SK crit heals and Mythical weapon

[melaine_dvarvensplitter]

<p>I know we get a 300% transfer to hate based on % of heal and back in RoK/TSO it worked well for additional hate. Now here we are in DoV, massive boosts to HP, DPS and hate is on the bottom again. It has been brought up about 1,2,3 inc... mage snags aggro, rescue, scout snaps aggro, sneering assault, etc... etc... group wipe due to aggro all over.  I am hate built and mastered out, still working on adornments for hate while I replace armor and not wasting shards on adornments until I have my final gear.</p><p>I know hate isn't so much of an issue with dirge/coercer in the group or assassin/dirge/swash/coercer in the group but it then requires the almost perfect quad group and really I don't have time all day to build a group like that. I want to run a zone and like to get 5 more people and go and not deal with "perfect" groups. They take to long to form and pigeon hole people into classes.</p><p>Now it is time to revisit this spell and get our aggro generation is subpar when based on the aggro/dps curve and in TSO/RoK my personal aggro control was greater than it is now because of our heals critting.  Instead of having the base heal crit at 130% *I think it's at that, not in game atm* drop it to 40% and allow the crit boost chance we get to boost it up to help our odds, or even just keep it at 50% and allow Crit Bonus to be primary ability to affect it. It would give additional Hate that is sooooooo needed and give SK some of there traditional feel back.</p><p>I think even the 40-50% base on heals would work for all tanks and use either CC or CB to be the only thing that affects the critting of heals. It would cut down on heals generated and keep the healers happy that complained that tanks were out healing them.</p><p>((More to come in a while)) Look for edits and/or bumps while I flesh this out.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>The problem is that our actual heals from lifetaps is miniscule, especially in raids.  While tanking, and even though I take more damage than any of the other Fighters due to an imbalance of survivability big time, the most I actually see from Lifetaps heals is like 100 hps over the course of an encounter.  If you break down a heal parse most of the heals come from Bloodletter if it procs, Crusaders Faith, Reaver, and Aura.  None of these are lifetaps.  Those 4 make up about 1200 hps if doing some good tanking, than you are lucky to get another 100 hps from actual Lifetaps.</p><p>Its very easy to do the math and see why this epic buff is the worst buff in the game for epic buffs.  100 hps x 300% = 300 hate per second.  Its a joke really.</p><p>Now if you glance at every other Fighter class they are given a good chunk to reduce incoming damage while also getting something else.  Guards proc a damage reduction and immunity to control effects.  Zerkers have damage reduction, huge amount of hate figured from the damage they take,  and 100% AE auto.  Bruisers get like 10% physical damage reduction.  Monks get mitigation increase and 50% strikethru.  Paladins get their 10% damage reduction and 10% of damage taken returned as a heal.</p><p>SKs get the measly 300 hate per second average and a damage proc that does like 400 dps.  Really quite bad.</p><p>The ability needs to be changed to what SOE had in mind with the original ability only it needs to be changed to something that works.  The original ability was designed to provide a very big amount of agro that would work on everything engaged to the SK.  The idea is that since SKs have no hate siphon they can rely on and have less taunts than other Fighters that SK hate is supposed to be self sufficient.  DPS was supposed to be a factor in this equation as well, however SK dps is not any better than other Fighter DPS now and with DPS classes shot thru the roof ALL tanks to do any decent tanking have to have the same hate buffs/transfers as any other tank.</p>

[Bremer]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Zerkers have damage reduction, huge amount of hate figured from the damage they take,  and 100% AE auto</blockquote><p>Nobody knows if Berserkers get any hate at all from the effect and if it works it will most likely only apply to heals like the SK version, thus generating a similar amount of hate. If you want to trade your AE abilities like Grave Sacrament for 240+ AE attack Berserkers can get with their spells and AAs, I'd happily accept.</p>

[Gaarysal]

<p>The biggest problem is neither the sk nor zerker procs/buffs are parsable. If they were it would be much easier to test how much hate they actually generate and for the sk one, what it actually does proc off of. Also the zerker one is passive the sk one relies on a proc going off before we spike enough for one of our lifetaps to actually heal us as opposed to the 99% of our heals that get wasted since we are warded and 100% health.</p><p>It's not really a zerker vs sk issue, our mythical is very insignificant compared to all other classes. It needs a revamp and i'm sure many other people will say the same for their mythicals but as far as i've seen the mythicals are all but set in stone. When was the last time someone's mythical got changed besides maybe a bug fix?</p><p>And to the OP, either you have no clue how criticals work or i'm reading it wrong. Base heal crit of 130% means when you crit it applies 100% of the spell plus 30% more ex: spell hits for 100, it crits for 100 * 1.3 = 130. If the change you suggested went into effect 100 * .4 = 40 our heals would do less than a non crit. But this all doesn't even matter because fighter heals are hard coded to NOT crit whatsoever. Besides our lifetaps were always based off spell crit anyway.</p>

[Talathion]

<p>I don't know about you guys, but Zerkers have the worst hate of all fighter classes, its 25% <span style="color: #ff0000;">AFTER MITIGATION/WARDS</span>.</p><p>If I have a shaman, I usually take no damage until its a spike, thus generating far less hate.</p><p>If it was before mitigation/wards then we would be holding aggro like champs, but berserkers are on the lowest list of holding aggro.</p><p><span>Paladin>Monk>Guardian></span>Shadowknight<span>>Bruiser>Berserker</span></p><p>Also, Berserkers Blood Rage has the SAME Issues as Shadowknights Lifetaps, its a pathetic amount of healing, not even 1%, it should critical as well.</p><p>OR they need to turn all Fighter heals into percents.</p><p>PS: I don't see why berserkers/shadowknights fight eachother, we have pretty much the same issues</p>

[Raviel]

<p>the berserker mythical reactive hate doesnt even parse, i never could tell if it was working or not</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Raviel@Guk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>the berserker mythical reactive hate doesnt even parse, i never could tell if it was working or not</p></blockquote><p>I know its only damage AFTER mitigation/wards and damage reduction...</p>

[melaine_dvarvensplitter]

<p>First I need to stop posting with 2 hrs sleep, and no coffee. I will put together a lot better post in the next day or so based on some of the feedback here and my testing.</p><p><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Meshuggahx]

<p>Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes? you don't really see sk's asking for sk's changes on zerkers thread. zomg get your own threads!</p><p>On the subject though, hate does seem abit harder this exp for tanks. Like i always said "if you want to hold aggro efficiantly against dpser's you need to do at least 50% of their dps and taunt like mad" well nowadays 50% for some tanks is really hard to get (not really the case for me but still). hate in general need to be looked into because atm like 10k taunt worth like 2-3% on the hate meter at best that's kinda stupid.</p>

[Bremer]

<p><cite>Meshuggahx@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes?</p></blockquote><p>When the person who makes threads like "blabla is overpowered, I have never inspected the spell, I don't know what it does, I don't know what the recast is but Berserkers must be cheating and can get under the recast cap and that's why Berserkers have to be nerfed" makes unqualified statements about Berserkers it somehow provokes an objection.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meshuggahx@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes?</p></blockquote><p>When the person who makes threads like "blabla is overpowered, I have never inspected the spell, I don't know what it does, I don't know what the recast is but Berserkers must be cheating and can get under the recast cap and that's why Berserkers have to be nerfed" makes unqualified statements about Berserkers it somehow provokes an objection.</p></blockquote><p>Lol, still hurt about Adrenaline?  Should have just rolled with getting it changed in SF beta instead of letting them hammer it later....your bad.</p><p>The point I was making is that ALL other Fighters get some type of boost to survivability with their Mythical buff.  They take less damage because of their buff in other words.  Zerkers on top of the damage reduction also cap their AE auto attack, which is still a very nice ability, AND they get the hate generation (which is a lot more than what the SK mythical can produce) on top of it.  Zerkers myth buff is nice, just like all the other Fighters is nice.  I really don't care that with open wounds it means you can get over 200%, not all abilities are useful for all classes.  It is still a very nice buff until level 80 pre-Myth buff, and Myth buff makes it obscolete because it gives you the buff for 100% of the time.</p><p>The SK mythical as I outlined is junk, especially for the content that the myth buffs were designed for...RAIDING.  SK mythical buff should be changed to at least add like 10% damage reduction (maybe a magic damage reflect instead would be much cooler and SK'ish) along with making the hate gain idea actually work.  There are a lot of ways that the AE hate mechanic could work---damage done, heals done to the SK, etc etc.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The SK mythical as I outlined is junk, especially for the content that the myth buffs were designed for...RAIDING.  SK mythical buff should be changed to at least add like 10% damage reduction (maybe a magic damage reflect instead would be much cooler and SK'ish) along with making the hate gain idea actually work.  There are a lot of ways that the AE hate mechanic could work---damage done, heals done to the SK, etc etc.</p></blockquote><p>20% damage reduction from magical damage is something I could support for the SK mythical.</p><p>Reflects, particularly passive would be a _horrible_ idea.</p>

[Bremer]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meshuggahx@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes?</p></blockquote><p>When the person who makes threads like "blabla is overpowered, I have never inspected the spell, I don't know what it does, I don't know what the recast is but Berserkers must be cheating and can get under the recast cap and that's why Berserkers have to be nerfed" makes unqualified statements about Berserkers it somehow provokes an objection.</p></blockquote><p>Lol, still hurt about Adrenaline? </p></blockquote><p>No, it's more a person that has " <span >If you are an idiot that doesn't know healthy mechanics for Fighters STOP POSTING!!!</span>" in his signature while he can't read spell descriptions (or rather posts about them without reading them).</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meshuggahx@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes?</p></blockquote><p>When the person who makes threads like "blabla is overpowered, I have never inspected the spell, I don't know what it does, I don't know what the recast is but Berserkers must be cheating and can get under the recast cap and that's why Berserkers have to be nerfed" makes unqualified statements about Berserkers it somehow provokes an objection.</p></blockquote><p>Lol, still hurt about Adrenaline? </p></blockquote><p>No, it's more a person that has " <span>If you are an idiot that doesn't know healthy mechanics for Fighters STOP POSTING!!!</span>" in his signature while he can't read spell descriptions (or rather posts about them without reading them).</p></blockquote><p>I don't remember SKs Lifetaps/Reaver draining 4% Mana Every 3 seconds for 30 seconds then stops working suddenly when ya run OOP, maybe they need to double the cost of lifetaps and make reaver drain 2% Power Every 2 seconds instead of Health, then only make reaver/lifetaps work when you are under a new spell called: Shadowknights Mania, if not under Mania your healing will be 0%, also, Only half your spells work unless your not under Shadowknights Mania, and anytime you use reaver, it only lasts 30 seconds, then under the other 30 seconds your no longer under Shadowknight's Mania Madness and for that 30 seconds and half your skills are unusable.</p><p>Grave Sacrament: Requires Shadowknight's Mania to use. (Example!)</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bremer wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Meshuggahx@Butcherblock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes?</p></blockquote><p>When the person who makes threads like "blabla is overpowered, I have never inspected the spell, I don't know what it does, I don't know what the recast is but Berserkers must be cheating and can get under the recast cap and that's why Berserkers have to be nerfed" makes unqualified statements about Berserkers it somehow provokes an objection.</p></blockquote><p>Lol, still hurt about Adrenaline? </p></blockquote><p>No, it's more a person that has " <span>If you are an idiot that doesn't know healthy mechanics for Fighters STOP POSTING!!!</span>" in his signature while he can't read spell descriptions (or rather posts about them without reading them).</p></blockquote><p>Maybe you should take the advice of the sig and not post in a thread about how weak the SK mythical buff is since you are obviously set on making it a Beserker issue.  The fact is that even after mitigated/ward damage the Zerker buff provides way more hate than the SK buff because SK lifetaps are so tiny on the heal parse even after wards and there really aren't that many SK lifetaps.</p><p>The buff is extremely weak, and there is no way that after showing every other Fighter buff that you can argue that at all.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Maybe you should take the advice of the sig and not post in a thread about how weak the SK mythical buff is since you are obviously set on making it a Beserker issue.  The fact is that even after mitigated/ward damage the Zerker buff provides way more hate than the SK buff because SK lifetaps are so tiny on the heal parse even after wards and there really aren't that many SK lifetaps.</p><p>The buff is extremely weak, and there is no way that after showing every other Fighter buff that you can argue that at all.</p></blockquote><p>I had discussed this mechanic with an SK a while back.</p><p>The best idea we had was to make it so that SK lifetaps that are not used (cause he's at full health and warded) would be pooled into a 'Blood Ward' up to say 20% of the SK's total health.</p><p>I was basically for that if we removed % based lifetaps and tweaked them to flat values.  I wasn't 100% sold as 2% lifetaps being banked into a decaying ward could in some cases be banked to quickly.  Particularly if you consider the case of hitting a very large number of mobs.</p><p>I prefer though the previous idea of a DR for magical based damage as I think it has less potential to scale out of control.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Maybe you should take the advice of the sig and not post in a thread about how weak the SK mythical buff is since you are obviously set on making it a Beserker issue.  The fact is that even after mitigated/ward damage the Zerker buff provides way more hate than the SK buff because SK lifetaps are so tiny on the heal parse even after wards and there really aren't that many SK lifetaps.</p><p>The buff is extremely weak, and there is no way that after showing every other Fighter buff that you can argue that at all.</p></blockquote><p>I had discussed this mechanic with an SK a while back.</p><p>The best idea we had was to make it so that SK lifetaps that are not used (cause he's at full health and warded) would be pooled into a 'Blood Ward' up to say 20% of the SK's total health.</p><p>I was basically for that if we removed % based lifetaps and tweaked them to flat values.  I wasn't 100% sold as 2% lifetaps being banked into a decaying ward could in some cases be banked to quickly.  Particularly if you consider the case of hitting a very large number of mobs.</p><p>I prefer though the previous idea of a DR for magical based damage as I think it has less potential to scale out of control.</p></blockquote><p>Really though the % based lifetaps are the only ones that actually scale properly.  Flat lifetap values have NEVER scaled well, even when they could crit.  Now with DoV the hp pool has practically tripled but the lifetap value has hardly increased at all.</p><p>% abilities scale the best.  So a 2% lifetap will always be 2% health.  Also, the 20% pool would always be a 20% of current health pool, it would always scale with where current health values are.  I am sure some numbers would have to be tweaked to be in balance, but the point is once you find a pretty balanced % number it would always scale.</p><p>Really each lifetap right now should at least be made to a short duration ward that way they would actually do something.  They could stay at their current level even and it would be a good benefit (excepting probably Tap Veins that would be too big of a ward on AE if it was kept at current level.  Maybe the ability Tap Veins could be changed to a % of current health instead.</p><p>Regardless though, the Mythical buff is a joke and by far the weakest buff out there.</p>

[Bremer]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The fact is that even after mitigated/ward damage the Zerker buff provides way more hate than the SK buff</blockquote><p>The fact that you don't have any numbers at all to backup your claim somewhat relativizes your "fact".</p>

[Felshades]

<p>Tala, you really hate SKs don't you?</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>% abilities scale the best.  So a 2% lifetap will always be 2% health.  Also, the 20% pool would always be a 20% of current health pool, it would always scale with where current health values are.  I am sure some numbers would have to be tweaked to be in balance, but the point is once you find a pretty balanced % number it would always scale.</p></blockquote><p>Surely you see the problem with how much you would potentially ward if you hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds?</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Sakiri@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tala, you really hate SKs don't you?</p></blockquote><p>SKs have always hated berserkers.</p>

[Meshuggahx]

<p><cite>Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Sakiri@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Tala, you really hate SKs don't you?</p></blockquote><p>SKs have always hated berserkers.</p></blockquote><p>No we don't. We just hate zerkers like you that keep on whining nerfing sk's instead of focusing on your own class.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>% abilities scale the best.  So a 2% lifetap will always be 2% health.  Also, the 20% pool would always be a 20% of current health pool, it would always scale with where current health values are.  I am sure some numbers would have to be tweaked to be in balance, but the point is once you find a pretty balanced % number it would always scale.</p></blockquote><p>Surely you see the problem with how much you would potentially ward if you hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds?</p></blockquote><p>I can hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds with my lifetaps?</p><p>There is 1 AE lifetap...that hits a max of 8 targets and the recast is 1 min.  2% for each mob means a whopping 16% of health at max amount of targets.  In fact the number would definitely need to be more than 2% because Tap Veins hitting max targets for the lifetaps should be a full 100% heal amount.  So needs to be more like 12.5% of max health for every target hit.  Due to the warding system and healers keeping everything Green all the time there would be very few times at all that would actually create a full heal amount.</p><p>The spill over into a ward is actually a great idea if it could be done mechanically.  It becomes a regen'ing ward than that has to be actively regenerated through Lifetaps.  Keep in mind there are really only a few Lifetaps and it would take quite a bit of casting them to get anything like a 20% of max health ward.  Most likely it would get eaten away just as fast as you could cast them like Aura, but it would be doing something versus the nothing it does now.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>Pulled out some numbers on actual Lifetap size heals and their recast with my AA build and self buffed at 46.2% reuse.</p><p>Harm Touch (3 points in EoF AA for lifetap) - 1696 heal on 2:30 recast, works out to be a whopping 11 heals per sec</p><p>Siphon Strike - 960-1600 heal on 20.5 sec, works out to a whopping 78 hps</p><p>Shadow Coil - 60 heal every 4 sec, due to reuse can be up constantly.  Works out to 15 hps.</p><p>Devour Vitae - 2578-3057 heal and 784 heal every 10 sec.  Works out to at most 384 hps (capped reuse ability) at top end</p><p>Unholy Blessing - 1261-1542 5 triggers can be recast 10 sec.  Assuming all 5 triggers were used in the 10 seconds nets 771 hps at top end</p><p>Grim Harbinger - 960-1600 proc heal 4.3x per minute.  Works out to 114 hps at top end</p><p>Tap Veins - 3739 heal per target 30 sec reuse capped.  Works out to 124 hps per target (very few times more than 1 in raids).</p><p>So, at top end on everything assumig on a Boss raid mob we are talking a whopping 1500 hps roughly.  Now assuming that your healers were afk and you got every bit of that heal miraculously constantly we are talking a meager 4500 hate per second from the Mythical buff.</p><p>Also assuming there was some type of spill over into ward if at max health for lets say 20% of max hp (60k health tank gets a 12k ward) it would take literally casting every lifetap we have, plus having a proc go off for Grim Habinger and for Unholy Blessing in order to fill it.  This is assuming that you were taking no damage in the process as well.  Lifetaps even than still seem weak.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>% abilities scale the best.  So a 2% lifetap will always be 2% health.  Also, the 20% pool would always be a 20% of current health pool, it would always scale with where current health values are.  I am sure some numbers would have to be tweaked to be in balance, but the point is once you find a pretty balanced % number it would always scale.</p></blockquote><p>Surely you see the problem with how much you would potentially ward if you hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds?</p></blockquote><p>I can hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds with my lifetaps?</p></blockquote><p>I was thinking of reaver heals in with the lifetaps, since they effectively are designed to do the same thing, siphon heals to you.</p><p>Reaver like lifetaps is useless if you are already full on health.</p><p>If Reaver heals are explicitely not included, and you are only talking about your one aoe lifetap included, then I'm cool with it.  Just need to be clear reaver hits would not be accumulated into the blood ward.</p><p>I feel like in this conversation from SK's reaver ticks are frequently overlooked.  Is there a reason for this other than in raid settings it doesn't amount to alot?  Is there something broken about the ability and it works differently than stated?</p>

[Banditman]

<p>Reaver just BARELY overcomes it's own health cost these days. You can't forget that Reaver *does* cost health to run.</p><p>Don't get me wrong, it does overcome it, but not by all that much, especially in situations with only one mob.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Reaver just BARELY overcomes it's own health cost these days. You can't forget that Reaver *does* cost health to run.</p><p>Don't get me wrong, it does overcome it, but not by all that much, especially in situations with only one mob.</p></blockquote><p>To be clear, you mean when fighting single targets?  Cause it seems to me when I fight large encounters it does fine.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Reaver just BARELY overcomes it's own health cost these days. You can't forget that Reaver *does* cost health to run.</p><p>Don't get me wrong, it does overcome it, but not by all that much, especially in situations with only one mob.</p></blockquote><p>People are obviously bad at this game if they can't click 8 buttons in 3 seconds.</p>

[Davngr1]

<p>yea sk's have taken a beating of nerfs and it's time to stop taking from the class.    tbh i rather my sk get damage over anything else but i don't raid him so not sure what raiding sk's are looking for. </p><p>  i think it's time to give hybrid .5 inate crit bonus for all the damage and remove the shield requirement for knight stance.  after all with the high amount of crit bonu in game these days the 20% extra will hardly equate to a 20% boost but it would give the class some luster back.</p>

[Talathion]

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>yea sk's have taken a beating of nerfs and it's time to stop taking from the class.    tbh i rather my sk get damage over anything else but i don't raid him so not sure what raiding sk's are looking for. </p><p>  i think it's time to give hybrid .5 inate crit bonus for all the damage and remove the shield requirement for knight stance.  after all with the high amount of crit bonu in game these days the 20% extra will hardly equate to a 20% boost but it would give the class some luster back.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, then lets just remove the berserker class since we won't have anything against the new SK class.</p>

[Drumstix]

<p>Talathion, you really need a temporary ban or something for being a constant troll and contributing nothing to the original topic. Just because your class comes into a discussion for comparison, doesn't mean anyone is asking for nerfs. Stop being an idiot.</p><p>The <strong>ONLY</strong> passive effects on our myth, beside the static damage proc (as most have), is a 300% hate gain on lifetaps that heal us, and increase dot's tick damage. When sitting at 100% health for the majority of any fight, the effect is literally doing nothing for us. The point really isn't that we need more hate gain though, it's that our mythical buff is worthless.</p><p>Zerker epic has a 15% crit chance and 10% multi attack proc. 5% damage reduxBruiser has 10% redux and some avoidance boost.Guardian has 5% redux proc, immunity to reposte, immunity proc.Monks get mit increase, strikethrough, block chance, and 15% multi attack proc.Paladins 10% redux, 10% reactive, base heals/spells increase proc.</p><p>I'm sure each tank could put in 2 cents about their mythical, but this topic is about the SK one and that is very useless in comparison.</p><p>All tanks could really use some better hate tools, but that is another topic altogether.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>% abilities scale the best.  So a 2% lifetap will always be 2% health.  Also, the 20% pool would always be a 20% of current health pool, it would always scale with where current health values are.  I am sure some numbers would have to be tweaked to be in balance, but the point is once you find a pretty balanced % number it would always scale.</p></blockquote><p>Surely you see the problem with how much you would potentially ward if you hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds?</p></blockquote><p>I can hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds with my lifetaps?</p></blockquote><p>I was thinking of reaver heals in with the lifetaps, since they effectively are designed to do the same thing, siphon heals to you.</p><p>Reaver like lifetaps is useless if you are already full on health.</p><p>If Reaver heals are explicitely not included, and you are only talking about your one aoe lifetap included, then I'm cool with it.  Just need to be clear reaver hits would not be accumulated into the blood ward.</p><p>I feel like in this conversation from SK's reaver ticks are frequently overlooked.  Is there a reason for this other than in raid settings it doesn't amount to alot?  Is there something broken about the ability and it works differently than stated?</p></blockquote><p>Reaver is not technically a Lifetap if that makes sense.  Devour Vitae is a Lifetap because it does damage and heals at the same time off of the same spell.  Reaver however is a heal that is cast from damaging a mob with a seperate spell.</p><p>As far as the amount of reaver healing on raids it is due from the huge fact that healers have no problem keeping a Fighter 100% health the majority of time.  When they do spike down the incoming heals are so fast and big that Reaver hardly has any time to actually heal as well.  Now without a Shaman Reaver starts to show up more on heals, just like a Warden starts to climb on the heal parse when there isn't a Shaman healing with them.  By design though Wards are so powerful because it prevents deaths more than any other healers.</p><p>Reaver while tanking might get lucky and heal me for 300-400 heals per second.  A 300-400 heals per second that is unneeded because all it is doing is filling in the very tiny gaps between what healers are going to make up anyway most likely.  Reaver is a decent ability from the EoF tree, and is probably fine where it is.  The issue is in every other Lifetap being a joke and this thread specifically addressing how becauase Lifetaps are practically nothing it makes the Epic buff nothing as well.</p>

[gatrm]

<p>The real point of this thread is that the SK mythical buff is useless.  It literally is not noticeable if I forget to recast it after respecing.  I have gone weeks before realizing it was not up because it does not have any noticeable affect.  This cannot be said by most classes.</p><p>Increasing hate by the amount healed by life taps was a good idea in theory, however it doesn't work.  Even before the nerf to heal crits it didn't work, if there was a shaman around. </p><p>My suggestion would be to change it altogether- Maybe it would add a taunt to all combat arts.  Or add a taunt equal in size to the life tap on all life taps.  Either of these would increase hate as was apparently the goal when developing the SK mythical.   A taunt proc with damage reduction would also be nice, or for a portion of all damage that the SK takes to be returned as a ward.</p><p>Something needs to be changed to make it useful</p><p>I would also ask that the clicky target lock be changed to actually work as a target lock.</p>

[urgthock]

<p><cite>gatrm wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>add a taunt equal in size to the life tap on all life taps.</p></blockquote><p>I like this idea the most as it "feels" the closest to what I think the devs were trying to do. Since lifetap heals don't do much (or anything when a shaman is around), this would still accomplish the same thing by way of using the same abilities. It would just apply to the actual lifetap damage instead of the lifetap healing.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>gatrm wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The real point of this thread is that the SK mythical buff is useless.  It literally is not noticeable if I forget to recast it after respecing.  I have gone weeks before realizing it was not up because it does not have any noticeable affect.  This cannot be said by most classes.</p><p>Increasing hate by the amount healed by life taps was a good idea in theory, however it doesn't work.  Even before the nerf to heal crits it didn't work, if there was a shaman around. </p></blockquote><p>Sorry if we derailed, but that wasn't the intention.  It does need some looking at, as does the usefulness of lifetaping in general.</p><p>My proposal was to make the clicky add the Blood Ward effect that any 'over-tap' amounts would accumulate into a ward that is capped at 20-30% of your health.</p><p>The depletion of the ward would then continue to add hate as would the direct heals from the lifetaps.</p><p>This was my suggestion on tweaking the buff keeping the orriginal idea of what you tap adding to your hate, but providing a viable means for that mechanic to work with either a shaman around, or on raid encounters.  So long as reaver doesn't contribute to the blood ward accumulation, I think it would be a reasonable change and also match the orriginal intention of the ability.</p><p>This was my idea for the buff some time ago, I just never posted it cause well, when I had it SK's were already insane <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[urgthock]

<p>I have read this whole thread and I have yet to see anyone mention the other ability of the SK Myth. The 1 hit stoneskin (if it's more than 60% of your health). I just think that percentage is too high. All other classes that get a 1 hit stoneskin ability usually have a health threshold closer to 30 or 40%. 60% just seems really high. Or am I just not understanding that it's better than I thought it was.</p>

[Yimway]

<p>IMO, the higher threshold is a bonus.  It makes it less likely some misc hit will take the stoneskin when your using it for something important.</p><p>Others might see that differently.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>having it eat 30k hit is much better than it eating a 15k hit. the only question is, did you really need that 30% to start with, generally you tank while green and get topped off quickly so the larger hits are more important to avoid.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>having it eat 30k hit is much better than it eating a 15k hit. the only question is, did you really need that 30% to start with, generally you tank while green and get topped off quickly so the larger hits are more important to avoid.</p></blockquote><p>The problem is the ability only absorbs physical damage for that very short time on that really long recast of 5 min.  It should be good for ALL damage over 60% of health.</p>

[Rageincarnate]

<p>I'd love for the target lock/taunt and stoneskin to be seperated into two different abilities tbh.  The clicky is on such a long recast.. It's kinda pointless. </p>

[urgthock]

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>IMO, the higher threshold is a bonus.  It makes it less likely some misc hit will take the stoneskin when your using it for something important.</p><p>Others might see that differently.</p></blockquote><p>Well, my question was more along the lines of, if you don't raid (which I don't anymore); how often are you actually getting hit for more than 60% of your health? It just seems that the high threshold simply makes the ability worthless in most (non-raid) circumstances.</p>

[LygerT]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>having it eat 30k hit is much better than it eating a 15k hit. the only question is, did you really need that 30% to start with, generally you tank while green and get topped off quickly so the larger hits are more important to avoid.</p></blockquote><p>The problem is the ability only absorbs physical damage for that very short time on that really long recast of 5 min.  It should be good for ALL damage over 60% of health.</p></blockquote><p>i might understand if it was the only ability, perhaps the heal portion could be adjusted but keep in mind there are 2 abilities, not just 1 that can be conveniently forgotten about.</p><p></p><p><cite>urgthock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>IMO, the higher threshold is a bonus.  It makes it less likely some misc hit will take the stoneskin when your using it for something important.</p><p>Others might see that differently.</p></blockquote><p>Well, my question was more along the lines of, if you don't raid (which I don't anymore); how often are you actually getting hit for more than 60% of your health? It just seems that the high threshold simply makes the ability worthless in most (non-raid) circumstances.</p></blockquote><p>you raided to get the mythical, it is a raiding piece of equipment not a heroic or solo one.</p><p></p><p>if i purchased a tool to work on my mercedes and used that tool for years then sold the mercedes and bought a toyota, the tool doesn't work on the toyota, if i take the tool back to the truck i bought it from should they offer me an exchange? i don't feel they're obligated to, but you may suggest that they have a trade in program for something more useful to retired raiders and possibly as replacements for alts as the mythical is no longer "mythical".</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>having it eat 30k hit is much better than it eating a 15k hit. the only question is, did you really need that 30% to start with, generally you tank while green and get topped off quickly so the larger hits are more important to avoid.</p></blockquote><p>The problem is the ability only absorbs physical damage for that very short time on that really long recast of 5 min.  It should be good for ALL damage over 60% of health.</p></blockquote><p>With a 5 min recast, I wholeheartedly agree on ALL damage.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>having it eat 30k hit is much better than it eating a 15k hit. the only question is, did you really need that 30% to start with, generally you tank while green and get topped off quickly so the larger hits are more important to avoid.</p></blockquote><p>The problem is the ability only absorbs physical damage for that very short time on that really long recast of 5 min.  It should be good for ALL damage over 60% of health.</p></blockquote><p>i might understand if it was the only ability, perhaps the heal portion could be adjusted but keep in mind there are 2 abilities, not just 1 that can be conveniently forgotten about.</p></blockquote><p>Well, the problem is both abilities are about worthless.</p><p>We already went over the hate gain proc from Lifetap heals and how that is worthless.  Now when you talk about the clicky it is on a very long reuse timer.  Part of the clicky is supposed to be a force target on the mob...which we know doesn't work on raid mobs.  So instead it is a 4 hate positions jump, pretty minimal and less than my Rescue that is on a lot less of a timer.  The other part of the clicky is the 8 second stoneskin to physical damage over 60%, something that due to a 5 min recast and not working on all types of damage becomes a drop in the bucket on anything.  Especially since it could be used for AEs if it worked on all damage since they are actually the most likely hits that will actually hit more than 60%.</p><p>Niether effect is doing what the original intent of the abilities were.  The clicky was intended to be a literal force target, the 8 sec immunity to physical damage was designed at a time where it was all about Physical damage.  The proc buff was designed to be a very large amount of AE producing hate.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>well, keep in mind the class changes at this time aren't for anything outside the scope of AA changes.</p>

[urgthock]

<p><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>urgthock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>IMO, the higher threshold is a bonus.  It makes it less likely some misc hit will take the stoneskin when your using it for something important.</p><p>Others might see that differently.</p></blockquote><p>Well, my question was more along the lines of, if you don't raid (which I don't anymore); how often are you actually getting hit for more than 60% of your health? It just seems that the high threshold simply makes the ability worthless in most (non-raid) circumstances.</p></blockquote><p><strong>you raided to get the mythical, it is a raiding piece of equipment not a heroic or solo one.</strong></p></blockquote><p>No I didn't and no it isn't. I am not asking for a replacement, I just had a question about it. No reason for you to get so upset.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>well, keep in mind the class changes at this time aren't for anything outside the scope of AA changes.</p></blockquote><p>Yep.  It is nice to see some feedback on some much needed changes though.  I know Zerks are in a similar boat for the most part, and if you get a chance to play with some Brawlers its amazing how far things feel like we have fallen way behind the curve.</p>

[LygerT]

<p><cite>urgthock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>urgthock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>IMO, the higher threshold is a bonus.  It makes it less likely some misc hit will take the stoneskin when your using it for something important.</p><p>Others might see that differently.</p></blockquote><p>Well, my question was more along the lines of, if you don't raid (which I don't anymore); how often are you actually getting hit for more than 60% of your health? It just seems that the high threshold simply makes the ability worthless in most (non-raid) circumstances.</p></blockquote><p><strong>you raided to get the mythical, it is a raiding piece of equipment not a heroic or solo one.</strong></p></blockquote><p>No I didn't and no it isn't. I am not asking for a replacement, I just had a question about it. No reason for you to get so upset.</p></blockquote><p>was there a fundamental change to mythical weapons in the last year i was completely unaware of? you must kill 3 epic raid mobs to attain the mythical weapon for the discussed buffs/attributes on it. or did they make it so you can get the mythical buff without actually having the mythical weapon?</p><p>even though they are green con mobs now, they are still epic raid encounters, green means weak and the mythical is now 10 levels old.</p><p>and i'm not upset in the least, just trying to give you perspective.</p><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>well, keep in mind the class changes at this time aren't for anything outside the scope of AA changes.</p></blockquote><p>Yep.  It is nice to see some feedback on some much needed changes though.  I know Zerks are in a similar boat for the most part, and if you get a chance to play with some Brawlers its amazing how far things feel like we have fallen way behind the curve.</p></blockquote><p>levelling a bruiser right now i can already see how the changes have drastically improved on them. even on my zerk alt(new server) i had a hard time taking on yellow ^^^ heroics with full masters and OP mastercrafted armor even in the mid level ranges 30-50+(when i was at level), bruiser takes the same mobs with adept I's and treasured armor that is 15 levels below me on. level 62 in 3 days play time, has AEs similar to my zerk and can easily move around. while that all doesn't totally apply to epic encounters, i can actually see that they are a decent all around tank because they take hits as well if not better than my plate wearing toons.</p>

[Yimway]

<p><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>was there a fundamental change to mythical weapons in the last year i was completely unaware of? you must kill 3 epic raid mobs to attain the mythical weapon for the discussed buffs/attributes on it. or did they make it so you can get the mythical buff without actually having the mythical weapon?</p></blockquote><p>No raiding required, you can convert your fabled version from the heroic quest to the envenerated one that gives the mythical buff.</p><p>Pretty sure that happened when you were away from game.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>i see, ignore my comment then. but it still is a level 80 ability that was attained based on raiding however.</p>

[Bruener]

<p><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Bruener wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>well, keep in mind the class changes at this time aren't for anything outside the scope of AA changes.</p></blockquote><p>Yep.  It is nice to see some feedback on some much needed changes though.  I know Zerks are in a similar boat for the most part, and if you get a chance to play with some Brawlers its amazing how far things feel like we have fallen way behind the curve.</p></blockquote><p>levelling a bruiser right now i can already see how the changes have drastically improved on them. even on my zerk alt(new server) i had a hard time taking on yellow ^^^ heroics with full masters and OP mastercrafted armor even in the mid level ranges 30-50+(when i was at level), bruiser takes the same mobs with adept I's and treasured armor that is 15 levels below me on. level 62 in 3 days play time, has AEs similar to my zerk and can easily move around. while that all doesn't totally apply to epic encounters, i can actually see that they are a decent all around tank because they take hits as well if not better than my plate wearing toons.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah the real big differences start happening in DoV raiding.  Getting hit way less often, taken less damage when they do get hit, and having a big arsenal of survivability tools on fast reuse is about the sum of it.</p>

[Gaarysal]

<p>Touch of death is what I'd really like to see changed. When I die it is very rarely to a large melee hit, it is usually to a multi attack of 20-30k hits which won't get absorbed because it is less than 60% but combined are enough to 1 shot. However there are a TON of magical AEs that hit for 60-100k+ if you are MT which the mythical would be great for if it worked on all damage. I'd also like to see it be a separate ability from the "force" target since it is useful for offtanking when I need to eat aes for various reasons I wouln't want to rip the named just to survive the ae lol.</p><p>The "force" target needs to be a 24 position hate increase + a massive threat amount. This way it will not be resisted by every single raid mob that is immune to force target and it is garunteed to do what the description says.</p><p>Recasts on both whether separate or same need to be adjusted as well.</p><p>Splurt should be changed to general DoT compression OR allow all spells to be cast on the run which is a major detriment compared to other fighters. Right now it just really doesn't do much for damage.</p><p>As for seething hatred, I like the idea of lifetap overflow into a ward and it adding the 300% threat as the ward depletes. Or possibly rework the ability in a whole new way that is as SKish as lifetaps generating threat. Possibly remove the effect alltogether and add an effect to make deathmarch raidwide with some additional effects such as ma, sma, flurry, pot, and/or cb?</p>

[Talathion]

<p>Give shadowknights a 25-33% Damage Reduction to all Non-Direct Spells.</p>