Rogue Wis-Line Changes [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Geothe

09-21-2010, 10:25 AM

Here are the patch notes:<ul><li>[Fan Faire Feedback] “Freehand Reversal” now grants Weapon Damage Bonus instead of double attack. </li><li>[Fan Faire Feedback] “Unencumbrance” now grants Weapon Damage Bonus instead of double attack. </li><li>[Fan Faire Feedback] “Coule” is now a frontal combat art which deals damage and reduces the target's accuracy substantially for a short duration. It has a very low chance to miss.</li></ul>Now, unfortunately my character copies are bugged out and I cant log into them. But with a level 1 character, it looks like Freehand Reversal grants 24% base damage (along with 1% Riposte per point). And I think only the Riposte chance increases with more points spent, not the base damage, someone please correct me if I'm wrong there.Unencumbrance grants 2.6% base damage per point, for a total of 26% with 10 points spent.Coule reduces target's accuracy by 30% for 20 seconds, and has a 1 minute recast.So overall, it looks like a 50% base damage increase on autoattacks. However, the empty off-hand requirement is still present.

Geothe

09-21-2010, 10:41 AM

Okay, my feedback.a 50% base damage increase is not even close to being high enough to make up for the loss of an offhand weapon!An empty weapon slot means you lose out on Agility, Blue Stats, and Procs. Completely lose out on them.Yes, a 50% base damage increase when using only 1 weapon does make the pure autoattack damage equal as if you were Dual Wielding, if all other stats remain the same. But that doesn't take into account the loss of stats/procs resulting from a completely empty equipment slot!Something else needs to be added to the Wis line to balance out for these losses.Increasing the base damage from Unencumbrance to 5/point instead is an option.Or something else. But there NEEDs to be something else.

Nevao

09-21-2010, 11:24 AM

I haven't seen it myself yet (will be checking tonight), but I'm being told that Coule is positional, frontal/flanking.If that's the case it will be harder for Brigs to use this since we have so many rear/flanking attacks that we rarely uses Gouge (our only frontal/flanking). On the other hand Swashies only have one true back attack and this will flow into their natural positioning.That said can we get this restriction removed so that it's ease of use is more consistent given it is in a "shared" AA Line?

Treznet

09-21-2010, 11:31 AM

Why should rogues be the only class that has to have a handicap to use a aa line? We lose stats off the offhand weapon, procs, and an adornment slot. You cant balance that unless we have weapons that are designed for us to use with our off hand empty. Tanks are the only other class that I am aware of that are limited to having one weapon when they have a shield. They get the benifit of being more defensive. What is our benifit? We get to possibly break even with what we can do with 2 weapons with 1? The idea is outdated , I think the whole aa line just needs removed and changed. Other classes that had empty offhand restrictions had theirs removed. Why are rogues the only ones that still have one?

Chefren

09-21-2010, 11:55 AM

While I don't have a Rogue class character, it still seems strange that they change this away from double attack while at the same time changing how double attack works.

Geothe

09-21-2010, 12:18 PM

The offhand empty requirement remaining on this line is rather moronic still though, I must say.Like previous poster mentioned, all other classes have had the stupid equipment requirements removed from all of their AA lines long ago, and yet this one remains? Its just illogical.-Remove the Empty offhand Requirement.-Change Freehand Reversal to: 2% Base Weapon Damage, 1% Accuracy (or maybe 0.8%) per point, 10 points possible.-Change Unencumbrance to: 3% Double Attack per point, 10 points possible.-Remove the positional requirement from Coule.

Nevao

09-21-2010, 12:19 PM

<cite>Treznet wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why should rogues be the only class that has to have a handicap to use a aa line? We lose stats off the offhand weapon, procs, and an adornment slot. You cant balance that unless we have weapons that are designed for us to use with our off hand empty. Tanks are the only other class that I am aware of that are limited to having one weapon when they have a shield. They get the benifit of being more defensive. What is our benifit? We get to possibly break even with what we can do with 2 weapons with 1? The idea is outdated , I think the whole aa line just needs removed and changed. Other classes that had empty offhand restrictions had theirs removed. Why are rogues the only ones that still have one?</blockquote>I'm honestly not bothered by the loss of an offhand if they can keep the overall damage balanced/slightly increased. If they removed the off hand requirement they would have to find a whole new mechanic for the AA's. They are not going to give us that big a boost to our DPS. Ideally the changes to the line should leave us close to where we are (the complaint has been the line is completely useless not rougues are out of balance with other "T2" classes) but provide some cool benefit. Any hopes that this is going to give us a significant DPS boost are unrealistic. The more I look at this it appears to be a Solo/DPS tank style line meant to give us more flexability on that front while still providing some benefit for normal DPS situations. For leveling it probably will be an effective line.Looking at it from a raiding perspective the biggest problem I see, and this is to several people's point, is that we're more or less losing out on 60 someodd agility, some health/power, and some combination of 11 crit, 11 da, 6% potency, 6% critbonus. That's assuming decent weapons from this expansion that are adorned. I'm discouting any lost proc given decent hit rates/damage #s from Lunge Reversal. I'm not sold that MT survivability increase from the new and improved Coule makes us for that loss (to me it's a new toy and shouldn't be used for balancing line damage), but I do think it's a worthy end line in of itself. I also think it's possible to adjust the line to keep current damage lines in level and make up for the non-auto attack effects lost by not having a second weapon. Take the riposte portion out of Freehand Reversal and add a potency increase that scales by level and I think you'll make up for those "missing stats". Add enough and you probably can make up for any lost abilities in the STR line or the lost health in the stamina line.Doing that gives us increased raid surviability in the new AA endline (which does need tweaking) and keeps ous close to our current levels (meaning less balance repurcussions). Pull that off and we have a viable line, but not a must have line. My guess is that's what their ultimate goal with these changes are. But what do I know?

Nevao

09-21-2010, 12:24 PM

<cite>Einina@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I don't have a Rogue class character, it still seems strange that they change this away from double attack while at the same time changing how double attack works.</blockquote>Yeah, it is a bit strange. I wonder if they happened in unconnected silos of development work. Either way the more I think about it the more surprised I will be if DA goes through as is. Multi Attack really does seem like something that needs to be introduced with other "over cap" items, otherwise it's going to wreck havoc on itemzation and balance (yeah I'm coming around to that point).

Spite

09-21-2010, 01:09 PM

End-game this change does not work. I parsed it out on Epic Training dummies last night and with just 25 AGI and 2.5 CB on my off hand the Dual-Weild was about 200DPS more than One-Handed.Rogue AA choices are pretty poor as we have 2 desired lines end-game after this change. The stamina line (sheild requirement), the Wis line (open off-hand), and the Int line (De-aggro? with up 29% xfer?) are all at odds both with eachother and with endgame mechanics.My suggestion would be either revamp and remove the off-hand empty and revamp the line or change it to working with a sheild equipped off-hand. The sheild option will allow the rouge to not loose the stats of the offhand without an offhand weapon.bottom line is if you leave it like this, why even bother to change it at all.

Darkor

09-21-2010, 01:09 PM

Thanks for changing the line, unfortunally its still not where it should be. Right now dual wielding is STILL more dps than wisdom line. The question is, why would someone spend 20 AAs to have LESS dps?I dont even mind the weapon restriction. I think it owns running arround with just a 1 hander, but it must be worth it. Several people did parses allready and the dps was slightly less than dual wielding. You need to do the maths guys. Right now the change was meant good from you Devs, but its still useless. Please think about it.

Treznet

09-21-2010, 02:19 PM

I hate the weapon restriction, it just leaves us open to be left behind in the future. There is no other class that leaves a slot empty I fail to see how this could be a good thing even if the melee dps is slightly more which it isnt atm.

Aule

09-21-2010, 02:22 PM

Amusing, all the arguments about why this change isn't good enough are the same arguments about why two-handers weren't worth equipping from ROK forward. You would think at some point that SOE would learn.

Gungo

09-21-2010, 02:27 PM

It would be cool if you could equip an offhand and keep the stats/procs, but only use the mainhand for auto atk.This should also gave rogues a slight dps increase which would be fine. It still would require them to get 2 weapons and would be unique line.In other words 50% weapon damage bonus on mainhand weapon. This is the only weapon that will auto atk at an increased damage.The offhand weapon can be equipped and stats and procs fire off the mainhand, but it is only used as a balance, like a symbol And the appearance would be sheathed in combat.

Darkor

09-21-2010, 02:33 PM

Treznet is right thou. Not only is this the last unchanged restriction aa line in game. It also reduces our choices in future when new good weapons come. A change like the brawler or warrior tree is more in line here. Remove the restriction but make the effect not as powerfull.

Geothe

09-21-2010, 03:06 PM

Ok. So the general problems with this Wis-line change:A) Still requires offhand weapon slot to be empty. This is bad because you completely lose out on Green/Blue stats, Procs, and adornments from this slot, resulting in a net loss of DPS.B) Taking the Wis line will result in a NET DECREASE in DPS. I still don't understand what kind of convoluted thoughts were going through developers' minds when they made this change. It is completely illogical to invest 24 AA points and end up with lower DPS than what you started with. This was a good change how?! /boggleThis entire line needs to be adjusted so that it will net an increase in DPS, as that is the entire point in spending AAs in an DPS line. lol.Remove offhand requirement. This is a relic of the past and shouldnt exist anymore. Such requirements were removed for every other class in the game, but kept for Rogues for some assinine reason.The bonuses obviously will need to be decreased if 2 weapons are able to be used. Can follow the same principals from other scout AA trees.Predators are able to buff 24%(?) base damage mod by spending 8 AA points. Allow Rogues to do a similar increase in the Wis line by spending 10 Points granting 2.5% base mod per point.Preds are also able to buff AE autoattack to 28%(I believe?). Allow Rogues to buff Double Attack further (with the new multiattack change this is benefitial) do 30% with 10 points, 3% per point.Swap the order so that DA bonus is granted earlier in the tree and the base damage increase later in the tree.But in general, as stands, the Wis-line remains a moronic choice for any non-mentally-deficient Rogue to take.

Gaige

09-21-2010, 03:14 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Predators are able to buff 24%(?) base damage mod by spending 8 AA points. Allow Rogues to do a similar increase in the Wis line by spending 10 Points granting 2.5% base mod per point.Preds are also able to buff AE autoattack to 28%(I believe?). Allow Rogues to buff Double Attack further (with the new multiattack change this is benefitial) do 30% with 10 points, 3% per point.Swap the order so that DA bonus is granted earlier in the tree and the base damage increase later in the tree.</blockquote>So go ahead and explain why rogue AAs should be better for DPS than predator AAs?

Geothe

09-21-2010, 03:28 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Predators are able to buff 24%(?) base damage mod by spending 8 AA points. Allow Rogues to do a similar increase in the Wis line by spending 10 Points granting 2.5% base mod per point.Preds are also able to buff AE autoattack to 28%(I believe?). Allow Rogues to buff Double Attack further (with the new multiattack change this is benefitial) do 30% with 10 points, 3% per point.Swap the order so that DA bonus is granted earlier in the tree and the base damage increase later in the tree.</blockquote>So go ahead and explain why rogue AAs should be better for DPS than predator AAs?</blockquote>Wow Gaige, really? Flurry your head into a wall too many times?Was examples because annoying working with non-even numbers, but ok.Preds get 24% base, change rogue to 2.4% base per point! 24% maxed out.That better for your annoying self?

Aral

09-21-2010, 03:44 PM

50% and still must remove the offhand weapon. L O L.Before I checked the boards to see the details I was guessing either 10-15% bonuses total keeping weapon, or 70% with losing weapon.How stupid does a dev need to be to not understand this? You don't build an AA line which has DPS as its ONLY purpose, and set it up to result in a net loss of damage output!How many times do we need to demonstrate this with data before you get a clue?I will bet plat the ONLY reason this line was touched today was not because they wanted to fix a useless line, but because internal testing showed the new multi-attack mechanic gave this line a slight increase. In other words, they did this to "nerf" this line that zero game-savvy rogues took, not to fix it. The devs must believe Rogues are right where they should be, so a net-loss "dps" line that no one uses is A-OK, but a very small gain from the 68% "multi attack" with 1 weapon was unacceptable. Fanfaire Feedback my rear.

Gaige

09-21-2010, 04:03 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Was examples because annoying working with non-even numbers, but ok.Preds get 24% base, change rogue to 2.4% base per point! 24% maxed out.That better for your annoying self?</blockquote>No. Doesn't explain why you think you should get as much base auto mod as the DPS scouts when you're a hybrid scout nor does it explain how you think 30% DA = 28% AE auto, especially after the multiattack changes.

Treznet

09-21-2010, 04:17 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Was examples because annoying working with non-even numbers, but ok.Preds get 24% base, change rogue to 2.4% base per point! 24% maxed out.That better for your annoying self?</blockquote>No. Doesn't explain why you think you should get as much base auto mod as the DPS scouts when you're a hybrid scout nor does it explain how you think 30% DA = 28% AE auto, especially after the multiattack changes.</blockquote>I'll take that argument when you dont have any debuffs

Undorett

09-21-2010, 04:19 PM

While a 50% boost in auto attack damage for the main hand weapon is a slight boost in auto attack damage over using two weapons (12.5%), I don’t think it is enough to warrant taking this line due to the loss in stats in the off-hand (say 50-60 agility, 3-4 CB or Pot, and 8-11 crit or DA). In addition to this, this adds the additional penalty of faster attacks and delaying auto attack hits due to combat art casting. At max haste, with a 4s weapon, there would only be 1.75s time between auto attacks to punch off CAs, where Rogues currently have just over 2.6s between auto attacks. Penalties on CAs and AA lines have been slowly being removed due to being “not fun” or just plain out of date with today’s Everquest 2 experience. I suggest instead to have the Freehand reversal changed simply to a double attack increaser while still able to equip 2 weapons, most melee classes get something of this form via AA. Change Unencumbrance to work while dual wielding at the same rate you planned to increase their auto attack damage by making it 1.25% per point, which to be honest I think it still a bit too low especially when compared to Assassins. It would still be a powerful line, but allow you to put items in all of your equip slots to maintain higher stats.

Gaige

09-21-2010, 04:21 PM

<cite>Treznet wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll take that argument when you dont have any debuffs</blockquote>Oh so useless debuffs = useful debuffs to you. Unless you're trying to imply our crit debuff = all of your debuffs combined?Fact is Brigands are brought to raids for their debuffs first, dps second. Assassins are brought to raids for their dps first, dps second, dps third, etc.

Treznet

09-21-2010, 04:30 PM

Geothe

09-21-2010, 05:34 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Treznet wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll take that argument when you dont have any debuffs</blockquote>Oh so useless debuffs = useful debuffs to you. Unless you're trying to imply our crit debuff = all of your debuffs combined?Fact is Brigands are brought to raids for their debuffs first, dps second. Assassins are brought to raids for their dps first, dps second, dps third, etc.</blockquote>Wow gaige, can you try any harder?In a raid setting, Brig mit debuffs debuffs haven't done jack since ROK due to the fact that darn near every single class in the game can debuff mitigations now, and the debuff cap is so easily reach on raid mobs it is completely laughable. And then this expansion, the only semi-useful rogue special debuff left, Traumatic Swipe, was made 100% useless on raids.So, actually, Preds have far more useful debuffs than Brigs in a raid setting now, and vastly superior DPS. Like I said, nice try.And a "hybrid scout" [Removed for Content]. [Removed for Content] are you smoking? How are brigs in this expansion a hybrid scout in raids? we bring zero group utility. Our debuffs are completely redundant, brigs only bring DPS now, and the least of all the DPSing scouts, even more so with the new offhand mechanics change.And Undorett: The 50% base increase with empty offhand actually results in zero increase in autoattack damage. 50% was chosen because it evens things out exactly, while ignorantly not taking into account all of the negatives associated with an empty equipment slot.

Gaige

09-21-2010, 06:06 PM

DISPATCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHH

Aule

09-21-2010, 06:09 PM

The only possible benefit you'd get out of this line is if your primary weapon vastly exceeds the quality of your offhander.

LardLord

09-21-2010, 06:18 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only possible benefit you'd get out of this line is if your primary weapon vastly exceeds the quality of your offhander.</blockquote>Or if you want the debuff?

Aule

09-21-2010, 06:22 PM

True, I should have stated the only dps benefit. 30% accuracy reduction for 20s could be rather meaningful. Especially with the 60s reuse meaning that at 50% reuse the buff will be up half the time.

Ash2k

09-21-2010, 06:22 PM

It really seems like balancing this AA line would be so much easier if it dropped the equipment restriction. And given that there seems to be relatively little complaint about losing the single 1-hander setup, it seems like the thing to do.Or, if possible, perhaps the effects of this AA line could be made conditional, so that you could have a major boost to a single weapon (in case it was enough to induce someone to use it at a particular level range and equipment options during leveling) or a more moderate boost to both of a dual-wielder's weapons.Whether the boost was focused mostly on DPS or on providing some kind of buff/debuff effect I'd leave to others who know the class far better than me.Plus, getting rid of the hard restriction on the empty offhand it would make it possible for the WIS line to actually complement another line instead of competing with others -- which is an issue with the current lineup that Cruckin pointed out above, in which equipment choice entirely rules out AA lines (and vice versa).

Aule

09-21-2010, 06:27 PM

Having a two rogues in raid both spec'd for this to basically trade off 20s debuffs of 30% accuracy on a melee heavy raid mob could actually result in a meaningful reduction in dps. I'm curious as to how much of an effect a 30% accuracy reduction has on raid mobs anyways. Currently they don't really seem to miss, just get avoided. Would this change them to having a 70% hit rate instead of a 100% hit rate?

Gungo

09-21-2010, 06:46 PM

Keep the 50% weapon damage bonus on primary.Allow the rogue to equip a secondaryReduce the secondary weapon damage bonus by 100%.You keep the stats, you keep the procs and gain the primary weapon benefits. Some type of variant of the above changes could work.

Xelgad

09-21-2010, 06:47 PM

<cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious as to how much of an effect a 30% accuracy reduction has on raid mobs anyways. Currently they don't really seem to miss, just get avoided. Would this change them to having a 70% hit rate instead of a 100% hit rate?</blockquote>It would counter accuracy buffs (up to 30%, obviously) if the target has them and if the target does not, it will reduce their hit rate substantially.This line is not intended to be a DPS line. This line is more geared at solo/group play/tanking/utility. As mentioned earlier in the thread, you will only see an increase in DPS by using this line if you have one weapon that's noticably better than your other weapons. The line is set up to increase survivability, add a powerful debuff option should you want to use it and increase your one-handed weapon's damage to be the same as a bow or two handed weapon. That said, there may be some changes but we're not going to promise anything.

Geothe

09-21-2010, 07:01 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>This line is not intended to be a DPS line. This line is more geared at solo/group play/tanking/utility.</blockquote>Hello,You do realize, don't you, that we already have a Solo/Group Play/Tanking line called the STAMINA LINE.WHY in the <a href="mailto:!@#$">!@#$</a> do we need two -MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE- Solo/Group Play/Tanking AA lines?!Seriously?!There is ZERO reason to waste two complete AA lines on that crap.

Oxie

09-21-2010, 07:09 PM

While you are fiddling around with the rogue AAs, could you look into Traumatic Swipe?

Laenai

09-21-2010, 07:24 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>This line is not intended to be a DPS line.</blockquote>Color me stupid, but...<li>[Fan Faire Feedback] “Freehand Reversal” now grants Weapon Damage Bonus instead of double attack. </li><li>[Fan Faire Feedback] “Unencumbrance” now grants Weapon Damage Bonus instead of double attack. </li>looks like a DPS line to me, except for the last effect.And honestly, there's already a rogue tanking line for solo/group stuff.Instead of decreasing a mob's accuracy (if they have an increased accuracy buff. not sure how many mobs I've seen with that), its a temp buff effect like predator's final trick that gives rogues a greatly increased strikethrough or whatever it is that combats block/parry for a limited duration.

Treznet

09-21-2010, 07:31 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious as to how much of an effect a 30% accuracy reduction has on raid mobs anyways. Currently they don't really seem to miss, just get avoided. Would this change them to having a 70% hit rate instead of a 100% hit rate?</blockquote>It would counter accuracy buffs (up to 30%, obviously) if the target has them and if the target does not, it will reduce their hit rate substantially.This line is not intended to be a DPS line. This line is more geared at solo/group play/tanking/utility. As mentioned earlier in the thread, you will only see an increase in DPS by using this line if you have one weapon that's noticably better than your other weapons. The line is set up to increase survivability, add a powerful debuff option should you want to use it and increase your one-handed weapon's damage to be the same as a bow or two handed weapon. That said, there may be some changes but we're not going to promise anything.</blockquote>I can understand not wanting to make this a dps line, it could be unbalancing for the already good dps swash. Problem is no one will want this line any more than they do now. How exactly does this improve our survivability if we cant use a shield and we lose around 300hp to have an empty offhand? I would agree with previous poster as to why would we need another tanking/solo aa line. There are 6 tank classes, its aweful to even to try to tank as a brig being you have to hope walk the plank is up or 1/2 you attacks cant even be used from the front. But , most scout classes have a tanking/ survivability line and that is why everyone has not cried for a change to the sta line. The wis line on the otherhand was made when main hand weapons were superior and you couldnt easily find a offhand weapon that was as good. Also there were weapons classified as 1h only. The times have changed and this is no longer the case. There is no way we should have a aa line for people who only can get their hands on one good weapon and want to do better dps and also want to tank/solo only. You cant use a aa line that was designed when different equipment options were viable. There are no 1h only scout weapons. I have no suggestions on what needs to be done, all I can tell you is there is no place in eq2 for a aa line that leaves your offhand open. Im positive that is why every other class had it removed,

LardLord

09-21-2010, 07:32 PM

<cite>Karimonster wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>This line is not intended to be a DPS line.</blockquote>Color me stupid, but...<li>[Fan Faire Feedback] “Freehand Reversal” now grants Weapon Damage Bonus instead of double attack. </li><li>[Fan Faire Feedback] “Unencumbrance” now grants Weapon Damage Bonus instead of double attack. </li>looks like a DPS line to me, except for the last effect.</blockquote>Those bonuses just make up for auto-attack DPS lost from the lack of an off-hand weapon. They don't even account for the stats that are lost from that restriction, so you aren't really gaining DPS. An empty off-hand means the weapon swings 30% faster, which could actually make up for the loss in stats on raids with more damage from 100% procs...but yeah, certainly doesn't look like a DPS line. I think the debuff could potentially be nice in some situations (PvP? if it were AE, it would definitely be nice in heroic content), but the usefulness on raids is questionable, since most difficult raid mobs never miss (I guess their accuracy is buffed beyond 100%, which is probably what Xelgad was referring to at the beginning of his post).

Dareena

09-21-2010, 07:52 PM

<cite>Quabi@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the debuff could potentially be nice in some situations (PvP? if it were AE, it would definitely be nice in heroic content), but the usefulness on raids is questionable, since most difficult raid mobs never miss (I guess their accuracy is buffed beyond 100%, which is probably what Xelgad was referring to at the beginning of his post).</blockquote>Now that is a good point. To my memory, people have constantly mentioned that the SF raid mobs feel like they're always hitting. This was making avoidance nearly worthless and mitigation the only important stat to worry about.Has this changed? If it hasn't, just how viable is a -30% Accuracy reduction in the first place? Under the example of 100% Accuracy on raid mobs, then at least the debuff would carry some value. In the current incarnation of Tramatic Swipe, TS is useless on SF raid mobs. I could see some people switching from the Str line to the Wis line if the Accuracy debuff had meaning. Then people could choose to keep TS on their PvP spec.But all of that only makes sense if the -30% penalty can be noticeably felt in a raid. If it basically does nothing, then the revised Wisdom line is still worthless.

ElsaRat

09-21-2010, 08:04 PM

I'd like to see an "invisible" weapon you could place in the secondary position in your appearance slot to make it appear you're weiding one weapon regardless if you're dual weilding or not.

Geothe

09-21-2010, 08:17 PM

Continuation, since apparently the whole Rogue Stamina line is unknown to Xelgad.Its already the Solo/Tanking line.Sta1: Swear-Encounter Taunt. Hmm. sure sounds like a tanking ability to me.Sta2: Conditioning-Increases max HP as well as Shield Block. Hmm. shield block sure sounds Solo/Tanking related to me!Sta3: Opportunistic Cover- Increases DPS while Shield Equiped. Hmm. hello tanking?Sta4: Formation- Reactive Taunt on Damage, Increased, Block, HP, and Physical Mit. /waves tanking specSo yes.Already an entire KoS line for Rogues is devoted to Solo/Tanking. There is ZERO reason to add yet another AA line for the same freakin thing!Moreover, in its originial incarnation, Wis line was -the- DPS spec line. And now for some assinine reason you want to shift it from its original and innovative incarnation to a redundant tank-spec AA line which we already have one of and its already very seldom used?!This makes logical sense how?!

Gungo

09-21-2010, 08:55 PM

Make it a AOE/debuff line, which rogues lack.Change freehand into 2.5% AOE auto atk per rank. 25% max AOE auto total. Change Unencumbered into a SMALL encounter damage proc that also reduces "Multi Atk"(or strikethrough) of target by 10%Coule leave as is.Str = utilityAgi = dpsSta = tankingWis = AOE/debuff?Int = deagro

Treznet

09-21-2010, 08:58 PM

This line will not fix brig, you all need to remember this is a swash line too. cant be chaning this into a further aoe increase for swash.

Gungo

09-21-2010, 08:59 PM

<cite>Treznet wrote:</cite><blockquote>This line will not fix brig, you all need to remember this is a swash line too. cant be chaning this into a further aoe increase for swash.</blockquote>There is no reason why swash shouldnt have more aoe increase sinc that is there defined role in raids. It was always odd that zerkers had well over 100% AOE auto.

Nidy

09-21-2010, 09:25 PM

Now that we are way off subject. A swash should go from 50% hurricane to 55% with AA to 60% with adornment then get another 25% AE? Are you serious?Back to topic. We really do NOT need another tank line. Weapon restrictions are rediculous at this point in the game. You need to look at this more closely. Brigs can barely attack from the front as is so what we don't need is 2 full AA lines that has us in the front. This needs to be a DPS line but it doesn't have to be a crazy over the top dps line. Rogues know they are not predators. Little potentcy maybe, possibly little da whatever. The last ability is fine but at worst case make it rear or flanking only not front and change traumatic swipe if all raid mobs are going to be immune.NidyBrigand 90 Mistmoore

LardLord

09-21-2010, 09:50 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Make it a AOE/debuff line, which rogues lack.Change freehand into 2.5% AOE auto atk per rank. 25% max AOE auto total. Change Unencumbered into a SMALL encounter damage proc that also reduces "Multi Atk"(or strikethrough) of target by 10%Coule leave as is.Str = utilityAgi = dpsSta = tankingWis = AOE/debuff?Int = deagro</blockquote>Eh, I don't see what's so terrible about the 1-weapon restriction considering the difference in attack speed. It adds some variety. IMO, just replace the riposte chance with a DPS or debuff bonus, since apparently no one wants tank AAs. Mult-attack would fit well in that spot, since I think nearly every other class gets multi-attack in their KoS tree. STR = Debuff/DPSAGI = DPSSTA = TankingWIS = Debuff/DPSINT = DeaggroEDIT: Could also maintain the attack speed difference but theoretically fix the stat issue if the WIS line worked with sheilds, but then the line becomes Debuff/Tanking, which apparently is not popular, heh.

Dareena

09-21-2010, 10:33 PM

Note: For the purposes of my discussion, it will be assumed that the Accuracy debuff will actually have a beneficial impact on raiding. Should this not be the case, then my whole discussion is moot since the entire Wisdom line has remained worthless.After some thought, I came to the realization that there is only a single purpose to the currently revised Wisdom line on Test. The entire AA line exists for the Accuracy debuff. This reduces the line down to a single question. Is this debuff really worth everything that you're losing to get it?As I understand it, the Wisdom end line isn't changing. In the current era of SF grade adornments, the Wisdom end line is just worth a few adornments. To me, saving 2 AA in the Rogue tree is far more valueable than those potential adornments. So from my point of view, I honestly doubt that anyone will bother taking the end line ability since the Wisdom line will already be too costly as is.Basically people who devote themselves to the Wisdom line will have to devote 30 AA to it. The initial 20 AA are spent on increasing your auto attack damage so your lose of dps from using this AA line will be "minimal". Then the remaining 10 AA are used for maxing out the Accuracy debuff since that's the whole reason that you took this line to begin with.The net result of this 30 AA cost means that people who currently have the Strength end line ability of Tramatic Swipe (for raiding) will have to lose an additional 6 AA from somewhere. They'll move the minimum 24 AA which they had originally invested in Strength, then gut the rest from other abilities.Now is it all worth it? Is the loss of dps output, off-hand weapon stats, and off-hand weapon procs really worth this Accuracy debuff? I don't know. We haven't had enough time to test out this new line. But that's the crux of the situation. To be honest, I can't see a Swash taking this revised Wisdom line. Since GU 57 gave them AE chances for their off-hander, the loss of potential weapon procs on all of those mobs will just cost them too much. Therefore in my own estimation, only Brigs will even look at this line since we lack the ability to AE auto attack. However since Brigand dps is already considered to be sub par, can we afford to lose any more for a new debuff?As a Brigand who will likely be too stubborn to make the sane decision of betraying as of GU 58, I might take the revised Wisdom line if the Accuracy debuff proves to be worthwhile. Too many people have told me over the past couple of years that I'm not a dps class and that my only real purpose is to be a debuff bot (in imperfectly built raids). If that's all that is left for Brigands, then the Wisdom AA line will help me continue my purpose. Even if I weaken myself more in the process. But all in all, that's still a kind of crappy decision.

Aule

09-21-2010, 10:52 PM

Maybe if the restriction is changed from "secondary must be empty" to "must not have a weapon equipped in secondary". Then at least you could have a shield in secondary and use the STA line too, if you wanted. Or have some other utility type secondary for stats/proc/etc.

Thunndar316

09-21-2010, 10:55 PM

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Predators are able to buff 24%(?) base damage mod by spending 8 AA points. Allow Rogues to do a similar increase in the Wis line by spending 10 Points granting 2.5% base mod per point.Preds are also able to buff AE autoattack to 28%(I believe?). Allow Rogues to buff Double Attack further (with the new multiattack change this is benefitial) do 30% with 10 points, 3% per point.Swap the order so that DA bonus is granted earlier in the tree and the base damage increase later in the tree.</blockquote>So go ahead and explain why rogue AAs should be better for DPS than predator AAs?</blockquote>Because you get enough crap handed to you on a silver platterLike a Swashy hate transfer for example. Cough it up rat.

Thunndar316

09-21-2010, 11:01 PM

<cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>While you are fiddling around with the rogue AAs, could you look into Traumatic Swipe?</blockquote>And delete useless piece of **** Sleight of Hand while you're at it.

Oxie

09-22-2010, 12:48 AM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>While you are fiddling around with the rogue AAs, could you look into Traumatic Swipe?</blockquote>And delete useless piece of **** Sleight of Hand while you're at it.</blockquote>And the equally useless Storm of Steel.

Toxicz

09-22-2010, 10:45 AM

<cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>While you are fiddling around with the rogue AAs, could you look into Traumatic Swipe?</blockquote>And delete useless piece of **** Sleight of Hand while you're at it.</blockquote>And the equally useless Storm of Steel.</blockquote>I'll join in, FIX BRIGS!@!!!

RingleToo

09-22-2010, 12:00 PM

<cite>Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Note: For the purposes of my discussion, it will be assumed that the Accuracy debuff will actually have a beneficial impact on raiding. Should this not be the case, then my whole discussion is moot since the entire Wisdom line has remained worthless.After some thought, I came to the realization that there is only a single purpose to the currently revised Wisdom line on Test. The entire AA line exists for the Accuracy debuff. This reduces the line down to a single question. Is this debuff really worth everything that you're losing to get it?As I understand it, the Wisdom end line isn't changing. In the current era of SF grade adornments, the Wisdom end line is just worth a few adornments. To me, saving 2 AA in the Rogue tree is far more valueable than those potential adornments. So from my point of view, I honestly doubt that anyone will bother taking the end line ability since the Wisdom line will already be too costly as is.Basically people who devote themselves to the Wisdom line will have to devote 30 AA to it. The initial 20 AA are spent on increasing your auto attack damage so your lose of dps from using this AA line will be "minimal". Then the remaining 10 AA are used for maxing out the Accuracy debuff since that's the whole reason that you took this line to begin with.The net result of this 30 AA cost means that people who currently have the Strength end line ability of Tramatic Swipe (for raiding) will have to lose an additional 6 AA from somewhere. They'll move the minimum 24 AA which they had originally invested in Strength, then gut the rest from other abilities.Now is it all worth it? Is the loss of dps output, off-hand weapon stats, and off-hand weapon procs really worth this Accuracy debuff? I don't know. We haven't had enough time to test out this new line. But that's the crux of the situation. To be honest, I can't see a Swash taking this revised Wisdom line. Since GU 57 gave them AE chances for their off-hander, the loss of potential weapon procs on all of those mobs will just cost them too much. Therefore in my own estimation, only Brigs will even look at this line since we lack the ability to AE auto attack. However since Brigand dps is already considered to be sub par, can we afford to lose any more for a new debuff?As a Brigand who will likely be too stubborn to make the sane decision of betraying as of GU 58, I might take the revised Wisdom line if the Accuracy debuff proves to be worthwhile. Too many people have told me over the past couple of years that I'm not a dps class and that my only real purpose is to be a debuff bot (in imperfectly built raids). If that's all that is left for Brigands, then the Wisdom AA line will help me continue my purpose. Even if I weaken myself more in the process. But all in all, that's still a kind of crappy decision.</blockquote>Exactly the question I was going to ask. This has always been the issue for me even back when the WIS line was worth while. When it used to matter, I remember all those debates that went back and forth about which was better - one or two handed weapons.Back then, many (most?) agreed that the WIS line was better for dps (though I don't know that I was ever convinced lol). But what about the stat bonuses/processes of that second weapon? I don't know that those "pluses" were really taken into account, and now that second weapon is even more potent. Before the changes, I questioned if the WIS line was really better, and I still don't see how that an accuracy debuff (nice as it may turn out to be) is going to make me want to give up that second weapon. I'll be very interested to see how things play out.

Davngr1

09-22-2010, 01:06 PM

the reason WIS line was best back then is because aoe attack and double attack were so rare and it was almost impossible to find two good weapons. now good weapons are all over, da is common placed and aoe is off hand as well. the debuf is nice but i frankly can't see equiping only one weapon amounting to more dps or even the same. still an accuracy debuff might you a raid spot depending on how much of an impact it makes.

Trojenn

09-22-2010, 01:06 PM

Solo I can see as you level up being that it would be nice for damage at low levels.STA Line already gives us a bonus for tanking and guess what, we can still use something in our secondary " Shield " and guess what, it has stats.. Yeah, the damage may not be the same but honestly, who is going to be a Swash/Brig Tank in any other spec aside from there regular DPS Spec. I have a BG Spec that is close to my raid spec aside from taking mitigation from Shadows and HP from endline STA by dropping T-Swipe and guess what.. I have 24k HP Solo in that spec and can nearly DPS the same as my regular spec. I hope by tweeks he meens either upping the Base Modifier to .75 or something like that or adding .5 Bonus / Potency some Agi and HP to one of the Wis slots to make up for the loss of an offhand. I can see this for an idea.Free-Hand reversal: 24% base damage and then .5% Crit Bonus per point up to 10 points.With 10 points spent: 24% base damage and 5% Crit Bonus.Unencumbrance: 2.6% base damage per point,10 agi, and 1% Max HP.With 10 points spent: 26% Base Damage 50 Agi and 10% Max HP That would eliminate the loss of the offhand weapon, as far as Blue and Green stats, Lunge Reversal may make up the difference as far as proc Damage loss. So it would still be a viable option untill you got an Endgame weapon that had better Green/Blue stats and Proc on it then you could aquire from AA. The endline AA would make up for the loss of T-Swipe and you could drop the STA Line and by gaining 10% HP from Wis line we would not realy see a huge drop in HP.I am not asking for this to make us parse like assassins but I don't think we should have an AA line thats been outdated for years now be turned into something is only going to be used for BG's/PVP and Leveling. As I stated above, the only Rogues that you will see actualy tanking anything will more then likely have some raid gear and probably would never even change there spec just to tank. The only other thing that would realy need to be adjusted is Lunge Reversal. Currently its a 20 Sec Cooldown Proc that hits for 1279-2132 @ rank 10. With the addition of some procs hitting from the offhand pluss and offhand proc of say 1986 2.0 p/min the Lunge Reversal wouldn't make up for the difference in its current state.These are just some logical ideas that arn't game breaking and wouldn't make either class Brig or Swash overpowered. It would just give us a viable option for either speccing MAX HP w/T-Swipe or Less HP for Accuracy Debuff. It would keep the damage on par with having an offhand and say you get an offhand with some crazy stats on it, you could drop Wis and go back Duel Wield.. Atleast it gives us a choice.

Spite

09-22-2010, 01:12 PM

I guess at the end of the day - We don't use it now so we are not loosing anything.This wont be a problem for the remainder of this expansion, so I guess we play a wait and see what happens with the expansion beta.Also can we get A Fanfair Request from 2009, added to this once since it took you 2 cycles to still get this so wrong?

Geothe

09-22-2010, 01:17 PM

<cite>Cruckin@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess at the end of the day - We don't use it now so we are not loosing anything. </blockquote>But why would a Dev waste time taking something useless and replacing it with equally useless? Horrid work management. If you are going to take time to change something, actually change it so its usefull, and not an exclusionary redundancy of an already existing AA line.

boogeyman13

09-22-2010, 01:22 PM

I wonder how it would go if they revamped sta line and let you use a round shield in your offhand with wis line and tweeked the stam line to fit with it? Any feedback on the idea would be welcome.I personally would like to see them stop putting restrictions on every thing they give us, like you can use ranged thrown with Ca's only then stop putting thrown weapons in the game that are worth a dam without having to kill a hard mode (they are still crap compared to the bows I am seeing).

boomerponc

09-22-2010, 01:23 PM

Davngr1

09-22-2010, 01:24 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cruckin@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess at the end of the day - We don't use it now so we are not loosing anything. </blockquote>But why would a Dev waste time taking something useless and replacing it with equally useless? Horrid work management. If you are going to take time to change something, actually change it so its usefull, and not an exclusionary redundancy of an already existing AA line.</blockquote> my biggest gripe would be that they put a debuff that might be useful for raid/group but no one will use it.

Darkor

09-22-2010, 01:50 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious as to how much of an effect a 30% accuracy reduction has on raid mobs anyways. Currently they don't really seem to miss, just get avoided. Would this change them to having a 70% hit rate instead of a 100% hit rate?</blockquote>This line is not intended to be a DPS line. This line is more geared at solo/group play/tanking/utility. As mentioned earlier in the thread, you will only see an increase in DPS by using this line if you have one weapon that's noticably better than your other weapons. The line is set up to increase survivability, add a powerful debuff option should you want to use it and increase your one-handed weapon's damage to be the same as a bow or two handed weapon. That said, there may be some changes but we're not going to promise anything.</blockquote>I can only hope that you were joking when you typed that. Rogues do have a solo/grp/tanking/utility line allready. There is absolutaly no need for a second one, especially since this new "supposed" utility line wont stack with our shield line. You cant be serious and you cant tell me that all of you devs couldnt come to a better conclusion than this "improved" wis line. Warrior had a DPS line which restriced them from using high avoidance shields, in return they got a dps boost. Brawer got a dps line which restricted them using weapons. Both of these lines have been revamped, removing the restriction but still giving some benefit. Yet we get to keep the restrictions and gain not only no real boost but it makes us weaker. The line currently on test is a big waste of AA points and im seriously disapointed that you guys even tried to make another defensive/utility line. Have you not checked out rogue trees? How many people actually use the shield line? Not enough to even THINK about adding a second one. You took your time to change the line, but why didnt you spend your time wisely and actually gave it an upgrade. Whether you remove the restriction and make the line give less of a boost boost or keep the restriction but make the line actually worth it, is up to you. But for the love of the rogue community, dont disapoint us again with a silly idea like this one again. It shows that you took no effort to actually help us, and that saddens me alot Xelgad.

Treznet

09-22-2010, 02:58 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>the reason WIS line was best back then is because aoe attack and double attack were so rare and it was almost impossible to find two good weapons. now good weapons are all over, da is common placed and aoe is off hand as well. the debuf is nice but i frankly can't see equiping only one weapon amounting to more dps or even the same. still an accuracy debuff might you a raid spot depending on how much of an impact it makes.</blockquote>Thats only 1/2 true. The other reason the wis line was an option was there were 1 hand only weapons designed for this line or for tanks to use with a shield. I think everyone forgets that there were weapons labled as dual wield and weapons that were 1h only. Weapons that were 1h only had a higher damage rating and a slower delay, so its similar to what the aa's would bring our current weapons up to. The difference was you got the bonous of the of lung reversal and DA ( which was impossible to get at that time) on top of having a weapon that hit harder than weapons that could be dual wield. Then along came the change that all 1h weapons could be dual wield and the introduction of more da on gear,The wis line was obsolete soon after. Now your solution is to just make weilding 1 weapon as much damage as wielding 2, with no other benifit. Other than a debuff that Im not convinced will have much of an effect outside of heroic/solo content. I think a better direction to go would be to have your offhand used as a more defensive blade and not autoattack. Keep the current damage aa on test with your main hand and have the only time your offhand has a chance to attack is with a block or parry/deflection. Also your offhand adds some defensive bonous as it used to deflect attacks and riposte and not as a means of primary offense. I think that might make this closer to a useable line.

Dareena

09-22-2010, 03:27 PM

Since I've already voiced my opinions on the revised Wisdom line earlier in this thread, I won't bring those up again. But in response to Xelgad's vocal description of this line, I'm still scratching my head. Why would any dev create an AA line which is specifically designed to not be viable for raiding? Especially when the Rogue tree already has the Stamina line which falls under that specific criteria. Am I missing something? Did we suddenly get a horde of Rogues who are tanking in even heroic content?To my knowledge, few rogues bother to act as the MT in a heroic group. We might OT as needed, but that's the extent of our tanking focus. Giving rogues x2 different tanking specific lines boggles my mind. Now I don't personally consider to the purpose of the revised Wisdom line to be for tanking. It's for debuffing and it takes the concept so far that a rogue has to be willing to sacrifice dps output to do so. But why in the world would someone bother to claim that the Wisdom line is for tanking? Is this somehow supposed to replace the Stamina line in T9 since there are no Round Shields for people to use?

Darkor

09-22-2010, 03:36 PM

<cite>Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since I've already voiced my opinions on the revised Wisdom line earlier in this thread, I won't bring those up again. But in response to Xelgad's vocal description of this line, I'm still scratching my head. Why would any dev create an AA line which is specifically designed to not be viable for raiding? Especially when the Rogue tree already has the Stamina line which falls under that specific criteria. Am I missing something? Did we suddenly get a horde of Rogues who are tanking in even heroic content?To my knowledge, few rogues bother to act as the MT in a heroic group. We might OT as needed, but that's the extent of our tanking focus. Giving rogues x2 different tanking specific lines boggles my mind. Now I don't personally consider to the purpose of the revised Wisdom line to be for tanking. It's for debuffing and it takes the concept so far that a rogue has to be willing to sacrifice dps output to do so. But why in the world would someone bother to claim that the Wisdom line is for tanking? Is this somehow supposed to replace the Stamina line in T9 since there are no Round Shields for people to use?</blockquote>Dont ask me, i have no clue. The debuff isnt worth the current loss anyway, no matter how good it turns out to be. Wis should be a viable choice, right now its useless. I hope they change their minds about it and upgrade it to somewhat better. I really hope it.

Toxicz

09-22-2010, 04:27 PM

<cite>Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since I've already voiced my opinions on the revised Wisdom line earlier in this thread, I won't bring those up again. But in response to Xelgad's vocal description of this line, I'm still scratching my head. Why would any dev create an AA line which is specifically designed to not be viable for raiding? Especially when the Rogue tree already has the Stamina line which falls under that specific criteria. Am I missing something? Did we suddenly get a horde of Rogues who are tanking in even heroic content?To my knowledge, few rogues bother to act as the MT in a heroic group. We might OT as needed, but that's the extent of our tanking focus. Giving rogues x2 different tanking specific lines boggles my mind. Now I don't personally consider to the purpose of the revised Wisdom line to be for tanking. It's for debuffing and it takes the concept so far that a rogue has to be willing to sacrifice dps output to do so. But why in the world would someone bother to claim that the Wisdom line is for tanking? Is this somehow supposed to replace the Stamina line in T9 since there are no Round Shields for people to use?</blockquote>That one de-buff isn't worth the 24 points it takes to get it in it's current state. They need to make the dps benefits much greater for it to be worth while. I'm not sacraficing my dps or survivability for a de-buff that "might" work on raid mobs and is only on for 20ish secs.

Davngr1

09-22-2010, 06:24 PM

<cite>Treznet wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>the reason WIS line was best back then is because aoe attack and double attack were so rare and it was almost impossible to find two good weapons. now good weapons are all over, da is common placed and aoe is off hand as well. the debuf is nice but i frankly can't see equiping only one weapon amounting to more dps or even the same. still an accuracy debuff might you a raid spot depending on how much of an impact it makes.</blockquote>Thats only 1/2 true. The other reason the wis line was an option was there were 1 hand only weapons designed for this line or for tanks to use with a shield. I think everyone forgets that there were weapons labled as dual wield and weapons that were 1h only. Weapons that were 1h only had a higher damage rating and a slower delay, so its similar to what the aa's would bring our current weapons up to. The difference was you got the bonous of the of lung reversal and DA ( which was impossible to get at that time) on top of having a weapon that hit harder than weapons that could be dual wield. Then along came the change that all 1h weapons could be dual wield and the introduction of more da on gear,The wis line was obsolete soon after. Now your solution is to just make weilding 1 weapon as much damage as wielding 2, with no other benifit. Other than a debuff that Im not convinced will have much of an effect outside of heroic/solo content. I think a better direction to go would be to have your offhand used as a more defensive blade and not autoattack. Keep the current damage aa on test with your main hand and have the only time your offhand has a chance to attack is with a block or parry/deflection. Also your offhand adds some defensive bonous as it used to deflect attacks and riposte and not as a means of primary offense. I think that might make this closer to a useable line.</blockquote> yea i forgot to metion the 1H weapons but even when they made everything DW it was still almost impossible to find two good weapons and that's pretty much the reason why WIS was king for dps. specialy for swash cos aoe attack at any rate.. i still don't like the fact that there will be a good debuff that i won't be able to use on my brig unless i loose damage(that he all ready lacks in the first place). if you can smooth out the line so it becomes at least equal damage it would be great. a lot of great ideas here from players who full time their brigs/swash maybe one could work.

Darkor

09-23-2010, 01:23 PM

Dont think we're gonna get another reply from a dev in this thread. Sad

Rahatmattata

09-23-2010, 01:42 PM

Just about every class has 2 - 4 useless AA lines. The only bad thing here is spending dev time making a useless thing different, but still equally useless.

Katanalla

09-23-2010, 01:56 PM

If you want ANYONE to use this legit / not as a joke, the empty freehand requirement has got to go. It's like Sleight of Hand, in your little world it's a great idea... until you realize tanks now have like 3 snap agro abilities up at any given time.

ElsaRat

09-23-2010, 02:12 PM

Davngr1

09-23-2010, 04:21 PM

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just about every class has 2 - 4 useless AA lines. The only bad thing here is spending dev time making a useless thing different, but still equally useless.</blockquote> the debuff might not be all that useless and that's what realy sux cos if i was a raid leader and this debuff turns out to be worth a poop.. guess what spec one of the rouges will have to have <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 30% accuracy debuff might be enough to make defense and parry worth something in epic content again.

Dareena

09-24-2010, 12:17 PM

Has anyone managed to test these changes out yet beyond dummy parsing? I'm really curious to hear people's experiences about how a maxed out version of the Accuracy debuff does. Is it making a noticeable difference in Heroic zones? Did anyone managed to get in a raid with it and parse the mob's hit rates to look for changes?

Geothe

09-24-2010, 01:25 PM

Okay, so Xelgad wants to make an improved "tanking" AA line for Rogues.How about instead, you improve the current Tanking Line, Stamina, and make the Wis line actually useful for a variety of play styles.Stamina Line:"Swear": Keep as is, AE taunt is good for tanking."Conditioning": Decent as is, the extra Block and HP are good, but maybe increase the block somewhat, as it is modifying the change for a ROUND shield, and not a tower shield. Change it from 2% per point to 4% per point."Opportunistic Cover": Currenlty this just increases DPS mod at 7 per rank as long as a round shield is equipied. Change this to increasing DPS mod by 7 per rank as well as melee base damage mod by 3.5% per rank."Formation": Remove the increase chance to block by 4% and instead add in a 5% Riposte chance or something, while keeping everything else the same.Wisdom Line: Remove Empty Offhand Req from this line completely."Lunge Reversal:" Change this to just a normal damage proc, 2.0 times per minute."Free Hand Reversal": Change this to 1.5% base damage mod per point."Unencumbrance": Change this to AE Autoattack, 2.8% per point (just as Predators)Coule: Keep your new Debuff Idea here.Overall: A "Tanking" Rogue could go full stamina and then partial Wisdom and get 50% base damage mod for their weapon, while still gaining stats from the shield in their offhand (the only issue is Round Shields for some assinine reason werent itemized AT ALL this expansion.. so probably need to toss a decent Round Shield onto Mark and Seal merchants). For a DPSing Rogue, the new Wis line would offer an decent option as well. Some base damage increase (half of what Preds get, so that should quite Gaige's crying), AE Autoattack which Preds and all Fighters get in their KoS AAs yet Rogues don't, an ok proc... nothing special, but not useless, and then the new debuff which hopefully would have some impact in raid.In the end, Xelgad's idea of a tanking Rogue with a hard hitting weapon will still exist, and they would have to have a shield equiped to hit hard. While Wis line would also become a viable choice for all Rogues, Tanking role, or DPSing role.

oneeyedlotus

09-24-2010, 01:26 PM

Not gonna read every post so if this idea has come up ignore me, but I always thought that proper thing for this like as it is/was is just to add a shield requirement Vs. the empty hand one. Seems logical to me, hard to leave 1 spot open that might add quite a bit of stats/proc's.

Stubbswick

09-24-2010, 03:27 PM

If you're going to leave it a one-hander line, you need to find a way to make up for the loss of DPS from not having a second hander. If it's not supposed to be a "DPS" line, that's fine - but what people are trying to say is they wouldn't take it because it will actually hurt their DPS (it's essentially a "negative DPS" line). It's not necessarily that we want it to be a huge DPS boost (although that would be nice), we just won't bother using it if it leaves us with significantly less DPS than we started with.Here are some suggestions I have, if you leave the empty off-hand restrictions:Lunge Reversal: Others have said just change it to a damage proc, but it's an interesting idea to have it deal damage when a mob avoids an attack. The refresh time could be shortened, or the damage increased, but otherwise this is ok. You could also change it to have a chance to perfom another auto attack if your auto attack is avoided.Freehand Reversal: I would change this AA to an encounter proc. Each rank increases damage and/or proc rate. Since Pestilent Rain/Torrent were toned down, this AA could be made unique by being affected by stats. If that's too overpowered, give it a physical mitt debuf component.Unencumbrance: Gives Multi-attack % and Auto Attack multiplier, maxed out at something like 50% and 0.5. Maybe even a little flurry would be nice, but I would want it on top of, not instead of the other two stats.Coule: Since so many mobs have nasty frontals, it would be nice to add a buff portion as well. For example, reduces targets accuracy by 30%, increases accuracy of raid and group members by 5-10%.

Attrikane

09-24-2010, 07:14 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okay, so Xelgad wants to make an improved "tanking" AA line for Rogues.How about instead, you improve the current Tanking Line, Stamina, and make the Wis line actually useful for a variety of play styles.Stamina Line:"Swear": Keep as is, AE taunt is good for tanking."Conditioning": Decent as is, the extra Block and HP are good, but maybe increase the block somewhat, as it is modifying the change for a ROUND shield, and not a tower shield. Change it from 2% per point to 4% per point."Opportunistic Cover": Currenlty this just increases DPS mod at 7 per rank as long as a round shield is equipied. Change this to increasing DPS mod by 7 per rank as well as melee base damage mod by 3.5% per rank."Formation": Remove the increase chance to block by 4% and instead add in a 5% Riposte chance or something, while keeping everything else the same.Wisdom Line: Remove Empty Offhand Req from this line completely."Lunge Reversal:" Change this to just a normal damage proc, 2.0 times per minute."Free Hand Reversal": Change this to 1.5% base damage mod per point."Unencumbrance": Change this to AE Autoattack, 2.8% per point (just as Predators)Coule: Keep your new Debuff Idea here.Overall: A "Tanking" Rogue could go full stamina and then partial Wisdom and get 50% base damage mod for their weapon, while still gaining stats from the shield in their offhand (the only issue is Round Shields for some assinine reason werent itemized AT ALL this expansion.. so probably need to toss a decent Round Shield onto Mark and Seal merchants). For a DPSing Rogue, the new Wis line would offer an decent option as well. Some base damage increase (half of what Preds get, so that should quite Gaige's crying), AE Autoattack which Preds and all Fighters get in their KoS AAs yet Rogues don't, an ok proc... nothing special, but not useless, and then the new debuff which hopefully would have some impact in raid.In the end, Xelgad's idea of a tanking Rogue with a hard hitting weapon will still exist, and they would have to have a shield equiped to hit hard. While Wis line would also become a viable choice for all Rogues, Tanking role, or DPSing role.</blockquote>If you can't tank with a rogue while dual weilding....1. you have crappy healers, or 2. you don't know what you're doing.

Darkor

09-25-2010, 04:32 AM

Looks like Xelgad aint coming back to this thread <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Darkor

09-26-2010, 04:51 AM

Not gonna let this thread die down, after all this feedbacks, are there still no plans to change the new wis line to something usefull?

Dareena

09-26-2010, 01:45 PM

I'm saving any further commentary until after I see Tuesday's potential update notes on Test. Up until that point, I think that we should all cool our heels. Perhaps Xelgad does intend to make tweaks to the build, yet doesn't want to get into a group discussion about it. However if there are no tweaks on Tues, then we should all keep this thread going.

Darkor

09-26-2010, 02:05 PM

<cite>Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm saving any further commentary until after I see Tuesday's potential update notes on Test. Up until that point, I think that we should all cool our heels. Perhaps Xelgad does intend to make tweaks to the build, yet doesn't want to get into a group discussion about it. However if there are no tweaks on Tues, then we should all keep this thread going.</blockquote>I think we were punished enough with silence allready. Not only on this matter, but on several other balancing issues in the past. And history shows, that if you dont get stuff fixed quick enough, you'll never see a fix or eventuall 2 yeas later. Now is the best chance to give feedback and i really really hope that you are correct with your assumption, that xelgad made some tweaks.

Malacha

09-26-2010, 02:16 PM

Not going to repeat what others have said here. I just want to stress that rogues do not need two (MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE) tanking lines... we aren't tanks, we don't want to be tanks, we don't need a line that would just be used in leveling up (if that)... I do appreciate you at least taking a look at the wis line, but you went about it all wrong. I don't want to tank! If I wanted to tank, I could take the stamina line and respec my other lines to make it happen.

erratic

09-26-2010, 02:37 PM

I just want to chime in as well and say that it's amazing that after all this time of the line being completely worthless it finally gets some attention to be changed from completely worthless to still worthless in 99% of situations.Doesn't it bother soe that almost everyone in the game runs the same spec with only minor variences? A well balanced game would have several specs that are all viable and it should be up to player preference which one to use.

Miapa

09-26-2010, 05:20 PM

Perhaps it should be changed to affect the primary weapon only (allow two weapons equipped) and decrease the bonus a bit. Otherwise, the tree is still pretty useless.

MaxDaft

09-26-2010, 07:45 PM

I spent the better part of two hours last night testing this new wis line change... While I don't see it being viable for tanking because sta is and wis are mutally exclusive I also do not see it as viable for dps. While most of my parses were within 200 dps of each other in 2- 1h mode (current spec aa) and the new wis line. For sake of testing my 1h spec was the following :<a href="http://www.beetny.com/eq2aa/?202s164a@184a1@4a4a11@388@18@1212g5@15@15555@35@1 55555151@11155@15@2121q5@25@755@11@155@1551@215551 1" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.beetny.com/eq2aa/?202s16...55@1551@2155511</a>I will not take this spec at the loss of 10% hp. I rather enjoy having 23k hp self buffed.This is my normal spec as of right now:<a href="http://www.beetny.com/eq2aa/?202s984a184a14a@61@388@18@1212g5@15@15555@35@1555 55151@11155@15@2121q5@25@755@11@155@1551@2155511" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.beetny.com/eq2aa/?202s98...55@1551@2155511</a>So I lose 10% hp, I lose traumatic swipe (near useless) and I lose some agi/sta. I also loose any offhand procs' (very important) I lose any blue bonuses to cb/pot/crit/da, etc.I gain no dps even if I could get the 6sec delay weapon off last guy in underfoot this still is not a viable spec.What I gain is a swashy style reversal aka engarde, 10% riposte if i blew the points, notice I did not I just put enough for the next item in line as full weapon damage bonus is give @ 1.The only thing in this line worth noting as it is currently tuned is the 30% accuracy debuff which to be honest I want to test on a raid mob before I determine if it is going to be like some of our other abilities and be forced not to work.This line could be changed slightly to make it worth while, a loss of crit/hp for this line would be acceptable if their was no offhand requirement IE forced no weapon, why not make the first weapon bonus apply to the offhand and the second to the main hand, even dumbing it down slightly from its current numbers thus making the end line viable and the wis line worth taking for the losses netted. As is this is not going to get any brigands excited and surely non that raid will swap for a loss of survivability and loss of potential dps for this.

Oxie

09-26-2010, 08:46 PM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I wanted to tank, I could take the stamina line and respec my other lines to make it happen.</blockquote>If I wanted to tank, I'd just roll...a tank. Since I do not want to tank, I play a rogue to do rogue things.

Malacha

09-26-2010, 09:02 PM

<cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote>If I wanted to tank, I could take the stamina line and respec my other lines to make it happen.</blockquote>If I wanted to tank, I'd just roll...a tank. Since I do not want to tank, I play a rogue to do rogue things.</blockquote>Well yeah, that too. I guess I should have worded it "If I wanted to tank as a rogue"

Nevao

09-26-2010, 09:06 PM

<cite>MaxDaft wrote:</cite><blockquote>This line could be changed slightly to make it worth while, a loss of crit/hp for this line would be acceptable if their was no offhand requirement IE forced no weapon, why not make the first weapon bonus apply to the offhand and the second to the main hand, even dumbing it down slightly from its current numbers thus making the end line viable and the wis line worth taking for the losses netted. As is this is not going to get any brigands excited and surely non that raid will swap for a loss of survivability and loss of potential dps for this.</blockquote>The only way I can see the switch if the 30% accuracy buff actually turns out to be useful, but I really think the position requirement needs to come off. That way it's useful for everyone (again Brigs are setup to be rear 99.9% of the time). The other concern I have is that if it is that good then I think the recast needs to be lowered or the duration needs to be extended, other wise we're going to end up with 3 rogue raids which I don't think we want as the "norm" given all the concerns over too many utility classes (not that rogues count as one but you get the point).As for the rest of the line I think you could add some potency and to get the damage back in line for raiders (not higher just even with other options).(Oh and /bonk Kad. He knows why <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> )

Aule

09-27-2010, 12:28 AM

You'd just end up with a brig and a swash. Wouldn't need a third rogue. 50% reuse changes the reuse from 60s to 40s, with 20s duration it'll be up the majority of the time alternate jcaps on them at the start of the fight and they'll both be able to use again immediately. If it turns out to be THAT important, the first one to go can get an roa along the way too, that'd give you 100s solid of coule and more often than not it'll be up the rest of the time.

Xelgad

09-27-2010, 07:15 PM

Some changes should be noticed on test soon (tm.) I can't promise they'll be there tomorrow, but they will be there soon.The changes are as follows:<ul><li>"Unencumberance" is now "Deft Disarm" and is in the first slot of the Wisdom line for Rogues. "Deft Disarm" deals minor damage and decreases the target's strength. Deft Disarm does not require an empty offhand.</li><li>"Freehand Reversal" now increases weapon damage bonus by 3% per rank following the first rank of 24%. The Riposte Chance has been changed to Multi Attack.</li><li>"Lunge Reversal" now refreshes every 15 seconds and is in the third slot of the Wisdom line for Rogues.</li><li>"Coule" now reduces Accuracy and Weapon Damage Bonus.</li></ul>

Notsovilepriest

09-27-2010, 07:27 PM

Looks like a really good change.Players love when you guys actually listen to them

Hamervelder

09-27-2010, 07:34 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious as to how much of an effect a 30% accuracy reduction has on raid mobs anyways. Currently they don't really seem to miss, just get avoided. Would this change them to having a 70% hit rate instead of a 100% hit rate?</blockquote>It would counter accuracy buffs (up to 30%, obviously) if the target has them and if the target does not, it will reduce their hit rate substantially.This line is not intended to be a DPS line. This line is more geared at solo/group play/tanking/utility. As mentioned earlier in the thread, you will only see an increase in DPS by using this line if you have one weapon that's noticably better than your other weapons. The line is set up to increase survivability, add a powerful debuff option should you want to use it and increase your one-handed weapon's damage to be the same as a bow or two handed weapon. That said, there may be some changes but we're not going to promise anything.</blockquote>How can you call it a survivability/tanking line, when you're FORCING PLAYERS TO HAVE THEIR OFF-HAND EMPTY? They STILL have to give up any bonuses that they'd have gotten from having a second weapon or a shield. This change isn't about survivability. It's about keeping rogues from being able to use the recent double-attack mechanics change to get excessively high double-attack now. Your change doesn't end up benefitting rogues at all. I know that you think that it does, but it really doesn't. Take away the empty off-hand restriction, and then it might benefit rogues. Poorly implemented idea like this are part of the reason (along with having Station Cash thrust in our faces) that my family's last remaining EQ2 account runs out on October 1st this year. We had five at one time. But hey, keep on making more stupid changes, and maybe you'll somehow gain new customers to replace the years-long customers that you keep losing.

Geothe

09-27-2010, 07:38 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some changes should be noticed on test soon (tm.) I can't promise they'll be there tomorrow, but they will be there soon.The changes are as follows:<ul><li>"Unencumberance" is now "Deft Disarm" and is in the first slot of the Wisdom line for Rogues. "Deft Disarm" deals minor damage and decreases the target's strength. Deft Disarm does not require an empty offhand.</li><li>"Freehand Reversal" now increases weapon damage bonus by 3% per rank following the first rank of 24%. The Riposte Chance has been changed to Multi Attack.</li><li>"Lunge Reversal" now refreshes every 15 seconds and is in the third slot of the Wisdom line for Rogues.</li><li>"Coule" now reduces Accuracy and Weapon Damage Bonus.</li></ul></blockquote>Do Freehand Reversal, Lunge Reversal, and Coule all still require an empty offhand slot though?If, so, NOTHING has changed, this STILL is less DPS for spending AAs.

Gungo

09-27-2010, 08:27 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some changes should be noticed on test soon (tm.) I can't promise they'll be there tomorrow, but they will be there soon.The changes are as follows:<ul><li>"Unencumberance" is now "Deft Disarm" and is in the first slot of the Wisdom line for Rogues. "Deft Disarm" deals minor damage and decreases the target's strength. Deft Disarm does not require an empty offhand.</li><li>"Freehand Reversal" now increases weapon damage bonus by 3% per rank following the first rank of 24%. The Riposte Chance has been changed to Multi Attack.</li><li>"Lunge Reversal" now refreshes every 15 seconds and is in the third slot of the Wisdom line for Rogues.</li><li>"Coule" now reduces Accuracy and Weapon Damage Bonus.</li></ul></blockquote>Do Freehand Reversal, Lunge Reversal, and Coule all still require an empty offhand slot though?If, so, NOTHING has changed, this STILL is less DPS for spending AAs.</blockquote>While it may be SLIGHTLY less dps at the absolute worst. 51% base damage, 10% multiatk, and double damage potential on lung reversal. Every rogue would be silly not to take this line. The fact coule reduces accuracy by 30% and weapon damage bonus (auto atk damage) by whichever % is a huge debuff. This was never meant to be a DPS line but if they make it a GOOD debuff line then rogues will gain their role back which is debuffers.

Geothe

09-27-2010, 08:36 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>While it may be SLIGHTLY less dps at the absolute worst. 51% base damage, 10% multiatk, and double damage potential on lung reversal. Every rogue would be silly not to take this line. The fact coule reduces accuracy by 30% and weapon damage bonus (auto atk damage) by whichever % is a huge debuff. This was never meant to be a DPS line but if they make it a GOOD debuff line then rogues will gain their role back which is debuffers. </blockquote>Its still a complete loss of Stats and Procs due to having a completely empty equipment slot which -NO OTHER- class is FORCED to do. At one point, there were some classes that had similar requirements, either empty slot, or specific weapon types required for certain AAs, but they were removed for every other class in the game, with the exception of rogues, because it is an utterly moronic thing to force players to do. And not sure how you are getting double damage for Lunge Reversal, currently 20 sec refresh, will be 15 sec. But proc is only on a missed attack as is, so its not even a regular proc chance.And now this line WILL be required for Raiding, because of the new totally unique debuff, so all rogues will be FORCED to lower their DPS in raids to take this line. Not to mention, where is the logic in adding a new raid required debuff (the new Coule) while our old raid required debuff (Traumatic Swipe) was already made 100% useless in raids this expansion already.Summary:If you are incapable of modifying this line to either remove the empty off hand requirement, or at least make it so Rogues actually -gain- DPS by spending 24 AAs in it. I dont even know what you are wasting your time modifying it in the first place.

Gungo

09-27-2010, 08:44 PM

Geothe

09-27-2010, 08:46 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Regardless of that fact though Coule will make at least 2 rouges optimal for raids again. </blockquote>Yeah. but with as assinine as the rest of the changes in this "improved" wis line are, Rogues would be better off if they just changed Traumatic Swipe and gave it the Accuracy and Weapon Damage Bonus debuff instead. Then we actually wouldn't be losing DPS to have a useful debuff in raid once again.

Gungo

09-27-2010, 08:49 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>Regardless of that fact though Coule will make at least 2 rouges optimal for raids again. </blockquote>Yeah. but with as assinine as the rest of the changes in this "improved" wis line are, Rogues would be better off if they just changed Traumatic Swipe and gave it the Accuracy and Weapon Damage Bonus debuff instead. Then we actually wouldn't be losing DPS to have a useful debuff in raid once again.</blockquote>I thought swashies reduce spell damage by 10% with their traumatic swipe?

Geothe

09-27-2010, 08:51 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I thought swashies reduce spell damage by 10% with their traumatic swipe?</blockquote>As an effect on their mythical, for brigands it does nothing, as its supposed to mod recast timers but NO timers are mod-able in this expansion. Which actually screws Swashies even more with this new change. So Wis line debuff will become required essentially for all rogues. Swash still will need to take T-Swipe for the potency debuff (since those are rare as heck too) and will probably have to sacrifice SailWind to pull it all off.

MaxDaft

09-27-2010, 08:52 PM

Yea why not just drop the agi line change, and make traumatic swipe as is + 30% debuff, adjust timer as well.I don't see it happening. Not until a dev actually plays our class.

Gungo

09-27-2010, 08:56 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I thought swashies reduce spell damage by 10% with their traumatic swipe?</blockquote>As an effect on their mythical, for brigands it does nothing, as its supposed to mod recast timers but NO timers are mod-able in this expansion. Which actually screws Swashies even more with this new change. So Wis line debuff will become required essentially for all rogues. Swash still will need to take T-Swipe for the potency debuff (since those are rare as heck too) and will probably have to sacrifice SailWind to pull it all off.</blockquote>Well to tell the truth they need to change the new changes to unencumbered already since str debuffs are great now but very marginal since NOT all classes use str for damage anymore. The deft disarm debuff needs to effect str/agi/int/wis since they all effect damage now and not just str. Allow rogues the ability to EQUIP and use the stats from an offhand weapon/shield even if they dont auto atk w an offhand.

Notsovilepriest

09-27-2010, 09:24 PM

Geothe

09-27-2010, 09:31 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was corrected on another thread by a swash, that debuff is on Flamboyant strike now.</blockquote>Ah good, only took a couple of years for that change to happen. LOL

Notsovilepriest

09-27-2010, 11:23 PM

I jumped the gun, Yes, allow 2nd hand stats/procs but don't allow the weapon damage for the line, then good!

Treznet

09-27-2010, 11:55 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote> allow 2nd hand stats/procs but don't allow the weapon damage for the line, then good!</blockquote>agree, leaving us the ONLY class to have an empty offhand requirement leaves us open to this line repeating history and becoming usless again. You dont know what kind of procs or stats are going to be added in the future on weapons, the only way to make sure we have even equipment options is to remove the weapon restriction. To have the offhand not melee attack is fine that is the sacrifice we take for the line. I dont see why you devs are so intent on shoving this open offhand garbage down our throats. All we are asking for is to not completely lose an equipment slot, why is that so much to ask?

Toxicz

09-28-2010, 10:11 AM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some changes should be noticed on test soon (tm.) I can't promise they'll be there tomorrow, but they will be there soon.The changes are as follows:<ul><li>"Unencumberance" is now "Deft Disarm" and is in the first slot of the Wisdom line for Rogues. "Deft Disarm" deals minor damage and decreases the target's strength. Deft Disarm does not require an empty offhand.</li><li>"Freehand Reversal" now increases weapon damage bonus by 3% per rank following the first rank of 24%. The Riposte Chance has been changed to Multi Attack.</li><li>"Lunge Reversal" now refreshes every 15 seconds and is in the third slot of the Wisdom line for Rogues.</li><li>"Coule" now reduces Accuracy and Weapon Damage Bonus.</li></ul></blockquote>Not bad, much better than what it was, well kinda.Make lunge reversal a full time passive buff so whenever the rogue gets parried/blocked etc it procs, and have it add weapon bonus. If you were to do this, the line would be extremely appealing even at the loss of off-hand stats/procs

JoarAddam

09-28-2010, 10:47 AM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>While it may be SLIGHTLY less dps at the absolute worst. 51% base damage, 10% multiatk, and double damage potential on lung reversal. Every rogue would be silly not to take this line. The fact coule reduces accuracy by 30% and weapon damage bonus (auto atk damage) by whichever % is a huge debuff. This was never meant to be a DPS line but if they make it a GOOD debuff line then rogues will gain their role back which is debuffers. </blockquote>Its still a complete loss of Stats and Procs due to having a completely empty equipment slot which -NO OTHER- class is FORCED to do. At one point, there were some classes that had similar requirements, either empty slot, or specific weapon types required for certain AAs, but they were removed for every other class in the game, with the exception of rogues, because it is an utterly moronic thing to force players to do. And not sure how you are getting double damage for Lunge Reversal, currently 20 sec refresh, will be 15 sec. But proc is only on a missed attack as is, so its not even a regular proc chance.And now this line WILL be required for Raiding, because of the new totally unique debuff, so all rogues will be FORCED to lower their DPS in raids to take this line. Not to mention, where is the logic in adding a new raid required debuff (the new Coule) while our old raid required debuff (Traumatic Swipe) was already made 100% useless in raids this expansion already.Summary:If you are incapable of modifying this line to either remove the empty off hand requirement, or at least make it so Rogues actually -gain- DPS by spending 24 AAs in it. I dont even know what you are wasting your time modifying it in the first place.</blockquote>Actually, a crusader is still FORCED to sword and board to DPS. switch to a 2 hander and lose 25% damage bonus? It had better be a *really* good 2 hander.You want EVERY line to be a raiding line, and NOBODY has that. There isn't ONE class that can Pick ANY line and be better at raiding. Some classes have 2 MUST HAVE lines and 3 that rarely get past the first ability. Is there ONE Shadowknight out there anywhere all the way down the INT line? And, you haven't tested this yet. Boo hoo, My t2 dps is still T2... who cares, if you're debuffing the crap out of a mob so all the aoe auto and multiattacks and EVERY OTHER THING the mob does is greatly decreased, losing 5-8% of your DPS for it isn't that big of a deal. If you're losing more than 12-15%, i'd say the line needs more tweaking... Every line doesn't have to be a DPS line to be a good thing. And raiders can save a slot worth of DKP... And if you're in a "merit" guild (awful, I know... I did that for 4 years) you have to kiss the RL's rosy cheeks a little less.Go test it before you rant. I think it has the potential to make it an AWESOME solo/small group line. Maybe not the WHOLE line, but definitely parts of it. So it's not a raid line, boo hoo. Xelgad didn't come here and post "OMG GUISE, I made the most awesomest raid line EVAR" He's definitely making a bad line a little nicer.

Geothe

09-28-2010, 11:08 AM

<cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, a crusader is still FORCED to sword and board to DPS. switch to a 2 hander and lose 25% damage bonus? It had better be a *really* good 2 hander.You want EVERY line to be a raiding line, and NOBODY has that. There isn't ONE class that can Pick ANY line and be better at raiding. Some classes have 2 MUST HAVE lines and 3 that rarely get past the first ability. Is there ONE Shadowknight out there anywhere all the way down the INT line? And, you haven't tested this yet. Boo hoo, My t2 dps is still T2... who cares, if you're debuffing the crap out of a mob so all the aoe auto and multiattacks and EVERY OTHER THING the mob does is greatly decreased, losing 5-8% of your DPS for it isn't that big of a deal. If you're losing more than 12-15%, i'd say the line needs more tweaking... Every line doesn't have to be a DPS line to be a good thing. And raiders can save a slot worth of DKP... And if you're in a "merit" guild (awful, I know... I did that for 4 years) you have to kiss the RL's rosy cheeks a little less.Go test it before you rant. I think it has the potential to make it an AWESOME solo/small group line. Maybe not the WHOLE line, but definitely parts of it. So it's not a raid line, boo hoo. Xelgad didn't come here and post "OMG GUISE, I made the most awesomest raid line EVAR" He's definitely making a bad line a little nicer.</blockquote>Suggestion: Don't speak out of utter ignorance.Crusaders forced to sword and board to DPS?No, Crusaders GET to sword and board to do SOLID dps while still GETTING to use a shield... something that warriors cant even compare to. With the changes to 2Hander weapons last update, using a 2Hander is solidly more DPS, if the crusader wants to take the risk of losing that shield... something they have never had to do before, but warriors have to choose between every time. You have the /gasp OPTION. And guess what? That Shield gives you -STATS-. Wis line leaves no option, it leaves no stats. It is an archaic carry over which has no place in the current game.As for non-raid viable AA lines. Of course not every AA line is supposed to be raid viable. Guess what, currently on live Rogues have -3- of them which aren't for raids if go all the way to the endline. Moreover, you are trying to sell Wis line ans some solo/grouping spec? Do you have massive reading comprehension issues? Coule is going to become an absolutely required raid debuff. Accuracy reduction (this could be meh, depending on how raid mob accuracy is coded) and Weapon Damage bonus reduction (NO CLASS has a debuff like this in game, straigh pure percentage autoattack damage reduction will make a massive difference). How you can possibly think that won't be required for raids?! /boggled.

Dareena

09-28-2010, 11:11 AM

<cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Make lunge reversal a full time passive buff so whenever the rogue gets parried/blocked etc it procs, and have it add weapon bonus. If you were to do this, the line would be extremely appealing even at the loss of off-hand stats/procs</blockquote>Amen to that. People are going to be noticeably hit by the loss of an off-hand weapon. Not getting +Ability Stats, +Blue Stats, and +Procs is a serious hit. And since every part of the line which is worth something still requires this set up, we have to keep that in mind.Lunge Reversal is a very situation buff that will be very random when it procs off. If the buff was always up, then we would at least have a chance for it to be useful. I mean, we can't even control the conditions where it would trigger since it's completely reactive to the mob's defensive ability skill checks. By having the buff be up all of the time, we would at least have a chance for it to do something. Being able to only have it up part of the time makes the infrequently proc'ing buff even less useful.Otherwise this line is starting to look a lot better. If Lunge Reversal was up full time, I would definitely take this line as a Brigand. People have been telling me for 2 years that I'm not supposed to be a dps class. Even though I try to consistently prove them wrong on this "fact", sacrificing some of my potential dps output for the end line debuff does fit the current perception (and expectation) of my class. That may not be "right" in the big scheme of things, but that's where we are.

Toxicz

09-28-2010, 11:20 AM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, a crusader is still FORCED to sword and board to DPS. switch to a 2 hander and lose 25% damage bonus? It had better be a *really* good 2 hander.You want EVERY line to be a raiding line, and NOBODY has that. There isn't ONE class that can Pick ANY line and be better at raiding. Some classes have 2 MUST HAVE lines and 3 that rarely get past the first ability. Is there ONE Shadowknight out there anywhere all the way down the INT line? And, you haven't tested this yet. Boo hoo, My t2 dps is still T2... who cares, if you're debuffing the crap out of a mob so all the aoe auto and multiattacks and EVERY OTHER THING the mob does is greatly decreased, losing 5-8% of your DPS for it isn't that big of a deal. If you're losing more than 12-15%, i'd say the line needs more tweaking... Every line doesn't have to be a DPS line to be a good thing. And raiders can save a slot worth of DKP... And if you're in a "merit" guild (awful, I know... I did that for 4 years) you have to kiss the RL's rosy cheeks a little less.Go test it before you rant. I think it has the potential to make it an AWESOME solo/small group line. Maybe not the WHOLE line, but definitely parts of it. So it's not a raid line, boo hoo. Xelgad didn't come here and post "OMG GUISE, I made the most awesomest raid line EVAR" He's definitely making a bad line a little nicer.</blockquote>Suggestion: Don't speak out of utter ignorance.Crusaders forced to sword and board to DPS?No, Crusaders GET to sword and board to do SOLID dps while still GETTING to use a shield... something that warriors cant even compare to. With the changes to 2Hander weapons last update, using a 2Hander is solidly more DPS, if the crusader wants to take the risk of losing that shield... something they have never had to do before, but warriors have to choose between every time. You have the /gasp OPTION. And guess what? That Shield gives you -STATS-. Wis line leaves no option, it leaves no stats. It is an archaic carry over which has no place in the current game.As for non-raid viable AA lines. Of course not every AA line is supposed to be raid viable. Guess what, currently on live Rogues have -3- of them which aren't for raids if go all the way to the endline. Moreover, you are trying to sell Wis line ans some solo/grouping spec? Do you have massive reading comprehension issues? Coule is going to become an absolutely required raid debuff. Accuracy reduction (this could be meh, depending on how raid mob accuracy is coded) and Weapon Damage bonus reduction (NO CLASS has a debuff like this in game, straigh pure percentage autoattack damage reduction will make a massive difference). How you can possibly think that won't be required for raids?! /boggled. </blockquote>pure ownage

Treznet

09-28-2010, 11:22 AM

<cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>While it may be SLIGHTLY less dps at the absolute worst. 51% base damage, 10% multiatk, and double damage potential on lung reversal. Every rogue would be silly not to take this line. The fact coule reduces accuracy by 30% and weapon damage bonus (auto atk damage) by whichever % is a huge debuff. This was never meant to be a DPS line but if they make it a GOOD debuff line then rogues will gain their role back which is debuffers. </blockquote>Its still a complete loss of Stats and Procs due to having a completely empty equipment slot which -NO OTHER- class is FORCED to do. At one point, there were some classes that had similar requirements, either empty slot, or specific weapon types required for certain AAs, but they were removed for every other class in the game, with the exception of rogues, because it is an utterly moronic thing to force players to do. And not sure how you are getting double damage for Lunge Reversal, currently 20 sec refresh, will be 15 sec. But proc is only on a missed attack as is, so its not even a regular proc chance.And now this line WILL be required for Raiding, because of the new totally unique debuff, so all rogues will be FORCED to lower their DPS in raids to take this line. Not to mention, where is the logic in adding a new raid required debuff (the new Coule) while our old raid required debuff (Traumatic Swipe) was already made 100% useless in raids this expansion already.Summary:If you are incapable of modifying this line to either remove the empty off hand requirement, or at least make it so Rogues actually -gain- DPS by spending 24 AAs in it. I dont even know what you are wasting your time modifying it in the first place.</blockquote>Actually, a crusader is still FORCED to sword and board to DPS. switch to a 2 hander and lose 25% damage bonus? It had better be a *really* good 2 hander.You want EVERY line to be a raiding line, and NOBODY has that. There isn't ONE class that can Pick ANY line and be better at raiding. Some classes have 2 MUST HAVE lines and 3 that rarely get past the first ability. Is there ONE Shadowknight out there anywhere all the way down the INT line? And, you haven't tested this yet. Boo hoo, My t2 dps is still T2... who cares, if you're debuffing the crap out of a mob so all the aoe auto and multiattacks and EVERY OTHER THING the mob does is greatly decreased, losing 5-8% of your DPS for it isn't that big of a deal. If you're losing more than 12-15%, i'd say the line needs more tweaking... Every line doesn't have to be a DPS line to be a good thing. And raiders can save a slot worth of DKP... And if you're in a "merit" guild (awful, I know... I did that for 4 years) you have to kiss the RL's rosy cheeks a little less.Go test it before you rant. I think it has the potential to make it an AWESOME solo/small group line. Maybe not the WHOLE line, but definitely parts of it. So it's not a raid line, boo hoo. Xelgad didn't come here and post "OMG GUISE, I made the most awesomest raid line EVAR" He's definitely making a bad line a little nicer.</blockquote>[Removed for Content] yeah sks got it pretty rough. Post again when you know what your talking about.

Samulbrar

09-28-2010, 11:48 AM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=450973&post_id=5423366" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=45097...post_id=5423366</a> Highly inappropriate language.

EQPrime

09-28-2010, 12:41 PM

<cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is there ONE Shadowknight out there anywhere all the way down the INT line? </blockquote>Any SK tanking end game stuff should have Legionnaire's Conviction.As far as the Rogue Wis Line goes there are a few ways to improve things without making it overpowered. The dev team could remove the 2s delay between swapping gear in-combat, which is a remnant from when you could still actually swap gear besides weapons and shields in-combat. If they remove that then rogues could macro in unwielding the secondary weapon, hitting coule, and then equipping the weapon in the next CA. Sure it takes a lot of wasted points to get that far down the tree but the same can be said for AA abilities for other classes.Either remove the 2s delay for in-combat weapon changes, remove the empty off-hand requirement for Coule, or allow rogues to use a shield in the off hand with the wis line (and then go ahead and add some round shields in this expansion, because there aren't any at all.)

Gungo

09-28-2010, 12:44 PM

There is nothing wrong with this line IF they allow rogues to equip an offhand item. Actually at this point I think rogues would be happy to use a shield with this line.In fact if they did allow a sheild for this line it would make taking the stamina line a little more appealing.I have a feeling SOE doesnt have the time of desire to code a change into the game to allow an offhand weapon NOT to work and be equipable. Xelgad however does have the time to simply change this line to ALLOW shields.That change alone would make this line situational but a decent line.

Geothe

09-28-2010, 12:47 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is nothing wrong with this line IF they allow rogues to equip an offhand item. Actually at this point I think rogues would be happy to use a shield with this line.In fact if they did allow a sheild for this line it would make taking the stamina line a little more appealing.I have a feeling SOE doesnt have the time of desire to code a change into the game to allow an offhand weapon NOT to work and be equipable. Xelgad however does have the time to simply change this line to ALLOW shields.That change alone would make this line situational but a decent line.</blockquote>Round Shields would actually have to be added to T9 Loot tables too. [Removed for Content].But the easiest change would be to remove the empty offhand requirement and reduce freehand reversal a lot. Like to ~20% base damage mod when maxed out. Fast change, easy change, makes the line actually good change.

Gungo

09-28-2010, 12:51 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is nothing wrong with this line IF they allow rogues to equip an offhand item. Actually at this point I think rogues would be happy to use a shield with this line.In fact if they did allow a sheild for this line it would make taking the stamina line a little more appealing.I have a feeling SOE doesnt have the time or desire to code a change into the game to allow an offhand weapon NOT to work and be equipable. Xelgad however does have the time to simply change this line to ALLOW shields.That change alone would make this line situational but a decent line.</blockquote>Round Shields would actually have to be added to T9 Loot tables too. [Removed for Content].But the easiest change would be to remove the empty offhand requirement and reduce freehand reversal a lot. Like to ~20% base damage mod when maxed out. Fast change, easy change, makes the line actually good change.</blockquote>True but that is not xelgads department. However if rogues were using shields more often, along with the situational bard, we might actually see more round shields in game. Fix bad mechanics first then make sure itemization is there.Xelgad made it clear he is not making this line into a DPS increase for rogues. So he will NOT allow both weapons and give you 20% weapon bonus damage, along with giving you the best debuff in game from this line.

Darkor

09-28-2010, 01:12 PM

<cite>JoarAddam wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, a crusader is still FORCED to sword and board to DPS. switch to a 2 hander and lose 25% damage bonus? It had better be a *really* good 2 hander.You want EVERY line to be a raiding line, and NOBODY has that. There isn't ONE class that can Pick ANY line and be better at raiding. Some classes have 2 MUST HAVE lines and 3 that rarely get past the first ability. Is there ONE Shadowknight out there anywhere all the way down the INT line? And, you haven't tested this yet. Boo hoo, My t2 dps is still T2... who cares, if you're debuffing the crap out of a mob so all the aoe auto and multiattacks and EVERY OTHER THING the mob does is greatly decreased, losing 5-8% of your DPS for it isn't that big of a deal. If you're losing more than 12-15%, i'd say the line needs more tweaking... Every line doesn't have to be a DPS line to be a good thing. And raiders can save a slot worth of DKP... And if you're in a "merit" guild (awful, I know... I did that for 4 years) you have to kiss the RL's rosy cheeks a little less.Go test it before you rant. I think it has the potential to make it an AWESOME solo/small group line. Maybe not the WHOLE line, but definitely parts of it. So it's not a raid line, boo hoo. Xelgad didn't come here and post "OMG GUISE, I made the most awesomest raid line EVAR" He's definitely making a bad line a little nicer.</blockquote>Are you crazy? Who let this guy out?!?!You have no idea what you are talking about. Did you actually, i mean SERIOUSLY, complain that a crusader has to equip a shield in order to dps? What the hell is wrong with this statement? Dude. Could it be better than that? I mean, do you actually have a problem that the knight stance line requires you to equip a SHIELD in order to work? Wow.Warriors have to sacrifice their avoidance by equipping a second weapon to go dual wield style. A paladin keeps ALL his defensive stuff while also being in "DPS mode". That sir is a perfect example how we want it.Rogues on other side have to REMOVE our second weapon (kinda like warrior giving up their shield to dps) to go down an AA line that is not better. And that is exactly the problem. Why would anyone go down a line, waste 20+ AAs and be worse than before? Noone in their right mind would do that. Crusaders on the other side do not have to worry about it. They get their weapon dmg bonus with a shield. No other class has this luxurary.Every line a raid line lolmao. Do you even play a rogue? Stamina line = Crap. Wisdom line = Utterly useless. Int line = wow lets not even start talking about this one. Every rogue out there is specced the same, there is no difference and this sux. I want choices. Other classes have insane AAs and they have to break their minds deciding which one to go down, which to pick first. We only have 1 choice and thats it. And even with this change i highly doubt the Wisdom line will be more desired. Yeah the last change is better but still not good enough. Either the weapon restriction has to be removed or the line has to be better or there is no way im gonna give up a second weapon with stats/blue stats/auto attack dmg/a proc or two including an adornment.Next time you come here please have a clue about what you are talking about. That nonsense of yours should be removed imho because you lack some basic knowledge to even talk about the matter.

Darkor

09-28-2010, 01:14 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is nothing wrong with this line IF they allow rogues to equip an offhand item. Actually at this point I think rogues would be happy to use a shield with this line.In fact if they did allow a sheild for this line it would make taking the stamina line a little more appealing.I have a feeling SOE doesnt have the time or desire to code a change into the game to allow an offhand weapon NOT to work and be equipable. Xelgad however does have the time to simply change this line to ALLOW shields.That change alone would make this line situational but a decent line.</blockquote>Round Shields would actually have to be added to T9 Loot tables too. [Removed for Content].But the easiest change would be to remove the empty offhand requirement and reduce freehand reversal a lot. Like to ~20% base damage mod when maxed out. Fast change, easy change, makes the line actually good change.</blockquote>True but that is not xelgads department. However if rogues were using shields more often, along with the situational bard, we might actually see more round shields in game. Fix bad mechanics first then make sure itemization is there.Xelgad made it clear he is not making this line into a DPS increase for rogues. So he will NOT allow both weapons and give you 20% weapon bonus damage, along with giving you the best debuff in game from this line.</blockquote>It does not have to be 20 % base dmg. Give it 10 % base dmg, some double attack and the current procs. Thats it, no magic was involved here.

Dareena

09-28-2010, 01:24 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>It does not have to be 20 % base dmg. Give it 10 % base dmg, some double attack and the current procs. Thats it, no magic was involved here.</blockquote>The only issue is that this line would become the same issue the Rogues have to deal with right now. We lack choices. Under your proposed changes (which are beneficial for Rogues), EVERY Rogue should have Agi and Wis for their Herioc / Raid spec. Then for their PvP / Solo spec, you're looking at Str and Agi since TS is just too powerful for PvP. That's it.Right now the Str line is a joke for T9 raid Rogues. The bonuses to +Crit and +Defense can easily be made up with gear and a few adornments. So under your revised proposal, Rogues really lose nothing from their raid spec and gain everything. Wow. Our dps output gets jacked up, we get one of the most amazing debuffs available, and there's no down sides?Don't get me wrong. I hate the idea of losing any dps as a Brigand since I'm we're already on the back of the bus when compared to a Swash's dps output. And don't even get me started on the new AE auto attacks with off-handers and Brigands being completely out of the loop on that subject. However the changes you're proposing are just unbalanced.

Gungo

09-28-2010, 01:30 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is nothing wrong with this line IF they allow rogues to equip an offhand item. Actually at this point I think rogues would be happy to use a shield with this line.In fact if they did allow a sheild for this line it would make taking the stamina line a little more appealing.I have a feeling SOE doesnt have the time or desire to code a change into the game to allow an offhand weapon NOT to work and be equipable. Xelgad however does have the time to simply change this line to ALLOW shields.That change alone would make this line situational but a decent line.</blockquote>Round Shields would actually have to be added to T9 Loot tables too. [Removed for Content].But the easiest change would be to remove the empty offhand requirement and reduce freehand reversal a lot. Like to ~20% base damage mod when maxed out. Fast change, easy change, makes the line actually good change.</blockquote>True but that is not xelgads department. However if rogues were using shields more often, along with the situational bard, we might actually see more round shields in game. Fix bad mechanics first then make sure itemization is there.Xelgad made it clear he is not making this line into a DPS increase for rogues. So he will NOT allow both weapons and give you 20% weapon bonus damage, along with giving you the best debuff in game from this line.</blockquote>It does not have to be 20 % base dmg. Give it 10 % base dmg, some double attack and the current procs. Thats it, no magic was involved here.</blockquote>You do realize 10% base damage, 10% multiatk and increased current procs is a dps boost dont you?You do realize that is NOT his intention to increase your dps.You will not be getting a noticeable dps increase from this line. He flat out said that. Ask to equip a shield since he said that was the intention of this AA line.

Darkor

09-28-2010, 01:33 PM

<cite>Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>It does not have to be 20 % base dmg. Give it 10 % base dmg, some double attack and the current procs. Thats it, no magic was involved here.</blockquote>The only issue is that this line would become the same issue the Rogues have to deal with right now. We lack choices. Under your proposed changes (which are beneficial for Rogues), EVERY Rogue should have Agi and Wis for their Herioc / Raid spec. Then for their PvP / Solo spec, you're looking at Str and Agi since TS is just too powerful for PvP. That's it.Right now the Str line is a joke for T9 raid Rogues. The bonuses to +Crit and +Defense can easily be made up with gear and a few adornments. So under your revised proposal, Rogues really lose nothing from their raid spec and gain everything. Wow. Our dps output gets jacked up, we get one of the most amazing debuffs available, and there's no down sides?Don't get me wrong. I hate the idea of losing any dps as a Brigand since I'm we're already on the back of the bus when compared to a Swash's dps output. And don't even get me started on the new AE auto attacks with off-handers and Brigands being completely out of the loop on that subject. However the changes you're proposing are just unbalanced.</blockquote>Choices, exactly. And me being a pvp player i would have to make a very hard choice. Torp. Strike or this new debuff? That is hard enough imo but talking about giving everything. What about the warrior buckler line. You pick up buckler and dps, but loose avoidance. You drop buckler line you gain defense but lose dps. What did SoE do? Remove the restriction and just [Removed for Content] the line. Appearently that cannot be done for us. Thats the luxury other classes get. Monk is my next example. The fist line had its weapon restriction removed but gimped in a way its not OP. Just another classes that get this luxury. Assassins? One kick butt AA line after another. Rogues? 3 COMPLETELY USELESS AA LINES SINCE 2 years+. Yeah the shield line can be helpful when leveling or tanking, but guess what? I can tank all the content even without that line. And i wouldnt even complain if Xelgad hadnt touched the line at all, but he did. So why not take the chance and make it into something usefull while you are at it? Thats all we ask. Dev time was spent here and the result is ridiculous. 3 out of 5 lines are useless, that was gonna change, it didnt. So we are here giving ideas which is a good thing and should be respected. We are asking for some love, love that especially the brigand class didnt get for ages (Im a Swashy now btw).

Darkor

09-28-2010, 01:36 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is nothing wrong with this line IF they allow rogues to equip an offhand item. Actually at this point I think rogues would be happy to use a shield with this line.In fact if they did allow a sheild for this line it would make taking the stamina line a little more appealing.I have a feeling SOE doesnt have the time or desire to code a change into the game to allow an offhand weapon NOT to work and be equipable. Xelgad however does have the time to simply change this line to ALLOW shields.That change alone would make this line situational but a decent line.</blockquote>Round Shields would actually have to be added to T9 Loot tables too. [Removed for Content].But the easiest change would be to remove the empty offhand requirement and reduce freehand reversal a lot. Like to ~20% base damage mod when maxed out. Fast change, easy change, makes the line actually good change.</blockquote>True but that is not xelgads department. However if rogues were using shields more often, along with the situational bard, we might actually see more round shields in game. Fix bad mechanics first then make sure itemization is there.Xelgad made it clear he is not making this line into a DPS increase for rogues. So he will NOT allow both weapons and give you 20% weapon bonus damage, along with giving you the best debuff in game from this line.</blockquote>It does not have to be 20 % base dmg. Give it 10 % base dmg, some double attack and the current procs. Thats it, no magic was involved here.</blockquote>You do realize 10% base damage, 10% multiatk and increased current procs is a dps boost dont you?You do realize that is NOT his intention to increase your dps.You will not be getting a noticeable dps increase from this line. He flat out said that. Ask to equip a shield since he said that was the intention of this AA line.</blockquote>You do realize he wants this line to be a support line? You do realize that we allready have a AA line that completely fits this play style? You do realize, even tho Xelgad is a dev, he can make stuff that will be completely useless? Happend alot in the past and will happen a lot in the future. You do realize that this section is in testing feedback and thats what we all are doing?Questions over questions. I didnt know that a dev saying something has to mean its set in stone and cant be changed even tho the changes are bad.Another thing, arent you a Bruiser? What are your matters on this AA line if you dont even play a rogue?

Malacha

09-28-2010, 01:36 PM

Dareena, the problem is that people aren't asking for a DPS boost for this one... we're asking for our DPS to remain similar! If we are going to put 20+ points into this line, there needs to be some kind of reward for it. The debuff right now LOOKS nice, it really does, but we don't honestly know yet how good or bad it is. Traumatic Swipe looks good too, but we all know at this point in the game it doesn't work on most mobs.I am honestly against having to remove a weapon to make this line work. There's just too much that offhand weapon brings, especially with the new multi-attack changes, and the changes to off-hand auto attacks.... even tho Brigands got the smallest boost on those changes, we don't want to lose them because we are forced into a line that removes our offhand.Xelgad, honestly you've been trying hard to get certain big changes done, like the change to TimeWarp (its nice now, thanks!) and now working on this line. I know you can make it work to be a line that rogues wouldn't mind taking for the benefit of that debuff. Just don't make us lose a weapon.... Don't you know a rogues only friends are his (or her!) weapons?!

Dareena

09-28-2010, 01:49 PM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dareena, the problem is that people aren't asking for a DPS boost for this one... we're asking for our DPS to remain similar!</blockquote>Trust me. I understand. It's not like I haven't already expressed my multiple comments earlier in this thread...But the post which I was specifically quoting was about giving Rogues the best of both worlds. Now other classes may be able to get away with those choices, but Xelgad's comments have made it clear that this won't the case with our Wisdom line changes.Yes, the Str end line is useless in T9 raiding based on how the devs have the Reuse mechanics working. But even with that in mind, most of us are still Str and Agi. I know I am. So if we have to move all of our wasted Str points into Wis, we really aren't losing much from an AA perspective. But as we all agree, it is also a poor situation if we're forced into losing a chunk of dps in order to get a single raid debuff. Now I am personally crazy enough to work with the "take a hit for the team" mentality, but that's still kind of annoying if we have to walk the path of martyrs.Gungo's solution is actually kind of decent. If Xelgad's proposed changes are the new base line, we change Lunge Reversal to a permanent buff, and we let the line use shields, then that could be a compromise. Rogues can still get stats off of shields, even if we're forced to use T8 shields from TSO since there aren't T9 round shields (which is another moronic subject). But at the same time, we'll also be losing some dps for this line. All in all, that seems to be Xelgad's point of the line. Our new end line will cost you dps output in exchange for raid survival output. However giving us Blue Stats and adornments on our shields will help to mitigate some of the losses.

Malacha

09-28-2010, 01:54 PM

<cite>Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Our new end line will cost you dps output in exchange for raid survival output. However giving us Blue Stats and adornments on our shields will help to mitigate some of the losses.</blockquote>I would agree with this if there were shields in the current tier. For me to have to beg my guild to go do TSO zones for a chance at me getting a shield to equip is dumb, and being forced to equip a crappy crafted one is even dumber. I would fully support allowing shields instead of an empty offhand, IF THERE WERE SHIELD OPTIONS AVAILABLE. I won't agree with making that requirement unless there is actually something I can equip there to put an adornment on. Otherwise, I'd just end up with an empty slot anyway.

Treznet

09-28-2010, 02:17 PM

I dont see us getting to use a shield in the wis line happening. Its a nice thought but not gonna happen.

Dareena

09-28-2010, 02:22 PM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote>For me to have to beg my guild to go do TSO zones for a chance at me getting a shield to equip is dumb, and being forced to equip a crappy crafted one is even dumber.</blockquote>Once again, we agree there. I'm considered a "Friend" slot on the raid guild who I often run with. My having to ask them to drop kick some of the old TSO zones isn't likely to go over well. Especially if we have multiple Rogues there and the shields don't want to drop for us.Now per Kander, there are upcoming items to be added to the raid Seals vendors. If hell freezes over, perhaps we'll see a half way decent Round Shield added there as a way of getting around mob drops. Assuming that we can get a Seals version of a scout Round Shield added in for GU58 to compliment the GU58 Wisdom line changes, then that would be acceptable to me.Otherwise I'm going to be forced to join the random server PUGs that occassional hit TSO target just for a small chance of winning the round shield drops. And that's going to royally suck. The things I do to be a debuffer. Grumble grumble...

Gungo

09-28-2010, 02:26 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is nothing wrong with this line IF they allow rogues to equip an offhand item. Actually at this point I think rogues would be happy to use a shield with this line.In fact if they did allow a sheild for this line it would make taking the stamina line a little more appealing.I have a feeling SOE doesnt have the time or desire to code a change into the game to allow an offhand weapon NOT to work and be equipable. Xelgad however does have the time to simply change this line to ALLOW shields.That change alone would make this line situational but a decent line.</blockquote>Round Shields would actually have to be added to T9 Loot tables too. [Removed for Content].But the easiest change would be to remove the empty offhand requirement and reduce freehand reversal a lot. Like to ~20% base damage mod when maxed out. Fast change, easy change, makes the line actually good change.</blockquote>True but that is not xelgads department. However if rogues were using shields more often, along with the situational bard, we might actually see more round shields in game. Fix bad mechanics first then make sure itemization is there.Xelgad made it clear he is not making this line into a DPS increase for rogues. So he will NOT allow both weapons and give you 20% weapon bonus damage, along with giving you the best debuff in game from this line.</blockquote>It does not have to be 20 % base dmg. Give it 10 % base dmg, some double attack and the current procs. Thats it, no magic was involved here.</blockquote>You do realize 10% base damage, 10% multiatk and increased current procs is a dps boost dont you?You do realize that is NOT his intention to increase your dps.You will not be getting a noticeable dps increase from this line. He flat out said that. Ask to equip a shield since he said that was the intention of this AA line.</blockquote>You do realize he wants this line to be a support line? You do realize that we allready have a AA line that completely fits this play style? You do realize, even tho Xelgad is a dev, he can make stuff that will be completely useless? Happend alot in the past and will happen a lot in the future. You do realize that this section is in testing feedback and thats what we all are doing?Questions over questions. I didnt know that a dev saying something has to mean its set in stone and cant be changed even tho the changes are bad.Another thing, arent you a Bruiser? What are your matters on this AA line if you dont even play a rogue?</blockquote>You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. He NEVER mentioned support line. I honestly cant make this any more simple for you to understand without bringing out the crayons for you.<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious as to how much of an effect a 30% accuracy reduction has on raid mobs anyways. Currently they don't really seem to miss, just get avoided. Would this change them to having a 70% hit rate instead of a 100% hit rate?</blockquote>It would counter accuracy buffs (up to 30%, obviously) if the target has them and if the target does not, it will reduce their hit rate substantially.This line is not intended to be a DPS line. This line is more geared at solo/group play/tanking/utility. As mentioned earlier in the thread, you will only see an increase in DPS by using this line if you have one weapon that's noticably better than your other weapons. The line is set up to increase survivability, add a powerful debuff option should you want to use it and increase your one-handed weapon's damage to be the same as a bow or two handed weapon. That said, there may be some changes but we're not going to promise anything.</blockquote>

Darkor

09-28-2010, 02:30 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is nothing wrong with this line IF they allow rogues to equip an offhand item. Actually at this point I think rogues would be happy to use a shield with this line.In fact if they did allow a sheild for this line it would make taking the stamina line a little more appealing.I have a feeling SOE doesnt have the time or desire to code a change into the game to allow an offhand weapon NOT to work and be equipable. Xelgad however does have the time to simply change this line to ALLOW shields.That change alone would make this line situational but a decent line.</blockquote>Round Shields would actually have to be added to T9 Loot tables too. [Removed for Content].But the easiest change would be to remove the empty offhand requirement and reduce freehand reversal a lot. Like to ~20% base damage mod when maxed out. Fast change, easy change, makes the line actually good change.</blockquote>True but that is not xelgads department. However if rogues were using shields more often, along with the situational bard, we might actually see more round shields in game. Fix bad mechanics first then make sure itemization is there.Xelgad made it clear he is not making this line into a DPS increase for rogues. So he will NOT allow both weapons and give you 20% weapon bonus damage, along with giving you the best debuff in game from this line.</blockquote>It does not have to be 20 % base dmg. Give it 10 % base dmg, some double attack and the current procs. Thats it, no magic was involved here.</blockquote>You do realize 10% base damage, 10% multiatk and increased current procs is a dps boost dont you?You do realize that is NOT his intention to increase your dps.You will not be getting a noticeable dps increase from this line. He flat out said that. Ask to equip a shield since he said that was the intention of this AA line.</blockquote>You do realize he wants this line to be a support line? You do realize that we allready have a AA line that completely fits this play style? You do realize, even tho Xelgad is a dev, he can make stuff that will be completely useless? Happend alot in the past and will happen a lot in the future. You do realize that this section is in testing feedback and thats what we all are doing?Questions over questions. I didnt know that a dev saying something has to mean its set in stone and cant be changed even tho the changes are bad.Another thing, arent you a Bruiser? What are your matters on this AA line if you dont even play a rogue?</blockquote>You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. He NEVER mentioned support line. I honestly cant make this any more simple for you to understand without bringing out the crayons for you.<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious as to how much of an effect a 30% accuracy reduction has on raid mobs anyways. Currently they don't really seem to miss, just get avoided. Would this change them to having a 70% hit rate instead of a 100% hit rate?</blockquote>It would counter accuracy buffs (up to 30%, obviously) if the target has them and if the target does not, it will reduce their hit rate substantially.This line is not intended to be a DPS line. This line is more geared at solo/group play/tanking/utility. As mentioned earlier in the thread, you will only see an increase in DPS by using this line if you have one weapon that's noticably better than your other weapons. The line is set up to increase survivability, add a powerful debuff option should you want to use it and increase your one-handed weapon's damage to be the same as a bow or two handed weapon. That said, there may be some changes but we're not going to promise anything.</blockquote></blockquote>My bad, i didnt mean support line. I meant utility line, the silly german mixed up the two words.

Gungo

09-28-2010, 02:33 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is nothing wrong with this line IF they allow rogues to equip an offhand item. Actually at this point I think rogues would be happy to use a shield with this line.In fact if they did allow a sheild for this line it would make taking the stamina line a little more appealing.I have a feeling SOE doesnt have the time or desire to code a change into the game to allow an offhand weapon NOT to work and be equipable. Xelgad however does have the time to simply change this line to ALLOW shields.That change alone would make this line situational but a decent line.</blockquote>Round Shields would actually have to be added to T9 Loot tables too. [Removed for Content].But the easiest change would be to remove the empty offhand requirement and reduce freehand reversal a lot. Like to ~20% base damage mod when maxed out. Fast change, easy change, makes the line actually good change.</blockquote>True but that is not xelgads department. However if rogues were using shields more often, along with the situational bard, we might actually see more round shields in game. Fix bad mechanics first then make sure itemization is there.Xelgad made it clear he is not making this line into a DPS increase for rogues. So he will NOT allow both weapons and give you 20% weapon bonus damage, along with giving you the best debuff in game from this line.</blockquote>It does not have to be 20 % base dmg. Give it 10 % base dmg, some double attack and the current procs. Thats it, no magic was involved here.</blockquote>You do realize 10% base damage, 10% multiatk and increased current procs is a dps boost dont you?You do realize that is NOT his intention to increase your dps.You will not be getting a noticeable dps increase from this line. He flat out said that. Ask to equip a shield since he said that was the intention of this AA line.</blockquote>You do realize he wants this line to be a support line? You do realize that we allready have a AA line that completely fits this play style? You do realize, even tho Xelgad is a dev, he can make stuff that will be completely useless? Happend alot in the past and will happen a lot in the future. You do realize that this section is in testing feedback and thats what we all are doing?Questions over questions. I didnt know that a dev saying something has to mean its set in stone and cant be changed even tho the changes are bad.Another thing, arent you a Bruiser? What are your matters on this AA line if you dont even play a rogue?</blockquote>You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. He NEVER mentioned support line. I honestly cant make this any more simple for you to understand without bringing out the crayons for you.<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aule@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious as to how much of an effect a 30% accuracy reduction has on raid mobs anyways. Currently they don't really seem to miss, just get avoided. Would this change them to having a 70% hit rate instead of a 100% hit rate?</blockquote>It would counter accuracy buffs (up to 30%, obviously) if the target has them and if the target does not, it will reduce their hit rate substantially.This line is not intended to be a DPS line. This line is more geared at solo/group play/tanking/utility. As mentioned earlier in the thread, you will only see an increase in DPS by using this line if you have one weapon that's noticably better than your other weapons. The line is set up to increase survivability, add a powerful debuff option should you want to use it and increase your one-handed weapon's damage to be the same as a bow or two handed weapon. That said, there may be some changes but we're not going to promise anything.</blockquote></blockquote>My bad, i didnt mean support line. I meant utility line, the silly german mixed up the two words.</blockquote>He actually means for it to increase surviviability, not necessarily utility. The debuff while it is raid utility is a debuff that increases Surviviability for the ROGUE.Following that logic. HE should allow shields since it is primarily a SURVIVABILITY line.

Geothe

09-28-2010, 02:47 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. He NEVER mentioned support line. I honestly cant make this any more simple for you to understand without bringing out the crayons for you.</blockquote>And Xelgad himself had no idea what he was talking about when he made that statement. He even claimed it was a tanking line, because of the 10% Riposte chance despite the fact Rogues already have a purely tanking line AA which would be mutually exclusiive with the Wis line, and then in the most recent changes Xelgad went and removed the "tanking" portion of his new Wis line, the 10% riposte chance.Conclusion: He hasn't even decided himself the end purpose of the line, as he's already completely removed one facet of his original plans... i think more due to the fact that he was oblivious to the current Stamina line altogether. But it just shows that nothing is set in stone, save for the possibility of mule-headedness.

Gungo

09-28-2010, 02:59 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. He NEVER mentioned support line. I honestly cant make this any more simple for you to understand without bringing out the crayons for you.</blockquote>And Xelgad himself had no idea what he was talking about when he made that statement. He even claimed it was a tanking line, because of the 10% Riposte chance despite the fact Rogues already have a purely tanking line AA which would be mutually exclusiive with the Wis line, and then in the most recent changes Xelgad went and removed the "tanking" portion of his new Wis line, the 10% riposte chance.Conclusion: He hasn't even decided himself the end purpose of the line, as he's already completely removed one facet of his original plans... i think more due to the fact that he was oblivious to the current Stamina line altogether. But it just shows that nothing is set in stone, save for the possibility of mule-headedness.</blockquote>He said it is meant for survivability. Regardless of that fact he was utterly clear on his intention that this line is not meant to increase DPS. Repeated requests for dualwielding with extra base weapon damage and other dps options is probably not going to help since there was never any indication xelgad wanted to increase rogue dps at all(especially a shared rogue line swashies do not warrant increased dps potential). This is my last post/suggestion on thsi subject. You can continue to argue for roundabout ways of increasing dps in hopes xelgad will not notice. I still think you are shooting yourself in the foot without requesting changes that actually might get implemented, such as usable shields. you are also correct a survivibility line that is mutually exclusive from the tanking line is beyond assanine. Which is another reason why shields should be allowed.The easiest way to resolve this issue is to allow rogues to use sheilds with Freehand reversal and lunge reversal.and make coule not require a shield/empty offhand. This would further give rogues more flexibility without increasing dps and allow rogues to equip a shield when desired without a signifcant loss of dps potential.

Geothe

09-28-2010, 03:07 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. He NEVER mentioned support line. I honestly cant make this any more simple for you to understand without bringing out the crayons for you.</blockquote>And Xelgad himself had no idea what he was talking about when he made that statement. He even claimed it was a tanking line, because of the 10% Riposte chance despite the fact Rogues already have a purely tanking line AA which would be mutually exclusiive with the Wis line, and then in the most recent changes Xelgad went and removed the "tanking" portion of his new Wis line, the 10% riposte chance.Conclusion: He hasn't even decided himself the end purpose of the line, as he's already completely removed one facet of his original plans... i think more due to the fact that he was oblivious to the current Stamina line altogether. But it just shows that nothing is set in stone, save for the possibility of mule-headedness.</blockquote>He said it is meant for survivability. Regardless of that fact he was utterly clear on his intention that this line is not meant to increase DPS. Repeated requests for dualwielding with extra base weapon damage and other dps options is probably not going to help since there was never any indication xelgad wanted to increase rogue dps at all.The easiest way to resolve this issue is to allow rogues to use sheilds with Freehand reversal and lunge reversal.and make coule not require a shield/empty offhand. This would further give rogues more flexibility without increasing dps.</blockquote>And I'd have no prob with a shield in that slot, if they actually itemize round shields to go out WITH THIS update that aren't worthless POS things. And toss them on Mark and Seal merchants so we dont have to refarm old-lame mobs in order to try and aquire them.

Nevao

09-28-2010, 03:11 PM

Granted we haven't seen the exact numbers yet but based on what we know I would have to agree that changing "no off hand" to "no offhand weapon" (allowing for shields) plus a Seals of Arad shield until itemzation can be evened out and I think we're pretty close to the mark.As for Lunge Reversal I haven't had a chance to really play with it. Does it give you one proc for each trigger type every 30/15 seconds or is just one proc that can be triggered by x number of triggers every 30/15 seconds.

Treznet

09-28-2010, 03:15 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have NO IDEA what you are talking about. He NEVER mentioned support line. I honestly cant make this any more simple for you to understand without bringing out the crayons for you.</blockquote>And Xelgad himself had no idea what he was talking about when he made that statement. He even claimed it was a tanking line, because of the 10% Riposte chance despite the fact Rogues already have a purely tanking line AA which would be mutually exclusiive with the Wis line, and then in the most recent changes Xelgad went and removed the "tanking" portion of his new Wis line, the 10% riposte chance.Conclusion: He hasn't even decided himself the end purpose of the line, as he's already completely removed one facet of his original plans... i think more due to the fact that he was oblivious to the current Stamina line altogether. But it just shows that nothing is set in stone, save for the possibility of mule-headedness.</blockquote>He said it is meant for survivability. Regardless of that fact he was utterly clear on his intention that this line is not meant to increase DPS. Repeated requests for dualwielding with extra base weapon damage and other dps options is probably not going to help since there was never any indication xelgad wanted to increase rogue dps at all.The easiest way to resolve this issue is to allow rogues to use sheilds with Freehand reversal and lunge reversal.and make coule not require a shield/empty offhand. This would further give rogues more flexibility without increasing dps.</blockquote>We in no way need to be having shields on another line. I dont want to be more survivable, tanking ability, or more anything else that doesnt involve either dps or debuffing. That is our job and we need to get back to it. While I dont expext to see this line changed to a dual wielding line with increased dps I would like to see it be at least another option to use raiding. I know it doesnt effect swash as much but most all melee classes have an aoe line. I dont expect to see one with the large amount of aoe dps a swash can already put out. but where does that leave the brigs? This line is close to being an option. If your offhand was just unable to attack and just used for stats.

Darkor

09-28-2010, 03:18 PM

I personally dont like the idea with the shield as it does not benifit in any way. What exactly are you hoping to do with the shield that you cannot without?

Notsovilepriest

09-28-2010, 03:20 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally dont like the idea with the shield as it does not benifit in any way. What exactly are you hoping to do with the shield that you cannot without?</blockquote>Gain blue stats from it, as well as get the weapon bonus from the line I'm guessing? To get the endline from it since it will be useful especially for raiding, if it actually works right.

Geothe

09-28-2010, 03:21 PM

<cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote>Granted we haven't seen the exact numbers yet but based on what we know I would have to agree that changing "no off hand" to "no offhand weapon" (allowing for shields) plus a Seals of Arad shield until itemzation can be evened out and I think we're pretty close to the mark.As for Lunge Reversal I haven't had a chance to really play with it. Does it give you one proc for each trigger type every 30/15 seconds or is just one proc that can be triggered by x number of triggers every 30/15 seconds.</blockquote>Mathematically. Looking at pure autoattack damage. Say you had 2 weapons with identical damage ratings. DWing both of them would give you the same DPS as Single Wielding 1 of them with a 50% base damage increase... that is why Xelgad keeps setting base damage to approx 50%. That doesn't take into account the loss of stats and procs due to a completely empty equipment slot, which is where one of the major issues with this entire change centers.As for Lunge Reversal. On live it is at 20 sec, not 30 sec reuse on the trigger. The way it works is if your target avoids your attack in some manner, you proc Lunge Reversal on them to add damage. And after that proc, you cant get another proc until the cool down expires (currently 20 sec on live, 15 sec in new changes on test). But that damage is entirely dependant upon missing attacks too, so it will only add anything where you have a bad hit rate, and at the very most 4 triggers per minute. Realistically, it will be much lower than 4 triggers per minute however.

Geothe

09-28-2010, 03:25 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally dont like the idea with the shield as it does not benifit in any way. What exactly are you hoping to do with the shield that you cannot without?</blockquote>The shield idea is on the assumption that new, decent Round Shields would be added into the game at the same time (ie, round shield with decent crit bonus/potency and a damage proc.. which round shields had in the past). Then there would be no loss of stats/adorns/procs due to the empty offhand BS requirement, as those would be found on the shield.

Darkor

09-28-2010, 03:25 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally dont like the idea with the shield as it does not benifit in any way. What exactly are you hoping to do with the shield that you cannot without?</blockquote>Gain blue stats from it, as well as get the weapon bonus from the line I'm guessing? To get the endline from it since it will be useful especially for raiding, if it actually works right.</blockquote>In the end its still less dps, there does not exist any roundshields and the newly created roundshield would have to be uber to make up a lost weapon. And i dont buy this concept about the new accurracy debuff atm.

Geothe

09-28-2010, 03:30 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote> And i dont buy this concept about the new accurracy debuff atm.</blockquote>The new debuff is no longer just accuracy, but accuracy AND base weapon damage. (no idea how much base decrease though).I dont believe any class in the game debuffs base weapon damage. DPS mod, yes, but not base weapon damage. Basically its potency debuff for raid mob autoattack. Every raid leader will want that debuff on a mob as much as possible, so Rogues will pretty much be forced to take Wis line if they want a raid slot now.

Onorem

09-28-2010, 03:32 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally dont like the idea with the shield as it does not benifit in any way. What exactly are you hoping to do with the shield that you cannot without?</blockquote>You don't see the benefit of being able to use an item with its own stats plus the option of a couple of adornments in a slot vs a completely empty slot? Hell...I'm guessing some people would accept an item with no stats, but with an "empty-offhand" property, that could only be used for adornments.<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mathematically. Looking at pure autoattack damage. Say you had 2 weapons with identical damage ratings. DWing both of them would give you the same DPS as Single Wielding 1 of them with a 50% base damage increase.</blockquote>I've been drinking this morning...but wouldn't two weapons be 200% (minus penalty) and one weapon with 50% increase be 150%? I didn't think the penalty for dual wielding was 50%

Notsovilepriest

09-28-2010, 03:34 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote> And i dont buy this concept about the new accurracy debuff atm.</blockquote>The new debuff is no longer just accuracy, but accuracy AND base weapon damage. (no idea how much base decrease though).I dont believe any class in the game debuffs base weapon damage. DPS mod, yes, but not base weapon damage. Basically its potency debuff for raid mob autoattack. Every raid leader will want that debuff on a mob as much as possible, so Rogues will pretty much be forced to take Wis line if they want a raid slot now.</blockquote>Malicious Spirits Endline for Defilers does weapon bonus by 10% also, but that is the only debuff I know of honestly.

Darkor

09-28-2010, 03:35 PM

<cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally dont like the idea with the shield as it does not benifit in any way. What exactly are you hoping to do with the shield that you cannot without?</blockquote>You don't see the benefit of being able to use an item with its own stats plus the option of a couple of adornments in a slot vs a completely empty slot? Hell...I'm guessing some people would accept an item with no stats, but with an "empty-offhand" property that could only be used for adornments.</blockquote>Maybe a good roundshield could convince me....

Dareena

09-28-2010, 03:40 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maybe a good roundshield could convince me....</blockquote>I think that's where we all stand. The Wisdom line will become the new raiding spec requirement with the revised version of Coule hitting both Accuracy and Base Weapon Damage. So with that in mind, I'd prefer to not lose my stats and adornments. If it takes me using a Round Shield to pull that off in a manner which doesn't include my weapon dps output, then that's fine with me.However that would mean that SOE would have to introduce Mark and Seal version of a scout Round Shield on the vendor. As Geothe mentioned in the most recent Round Shield thread in the item forums, it would be great to actually have x2 Round Shields introduced per vendor. Then we could get a tanking or dps shield as needed. However even just a quasi-dps shield would work for me.

Onorem

09-28-2010, 03:41 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally dont like the idea with the shield as it does not benifit in any way. What exactly are you hoping to do with the shield that you cannot without?</blockquote>You don't see the benefit of being able to use an item with its own stats plus the option of a couple of adornments in a slot vs a completely empty slot? Hell...I'm guessing some people would accept an item with no stats, but with an "empty-offhand" property that could only be used for adornments.</blockquote>Maybe a good roundshield could convince me....</blockquote>Looks like I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that you didn't like the plan with a shield...compared to the currently proposed plan that requires an empty offhand.

Darkor

09-28-2010, 03:45 PM

<cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally dont like the idea with the shield as it does not benifit in any way. What exactly are you hoping to do with the shield that you cannot without?</blockquote>You don't see the benefit of being able to use an item with its own stats plus the option of a couple of adornments in a slot vs a completely empty slot? Hell...I'm guessing some people would accept an item with no stats, but with an "empty-offhand" property that could only be used for adornments.</blockquote>Maybe a good roundshield could convince me....</blockquote>Looks like I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that you didn't like the plan with a shield...compared to the currently proposed plan that requires an empty offhand.</blockquote>Point is, if you lose a weapon, you lose the following things: normal stats, blue stats, dps from auto attacks, a proc or two and an adornment slot.In order to make up that loss there needs to be a shield with good stats, normal and blue ones and a nice proc or two. History shows that it probably wont happen.Thats why i said what i said. A Shield wouldnt change my mind unless it fullfills all what ive mentioned above. Now that the line gives whoping 51 % it wouldnt be a total net loss of dps...

Notsovilepriest

09-28-2010, 03:48 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally dont like the idea with the shield as it does not benifit in any way. What exactly are you hoping to do with the shield that you cannot without?</blockquote>You don't see the benefit of being able to use an item with its own stats plus the option of a couple of adornments in a slot vs a completely empty slot? Hell...I'm guessing some people would accept an item with no stats, but with an "empty-offhand" property that could only be used for adornments.</blockquote>Maybe a good roundshield could convince me....</blockquote>Looks like I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that you didn't like the plan with a shield...compared to the currently proposed plan that requires an empty offhand.</blockquote>Point is, if you lose a weapon, you lose the following things: normal stats, blue stats, dps from auto attacks, a proc or two and an adornment slot.In order to make up that loss there needs to be a shield with good stats, normal and blue ones and a nice proc or two. History shows that it probably wont happen.Thats why i said what i said. A Shield wouldnt change my mind unless it fullfills all what ive mentioned above. Now that the line gives whoping 51 % it wouldnt be a total net loss of dps...</blockquote>Ethernaught Roundshield of Knowledge or whatever it was called last expansion didn't fit those?

Darkor

09-28-2010, 03:50 PM

<cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally dont like the idea with the shield as it does not benifit in any way. What exactly are you hoping to do with the shield that you cannot without?</blockquote>You don't see the benefit of being able to use an item with its own stats plus the option of a couple of adornments in a slot vs a completely empty slot? Hell...I'm guessing some people would accept an item with no stats, but with an "empty-offhand" property that could only be used for adornments.</blockquote>Maybe a good roundshield could convince me....</blockquote>Looks like I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that you didn't like the plan with a shield...compared to the currently proposed plan that requires an empty offhand.</blockquote>Point is, if you lose a weapon, you lose the following things: normal stats, blue stats, dps from auto attacks, a proc or two and an adornment slot.In order to make up that loss there needs to be a shield with good stats, normal and blue ones and a nice proc or two. History shows that it probably wont happen.Thats why i said what i said. A Shield wouldnt change my mind unless it fullfills all what ive mentioned above. Now that the line gives whoping 51 % it wouldnt be a total net loss of dps...</blockquote>Ethernaught Roundshield of Knowledge or whatever it was called last expansion didn't fit those?</blockquote>No, unless you wanna tell me you know any rogues that used this shield over 2 weapons which i highly doubt. For rangers and bards this shield might have been a viable option. For rogues? not really...

Onorem

09-28-2010, 03:52 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally dont like the idea with the shield as it does not benifit in any way. What exactly are you hoping to do with the shield that you cannot without?</blockquote>You don't see the benefit of being able to use an item with its own stats plus the option of a couple of adornments in a slot vs a completely empty slot? Hell...I'm guessing some people would accept an item with no stats, but with an "empty-offhand" property that could only be used for adornments.</blockquote>Maybe a good roundshield could convince me....</blockquote>Looks like I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that you didn't like the plan with a shield...compared to the currently proposed plan that requires an empty offhand.</blockquote>Point is, if you lose a weapon, you lose the following things: normal stats, blue stats, dps from auto attacks, a proc or two and an adornment slot.In order to make up that loss there needs to be a shield with good stats, normal and blue ones and a nice proc or two. History shows that it probably wont happen.Thats why i said what i said. A Shield wouldnt change my mind unless it fullfills all what ive mentioned above. Now that the line gives whoping 51 % it wouldnt be a total net loss of dps...</blockquote>I understand completely what is lost by losing a weapon. You quoted nobody with your comment on not liking the idea with a shield . Since the only officially proposed idea is to change the line without removing the offhand penalty, I wrongly assumed that you didn't see what advantage being able to equip a shield would possible provide.

Oxie

09-28-2010, 04:00 PM

<cite>Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>even if we're forced to use T8 shields from TSO since there aren't T9 round shields (which is another moronic subject). </blockquote>Yeah, my guild would totally want to farm T8 TSO shields for our rogues...and as soon as they put nice T9 shields as drops on the SF loot tables, those will end up being the ONLY THING THAT DROP...'cause that is how things happen around here.

Nevao

09-28-2010, 04:04 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>Mathematically. Looking at pure autoattack damage. Say you had 2 weapons with identical damage ratings. DWing both of them would give you the same DPS as Single Wielding 1 of them with a 50% base damage increase... that is why Xelgad keeps setting base damage to approx 50%. That doesn't take into account the loss of stats and procs due to a completely empty equipment slot, which is where one of the major issues with this entire change centers.</blockquote>Yeah, I do undestand that part. And I completely agree with the loss of the offhand being a problem not for the Auto Attack but rather the stats. At this point I just don't see them making a change to allow both weapons to be equiped without completely redoing the line completely (which with a tentative early October GU date I don't see that happening). That's why I like the idea of allowing it to have a shield equipped. Then you have access to stats and it has a synergy (or at least not a direct conflict) with the Stamina line. But again, like most people are saying we have to have decent shields available and idealy at least one Seal Shield to allow us to move over to the line. As it looks to be now I can't imagine my Raid Leader, or for that matter my Main Tank, not wanting me to get this debuff.<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for Lunge Reversal. On live it is at 20 sec, not 30 sec reuse on the trigger. The way it works is if your target avoids your attack in some manner, you proc Lunge Reversal on them to add damage. And after that proc, you cant get another proc until the cool down expires (currently 20 sec on live, 15 sec in new changes on test). But that damage is entirely dependant upon missing attacks too, so it will only add anything where you have a bad hit rate, and at the very most 4 triggers per minute. Realistically, it will be much lower than 4 triggers per minute however.</blockquote>Thanks, that does seem less impressive now that I understand that. Who knows maybe the next push will show numbers that are a bit more impressive.

Oxie

09-28-2010, 04:09 PM

Also, I just recently picked up two new weapons to use, only to find out that I wasted DKP (and an adornment) on one of them because now it will either end up being muted, used in an appearance slot, or just tucked away into one of my bags/boxes. Plus, another scout in my guild could have made use of one of these two new weapons that I may end up having to replace for a new AA spec that forces me to use a round shield or use a 1h build.To heck with the roundshield option or only using 1 weapon, just let us use two at one time. You guys already messed the rogues to make us a little different from the other 4 scout clases by making our ranged combat arts to be throwing-based versus bow-based. (BTW: Storm of Steel for swashbucklers is useless and needs the same change that rangers got in SF with their similar ranged-attack combat art.)

Notsovilepriest

09-28-2010, 04:15 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite>Ethernaught Roundshield of Knowledge or whatever it was called last expansion didn't fit those?</blockquote>No, unless you wanna tell me you know any rogues that used this shield over 2 weapons which i highly doubt. For rangers and bards this shield might have been a viable option. For rogues? not really...</blockquote>How would an equivilent shield in this teirs stats with this lines changes not be worth it. Last expansion that shield was extremely good on stats especially for the mob it came from, had a good proc, etc. If there was a T9 version of the same, and you are basically loopholed into wis line now becaue of the debuff, It's better than getting nothing to get that debuff!

Dareena

09-28-2010, 04:31 PM

So let's continue this whole shield discussion. Just how much should these things cost if they're added to the vendors?----------Herioc (Marks)One group on the Round Shield thread (Item forum) asked for them to be available on the T1 Heroic (Legendary) vendor in Paineel. Another countered with the idea that the Herioc versions should be Fabled quality and that they would therefore be found for 220 Mark on the Moonfield vendor.Raid (Seals)The Round Shield thread mentioned that they should likely cost 100 Seals like the Sublime weapons.----------I'm not sure just how viable it would be to force people into a 220 Mark shield for Heroic play. With the play style of people having to change over night, I think that a much cheaper version on the Paineel vendor Mark would also have to be required.Proposed Solution: Add x2 Round Shields. The Paineel vendor can have a Legendary version while the Moonfield vendor can have a (Heroic) Fabled version.Then on the raid note, I do think that the 100 Seal cost sounds fair. Yet for people with lots of alts or if they're new to raiding, I can also see them not having 100 Seals laying around. Perhaps a poor man's version should be added for 25 Seals like the existing Seal jewelry?Proposed Solution: Add x2 Round Shields. Include both a 25 Seal and a 100 Seal version to the Paineel vendor.----------I know that I'm probably asking for too much. Even just a 100 Seal would probably work. However I do see some Rogues being caught with their pants down because they lacked the neccessary Seals (since they weren't following this Testing forum thread).

-=Hoss=-

09-28-2010, 04:35 PM

Could we use a symbol too? I bet there's a mage symbol with some pot/cb and a nice proc. Just have to make those proc off of melee dmg too.

Treznet

09-28-2010, 04:47 PM

<cite>Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>So let's continue this whole shield discussion. Just how much should these things cost if they're added to the vendors?----------Herioc (Marks)One group on the Round Shield thread (Item forum) asked for them to be available on the T1 Heroic (Legendary) vendor in Paineel. Another countered with the idea that the Herioc versions should be Fabled quality and that they would therefore be found for 220 Mark on the Moonfield vendor.Raid (Seals)The Round Shield thread mentioned that they should likely cost 100 Seals like the Sublime weapons.----------I'm not sure just how viable it would be to force people into a 220 Mark shield for Heroic play. With the play style of people having to change over night, I think that a much cheaper version on the Paineel vendor Mark would also have to be required.Proposed Solution: Add x2 Round Shields. The Paineel vendor can have a Legendary version while the Moonfield vendor can have a (Heroic) Fabled version.Then on the raid note, I do think that the 100 Seal cost sounds fair. Yet for people with lots of alts or if they're new to raiding, I can also see them not having 100 Seals laying around. Perhaps a poor man's version should be added for 25 Seals like the existing Seal jewelry?Proposed Solution: Add x2 Round Shields. Include both a 25 Seal and a 100 Seal version to the Paineel vendor.----------I know that I'm probably asking for too much. Even just a 100 Seal would probably work. However I do see some Rogues being caught with their pants down because they lacked the neccessary Seals (since they weren't following this Testing forum thread).</blockquote>getting way ahead of ourselves here. theres nothing even remotely hinting towards shields actually happening

Malacha

09-28-2010, 04:48 PM

<cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite><blockquote>Could we use a symbol too? I bet there's a mage symbol with some pot/cb and a nice proc. Just have to make those proc off of melee dmg too. </blockquote>Pretty sure only mages, priests, and crusaders can equip symbols (and crusaders only some of them).

Geothe

09-28-2010, 05:37 PM

<cite>Onorem wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've been drinking this morning...but wouldn't two weapons be 200% (minus penalty) and one weapon with 50% increase be 150%? I didn't think the penalty for dual wielding was 50%</blockquote>DW gives you a 33% base delay penalty. Meaning 4 sec delay weapons actually go to 5.33 second. Pretend zero haste (haste will affect both equally so non issue).That means with 1 Weapon you get you get 15 swings per minute (60 / 4). DW weapons you get 11.25 swings per minute with each individual weapon (60 / 5.333...) for a total of 22.5 total swings per minute.22.5 / 15 = 1.5So, you get 1.5 more swings per minute DWing, but if the 1H hits 1.5 harder, then base autoattack is equal between the two.Edit:Also, for you swashies.With AE auto attack there is no difference on the purely base damage aspect DW vs 1H with 50% base damage increase.... assuming all else remains equal.

Foolsfolly

09-28-2010, 07:47 PM

Why not just make the buffs force the offhand weapon to remain sheathed? That way scouts could keep the stats and procs of the offhand weapon while offhand is empty.

Nevao

09-28-2010, 08:24 PM

<cite>Foolsfolly wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why not just make the buffs force the offhand weapon to remain sheathed? That way scouts could keep the stats and procs of the offhand weapon while offhand is empty.</blockquote>There's a very good chance that this is not a simple change. It may sound easy to us, but working in software development "easy in theory" is rarely "easy in implementation". You're talking about a whole new mechanic and they may not have time or inclination to attempt. Especially just for one AA line.

Onorem

09-28-2010, 08:29 PM

<cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Foolsfolly wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why not just make the buffs force the offhand weapon to remain sheathed? That way scouts could keep the stats and procs of the offhand weapon while offhand is empty.</blockquote>There's a very good chance that this is not a simple change. It may sound easy to us, but working in software development "easy in theory" is rarely "easy in implementation". You're talking about a whole new mechanic and they may not have time or inclination to attempt. Especially just for one AA line.</blockquote>I agree that this would be difficult to implement. I currently have a (very weak) spec for situationaly using the shield line. It seems like the suggestion here is that if you've put a point into the currently worthless (but hopefully not in the future) no-offhand line, that at all times your offhand will be useless? Can't have it be situational at all...

MaxDaft

09-29-2010, 05:52 AM

Honestly after testing before the multi attack addition, I just want to be able to keep the bonuses of my offhand weapon, proc, stats, etc. If we can make that thesable, or just double the main hand's blue bonuses, proc, and stats I will fully endorse this.If not then I hope I can macro this up to swap weapons in and out...Do something for us on the loss of the stats/procs and this will be a viable line for us.

Attrikane

09-29-2010, 02:50 PM

Well....here's my solution to the upcomming WIS line changes. I'll say screw it, and continue using my tried and true AA spec, and continue to outparse T1 dps (even in lame raid groups with no dirge or mystic) on the craptastic server I'm stuck on. Problem solved......sort of.

boogeyman13

09-29-2010, 02:57 PM

How about instead of sheathed, it turns the offhand weapon into a parry blade, based off the attack rating. It would increase our parry and ability to parry from other quadrents if we have the fencing stance on, you know kind of like what a real fencer would have used, swashbuckler style and we still get the buffs. and we could togle the wisdom line into a one hand parry stance or dual wield.

Treznet

09-29-2010, 03:30 PM

<cite>boogeyman13 wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about instead of sheathed, it turns the offhand weapon into a parry blade, based off the attack rating. It would increase our parry and ability to parry from other quadrents if we have the fencing stance on, you know kind of like what a real fencer would have used, swashbuckler style and we still get the buffs. and we could togle the wisdom line into a one hand parry stance or dual wield.</blockquote>I said that awhile back too. I thought it would fit our class perfect to have the offhand just used as defensive means and just the mainhand attack. I definately dont want to be using a shield, this is what Id like to see happen. I dont even care if the defensive bonous is minor. I just mentioned it for something that would make sense with us dual wielding with the offhand not attacking. We need our offhand stats for this line to be worthwhile. Now from a dev point of view Im not sure how hard it would be to make that happen.

Davngr1

09-29-2010, 05:23 PM

well.. my brig will be spec wis for BG's with out a doubt but i do wonder if any raid forces are going to force at least one of the rogue to spec for the accuracy debuff. there has never been a debuf this powerful for raid content that i can remember.

MaxDaft

09-30-2010, 12:03 AM

Still waiting for a response from xel or to get on test to see for myself, anyone else know what is going on in this interation of changes?

Nevao

09-30-2010, 12:32 AM

Just logged into Test Copy with my wife's account (we're raiding so I can log in with my Brigand)<ul><li>Freehand Reversal gives 1% Multi-Attack per rank (10 total), it does require your secondary slot to be empty</li><li>Lunge Reversal requires secondary slot to be empty still</li><li>Coule still has 30% Accuracy reduction plus 5.0 Weapon Damage Bonus (I'm assuming this is really .05 not 500, but I need to test). Position requirement is still in place, but there is no offhand requirement.</li></ul>

Geothe

09-30-2010, 12:35 AM

Currently on Test:Coule: decrease accuracy by 30% and Weapon Damage bonus by 5%2523-3669 damage.60 sec recast, 20 sec duration. Must be frontal or Flanking.Deft Disarm (with 4 points):Decrease STR by 84.7 (92.4 with 5 points).10 Points in Freehand reversal gives 10 Multi Attack and 51 Weapon Damage Bonus.10 Points in Lunge Reversal and it procs at 1419-2365 base, (sitting around 1500 Agi and 70% potency)

MaxDaft

09-30-2010, 02:52 AM

So is this going to be yet another instance of the people we pay to play this game do not listen to us?Do something reasonable for the offhand weapon proc/stats loss and make this a win. If this goes live as is you have wasted time, money, and effort on all the rouges part that has tried to help test this and give feedback.WE NEED TO KEEP OUR OFFHAND STATS, BONUSES AND PROCS!Can you guys just for once pull through on a player request? JUST ONCE.

Sarka

09-30-2010, 05:27 AM

You know the ironic thing ?With this changes Swashis now are a kind of Ranger ........... we make more dmg with our range weapon as with two melee weapons ........... (and enough time to make many styles between the autoattack)funny ....... isn't it ?

Toxicz

09-30-2010, 06:57 AM

Still not worth putting 24 points into it...

Geothe

09-30-2010, 10:27 AM

Okay, feedback on the current changes:Deft Disarm: As is this is just a duplication of a current brigand CA and the Str debuff will only have an impact on fighter type mobs (due to the Stat change that came out with SF). Change it from debuffing just Str, to debuffing Str/Wis/Int/Agi. Then it will impact all mob archaetypes.Freehand Reversal: As stated since this thread began, empty equipment slot requirement is f-ing stupid. Either greatly reduce the bonuses and allow for an offhand weapon, or allow for shields to be equiped with the line (and have KANDER add a few round shields to Mark and Seal merchants).Lunge Reversal: Wont really add anything DPS wise, since it is entirely based on the requirement of having your attacks miss in the first place, it will be very sporatic. Just change it to a regular proc at like base 3.0 times a minute or something along those lines. Oh yeah. EMPTY EQUIPMENT SLOT REQUIREMENT IS MORONIC.Coule: Remove the positional requirement. And a 5% Weapon Damage bonus for 20 sec out of every minute seems, I dont know, a bit low. 10% or something please.Summary: A few minor tweeks and remove the empty equipment slot requirement.Oh, btw. REMOVE THE EMPTY EQUIPMENT SLOT REQUIREMENT.

-=Hoss=-

09-30-2010, 10:44 AM

<cite>Sarka wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know the ironic thing ?With this changes Swashis now are a kind of Ranger ........... we make more dmg with our range weapon as with two melee weapons ........... (and enough time to make many styles between the autoattack)funny ....... isn't it ?</blockquote>You mean, the 51% weapon dmg bonus applies to ranged weapons?

Dareena

09-30-2010, 11:20 AM

<cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sarka wrote:</cite><blockquote>With this changes Swashis now are a kind of Ranger ........... we make more dmg with our range weapon as with two melee weapons ........... (and enough time to make many styles between the autoattack)</blockquote>You mean, the 51% weapon dmg bonus applies to ranged weapons?</blockquote>Ha ha. That actually makes perfect sense. Since we no longer have Ranged Only stats, it does mean that the 1-hander damage bonuses would apply to our ranged stuff. Hmm... Not that we have much to work with in the area, but it is a nice perk.

Nidy

09-30-2010, 11:39 AM

Change Deft Disarm to all stats not just strength.Freehand reversal: Add 10% crit as well as the multi attack. This would make up for the stats lost on off hand weapon.Lunge Reversal : change this to a straight proc. Might have to lower the damage so not to overpower it. possibly make it the same as toxic temptest II?Coule: How about leaving ability as you have it but add the removed amounts to our group for the 20 second duration? THis would a usefull debuff but also a nice buff for our group. Double usefull.I know people are complaining about the off hand but this is a fencing line which means off hand empty. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" />Nidy90 BrigandOne more thing. If you really want to confuse us rogues. Change traumatic swipe debuff into something that is usefull again and we will have to choose! I suggest a potency debuff and crit bonus debuff with the same type of group enhancer attached for the duration. 20 second debuff that adds the amount to our group for the duration. Just a suggestion.

Treznet

09-30-2010, 12:29 PM

<cite>Nidy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Change Deft Disarm to all stats not just strength.Freehand reversal: Add 10% crit as well as the multi attack. This would make up for the stats lost on off hand weapon.Lunge Reversal : change this to a straight proc. Might have to lower the damage so not to overpower it. possibly make it the same as toxic temptest II?Coule: How about leaving ability as you have it but add the removed amounts to our group for the 20 second duration? THis would a usefull debuff but also a nice buff for our group. Double usefull.I know people are complaining about the off hand but this is a fencing line which means off hand empty. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" />Nidy90 BrigandOne more thing. If you really want to confuse us rogues. Change traumatic swipe debuff into something that is usefull again and we will have to choose! I suggest a potency debuff and crit bonus debuff with the same type of group enhancer attached for the duration. 20 second debuff that adds the amount to our group for the duration. Just a suggestion.</blockquote>So we should have to take a garbage line because its named fencing? maybe wizards should of had to have free hand sorcery then, names still the same but it doesnt take an empty slot. The melee dps is there but there is nothing to make up for our lost stats. This is with the gear that is currently in game. So we are supposed to believe in the next expansions that whoever is developing weapons is going to know that rogues have a line that only uses 1 weapon? My guess is there will be procs and stats on weapons that will make this line useless when velious goes live. I can tell you right now that with melee dps being pretty much equal between dual wield and wis line Im not switching over.Im not asking for anything else than what on test ,besides an even equipment option as all other scouts. rogues having a line that has a requirement that no other class has does not make them unique, it puts us at a handicap.

Sarka

09-30-2010, 01:26 PM

<cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sarka wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know the ironic thing ?With this changes Swashis now are a kind of Ranger ........... we make more dmg with our range weapon as with two melee weapons ........... (and enough time to make many styles between the autoattack)funny ....... isn't it ?</blockquote>You mean, the 51% weapon dmg bonus applies to ranged weapons?</blockquote>Yupp, at test it applies to ranged weapons

Xalmat

09-30-2010, 01:34 PM

Honestly the only debuff more powerful than Coule right now is the Necromancer Ooze pet.

Aule

09-30-2010, 01:48 PM

<cite>Sarka wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sarka wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know the ironic thing ?With this changes Swashis now are a kind of Ranger ........... we make more dmg with our range weapon as with two melee weapons ........... (and enough time to make many styles between the autoattack)funny ....... isn't it ?</blockquote>You mean, the 51% weapon dmg bonus applies to ranged weapons?</blockquote>Yupp, at test it applies to ranged weapons</blockquote>Crusader's Knight's Stance applies to ranged weapons (but only while a shield is equipped), and it's been that way since the AA was introduced.

Phillip2005

09-30-2010, 02:18 PM

lol...really? hey brigands there is already a class int he game that has all the stuff yur wanting, its called an ASSASSIN...go make one.

Nevao

09-30-2010, 02:22 PM

<cite>Baelyn@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>lol...really? hey brigands there is already a class int he game that has all the stuff yur wanting, its called an ASSASSIN...go make one.</blockquote><img src="http://gatsome.com/images/obvioustroll.jpg" width="702" height="475" />

Davngr1

09-30-2010, 02:25 PM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote>Honestly the only debuff more powerful than Coule right now is the Necromancer Ooze pet.</blockquote> no it's not.coule(30% accuracy and 5% bonus) is way better then:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.EQ2Flames.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2281"><img src="http://www.EQ2Flames.com/imagehosting/571247bcbe2f0193e.jpg" /></a>also the wis line at least attempts to replace some of the damage lost. the ooze pet AA is a total loss for the necromancer.

Darkor

09-30-2010, 02:49 PM

Can all the non-rogues please stay out of this discussion? If you think this new debuff is so powerfull, why dont you play a brigand now?The wis line is still useless, end of story. Im adone arguing about it and im done giving feedback. Appearently Xelgad does not want any feedback otherwise he would understand that if he wants to place a off hand weapon restriction on us he would actually make it worth it. For those hardliners that just do not want to understand it. Taking wis line and giving up dual wielding is a pure net loss. So who of you all would actually waste 24 AA points to be WEAKER than before? Who seriously? It makes no sense, what is so hard to understand about it? So theres a nice debuff attached to the line? Great, go play a brigand now and spec it because you sure arent gonna get it from me and several other rogues out there. We arent stupid and we sure arent gonna sit silence here when dev time is wasted on crap like this.

Xalmat

09-30-2010, 02:56 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.EQ2Flames.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2281"><img src="http://www.EQ2Flames.com/imagehosting/571247bcbe2f0193e.jpg" /></a></blockquote>Reduces Double Attack Chance by 25% alone is pretty huge. Throw in Reduce spell/CA damage by 5%, reduce DPS/Attack speed by 10%, reduce crush/slash/pierce, reduce AoE attack chance (huge for anyone thinking of standing in front of the mob for any reason), and reduce Riposte damage (which is important for non-guardians) and you're looking at a pretty significant damage reduction.Granted I agree, the ooze pet basically means the Necro loses 1/3 of his damage output, and the ooze pet has poor survivability. But if you want to look at it from a debuff perspective it's one of the most powerful offensive debuffs in the game.

Xelgad

09-30-2010, 03:08 PM

<div><div><div>Okay, take three!</div> <div> </div> <div>We've removed the empty slot requirment completely, and we're now looking at this line similarly to the Traumatic Swipe line. It should focus on debuffs while also providing a small DPS boost. </div> <div> </div> <ul><li>Deft Disarm now debuffs WIS in addition to STR. Even if the target is a mage or scout, you can at least use this debuff to slightly lower the target's magical resists. With just those two stats, this is still a compelling option relative to the first slot in the other lines in this tree.</li><li>Lunge Reversal is in the second slot of this line.</li><li>The third slot is 1.4% Multi-Attack per point. That's 14% with 10 points.</li><li>Coule remains unchanged. The positional requirement is a factor in balancing this ability, so removing that requirement would mean the ability would need to have a weaker effect. </li><li>Traumatic Swipe now debuffs 5% potency in addition to reuse speed. The potency portion of the debuff will take effect even against AEs that are uneffected by the reuse portion.</li></ul> <div> </div> <div>Let us know how you guys feel this line will stack up against the Traumatic Swipe line (considering the buff to Swipe).</div></div></div>

-=Hoss=-

09-30-2010, 03:09 PM

<cite>Sarka wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sarka wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know the ironic thing ?With this changes Swashis now are a kind of Ranger ........... we make more dmg with our range weapon as with two melee weapons ........... (and enough time to make many styles between the autoattack)funny ....... isn't it ?</blockquote>You mean, the 51% weapon dmg bonus applies to ranged weapons?</blockquote>Yupp, at test it applies to ranged weapons</blockquote>Too bad there are no good throwing weapons. Course, I guess we could use a bow anyway and just not use our 1 ranged CA.

Gungo

09-30-2010, 03:13 PM

Dareena

09-30-2010, 03:25 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><div>Okay, take three!</div><div> </div><div>We've removed the empty slot requirment completely, and we're now looking at this line similarly to the Traumatic Swipe line. It should focus on debuffs while also providing a small DPS boost. </div><div> </div><ul><li>Deft Disarm now debuffs WIS in addition to STR. Even if the target is a mage or scout, you can at least use this debuff to slightly lower the target's magical resists. With just those two stats, this is still a compelling option relative to the first slot in the other lines in this tree.</li><li>Lunge Reversal is in the second slot of this line.</li><li>The third slot is 1.4% Multi-Attack per point. That's 14% with 10 points.</li><li>Coule remains unchanged. The positional requirement is a factor in balancing this ability, so removing that requirement would mean the ability would need to have a weaker effect. </li><li>Traumatic Swipe now debuffs 5% potency in addition to reuse speed. The potency portion of the debuff will take effect even against AEs that are uneffected by the reuse portion.</li></ul><div> </div><div>Let us know how you guys feel this line will stack up against the Traumatic Swipe line (considering the buff to Swipe).</div></div></div></blockquote>If all raid mobs could actually be affected by the Reuse penalty of Traumatic Swipe, then I'd really consider the two a toss up. But with T9 being what it is, I'm personally consider the Wisdom end line debuff to be far strong than the Strength debuff. Now I still consider Strength to be the better choice for old school raiding and for PvP. However that has nothing to do with T9 raiding.Now is this divide acceptable? Keep Strength as a focus for PvP debuffing (and old content) while Wisdom is for T9 debuffing? To be honest, I've got mixed feeling on the matter. As things currently stand, I've already altered my solo spec to include my PvP spec and made sure to grab to grab the Traumatic Swipe end line. But for my heroic and raid spec, I'll be dumping the Strength line the moment that GU58 goes live and replacing it with the Wisdom line. In my mind, there's no question or hesitation about the matter.

Malacha

09-30-2010, 03:38 PM

<cite>Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now is this divide acceptable? Keep Strength as a focus for PvP debuffing (and old content) while Wisdom is for T9 debuffing? To be honest, I've got mixed feeling on the matter. As things currently stand, I've already altered my solo spec to include my PvP spec and made sure to grab to grab the Traumatic Swipe end line. But for my heroic and raid spec, I'll be dumping the Strength line the moment that GU58 goes live and replacing it with the Wisdom line. In my mind, there's no question or hesitation about the matter.</blockquote>I also will be dropping str to pick up wis line. BUT, the 5% potency debuff isn't horrible... Of course 5% of 200% (or whatever it is mobs are set to now) isn't much. I agree, if TS actually worked on T9 mobs, it would make it a less bitter pill to swallow to have to take the str line to pick it up.

Wilin

09-30-2010, 03:48 PM

I like it.

Darkor

09-30-2010, 03:52 PM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><div>Okay, take three!</div> <div> </div> <div>We've removed the empty slot requirment completely, and we're now looking at this line similarly to the Traumatic Swipe line. It should focus on debuffs while also providing a small DPS boost. </div> <div> </div> <ul><li>Deft Disarm now debuffs WIS in addition to STR. Even if the target is a mage or scout, you can at least use this debuff to slightly lower the target's magical resists. With just those two stats, this is still a compelling option relative to the first slot in the other lines in this tree.</li><li>Lunge Reversal is in the second slot of this line.</li><li>The third slot is 1.4% Multi-Attack per point. That's 14% with 10 points.</li><li>Coule remains unchanged. The positional requirement is a factor in balancing this ability, so removing that requirement would mean the ability would need to have a weaker effect. </li><li>Traumatic Swipe now debuffs 5% potency in addition to reuse speed. The potency portion of the debuff will take effect even against AEs that are uneffected by the reuse portion.</li></ul> <div> </div> <div>Let us know how you guys feel this line will stack up against the Traumatic Swipe line (considering the buff to Swipe).</div></div></div></blockquote>The removal of the weapon restriction line was a must. When velious comes out you'll have pretty neat weapons to select but you wouldnt be able to and that would not be good. As for the rest, yeah thats okay, especially with the future change to multi attack i guess. I dunno about all that discussion about traumatic swipe and coule since you can spec both along with agi endline.

Dareena

09-30-2010, 04:03 PM

<cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dunno about all that discussion about traumatic swipe and coule since you can spec both along with agi endline.</blockquote>Yes, we could theoretically have both of those. But realistic? Not really. For example, my solo / PvP spec now has x3 end lines. Those are Strength, Agility, and Intelligence. Under that spec build, I can't spare any point for the +% Max Health under Stamina and I find that I can only justify 6 (of <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> points in the +Accuracy buff (based on my WtP needs). It's been a painful choice to blend my BG and soloing specs together, but I find that the new hybrid is still working out fine.However my current heroic / raid spec only has x2 end lines. Those are Strength and Agility. Then I use Stamina for the +10% Max Health. Even if both lines are altered under Xelgad's current proposal, there is no way that I can justify the health loss in order to keep the Strength line. I'll end up keeping my exact spec which I current have, with the exception of flipping Strength for Wisdom.Now how many people are in my situation and have my point of view? Well that's subjective. But in T9 raid play, I can see little justification for wasting so many AA into Strength for just a measly -5% Potency.

Gungo

09-30-2010, 04:11 PM

<cite>Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ajjantis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dunno about all that discussion about traumatic swipe and coule since you can spec both along with agi endline.</blockquote>Yes, we could theoretically have both of those. But realistic? Not really. For example, my solo / PvP spec now has x3 end lines. Those are Strength, Agility, and Intelligence. Under that spec build, I can't spare any point for the +% Max Health under Stamina and I find that I can only justify 6 (of <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> points in the +Accuracy buff (based on my WtP needs). It's been a painful choice to blend my BG and soloing specs together, but I find that the new hybrid is still working out fine.However my current heroic / raid spec only has x2 end lines. Those are Strength and Agility. Then I use Stamina for the +10% Max Health. Even if both lines are altered under Xelgad's current proposal, there is no way that I can justify the health loss in order to keep the Strength line. I'll end up keeping my exact spec which I current have, with the exception of flipping Strength for Wisdom.Now how many people are in my situation and have my point of view? Well that's subjective. But in T9 raid play, I can see little justification for wasting so many AA into Strength for just a measly -5% Potency.</blockquote>That to me sounds balanced when people have a hard time decided which of the abilities to use.

Toxicz

09-30-2010, 04:18 PM

Oxie

09-30-2010, 04:40 PM

<cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sarka wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sarka wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know the ironic thing ?With this changes Swashis now are a kind of Ranger ........... we make more dmg with our range weapon as with two melee weapons ........... (and enough time to make many styles between the autoattack)funny ....... isn't it ?</blockquote>You mean, the 51% weapon dmg bonus applies to ranged weapons?</blockquote>Yupp, at test it applies to ranged weapons</blockquote>Too bad there are no good throwing weapons. Course, I guess we could use a bow anyway and just not use our 1 ranged CA.</blockquote>Swashbucklers technically have 2 throwing-based ranged combat arts...only one is such PURE CRAP (Storm of Steel) that it's not even worth putting on the toolbar or even getting it upgraded.

Gungo

09-30-2010, 04:41 PM

<cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sarka wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-=Hoss=- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sarka wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know the ironic thing ?With this changes Swashis now are a kind of Ranger ........... we make more dmg with our range weapon as with two melee weapons ........... (and enough time to make many styles between the autoattack)funny ....... isn't it ?</blockquote>You mean, the 51% weapon dmg bonus applies to ranged weapons?</blockquote>Yupp, at test it applies to ranged weapons</blockquote>Too bad there are no good throwing weapons. Course, I guess we could use a bow anyway and just not use our 1 ranged CA.</blockquote>Swashbucklers technically have 2 throwing-based ranged combat arts...only one is such PURE CRAP (Storm of Steel) that it's not even worth putting on the toolbar or even getting it upgraded.</blockquote>it just needs the aoe treatment rangers got with thier version.

Malacha

09-30-2010, 04:44 PM

<cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><div>Okay, take three!</div> <div> </div> <div>We've removed the empty slot requirment completely, and we're now looking at this line similarly to the Traumatic Swipe line. It should focus on debuffs while also providing a small DPS boost. </div> <div> </div> <ul><li>Deft Disarm now debuffs WIS in addition to STR. Even if the target is a mage or scout, you can at least use this debuff to slightly lower the target's magical resists. With just those two stats, this is still a compelling option relative to the first slot in the other lines in this tree.</li><li>Lunge Reversal is in the second slot of this line.</li><li>The third slot is 1.4% Multi-Attack per point. That's 14% with 10 points.</li><li>Coule remains unchanged. The positional requirement is a factor in balancing this ability, so removing that requirement would mean the ability would need to have a weaker effect. </li><li>Traumatic Swipe now debuffs 5% potency in addition to reuse speed. The potency portion of the debuff will take effect even against AEs that are uneffected by the reuse portion.</li></ul> <div> </div> <div>Let us know how you guys feel this line will stack up against the Traumatic Swipe line (considering the buff to Swipe).</div></div></div></blockquote>This is the kind of stuff we need here, making people think about which spec would be best.... Great update, thanks!Edit: Is the weapon bonus still going to be in the third slot?</blockquote>No, with being able to use both weapons, there's no reason to increase the weapon bonus anymore.

Toxicz

09-30-2010, 04:47 PM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><div>Okay, take three!</div> <div> </div> <div>We've removed the empty slot requirment completely, and we're now looking at this line similarly to the Traumatic Swipe line. It should focus on debuffs while also providing a small DPS boost. </div> <div> </div> <ul><li>Deft Disarm now debuffs WIS in addition to STR. Even if the target is a mage or scout, you can at least use this debuff to slightly lower the target's magical resists. With just those two stats, this is still a compelling option relative to the first slot in the other lines in this tree.</li><li>Lunge Reversal is in the second slot of this line.</li><li>The third slot is 1.4% Multi-Attack per point. That's 14% with 10 points.</li><li>Coule remains unchanged. The positional requirement is a factor in balancing this ability, so removing that requirement would mean the ability would need to have a weaker effect. </li><li>Traumatic Swipe now debuffs 5% potency in addition to reuse speed. The potency portion of the debuff will take effect even against AEs that are uneffected by the reuse portion.</li></ul> <div> </div> <div>Let us know how you guys feel this line will stack up against the Traumatic Swipe line (considering the buff to Swipe).</div></div></div></blockquote>This is the kind of stuff we need here, making people think about which spec would be best.... Great update, thanks!Edit: Is the weapon bonus still going to be in the third slot?</blockquote>No, with being able to use both weapons, there's no reason to increase the weapon bonus anymore.</blockquote>Hmm I don't see why it shouldn't still be there, I mean maybe not 50% but there should be atleast something there still.

Davngr1

09-30-2010, 05:33 PM

<cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><div>Okay, take three!</div> <div> </div> <div>We've removed the empty slot requirment completely, and we're now looking at this line similarly to the Traumatic Swipe line. It should focus on debuffs while also providing a small DPS boost. </div> <div> </div> <ul><li>Deft Disarm now debuffs WIS in addition to STR. Even if the target is a mage or scout, you can at least use this debuff to slightly lower the target's magical resists. With just those two stats, this is still a compelling option relative to the first slot in the other lines in this tree.</li><li>Lunge Reversal is in the second slot of this line.</li><li>The third slot is 1.4% Multi-Attack per point. That's 14% with 10 points.</li><li>Coule remains unchanged. The positional requirement is a factor in balancing this ability, so removing that requirement would mean the ability would need to have a weaker effect. </li><li>Traumatic Swipe now debuffs 5% potency in addition to reuse speed. The potency portion of the debuff will take effect even against AEs that are uneffected by the reuse portion.</li></ul> <div> </div> <div>Let us know how you guys feel this line will stack up against the Traumatic Swipe line (considering the buff to Swipe).</div></div></div></blockquote>This is the kind of stuff we need here, making people think about which spec would be best.... Great update, thanks!Edit: Is the weapon bonus still going to be in the third slot?</blockquote>No, with being able to use both weapons, there's no reason to increase the weapon bonus anymore.</blockquote>Hmm I don't see why it shouldn't still be there, I mean maybe not 50% but there should be atleast something there still.</blockquote> before depending on the encounter and quality of weaps there might or might not have been a loss of dps. now there is absolutely no chance of any kind of dps loss and you're still getting the best debuff in game. are you really complaining? lol seriously i can finnaly have a third line to spend points on with my brig. until now the extra aa had been used on agi.

Aral

09-30-2010, 06:00 PM

Concern about Coule: Will accuracy debuff make any significant difference on raid mobs? x4 Raid bosses almost never "miss," even on guardians with very high levels of defense. Block, uncontested parry and riposte, secondary avoids from Clerics and other fighters all work - but misses are usually completely absent or less than 1% of total avoids. So question is: will accuracy debuff of Coule shift the contested portion of the x4 raid boss attack vs. player avoidance to where the tank will actually see a significant number of misses? Or are we talking about the 0-3 misses in a current 5 minute fight turning into 2-5 misses? I have a sneaky suspicion this debuff will look good on paper but in practice do almost nothing ... much like another endline in the Rogue tree <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Unless Coule consistently adds 2% or more to avoided swings on the tank, it's not going to do what it's intended to do. A reduction to mob strikethrough or double attack would likely be much more effective in practice. Remember, +accuracy buffs only affect the miss chance.From combat mechanics thread: Accuracy: Accuracy increases your chance to hit the target when you normally would have missed. It does not help you against parries, blocks or ripostes.REQUEST: Could someone with Coule spec run this test on existing log from test or next raid please?To test...1. Fight raid boss. RT would be ideal, but even the Prime Trajin in x2 would be sufficient - any raid name that double attacks rapidly.2. Debuff consistently with Coule3. Use avoidance report in ACT to break down where the avoidance is coming from. To see the avoidance report, right click the tank's name in the raid encounter, select "avoidance report" near bottom, then observe the middle column of report looking for count and % of total avoids for "miss." Example of live avoidance report on RT (3). Name did not "miss" once during the fight. Tank was Guardian, OT was my sk alt on heroic adds. Date was 9/26blocks (171 / 403) 42.43% (171 / 71<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 23.82% 1,246,065 2090.71 dodges (15 / 403) 3.72% (15 / 71<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 2.09% 109,304 183.40 No Damage (Stoneskin) (69 / 403) 17.12% (69 / 71<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 9.61% 502,799 843.62 parries (23 / 403) 5.71% (23 / 71<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 3.20% 167,599 281.21 (cleric) blocks (35 / 403) 8.68% (35 / 71<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 4.87% 255,043 427.92 YOU block (70 / 403) 17.37% (70 / 71<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 9.75% 510,086 855.85 YOU parry (7 / 403) 1.74% (7 / 71<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 0.97% 51,009 85.58 YOU riposte (13 / 403) 3.23% (13 / 71<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1.81% 94,730 158.94 TOTAL - - (403 / 71<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 56.13% 2,936,633 4927.24

Oxie

09-30-2010, 06:14 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ruckus@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Swashbucklers technically have 2 throwing-based ranged combat arts...only one is such PURE CRAP (Storm of Steel) that it's not even worth putting on the toolbar or even getting it upgraded.</blockquote>it just needs the aoe treatment rangers got with their version.</blockquote>That's what I have /feedbacked and posted several times already in the past since SF went live. When I heard that rangers had a similar combat art (that was equally as useless as the ones swashbucklers have) and it was getting changed in time for SF's launch...I was like "fix Storm of Steel, too!!"

Davngr1

09-30-2010, 06:29 PM

<cite>Aralys wrote:</cite><blockquote>Concern about Coule: Will accuracy debuff make any significant difference on raid mobs? x4 Raid bosses almost never "miss," even on guardians with very high levels of defense. Block, uncontested parry and riposte, secondary avoids from Clerics and other fighters all work - but misses are usually completely absent or less than 1% of total avoids. So question is: will accuracy debuff of Coule shift the contested portion of the x4 raid boss attack vs. player avoidance to where the tank will actually see a significant number of misses? Or are we talking about the 0-3 misses in a current 5 minute fight turning into 2-5 misses? I have a sneaky suspicion this debuff will look good on paper but in practice do almost nothing ... much like another endline in the Rogue tree <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /> Unless Coule consistently adds 2% or more to avoided swings on the tank, it's not going to do what it's intended to do. A reduction to mob strikethrough or double attack would likely be much more effective in practice. Remember, +accuracy buffs only affect the miss chance.From combat mechanics thread: Accuracy: Accuracy increases your chance to hit the target when you normally would have missed. It does not help you against parries, blocks or ripostes.REQUEST: Could someone with Coule spec run this test on existing log from test or next raid please?To test...1. Fight raid boss. RT would be ideal, but even the Prime Trajin in x2 would be sufficient - any raid name that double attacks rapidly.2. Debuff consistently with Coule3. Use avoidance report in ACT to break down where the avoidance is coming from. To see the avoidance report, right click the tank's name in the raid encounter, select "avoidance report" near bottom, then observe the middle column of report looking for count and % of total avoids for "miss." Example of live avoidance report on RT (3). Name did not "miss" once during the fight. Tank was Guardian, OT was my sk alt on heroic adds. Date was 9/26blocks (171 / 403) 42.43% (171 / 71<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> 23.82% 1,246,065 2090.71 dodges (15 / 403) 3.72% (15 / 71<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> 2.09% 109,304 183.40 No Damage (Stoneskin) (69 / 403) 17.12% (69 / 71<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> 9.61% 502,799 843.62 parries (23 / 403) 5.71% (23 / 71<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> 3.20% 167,599 281.21 (cleric) blocks (35 / 403) 8.68% (35 / 71<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> 4.87% 255,043 427.92 YOU block (70 / 403) 17.37% (70 / 71<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> 9.75% 510,086 855.85 YOU parry (7 / 403) 1.74% (7 / 71<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> 0.97% 51,009 85.58 YOU riposte (13 / 403) 3.23% (13 / 71<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> 1.81% 94,730 158.94 TOTAL - - (403 / 71<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" /> 56.13% 2,936,633 4927.24 </blockquote> yea it needs to be tested to be sure but at least it won't be hard to decipher. any misses and any parry beyon that of food/gear values is from coule. 30% accuracy and 5% bonus debuf should end up being substantial since most the damage on raid mobs is auto attack.

Toxicz

09-30-2010, 07:25 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><div>Okay, take three!</div> <div> </div> <div>We've removed the empty slot requirment completely, and we're now looking at this line similarly to the Traumatic Swipe line. It should focus on debuffs while also providing a small DPS boost. </div> <div> </div> <ul><li>Deft Disarm now debuffs WIS in addition to STR. Even if the target is a mage or scout, you can at least use this debuff to slightly lower the target's magical resists. With just those two stats, this is still a compelling option relative to the first slot in the other lines in this tree.</li><li>Lunge Reversal is in the second slot of this line.</li><li>The third slot is 1.4% Multi-Attack per point. That's 14% with 10 points.</li><li>Coule remains unchanged. The positional requirement is a factor in balancing this ability, so removing that requirement would mean the ability would need to have a weaker effect. </li><li>Traumatic Swipe now debuffs 5% potency in addition to reuse speed. The potency portion of the debuff will take effect even against AEs that are uneffected by the reuse portion.</li></ul> <div> </div> <div>Let us know how you guys feel this line will stack up against the Traumatic Swipe line (considering the buff to Swipe).</div></div></div></blockquote>This is the kind of stuff we need here, making people think about which spec would be best.... Great update, thanks!Edit: Is the weapon bonus still going to be in the third slot?</blockquote>No, with being able to use both weapons, there's no reason to increase the weapon bonus anymore.</blockquote>Hmm I don't see why it shouldn't still be there, I mean maybe not 50% but there should be atleast something there still.</blockquote> before depending on the encounter and quality of weaps there might or might not have been a loss of dps. now there is absolutely no chance of any kind of dps loss and you're still getting the best debuff in game. are you really complaining? lol seriously i can finnaly have a third line to spend points on with my brig. until now the extra aa had been used on agi.</blockquote>No one knows if the acc reducer/weapon damage reducer will even work. Now that there changing traumatic swipe to reduce AE damage its better as of right now, at least until Coule gets tested. I guess I just want more dps, I don't see a problem in adding 10-20 weapon bonus to the 3 slot in the line.And if your not speccing down str/agil/4-10 stam your doing it wrong. sorry

Malacha

09-30-2010, 07:36 PM

<cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>No one knows if the acc reducer/weapon damage reducer will even work. Now that there changing traumatic swipe to reduce AE damage its better as of right now, at least until Coule gets tested. I guess I just want more dps, I don't see a problem in adding 10-20 weapon bonus to the 3 slot in the line.And if your not speccing down str/agil/4-10 stam your doing it wrong. sorry</blockquote>Because its not necessary. Yes Brigs could use a boost on their dps, especially single target as we are losing ground to swashbucklers every day. But the answer isn't going to be in a shared AA line. It needs to come in fixes to the Brigand tree, or SF/end line TSO abilities.

Davngr1

09-30-2010, 07:59 PM

<cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><div>Okay, take three!</div> <div> </div> <div>We've removed the empty slot requirment completely, and we're now looking at this line similarly to the Traumatic Swipe line. It should focus on debuffs while also providing a small DPS boost. </div> <div> </div> <ul><li>Deft Disarm now debuffs WIS in addition to STR. Even if the target is a mage or scout, you can at least use this debuff to slightly lower the target's magical resists. With just those two stats, this is still a compelling option relative to the first slot in the other lines in this tree.</li><li>Lunge Reversal is in the second slot of this line.</li><li>The third slot is 1.4% Multi-Attack per point. That's 14% with 10 points.</li><li>Coule remains unchanged. The positional requirement is a factor in balancing this ability, so removing that requirement would mean the ability would need to have a weaker effect. </li><li>Traumatic Swipe now debuffs 5% potency in addition to reuse speed. The potency portion of the debuff will take effect even against AEs that are uneffected by the reuse portion.</li></ul> <div> </div> <div>Let us know how you guys feel this line will stack up against the Traumatic Swipe line (considering the buff to Swipe).</div></div></div></blockquote>This is the kind of stuff we need here, making people think about which spec would be best.... Great update, thanks!Edit: Is the weapon bonus still going to be in the third slot?</blockquote>No, with being able to use both weapons, there's no reason to increase the weapon bonus anymore.</blockquote>Hmm I don't see why it shouldn't still be there, I mean maybe not 50% but there should be atleast something there still.</blockquote> before depending on the encounter and quality of weaps there might or might not have been a loss of dps. now there is absolutely no chance of any kind of dps loss and you're still getting the best debuff in game. are you really complaining? lol seriously i can finnaly have a third line to spend points on with my brig. until now the extra aa had been used on agi.</blockquote>No one knows if the acc reducer/weapon damage reducer will even work. Now that there changing traumatic swipe to reduce AE damage its better as of right now, at least until Coule gets tested. I guess I just want more dps, I don't see a problem in adding 10-20 weapon bonus to the 3 slot in the line.And if your not speccing down str/agil/4-10 stam your doing it wrong. sorry</blockquote> how am i doing it wrong? i dont raid my brig and with his aoe avoid proc i hardley take aoe damage when doing pick ups.. guess im lucky? the wis line is the way to go. 30% accuracy debuff and 5% weapon bonus will work.. the question is how well. either way any brig or swash not going down this line now is an idiot.

Toxicz

09-30-2010, 08:00 PM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>No one knows if the acc reducer/weapon damage reducer will even work. Now that there changing traumatic swipe to reduce AE damage its better as of right now, at least until Coule gets tested. I guess I just want more dps, I don't see a problem in adding 10-20 weapon bonus to the 3 slot in the line.And if your not speccing down str/agil/4-10 stam your doing it wrong. sorry</blockquote>Because its not necessary. Yes Brigs could use a boost on their dps, especially single target as we are losing ground to swashbucklers every day. But the answer isn't going to be in a shared AA line. It needs to come in fixes to the Brigand tree, or SF/end line TSO abilities.</blockquote>I'll be honest I don't see many swashy parses that are as good as mine, hell even on the ZW's there isn't a huge difference in the numbers. There are execptions of course on some names/ZW's, but its not that big of a difference. Maybe I just want to be able to parse like Assassin's, they pretty much have everything they could want......

Toxicz

09-30-2010, 08:05 PM

<cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><div>Okay, take three!</div> <div> </div> <div>We've removed the empty slot requirment completely, and we're now looking at this line similarly to the Traumatic Swipe line. It should focus on debuffs while also providing a small DPS boost. </div> <div> </div> <ul><li>Deft Disarm now debuffs WIS in addition to STR. Even if the target is a mage or scout, you can at least use this debuff to slightly lower the target's magical resists. With just those two stats, this is still a compelling option relative to the first slot in the other lines in this tree.</li><li>Lunge Reversal is in the second slot of this line.</li><li>The third slot is 1.4% Multi-Attack per point. That's 14% with 10 points.</li><li>Coule remains unchanged. The positional requirement is a factor in balancing this ability, so removing that requirement would mean the ability would need to have a weaker effect. </li><li>Traumatic Swipe now debuffs 5% potency in addition to reuse speed. The potency portion of the debuff will take effect even against AEs that are uneffected by the reuse portion.</li></ul> <div> </div> <div>Let us know how you guys feel this line will stack up against the Traumatic Swipe line (considering the buff to Swipe).</div></div></div></blockquote>This is the kind of stuff we need here, making people think about which spec would be best.... Great update, thanks!Edit: Is the weapon bonus still going to be in the third slot?</blockquote>No, with being able to use both weapons, there's no reason to increase the weapon bonus anymore.</blockquote>Hmm I don't see why it shouldn't still be there, I mean maybe not 50% but there should be atleast something there still.</blockquote> before depending on the encounter and quality of weaps there might or might not have been a loss of dps. now there is absolutely no chance of any kind of dps loss and you're still getting the best debuff in game. are you really complaining? lol seriously i can finnaly have a third line to spend points on with my brig. until now the extra aa had been used on agi.</blockquote>No one knows if the acc reducer/weapon damage reducer will even work. Now that there changing traumatic swipe to reduce AE damage its better as of right now, at least until Coule gets tested. I guess I just want more dps, I don't see a problem in adding 10-20 weapon bonus to the 3 slot in the line.And if your not speccing down str/agil/4-10 stam your doing it wrong. sorry</blockquote> how am i doing it wrong? i dont raid my brig and with his aoe avoid proc i hardley take aoe damage when doing pick ups.. guess im lucky? the wis line is the way to go. 30% accuracy debuff and 5% weapon bonus will work.. the question is how well. either way any brig or swash not going down this line now is an idiot.</blockquote>I assumed you raid, my bad. Honestly tho, what else is there to get in the rogue line? the upgrades to the CA's aren't even noticable... the only thing outside of obvious str/agil lines are either 4-10 stam and points into pick pocket for more agil... other than that the rest of it sucks tbh.

Davngr1

09-30-2010, 08:09 PM

<cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><div>Okay, take three!</div> <div> </div> <div>We've removed the empty slot requirment completely, and we're now looking at this line similarly to the Traumatic Swipe line. It should focus on debuffs while also providing a small DPS boost. </div> <div> </div> <ul><li>Deft Disarm now debuffs WIS in addition to STR. Even if the target is a mage or scout, you can at least use this debuff to slightly lower the target's magical resists. With just those two stats, this is still a compelling option relative to the first slot in the other lines in this tree.</li><li>Lunge Reversal is in the second slot of this line.</li><li>The third slot is 1.4% Multi-Attack per point. That's 14% with 10 points.</li><li>Coule remains unchanged. The positional requirement is a factor in balancing this ability, so removing that requirement would mean the ability would need to have a weaker effect. </li><li>Traumatic Swipe now debuffs 5% potency in addition to reuse speed. The potency portion of the debuff will take effect even against AEs that are uneffected by the reuse portion.</li></ul> <div> </div> <div>Let us know how you guys feel this line will stack up against the Traumatic Swipe line (considering the buff to Swipe).</div></div></div></blockquote>This is the kind of stuff we need here, making people think about which spec would be best.... Great update, thanks!Edit: Is the weapon bonus still going to be in the third slot?</blockquote>No, with being able to use both weapons, there's no reason to increase the weapon bonus anymore.</blockquote>Hmm I don't see why it shouldn't still be there, I mean maybe not 50% but there should be atleast something there still.</blockquote> before depending on the encounter and quality of weaps there might or might not have been a loss of dps. now there is absolutely no chance of any kind of dps loss and you're still getting the best debuff in game. are you really complaining? lol seriously i can finnaly have a third line to spend points on with my brig. until now the extra aa had been used on agi.</blockquote>No one knows if the acc reducer/weapon damage reducer will even work. Now that there changing traumatic swipe to reduce AE damage its better as of right now, at least until Coule gets tested. I guess I just want more dps, I don't see a problem in adding 10-20 weapon bonus to the 3 slot in the line.And if your not speccing down str/agil/4-10 stam your doing it wrong. sorry</blockquote> how am i doing it wrong? i dont raid my brig and with his aoe avoid proc i hardley take aoe damage when doing pick ups.. guess im lucky? the wis line is the way to go. 30% accuracy debuff and 5% weapon bonus will work.. the question is how well. either way any brig or swash not going down this line now is an idiot.</blockquote>I assumed you raid, my bad. Honestly tho, what else is there to get in the rogue line? the upgrades to the CA's aren't even noticable... the only thing outside of obvious str/agil lines are either 4-10 stam and points into pick pocket for more agil... other than that the rest of it sucks tbh.</blockquote> yes the rest does suck but once this is out wis all the way. at least for my bg's/heroic content brig.

Geothe

09-30-2010, 08:15 PM

As for Coule:I have a feeling 30% accuracy reduction wont do a single thing in raid situations, hence the addition of the 5% base damage mod reduction, as that will flat out reduce incoming autoattack from names by 5%.As far as the new changes go.At least its no longer a DPS loss taking the line. 14 Multiattack does seem a bit low to me, but what ever. Would of been nice to work out a nice way to keep the base damage mod in somehow, but this change was obviously a lot easier on the effort side of things.The first ability needs to reduce Agi/Int as well though IMO. As for Specs when this comes out:It is still possible to keep Str, Agi, and Wis end lines. So with the change to TS as well, rogues will actually have useful debuffs in raids again, and wont have to lose DPS to get them now.

Xalmat

09-30-2010, 08:50 PM

<cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for Coule:I have a feeling 30% accuracy reduction wont do a single thing in raid situations, hence the addition of the 5% base damage mod reduction, as that will flat out reduce incoming autoattack from names by 5%.</blockquote>5% potency does not affect mob auto-attack. 5% potency affects mob spells/CAs.

Notsovilepriest

09-30-2010, 08:53 PM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for Coule:I have a feeling 30% accuracy reduction wont do a single thing in raid situations, hence the addition of the 5% base damage mod reduction, as that will flat out reduce incoming autoattack from names by 5%.</blockquote>5% potency does not affect mob auto-attack. 5% potency affects mob spells/CAs.</blockquote>Coule's Debuff is 5% Base Melee Damage, (S)He just worded poorly

Geothe

09-30-2010, 08:54 PM

<cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Geothe wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for Coule:I have a feeling 30% accuracy reduction wont do a single thing in raid situations, hence the addition of the 5% base damage mod reduction, as that will flat out reduce incoming autoattack from names by 5%.</blockquote>5% potency does not affect mob auto-attack. 5% potency affects mob spells/CAs.</blockquote>No duh.Good thing Coule isn't a potency debuff, but a base weapon mod debuff then isn't it then?

aislynn00

09-30-2010, 09:18 PM

<cite>Gungo wrote:</cite><blockquote>That to me sounds balanced when people have a hard time decided which of the abilities to use. </blockquote>Too bad Xelgad couldn't have done the same for guardians. At least he seemed to listen to you rogues.

MaxDaft

09-30-2010, 09:28 PM

Treznet

09-30-2010, 11:45 PM

looks like theres some potential here. I'll have to test it out after raid, looks like we can actually use this though even though it doesnt look like a much of a buff.

Notsovilepriest

09-30-2010, 11:51 PM

<cite>Treznet wrote:</cite><blockquote>looks like theres some potential here. I'll have to test it out after raid, looks like we can actually use this though even though it doesnt look like a much of a buff.</blockquote>What do you want? I mean jesus

MaxDaft

10-01-2010, 01:09 AM

This is a great compromise compared to where we were headed, along with the dom/aa/double up change for brigs coupled with this new wis line and ts doing 5% potency debuff I am very happy.With the added multi attack even though it is not a ton it is some and will make templates easier to build and gives us a helping hand for the new multiattack upgrade coming with the xpack.+1 for xelgad and those who took the time to test and feed back on this.Now if I could just get some attention drawn to Brigands on shennanigans, Band of Thugs, and maybe adding a re-stealth capability on hit for our quick strike line to make rob worth a hoot, or re-tuning boot dagger to not lag or take so long for stealth component / reuse time. I will be absolutely perfectly happy with my class.Debuff monsters!

Malacha

10-01-2010, 03:04 AM

<cite>MaxDaft wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is a great compromise compared to where we were headed, along with the dom/aa/double up change for brigs coupled with this new wis line and ts doing 5% potency debuff I am very happy.</blockquote>What DOM change?

Darkor

10-01-2010, 04:07 AM

Too bad we couldnt keep atleast 5-10% Base Dmg, that would have been neat. Im gonna spec 3 endlines and sacrifice something else. Theres no chance im gonna drop TS just to keep some other minor stuff.

MaxDaft

10-01-2010, 04:24 AM

<cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MaxDaft wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is a great compromise compared to where we were headed, along with the dom/aa/double up change for brigs coupled with this new wis line and ts doing 5% potency debuff I am very happy.</blockquote>What DOM change?</blockquote>That you can double it up was my understanding... less I mis-read on flames.

Darkor

10-01-2010, 04:55 AM

<cite>MaxDaft wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malachani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MaxDaft wrote:</cite><blockquote>This is a great compromise compared to where we were headed, along with the dom/aa/double up change for brigs coupled with this new wis line and ts doing 5% potency debuff I am very happy.</blockquote>What DOM change?</blockquote>That you can double it up was my understanding... less I mis-read on flames.</blockquote>I dont think you can double up DoM since that abilty takes like 10 seconds to complete.

Darkor

10-01-2010, 08:31 AM

<cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><div>Okay, take three!</div> <div> </div> <div>We've removed the empty slot requirment completely, and we're now looking at this line similarly to the Traumatic Swipe line. It should focus on debuffs while also providing a small DPS boost. </div> <div> </div> <ul><li>Deft Disarm now debuffs WIS in addition to STR. Even if the target is a mage or scout, you can at least use this debuff to slightly lower the target's magical resists. With just those two stats, this is still a compelling option relative to the first slot in the other lines in this tree.</li><li>Lunge Reversal is in the second slot of this line.</li><li>The third slot is 1.4% Multi-Attack per point. That's 14% with 10 points.</li><li>Coule remains unchanged. The positional requirement is a factor in balancing this ability, so removing that requirement would mean the ability would need to have a weaker effect. </li><li>Traumatic Swipe now debuffs 5% potency in addition to reuse speed. The potency portion of the debuff will take effect even against AEs that are uneffected by the reuse portion.</li></ul> <div> </div> <div>Let us know how you guys feel this line will stack up against the Traumatic Swipe line (considering the buff to Swipe).</div></div></div></blockquote>Thanks again for the change, another topic tho.Can you please remove the weapon restriction on the rogues throwing combat art? That would be really nice.Also the swashy CA hail of storms could use a change since that CA is useless. The ranger CA which did the same got finally changed after some time. Maybe you could also make such a change to our CA?

Nidy

10-01-2010, 09:29 AM

I am surprised Xelgad gave in on the off hand empty. I think I was the only one that was content with the offhand empty.Why?The weapon bonus applied to our ranged as well. If they simply added 10 crit along with the 10 multiattack we gain 2 blue stats basically. Fix lunge rerversal to be a set proc and there was another blue. So all that was lost for NOW would have been some hits and the stats and an adornment. Expansion time they add a few primary weapons and that is solved.But that is a thing of the past now.THe changes look ok though I will say if you take the str and wis lines you now have 3 more buttons to push! I don't see how this line if considered a slight dps boost? Perhaps in the expansion but who raids now that isn't well over the 100 da. The only real difference is the occasional Lunge reversal. SO if the DPS increase is based on the expansion then its in the same boat as the original idea with empty off hand.So in reality the lines are the same and it becomes a choice of which debuff you want. If you say take all 3 endlines then you lose dps. What I will try right off the bat is to drop the strength line completely and put those points in the Wisdom line. DPS will be bascially the same and I will use coule as the debuff. The changes to swipe are ok but not worth the line and I can find Crit somewhere else.For the expansion, do us a favor and trash the rogue tree and just start over. The whole tree doesn't make sense anymore. As a matter of fact, DON'T add anymore aa's. Just trash all the aa's trees for all classes and redo them to make sense for the future. Most class trees have become outdated. As stated earlier in this thread, there should be choices. It should not be cut and clear that this spec is the best and everyone should have it. All 4 lines should be viable which leads to people speced out differently and all viable. Nidy

Geothe

10-01-2010, 11:27 AM

<cite>Nidy wrote:</cite><blockquote>THe changes look ok though I will say if you take the str and wis lines you now have 3 more buttons to push! I don't see how this line if considered a slight dps boost? Perhaps in the expansion but who raids now that isn't well over the 100 da. The only real difference is the occasional Lunge reversal. SO if the DPS increase is based on the expansion then its in the same boat as the original idea with empty off hand.So in reality the lines are the same and it becomes a choice of which debuff you want. If you say take all 3 endlines then you lose dps. What I will try right off the bat is to drop the strength line completely and put those points in the Wisdom line. DPS will be bascially the same and I will use coule as the debuff. The changes to swipe are ok but not worth the line and I can find Crit somewhere else.</blockquote>Not sure what you're smoking.1) "I don't see how this line if considered a slight dps boost" It isn't (until multattack will allow triple attacks). However, it ISNT a DPS loss either, which it was before, due to having an empty equipment slot and the loss of adorns/stats/procs that would result.2) "If you say take all 3 endlines then you lose dps." I have no clue where you pull this out. Taking all 3 endlines isn't a DPS loss at all. Most (raiders) Spec Str, Agi, Sta for HP, and Int for boot dagger, then with SF AAs get Potency, Reuse, and Accuracy along with DoM. Those AAs can be changed to endline in Str, Agi, and Wis. drop the Sta HPS (no DPS loss there), only have 1 point in Int for the boot dagger CA to pop to quick stealth. Still retaining full Potency and Reuse AAs, and have 6 instead of 8 AA in Accuracy, and have DOM still. So no loss of DPS at all.No idea what kind of convoluted AA spec you have that makes you think you'll lose DPS now. LOL

Nevao

10-01-2010, 11:35 AM

<cite>MaxDaft wrote:</cite><blockquote>That you can double it up was my understanding... less I mis-read on flames.</blockquote>Just verified on Test Copy that you can not Double Up DoM. I did not think you would be able to, but it was worth testing.

Malacha

10-01-2010, 02:26 PM

<cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MaxDaft wrote:</cite><blockquote>That you can double it up was my understanding... less I mis-read on flames.</blockquote>Just verified on Test Copy that you can not Double Up DoM. I did not think you would be able to, but it was worth testing.</blockquote>But you can double up Cornered, which will be HOT!

sodagreen

10-01-2010, 02:40 PM

Nidy

10-02-2010, 03:19 PM

I just wanted to say thanks to the Dev's for looking into the wis line. Xel takes a beating on all the boards but I think most appreciate the hard work tring to balance any change in this game.My feedback is purely my opinion.I think the wisdom line should go back to 1 hand with the bonus and DA. Add crit to the da so they are both 10. Add some 6 sec delay weapons that are usuable by scouts with slightly enhance stats when single wielded and change lunge to a straight proc. Take coule and make it the endline of the stamina line. It seems to fit that line more. Create a new endline for wis that would be a multi attack debuff for the wis line. It somewhat fits the 1 hand fencing theme of the wisdom line to lower multiattack. I just liked the idea of a different play style going one handed.Again my opinion and not a complaint on the current changes. It is a feedback thread afterall. The changes make the wisdom line usable but so generic, dare I say boring. I understand that one handed we lose stats in the short term since there are 6 second wepaons right now but in the long run I think it would be fun.Nidy

Notsovilepriest

10-02-2010, 03:49 PM

<cite>sodagreen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><div><div>Okay, take three!</div> <div> </div> <div>We've removed the empty slot requirment completely, and we're now looking at this line similarly to the Traumatic Swipe line. It should focus on debuffs while also providing a small DPS boost. </div> <div> </div> <ul><li>Deft Disarm now debuffs WIS in addition to STR. Even if the target is a mage or scout, you can at least use this debuff to slightly lower the target's magical resists. With just those two stats, this is still a compelling option relative to the first slot in the other lines in this tree.</li><li>Lunge Reversal is in the second slot of this line.</li><li>The third slot is 1.4% Multi-Attack per point. That's 14% with 10 points.</li><li>Coule remains unchanged. The positional requirement is a factor in balancing this ability, so removing that requirement would mean the ability would need to have a weaker effect. </li><li>Traumatic Swipe now debuffs 5% potency in addition to reuse speed. The potency portion of the debuff will take effect even against AEs that are uneffected by the reuse portion.</li></ul> <div> </div> <div>Let us know how you guys feel this line will stack up against the Traumatic Swipe line (considering the buff to Swipe).</div></div></div></blockquote>Some feedback idea:1.Deft Disarm debuffs mob's multi attack chance,maybe 15% or 10% of rouge's multi attack chance.2.Coule also buffs rouge's weapon damage bonus 5% for 20 sec.</blockquote>You're getting really greedy

Nevao

10-02-2010, 06:53 PM

<cite>sodagreen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some feedback idea:1.Deft Disarm debuffs mob's multi attack chance,maybe 15% or 10% of rouge's multi attack chance.2.Coule also buffs rouge's weapon damage bonus 5% for 20 sec.</blockquote>I have to agree that asking for this is starting to get greedy. We have a decent line now (potenially very good line if the Accuracy debuff works well) where before we had a completely useless line. People who wanted a DPS boost, or DPS line aren't going to like the changes but Xel stated this AA line was not meant to do that. Personally I think it's came a long a way and if Xel is going to spend any more time working on Rogue issues I think we'd be better served by him looking into either classes broken or useless CAs.

sodagreen

10-03-2010, 06:22 AM

<cite>Nevao wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>sodagreen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some feedback idea:1.Deft Disarm debuffs mob's multi attack chance,maybe 15% or 10% of rouge's multi attack chance.2.Coule also buffs rouge's weapon damage bonus 5% for 20 sec.</blockquote>I have to agree that asking for this is starting to get greedy. We have a decent line now (potenially very good line if the Accuracy debuff works well) where before we had a completely useless line. People who wanted a DPS boost, or DPS line aren't going to like the changes but Xel stated this AA line was not meant to do that. Personally I think it's came a long a way and if Xel is going to spend any more time working on Rogue issues I think we'd be better served by him looking into either classes broken or useless CAs.</blockquote>I need to say I appreciate Dev's work on WIS line and I like the latest designing line.I just have some feedback idea IMO.I know these may not come true.1.Comparing with STR line,debuff multi attack is suitable option IMO.STR line focus on debuffing ability state and Wis line focus on debuffing melee state.2.I recognize the idea is greedy.Comparing with TS,the latest version of coule is good enough.

Thunndar316

10-03-2010, 06:11 PM

If there is no benefit in changing from dual wield to fencing then there is really no point in doing any of this.

Notsovilepriest

10-03-2010, 06:21 PM

<cite>Thunndar316 wrote:</cite><blockquote>If there is no benefit in changing from dual wield to fencing then there is really no point in doing any of this.</blockquote>Did you read? You can still DW

Nidy

10-04-2010, 08:09 AM

Some more feedback.Wisdom LineGo back to the original idea. Leave off hand empty. Put the weapon bonus back in. Put back in the multi attack and add crit as well. Both will equal 10 at 10 points. Maybe lower this to a total of 8 da and 8 crit to be a bit more in line.Change lunge reversal to a basic 2.0/min proc along the lines of toxic tempest 1.Move coule to the strenth line and get rid of traumatic swipe all together. Create a new end line for Wisdom that debuffs multi attack and lowers potency by the 5%.Now you have 2 unique lines for 2 different playstyles. The wisdom line will be a bit behind the strength line in the short term because there are no specific weapons (6 second delay with slighly higher stats) until the expansion.This assumes that the accuracy debuff actually does something with Coule.Nidy

ShinGoku

10-04-2010, 08:28 AM

Here is the question no one has asked yet...Can we get a free AA respec when this goes live?

Darkor

10-04-2010, 08:48 AM

I personally would have liked the 1 hand restriction because i think its cool and unique but lets be real for a minute. It will be really really lame when DoV comes out with all its shiny new weapons and you have to chose between 1 of them. I repeat, it is just a personal preference from my side to have a 1 hand style, thinking about it twice does not make sense. I just hoped we could keep some weapon dmg bonus from like 5-10%.

Nidy

10-04-2010, 10:14 AM

Well look a this way. You will choose between a cool 6second delay weapon with higher stats to make up for loss of dual wield or two nice weapons for dual wield. Perhaps you have all 3 with a spec mirror and swap as needed. Its all about versatility. Gear choices and spec choices and I am with you, i like the idea of a fencing rogue.

Dareena

10-04-2010, 10:29 AM

<cite>Nidy wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well look a this way. You will choose between a cool 6second delay weapon with higher stats to make up for loss of dual wield or two nice weapons for dual wield. Perhaps you have all 3 with a spec mirror and swap as needed. Its all about versatility. Gear choices and spec choices and I am with you, i like the idea of a fencing rogue.</blockquote>A "cool" 6.0 delay Scout 1-hander? Since when do we get access to 6.0 weapons? Do you mean that a Rogue would have to use a weapon with Fighter specific stats and a dev would have to remember to allow Scouts (or Rogues) to wield it? Or would you prefer that Rogues get their own specific 6.0 weapons?No matter how you cut it, that's a messed up situation. You want to place yourself into an obscure weapons niche and place your faith that a dev will make maybe a few weapons (at best) to satisfy your needs? While at the same time, you basically want to ignore every other Scout melee weapon? Wow. That's... I'm kind of at a loss for words.The itemization dev still hasn't even introduced new T9 Round Shields into the game. For over half a year, Scouts have been asking for these. Between Mark and Seal vendors, adding such items would have been easy. Even the BG / PvP merchants could have filled this role. But has any of that happened? No. Not at all. And you want to place Rogues into an even more obscure position than the current Round Shield matter?Our Wisdom line is finally viable. Many people will use Str / Agi / Wis for a debuffing dps build. Or they'll sacrifice either the Str or Wis line for the bonus +10% Max Health in the Stamina line. From all of the channel discussions that I've witnessed on LDL, everyone has a different opinion on the matter. If you ask me, I'd say that this is a sign that the lines are fixed. People are actually having to debate the usefullness of the Str and Wis end lines, yet also having to compare them with the bonus health. There is no longer a thoughtless decision, which is a true sign that things are closer to balance.

Geothe

10-04-2010, 11:23 AM

<cite>Nidy wrote:</cite><blockquote>{stuff}</blockquote>No.Wis line is a viable option as is now.And it essentially requires zero extra effort on Devs' part.Your "suggestion" would make it far too situational and would require new itemization for Rogues.. and being as it is already apparently impossible for Devs to itemize round shields what-so-ever, trying to get further itemization is a laughable proposal.

-=Hoss=-

10-04-2010, 12:11 PM

Good job Xelgad and team (I'm assuming). Both on the line and listening to feedback. I, too wish it would have stayed a 1 hand line with the huge weapon bonus, and you'd just changed it to allow us to use a stat-holder in the offhand. (shield, symbol, or even a weapon we simply wouldn't use when in the fencer stance) But like others have been said, its now a viable line, and that's cool beans. Next month, I will be whining about having to make choices, so be ready for it.

Nidy

10-04-2010, 02:00 PM

There are round shields in the game right now. I have seen 2 drop. I will admit there probably should be more but saying there are none is incorrect. Asking to be included on 6 second fighter weapons is as simple as adding another blue stat for scouts or modifying the hate generating parts to fighter only. To repeat myself,i am not complaining about the current test version of the wisdom line. i just find it generic and boring. whats wrong with a little diversity, some real choices. why must everyone spec the exact same way. the big choice is now whether to have 10% more hits or three end lines. Everyone is going to be spec'ed identically basically. I respect everyones opinion so no need to flame others ideas. I am just seeking diversity

Treznet

10-04-2010, 06:18 PM

<cite>Nidy wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are round shields in the game right now. I have seen 2 drop. I will admit there probably should be more but saying there are none is incorrect. Asking to be included on 6 second fighter weapons is as simple as adding another blue stat for scouts or modifying the hate generating parts to fighter only. To repeat myself,i am not complaining about the current test version of the wisdom line. i just find it generic and boring. whats wrong with a little diversity, some real choices. why must everyone spec the exact same way. the big choice is now whether to have 10% more hits or three end lines. Everyone is going to be spec'ed identically basically. I respect everyones opinion so no need to flame others ideas. I am just seeking diversity</blockquote>The problem with having diversity is that you are forgotten by other devs that do not know all the classes well. Basically its how we ended up in the boat we were in with the wis line. They decided to change all weapons to being able to be dual wield and did away with the old style of having 1h only weapons. THis is the reason the wis line died, They either forgot or didnt want to design weapons specifically for rogues. The empty offhand idea is obsolete, plain and simple. There is no way you can make aa's to compensate for weapon stats/bonouses that you have no idea what they will be in future expansions. I dont see us getting special 6 sec weapons made specifically for our aa line either. what would they do label them 1h only? Thats the idea they changed years ago to make all 1h weapons dual wield. So you want them to go backwards? I dont get the want to handicap yourself to be different, theres nothing great and special about losing an equipment slot.