Taunts In PvP!

[TheVekk]

<p>Frist off, I am not crying in this thread, i am just curious of what everyone else thinks about this topic.</p><p>Second, im not a tank ive played a pally but that is the extent of my tanking, i play a healer as my main.</p><p>The Problem:</p><p>From a healers point of veiw one decent tank in a grp vs grp pvp fight can make healing very stressfull. when healers are taunted in pvp they can not use any single target heals what so ever which is a good way to stop a healer in pvp keep them locked on the tank and kill there grp.</p><p>But what does bother me that a grp can have 3 tanks and keep everyone locked down making it Impossible to heal what so ever, if im locked down by 3 tanks which happens all the time that means i am retricted to use my 2 grps heals for everyone includeing myself. my single target heals are worthless i get invaild target when taunt locked becuse im being forced to target and enemy.</p><p>Plus with people using the shifting band as a tank getting taunted to no target every 5 seconds aswell can make healing impossible.</p><p>Before it wasnt realy an issuse with me becuse if you had 3 tanks in your grp your dps was alot lower and normaly not realy an issuse for me to heal through. but now with the sick amount of DPS the fighters can push out it is starting to become a bigger problem.</p><p>This is probly one of the reason healers are far and few between when it comes to BG's and even ope world pvp.</p><p>The Fix:</p><p>Some people are saying add a taunt immunity in pvp, this i would agree with but this must not be over done! if this effect is to harsh it will destroy tanks totaly making them worthless in pvp grp what is the point of taunting if everytime you do they are immune.</p><p>Fixing this problem will not be easy and if not done correctly can make taunt worthless, any thoughts on what should be done to help fix this problem?</p>

[Valind]

<p>Here's the solution!</p><p>Get a tank of your own. They can keep those pesky tanks locked onto them, and all you're getting taunted by is the encounter ones! Then again, you could use the PvP items provided by SOE that grant you immunity to target changing effects.</p><p>To quote myself:</p><p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No. You want immunity to taunts, kill the tank. </p></blockquote><p>I gotta say Im getting pretty sick of people coming here to scream nerf every time they get taunted. Its the primary effect of tanks. Its what they do. Should we be asking for heal immunity? OH NOES GUYS! I ALREADY HEALED YOU TWICE IN 10 SECONDS! NOW YOU HAVE IMMUNITY I CANT HEAL YOUS!!!!! OH TEH NOES!</p><p>Dumbest. Idea. EVAR!</p>

[TheVekk]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Here's the solution!</p><p>Get a tank of your own. They can keep those pesky tanks locked onto them, and all you're getting taunted by is the encounter ones! Then again, you could use the PvP items provided by SOE that grant you immunity to target changing effects.</p><p>To quote myself:</p><p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No. You want immunity to taunts, kill the tank. </p></blockquote><p>I gotta say Im getting pretty sick of people coming here to scream nerf every time they get taunted. Its the primary effect of tanks. Its what they do. Should we be asking for heal immunity? OH NOES GUYS! I ALREADY HEALED YOU TWICE IN 10 SECONDS! NOW YOU HAVE IMMUNITY I CANT HEAL YOUS!!!!! OH TEH NOES!</p><p>Dumbest. Idea. EVAR!</p></blockquote><p>Realy? so my 1 tank wont just get locked to one of there 3 tanks in there grp the entire fight? do u relize if the other grp has lets say a pally, zerker and bruiser, that is 7 grp taunts i mite be missing some and a crap ton of single target ones that lock EVERYONE to them?</p><p>that charm helps me for 10 seconds so after its over i just get taunt locked again.... this helps me how again?</p><p>your quote to say doesnt make much sense either but burning straight through most tanks now adays is like taking your hand a punching a Steel wall 3 times.</p><p>I am not crying and shouting NERF THEM OMG OMG, i said nothing about nerfing anything.</p><p>If you have ever played a healer and foguht a grp of people who had more then 1 tank you would see my point, clearly im not the only who sees this becuse healers are getting to be harder and harder to come by.</p>

[Thinwizzy]

<p>One of the things this game did right in pvp was making taunts effective in pvp.  I have tried alot of other games for pvp, and I was always annoyed/frustrated/disappointed at tanks having no real way to effectively do their job.  A tanks job is to protect his group.  One of the primary ways he does this is by forcing enemies to target himself.  Do not take this away.  These problems you are having have been around for a very long time.  Adapt.  Just because something is difficult does not mean it is broken or needs nerfing.  Sometimes it just means it is difficult and you need to learn to overcome or work around it.</p>

[Valind]

<p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>your quote to say doesnt make much sense either but burning straight through most tanks now adays is like taking your hand a punching a Steel wall 3 times.</p><p>I am not crying and shouting NERF THEM OMG OMG,<span style="color: #ff0000;"> i said nothing about nerfing anything</span>.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If you have ever played a healer and foguht a grp of people who had more then 1 tank you would see my point</span>, clearly im not the only who sees this becuse healers are getting to be harder and harder to come by.</p></blockquote><p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Some people are saying add a taunt immunity in pvp, this i would agree with but this must not be over done! if this effect is to harsh it will destroy tanks totaly making them worthless in pvp grp what is the point of taunting if everytime you do they are immune.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry mate, that looks like a nerf to me. Giving someone immunity to something is a nerf, no two ways about it. I LOLd when i saw your comment about seeing immune every tiem you hit a taunt. This is currently the siutation I find in BGs every day. There are alot of ways of making yourself immune to taunts. It's great when I hit Insolence and watch the immune messages fly. makes me feel real good about my class when i then get to watch my team crumble around me because I cant get the enemy off the squishies.</p><p>As for me playing a healer... look at the name, give you a hint, the character with that name is a Templar. I know all about being taunted as a healer. I know it is frustrating, but its a double-bind. Either taunts are useless, or you occasionally get taunt locked.</p>

[Aldhissla]

<p>In this thread:</p><p>Tanks countering tanks countering tanks.</p>

[TheVekk]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>your quote to say doesnt make much sense either but burning straight through most tanks now adays is like taking your hand a punching a Steel wall 3 times.</p><p>I am not crying and shouting NERF THEM OMG OMG,<span style="color: #ff0000;"> i said nothing about nerfing anything</span>.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If you have ever played a healer and foguht a grp of people who had more then 1 tank you would see my point</span>, clearly im not the only who sees this becuse healers are getting to be harder and harder to come by.</p></blockquote><p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Some people are saying add a taunt immunity in pvp, this i would agree with but this must not be over done! if this effect is to harsh it will destroy tanks totaly making them worthless in pvp grp what is the point of taunting if everytime you do they are immune.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry mate, that looks like a nerf to me. Giving someone immunity to something is a nerf, no two ways about it. I LOLd when i saw your comment about seeing immune every tiem you hit a taunt. This is currently the siutation I find in BGs every day. There are alot of ways of making yourself immune to taunts. It's great when I hit Insolence and watch the immune messages fly. makes me feel real good about my class when i then get to watch my team crumble around me because I cant get the enemy off the squishies.</p><p>As for me playing a healer... look at the name, give you a hint, the character with that name is a Templar. I know all about being taunted as a healer. I know it is frustrating, but its a double-bind. Either taunts are useless, or you <span style="font-size: large; color: #ff0000;">occasionally</span> get taunt locked.</p></blockquote><p>im not Occasinally getting taunted i am be locked for the entire fight is what im saying, i have fought grps with 2 or 3 tanks and been locked to him the entire fight, or simply just have one of those tank stay on me the entire fight to make sure i cant do anything.</p><p>you keep saying there are tons of items to prevent taunt locks as far as i know there are 2 or 3 a pvp charm which is ok i guess for 10 seconds with a recast and a item you can buy from a merchant that doesnt work in BG's.</p><p>list any that i missed.</p>

[Valind]

<p>Is there anything stopping you from taking more than one tank into your BG match? Or how about having multiple healers?</p><p>My usual BG team includes the follwing:Zerker (me)CoercerTemplarWarlockMysticAssasin</p><p>We have no problems with simply blowing through people. We've had fights against groups with up to 5 tanks and had no problems. Get better groups?</p>

[TheVekk]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Is there anything stopping you from taking more than one tank into your BG match? Or how about having multiple healers?</p><p>My usual BG team includes the follwing:Zerker (me)CoercerTemplarWarlockMysticAssasin</p><p>We have no problems with simply blowing through people. We've had fights against groups with up to 5 tanks and had no problems. Get better groups?</p></blockquote><p>so what you will only do BG's or pvp if you have a Stacked grp? that is what it sounds like to me.</p><p>personaly when I do take a grp of my guildys in we roll with</p><p>Pally/Zerker</p><p>Brig</p><p>dirge</p><p>warden</p><p>warlock</p><p>plus who ever else wants to come.</p><p>90% of the time we destroy the other team</p><p>you didnt list any of the items btw</p>

[Valind]

<p>Didn't list any because I don't know of any. There are several class abilities which make you or your group temporarily immune to taunts though.</p><p>It just looks to me like you got beat and so now you're here screaming nerf. I don't see a problem. Yes it sucks being taunted, but it sucks having all my damage healed away as well. Im not here asking for heal immunity am I?</p>

[TheVekk]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Didn't list any because I don't know of any. There are several class abilities which make you or your group temporarily immune to taunts though.</p><p>It just looks to me like you got beat and so now you're here screaming nerf. I don't see a problem. Yes it sucks being taunted, but it sucks having all my damage healed away as well. Im not here asking for heal immunity am I?</p></blockquote><p>you keep saying im crying did you not read my frist post? I said im am wondering what people thing about the current state of taunts in pvp, how am i crying?</p><p>a warden has tortise shell which can stop group taunts but if im the one being targeted it does nothing what so ever for me.</p><p>i just find it old they nerf other CC effects but leave taunts as is that all.</p>

[Valind]

<p>I read your first post. I generally try to understand the topic before I start posting.</p><p>If you're the one being targetted then your tank is not doing his job.</p><p>Snares have no immunity. Interupts have no immunity. Taunts are not the only things that give immunity. Taunts are also the only thing on that list that SHOULD have no immunity. There are ways to avoid being taunted. Use them.</p>

[Magnis]

<p>Really dont sweat it. Taunts are fine. Adapt to situations.  These mechanics have been around for YEARs longer than most people have had any interest in PvP/....BG. People have efficiently adapted and will continue to adapt</p>

[TheVekk]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I read your first post. I generally try to understand the topic before I start posting.</p><p>If you're the one being targetted then your tank is not doing his job.</p><p>Snares have no immunity. Interupts have no immunity. Taunts are not the only things that give immunity. Taunts are also the only thing on that list that SHOULD have no immunity. There are ways to avoid being taunted. Use them.</p></blockquote><p>List me the way you can avoid the taunts and i will change my arguement but so far all you have said ia QQ more.</p>

[TheVekk]

<p><cite>Magnis@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Really dont sweat it. Taunts are fine. Adapt to situations.  These mechanics have been around for YEARs longer than most people have had any interest in PvP/....BG. People have efficiently adapted and will continue to adapt</p></blockquote><p>i know taunts have been around for a loooooooooong time and i havnt realy had a major problem with them, but with the increaseing amount of dps a tank can put out now adays its getting to the point to where why even bring scouts when you can bring 3 tank to make sure everyone is always taunts locked some heals and a mage dps.</p><p>if i tanks job is to taunt then why can they parse 10k plus?or heal for over 100k? i am completly fine with tanks being able to taunt but when they can do all of these is when i start having a problem.</p>

[Valind]

<p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>List me the way you can avoid the taunts and i will change my arguement but so far all you have said ia QQ more.</p></blockquote><p>QQ moar is pretty much all that needs to be said, however...</p><p>How to avoid being taunted 101.</p><p>1. Kill the tanks. With the group you listed it should be fairly easy.2. Stay out of taunt range.3. Stand on your tank and have him keep them off you.4. Use the charm clicky.5. Make sure your auto-attack is off to avoid proccing extra taunts.6. AoE avoidance means they have to be targetting you to taunt you.7. Some taunts can be cured!8. If you're a crusader you can make yourself immune to taunts.9. Templars get Sanctuary.10. Kill the tanks. Your listed BG group has PLENTY of DPS, just blow them up.I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I came up with without putting any thought into it. Short of immunity (which you can get!) you will never be able to completely avoid being taunted, but you can reduce the time you spend taunted by doing the above. Knowing you, you're hitting your CAs as often as your heals.</p><p>Now having told you the super sekret taunt avoidance moves, let me just remind you that Dr00d group regens are about 17 times as effective as group wards/reactives. Your group heal also has a small regen on it. I'm sorry, the one thing wardens are not lacking is group healing power. Like I suggested above, take a second tank. Maybe take a second healer in your group too? Oh, and since you raid you should have no trouble getting items with ward procs. Go get em!</p>

[TheVekk]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>List me the way you can avoid the taunts and i will change my arguement but so far all you have said ia QQ more.</p></blockquote><p>QQ moar is pretty much all that needs to be said, however...</p><p>How to avoid being taunted 101.</p><p>1. Kill the tanks. With the group you listed it should be fairly easy.<span style="color: #ff0000;">id like to see someone brust a tank down with 2 other tanks in there grp let along there healers.</span>2. Stay out of taunt range. <span style="color: #ff0000;">in order for me to be in heal range more then half the time im in range of grp taunts so ya..</span>3. Stand on your tank and have him keep them off you. <span style="color: #ff0000;">umm? ok so how can i range them if i have to stand on my tank?</span>4. Use the charm clicky. <span style="color: #ff0000;">ok 10 sec immune that works.</span>5. Make sure your auto-attack is off to avoid proccing extra taunts. <span style="color: #ff0000;">ok? assumning they have auto target on.</span>6. AoE avoidance means they have to be targetting you to taunt you. <span style="color: #ff0000;">yes aoe immune means i cant get hit unless im the target but if they have more then one tank why wouldnt one of them just try and lock me down?</span>7. Some taunts can be cured! <span style="color: #ff0000;">yes assumeing you can target yourself to cure it.</span>8. If you're a crusader you can make yourself immune to taunts. <span style="color: #ff0000;">we are talking about healers bro.</span>9. Templars get Sanctuary.<span style="color: #ff0000;"> yay for templars, recently check sanctuary descrition doesnt say anything about taunts ( could be wrong )</span>10. Kill the tanks.<span style="color: #000000;"> Your listed BG group has PLENTY of DPS, just blow them up</span><span style="color: #ff0000;">. again id like to see you try with 2 other tanks in there grp lol</span>I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I came up with without putting any thought into it. Short of immunity (which you can get!) you will never be able to completely avoid being taunted, but you can reduce the time you spend taunted by doing the above. Knowing you, you're hitting your CAs as often as your heals.</p><p>Now having told you the super sekret taunt avoidance moves, let me just remind you that Dr00d group regens are about 17 times as effective as group wards/reactives. Your group heal also has a small regen on it. I'm sorry, the one thing wardens are not lacking is group healing power. Like I suggested above, take a second tank. Maybe take a second healer in your group too? Oh, and since you raid you should have no trouble getting items with ward procs. Go get em!</p></blockquote><p>knowing me? do you even know me? if you think im one of those warden like darkenn that think dps is everything then you realy dont have a clue about me i care about doing my job as a healer keeping my grp alive dps isnt impostant...</p><p>and most of those little tips as you are worthless, what world do you live in? oh that right you dont pvp outside of Stack grps so you dont have to deal with any of the problem half the other people do. you get into a pvp fight with enough dps the fight doesnt like more then 20 seconds.</p><p>BTW: bruiser divide and conquoer effects your entire grp even if your not near that tank, plus the sk myth also has chance to taunt you from across the zone lol...</p>

[Bassman]

<p>Oh Oh, my favorite is killing the tank and being taunt locked to his corpse.  Classic.  Taunts have been around for a long time and yes, everyone has found ways around it, however, with DPS out of control with scouts... and Tanks new durability taunts have increasingly become an eye sour.  Personally I wouldn't touch the taunts, but pretty much everything else about at tank I probably would.</p>

[Cigam]

<p>He isnt crying nerf... just fix it.  (sorry had to say it like everyone else with caster damage LOL)</p>

[Valind]

<p>Look at it this way Vekk. If you nerf taunts by adding an immunity, yes you wont be locked onto tanks, so you'll be able to use your single-target heals more often... but you will NEED to use them constantly because the DPS will no longer be locked onto the tanks, so that big target floating above your head, you know, the white cross on the green background? That big target means you'll be needing those heals for yourself because you'll be the one tanking.</p><p>Its a lose-lose situation.</p><p>The only way to make it better (IMO) is to reduce the number of tanks playing BGs and the way to do that is to fix the other aspects of tanks. Tanks do too much damage while grouped. They also heal too much (but lets be fair, EVERYONE can heal alot now). You want to ix your taunt problem? nerf tanks, starting with the SKs. less tanks = less taunts.</p>

[Crismorn]

<p>Hopefully when spell dmg is increased alot of the fighters will feel comfortable enough to play their mage again.</p><p>Its nice to know that you can get gear, lvls and aa's much faster then the time it takes to actually learn how to play the class you rolled</p>

[Brigh]

<p><em>AoE avoidance means they have to be targetting you to taunt you.If you're a crusader you can make yourself immune to taunts.</em></p><p>I assume, as usually expected on this forum, that everyone is talking purely T9, and ignoring the little people.</p><p>Do you mean signets of ethereal form work?</p><p>I certainly know nothing about crusader immunity to taunts, never taking one past T7 on pve or pvp.</p>

[Buttcliffe]

<p>I agree with Vekk on this one.</p><p>Certainly, taunts were a great addition to the game.  I agree they made tanks more effective, and able to do their job of protecting their group.</p><p>It's true though, without much work, a multi-tank group can effectivelt lock another group, including the healers onto them constantly.</p><p>Only thing I can think of that would work well and give best of both worlds at this time would be: <span style="color: #ff6600;">Short Immunity to taunt if recently taunted</span></p><p>That would give at least a chance to get some single target heals off, before being taunted again.  Skilled healers like Vekk will be able to deal with that.</p><p>I also believe (even though I am a healer) that Banshee Hoop is OP, and needs changing <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Brynhild]

<p>I think priests should get some sort of taunt immunity that's specific to the priest class in general, but to have it immune on the other classes, no way <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Vlahkmaak]

<p><cite>Brynhild wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think priests should get some sort of taunt immunity that's specific to the priest class in general, but to have it immune on the other classes, no way <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>I think guardians should get a 100% prevent heal chance so when I attack a healer they cannot heal themselves or anyone in their grp - just my opinion though<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" /></p>

[Sapphy]

<p><cite>Brynhild wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think priests should get some sort of taunt immunity that's specific to the priest class in general, but to have it immune on the other classes, no way <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>I think a better idea then to give healers a taunt immunity is to give bard or another support class the ability to target someone in group and give them taunt immunity.  This would promote a better group dynamic and strengthen other class roles in pvp, give healers a viable option for dealing with taunts, while still allowing healers to have crucial vulnerabilities when alone or when group members die.  </p><p>The problem with pvp atm is that there really needs to be greater balance between classes, in that each class should have the capacity to add an equal benefit to any group on an equal skill level.  We are already placing too much emphasis on the interplay between healers and tanks in a party and group success as a result is being increasingly defined by positions instead of group skill.</p>

[Valind]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>The only way to make it better (IMO) is to reduce the number of tanks playing BGs and the way to do that is to fix the other aspects of tanks. Tanks do too much damage while grouped. They also heal too much, but lets be fair, EVERYONE can heal alot now. You want to fix your taunt problem? nerf tanks, starting with the SKs. less tanks = less taunts.</p></blockquote>

[Brynhild]

<p>You forget one thing.. SK is extremely easy to outheal, they don't do much single target dps and they don't have stifles/stuns etc like berserkers do, and zerkers do a lot more aoe dps and hit harder.   When I'm playing my healer I laugh at SK because I know they can't do anything to me , although I know I can't hurt them either, lol..  Get 2 zerkers in a stacked group then u have a problem.</p>

[Valind]

<p><cite>Brynhild wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>You forget one thing.. SK is extremely easy to outheal, they don't do much single target dps and they don't have stifles/stuns etc like berserkers do, and zerkers do a lot more aoe dps and hit harder.   When I'm playing my healer I laugh at SK because I know they can't do anything to me , although I know I can't hurt them either, lol..  Get 2 zerkers in a stacked group then u have a problem.</p></blockquote><p>I'm sorry, are we playing the same game? SKs dont have much single-target DPS? Really? Are we talking T1 or T2 here?</p>

[Brynhild]

<p>Apparently you haven't seen any one actually do  6000 dps on a single target in pvp for 30s straight.  Not a SK alive that can do that, or even close to that, but scouts can, and they can stun,slow, and debuff on top of it.</p><p> SK is a joke for healers, SK hits you, cast one heal you are back at 100, SK hits you, cast one heal u are back at 100, it's easy and there's nothing they can do to stop you other than a couple KBs.   Scout attacks you, you just die when your temps run out and there's nothing you can do about it. BIG difference <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[baldwinboy3]

<p>My two cents is taunts are working well (and yes i play a healer and it can suck sometimes) but if they nerfed taunts they should hit all classes with a nerf in some way. nerfing is never the answer imo.</p><p>tanks job imo are to taunt taunt rescue and intercept and make targeting the squisies in grp hard. Its like saying make healers heals less because other classes cant kill you or the grp when your healing.</p>

[Owls]

<p>you need to calm down off the taunts...</p><p>if you want to get serious, just let me know, ill taunt you any time you like, its less than 10 seconds for sure</p><p>how long do your heals last?</p><p>how about breaking the monks FD in pvp</p><p>oh no he taunted me and FD'd to clear target and i cant do anything</p><p>just wait for 3 seconds for the taunt to expire or get out of range.</p><p>i dont know if your confused about how to use your class, but skill over gear is always the way to play</p><p>remember, there is a difference between PVP and PVE... pvp is broken and pve has better gear</p><p>if they keep nerfing this game my monk will be a warden no heals and my assn will be a mage with no spells</p><p>if they let me taunt more i would taunt so much that the whole zone of grey mobs would hit me just so i could deflect them all and proc wards while you did no damage whatsoever and i went afk while auto attack kept you locked for hours</p>

[Owls]

<p>oh yeah vekkstar</p><p>did you read what the did to warden heals in update notes...</p><p>if you dont like getting taunted maybe they should just take tanks out of the game and make everyone a healer</p><p>weeeee lets heal mobs to death, YAY</p>

[TheVekk]

<p><cite>Owls wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>you need to calm down off the taunts...</p><p>if you want to get serious, just let me know, ill taunt you any time you like, its less than 10 seconds for sure</p><p>how long do your heals last?</p><p>how about breaking the monks FD in pvp</p><p>oh no he taunted me and FD'd to clear target and i cant do anything</p><p>just wait for 3 seconds for the taunt to expire or get out of range.</p><p>i dont know if your confused about how to use your class, but skill over gear is always the way to play</p><p>remember, there is a difference between PVP and PVE... pvp is broken and pve has better gear</p><p>if they keep nerfing this game my monk will be a warden no heals and my assn will be a mage with no spells</p><p>if they let me taunt more i would taunt so much that the whole zone of grey mobs would hit me just so i could deflect them all and proc wards while you did no damage whatsoever and i went afk while auto attack kept you locked for hours</p></blockquote><p>umm? Ok</p><p>just for the record for people who keep saying so waht taunts only last a couple seconds, well in those 3 seconds an assassin or ranger can kill almost anyone.... being locked down sometimes is ok and i do not have a problem with that. i do have a problem when a grp has 3 tanks 2 rangers and a healer, and they cant not even be damaged becuse there tanks have such survieablity.</p><p>went a tank can top the dps parse + taunt + heal themself for over 100k, sometime needs to be done about it.</p><p>correct me if im wrong, a tanks job is to be able to keep everything on him and keep his grp safe, he is designed to be able to take hits.</p><p>yet we see tanks that full heal themselfs keep everything on them and parse 10k dps</p>

[TheVekk]

<p><cite>Owls wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>oh yeah vekkstar</p><p>did you read what the did to warden heals in update notes...</p><p>if you dont like getting taunted maybe they should just take tanks out of the game and make everyone a healer</p><p>weeeee lets heal mobs to death, YAY</p></blockquote><p>depends on what your talkin about? i havnt read anything recently being changed about the wardens heals. i may have missed one.</p><p>wont stop me from playin that class lol</p>

[Thinwizzy]

<p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>umm? Ok</p><p>just for the record for people who keep saying so waht taunts only last a couple seconds, well in those 3 seconds an assassin or ranger can kill almost anyone.... being locked down sometimes is ok and i do not have a problem with that. i do have a problem when a grp has 3 tanks 2 rangers and a healer, and they cant not even be damaged becuse there tanks have such survieablity.</p><p>went a tank can top the dps parse + taunt + heal themself for over 100k, sometime needs to be done about it.</p><p>correct me if im wrong, a tanks job is to be able to keep everything on him and keep his grp safe, he is designed to be able to take hits.</p><p>yet we see tanks that full heal themselfs keep everything on them and parse 10k dps</p></blockquote><p>I think you need to rethink your arguement.  From reading what you are posting, it sounds like the biggest issue you have is with tank doing lots of dps and lots of heals, yet you ask for their primary job to be nerfed.</p><p>Nerfing taunts will do nothing except help you die faster in group pvp.  Thank about that.  If your tank cannot protect you like you are asking for, you will die faster than you are now.</p><p>You say a tank should not be able to top a dps and heal parse, I would agree with that.  However, why is it logical to ask for a nerf to their ability to taunt instead?  This makes no sense at all.  Taunting is a tanks main job in group pvp.  Do not take this away from them.</p>

[TheVekk]

<p><cite>Thinwizzy@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>umm? Ok</p><p>just for the record for people who keep saying so waht taunts only last a couple seconds, well in those 3 seconds an assassin or ranger can kill almost anyone.... being locked down sometimes is ok and i do not have a problem with that. i do have a problem when a grp has 3 tanks 2 rangers and a healer, and they cant not even be damaged becuse there tanks have such survieablity.</p><p>went a tank can top the dps parse + taunt + heal themself for over 100k, sometime needs to be done about it.</p><p>correct me if im wrong, a tanks job is to be able to keep everything on him and keep his grp safe, he is designed to be able to take hits.</p><p>yet we see tanks that full heal themselfs keep everything on them and parse 10k dps</p></blockquote><p>I think you need to rethink your arguement.  From reading what you are posting, it sounds like the biggest issue you have is with tank doing lots of dps and lots of heals, yet you ask for their primary job to be nerfed.</p><p>Nerfing taunts will do nothing except help you die faster in group pvp.  Thank about that.  If your tank cannot protect you like you are asking for, you will die faster than you are now.</p><p>You say a tank should not be able to top a dps and heal parse, I would agree with that.  However, why is it logical to ask for a nerf to their ability to taunt instead?  This makes no sense at all.  Taunting is a tanks main job in group pvp.  Do not take this away from them.</p></blockquote><p>Frist off, on none of my post did I say taunts needed to be nerfed. I made a refrence to what some people want to see happen with taunts. I started this thread to see what everyone things about tanks in general right now, and taunts happen to be one of the big arguements in the game right now dealing with tanks alone with there healing abilitys.</p><p>everyone keeps saying all im doing is crying for a nerf, which is BS im trying to understand how everyone feels about tanks being able to do dps heals and tank. becuse imo it is total BS that a tank can do all these.</p>

[Valind]

<p>So you'd be happy to give up all your DPS? Because you're a healer and healers are meant to heal not DPS. And you'd be fine with giving up your ability to proc power to the group and yourself? Because you're a healer not an enchanter.</p><p>Give me a break.</p>

[Harbringer Doom]

<p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite> </cite></p><p>90% of the time we destroy the other team</p></blockquote><p>You "destroy the other team" 90% of the time you go into Battlegrounds... and you want to change a game dynamic because 10% of the time you feel you go up against a group setup that beats you... ?</p><p>Out of curiosity, what percent of that 10% of losses is because the other team is better as a whole, and not because their tanks are able to taunt lock you?</p><p>I can't believe you feel you win 90% of the time... yet something needs to change because you feel you should win more often.</p><p>Seriously, its difficult to believe.</p>

[Harbringer Doom]

<p><cite>TheVekk wrote</cite></p><blockquote><p>im trying to understand how everyone feels about tanks being able to do dps heals and tank. becuse imo it is total BS that a tank can do all these.</p></blockquote><p>I agree with you 100% here, except its not all "tanks" that can do this.  Some classes of tanks are stupidly broken and its ridiculous how blind to the problem SOE is.</p><p>Last night I was in a Ganak with a Beserker who topped the DPS parse, got the most kills, got the most killing blows, took the most damage, had the fewest deaths and was second on heal parse above a bunch of healers.</p><p>THIS is the problem.  Taunts are not the problem.</p>

[Sprin]

<p>I would also like to ask for enemies to be immune to their own heals for a while after they heal themselves, because lets face it, multiple healers shouldnt be able to heal so much...... cuz the healers I am fighting, they just heal too darn much, so I want them to not be able to heal for a given amount of time after they heal...  immunity to healers heals for the same ammount of time I'm immune to taunts...</p><p>Oh, and those scouts and mages just hit me too hard... I want an immunity from their damage after they hit me once... you know, cuz its just not fair that multiple DPS classes can all damage me back to back, chain damage is bunk... I want immunity to damage for the same amount of time i want immunity to taunts....</p><p>so in conclusion...</p><p>Make it so classes cant do what they are supposed to do because I'm unprepared for a fight and want immunities to everything...</p><p>Immunity to taunts, immunity to damage, immunities to heals in '10!!!</p>

[TheVekk]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So you'd be happy to give up all your DPS? Because you're a healer and healers are meant to heal not DPS. And you'd be fine with giving up your ability to proc power to the group and yourself? Because you're a healer not an enchanter.</p><p>Give me a break.</p></blockquote><p>TBH Yes i would give up all my dps abliltys, its not my job to worry about killing people in a grp its my job to keep everyone alive, i proc power to myself not my grp no idea what your talkin about. if you are refering to power procing items like the zarrakon belt those are items. we are talkin about class skills here dude.</p><p>you cant even compare healers to tanks even with healers able to dps.</p><p>you avg tanks now has what 65+ avoidence? plus 60+ mitigation, an sk in my guild has 71% mit solo with a 2 hander on and still has a 60% avoidence. he do sick amount of dps and not even be scratched, and if he does take dmg he can just heal.</p>

[TheVekk]

<p><cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would also like to ask for enemies to be immune to their own heals for a while after they heal themselves, because lets face it, multiple healers shouldnt be able to heal so much...... cuz the healers I am fighting, they just heal too darn much, so I want them to not be able to heal for a given amount of time after they heal...  immunity to healers heals for the same ammount of time I'm immune to taunts...</p><p>Oh, and those scouts and mages just hit me too hard... I want an immunity from their damage after they hit me once... you know, cuz its just not fair that multiple DPS classes can all damage me back to back, chain damage is bunk... I want immunity to damage for the same amount of time i want immunity to taunts....</p><p>so in conclusion...</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Make it so classes cant do what they are supposed to do</span> because I'm unprepared for a fight and want immunities to everything...</p><p>Immunity to taunts, immunity to damage, immunities to heals in '10!!!</p></blockquote><p>So what your saying is that a tank should be able to parse 10k, heal for over 100k have a sick avoidence and mitigation, taunt lock.</p><p>yea becuse there suppost be a healer+scout dps+tank.</p><p>this is so stupid if you cant see that tank classes are broken.</p>

[Sprin]

<p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would also like to ask for enemies to be immune to their own heals for a while after they heal themselves, because lets face it, multiple healers shouldnt be able to heal so much...... cuz the healers I am fighting, they just heal too darn much, so I want them to not be able to heal for a given amount of time after they heal...  immunity to healers heals for the same ammount of time I'm immune to taunts...</p><p>Oh, and those scouts and mages just hit me too hard... I want an immunity from their damage after they hit me once... you know, cuz its just not fair that multiple DPS classes can all damage me back to back, chain damage is bunk... I want immunity to damage for the same amount of time i want immunity to taunts....</p><p>so in conclusion...</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Make it so classes cant do what they are supposed to do</span> because I'm unprepared for a fight and want immunities to everything...</p><p>Immunity to taunts, immunity to damage, immunities to heals in '10!!!</p></blockquote><p>So what your saying is that a tank should be able to parse 10k, heal for over 100k have a sick avoidence and mitigation, taunt lock.</p><p>yea becuse there suppost be a healer+scout dps+tank.</p><p>this is so stupid if you cant see that tank classes are broken.</p></blockquote><p>So what YOU are saying is that in pvp tanks should not be able to take any damage, heal themselves, or taunt anyone...   so what exactly would they do then?</p><p>Tanks "taunts" in pvp do nothing other then lock target for a few seconds... and they can all be cured off by a healer... if tanks couldnt do damage in pvp, they would be completely worthless... and now you guys also want to take taunt locking away...  sounds like you just dont know how to play the game very well and you are taking it out on other classes TBH...</p><p>Im sorry if your tank is outhealing your healer... sounds like your healer is a junker...</p><p>Im sorry if your tank is outdpsng your dps classes... sounds like your grouping with junker DPS'rs</p><p>Im sorry if your healer doesnt know how to cure... sounds like your grouping with a junker healer....</p><p>Im sorry if your a healer / dps class and your tank isnt taunt locking the opposing tank onto them.... sounds like your grouping with a junker tank....</p><p>Sounds like you just need to group with people who know how to pvp... and/or you need to learn yourself</p>

[Uskeab]

<p>its not the 8 people hit for 1k dmg for a total of 8k dmg by the AOEing tank thats going to kill people.</p><p>Its the 1 scout or mage(maybe) thats going to hit for 8k singkle target and drop someone.</p><p>Dont be misled by large AOE numbers from tanks that are easily absorbed by wards/heals/procs.</p><p>PvP people know its the burst dps that actually kills people, especially in a grp v grp situation.</p><p>tanks will parse high with aoe dps and proc's and if taunting, people will be hitting him triggerig reactives and some of those pve aoe proc's.</p><p>And as a tank, the more i taunt, and keep my group alive, the longer i am going to get heals, the longer i am going to stay alive, to aoe and to heal myself, the better my numbers are going to be all around.</p><p>go get some "one way" tanks and [Removed for Content]. and lose in pvp.</p>

[Uskeab]

<p>as far as the high kill count. when your alive a long time, because your doing you job, you will aoe alot of people and get "high kill" counts, but does that mean your responsible for killing the all by yourself?</p>

[TheVekk]

<p><cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I would also like to ask for enemies to be immune to their own heals for a while after they heal themselves, because lets face it, multiple healers shouldnt be able to heal so much...... cuz the healers I am fighting, they just heal too darn much, so I want them to not be able to heal for a given amount of time after they heal...  immunity to healers heals for the same ammount of time I'm immune to taunts...</p><p>Oh, and those scouts and mages just hit me too hard... I want an immunity from their damage after they hit me once... you know, cuz its just not fair that multiple DPS classes can all damage me back to back, chain damage is bunk... I want immunity to damage for the same amount of time i want immunity to taunts....</p><p>so in conclusion...</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Make it so classes cant do what they are supposed to do</span> because I'm unprepared for a fight and want immunities to everything...</p><p>Immunity to taunts, immunity to damage, immunities to heals in '10!!!</p></blockquote><p>So what your saying is that a tank should be able to parse 10k, heal for over 100k have a sick avoidence and mitigation, taunt lock.</p><p>yea becuse there suppost be a healer+scout dps+tank.</p><p>this is so stupid if you cant see that tank classes are broken.</p></blockquote><p>So what YOU are saying is that in pvp tanks should not be able to take any damage, heal themselves, or taunt anyone...   so what exactly would they do then?</p><p>Tanks "taunts" in pvp do nothing other then lock target for a few seconds... and they can all be cured off by a healer... if tanks couldnt do damage in pvp, they would be completely worthless... and now you guys also want to take taunt locking away...  sounds like you just dont know how to play the game very well and you are taking it out on other classes TBH...</p><p>Im sorry if your tank is outhealing your healer... sounds like your healer is a junker...</p><p>Im sorry if your tank is outdpsng your dps classes... sounds like your grouping with junker DPS'rs</p><p>Im sorry if your healer doesnt know how to cure... sounds like your grouping with a junker healer....</p><p>Im sorry if your a healer / dps class and your tank isnt taunt locking the opposing tank onto them.... sounds like your grouping with a junker tank....</p><p>Sounds like you just need to group with people who know how to pvp... and/or you need to learn yourself</p></blockquote><p>have you actauly been reading what im typing, i have nothing againt taunts that is what they are there for. but being able to do that + parse extremly high and heal themself for over 100k is wrong.</p><p>for example the pally i grp with on an avg fight will heal himself for about 2k hps, that is with out even useing his heals. always is atleast 2nd or 3rd on the dps parse and can lock an entire grp down.</p>

[Muraazi]

<p><cite>Valindor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>your quote to say doesnt make much sense either but burning straight through most tanks now adays is like taking your hand a punching a Steel wall 3 times.</p><p>I am not crying and shouting NERF THEM OMG OMG,<span style="color: #ff0000;"> i said nothing about nerfing anything</span>.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">If you have ever played a healer and foguht a grp of people who had more then 1 tank you would see my point</span>, clearly im not the only who sees this becuse healers are getting to be harder and harder to come by.</p></blockquote><p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Some people are saying add a taunt immunity in pvp, this i would agree with but this must not be over done! if this effect is to harsh it will destroy tanks totaly making them worthless in pvp grp what is the point of taunting if everytime you do they are immune.</p></blockquote><p>Sorry mate, that looks like a nerf to me. Giving someone immunity to something is a nerf, no two ways about it. I LOLd when i saw your comment about seeing immune every tiem you hit a taunt. This is currently the siutation I find in BGs every day. There are alot of ways of making yourself immune to taunts. It's great when I hit Insolence and watch the immune messages fly. makes me feel real good about my class when<strong><em><span style="text-decoration: underline;"> i then get to watch my team crumble around me because I cant get the enemy off the squishies.</span></em></strong></p><p>As for me playing a healer... look at the name, give you a hint, the character with that name is a Templar. I know all about being taunted as a healer. I know it is frustrating, but its a double-bind. Either taunts are useless, or you occasionally get taunt locked.</p></blockquote><p>It's a two way street homie. Why is it ok for the tanks to do their job (with only a few ways to counter) but the healer not to? Why is it ok for the tanks to do their job but not the enchanters? Taunts do in essence create heal immunity. Not 100 percent because of group heals but still. Everyone has to deal with immunity in one shape or another while doing their "main job". DPS gets healed, healers get taunted, CC gets immunity, Taunts get nothing.</p>

[Sprin]

<p><cite>Muraazi wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>DPS gets healed, healers get taunted, CC gets immunity, Taunts get nothing.</p></blockquote><p>ALL taunts can be cured... if your healer doesnt cure off taunt effects, then buy a new healer TBH... thats part of healing, and thats one of the MAIN components in PVP.. cureing... thats why Inquisies are so [Removed for Content] OP in pvp.. that mythical cure is beast... if your healer isnt saving their group cure for when they get locked down on a tank, then shame on your healer...</p><p>your healer needs to group cure all taunts off the second they land... if your healer is doing that and you aren't getting cured, then stand closer to the healer... </p><p>If they have multiple tanks, get multiple healers... you cant compare apples and oranges...</p><p>taunts can and often do get resisted... get your wis, i guess soon to be STA up and its far more likely to get resisted outright..</p><p>You never see a "resisted" when a healer heals themselves or cures themself... you cant get resisted on your own heals/cures... so usem...</p>

[Splice]

<p>OK gunna add my 2 copper here and just say im an inquis and participate in pvp whenever posiible being world pvp or bg pvp and im pretty sure i can speek for most Templars and Inquisitors on this not the fact that tank taunt ability in pvp is nice in the fact that it gives a necesity for fighter classes in bgs and pvp. HOWEVER this should be just  their necesity as other classes have 1 or 2: Corecer/Illy= mezzes and power feed but low survivabilty, Scouts=high dps with snares with moderate survivabilty, Wizards/Warlocks/Conj/Necro=HIGHER dps than scouts (come tuesday) with snares but low survivability, Healers= Low DPS(way it should be) but add overall GREAT group survivabilty along with already good survivability, Now for Tanks=Taunts to keep others lock on and to  interrupt healers, High DPS(not thats of a mage but on par with most scouts), And just as high survivability as Healers. Now theres a list and the only problem i have with the whole thing is Tanks. I can agree that i dont have a single problem with guardians they are well rounded tank and hell even maybe should have 1-2 more group taunts. However the real problem is you have bruisers that can heal them selves through 8-10 people on them just cause of their avoidence, you have pally and sk's that can sit in the top 30% of dps and be heal for 1/3-1/2 of what i have healed for. And worst of all you have the Berzerker #1 rated op group tank to date now that taunts seem to interrupt every heal, Their myth buff remind you taunts target around them excessivley as a healer i can cure all i want to but when i finally get to target an ally to heal no sooner to i get them targeted a zerker has me back interupted and with him as the target. I have seen decent zerkers ant the top of the Damage/KIllS/DMG Taken/Heals recieved and top 4 in heals just under the 3rd healer. Now i would ecpect that tanks should be at top dmg taken and heals recieve but not on top of killing blows, kills ,damage done and some timeseven heals. A zerker shouldnt be able to heal for 2m in a 15 min fight thats [Removed for Content] near 2.5k hps. But back to the taunts give them the taunts but take way the interrupt it comes with or let them keep taunts and interrupts but after being taunted and its cured/duration runs out give hell idk a 2 sec imunitty from being taunted agian. thats 2 seconds that alows me to cast a single target heal or a dps to change target and get a cc off. Just make it so pvp isnt about who has a Zeker and another tank backed by 3 healers.</p>

[Valdar]

<p><cite>Splice wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>OK gunna add my 2 copper here and just say im an inquis and participate in pvp whenever posiible being world pvp or bg pvp and im pretty sure i can speek for most Templars and Inquisitors on this not the fact that tank taunt ability in pvp is nice in the fact that it gives a necesity for fighter classes in bgs and pvp. HOWEVER this should be just  their necesity as other classes have 1 or 2: Corecer/Illy= mezzes and power feed but low survivabilty, Scouts=high dps with snares with moderate survivabilty, Wizards/Warlocks/Conj/Necro=HIGHER dps than scouts (come tuesday) with snares but low survivability, Healers= Low DPS(way it should be) but add overall GREAT group survivabilty along with already good survivability, Now for Tanks=Taunts to keep others lock on and to  interrupt healers, High DPS(not thats of a mage but on par with most scouts), And just as high survivability as Healers. Now theres a list and the only problem i have with the whole thing is Tanks. I can agree that i dont have a single problem with guardians they are well rounded tank and hell even maybe should have 1-2 more group taunts. However the real problem is you have bruisers that can heal them selves through 8-10 people on them just cause of their avoidence, you have pally and sk's that can sit in the top 30% of dps and be heal for 1/3-1/2 of what i have healed for. And worst of all you have the Berzerker #1 rated op group tank to date now that taunts seem to interrupt every heal, Their myth buff remind you taunts target around them excessivley as a healer i can cure all i want to but when i finally get to target an ally to heal no sooner to i get them targeted a zerker has me back interupted and with him as the target. I have seen decent zerkers ant the top of the Damage/KIllS/DMG Taken/Heals recieved and top 4 in heals just under the 3rd healer. Now i would ecpect that tanks should be at top dmg taken and heals recieve but not on top of killing blows, kills ,damage done and some timeseven heals. A zerker shouldnt be able to heal for 2m in a 15 min fight thats [Removed for Content] near 2.5k hps. But back to the taunts give them the taunts but take way the interrupt it comes with or let them keep taunts and interrupts but after being taunted and its cured/duration runs out give hell idk a 2 sec imunitty from being taunted agian. thats 2 seconds that alows me to cast a single target heal or a dps to change target and get a cc off. Just make it so pvp isnt about who has a Zeker and another tank backed by 3 healers.</p></blockquote><p>Seriously, if you expect people to read what you post then don't post a wall of text. Just looking at it makes my eyes bleed.</p>

[Shiirr]

<p><cite>Horknut@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>TheVekk wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite> </cite></p><p>90% of the time we destroy the other team</p></blockquote><p>You "destroy the other team" 90% of the time you go into Battlegrounds... and you want to change a game dynamic because 10% of the time you feel you go up against a group setup that beats you... ?</p><p>Out of curiosity, what percent of that 10% of losses is because the other team is better as a whole, and not because their tanks are able to taunt lock you?</p><p>I can't believe you feel you win 90% of the time... yet something needs to change because you feel you should win more often.</p><p>Seriously, its difficult to believe.</p></blockquote><p>Worth repeating.</p>

[trovan2]

<p>I think that taunts last much too long and over-restrict what the taunted player can do. With tanks having a large amount of taunts and taunt-like effects, it is literally possible for a tank to keep a player taunted through an entire battle.</p><p>As the OP mentioned, it makes healing near impossible and when doubled with Shifting Band (effect: Averting Eyes), it makes it so that people can not target ANYTHING thus no one can heal or do damage.</p><p>In addition, tanks are steadily gaining the ability for massive DPS, sometimes out parsing even high-dps scouts/mages.</p><p>How is it balanced when a TANK can take massive amounts of damage AND deal out a substantial amount of DPS? Hell, tanks can even heal themself and easily get tons of ward gear.</p>