guardian because i wanted to be a tank, if i wanted to play a DPS fighter class i would have chosen a monk, now that monks tank as well as us but also completely outstrip us DPS wise, i believe the best course is to make us the better tanks again to balance the classes. improving our avoidance will improve our tanking ability.

they improved monks, now we want them to improve guards/zerkers/plate classes. you should be happy that your class has been improved instead of trying your hardest to keep us guardians in the dirt. you didnt see any guardians constantly pushing to have our DPS raised to monk levels before all the class changes happened...

Message Edited by craized warrior on 11-02-2005 11:24 AM

Gungo · 11-03-2005, 12:30 AM

Consider also raising avoidance will make agro harder... since avoid means less HTL procs

Krooner · 11-03-2005, 12:30 AM

Oh COME ONE Gungo.

What part of the concept escapes you.

I DONT KNOW OF ANY SO IT MUST HAVE BEEN IMPOSSIBLE = FALSE STATEMENT UNPROVABLE STATEMENT

I dont know who origionally posted that idiotic statement but its not up to us to prove it false. ITS up to you and everyone that believes it to prove it true.

Soo I issue you the same challenge. Prove to me that there was not one non guardian tank that COULD tank those mobs.

Going back through all the logs and looking at every single raid encounter does not validate it.

The only way to prove it would be to get in a magical time machine and go back 3 months and try every conceivable combination of groups without guardians.

IF you want to really REALLY be a constructive member of the guardian discussions then drop this notion here and now.

I will grant you this statement to be more true.

Prior to LU13 a raid was much more likely to succede with a guardian to main tank then other classes.

Or even this one

Prior to LU13 There want enough non guardians MT for raid mobs.

Message Edited by Warbird1 on 11-02-2005 11:36 AM

DARN Crappy keyboard at work.

Message Edited by Warbird1 on 11-02-2005 11:37 AM

ReviloTX · 11-03-2005, 12:32 AM

Hey Gungo, thanks for stopping in and telling us what we need to fix our class. Next time bruisers are broke I'll make sure and stop by and tell you exactly how to fix em.

11-02-2005, 02:35 AM	#2
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	craized warrior wrote: More Avoidance - i would like to have my avoidance raised so that it is at least equal to around 75% of what a monk/bruiser can achieve with the same gear. i dont want monks to have to be changed to do this, id just like it changed so that guardians (and indeed zerkers, pallies and SK's) are able to achieve higher avoidance levels so that the likes of stuns etc have less chance to land, therefore making it easier to keep agro. While at the same time raising brawler mitigation to at least 75% of that of a warrior. Right? __________________

11-02-2005, 02:49 AM	#4
Raahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,792	Gaige wrote: craized warrior wrote: More Avoidance - i would like to have my avoidance raised so that it is at least equal to around 75% of what a monk/bruiser can achieve with the same gear. i dont want monks to have to be changed to do this, id just like it changed so that guardians (and indeed zerkers, pallies and SK's) are able to achieve higher avoidance levels so that the likes of stuns etc have less chance to land, therefore making it easier to keep agro. While at the same time raising brawler mitigation to at least 75% of that of a warrior. Right? Wouldn't that reduce the brawlers mitigation? __________________ R.I.P. Najena Cougaar - 90 Dirge Corwin - 90 Guardian Raahl - 30 something Templar Kilped - 70'ish Ranger

11-02-2005, 12:09 PM	#5
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Nope. Mine buffed is normally around 2500. Raiding early Noah's was like 5000? Something like that. __________________

11-02-2005, 12:20 PM	#6
Greyto Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 203	Gaige wrote: Nope. Mine buffed is normally around 2500. Raiding early Noah's was like 5000? Something like that. My guardian looted a water flask (4 of em) today

11-02-2005, 12:37 PM	#7
Ladicav Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 212	craized warrior wrote: Unresistable or very hard to resist Taunts - mobs resisting taunts is silly IMO, agro is hard enough to keep against big DPS classes like wizzies and swashbucklers without the high chance that my taunts are going to be resisted. I would be happy with just this. This should be the Guardians domain, period. If we are meant to be unsung heroes and masters of agro management, prove it. Stop it with the stupid resists, and the AOE taunts that are not if some mobs in an encounter resist and other do not. Give us these tools to do it and make them reliable, not a push the button and pray the taunt sticks rubish we have now. Show me that Guardians are absolutely lock down 100% agro makers. Currently all fighters have good agro spells of some kind or another, what makes Guardians so much different in this regard? I still do not feel very unsung hero like in the agro game. We shouldn't need backup classes to make our hate generation more potent, it should already be, as part of our class definition/specialty. The backup classes should be used for the other fighters in the archetype, which would give Guardians the defining ability Moorgard claims we have. Message Edited by Ladicav on 11-01-2005 11:39 PM Message Edited by Ladicav on 11-01-2005 11:46 PM

11-01-2005, 10:23 PM	#1
craized warrior Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 43	Unresistable or very hard to resist Taunts - mobs resisting taunts is silly IMO, agro is hard enough to keep against big DPS classes like wizzies and swashbucklers without the high chance that my taunts are going to be resisted. More Avoidance - i would like to have my avoidance raised so that it is at least equal to around 75% of what a monk/bruiser can achieve with the same gear. i dont want monks to have to be changed to do this, id just like it changed so that guardians (and indeed zerkers, pallies and SK's) are able to achieve higher avoidance levels so that the likes of stuns etc have less chance to land, therefore making it easier to keep agro. More DPS - guardians are not and i should hope never will be a DPS class, however more DPS makes it easier to keep agro. i dont require a large boost to DPS just enough to make it easier to keep agro, around 20-30% increase prehaps, and preferably ability based as opposed to melee based as i believe our melee based DPS is fine. These i believe are perhaps the most important changes us as guardians are crying out for, im sure people could point out some more but i would be perfectly happy if these changes were made. Message Edited by craized warrior on 11-01-2005 10:26 AM

11-02-2005, 02:40 AM	#3
Krooner Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 912	Perhaps the solution to the stuns and styfles lies along with SOE's current thinking. When in a certain defensive stance Warrior class.... immune to physically based stuns ....Guardian HTL immune to knockbacks. Brawler immune to magical based stuns Crusader immune to desease / poison based stunns I only put the secondary one there for the Guardian because were suppose to be the premo defense and knockbacks are physical. I leave the door open for other classes to add a secondary effect as well.

11-02-2005, 12:56 PM	#8
TunaBoo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,507	I got better gear then noah and I ain't got 5000 mita oustide 3 people all using a 30 second buff on me. 3064 unbuffed. Message Edited by TunaBoo on 11-02-2005 01:56 AM __________________ www.spiralguild.com

11-02-2005, 06:55 PM	#9
Skha Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 117	master POA = 400 something master priest buff = 500 something master def stance = 400 something legendary t6 potion = 240 You can't get 5k permanently maintainable EDIT oops forgot the conj buff = 200ish, but still not 5000 Message Edited by Skharr on 11-02-2005 05:58 AM

11-02-2005, 07:01 PM	#10
Drulak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 234	Gaige wrote: Nope. Mine buffed is normally around 2500. Raiding early Noah's was like 5000? Something like that. I love the way that all Guardians are the same as Noah - according to Gaige. Put it this way mate , you have more Miti than i do and i have almost full set of cobalt. 2365 miti. Self Buffed __________________ Zobiex 90 Bezerker -EX-Guardian Cyan 42 EX-provisioner Drulakx 90Reinstated EX-Alchemist Tattood 38Reinstated EX-Monk Zobios 90 Warlock

11-02-2005, 07:10 PM	#11
RafaelSmith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,808	Drulak wrote: Gaige wrote:Nope. Mine buffed is normally around 2500. Raiding early Noah's was like 5000? Something like that. I love the way that all Guardians are the same as Noah - according to Gaige. Put it this way mate , you have more Miti than i do and i have almost full set of cobalt. 2365 miti. Self Buffed Think currently at level 56 i have around 2600 mit w/o any buffs...With DEF Stance its just shy of 3k. I think when grouped with my Fury and Defiler friends using every DEF buff we have I can get close 5k for a few seconds. Of course during that tiem the Fury is stunned, and I am rooted like 3 different ways =P But for normal everyday stuff 2.5-3k seems to be about it. __________________

11-02-2005, 09:29 PM	#12
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Drulak wrote: Put it this way mate , you have more Miti than i do and i have almost full set of cobalt. 2365 miti. Self Buffed That's not self-buffed, mine was group buffed with my 30 second mit buffs. Yeah Noah's was probably around 4500ish then, I wasn't really paying attention I was tired. __________________

11-02-2005, 09:41 PM	#13
Shizzirri Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 440	TunaBoo wrote: I got better gear then noah and I ain't got 5000 mita oustide 3 people all using a 30 second buff on me. 3064 unbuffed. Message Edited by TunaBoo on 11-02-2005 01:56 AM Nice we have a Gaige flamefest and a my [Removed for Content] is bigger than yours all in the same thread nice! I only have one piece of fabled and I can blow 5k out of the water, too bad it means nothing with the cap

11-02-2005, 10:09 PM	#14
craized warrior Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 43	"While at the same time raising brawler mitigation to at least 75% of that of a warrior. Right?" No, like i said, i dont want monks changing at all, you guys are already very happy with the way your class is, why would you want to change?

11-02-2005, 10:14 PM	#15
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	craized warrior wrote: No, like i said, i dont want monks changing at all, you guys are already very happy with the way your class is, why would you want to change? Because, if they increase your avoidance they need to increase our mitigation. You are not an avoidance class. __________________

11-02-2005, 10:19 PM	#16
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	yeah katriniti, People early on were asking for more mitgation to fix guardians i kept saying more mitgation will do nothing with the 80% cap in place all it would do is make upgrading armour meaningless when you are already at the cap. Yet peopel still complain about mitgation. funny though there is some very good ideas to actually fix guards, but people constinely bicker saying they don't want them and only want more mitigation and/or avodiance. Those are not the 2 only numbers that effect tanking. The fact is pure tanking is relatively equal. DPS in the fighter tree has too broad of a gap. It was stated in that DPS chart made by moorgard that a gaurd focusing on dps would surpass a brawler who focused on tanking that is not the case. Guards also suffer from a lack of useful utility and general lack of immersion or a role with your character. BTW crazed warrior our tanking is balanced the gap in utility and dps is the true issue. Guards have no probelm tanking raid content or other content compared to other fighters. (other then the few mobs who ressit taunts which all fighters have since all fighter taunts are now mental based) Message Edited by Gungo on 11-02-2005 09:22 AM

11-02-2005, 10:21 PM	#17
Krooner Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 912	Gaige wrote: Because, if they increase your avoidance they need to increase our mitigation. You are not an avoidance class. Sorry partner but I have to scatch this itch. ALL other fighters are offensive based and do not need a defensive spells. makes about as much sense. I do not think adding more avoidance to us is the solution either. Plate wearing individuals should be more resistant to physically based stuns and such. Bralwers should and seem to be more resistant to magical and mental based stuns. If you take the stuns down with this in mind then our DPS goes up and our survivability goes up as well.. ALL of ours.

11-02-2005, 10:35 PM	#18
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	Um warbird actually monks paladins and gaurds are the defensive fighters. Only in your world is gaurds the only defensive fighter. and i actually i feel crusaders should be the magic based fighters, brawlers should be the dps based fighters, and warriors should have the best and most versatile group buffs, taunts, debuffs.

11-02-2005, 10:37 PM	#19
Krooner Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 912	Gungo Nope... Not my opinion. Im refereing to that famous Moorguard line where he goes on about us being the "defensive fighter" Soooooo dont dispute it with me. Im just going along with Stevie on this to point out how absurd the notion is.

11-02-2005, 10:46 PM	#20
Pry Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	Gungo wrote: Um warbird actually monks paladins and gaurds are the defensive fighters. Only in your world is gaurds the only defensive fighter. and i actually i feel crusaders should be the magic based fighters, brawlers should be the dps based fighters, and warriors should have the best and most versatile group buffs, taunts, debuffs. Umm, isn't this the way it was before LU13?

11-02-2005, 11:26 PM	#21
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	yup Prynn it was cept gaurds were also the best at tanking damage by decent margin. Now that all fighters are tanking equally they need to work on your utility. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______ Fact after LU 13 no class is required anymore. But Guards do tank as well as other fighters. Many other guards have said you do. Fact is guards are still the preferred MT in raids becuase they tank better and hold agro better. LU 13 didnt break guards they made it so all fighters can tank equally Ask yourself after revamp is there any class so important now that you can't do a raid w/o them. That you can't group w/o them. The answer is no any tank can tank any healer can heal. Any caster/scout can dps. That in itself is balanced Many gaurds have said it best. That fighters are unbalanced because brawlers have more dps and crusaders have more utility. Guards need better utility and Increased DPS. Thats the onyl thing unbalanced with fighters atm. It was posted prior by the devs that a guardian who focues more on offense woudl do mroe dps then a brawler who focused on defense. That is not the case currently on live. DPS does not neccesarily have to equal damage on combat arts it cna be acheived thru buffs or debuffs. Soem classes are inherently self buff oreinted some are group buff oriented. bards dont have alot of direct dps but they add alot of damage to the group via buffs and debuffs they are an example of a group orineted class. Many brawler skills are self oreinted in fact both monk and bruser have 1 group spell line. This is a nice list of fixes on this board that does not turn gaurds into the best tank. I have not came up with these ideas but many were brought up by gaurds and non gaurds. I am playing a guard more often as well (lvl54+), but these are the ideas/changes i would like seen done. 1) AoE rescue line - (magic resist based) like old rescue ~900-1000hate and 1 agro position usable once every 5 min. Magic based if guards current AOE taunt is mental based. That gives guards 2 resist types for taunts. 2) Change intervene lines for guards to equal 100% or less total damage taken. Change Guardian sphere into A Group regenerating Ward - It would stop 1 or 2 hits and slowly regenerate. ~2,500. (althought guards should have an entire line dedicated to a group ward for all levels) 3) Remove shield damage from "Tower of Stone", (If they want also add a new Tower of stone type line that has a % chance to block AOE's on group but damages shields 10-20% based on quality of spell.) 4) Do more damage by possibly reducing timers on some combat arts and adding a few Debuffs to the mob's resistance to slashing/crushing and piercing (thereby increasing the damage done by the Guardian and group) 5) Introduce a % stun resist to Hold the Line. Allow HTL to proc thru wards. 6) increase the effectiveness of offensive stance by adding a small % to proc a stun or stifle as well as increased offensive damage. I would also like to see an 'all or nothing approach to group taunts'. Either it succeeds with all mobs, or fails with all mobs. That way you can recast it, instead of currently maybe aggroing 1 out of 5 and having to wait to recast your AOE taunt. or they can change it to have the faster recast if any mobs resists instead of the full recast if any succeed. Finally SoE should explain what shield factor actual does since they revamped it so much. If shield factor effects avodiance then it would give a logical comparison between sheilds tiers/types. If both kite and tower give a base 10% block, shield factor should add to avodiance or at minimal spell resist or mitgation therefor a shield with a shield factor of 700 should give a set increase and a shiedl factor of 900 a higher increase. Even if it is minimal any sort of comparison and upgrade will be recommended. Alot of the above was posted by nemi for a bit and other gaurds and non gaurds. Those sort of utility will help gaurds solo a ton better, group alot better, and increase thier tanking while also allowing for a more skillful playing. Message Edited by Gungo on 11-02-2005 10:27 AM

11-02-2005, 11:31 PM	#22
Pry Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 408	Gungo wrote: Ask yourself after revamp is there any class so important now that you can't do a raid w/o them. That you can't group w/o them. The answer is no any tank can tank any healer can heal. Any caster/scout can dps. That in itself is balanced Message Edited by Gungo on 11-02-200510:27 AM I know you have said this umpteenth times, but it was true before LU13 as well as after it. I know you think that there MUST have been a Guardian on raids (I have been one many without a single Guardian), and there MUST be a healer (I have had all melee groups and all healer groups), so this statement holds no water. And please fix your posts so they don't keep stretching out the forum, it's annoying.

11-02-2005, 11:33 PM	#23
Shizzirri Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 440	Gungo wrote: 1) AoE rescue line - (magic resist based) like old rescue ~900-1000hate and 1 agro position usable once every 5 min. Magic based if guards current AOE taunt is mental based. That gives guards 2 resist types for taunts. 2) Change intervene lines for guards to equal 100% or less total damage taken. Change Guardian sphere into A Group regenerating Ward - It would stop 1 or 2 hits and slowly regenerate. ~2,500. (althought guards should have an entire line dedicated to a group ward for all levels) 3) Remove shield damage from "Tower of Stone", (If they want also add a new Tower of stone type line that has a % chance to block AOE's on group but damages shields 10-20% based on quality of spell.) 4) Do more damage by possibly reducing timers on some combat arts and adding a few Debuffs to the mob's resistance to slashing/crushing and piercing (thereby increasing the damage done by the Guardian and group) 5) Introduce a % stun resist to Hold the Line. Allow HTL to proc thru wards. 6) increase the effectiveness of offensive stance by adding a small % to proc a stun or stifle as well as increased offensive damage. I would also like to see an 'all or nothing approach to group taunts'. Either it succeeds with all mobs, or fails with all mobs. That way you can recast it, instead of currently maybe aggroing 1 out of 5 and having to wait to recast your AOE taunt. or they can change it to have the faster recast if any mobs resists instead of the full recast if any succeed. Finally SoE should explain what shield factor actual does since they revamped it so much. If shield factor effects avodiance then it would give a logical comparison between sheilds tiers/types. If both kite and tower give a base 10% block, shield factor should add to avodiance or at minimal spell resist or mitgation therefor a shield with a shield factor of 700 should give a set increase and a shiedl factor of 900 a higher increase. Even if it is minimal any sort of comparison and upgrade will be recommended. Message Edited by Gungo on 11-02-2005 10:27 AM Yeah these are actually realistic potential changes to guardians, however I don't feel taunts should be resisted, they should work differently depending on the color con of the mob (weaker on stronger mobs / maybe resisted on reds - stronger on greens greys) meaning of you taunt an orange mob and the hate value is 600-800 the taunt should only generate 600-625 or so hate. A raid shouldn't wipe because of one resisted taunt on incoming (and yes you will wipe or come close with the way auto aggro is working now).

11-02-2005, 11:43 PM	#24
Krooner Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 912	Gungo: A lot of good yet rehashed info in that post. Unfortunatly there is also a lot of missinformation. "LU 13 didnt break guards they made it so all fighters can tank equally" This is a matter of opinion. If you look at what was intended by SOE to have happen then yeah you could say that. If you look at what the player base and raiding guilds are doing with guards your dead wrong. I took a long look at the raiding guilds on my server. Ones I knew had a lot of Guardians. What I saw was that they now had 4 or 5 monks sks and zerks for every one guardian. You look at the guardians play time and off line for X amount of days. WHAT SOE would like to have happen and what is actually happening is two different things. Dont ask ME to prove it... prove me wrong. Secondly. Bards do have some rather nice DPS attacks. The dirge ones are more DOT oriented such as the Scream of Death. Do they do 10K instantly NO. SOD will do close to 5K every minute at Ad3 with debuffs. In a nut shell SOE has failed to realize that you cant balance fighters in just tanking you have to balance them across the board or not at all. If you dont then the WHOLE fighter class is unbalanced. Giage and other have said it. If there is a best no one will want to play the worst.

11-03-2005, 12:03 AM	#25
Skha Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 117	Raahl wrote: Gaige wrote: craized warrior wrote: More Avoidance - i would like to have my avoidance raised so that it is at least equal to around 75% of what a monk/bruiser can achieve with the same gear. i dont want monks to have to be changed to do this, id just like it changed so that guardians (and indeed zerkers, pallies and SK's) are able to achieve higher avoidance levels so that the likes of stuns etc have less chance to land, therefore making it easier to keep agro. While at the same time raising brawler mitigation to at least 75% of that of a warrior. Right? Wouldn't that reduce the brawlers mitigation? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you mean my bruiser couldnt hit 8k mit anymore?!?! /cry

11-03-2005, 12:18 AM	#26
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	Prynn worte : I know you have said this umpteenth times, but it was true before LU13 as well as after it. I know you think that there MUST have been a Guardian on raids (I have been one many without a single Guardian), and there MUST be a healer (I have had all melee groups and all healer groups), so this statement holds no water. __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________ Actually Prynn you are wrong please provide the links were a non guard has tanked ICY DIG, SoTL, Brutal acts, Nagalik, And kra'thunk (version 3.2 Final) Those are just a few raids i cna think of that i have never heard of anyone but gaurds tanking. Many more raids that didn't just require a gaurd or required a tricked out fabled crusader, and like 2-3 raids a brawler could tank. Message Edited by Gungo on 11-02-2005 11:34 AM

11-03-2005, 12:23 AM	#27
craized warrior Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 43	"Because, if they increase your avoidance they need to increase our mitigation. You are not an avoidance class." i really dont care whether we are an "avoidance class" or not, i chose guardian because i wanted to be a tank, if i wanted to play a DPS fighter class i would have chosen a monk, now that monks tank as well as us but also completely outstrip us DPS wise, i believe the best course is to make us the better tanks again to balance the classes. improving our avoidance will improve our tanking ability. they improved monks, now we want them to improve guards/zerkers/plate classes. you should be happy that your class has been improved instead of trying your hardest to keep us guardians in the dirt. you didnt see any guardians constantly pushing to have our DPS raised to monk levels before all the class changes happened... Message Edited by craized warrior on 11-02-2005 11:24 AM

11-03-2005, 12:30 AM	#28
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	Consider also raising avoidance will make agro harder... since avoid means less HTL procs

11-03-2005, 12:30 AM	#29
Krooner Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 912	Oh COME ONE Gungo. What part of the concept escapes you. I DONT KNOW OF ANY SO IT MUST HAVE BEEN IMPOSSIBLE = FALSE STATEMENT UNPROVABLE STATEMENT I dont know who origionally posted that idiotic statement but its not up to us to prove it false. ITS up to you and everyone that believes it to prove it true. Soo I issue you the same challenge. Prove to me that there was not one non guardian tank that COULD tank those mobs. Going back through all the logs and looking at every single raid encounter does not validate it. The only way to prove it would be to get in a magical time machine and go back 3 months and try every conceivable combination of groups without guardians. IF you want to really REALLY be a constructive member of the guardian discussions then drop this notion here and now. I will grant you this statement to be more true. Prior to LU13 a raid was much more likely to succede with a guardian to main tank then other classes. Or even this one Prior to LU13 There want enough non guardians MT for raid mobs. Message Edited by Warbird1 on 11-02-2005 11:36 AM DARN Crappy keyboard at work. Message Edited by Warbird1 on 11-02-2005 11:37 AM

11-03-2005, 12:32 AM	#30
ReviloTX Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 234	Hey Gungo, thanks for stopping in and telling us what we need to fix our class. Next time bruisers are broke I'll make sure and stop by and tell you exactly how to fix em.