SK crit heals and Mythical weapon

melaine_dvarvensplitter · 08-07-2011, 10:01 AM

I know we get a 300% transfer to hate based on % of heal and back in RoK/TSO it worked well for additional hate. Now here we are in DoV, massive boosts to HP, DPS and hate is on the bottom again. It has been brought up about 1,2,3 inc... mage snags aggro, rescue, scout snaps aggro, sneering assault, etc... etc... group wipe due to aggro all over. I am hate built and mastered out, still working on adornments for hate while I replace armor and not wasting shards on adornments until I have my final gear.

I know hate isn't so much of an issue with dirge/coercer in the group or assassin/dirge/swash/coercer in the group but it then requires the almost perfect quad group and really I don't have time all day to build a group like that. I want to run a zone and like to get 5 more people and go and not deal with "perfect" groups. They take to long to form and pigeon hole people into classes.

Now it is time to revisit this spell and get our aggro generation is subpar when based on the aggro/dps curve and in TSO/RoK my personal aggro control was greater than it is now because of our heals critting. Instead of having the base heal crit at 130% *I think it's at that, not in game atm* drop it to 40% and allow the crit boost chance we get to boost it up to help our odds, or even just keep it at 50% and allow Crit Bonus to be primary ability to affect it. It would give additional Hate that is sooooooo needed and give SK some of there traditional feel back.

I think even the 40-50% base on heals would work for all tanks and use either CC or CB to be the only thing that affects the critting of heals. It would cut down on heals generated and keep the healers happy that complained that tanks were out healing them.

((More to come in a while)) Look for edits and/or bumps while I flesh this out.

Bruener · 08-07-2011, 01:28 PM

The problem is that our actual heals from lifetaps is miniscule, especially in raids. While tanking, and even though I take more damage than any of the other Fighters due to an imbalance of survivability big time, the most I actually see from Lifetaps heals is like 100 hps over the course of an encounter. If you break down a heal parse most of the heals come from Bloodletter if it procs, Crusaders Faith, Reaver, and Aura. None of these are lifetaps. Those 4 make up about 1200 hps if doing some good tanking, than you are lucky to get another 100 hps from actual Lifetaps.

Its very easy to do the math and see why this epic buff is the worst buff in the game for epic buffs. 100 hps x 300% = 300 hate per second. Its a joke really.

Now if you glance at every other Fighter class they are given a good chunk to reduce incoming damage while also getting something else. Guards proc a damage reduction and immunity to control effects. Zerkers have damage reduction, huge amount of hate figured from the damage they take, and 100% AE auto. Bruisers get like 10% physical damage reduction. Monks get mitigation increase and 50% strikethru. Paladins get their 10% damage reduction and 10% of damage taken returned as a heal.

SKs get the measly 300 hate per second average and a damage proc that does like 400 dps. Really quite bad.

The ability needs to be changed to what SOE had in mind with the original ability only it needs to be changed to something that works. The original ability was designed to provide a very big amount of agro that would work on everything engaged to the SK. The idea is that since SKs have no hate siphon they can rely on and have less taunts than other Fighters that SK hate is supposed to be self sufficient. DPS was supposed to be a factor in this equation as well, however SK dps is not any better than other Fighter DPS now and with DPS classes shot thru the roof ALL tanks to do any decent tanking have to have the same hate buffs/transfers as any other tank.

Bremer · 08-07-2011, 01:50 PM

Bruener wrote:

Zerkers have damage reduction, huge amount of hate figured from the damage they take, and 100% AE auto

Nobody knows if Berserkers get any hate at all from the effect and if it works it will most likely only apply to heals like the SK version, thus generating a similar amount of hate. If you want to trade your AE abilities like Grave Sacrament for 240+ AE attack Berserkers can get with their spells and AAs, I'd happily accept.

Gaarysal · 08-07-2011, 02:20 PM

The biggest problem is neither the sk nor zerker procs/buffs are parsable. If they were it would be much easier to test how much hate they actually generate and for the sk one, what it actually does proc off of. Also the zerker one is passive the sk one relies on a proc going off before we spike enough for one of our lifetaps to actually heal us as opposed to the 99% of our heals that get wasted since we are warded and 100% health.

It's not really a zerker vs sk issue, our mythical is very insignificant compared to all other classes. It needs a revamp and i'm sure many other people will say the same for their mythicals but as far as i've seen the mythicals are all but set in stone. When was the last time someone's mythical got changed besides maybe a bug fix?

And to the OP, either you have no clue how criticals work or i'm reading it wrong. Base heal crit of 130% means when you crit it applies 100% of the spell plus 30% more ex: spell hits for 100, it crits for 100 * 1.3 = 130. If the change you suggested went into effect 100 * .4 = 40 our heals would do less than a non crit. But this all doesn't even matter because fighter heals are hard coded to NOT crit whatsoever. Besides our lifetaps were always based off spell crit anyway.

Talathion · 08-07-2011, 03:14 PM

I don't know about you guys, but Zerkers have the worst hate of all fighter classes, its 25% AFTER MITIGATION/WARDS.

If I have a shaman, I usually take no damage until its a spike, thus generating far less hate.

If it was before mitigation/wards then we would be holding aggro like champs, but berserkers are on the lowest list of holding aggro.

Paladin>Monk>Guardian>Shadowknight>Bruiser>Berserker

Also, Berserkers Blood Rage has the SAME Issues as Shadowknights Lifetaps, its a pathetic amount of healing, not even 1%, it should critical as well.

OR they need to turn all Fighter heals into percents.

PS: I don't see why berserkers/shadowknights fight eachother, we have pretty much the same issues

Raviel · 08-07-2011, 06:38 PM

the berserker mythical reactive hate doesnt even parse, i never could tell if it was working or not

Talathion · 08-07-2011, 06:40 PM

Raviel@Guk wrote:

the berserker mythical reactive hate doesnt even parse, i never could tell if it was working or not

I know its only damage AFTER mitigation/wards and damage reduction...

melaine_dvarvensplitter · 08-07-2011, 07:09 PM

First I need to stop posting with 2 hrs sleep, and no coffee. I will put together a lot better post in the next day or so based on some of the feedback here and my testing.

SMILEY

Meshuggahx · 08-08-2011, 05:35 AM

Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes? you don't really see sk's asking for sk's changes on zerkers thread. zomg get your own threads!

On the subject though, hate does seem abit harder this exp for tanks. Like i always said "if you want to hold aggro efficiantly against dpser's you need to do at least 50% of their dps and taunt like mad" well nowadays 50% for some tanks is really hard to get (not really the case for me but still). hate in general need to be looked into because atm like 10k taunt worth like 2-3% on the hate meter at best that's kinda stupid.

Bremer · 08-08-2011, 08:01 AM

Meshuggahx@Butcherblock wrote:

Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes?

When the person who makes threads like "blabla is overpowered, I have never inspected the spell, I don't know what it does, I don't know what the recast is but Berserkers must be cheating and can get under the recast cap and that's why Berserkers have to be nerfed" makes unqualified statements about Berserkers it somehow provokes an objection.

Bruener · 08-08-2011, 11:51 AM

Bremer wrote:

Meshuggahx@Butcherblock wrote:
Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes?
When the person who makes threads like "blabla is overpowered, I have never inspected the spell, I don't know what it does, I don't know what the recast is but Berserkers must be cheating and can get under the recast cap and that's why Berserkers have to be nerfed" makes unqualified statements about Berserkers it somehow provokes an objection.

Lol, still hurt about Adrenaline? Should have just rolled with getting it changed in SF beta instead of letting them hammer it later....your bad.

The point I was making is that ALL other Fighters get some type of boost to survivability with their Mythical buff. They take less damage because of their buff in other words. Zerkers on top of the damage reduction also cap their AE auto attack, which is still a very nice ability, AND they get the hate generation (which is a lot more than what the SK mythical can produce) on top of it. Zerkers myth buff is nice, just like all the other Fighters is nice. I really don't care that with open wounds it means you can get over 200%, not all abilities are useful for all classes. It is still a very nice buff until level 80 pre-Myth buff, and Myth buff makes it obscolete because it gives you the buff for 100% of the time.

The SK mythical as I outlined is junk, especially for the content that the myth buffs were designed for...RAIDING. SK mythical buff should be changed to at least add like 10% damage reduction (maybe a magic damage reflect instead would be much cooler and SK'ish) along with making the hate gain idea actually work. There are a lot of ways that the AE hate mechanic could work---damage done, heals done to the SK, etc etc.

Yimway · 08-08-2011, 11:56 AM

Bruener wrote:

The SK mythical as I outlined is junk, especially for the content that the myth buffs were designed for...RAIDING. SK mythical buff should be changed to at least add like 10% damage reduction (maybe a magic damage reflect instead would be much cooler and SK'ish) along with making the hate gain idea actually work. There are a lot of ways that the AE hate mechanic could work---damage done, heals done to the SK, etc etc.

20% damage reduction from magical damage is something I could support for the SK mythical.

Reflects, particularly passive would be a _horrible_ idea.

Bremer · 08-08-2011, 12:11 PM

Bruener wrote:

Bremer wrote:
Meshuggahx@Butcherblock wrote:
Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes?
When the person who makes threads like "blabla is overpowered, I have never inspected the spell, I don't know what it does, I don't know what the recast is but Berserkers must be cheating and can get under the recast cap and that's why Berserkers have to be nerfed" makes unqualified statements about Berserkers it somehow provokes an objection.
Lol, still hurt about Adrenaline?

No, it's more a person that has " If you are an idiot that doesn't know healthy mechanics for Fighters STOP POSTING!!!" in his signature while he can't read spell descriptions (or rather posts about them without reading them).

Talathion · 08-08-2011, 12:15 PM

Bremer wrote:

Bruener wrote:
Bremer wrote:
Meshuggahx@Butcherblock wrote:
Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes?
When the person who makes threads like "blabla is overpowered, I have never inspected the spell, I don't know what it does, I don't know what the recast is but Berserkers must be cheating and can get under the recast cap and that's why Berserkers have to be nerfed" makes unqualified statements about Berserkers it somehow provokes an objection.
Lol, still hurt about Adrenaline?
No, it's more a person that has " If you are an idiot that doesn't know healthy mechanics for Fighters STOP POSTING!!!" in his signature while he can't read spell descriptions (or rather posts about them without reading them).

I don't remember SKs Lifetaps/Reaver draining 4% Mana Every 3 seconds for 30 seconds then stops working suddenly when ya run OOP, maybe they need to double the cost of lifetaps and make reaver drain 2% Power Every 2 seconds instead of Health, then only make reaver/lifetaps work when you are under a new spell called: Shadowknights Mania, if not under Mania your healing will be 0%, also, Only half your spells work unless your not under Shadowknights Mania, and anytime you use reaver, it only lasts 30 seconds, then under the other 30 seconds your no longer under Shadowknight's Mania Madness and for that 30 seconds and half your skills are unusable.

Grave Sacrament: Requires Shadowknight's Mania to use. (Example!)

Bruener · 08-08-2011, 02:58 PM

Bremer wrote:

Bruener wrote:
Bremer wrote:
Meshuggahx@Butcherblock wrote:
Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes?
When the person who makes threads like "blabla is overpowered, I have never inspected the spell, I don't know what it does, I don't know what the recast is but Berserkers must be cheating and can get under the recast cap and that's why Berserkers have to be nerfed" makes unqualified statements about Berserkers it somehow provokes an objection.
Lol, still hurt about Adrenaline?
No, it's more a person that has " If you are an idiot that doesn't know healthy mechanics for Fighters STOP POSTING!!!" in his signature while he can't read spell descriptions (or rather posts about them without reading them).

Maybe you should take the advice of the sig and not post in a thread about how weak the SK mythical buff is since you are obviously set on making it a Beserker issue. The fact is that even after mitigated/ward damage the Zerker buff provides way more hate than the SK buff because SK lifetaps are so tiny on the heal parse even after wards and there really aren't that many SK lifetaps.

The buff is extremely weak, and there is no way that after showing every other Fighter buff that you can argue that at all.

Yimway · 08-08-2011, 03:21 PM

Bruener wrote:

Maybe you should take the advice of the sig and not post in a thread about how weak the SK mythical buff is since you are obviously set on making it a Beserker issue. The fact is that even after mitigated/ward damage the Zerker buff provides way more hate than the SK buff because SK lifetaps are so tiny on the heal parse even after wards and there really aren't that many SK lifetaps.
The buff is extremely weak, and there is no way that after showing every other Fighter buff that you can argue that at all.

I had discussed this mechanic with an SK a while back.

The best idea we had was to make it so that SK lifetaps that are not used (cause he's at full health and warded) would be pooled into a 'Blood Ward' up to say 20% of the SK's total health.

I was basically for that if we removed % based lifetaps and tweaked them to flat values. I wasn't 100% sold as 2% lifetaps being banked into a decaying ward could in some cases be banked to quickly. Particularly if you consider the case of hitting a very large number of mobs.

I prefer though the previous idea of a DR for magical based damage as I think it has less potential to scale out of control.

Bruener · 08-08-2011, 04:52 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Bruener wrote:
Maybe you should take the advice of the sig and not post in a thread about how weak the SK mythical buff is since you are obviously set on making it a Beserker issue. The fact is that even after mitigated/ward damage the Zerker buff provides way more hate than the SK buff because SK lifetaps are so tiny on the heal parse even after wards and there really aren't that many SK lifetaps.
The buff is extremely weak, and there is no way that after showing every other Fighter buff that you can argue that at all.
I had discussed this mechanic with an SK a while back.
The best idea we had was to make it so that SK lifetaps that are not used (cause he's at full health and warded) would be pooled into a 'Blood Ward' up to say 20% of the SK's total health.
I was basically for that if we removed % based lifetaps and tweaked them to flat values. I wasn't 100% sold as 2% lifetaps being banked into a decaying ward could in some cases be banked to quickly. Particularly if you consider the case of hitting a very large number of mobs.
I prefer though the previous idea of a DR for magical based damage as I think it has less potential to scale out of control.

Really though the % based lifetaps are the only ones that actually scale properly. Flat lifetap values have NEVER scaled well, even when they could crit. Now with DoV the hp pool has practically tripled but the lifetap value has hardly increased at all.

% abilities scale the best. So a 2% lifetap will always be 2% health. Also, the 20% pool would always be a 20% of current health pool, it would always scale with where current health values are. I am sure some numbers would have to be tweaked to be in balance, but the point is once you find a pretty balanced % number it would always scale.

Really each lifetap right now should at least be made to a short duration ward that way they would actually do something. They could stay at their current level even and it would be a good benefit (excepting probably Tap Veins that would be too big of a ward on AE if it was kept at current level. Maybe the ability Tap Veins could be changed to a % of current health instead.

Regardless though, the Mythical buff is a joke and by far the weakest buff out there.

Bremer · 08-08-2011, 06:19 PM

Bruener wrote:

The fact is that even after mitigated/ward damage the Zerker buff provides way more hate than the SK buff

The fact that you don't have any numbers at all to backup your claim somewhat relativizes your "fact".

Felshades · 08-08-2011, 06:19 PM

Tala, you really hate SKs don't you?

Yimway · 08-08-2011, 06:30 PM

Bruener wrote:

% abilities scale the best. So a 2% lifetap will always be 2% health. Also, the 20% pool would always be a 20% of current health pool, it would always scale with where current health values are. I am sure some numbers would have to be tweaked to be in balance, but the point is once you find a pretty balanced % number it would always scale.

Surely you see the problem with how much you would potentially ward if you hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds?

Talathion · 08-08-2011, 06:44 PM

Sakiri@Crushbone wrote:

Tala, you really hate SKs don't you?

SKs have always hated berserkers.

Meshuggahx · 08-08-2011, 07:28 PM

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Sakiri@Crushbone wrote:
Tala, you really hate SKs don't you?
SKs have always hated berserkers.

No we don't. We just hate zerkers like you that keep on whining nerfing sk's instead of focusing on your own class.

Bruener · 08-08-2011, 08:05 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Bruener wrote:
% abilities scale the best. So a 2% lifetap will always be 2% health. Also, the 20% pool would always be a 20% of current health pool, it would always scale with where current health values are. I am sure some numbers would have to be tweaked to be in balance, but the point is once you find a pretty balanced % number it would always scale.
Surely you see the problem with how much you would potentially ward if you hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds?

I can hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds with my lifetaps?

There is 1 AE lifetap...that hits a max of 8 targets and the recast is 1 min. 2% for each mob means a whopping 16% of health at max amount of targets. In fact the number would definitely need to be more than 2% because Tap Veins hitting max targets for the lifetaps should be a full 100% heal amount. So needs to be more like 12.5% of max health for every target hit. Due to the warding system and healers keeping everything Green all the time there would be very few times at all that would actually create a full heal amount.

The spill over into a ward is actually a great idea if it could be done mechanically. It becomes a regen'ing ward than that has to be actively regenerated through Lifetaps. Keep in mind there are really only a few Lifetaps and it would take quite a bit of casting them to get anything like a 20% of max health ward. Most likely it would get eaten away just as fast as you could cast them like Aura, but it would be doing something versus the nothing it does now.

Bruener · 08-08-2011, 08:58 PM

Pulled out some numbers on actual Lifetap size heals and their recast with my AA build and self buffed at 46.2% reuse.

Harm Touch (3 points in EoF AA for lifetap) - 1696 heal on 2:30 recast, works out to be a whopping 11 heals per sec

Siphon Strike - 960-1600 heal on 20.5 sec, works out to a whopping 78 hps

Shadow Coil - 60 heal every 4 sec, due to reuse can be up constantly. Works out to 15 hps.

Devour Vitae - 2578-3057 heal and 784 heal every 10 sec. Works out to at most 384 hps (capped reuse ability) at top end

Unholy Blessing - 1261-1542 5 triggers can be recast 10 sec. Assuming all 5 triggers were used in the 10 seconds nets 771 hps at top end

Grim Harbinger - 960-1600 proc heal 4.3x per minute. Works out to 114 hps at top end

Tap Veins - 3739 heal per target 30 sec reuse capped. Works out to 124 hps per target (very few times more than 1 in raids).

So, at top end on everything assumig on a Boss raid mob we are talking a whopping 1500 hps roughly. Now assuming that your healers were afk and you got every bit of that heal miraculously constantly we are talking a meager 4500 hate per second from the Mythical buff.

Also assuming there was some type of spill over into ward if at max health for lets say 20% of max hp (60k health tank gets a 12k ward) it would take literally casting every lifetap we have, plus having a proc go off for Grim Habinger and for Unholy Blessing in order to fill it. This is assuming that you were taking no damage in the process as well. Lifetaps even than still seem weak.

Yimway · 08-09-2011, 01:43 PM

Bruener wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:
Bruener wrote:
% abilities scale the best. So a 2% lifetap will always be 2% health. Also, the 20% pool would always be a 20% of current health pool, it would always scale with where current health values are. I am sure some numbers would have to be tweaked to be in balance, but the point is once you find a pretty balanced % number it would always scale.
Surely you see the problem with how much you would potentially ward if you hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds?
I can hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds with my lifetaps?

I was thinking of reaver heals in with the lifetaps, since they effectively are designed to do the same thing, siphon heals to you.

Reaver like lifetaps is useless if you are already full on health.

If Reaver heals are explicitely not included, and you are only talking about your one aoe lifetap included, then I'm cool with it. Just need to be clear reaver hits would not be accumulated into the blood ward.

I feel like in this conversation from SK's reaver ticks are frequently overlooked. Is there a reason for this other than in raid settings it doesn't amount to alot? Is there something broken about the ability and it works differently than stated?

Banditman · 08-09-2011, 01:48 PM

Reaver just BARELY overcomes it's own health cost these days. You can't forget that Reaver *does* cost health to run.

Don't get me wrong, it does overcome it, but not by all that much, especially in situations with only one mob.

Yimway · 08-09-2011, 01:50 PM

Banditman wrote:

Reaver just BARELY overcomes it's own health cost these days. You can't forget that Reaver *does* cost health to run.
Don't get me wrong, it does overcome it, but not by all that much, especially in situations with only one mob.

To be clear, you mean when fighting single targets? Cause it seems to me when I fight large encounters it does fine.

Talathion · 08-09-2011, 01:53 PM

Banditman wrote:

Reaver just BARELY overcomes it's own health cost these days. You can't forget that Reaver *does* cost health to run.
Don't get me wrong, it does overcome it, but not by all that much, especially in situations with only one mob.

People are obviously bad at this game if they can't click 8 buttons in 3 seconds.

Davngr1 · 08-09-2011, 03:07 PM

yea sk's have taken a beating of nerfs and it's time to stop taking from the class. tbh i rather my sk get damage over anything else but i don't raid him so not sure what raiding sk's are looking for.

i think it's time to give hybrid .5 inate crit bonus for all the damage and remove the shield requirement for knight stance. after all with the high amount of crit bonu in game these days the 20% extra will hardly equate to a 20% boost but it would give the class some luster back.

Talathion · 08-09-2011, 03:43 PM

Davngr1 wrote:

yea sk's have taken a beating of nerfs and it's time to stop taking from the class. tbh i rather my sk get damage over anything else but i don't raid him so not sure what raiding sk's are looking for.
i think it's time to give hybrid .5 inate crit bonus for all the damage and remove the shield requirement for knight stance. after all with the high amount of crit bonu in game these days the 20% extra will hardly equate to a 20% boost but it would give the class some luster back.

Yeah, then lets just remove the berserker class since we won't have anything against the new SK class.

08-07-2011, 01:28 PM	#2
Bruener Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,010	The problem is that our actual heals from lifetaps is miniscule, especially in raids. While tanking, and even though I take more damage than any of the other Fighters due to an imbalance of survivability big time, the most I actually see from Lifetaps heals is like 100 hps over the course of an encounter. If you break down a heal parse most of the heals come from Bloodletter if it procs, Crusaders Faith, Reaver, and Aura. None of these are lifetaps. Those 4 make up about 1200 hps if doing some good tanking, than you are lucky to get another 100 hps from actual Lifetaps. Its very easy to do the math and see why this epic buff is the worst buff in the game for epic buffs. 100 hps x 300% = 300 hate per second. Its a joke really. Now if you glance at every other Fighter class they are given a good chunk to reduce incoming damage while also getting something else. Guards proc a damage reduction and immunity to control effects. Zerkers have damage reduction, huge amount of hate figured from the damage they take, and 100% AE auto. Bruisers get like 10% physical damage reduction. Monks get mitigation increase and 50% strikethru. Paladins get their 10% damage reduction and 10% of damage taken returned as a heal. SKs get the measly 300 hate per second average and a damage proc that does like 400 dps. Really quite bad. The ability needs to be changed to what SOE had in mind with the original ability only it needs to be changed to something that works. The original ability was designed to provide a very big amount of agro that would work on everything engaged to the SK. The idea is that since SKs have no hate siphon they can rely on and have less taunts than other Fighters that SK hate is supposed to be self sufficient. DPS was supposed to be a factor in this equation as well, however SK dps is not any better than other Fighter DPS now and with DPS classes shot thru the roof ALL tanks to do any decent tanking have to have the same hate buffs/transfers as any other tank. __________________

08-07-2011, 01:50 PM	#3
Bremer Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,902	Bruener wrote: Zerkers have damage reduction, huge amount of hate figured from the damage they take, and 100% AE auto Nobody knows if Berserkers get any hate at all from the effect and if it works it will most likely only apply to heals like the SK version, thus generating a similar amount of hate. If you want to trade your AE abilities like Grave Sacrament for 240+ AE attack Berserkers can get with their spells and AAs, I'd happily accept.

08-07-2011, 06:40 PM	#7
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	Raviel@Guk wrote: the berserker mythical reactive hate doesnt even parse, i never could tell if it was working or not I know its only damage AFTER mitigation/wards and damage reduction...

08-08-2011, 08:01 AM	#10
Bremer Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,902	Meshuggahx@Butcherblock wrote: Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes? When the person who makes threads like "blabla is overpowered, I have never inspected the spell, I don't know what it does, I don't know what the recast is but Berserkers must be cheating and can get under the recast cap and that's why Berserkers have to be nerfed" makes unqualified statements about Berserkers it somehow provokes an objection.

08-08-2011, 11:51 AM	#11
Bruener Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,010	Bremer wrote: Meshuggahx@Butcherblock wrote: Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes? When the person who makes threads like "blabla is overpowered, I have never inspected the spell, I don't know what it does, I don't know what the recast is but Berserkers must be cheating and can get under the recast cap and that's why Berserkers have to be nerfed" makes unqualified statements about Berserkers it somehow provokes an objection. Lol, still hurt about Adrenaline? Should have just rolled with getting it changed in SF beta instead of letting them hammer it later....your bad. The point I was making is that ALL other Fighters get some type of boost to survivability with their Mythical buff. They take less damage because of their buff in other words. Zerkers on top of the damage reduction also cap their AE auto attack, which is still a very nice ability, AND they get the hate generation (which is a lot more than what the SK mythical can produce) on top of it. Zerkers myth buff is nice, just like all the other Fighters is nice. I really don't care that with open wounds it means you can get over 200%, not all abilities are useful for all classes. It is still a very nice buff until level 80 pre-Myth buff, and Myth buff makes it obscolete because it gives you the buff for 100% of the time. The SK mythical as I outlined is junk, especially for the content that the myth buffs were designed for...RAIDING. SK mythical buff should be changed to at least add like 10% damage reduction (maybe a magic damage reflect instead would be much cooler and SK'ish) along with making the hate gain idea actually work. There are a lot of ways that the AE hate mechanic could work---damage done, heals done to the SK, etc etc. __________________

08-07-2011, 10:01 AM	#1
melaine_dvarvensplitter Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 671	I know we get a 300% transfer to hate based on % of heal and back in RoK/TSO it worked well for additional hate. Now here we are in DoV, massive boosts to HP, DPS and hate is on the bottom again. It has been brought up about 1,2,3 inc... mage snags aggro, rescue, scout snaps aggro, sneering assault, etc... etc... group wipe due to aggro all over. I am hate built and mastered out, still working on adornments for hate while I replace armor and not wasting shards on adornments until I have my final gear. I know hate isn't so much of an issue with dirge/coercer in the group or assassin/dirge/swash/coercer in the group but it then requires the almost perfect quad group and really I don't have time all day to build a group like that. I want to run a zone and like to get 5 more people and go and not deal with "perfect" groups. They take to long to form and pigeon hole people into classes. Now it is time to revisit this spell and get our aggro generation is subpar when based on the aggro/dps curve and in TSO/RoK my personal aggro control was greater than it is now because of our heals critting. Instead of having the base heal crit at 130% I think it's at that, not in game atm drop it to 40% and allow the crit boost chance we get to boost it up to help our odds, or even just keep it at 50% and allow Crit Bonus to be primary ability to affect it. It would give additional Hate that is sooooooo needed and give SK some of there traditional feel back. I think even the 40-50% base on heals would work for all tanks and use either CC or CB to be the only thing that affects the critting of heals. It would cut down on heals generated and keep the healers happy that complained that tanks were out healing them. ((More to come in a while)) Look for edits and/or bumps while I flesh this out.

08-07-2011, 02:20 PM	#4
Gaarysal Server: Permafrost Guild: Fist of the Empire Rank: Ass Kicking Expert Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 166	The biggest problem is neither the sk nor zerker procs/buffs are parsable. If they were it would be much easier to test how much hate they actually generate and for the sk one, what it actually does proc off of. Also the zerker one is passive the sk one relies on a proc going off before we spike enough for one of our lifetaps to actually heal us as opposed to the 99% of our heals that get wasted since we are warded and 100% health. It's not really a zerker vs sk issue, our mythical is very insignificant compared to all other classes. It needs a revamp and i'm sure many other people will say the same for their mythicals but as far as i've seen the mythicals are all but set in stone. When was the last time someone's mythical got changed besides maybe a bug fix? And to the OP, either you have no clue how criticals work or i'm reading it wrong. Base heal crit of 130% means when you crit it applies 100% of the spell plus 30% more ex: spell hits for 100, it crits for 100 * 1.3 = 130. If the change you suggested went into effect 100 * .4 = 40 our heals would do less than a non crit. But this all doesn't even matter because fighter heals are hard coded to NOT crit whatsoever. Besides our lifetaps were always based off spell crit anyway.

08-07-2011, 03:14 PM	#5
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	I don't know about you guys, but Zerkers have the worst hate of all fighter classes, its 25% AFTER MITIGATION/WARDS. If I have a shaman, I usually take no damage until its a spike, thus generating far less hate. If it was before mitigation/wards then we would be holding aggro like champs, but berserkers are on the lowest list of holding aggro. Paladin>Monk>Guardian>Shadowknight>Bruiser>Berserker Also, Berserkers Blood Rage has the SAME Issues as Shadowknights Lifetaps, its a pathetic amount of healing, not even 1%, it should critical as well. OR they need to turn all Fighter heals into percents. PS: I don't see why berserkers/shadowknights fight eachother, we have pretty much the same issues

08-07-2011, 06:38 PM	#6
Raviel Server: Guk Guild: Dream Rank: Member Alt Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 188	the berserker mythical reactive hate doesnt even parse, i never could tell if it was working or not

08-07-2011, 07:09 PM	#8
melaine_dvarvensplitter Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 671	First I need to stop posting with 2 hrs sleep, and no coffee. I will put together a lot better post in the next day or so based on some of the feedback here and my testing.

08-08-2011, 05:35 AM	#9
Meshuggahx Server: Butcherblock Guild: Insomniacs Rank: Alt Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 52	Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes? you don't really see sk's asking for sk's changes on zerkers thread. zomg get your own threads! On the subject though, hate does seem abit harder this exp for tanks. Like i always said "if you want to hold aggro efficiantly against dpser's you need to do at least 50% of their dps and taunt like mad" well nowadays 50% for some tanks is really hard to get (not really the case for me but still). hate in general need to be looked into because atm like 10k taunt worth like 2-3% on the hate meter at best that's kinda stupid.

08-08-2011, 11:56 AM	#12
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Bruener wrote: The SK mythical as I outlined is junk, especially for the content that the myth buffs were designed for...RAIDING. SK mythical buff should be changed to at least add like 10% damage reduction (maybe a magic damage reflect instead would be much cooler and SK'ish) along with making the hate gain idea actually work. There are a lot of ways that the AE hate mechanic could work---damage done, heals done to the SK, etc etc. 20% damage reduction from magical damage is something I could support for the SK mythical. Reflects, particularly passive would be a _horrible_ idea. __________________

08-08-2011, 12:11 PM	#13
Bremer Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,902	Bruener wrote: Bremer wrote: Meshuggahx@Butcherblock wrote: Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes? When the person who makes threads like "blabla is overpowered, I have never inspected the spell, I don't know what it does, I don't know what the recast is but Berserkers must be cheating and can get under the recast cap and that's why Berserkers have to be nerfed" makes unqualified statements about Berserkers it somehow provokes an objection. Lol, still hurt about Adrenaline? No, it's more a person that has " If you are an idiot that doesn't know healthy mechanics for Fighters STOP POSTING!!!" in his signature while he can't read spell descriptions (or rather posts about them without reading them).

08-08-2011, 12:15 PM	#14
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	Bremer wrote: Bruener wrote: Bremer wrote: Meshuggahx@Butcherblock wrote: Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes? When the person who makes threads like "blabla is overpowered, I have never inspected the spell, I don't know what it does, I don't know what the recast is but Berserkers must be cheating and can get under the recast cap and that's why Berserkers have to be nerfed" makes unqualified statements about Berserkers it somehow provokes an objection. Lol, still hurt about Adrenaline? No, it's more a person that has " If you are an idiot that doesn't know healthy mechanics for Fighters STOP POSTING!!!" in his signature while he can't read spell descriptions (or rather posts about them without reading them). I don't remember SKs Lifetaps/Reaver draining 4% Mana Every 3 seconds for 30 seconds then stops working suddenly when ya run OOP, maybe they need to double the cost of lifetaps and make reaver drain 2% Power Every 2 seconds instead of Health, then only make reaver/lifetaps work when you are under a new spell called: Shadowknights Mania, if not under Mania your healing will be 0%, also, Only half your spells work unless your not under Shadowknights Mania, and anytime you use reaver, it only lasts 30 seconds, then under the other 30 seconds your no longer under Shadowknight's Mania Madness and for that 30 seconds and half your skills are unusable. Grave Sacrament: Requires Shadowknight's Mania to use. (Example!)

08-08-2011, 02:58 PM	#15
Bruener Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,010	Bremer wrote: Bruener wrote: Bremer wrote: Meshuggahx@Butcherblock wrote: Why everytime sk's ask for sk changes, zerkers have to step in and ask for zerker changes? When the person who makes threads like "blabla is overpowered, I have never inspected the spell, I don't know what it does, I don't know what the recast is but Berserkers must be cheating and can get under the recast cap and that's why Berserkers have to be nerfed" makes unqualified statements about Berserkers it somehow provokes an objection. Lol, still hurt about Adrenaline? No, it's more a person that has " If you are an idiot that doesn't know healthy mechanics for Fighters STOP POSTING!!!" in his signature while he can't read spell descriptions (or rather posts about them without reading them). Maybe you should take the advice of the sig and not post in a thread about how weak the SK mythical buff is since you are obviously set on making it a Beserker issue. The fact is that even after mitigated/ward damage the Zerker buff provides way more hate than the SK buff because SK lifetaps are so tiny on the heal parse even after wards and there really aren't that many SK lifetaps. The buff is extremely weak, and there is no way that after showing every other Fighter buff that you can argue that at all. __________________

08-08-2011, 03:21 PM	#16
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Bruener wrote: Maybe you should take the advice of the sig and not post in a thread about how weak the SK mythical buff is since you are obviously set on making it a Beserker issue. The fact is that even after mitigated/ward damage the Zerker buff provides way more hate than the SK buff because SK lifetaps are so tiny on the heal parse even after wards and there really aren't that many SK lifetaps. The buff is extremely weak, and there is no way that after showing every other Fighter buff that you can argue that at all. I had discussed this mechanic with an SK a while back. The best idea we had was to make it so that SK lifetaps that are not used (cause he's at full health and warded) would be pooled into a 'Blood Ward' up to say 20% of the SK's total health. I was basically for that if we removed % based lifetaps and tweaked them to flat values. I wasn't 100% sold as 2% lifetaps being banked into a decaying ward could in some cases be banked to quickly. Particularly if you consider the case of hitting a very large number of mobs. I prefer though the previous idea of a DR for magical based damage as I think it has less potential to scale out of control. __________________

08-08-2011, 04:52 PM	#17
Bruener Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,010	Atan@Unrest wrote: Bruener wrote: Maybe you should take the advice of the sig and not post in a thread about how weak the SK mythical buff is since you are obviously set on making it a Beserker issue. The fact is that even after mitigated/ward damage the Zerker buff provides way more hate than the SK buff because SK lifetaps are so tiny on the heal parse even after wards and there really aren't that many SK lifetaps. The buff is extremely weak, and there is no way that after showing every other Fighter buff that you can argue that at all. I had discussed this mechanic with an SK a while back. The best idea we had was to make it so that SK lifetaps that are not used (cause he's at full health and warded) would be pooled into a 'Blood Ward' up to say 20% of the SK's total health. I was basically for that if we removed % based lifetaps and tweaked them to flat values. I wasn't 100% sold as 2% lifetaps being banked into a decaying ward could in some cases be banked to quickly. Particularly if you consider the case of hitting a very large number of mobs. I prefer though the previous idea of a DR for magical based damage as I think it has less potential to scale out of control. Really though the % based lifetaps are the only ones that actually scale properly. Flat lifetap values have NEVER scaled well, even when they could crit. Now with DoV the hp pool has practically tripled but the lifetap value has hardly increased at all. % abilities scale the best. So a 2% lifetap will always be 2% health. Also, the 20% pool would always be a 20% of current health pool, it would always scale with where current health values are. I am sure some numbers would have to be tweaked to be in balance, but the point is once you find a pretty balanced % number it would always scale. Really each lifetap right now should at least be made to a short duration ward that way they would actually do something. They could stay at their current level even and it would be a good benefit (excepting probably Tap Veins that would be too big of a ward on AE if it was kept at current level. Maybe the ability Tap Veins could be changed to a % of current health instead. Regardless though, the Mythical buff is a joke and by far the weakest buff out there. __________________

08-08-2011, 06:19 PM	#18
Bremer Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,902	Bruener wrote: The fact is that even after mitigated/ward damage the Zerker buff provides way more hate than the SK buff The fact that you don't have any numbers at all to backup your claim somewhat relativizes your "fact".

08-08-2011, 06:19 PM	#19
Felshades Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,887	Tala, you really hate SKs don't you?

08-08-2011, 06:30 PM	#20
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Bruener wrote: % abilities scale the best. So a 2% lifetap will always be 2% health. Also, the 20% pool would always be a 20% of current health pool, it would always scale with where current health values are. I am sure some numbers would have to be tweaked to be in balance, but the point is once you find a pretty balanced % number it would always scale. Surely you see the problem with how much you would potentially ward if you hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds? __________________

08-08-2011, 06:44 PM	#21
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	Sakiri@Crushbone wrote: Tala, you really hate SKs don't you? SKs have always hated berserkers.

08-08-2011, 07:28 PM	#22
Meshuggahx Server: Butcherblock Guild: Insomniacs Rank: Alt Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 52	Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: Sakiri@Crushbone wrote: Tala, you really hate SKs don't you? SKs have always hated berserkers. No we don't. We just hate zerkers like you that keep on whining nerfing sk's instead of focusing on your own class.

08-08-2011, 08:05 PM	#23
Bruener Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,010	Atan@Unrest wrote: Bruener wrote: % abilities scale the best. So a 2% lifetap will always be 2% health. Also, the 20% pool would always be a 20% of current health pool, it would always scale with where current health values are. I am sure some numbers would have to be tweaked to be in balance, but the point is once you find a pretty balanced % number it would always scale. Surely you see the problem with how much you would potentially ward if you hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds? I can hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds with my lifetaps? There is 1 AE lifetap...that hits a max of 8 targets and the recast is 1 min. 2% for each mob means a whopping 16% of health at max amount of targets. In fact the number would definitely need to be more than 2% because Tap Veins hitting max targets for the lifetaps should be a full 100% heal amount. So needs to be more like 12.5% of max health for every target hit. Due to the warding system and healers keeping everything Green all the time there would be very few times at all that would actually create a full heal amount. The spill over into a ward is actually a great idea if it could be done mechanically. It becomes a regen'ing ward than that has to be actively regenerated through Lifetaps. Keep in mind there are really only a few Lifetaps and it would take quite a bit of casting them to get anything like a 20% of max health ward. Most likely it would get eaten away just as fast as you could cast them like Aura, but it would be doing something versus the nothing it does now. __________________

08-08-2011, 08:58 PM	#24
Bruener Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,010	Pulled out some numbers on actual Lifetap size heals and their recast with my AA build and self buffed at 46.2% reuse. Harm Touch (3 points in EoF AA for lifetap) - 1696 heal on 2:30 recast, works out to be a whopping 11 heals per sec Siphon Strike - 960-1600 heal on 20.5 sec, works out to a whopping 78 hps Shadow Coil - 60 heal every 4 sec, due to reuse can be up constantly. Works out to 15 hps. Devour Vitae - 2578-3057 heal and 784 heal every 10 sec. Works out to at most 384 hps (capped reuse ability) at top end Unholy Blessing - 1261-1542 5 triggers can be recast 10 sec. Assuming all 5 triggers were used in the 10 seconds nets 771 hps at top end Grim Harbinger - 960-1600 proc heal 4.3x per minute. Works out to 114 hps at top end Tap Veins - 3739 heal per target 30 sec reuse capped. Works out to 124 hps per target (very few times more than 1 in raids). So, at top end on everything assumig on a Boss raid mob we are talking a whopping 1500 hps roughly. Now assuming that your healers were afk and you got every bit of that heal miraculously constantly we are talking a meager 4500 hate per second from the Mythical buff. Also assuming there was some type of spill over into ward if at max health for lets say 20% of max hp (60k health tank gets a 12k ward) it would take literally casting every lifetap we have, plus having a proc go off for Grim Habinger and for Unholy Blessing in order to fill it. This is assuming that you were taking no damage in the process as well. Lifetaps even than still seem weak. __________________

08-09-2011, 01:43 PM	#25
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Bruener wrote: Atan@Unrest wrote: Bruener wrote: % abilities scale the best. So a 2% lifetap will always be 2% health. Also, the 20% pool would always be a 20% of current health pool, it would always scale with where current health values are. I am sure some numbers would have to be tweaked to be in balance, but the point is once you find a pretty balanced % number it would always scale. Surely you see the problem with how much you would potentially ward if you hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds? I can hit 10 mobs every 2 seconds with my lifetaps? I was thinking of reaver heals in with the lifetaps, since they effectively are designed to do the same thing, siphon heals to you. Reaver like lifetaps is useless if you are already full on health. If Reaver heals are explicitely not included, and you are only talking about your one aoe lifetap included, then I'm cool with it. Just need to be clear reaver hits would not be accumulated into the blood ward. I feel like in this conversation from SK's reaver ticks are frequently overlooked. Is there a reason for this other than in raid settings it doesn't amount to alot? Is there something broken about the ability and it works differently than stated? __________________

08-09-2011, 01:48 PM	#26
Banditman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,459	Reaver just BARELY overcomes it's own health cost these days. You can't forget that Reaver does cost health to run. Don't get me wrong, it does overcome it, but not by all that much, especially in situations with only one mob. __________________

08-09-2011, 01:50 PM	#27
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Banditman wrote: Reaver just BARELY overcomes it's own health cost these days. You can't forget that Reaver does cost health to run. Don't get me wrong, it does overcome it, but not by all that much, especially in situations with only one mob. To be clear, you mean when fighting single targets? Cause it seems to me when I fight large encounters it does fine. __________________

08-09-2011, 01:53 PM	#28
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	Banditman wrote: Reaver just BARELY overcomes it's own health cost these days. You can't forget that Reaver does cost health to run. Don't get me wrong, it does overcome it, but not by all that much, especially in situations with only one mob. People are obviously bad at this game if they can't click 8 buttons in 3 seconds.

08-09-2011, 03:07 PM	#29
Davngr1 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,179	yea sk's have taken a beating of nerfs and it's time to stop taking from the class. tbh i rather my sk get damage over anything else but i don't raid him so not sure what raiding sk's are looking for. i think it's time to give hybrid .5 inate crit bonus for all the damage and remove the shield requirement for knight stance. after all with the high amount of crit bonu in game these days the 20% extra will hardly equate to a 20% boost but it would give the class some luster back. __________________

08-09-2011, 03:43 PM	#30
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	Davngr1 wrote: yea sk's have taken a beating of nerfs and it's time to stop taking from the class. tbh i rather my sk get damage over anything else but i don't raid him so not sure what raiding sk's are looking for. i think it's time to give hybrid .5 inate crit bonus for all the damage and remove the shield requirement for knight stance. after all with the high amount of crit bonu in game these days the 20% extra will hardly equate to a 20% boost but it would give the class some luster back. Yeah, then lets just remove the berserker class since we won't have anything against the new SK class.