Taunts In PvP!

[TheVekk]

Frist off, I am not crying in this thread, i am just curious of what everyone else thinks about this topic.

Second, im not a tank ive played a pally but that is the extent of my tanking, i play a healer as my main.

The Problem:

From a healers point of veiw one decent tank in a grp vs grp pvp fight can make healing very stressfull. when healers are taunted in pvp they can not use any single target heals what so ever which is a good way to stop a healer in pvp keep them locked on the tank and kill there grp.

But what does bother me that a grp can have 3 tanks and keep everyone locked down making it Impossible to heal what so ever, if im locked down by 3 tanks which happens all the time that means i am retricted to use my 2 grps heals for everyone includeing myself. my single target heals are worthless i get invaild target when taunt locked becuse im being forced to target and enemy.

Plus with people using the shifting band as a tank getting taunted to no target every 5 seconds aswell can make healing impossible.

Before it wasnt realy an issuse with me becuse if you had 3 tanks in your grp your dps was alot lower and normaly not realy an issuse for me to heal through. but now with the sick amount of DPS the fighters can push out it is starting to become a bigger problem.

This is probly one of the reason healers are far and few between when it comes to BG's and even ope world pvp.

The Fix:

Some people are saying add a taunt immunity in pvp, this i would agree with but this must not be over done! if this effect is to harsh it will destroy tanks totaly making them worthless in pvp grp what is the point of taunting if everytime you do they are immune.

Fixing this problem will not be easy and if not done correctly can make taunt worthless, any thoughts on what should be done to help fix this problem?

[Valind]

Here's the solution!

Get a tank of your own. They can keep those pesky tanks locked onto them, and all you're getting taunted by is the encounter ones! Then again, you could use the PvP items provided by SOE that grant you immunity to target changing effects.

To quote myself:

Valindor wrote:

No. You want immunity to taunts, kill the tank. 

I gotta say Im getting pretty sick of people coming here to scream nerf every time they get taunted. Its the primary effect of tanks. Its what they do. Should we be asking for heal immunity? OH NOES GUYS! I ALREADY HEALED YOU TWICE IN 10 SECONDS! NOW YOU HAVE IMMUNITY I CANT HEAL YOUS!!!!! OH TEH NOES!

Dumbest. Idea. EVAR!

[TheVekk]

Valindor wrote:

Here's the solution!

Get a tank of your own. They can keep those pesky tanks locked onto them, and all you're getting taunted by is the encounter ones! Then again, you could use the PvP items provided by SOE that grant you immunity to target changing effects.

To quote myself:

Valindor wrote:

No. You want immunity to taunts, kill the tank. 

I gotta say Im getting pretty sick of people coming here to scream nerf every time they get taunted. Its the primary effect of tanks. Its what they do. Should we be asking for heal immunity? OH NOES GUYS! I ALREADY HEALED YOU TWICE IN 10 SECONDS! NOW YOU HAVE IMMUNITY I CANT HEAL YOUS!!!!! OH TEH NOES!

Dumbest. Idea. EVAR!

Realy? so my 1 tank wont just get locked to one of there 3 tanks in there grp the entire fight? do u relize if the other grp has lets say a pally, zerker and bruiser, that is 7 grp taunts i mite be missing some and a crap ton of single target ones that lock EVERYONE to them?

that charm helps me for 10 seconds so after its over i just get taunt locked again.... this helps me how again?

your quote to say doesnt make much sense either but burning straight through most tanks now adays is like taking your hand a punching a Steel wall 3 times.

I am not crying and shouting NERF THEM OMG OMG, i said nothing about nerfing anything.

If you have ever played a healer and foguht a grp of people who had more then 1 tank you would see my point, clearly im not the only who sees this becuse healers are getting to be harder and harder to come by.

[Thinwizzy]

One of the things this game did right in pvp was making taunts effective in pvp.  I have tried alot of other games for pvp, and I was always annoyed/frustrated/disappointed at tanks having no real way to effectively do their job.  A tanks job is to protect his group.  One of the primary ways he does this is by forcing enemies to target himself.  Do not take this away.  These problems you are having have been around for a very long time.  Adapt.  Just because something is difficult does not mean it is broken or needs nerfing.  Sometimes it just means it is difficult and you need to learn to overcome or work around it.

[Valind]

TheVekk wrote:

your quote to say doesnt make much sense either but burning straight through most tanks now adays is like taking your hand a punching a Steel wall 3 times.

I am not crying and shouting NERF THEM OMG OMG, i said nothing about nerfing anything.

If you have ever played a healer and foguht a grp of people who had more then 1 tank you would see my point, clearly im not the only who sees this becuse healers are getting to be harder and harder to come by.

TheVekk wrote:

Some people are saying add a taunt immunity in pvp, this i would agree with but this must not be over done! if this effect is to harsh it will destroy tanks totaly making them worthless in pvp grp what is the point of taunting if everytime you do they are immune.

Sorry mate, that looks like a nerf to me. Giving someone immunity to something is a nerf, no two ways about it. I LOLd when i saw your comment about seeing immune every tiem you hit a taunt. This is currently the siutation I find in BGs every day. There are alot of ways of making yourself immune to taunts. It's great when I hit Insolence and watch the immune messages fly. makes me feel real good about my class when i then get to watch my team crumble around me because I cant get the enemy off the squishies.

As for me playing a healer... look at the name, give you a hint, the character with that name is a Templar. I know all about being taunted as a healer. I know it is frustrating, but its a double-bind. Either taunts are useless, or you occasionally get taunt locked.

[Aldhissla]

In this thread:

Tanks countering tanks countering tanks.

[TheVekk]

Valindor wrote:

TheVekk wrote:

your quote to say doesnt make much sense either but burning straight through most tanks now adays is like taking your hand a punching a Steel wall 3 times.

I am not crying and shouting NERF THEM OMG OMG, i said nothing about nerfing anything.

If you have ever played a healer and foguht a grp of people who had more then 1 tank you would see my point, clearly im not the only who sees this becuse healers are getting to be harder and harder to come by.

TheVekk wrote:

Some people are saying add a taunt immunity in pvp, this i would agree with but this must not be over done! if this effect is to harsh it will destroy tanks totaly making them worthless in pvp grp what is the point of taunting if everytime you do they are immune.

Sorry mate, that looks like a nerf to me. Giving someone immunity to something is a nerf, no two ways about it. I LOLd when i saw your comment about seeing immune every tiem you hit a taunt. This is currently the siutation I find in BGs every day. There are alot of ways of making yourself immune to taunts. It's great when I hit Insolence and watch the immune messages fly. makes me feel real good about my class when i then get to watch my team crumble around me because I cant get the enemy off the squishies.

As for me playing a healer... look at the name, give you a hint, the character with that name is a Templar. I know all about being taunted as a healer. I know it is frustrating, but its a double-bind. Either taunts are useless, or you occasionally get taunt locked.

im not Occasinally getting taunted i am be locked for the entire fight is what im saying, i have fought grps with 2 or 3 tanks and been locked to him the entire fight, or simply just have one of those tank stay on me the entire fight to make sure i cant do anything.

you keep saying there are tons of items to prevent taunt locks as far as i know there are 2 or 3 a pvp charm which is ok i guess for 10 seconds with a recast and a item you can buy from a merchant that doesnt work in BG's.

list any that i missed.

[Valind]

Is there anything stopping you from taking more than one tank into your BG match? Or how about having multiple healers?

My usual BG team includes the follwing:Zerker (me)CoercerTemplarWarlockMysticAssasin

We have no problems with simply blowing through people. We've had fights against groups with up to 5 tanks and had no problems. Get better groups?

[TheVekk]

Valindor wrote:

Is there anything stopping you from taking more than one tank into your BG match? Or how about having multiple healers?

My usual BG team includes the follwing:Zerker (me)CoercerTemplarWarlockMysticAssasin

We have no problems with simply blowing through people. We've had fights against groups with up to 5 tanks and had no problems. Get better groups?

so what you will only do BG's or pvp if you have a Stacked grp? that is what it sounds like to me.

personaly when I do take a grp of my guildys in we roll with

Pally/Zerker

Brig

dirge

warden

warlock

plus who ever else wants to come.

90% of the time we destroy the other team

you didnt list any of the items btw

[Valind]

Didn't list any because I don't know of any. There are several class abilities which make you or your group temporarily immune to taunts though.

It just looks to me like you got beat and so now you're here screaming nerf. I don't see a problem. Yes it sucks being taunted, but it sucks having all my damage healed away as well. Im not here asking for heal immunity am I?

[TheVekk]

Valindor wrote:

Didn't list any because I don't know of any. There are several class abilities which make you or your group temporarily immune to taunts though.

It just looks to me like you got beat and so now you're here screaming nerf. I don't see a problem. Yes it sucks being taunted, but it sucks having all my damage healed away as well. Im not here asking for heal immunity am I?

you keep saying im crying did you not read my frist post? I said im am wondering what people thing about the current state of taunts in pvp, how am i crying?

a warden has tortise shell which can stop group taunts but if im the one being targeted it does nothing what so ever for me.

i just find it old they nerf other CC effects but leave taunts as is that all.

[Valind]

I read your first post. I generally try to understand the topic before I start posting.

If you're the one being targetted then your tank is not doing his job.

Snares have no immunity. Interupts have no immunity. Taunts are not the only things that give immunity. Taunts are also the only thing on that list that SHOULD have no immunity. There are ways to avoid being taunted. Use them.

[Magnis]

Really dont sweat it. Taunts are fine. Adapt to situations.  These mechanics have been around for YEARs longer than most people have had any interest in PvP/....BG. People have efficiently adapted and will continue to adapt

[TheVekk]

Valindor wrote:

I read your first post. I generally try to understand the topic before I start posting.

If you're the one being targetted then your tank is not doing his job.

Snares have no immunity. Interupts have no immunity. Taunts are not the only things that give immunity. Taunts are also the only thing on that list that SHOULD have no immunity. There are ways to avoid being taunted. Use them.

List me the way you can avoid the taunts and i will change my arguement but so far all you have said ia QQ more.

[TheVekk]

Magnis@Nagafen wrote:

Really dont sweat it. Taunts are fine. Adapt to situations.  These mechanics have been around for YEARs longer than most people have had any interest in PvP/....BG. People have efficiently adapted and will continue to adapt

i know taunts have been around for a loooooooooong time and i havnt realy had a major problem with them, but with the increaseing amount of dps a tank can put out now adays its getting to the point to where why even bring scouts when you can bring 3 tank to make sure everyone is always taunts locked some heals and a mage dps.

if i tanks job is to taunt then why can they parse 10k plus?or heal for over 100k? i am completly fine with tanks being able to taunt but when they can do all of these is when i start having a problem.

[Valind]

TheVekk wrote:

List me the way you can avoid the taunts and i will change my arguement but so far all you have said ia QQ more.

QQ moar is pretty much all that needs to be said, however...

How to avoid being taunted 101.

1. Kill the tanks. With the group you listed it should be fairly easy.2. Stay out of taunt range.3. Stand on your tank and have him keep them off you.4. Use the charm clicky.5. Make sure your auto-attack is off to avoid proccing extra taunts.6. AoE avoidance means they have to be targetting you to taunt you.7. Some taunts can be cured!8. If you're a crusader you can make yourself immune to taunts.9. Templars get Sanctuary.10. Kill the tanks. Your listed BG group has PLENTY of DPS, just blow them up.I'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I came up with without putting any thought into it. Short of immunity (which you can get!) you will never be able to completely avoid being taunted, but you can reduce the time you spend taunted by doing the above. Knowing you, you're hitting your CAs as often as your heals.

Now having told you the super sekret taunt avoidance moves, let me just remind you that Dr00d group regens are about 17 times as effective as group wards/reactives. Your group heal also has a small regen on it. I'm sorry, the one thing wardens are not lacking is group healing power. Like I suggested above, take a second tank. Maybe take a second healer in your group too? Oh, and since you raid you should have no trouble getting items with ward procs. Go get em!

[TheVekk]

Valindor wrote:

TheVekk wrote:

List me the way you can avoid the taunts and i will change my arguement but so far all you have said ia QQ more.

QQ moar is pretty much all that needs to be said, however...

How to avoid being taunted 101.

1. Kill the tanks. With the group you listed it should be fairly easy.id like to see someone brust a tank down with 2 other tanks in there grp let along there healers.2. Stay out of taunt range. in order for me to be in heal range more then half the time im in range of grp taunts so ya..3. Stand on your tank and have him keep them off you. umm? ok so how can i range them if i have to stand on my tank?4. Use the charm clicky. ok 10 sec immune that works.5. Make sure your auto-attack is off to avoid proccing extra taunts. ok? assumning they have auto target on.6. AoE avoidance means they have to be targetting you to taunt you. yes aoe immune means i cant get hit unless im the target but if they have more then one tank why wouldnt one of them just try and lock me down?7. Some taunts can be cured! yes assumeing you can target yourself to cure it.8. If you're a crusader you can make yourself immune to taunts. we are talking about healers bro.9. Templars get Sanctuary. yay for templars, recently check sanctuary descrition doesnt say anything about taunts ( could be wrong )10. Kill the tanks. Your listed BG group has PLENTY of DPS, just blow them up. again id like to see you try with 2 other tanks in there grp lolI'm sure there are more, but those are the ones I came up with without putting any thought into it. Short of immunity (which you can get!) you will never be able to completely avoid being taunted, but you can reduce the time you spend taunted by doing the above. Knowing you, you're hitting your CAs as often as your heals.

Now having told you the super sekret taunt avoidance moves, let me just remind you that Dr00d group regens are about 17 times as effective as group wards/reactives. Your group heal also has a small regen on it. I'm sorry, the one thing wardens are not lacking is group healing power. Like I suggested above, take a second tank. Maybe take a second healer in your group too? Oh, and since you raid you should have no trouble getting items with ward procs. Go get em!

knowing me? do you even know me? if you think im one of those warden like darkenn that think dps is everything then you realy dont have a clue about me i care about doing my job as a healer keeping my grp alive dps isnt impostant...

and most of those little tips as you are worthless, what world do you live in? oh that right you dont pvp outside of Stack grps so you dont have to deal with any of the problem half the other people do. you get into a pvp fight with enough dps the fight doesnt like more then 20 seconds.

BTW: bruiser divide and conquoer effects your entire grp even if your not near that tank, plus the sk myth also has chance to taunt you from across the zone lol...

[Bassman]

Oh Oh, my favorite is killing the tank and being taunt locked to his corpse.  Classic.  Taunts have been around for a long time and yes, everyone has found ways around it, however, with DPS out of control with scouts... and Tanks new durability taunts have increasingly become an eye sour.  Personally I wouldn't touch the taunts, but pretty much everything else about at tank I probably would.

[Cigam]

He isnt crying nerf... just fix it.  (sorry had to say it like everyone else with caster damage LOL)

[Valind]

Look at it this way Vekk. If you nerf taunts by adding an immunity, yes you wont be locked onto tanks, so you'll be able to use your single-target heals more often... but you will NEED to use them constantly because the DPS will no longer be locked onto the tanks, so that big target floating above your head, you know, the white cross on the green background? That big target means you'll be needing those heals for yourself because you'll be the one tanking.

Its a lose-lose situation.

The only way to make it better (IMO) is to reduce the number of tanks playing BGs and the way to do that is to fix the other aspects of tanks. Tanks do too much damage while grouped. They also heal too much (but lets be fair, EVERYONE can heal alot now). You want to ix your taunt problem? nerf tanks, starting with the SKs. less tanks = less taunts.

[Crismorn]

Hopefully when spell dmg is increased alot of the fighters will feel comfortable enough to play their mage again.

Its nice to know that you can get gear, lvls and aa's much faster then the time it takes to actually learn how to play the class you rolled

[Brigh]

AoE avoidance means they have to be targetting you to taunt you.If you're a crusader you can make yourself immune to taunts.

I assume, as usually expected on this forum, that everyone is talking purely T9, and ignoring the little people.

Do you mean signets of ethereal form work?

I certainly know nothing about crusader immunity to taunts, never taking one past T7 on pve or pvp.

[Buttcliffe]

I agree with Vekk on this one.

Certainly, taunts were a great addition to the game.  I agree they made tanks more effective, and able to do their job of protecting their group.

It's true though, without much work, a multi-tank group can effectivelt lock another group, including the healers onto them constantly.

Only thing I can think of that would work well and give best of both worlds at this time would be: Short Immunity to taunt if recently taunted

That would give at least a chance to get some single target heals off, before being taunted again.  Skilled healers like Vekk will be able to deal with that.

I also believe (even though I am a healer) that Banshee Hoop is OP, and needs changing

[Brynhild]

I think priests should get some sort of taunt immunity that's specific to the priest class in general, but to have it immune on the other classes, no way

[Vlahkmaak]

Brynhild wrote:

I think priests should get some sort of taunt immunity that's specific to the priest class in general, but to have it immune on the other classes, no way

I think guardians should get a 100% prevent heal chance so when I attack a healer they cannot heal themselves or anyone in their grp - just my opinion though

[Sapphy]

Brynhild wrote:

I think priests should get some sort of taunt immunity that's specific to the priest class in general, but to have it immune on the other classes, no way

I think a better idea then to give healers a taunt immunity is to give bard or another support class the ability to target someone in group and give them taunt immunity.  This would promote a better group dynamic and strengthen other class roles in pvp, give healers a viable option for dealing with taunts, while still allowing healers to have crucial vulnerabilities when alone or when group members die.  

The problem with pvp atm is that there really needs to be greater balance between classes, in that each class should have the capacity to add an equal benefit to any group on an equal skill level.  We are already placing too much emphasis on the interplay between healers and tanks in a party and group success as a result is being increasingly defined by positions instead of group skill.

[Valind]

Valindor wrote:

The only way to make it better (IMO) is to reduce the number of tanks playing BGs and the way to do that is to fix the other aspects of tanks. Tanks do too much damage while grouped. They also heal too much, but lets be fair, EVERYONE can heal alot now. You want to fix your taunt problem? nerf tanks, starting with the SKs. less tanks = less taunts.

[Brynhild]

You forget one thing.. SK is extremely easy to outheal, they don't do much single target dps and they don't have stifles/stuns etc like berserkers do, and zerkers do a lot more aoe dps and hit harder.   When I'm playing my healer I laugh at SK because I know they can't do anything to me , although I know I can't hurt them either, lol..  Get 2 zerkers in a stacked group then u have a problem.

[Valind]

Brynhild wrote:

You forget one thing.. SK is extremely easy to outheal, they don't do much single target dps and they don't have stifles/stuns etc like berserkers do, and zerkers do a lot more aoe dps and hit harder.   When I'm playing my healer I laugh at SK because I know they can't do anything to me , although I know I can't hurt them either, lol..  Get 2 zerkers in a stacked group then u have a problem.

I'm sorry, are we playing the same game? SKs dont have much single-target DPS? Really? Are we talking T1 or T2 here?

[Brynhild]

Apparently you haven't seen any one actually do  6000 dps on a single target in pvp for 30s straight.  Not a SK alive that can do that, or even close to that, but scouts can, and they can stun,slow, and debuff on top of it.

 SK is a joke for healers, SK hits you, cast one heal you are back at 100, SK hits you, cast one heal u are back at 100, it's easy and there's nothing they can do to stop you other than a couple KBs.   Scout attacks you, you just die when your temps run out and there's nothing you can do about it. BIG difference